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Alessienne Ellecon University of Caille Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2015.08.29 12:34:55 - [1] - Quote The bounty system needs to be thoroughly revamped for a number of reasons: Troll bounties are fine for veterans who can handle having a a few million (or 100) on their heads, but they're upsetting and driving away new players and are just generally annoying. (I'm looking at you, 123456. Thank goodness for the angry snowflake who gave me a decent bounty.) The recent change intended to squash bounty exploits has effectively made the whole system completely useless except for pointlessly harassing people in starter corps. It's a pointless waste of isk. After discussing this with my corpmates, I present the following solution: Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. Replace it with open season on anyone who has a bounty greater than the gross estimated market value of their ship and fit. Allow bounties to pay the full amount, but only allow a player to issue a bounty against someone who has attacked them, attacked their corp's POS or stolen cargo from a container (that would get me a king's ransom on my head before long :P ) outside of a corp war. If the parties' corps are at war, the bounty system will not apply. If multiple parties in a fleet claim a bounty, divide the isk accordingly. Add the option for players to pay off their bounties: the full value to CONCORD, then half again to the aggrieved player/s. I tried to think of everything, but this is EVE and someone will invariably find an exploit.
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 830	Posted - 2015.08.29 12:52:53 - [2] - Quote What's a bounty? I keep losing it every time I log in. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Tupac ice Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2015.08.29 12:55:21 - [3] - Quote So in flying my freighter along... With let's say a 1.5bill ship/fit combo... And inside I have x bill...I jump gate, a bounty of 1.5bil gets placed on me... And I'm targetable by any one... ...pass I agree the bounty system is poor. I would suggest something along the lines of corpses, they get handed in for the relevant bounties with the full amount being load. Then how do we stop people just podding themselves and claiming the bounty... Damn it Who the hell is this Tupac guy.... And what would he know? Anonymous.
Alessienne Ellecon University of Caille Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2015.08.29 12:58:32 - [4] - Quote Tupac ice wrote: So in flying my freighter along... With let's say a 1.5bill ship/fit combo... And inside I have x bill...I jump gate, a bounty of 1.5bil gets placed on me... And I'm targetable by any one... ...pass I agree the bounty system is poor. I would suggest something along the lines of corpses, they get handed in for the relevant bounties with the full amount being load. Then how do we stop people just podding themselves and claiming the bounty... Damn it That's why I specified that you should only be able to put a bounty on someone who has actually wronged you or your corp. Then you actually deserve it, including the open season part.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 24922	Posted - 2015.08.29 13:04:21 - [5] - Quote Bounties are irrelevant, unless you're flying a loot pi+¦ata or already free to shoot at, very few are going to try and claim it. There are people out there with 10's of billion in bounty, people still don't shoot at them. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Alessienne Ellecon University of Caille Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2015.08.29 13:09:24 - [6] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Bounties are irrelevant, unless you're flying a loot pi+¦ata or already free to shoot at, very few are going to try and claim it. There are people out there with 10's of billion in bounty, people still don't shoot at them. Reread my post and you'll understand how the bounty system would be made relevant again.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 24922	Posted - 2015.08.29 13:21:15 - [7] - Quote I read your post, they still wouldn't be made relevant. They've been irrelevant since their introduction despite having been revised. Also Features and Ideas would be a far better place to have posted this Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16975	Posted - 2015.08.29 15:41:40 - [8] - Quote Alessienne Ellecon wrote: The bounty system needs to be thoroughly revamped for a number of reasons: Troll bounties are fine for veterans who can handle having a a few million (or 100) on their heads, but they're upsetting and driving away new players and are just generally annoying. (I'm looking at you, 123456. Thank goodness for the angry snowflake who gave me a decent bounty.) The recent change intended to squash bounty exploits has effectively made the whole system completely useless except for pointlessly harassing people in starter corps. It's a pointless waste of isk. After discussing this with my corpmates, I present the following solution: Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. Replace it with open season on anyone who has a bounty greater than the gross estimated market value of their ship and fit. Allow bounties to pay the full amount, but only allow a player to issue a bounty against someone who has attacked them, attacked their corp's POS or stolen cargo from a container (that would get me a king's ransom on my head before long :P ) outside of a corp war. If the parties' corps are at war, the bounty system will not apply. If multiple parties in a fleet claim a bounty, divide the isk accordingly. Add the option for players to pay off their bounties: the full value to CONCORD, then half again to the aggrieved player/s. I tried to think of everything, but this is EVE and someone will invariably find an exploit. So if you rob my corp hanger of everything in it, I can't put a bounty on you? So if you bump my freighter 200km off the gate so it can be ganked, I can't put a bounty on you? Look man, i'm sorry some silly people get their knickers in a twist because someone put a 100k bounty on them. But "Some random noob doesn't udnerstand that bounties dont equal killrights and freaked out about it" isn't a good reason to add the restrictions you're advocating. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Hellspawn01 Zerg Swarm 0	Posted - 2015.08.29 17:39:34 - [9] - Quote I visited a channel and then found myself with a small bounty on my head. At first I didnt think much about it. Except that my avatar got ruined by a big WANTED sign. Then I lost my pod. A day later I was in the same channel again and pling got the same bounty on me by the same guy. When I asked him why he placed it, I got "no reason" back. I feel my avatar got violated for literally no reason. I doubt we would get any defense against that. At least give us an option to hide the WANTED sign so we can continue to appreciate our avatars in full. Or perhaps make it much smaller. 333 - Only half evil.
Antylus Tyrell Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels 19	Posted - 2015.08.29 17:51:05 - [10] - Quote Bounties mean nothing in a world where everyone is immortal. What is sad is seeing new players not understanding that, and throwing away their hard earned isk in a vain attempt for justice. The current system really should be removed from the game. Since there really is no way of making a system that is both significant and not subject to major abuse.
Hellspawn01 Zerg Swarm 0	Posted - 2015.08.29 17:57:19 - [11] - Quote See the number one player thats sitting at the bounty list? Hes just a trading alt... with 200bil ISK on his head and now serves as a advertising plattform for a twich channel and as a reserve bank. 333 - Only half evil.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16977	Posted - 2015.08.29 18:34:04 - [12] - Quote Antylus Tyrell wrote: Bounties mean nothing in a world where everyone is immortal. What is sad is seeing new players not understanding that, and throwing away their hard earned isk in a vain attempt for justice. The current system really should be removed from the game. Since there really is no way of making a system that is both significant and not subject to major abuse. Man a lot of people enjoy the bounty system. I bountied Mike Azariah at the start of CSM8, and instead of crying about being "violated" like a little baby, he owned it, and now last I looked his bounty is 15B. Aint stopping him from having fun. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Hellspawn01 Zerg Swarm 0	Posted - 2015.08.29 19:15:25 - [13] - Quote Many people enjoyed fitting a cruise missile into a light missile launcher and reload after each shot. Doesnt mean it cant be improved. And it has. 333 - Only half evil.
Malt Zedong WorldTradersGuild.Com 7	Posted - 2015.08.29 19:22:01 - [14] - Quote Anything you do to spare new players of the harsh environment that New Eden is wont make them stay, just will delay their departing. Anyone who are annoyed by bounty, will be since day 1 to the end of days. Anyone who dont care, wont care now, wont care then. WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Kiandoshia Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 2358	Posted - 2015.08.29 19:46:32 - [15] - Quote Combine the killright system and the bounty system. Get rid of sellable killrights.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer 383	Posted - 2015.08.29 20:31:04 - [16] - Quote Tupac ice wrote: So in flying my freighter along... With let's say a 1.5bill ship/fit combo... And inside I have x bill...I jump gate, a bounty of 1.5bil gets placed on me... And I'm targetable by any one... ...pass I agree the bounty system is poor. I would suggest something along the lines of corpses, they get handed in for the relevant bounties with the full amount being load. Then how do we stop people just podding themselves and claiming the bounty... Damn it Honestly the whole becoming available if your bounty is higher than your ship is not a bad way to get rid of the pricks with cheaper ships and makes a higher bounty a worthwhile royal pain in the ass to have on you. It's an extremely creative idea and so long as there is a buffer from immediate bounty placement I would love implementation. The only issue is newbies could be grief'd a whole ton with ship loss after ship loss into rage-quitting, unfortunately even if the whole bounty was payed out on death. Tougher players would probably be fine and would be expected to tough it out like security status or killrights (it could even pseudo replace killright functionality without actual killright removal). Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer 383	Posted - 2015.08.29 20:35:03 - [17] - Quote Malt Zedong wrote: Anything you do to spare new players of the harsh environment that New Eden is wont make them stay, just will delay their departing. Anyone who are annoyed by bounty, will be since day 1 to the end of days. Anyone who dont care, wont care now, wont care then. Giving bounties a combat availability if it's above your ship cost would make people care but put newbies more in the line of being farmable killboard padding. Unfortunately a death payment doesn't work so well when people are immortal. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Malt Zedong WorldTradersGuild.Com 8	Posted - 2015.08.29 20:53:20 - [18] - Quote The finance industry has a tool called risk management. It is used by other industries, but it originated in the TI industry actually, and goes like this: - Information is organized data, so everything that cant be correctly bound by data is not information. Acting upon that as information would be assumption, ergo, risky. You turn it to money and value, chance and outcome, and you can bring it to any kind of analisys. If you make it impossible to cash in on your own demise or property destruction, but you allow that to be when someone else does kill or destroy your property, the only difference is that an alt or friend will do the same thing. There is no reason to change something that cant be prevented just to make it a bit harder but more rewarding. No data is added in the system to justify the hopes of more information coming out of it. Almost everything that is not changed in the game, is based on that, by technique or intuition, devs try to know how effective changing will be before actually changing things. The old immortal thing. Oh paradox. If this is an issue, why botter fighting ? why bother trying to fend people off of places ? why competing ? why doing anything if you have free rookie ships, free base clones, free access to missions giving stuff and money. Why play at all ? That is EVE. We gotta do here what we pose to ourselves as goal, without hoping game mechanics give us reason to play. WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25772	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:00:59 - [19] - Quote Alessienne Ellecon wrote: The bounty system needs to be thoroughly revamped for a number of reasons: Troll bounties are fine for veterans who can handle having a a few million (or 100) on their heads, but they're upsetting and driving away new players and are just generally annoying. (I'm looking at you, 123456. Thank goodness for the angry snowflake who gave me a decent bounty.) The recent change intended to squash bounty exploits has effectively made the whole system completely useless except for pointlessly harassing people in starter corps. It's a pointless waste of isk. None of these reasons seem to have any particular foundation in reality. There's nothing to suggest that it drives people away or make anything annoying; it is far more useful now than it ever was; it does not waste ISK. Quote: Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. Replace it with open season on anyone who has a bounty greater than the gross estimated market value of their ship and fit. Allow bounties to pay the full amount, but only allow a player to issue a bounty against someone who has attacked them, attacked their corp's POS or stolen cargo from a container (that would get me a king's ransom on my head before long :P ) outside of a corp war. If the parties' corps are at war, the bounty system will not apply. If multiple parties in a fleet claim a bounty, divide the isk accordingly. Add the option for players to pay off their bounties: the full value to CONCORD, then half again to the aggrieved player/s. How is that in any way an exploit of the kill right system? If they want to keep a kill right for themselves, then what's it to you, and why would they go through such a needlessly roundabout way of doing it? Bounties are very deliberately something completely separate from aggression mechanics because it would be stupid to have two systems for the same thing, or one system to cover two use cases. Confusing the two is never the right way to go. Allowing bounties to pay the full amount would reintroduce the exploits that made bounties pointless to begin with, and the restrictions for setting bounties make them even more meaningless than ever before. Players must be allowed to set them freely since there is no mechanical way of determining intent that will not be pointless and obtuse. Again, there's a reason why they're completely separate from aggression mechanics: one is mechanical punishment for in-game actions, another is a social punishment for player-to-player interaction. The two cannot serve the same purpose. The only remotely sensible suggestion in your entire post is letting people pay off their bounties, but even then, all you've done is create a pretty silly newbie scamming mechanic. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer 383	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:13:17 - [20] - Quote Inacting aggression mechanics on bounties would make people dislike having them, therefore making them an effective way of paying for someone else misery which I think is what bounties were meant for. Also a reward for their destruction. With a buffer between bounty and vulnerability to keep it from being a (can kill you for "this" much isk) exploit button. It would turn even being in lowsec on bounty into an interesting thing, because like low security status you would be available for anyone to target without gate guns or a security status hit of your own, you would also be rewarded for winning as well. I think it enhances the system. Issue with the mechanics being that way is it makes new-bros easy kills for spending a measly amount of isk. Which is entirely a reason not to connect aggression mechanics to bounties unless there was a non broken workaround for that as well. Just hoping someone can come up with one or a different fix to make bounties more meaningful. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25772	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:16:30 - [21] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Inacting aggression mechanics on bounties would make people dislike having them, therefore making them an effective way of paying for someone else misery which I think is what bounties were meant for. They're not. That's why mixing the two up is a bad thing. They're just there as a reward if the character gets killed for whatever reason, thus acting as an incentive to kill them should the occasion arise. Letting bounties create that occasion would mean they're no longer bounties, but wardecs, and that's a separate mechanic with its own set of restrictions and rules. Quote: It would turn even being in lowsec on bounty into an interesting thing It already is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer 383	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:23:38 - [22] - Quote Tippia wrote: Again, there's a reason why they're completely separate from aggression mechanics: one is mechanical punishment for in-game actions, another is a social punishment for player-to-player interaction. The two cannot serve the same purpose. But a bounties are supposed to be a reason for someone to kill you, and reinforcing it with aggression mechanics without breaking the game more is a great way to make bounty placement worthwhile. Tippia wrote: Players must be allowed to set them freely since there is no mechanical way of determining intent that will not be pointless and obtuse. That's why we've got to figure out a new (good) mechanic if anyone wants bounties to change for the better. CCP hasn't figured out a better way for bounties to work in EVE. I don't think it's a bad idea to try and help so long as they can filter the crap out on their own, and we know they can so lets give them suggestions. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer 383	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:31:16 - [23] - Quote Tippia wrote: They're not. That's why mixing the two up is a bad thing. They're just there as a reward if the character gets killed for whatever reason, thus acting as an incentive to kill them should the occasion arise. Letting bounties create that occasion would mean they're no longer bounties, but wardecs, and that's a separate mechanic with its own set of restrictions and rules. People have said they want more reason for bounties to exist, so connecting the two would be a reason, and wardecs are a way to let your corp and alliance attack a group of people, which we know is in need of fixing. Setting a bounty higher than ships he flies would allow everyone to attack them while in highsec, you can't dec-dodge a bounty. Yes I also know lowsec is already interesting, it would just make this particular person more vulnerable with less penalties for shooting him, more reason for this bounty system to exist. I'm not one for removing features like wardecs to enact a better bounty system though. They aren't the same thing but would be too close under the proposed bounty system. Then yet again there's newbies to conciser. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25772	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:31:21 - [24] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: But a bounties are supposed to be a reason for someone to kill you, and reinforcing it with aggression mechanics without breaking the game more is a great way to make bounty placement worthwhile. That's just it: you can't do it without breaking the game. That's why they're two (actually three) separate systems: one that determines and controls aggression as a general mechanism; one that controls aggression as a result of social dynamics; one that has nothing to do with aggression, and only works as a social marker. You want them to be separate because they do different things. You want the interaction between them to be player-controlled, not mechanically constructed, or it becomes rather pointless to have any of them because otherwise, those three things can no longer give rise to their respective dynamics. If you feel that wardecs don't work as intended, then you must change wardecs, not some unrelated mechanism that serves a completely different and unrelated purpose. Quote: That's why we've got to figure out a new (good) mechanic if anyone wants bounties to change for the better. First you have to answer why there's any need to change them at all. They're a player-controlled system for kill rewards. Why does it have to be anything else? Quote: Then yet again there's newbies to conciser. There's nothing to consider, other than maybe that it's yet another game mechanic they have to learn and understand. That they have to learn it is not a reason to break the game by mixing unrelated mechanisms and making the dynamics even more confusing for them. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Malt Zedong WorldTradersGuild.Com 10	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:32:16 - [25] - Quote Bounties are supposed to be a prize for someone's head. They are not restricted to be for vengeance, pride or anything. If I get up one day and decide I want reward people who kill you, I place a bounty on you. It is more or less like in real life. People go to the local gangs and say there are payment for someone to be wacked. They dont ask why, they dont ask if its fair. They just see if it worths, and do. They just ask for the payment afterwards. You confuse EVE with something that has intrinsec Christian values of false kindness and self righteousness. New Eden is more like the (true, not the american version) buddhist version: You Reap What You Sow, by doing what you do, regardless of your intent in doing. WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer 383	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:33:19 - [26] - Quote Tippia wrote: First you have to answer why there's any need to change them at all. They're a player-controlled system for kill rewards. Why does it have to be anything else? People are asking for it. I'm just trying to see if and how it could work. If it couldn't be abused to kill newbies and the other systems were revamped. Maybe in the future we can reconsider bounties. because removing things and making it all into one removes overall complexity of the game and i'm against that too. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16980	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:44:36 - [27] - Quote Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: But a bounties are supposed to be a reason for someone to kill you, and reinforcing it with aggression mechanics without breaking the game more is a great way to make bounty placement worthwhile. That's just it: you can't do it without breaking the game. That's why they're two (actually three) separate systems: one that determines and controls aggression as a general mechanism; one that controls aggression as a result of social dynamics; one that has nothing to do with aggression, and only works as a social marker. You want them to be separate because they do different things. You want the interaction between them to be player-controlled, not mechanically constructed, or it becomes rather pointless to have any of them because otherwise, those three things can no longer give rise to their respective dynamics. Quote: That's why we've got to figure out a new (good) mechanic if anyone wants bounties to change for the better. First you have to answer why there's any need to change them at all. They're a player-controlled system for kill rewards. Why does it have to be anything else? The only good reason to change them is the intrinsic problem with PvP as a paying career: it's strongly negative sum. If Someone Aggreived wants to pay you, Tippia to inflict harm on me, Malcanis, then you're going to want a lot of ISK to do it, likely far more ISK than the actual net harm you're going to inflict on me. Now given that I suck pretty hard at PvP, we'll assume that if you can catch me, you can kill me. But EVE makes it pretty easy for someone who doesn't want to be caught not to be caught. Let's say it takes you 5 or 6 hours of focused game time to catch up with me. Taking Hi-sec L4 income as the baseline, that means you're going to want 250-360M ISK to even make the effort to get a scram on me, before you even consider the risk of me accidentally shooting back (and the much higher risk of me being with 20-200 friends, but leave that to the side for the moment). In short, you're not going to get out of bed for less than half a bill here. Under the current system that means that I pretty much have to be flying a capital ship. It's kind of a shame that I can't actually fly capital ships, so that will never happen. Now the reason for the restriction is, as I am confident that you are aware, that if I just have an unrestricted 500M bounty on me, I will instantly claim it for myself on an alt. The required reform of the bounty system is therefore to restrict to whom the contract can be accepted by. You will, I am equally confident, not be surprised to learn that I have already thought about this. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer 383	Posted - 2015.08.29 21:49:29 - [28] - Quote Malcanis wrote: The required reform of the bounty system is therefore to restrict to whom the contract can be accepted by. You will, I am equally confident, not be surprised to learn that I have already thought about this. That does get into wardec territory though, which I am pretty sure CCP plans to fix. We can already pay a person to wardec someone and then place a bounty on the corporation as more of an incentive. CCP just needs to fix things like dec-dodging. The topic here is how to improve the bounty system, without undoing other things or breaking something. I didn't even come up with the idea I like the OP did. Problem is newbies would die horribly under that system so again it isn't an easy fix and there will be many ideas that don't work. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25774	Posted - 2015.08.29 22:03:09 - [29] - Quote Malcanis wrote: The only good reason to change them is the intrinsic problem with PvP as a paying career: it's strongly negative sum. [GÇª] The required reform of the bounty system is therefore to restrict to whom the contract can be accepted by. You will, I am equally confident, not be surprised to learn that I have already thought about this. Sure, but my counter to that is that what you're asking for there is really more an extension of the wardec system, letting you target a specific individual for assassination (with appropriate costs). It's something that is arguably missing from the current triad of general, directed, and voluntary aggression, but it is also something that is not really the realm of the bounty system. I think what I'm getting at here is that I don't actually mind if a given mechanic is underused, as long as it serves its purpose. As a general rule, at least unless you're trying to create a tightly focused and controlled game experience (which isn't really what EVE is all about) I feel it is better to let the dynamics evolve as interactions between mechanics rather than trying to hard-code a dynamic in a single game mechanic. If bounties are underused but still provide some accidental reward for killing certain players, then that's fine. They're doing their job, and there's little need or reason to change that. So really, the problem is that we associate the word with an activity that the current mechanics don't allow for, and the fundamental omission there is the GÇ£single-target wardecGÇ¥. Another problem is with the abysmally low granularity in how contracting works in this game. But both of those are better handled by altering (or even adding) the respective mechanism that actually control them at the moment, not warping something unrelated that only happens to have occupied the label. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hengle Teron Order In Disorder Virtus Crusade Protectorate 57261	Posted - 2015.08.29 22:12:13 - [30] - Quote Alessienne Ellecon wrote: Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. . I have no idea why anyone actually thinks this is true. If there are multiple kill rights on your head, the cheapest will be available first. Just because there are plenty of kill right baits out there with a single high cost kill right on them, it doesn't mean they blocked any legit kill right.
Antylus Tyrell Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels 19	Posted - 2015.08.29 22:34:01 - [31] - Quote Just get rid of the bounty system, it means nothing. If people want to pay money to have someone blown up, that is what mercs are for. They can contract a hit with a real person or group rather then wasting their money on a pool that no one pays attention to anyway. Or better yet train themselves up and get the desired revenge themselves. I feel everyday i am explaining to new players and highsec dwellers that bounties are a waste of money.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 127	Posted - 2015.08.29 22:53:59 - [32] - Quote Antylus Tyrell wrote: Just get rid of the bounty system, it means nothing. If people want to pay money to have someone blown up, that is what mercs are for. They can contract a hit with a real person or group rather then wasting their money on a pool that no one pays attention to anyway. Or better yet train themselves up and get the desired revenge themselves. I feel everyday i am explaining to new players and highsec dwellers that bounties are a waste of money. I kind of agree with you. Instead of an in-game system that doesn't really work all that well. Players could fill the gap, maybe even have corps that do bounty hunting.
moep Hedion University Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2015.08.30 00:05:50 - [33] - Quote Op has a point here, bounty systems is a fail at present stage. I would rather go for a solution in this direction: Bounty system proposal 1. Combine bounty with sec status (negative) and maximum limits 2. Step increase of the max. limit from sec status -1.0 to -5,0, as example 50 million per -1.0 up to 200m max limit (amount is a first shot) 3. Bounty still needs to be placed and paid by players, but only possible up to the respective limit in regard to offenders current sec status 4. If you got a bounty on your head you are free to be shot on sight in highsec and lowsec. 5. Keep the 20% payout (or increase a little bit) so that buddy killing is not a major flaw 6. Bounty is auto-reduced with increased sec status, so soldier tags or sec grinding can reduce your bounty (but costs the offender some isk or time as is by today). If reduced the overpaid bounty goes to nevereverland. 7. Ship kill and bounty payout does not influence offenders sec status, so new bounty can be placed if below limit Result: => Only players with negative sec status can have a bounty (like in the old days? I do not remember ) => New players or "good" players are not faced with this system => Bounty hunting is still not a profession worth its isk but more reasonable and not that useless => No real ranking because many players will fly with 200m. Downside for famous bounty collectors , but at least the "Wanted" logo is limited to the "badboy" playerbase and shown on all your player pics, maybe also extended to forum to get some Yarrr-feeling in the community. Kill rights: Make a limit, i don't know 20 mill. Will get people more trigger happy and will increase the hunt, downside no "abuse" as isk-income anymore. PS: Quick shot from my side and needs some deeper rethinking by experts . It's late and maybe there is a loophole in this proposal. Would be interesting to get a first feedback and maybe this could be something for the Features & Ideas forum moepy out PS: zzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25777	Posted - 2015.08.30 00:19:21 - [34] - Quote moep wrote: Would be interesting to get a first feedback and maybe this could be something for the Features & Ideas forum You're effectively returning it to its old state, where it was far more pointless and useless than it currently is. Limits are bad; mechanically-encoded GÇ£moralGÇ¥ is even worse; mixing up bounty and aggression mechanics is as bad is it possibly can be. Disallowing bounties on some arbitrarily structured measure of GÇ£goodGÇ¥ players is downright nonsensical. Your entire idea can essentially be described as GÇ£kill rights and security statusGÇ¥. We already have something that does that GÇö it's called kill rights and security status. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Alessienne Ellecon University of Caille Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2015.08.30 03:59:44 - [35] - Quote Reposting this thread to F&I, staff can lock it at their leisure.
Mike Azariah The Scope Gallente Federation 2968	Posted - 2015.08.30 07:11:30 - [36] - Quote Yes, it scares new folks. Yes, I am in rookie help often enough that I have actually made a mini-lesson about bounties that I cut and paste rather than type each time. I also assure them that if I am not worried then they have no reason to be worried either. Any bounty system that grants the automatic right to shoot in hisec is a gankers dream. See freighter, bounty freighter gank freighter, no concord. Any bounty system that requires a specific trespass against the person laying the bounty blocks punishment of all other infractions such as scamming bumping or just being a general asshat. I agree the bounty system needs repairs or a rethink. But the OP here is not that repair. Oh, and I send thank you notes to people who add to my bounty because I treat it as a show of support. After all, I haven't done enough to **** off most folks so it must be support, right? m Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯\|(pâä)/¯
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Black Legion. 813	Posted - 2015.08.30 07:16:03 - [37] - Quote can anyone point to a freighter pilot with a huge bounty on them? i mean, chribba doesnt even have that much bounty does he? "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1517	Posted - 2015.08.30 07:20:01 - [38] - Quote From what I can tell the only way to really bounty someone is to make a list of conditions for payout, and give isk for said payout to a trusted third party. Its all a big pain in the arse, and probably not worth it at all. Anything else pretty much can be gamed, or won't pay out enough. I think I remember seeing an n billion isk for killing so and so's titan, chribba holds the isk type thread a while ago... no idea if anyone ever claimed it though. @ChainsawPlankto
moep Hedion University Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2015.08.30 08:01:13 - [39] - Quote Tippia wrote: moep wrote: Would be interesting to get a first feedback and maybe this could be something for the Features & Ideas forum You're effectively returning it to its old state, where it was far more pointless and useless than it currently is. Limits are bad; mechanically-encoded GÇ£moralGÇ¥ is even worse; mixing up bounty and aggression mechanics is as bad is it possibly can be. Disallowing bounties on some arbitrarily structured measure of GÇ£goodGÇ¥ players is downright nonsensical. Your entire idea can essentially be described as GÇ£kill rights and security statusGÇ¥. We already have something that does that GÇö it's called kill rights and security status. Well, thank you for the feedback. In general you got the point, it's a mix of the old and new system. From my standpoint: Well i see it a little bit from the roleplaying side (mmorpg ), usually bounties are placed on the "bad guys" (or call them whatever you like, rebels, pirates, freedom warriors ) and not the casual miner running his business or a beginner just started the game 20 mins ago and getting a bounty in the help channel. "In-game" morale plays a role in EVE, i.e. ganking is an in-game crime with retaliation by Concord, the bounty system was usually meant as retaliation method from player side for "bad" behaviour reflected in the sec status. Choosing to be on the pirate side is one part of the fun in EVE and the old bounty system was one method to show it. Now its just random stuff without any meaning. Generally i liked the old system more than the new one from its general idea, payout was of course broken. Quoting your post you do not like the sec status system as mechanically-encoded GÇ£moralGÇ¥ as well. Here i do not agree with your opinion. But maybe it is just a matter of personal taste. Mixing up in-game morale and real-life morale would be nonsensical .
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25786	Posted - 2015.08.30 08:46:09 - [40] - Quote moep wrote: Well i see it a little bit from the roleplaying side (mmorpg ), usually bounties are placed on the "bad guys" (or call them whatever you like, rebels, pirates, freedom warriors ) and not the casual miner running his business or a beginner just started the game 20 mins ago and getting a bounty in the help channel. If you want to take the RP angle, you'd better believe that bounties are placed far more often on GÇ£good guysGÇ¥ since the bad-guys doing so couldn't care one whit about due process, whereas the good guys do. A bounty on someone's head is pretty much the exact opposite of due process. So really, from an RP angle, the exact opposite should be true: you should only be able to bounty positive-status characters. Quote: "In-game" morale plays a role in EVE, i.e. ganking is an in-game crime with retaliation by Concord, the bounty system was usually meant as retaliation method from player side for "bad" behaviour reflected in the sec status. Choosing to be on the pirate side is one part of the fun in EVE and the old bounty system was one method to show it. Now its just random stuff without any meaning. It has far more meaning now than it did before. Now, a large bounty means you've actually pissed a off a fair amount of people. If it's up to the bountied person to make the choice, the choice becomes boring; if it is enforced by some hard-coded moral system, then it is amoral; if it is anything other than a reflection of what other people think of the character in question, it loses all value as a social cue. Last I looked, I had a 4.5bn bounty GÇö essentially for telling carebears that they are sissies. If anything, I wish it would be higher, but I'm already a free gank as it is, so meh. I also have a 5.01 sec status, which I've gained from the same activities that said sissies engage in. That bounty is their retaliation for my being knowledgeable about what they do and therefore not buying their BS reasoning for why those activities need to change. What you are asking for is the removal of this dynamic and of that mode of retaliation. The new system conveys meanings that the old one was incapable of because it actually reflects a social state of affairs, whereas the old one was just some pointless echo of the separate and different, but far more relevant sec status mechanic. Sec status already encodes that GÇ£mechanical moralityGÇ¥ GÇö there's absolutely no need for bounties to do the same. Terminal Insanity wrote: can anyone point to a freighter pilot with a huge bounty on them? I don't fly them that often these days, exactly because my bounty makes a (successful) freighter gank an automatic win for any attacker who comes after me. So yes kind of, but no, not really, but yes it confirms what you're implying? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Skeln Thargensen katana spelunking trips 587	Posted - 2015.08.30 08:57:04 - [41] - Quote it's just turned into a downvote system for annoying spengs in local. (pls don't bounty me) forums. -áserious business.
Alessienne Ellecon University of Caille Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2015.08.30 10:12:40 - [42] - Quote Mike Azariah wrote: Yes, it scares new folks. Yes, I am in rookie help often enough that I have actually made a mini-lesson about bounties that I cut and paste rather than type each time. I also assure them that if I am not worried then they have no reason to be worried either. The fact that you have to do this at all is only a further indictment of the bounty system. Quote: Any bounty system that grants the automatic right to shoot in hisec is a gankers dream. See freighter, bounty freighter gank freighter, no concord. Not much of a difference when you think about it; commercial and corp haulers get ganked all the time in null and suicide ganking is becoming more common in hisec thanks to CODE's extortion racket. Automatic right to shoot simply adds a measure of fairness and logic to the whole thing. Quote: Any bounty system that requires a specific trespass against the person laying the bounty blocks punishment of all other infractions such as scamming bumping or just being a general asshat. Bounty trolling is also an act of asshattery. The exact criteria for allowing a bounty is something that would need much greater examination and debate. I maintain nonetheless that bounties should be reserved for those who have genuinely committed a criminal act against someone, whatever constitutes a criminal act. Quote: I agree the bounty system needs repairs or a rethink. But the OP here is not that repair. If you can come up with anything better, I'm all ears.
Malt Zedong WorldTradersGuild.Com 11	Posted - 2015.08.30 10:29:35 - [43] - Quote New people asks and worries about lots of things because they are new, should we change or remove everything that has to be explained so new people will feel more at ease ? I always make new characters, it is something I like to do for fun. In old times, when the present playerbase of eve was actually built, new characters were just thrown in the grinder, without so much as a nice lone place to practice and automatic explanations about how to play. Today you have tons of staff to help you, tons of automatic tips and warnings. Channels you can go for help, from CCP and otherwise. You have career agents somewhat changed in order to make new people able to learn. If we start going around protecting people from what they will eventually face, they wont learn about it until its too late. WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25786	Posted - 2015.08.30 10:29:38 - [44] - Quote Alessienne Ellecon wrote: The fact that you have to do this at all is only a further indictment of the bounty system. Not really. It's just something that's not covered by the NPE and which new players have to learn at some point. It doesn't particularly say anything about the bounty system GÇö only about the players' lack of research. Quote: Not much of a difference when you think about it; commercial and corp haulers get ganked all the time in null and suicide ganking is becoming more common in hisec thanks to CODE's extortion racket. Automatic right to shoot simply adds a measure of fairness and logic to the whole thing. Eh no. It will only ever add a measure of unfairness. The gankers are already free targets so there will be no difference whatsoever on that end. Instead, it will make it far easier and cheaper to gank people, since you no longer have to worry about compensating for a short kill window by throwing tons of people and DPS on the problem. So the difference is huge, and it only hurts the people you think you're helping. The best-case scenario is one where the change is pointless and the mechanism is never used: i.e. if it was priced high enough that it couldn't be used by ganking, but that would inherently defeat the purpose of having it to begin withGÇª Quote: Bounty trolling is also an act of asshattery. The exact criteria for allowing a bounty is something that would need much greater examination and debate. I maintain nonetheless that bounties should be reserved for those who have genuinely committed a criminal act against someone, whatever constitutes a criminal act. That makes them entirely pointless. What you want is already in the game and there doesn't particularly need to be two things that serve the same purpose. It also removes the only saving grace of bounties: that it is they players who determine what counts as GÇ£criminalGÇ¥ (or, more accurately, GÇ£offensiveGÇ¥) in any given instance. The criminal flagging system handles what happens to people who commit criminal acts against someone. The bounty system should handle what happens when people want to put a bounty on someone. They serve radically different purposes and confusing the two only ever serves to make the system confusing (and open to exploitation). If your idea essentially just duplicates existing mechanics, it has no value and there's no reason to implement it. Quote: If you can come up with anything better, I'm all ears. Leaving it as it is is a better option. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 14846	Posted - 2015.08.30 17:48:54 - [45] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: I think I remember seeing an n billion isk for killing so and so's titan, chribba holds the isk type thread a while ago... no idea if anyone ever claimed it though. It was actually claimed last week Took a long time but finally happened hehe GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Twitter @Chribba

Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 4098	Posted - 2015.08.30 20:31:16 - [46] - Quote Solution: whoever put the bounty(s) decides how much to payout, from zero up to 100%. Has to decide within a fixed time limit, else it's 100%. Also include optional presets (like 0, 20%, 50%, 100%) to avoid having to decide each time. My understanding is that currently it's not 100% for ONE REASON only: to avoid people claiming it by killing themselves in a noobship with their alts. This suggested solution solves the problem in a way that's more fitting to a social MMO: let people investigate and decide on their own if it's a 'legit' and/or 'satisfying' kill for the ISK they spent (e.g. demanding the killmail). \o/ bounties finally become cool. Note: obviously all current bounties would be cancelled before introducing the new system. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Sy Tarn Thallion Outcast Marine SF 3	Posted - 2015.08.30 21:06:35 - [47] - Quote this has already been a timeless debate. I posted an idea for bounty system several months ago and it got "rejected" because i threw a bunch of ideas together. but people took as all the ideas had to be in my idea of the system when that wasn't the case. i threw a bunch of scenarios out and whatever sounded good they could use. honestly ccp needs to pay attention to the debate take ideas from several players and put things together to make it work. everyone liked my 4 first ideas but the rest were crap which is how i felt they were in the beginning but i threw them out there just to cover bases. check it out if you want. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=419420&p=2
Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 281	Posted - 2015.08.31 00:38:35 - [48] - Quote +1 for a new pass on the bounty system. I already contributed to ideas here. Alessienne Ellecon wrote: ... Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. Replace it with open season on anyone who has a bounty greater than the gross estimated market value of their ship and fit. I disagree that kill rights should be removed, and replaced by an open season based on values that can be gamed. kill rights open up possibilities of tricking someone, but they are still a valid system, independently of bounties. Alessienne Ellecon wrote: Allow bounties to pay the full amount, but only allow a player to issue a bounty against someone who has attacked them, attacked their corp's POS or stolen cargo from a container (that would get me a king's ransom on my head before long :P ) outside of a corp war. If the parties' corps are at war, the bounty system will not apply. Placing a bounty based on specific kind of interation seems limited. Many griefing actions do not enter into clear cut identifiable actions. Bounties payment must remain locked to the value of the assets lost, else we go back to worst times. The only limit I would welcome is that older characters cannot place bpunty on younger ones (my suggestions is to do that by calculating life time ISK gain for each pilot, displayong it as an ISK ranking, and only allowing placing bounties on piilots with a higher lifetime ISK gain than ypurself). Alessienne Ellecon wrote: If multiple parties in a fleet claim a bounty, divide the isk accordingly. as far as I know this is already the case.... Alessienne Ellecon wrote: Add the option for players to pay off their bounties: the full value to CONCORD, then half again to the aggrieved player/s. the concepg is good, allow a player to spend a bit more money that his bpunty value to get rid of,it, but I would suggest adding a bounty cost, as a small percentage of the bounty to be paid (bribery) everytime the pilot wants to interact with the game (docking, undocking, sell order, buy order, gate jumping, clone jumps,.industry job, changing ship, anchoring, ),, this amount paid to complete the action would also reduce the bounty value accordingly (may be something like .001% of the bounty, with a minimum of 1ISk, and an option to autompay if money is in the wallet). Bounties must have a negative effect, and not be a bragging value. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. solo? There is a new hope...
Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 281	Posted - 2015.08.31 00:44:57 - [49] - Quote Chribba wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: I think I remember seeing an n billion isk for killing so and so's titan, chribba holds the isk type thread a while ago... no idea if anyone ever claimed it though. It was actually claimed last week Took a long time but finally happened hehe oh!? more details please! Is there is a list of player's placed bounties like that somewhere? especially if you are involved to make sure both side respect a contract, this may be the best bounty system ever... I have heard about the bounty CCP put on Lukas Raholan on the Hillen Tukoss body, and there seem to be one going on for the body of the late Empress Jamyl, but if there are other bounties going on, I'd love to know about them! "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. solo? There is a new hope...
Davis TetrisKing The Vendunari End of Life 112	Posted - 2015.08.31 00:56:33 - [50] - Quote Malcanis wrote: The only good reason to change them is the intrinsic problem with PvP as a paying career: it's strongly negative sum. If Someone Aggreived wants to pay you, Tippia to inflict harm on me, Malcanis, then you're going to want a lot of ISK to do it, likely far more ISK than the actual net harm you're going to inflict on me. Now given that I suck pretty hard at PvP, we'll assume that if you can catch me, you can kill me. But EVE makes it pretty easy for someone who doesn't want to be caught not to be caught. Let's say it takes you 5 or 6 hours of focused game time to catch up with me. Taking Hi-sec L4 income as the baseline, that means you're going to want 250-360M ISK to even make the effort to get a scram on me, before you even consider the risk of me accidentally shooting back (and the much higher risk of me being with 20-200 friends, but leave that to the side for the moment). In short, you're not going to get out of bed for less than half a bill here. ... I'm going to call BS on two points. PvP does not have to be negative sum. Isk/hour is not the only metric to measure things by. Personally I play the game because I enjoy it. I enjoy pvp more than pve. If I can pull a net gain in isk from pvping then it means I can continue to pvp without having to pve. This way I get to have more fun. Isk/hour becomes irrelevant. Bounties actually do help make pvp a paying career. It's nice to get that little bit of bonus isk on top of whatever drops. Sure, you don't get 100% of the value of their ship, that just means you have to have a much higher isk destroyed to isk lost ratio for your pvp. Which is good for the eve economy.
Davis TetrisKing The Vendunari End of Life 112	Posted - 2015.08.31 01:07:26 - [51] - Quote moep wrote: Op has a point here, bounty systems is a fail at present stage. I would rather go for a solution in this direction: Bounty system proposal 1. Combine bounty with sec status (negative) and maximum limits 2. Step increase of the max. limit from sec status -1.0 to -5,0, as example 50 million per -1.0 up to 200m max limit (amount is a first shot) 3. Bounty still needs to be placed and paid by players, but only possible up to the respective limit in regard to offenders current sec status 4. If you got a bounty on your head you are free to be shot on sight in highsec and lowsec. 5. Keep the 20% payout (or increase a little bit) so that buddy killing is not a major flaw 6. Bounty is auto-reduced with increased sec status, so soldier tags or sec grinding can reduce your bounty (but costs the offender some isk or time as is by today). If reduced the overpaid bounty goes to nevereverland. 7. Ship kill and bounty payout does not influence offenders sec status, so new bounty can be placed if below limit Result: => Only players with negative sec status can have a bounty (like in the old days? I do not remember ) => New players or "good" players are not faced with this system => Bounty hunting is still not a profession worth its isk but more reasonable and not that useless => No real ranking because many players will fly with 200m. Downside for famous bounty collectors , but at least the "Wanted" logo is limited to the "badboy" playerbase and shown on all your player pics, maybe also extended to forum to get some Yarrr-feeling in the community. Kill rights: Make a limit, i don't know 20 mill. Will get people more trigger happy and will increase the hunt, downside no "abuse" as isk-income anymore. PS: Quick shot from my side and needs some deeper rethinking by experts . It's late and maybe there is a loophole in this proposal. Would be interesting to get a first feedback and maybe this could be something for the Features & Ideas forum moepy out PS: zzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz Why? Anyone with less than -0.5 sec status is KOS anyway, you can go ahead and shoot them whenever you want, so there's no need to link it to bounties. You can already hunt pirates in HS. Avoid isk caps. Isk means different things to different players. To new players 50 mil isk is a lot. To old players 50mil isk is nothing. You've kept the 20% payout to avoid the system being gamed. Good. This is one of the most important parts of the system. Overall this suggestion does nothing but restrict the bounty system to only pirates and only an irrelevant amount of isk. Might as well leave it as is. Honestly the real answer to claiming bounties is to GET OUT OF HS! In Null you get to ignore aggression mechanics completely, and in LS you can claim the bounty for a sec status hit. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 397	Posted - 2015.09.01 00:55:09 - [52] - Quote Mike Azariah wrote: Any bounty system that grants the automatic right to shoot in hisec is a gankers dream. See freighter, bounty freighter gank freighter, no concord. But the bounty being higher than the ship cost kind of ... Well people would just inject isk into their killboards ;/ Would people repeatedly pay 1 bill to gank a 1 bill freighter without any grudge? I know this is EVE but... Blegh. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1455	Posted - 2015.09.01 01:46:42 - [53] - Quote No player based bounty system will ever work. Some expansion of kill rights (when given the first you can buy extra ones at the time of issue?) might work but could open a serious can of worms with exploit possibilities like you would not believe. A NPC bounty based revenant system may work but it is not very EVE.

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