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Marauders Need a Damage Bonus While Stuck in Bastion

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Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 06:49:01 - [1] - Quote Salutations again everyone. Another idea begin bugging me when I was playing with EFT and started to notice the HUGE damage spike the Dreads get when using Siege II and notice absolutely no damage increase when Marauders use Bastion. Does CCP believes that 1k dps for a bill isk ship while completely immobile is sufficient? Unless you decide of course to glass cannon fit them with polarized weapons (which is completely idiotic) you're gonna see dps in the ranges of 800-900 dps with good tanky fits. The tanky fits helps you survive in PVE environments, not PVP. In pvp situations they have to deal with tons of logi and neut happy Geddons so you need strong dps to break the logi tanks so you can kill the neuters or tacklers and escape. So I propose that CCP add a weapon damage bonus to the Marauders while they're stuck.....umm using Bastion Mode. I'm not proposing a huge damage spike like the Dreads get in Siege, but just a modest 50% weapon damage bonus to Marauders while using Bastion. This will at least give them a chance to kill the logi chain so they'll have a chance to survive at least.
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 116	Posted - 2015.09.03 07:04:29 - [2] - Quote I don't know much about Maras, but the ship has damage bonuses already. I would look at maybe a reduction to neut/vamps while in bastion mode, or tracking increases. The problem with always adding more damage to ships is this - can you even hit was is attacking you. A bastioned Mara, would do well to be able to track a MWD cruiser but have issues with smaller ship hulls - unless fitting sacrifice was made in adding tracking computers/enhancers. xoxo Amarisen Gream
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1914	Posted - 2015.09.03 07:35:39 - [3] - Quote Go watch bike miker and bastionnades and come back and tell me with a straight face that they need help.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1577	Posted - 2015.09.03 07:40:23 - [4] - Quote While the immobility is a significant drawback I'm not sure the gains from bastion leave room for more advantages to be imparted.
Samillian Angry Mustellid The Periphery 950	Posted - 2015.09.03 07:48:34 - [5] - Quote No Marauders really don't need an extra damage bonus, especially as properly fit and used they can solo many level 5s efficiently. What Marauders really need is for Vargurs and Golems not to be the only effective choices in there class. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 07:49:40 - [6] - Quote afkalt wrote: Go watch bike miker and bastionnades and come back and tell me with a straight face that they need help. I did, over and over again. And those vids were made in situations where Marauders were at an advantage due to the element of surpirse. Why? Because how many neuters, and logis were present in bastionnades? And Big Miker only preys on specific targets that he knows like the back of his hands. So in conclusion what you see in those vids are a 1 out of 20 case scenario where the odds are completely in your favor.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 07:54:31 - [7] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: While the immobility is a significant drawback I'm not sure the gains from bastion leave room for more advantages to be imparted. Currently it's a double edged sword that more often leads to the deaths of many helpless Marauder pilots that can't do anything but watch the sigs increase and closing distance to your location at a rapid pace on D-Scan while you're stuck in Bastion.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1914	Posted - 2015.09.03 07:54:37 - [8] - Quote Ok good. So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet. Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter. You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?!
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 08:08:38 - [9] - Quote afkalt wrote: Ok good. So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet. Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter. You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?! Good point. But that's about the same as with a lot other ( much cheaper--ishtars) ships when they are amassed together in fleets. But you just answered your own question. If people start to amass Marauders in fleets then you will start to see an uprising of Dread fleets to counter them and thus giving them an added role as Marauder killers as a bonus. The damage bonus I'm proposing is a very moderate 50% damage increase which will give a 900 dps Paladin 1350 dps and a 1100 dps Kronos 1650 dps when they're in bastion which won't make them OP at all. It wil give them just enough dps to break logi chains when the blobs come to gank them with 10 guardians + 10 T1 cruisers.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1914	Posted - 2015.09.03 08:14:31 - [10] - Quote Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned. It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 08:21:57 - [11] - Quote afkalt wrote: Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned. It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. Just how many Marauders fleets have you seen tearing through New Eden lately? You think this will change if they receive this little damage buff? No, I don't think so. Why? Because they CANNOT receive any logistic support while in bastion and in today's eve fleet meta, it's all about logi.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1915	Posted - 2015.09.03 08:48:27 - [12] - Quote Because they're not cost effective compared to other choices. If you start giving them baby siege that'd change overnight. They already have self rep power of about 5 logis +/- if they want. More if the really dial it up. If you give them the power to blap enemies off field, even in the face of logi, you have created the top of the food chain in subcap dominance. There's no reason to fly anything else again, ever. Null/WH would bomb them, the rest of space is just hosed.
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3779	Posted - 2015.09.03 09:50:03 - [13] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: afkalt wrote: Ok good. So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet. Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter. You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?! Good point. But that's about the same as with a lot other ( much cheaper--ishtars) ships when they are amassed together in fleets. But you just answered your own question. If people start to amass Marauders in fleets then you will start to see an uprising of Dread fleets to counter them and thus giving them an added role as Marauder killers as a bonus. The damage bonus I'm proposing is a very moderate 50% damage increase which will give a 900 dps Paladin 1350 dps and a 1100 dps Kronos 1650 dps when they're in bastion which won't make them OP at all. It wil give them just enough dps to break logi chains when the blobs come to gank them with 10 guardians + 10 T1 cruisers. If twenty guys come for you, with ten logistics ships, why the hell do you think you should be entitled to kills when you're flying solo?
Chihiro Chugakusei Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 61	Posted - 2015.09.03 10:23:46 - [14] - Quote I can see it. 40% damage bonus, but -80% to tracking and explosion velocity. Might want to make an entirely different module for that one though. Keep it up, +1
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2673	Posted - 2015.09.03 10:31:52 - [15] - Quote Nope. CCP rise said the idea behind marauders is uber tank. For dps look at pirate battleships. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 12:01:23 - [16] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: afkalt wrote: Ok good. So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet. Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter. You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?! Good point. But that's about the same as with a lot other ( much cheaper--ishtars) ships when they are amassed together in fleets. But you just answered your own question. If people start to amass Marauders in fleets then you will start to see an uprising of Dread fleets to counter them and thus giving them an added role as Marauder killers as a bonus. The damage bonus I'm proposing is a very moderate 50% damage increase which will give a 900 dps Paladin 1350 dps and a 1100 dps Kronos 1650 dps when they're in bastion which won't make them OP at all. It wil give them just enough dps to break logi chains when the blobs come to gank them with 10 guardians + 10 T1 cruisers. If twenty guys come for you, with ten logistics ships, why the hell do you think you should be entitled to kills when you're flying solo? Goonie, why are you wasting your time ranting in the forums. Get back to mowing your lawns!
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 12:06:05 - [17] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Nope. CCP rise said the idea behind marauders is uber tank. For dps look at pirate battleships. He said that? So they're working as intended?............I should've just trained for Dreads.....
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2167	Posted - 2015.09.03 12:43:19 - [18] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Danika Princip wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: afkalt wrote: Ok good. So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet. Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter. You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?! Good point. But that's about the same as with a lot other ( much cheaper--ishtars) ships when they are amassed together in fleets. But you just answered your own question. If people start to amass Marauders in fleets then you will start to see an uprising of Dread fleets to counter them and thus giving them an added role as Marauder killers as a bonus. The damage bonus I'm proposing is a very moderate 50% damage increase which will give a 900 dps Paladin 1350 dps and a 1100 dps Kronos 1650 dps when they're in bastion which won't make them OP at all. It wil give them just enough dps to break logi chains when the blobs come to gank them with 10 guardians + 10 T1 cruisers. If twenty guys come for you, with ten logistics ships, why the hell do you think you should be entitled to kills when you're flying solo? Goonie, why are you wasting your time ranting in the forums. Get back to mowing your lawns! Traduction : I didn't think of how stupid my request was and got caught with my pants down so I must now turn to attack to a player's corp/alliance tag to counter him/her. How about you answer the question instead of trying to dismiss it?
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.03 12:51:13 - [19] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Danika Princip wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: afkalt wrote: Ok good. So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet. Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter. You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?! Good point. But that's about the same as with a lot other ( much cheaper--ishtars) ships when they are amassed together in fleets. But you just answered your own question. If people start to amass Marauders in fleets then you will start to see an uprising of Dread fleets to counter them and thus giving them an added role as Marauder killers as a bonus. The damage bonus I'm proposing is a very moderate 50% damage increase which will give a 900 dps Paladin 1350 dps and a 1100 dps Kronos 1650 dps when they're in bastion which won't make them OP at all. It wil give them just enough dps to break logi chains when the blobs come to gank them with 10 guardians + 10 T1 cruisers. If twenty guys come for you, with ten logistics ships, why the hell do you think you should be entitled to kills when you're flying solo? Goonie, why are you wasting your time ranting in the forums. Get back to mowing your lawns! Traduction : I didn't think of how stupid my request was and got caught with my pants down so I must now turn to attack to a player's corp/alliance tag to counter him/her. How about you answer the question instead of trying to dismiss it? I would but that particular Goonie is well known for trolling, so why should I respond when all the Goonie is gonna do is contest with another troller.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 211	Posted - 2015.09.03 13:01:53 - [20] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: I would but that particular Goonie is well known for trolling, so why should I respond when all the Goonie is gonna do is contest with another troller. Yes but you should contest. Whomever does the most trolling in the site/thread wins the contest and the LP payout, as best as I understand it. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 2389	Posted - 2015.09.03 13:09:30 - [21] - Quote Comparing Marauders to Dreadnaughts is inherently flawed. Capital weapons are specifically balanced around needing to have a Siege Module running (or be fit on a Titan) in order to be effective; without it, a Dreadnaught will do Battleship-level DPS, or less, with absolutely abysmal application. Hardly what one would consider ideal. Battleships weapons, on the other hand, are not balanced around needing a Bastion Module in order to be effective. Adding damage bonus to the Bastion Module would imbalance Marauders relative to other battleships. Now, the other thing about Dreadnaughts is that they get a limited number of weapons, much like Marauders, but they get no special hull bonuses to make up for this shortcoming. That's part of what the Siege Module does. If you want to add a Siege Module-like damage bonus to the Bastion Module, you'd first need to remove the 100% weapon damage bonus that each Marauder hull gets in order to maintain consistency. Are you really willing to make Marauders as useless out of Bastion as Dreads are out of Siege? I'm certainly not. I still do level 4s on occasion, and my preferred ship is a Null Blaster Kronos. I have never wanted for DPS (still over 800 at 40km, with blaster tracking), even in a reasonably tanky, non-bling fit. I'd say that Marauders are in a really good place right now and certainly don't need any buffs. Relatively Notorious By Association My Many Misadventures A brief history of C&P Thunderdome
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1430	Posted - 2015.09.03 13:25:59 - [22] - Quote +1 for op'ing the fck out of marauders EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2167	Posted - 2015.09.03 14:11:34 - [23] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: I would but that particular Goonie is well known for trolling, so why should I respond when all the Goonie is gonna do is contest with another troller. Now that your GRRRing is done, can you answer the question? What makes you believe you deserve to get kills when solo if the opposition is supported by multiple logi?
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 758	Posted - 2015.09.03 14:31:39 - [24] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: I would but that particular Goonie is well known for trolling, so why should I respond when all the Goonie is gonna do is contest with another troller. Now that your GRRRing is done, can you answer the question? What makes you believe you deserve to get kills when solo if the opposition is supported by multiple logi? Because they paid a billion + isk.....that means it must be uber against all to some for some odd reason. Abd becuase a dread would survive and prosper in this situation, at least in their mind. Lone dread getting gang banged, siege or no siege its dying. Best it can hope for is no dic's on call and that it gets that one lucky break not tackled at end of cycle to gtfo. Attackers bored enough.....the fuel is gonna run out at some point. No siege for you at that point. Smarter attackers may just nos/neut refit fast and drain its ass and pop goes the weasel.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2674	Posted - 2015.09.03 15:26:06 - [25] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Nope. CCP rise said the idea behind marauders is uber tank. For dps look at pirate battleships. He said that? So they're working as intended?............I should've just trained for Dreads..... Forgive me it was CCP Ytterbium Quote: This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 123	Posted - 2015.09.03 17:12:03 - [26] - Quote You know what I want to see for Marauder? one more skill add to requirement for Bastion, by make it require to have Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration level 1 to use T1 Then introduce T2 Bastion that give 35% more on each stats (40% resist, 135% shield/armor amount, 33.75% to range) with requirement of Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration 5. (If balance issue, may make it so T2 is required to consume fuel while T1 don't)
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2170	Posted - 2015.09.03 17:18:42 - [27] - Quote unidenify wrote: You know what I want to see for Marauder? one more skill add to requirement for Bastion, by make it require to have Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration level 1 to use T1 Then introduce T2 Bastion that give 35% more on each stats (40% resist, 135% shield/armor amount, 33.75% to range) with requirement of Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration 5. (If balance issue, may make it so T2 is required to consume fuel while T1 don't) Fun fact, they didn't put the requirement of tactical weapon reconfiguration because the way the skill is made, you would literally spawn stront in your hold. CCP Ytterbium wrote: The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 123	Posted - 2015.09.03 17:27:15 - [28] - Quote yes I remember this talk, then they decide on one of science skill which I immediate train to 5 before its release. they decide to drop it go figure. I kindly want to see T2 bastion but need to have slight higher skill requirement than T1. just like other T1/T2 modules
xttz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 666	Posted - 2015.09.03 18:05:00 - [29] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: just a modest 50% weapon damage bonus to Marauders while using Bastion. But the turret Marauders already get a damage bonus... they get +25% to optimal range / falloff. That means you can shoot the same distance you could before while using a higher damage, shorter ranged ammo. You also get the _huge_ immunity to ECM, damps and tracking disruption, which is a pretty major offensive buff. Just because it's not a damage multiplier doesn't mean it's not a damage bonus.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 2391	Posted - 2015.09.03 18:13:29 - [30] - Quote xttz wrote: Just because it's not a damage multiplier doesn't mean it's not a damage bonus. Bonuses to application or endurance are damage bonuses, they're just not as obvious in EFT. Relatively Notorious By Association My Many Misadventures A brief history of C&P Thunderdome
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2607	Posted - 2015.09.03 18:16:44 - [31] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Salutations again everyone. Another idea begin bugging me when I was playing with EFT and started to notice the HUGE damage spike the Dreads It's not a dreadnought. I stopped reading that far in. Sorry. edit: tracking Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Arthur Aihaken Chig 4622	Posted - 2015.09.03 18:35:53 - [32] - Quote It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1682	Posted - 2015.09.03 19:00:51 - [33] - Quote Working as intended. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 123	Posted - 2015.09.03 20:52:58 - [34] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships. strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill. Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon *assume all have same number of BCS In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target. What Marauder should have is Strong Tank Excellent application For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1576	Posted - 2015.09.03 20:54:21 - [35] - Quote Samillian wrote: No Marauders really don't need an extra damage bonus, especially as properly fit and used they can solo many level 5s efficiently. What Marauders really need is for Vargurs and Golems not to be the only effective choices in there class. funny, the vargur and golem are the two marauders I don't usually fly. @ChainsawPlankto
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 342	Posted - 2015.09.04 00:27:23 - [36] - Quote afkalt wrote: Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned. It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.04 01:30:32 - [37] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Comparing Marauders to Dreadnaughts is inherently flawed. Capital weapons are specifically balanced around needing to have a Siege Module running (or be fit on a Titan) in order to be effective; without it, a Dreadnaught will do Battleship-level DPS, or less, with absolutely abysmal application. Hardly what one would consider ideal. Battleships weapons, on the other hand, are not balanced around needing a Bastion Module in order to be effective. Adding damage bonus to the Bastion Module would imbalance Marauders relative to other battleships. Now, the other thing about Dreadnaughts is that they get a limited number of weapons, much like Marauders, but they get no special hull bonuses to make up for this shortcoming. That's part of what the Siege Module does. If you want to add a Siege Module-like damage bonus to the Bastion Module, you'd first need to remove the 100% weapon damage bonus that each Marauder hull gets in order to maintain consistency. Are you really willing to make Marauders as useless out of Bastion as Dreads are out of Siege? I'm certainly not. I still do level 4s on occasion, and my preferred ship is a Null Blaster Kronos. I have never wanted for DPS (still over 800 at 40km, with blaster tracking), even in a reasonably tanky, non-bling fit. I'd say that Marauders are in a really good place right now and certainly don't need any buffs. I see and thank you for the non-provocative response. It was very constructive and convincing. I'll start to look more closely at Dreads now.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.04 01:51:57 - [38] - Quote unidenify wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships. strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill. Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon *assume all have same number of BCS In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target. What Marauder should have is Strong Tank Excellent application For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS. In this case, I'd like to follow up on your T2 Bastion idea and give the Marauders some cap warfare resistance so they can actually use their tanks longer than one bastion cycle when under heavy neut pressure.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.04 02:04:30 - [39] - Quote Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned. It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that. Very good point, sir. I haven't even considered that fact since everytime I'm in Apanake I see a Marauder undock every 30 seconds or so.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 2403	Posted - 2015.09.04 02:14:34 - [40] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: I see and thank you for the non-provocative response. It was very constructive and convincing. I'll start to look more closely at Dreads now. Any time. I don't often troll, but when I do, I limit it to C&P. Relatively Notorious By Association My Many Misadventures A brief history of C&P Thunderdome
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2443	Posted - 2015.09.04 03:09:13 - [41] - Quote What Marauders actually need is to be better outside of Bastion. Of course so do BS in general.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2174	Posted - 2015.09.04 03:23:43 - [42] - Quote Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned. It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that. Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2443	Posted - 2015.09.04 04:17:31 - [43] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho? Most experienced combat pilots aren't that far off Marauders. There are three reasons you see 100 man tengu fleets and not 100 man Vulture or Golem fleets. 1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types. 2. Tengu's are OP. Being both Cruisers and OP in the age of cruisers makes them doubly OP. 3. Tengu's have been OP for years meaning people have had plenty of time to train into them. Marauders and CS are both recently decent, and I'll remind people that there is at least 1 low sec fleet already running a CS Doctrine.
Barrogh Habalu Forever Winter Absolute Zero. 1051	Posted - 2015.09.04 06:05:44 - [44] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: 1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types. What do you mean? I would like to point out that if you count out core skills to 5 as "obligatory" for every ship in the game (and assume you have them before sitting in anything not T1), then fleet T3Cs are easier to train into than HACs. Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 126	Posted - 2015.09.04 07:04:20 - [45] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: unidenify wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships. strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill. Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon *assume all have same number of BCS In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target. What Marauder should have is Strong Tank Excellent application For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS. In this case, I'd like to follow up on your T2 Bastion idea and give the Marauders some cap warfare resistance so they can actually use their tanks longer than one bastion cycle when under heavy neut pressure. I am admiting that I like to see some form of cap warfare resistance, but issue is balance. Plus, there is modules that help with cap warfare resistance. (capacitor battery).
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 343	Posted - 2015.09.04 21:00:57 - [46] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho? Most experienced combat pilots aren't that far off Marauders. There are three reasons you see 100 man tengu fleets and not 100 man Vulture or Golem fleets. 1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types. 2. Tengu's are OP. Being both Cruisers and OP in the age of cruisers makes them doubly OP. 3. Tengu's have been OP for years meaning people have had plenty of time to train into them. Marauders and CS are both recently decent, and I'll remind people that there is at least 1 low sec fleet already running a CS Doctrine. Ever since the T3 subsystem nerf to 5%/level, Vultures have more DPS, more EHP, greater range, and the ability to fit a MMJD. They're cheaper and don't cause SP loss when killed. The only reason to fly a Tengu fleet over a Vulture fleet is SP.
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 436	Posted - 2015.09.04 22:14:29 - [47] - Quote Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough.... Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough So I say no.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1925	Posted - 2015.09.04 22:44:36 - [48] - Quote Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned. It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that. So? Like we (at least those who can't) wouldn't dive into these asap. SP balancing is worse than isk balancing and that got us into a SUPER mess. Pun intended.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3071	Posted - 2015.09.04 23:39:56 - [49] - Quote Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned. It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy. The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not. The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that. Looks at the number of Ishtar pilots before the HAC balance pass, looks at the number of Ishtar pilots now. I don't think balancing around SP is a valid tactic for making something OP. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 761	Posted - 2015.09.05 00:43:22 - [50] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: What Marauders actually need is to be better outside of Bastion. Of course so do BS in general. Gonna say this. I was on the fence about BS flight (learned to hate it over a year of almost straight bash ops). Something about BS i didn't like really. Had this feeling for years tbh. This was even before all the balance repasses that spawned all the meta's that had BS' fall into disfavor. Been giving a kronos a go of late and going now this, this I could like. When in bastion. This a kronos...it and paladin by and large fight to not be least favored marauder in general. Hell when looking for a pve fit I found some eventually to serve as a base to my fit. Invariably in the threads was the obligatory...."....but you may want to try vargur instead" post.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.09.05 02:46:29 - [51] - Quote Celthric Kanerian wrote: Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough.... Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough So I say no. Your objective is late and I don't care anymore cause I'm going into Dreads. Bastion is fail!
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 918	Posted - 2015.09.05 04:05:19 - [52] - Quote As a Marauder pilot myself, I'm going to have to say that more dps and/or cap resistance would be OP. However, I do agree that Marauders need to be balanced without Bastion, but only in a manner to make them more fleet viable, thus encouraging the use of Bastion when solo. Otherwise, no one will use Bastion. My suggestion 1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore. 2) Make their local rep bonus also apply to received remote reps. The is counter balanced by their HP which is natively lower than that of other BS hulls, thus further encouraging no bastion in fleets and using bastion when solo.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 761	Posted - 2015.09.05 04:58:55 - [53] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: 1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore. This I'd see no issue with this. Was never really sure why CCP had in place so in the first place. Its not like in pvp fc's beg for Non bonused ecm ships to pack em just in case of kronos rush. It be a bonused ecm boat that jams, well, everything damn good if skills and mods there and RNG is loving them that day. Looking back before bastion....PVe wise well this was why I have/had tengu. I have its sensor strength pegged to where the only time I get jammed is rare as hell. Its RNG rolling that hard as hell number on d100 (or 2 d10's...pen and peer game geek in the past here lol). It has always been my gurista mission runner if giving anything else a go at the time. Kinetic bonus and weak kinetic resists of rats and all to add to the fun.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 918	Posted - 2015.09.05 05:33:01 - [54] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: 1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore. This I'd see no issue with this. Was never really sure why CCP had in place so in the first place. Its not like in pvp fc's beg for Non bonused ecm ships to pack em just in case of kronos rush. It be a bonused ecm boat that jams, well, everything damn good if skills and mods there and RNG is loving them that day. Looking back before bastion....PVe wise well this was why I have/had tengu. I have its sensor strength pegged to where the only time I get jammed is rare as hell. Its RNG rolling that hard as hell number on d100 (or 2 d10's...pen and peer game geek in the past here lol). It has always been my gurista mission runner if giving anything else a go at the time. Kinetic bonus and weak kinetic resists of rats and all to add to the fun. When Marauders were first introduced, they were powerhouses and no sub cap could compare. However, CCP introduced them specifically as PVE boats and gave them low sensor strength and massive wigs to keep them out of PVP. However, this made them less effective than T1s in PVE, thus the status quo remained that way until T3Cs were introduced and Pirate hulls were made more powerful. Then, you finally had something more powerful than a t1 at PVE. While I do like Bastion, it was nothing more than a bandaid to cover the gaping cavity that is the weakness of the Marauders.
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 437	Posted - 2015.09.07 21:06:37 - [55] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Celthric Kanerian wrote: Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough.... Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough So I say no. Your objective is late and I don't care anymore cause I'm going into Dreads. Bastion is fail! The only fail thing about this entire thread is your foolish belief in what Marauders should be.
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 128	Posted - 2015.09.07 23:51:29 - [56] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: As a Marauder pilot myself, I'm going to have to say that more dps and/or cap resistance would be OP. However, I do agree that Marauders need to be balanced without Bastion, but only in a manner to make them more fleet viable, thus encouraging the use of Bastion when solo. Otherwise, no one will use Bastion. My suggestion 1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore. 2) Make their local rep bonus also apply to received remote reps. The is counter balanced by their HP which is natively lower than that of other BS hulls, thus further encouraging no bastion in fleets and using bastion when solo. I do like this idea I remember someone suggest that Bastion also increase Sensor strength in purpose to make it difficult to probe down
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 600	Posted - 2015.09.08 05:24:43 - [57] - Quote They're built for strong local tanks and for weapons projection. This makes them really only useful in the small gang fighting, but virtually a deathtrap in encounters with larger groups. Raw DPS is the Pirate ships' expertise. CCP already made the mistake of trying to force a non-PvP oriented ship class into PvP, fortunately for them it did not ruin there ability in their historical role and in fact somehow improved it in many ways. They will always be very niche in PvP. This does not make them weak, just very niche. They don't need that kind of help. "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Zapp McDouche Black Spot on Parchment 0	Posted - 2015.09.08 09:12:10 - [58] - Quote The only thing marauders need is a small increase in cargo bay size and a tiny upgrade in cpu and power grid. Bigger drone bay would been bad ass but it might make them overpowered.
RcTamiya SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart. 6	Posted - 2015.09.08 09:15:26 - [59] - Quote Zapp McDouche wrote: The only thing marauders need is a small increase in cargo bay size and a tiny upgrade in cpu and power grid. Bigger drone bay would been bad ass but it might make them overpowered. slightly better cap recharge, so it gets them equally balanced on each other too
Thron Legacy White Zulu Scorpion Federation 5	Posted - 2015.09.09 15:19:47 - [60] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: very moderate 50% damage increase I dont even
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 460	Posted - 2015.09.09 15:59:36 - [61] - Quote And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. The Law is a point of View
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 923	Posted - 2015.09.09 21:16:20 - [62] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. This essentially... However, my concern is not with Marauders in Bastion, but rather, Marauders out of bastion. There's generally no reason to use a marauder without Bastion, which makes marauders useless for fleets and with mobile fits. I think Bastion is fine as is, but these ships need something to make them viable out of bastion. Bastion will always be preferred for solo pvp and PVE due to tank bonus, range bonus, and ewar immunity.
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 129	Posted - 2015.09.09 22:51:31 - [63] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Kenrailae wrote: And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. This essentially... However, my concern is not with Marauders in Bastion, but rather, Marauders out of bastion. There's generally no reason to use a marauder without Bastion, which makes marauders useless for fleets and with mobile fits. I think Bastion is fine as is, but these ships need something to make them viable out of bastion. Bastion will always be preferred for solo pvp and PVE due to tank bonus, range bonus, and ewar immunity. Would have bonus toward Defensive Ewar would help? Tracking Disruptor for Paladin, Sensor Damp for Krono, ECM for Golem, and Web range for Vargur? if necessary, may have bastion reduce their effective by % so it is only useful for out of bastion
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 923	Posted - 2015.09.10 00:36:36 - [64] - Quote unidenify wrote: [quote=Joe Risalo] Would have bonus toward Defensive Ewar would help? Tracking Disruptor for Paladin, Sensor Damp for Krono, ECM for Golem, and Web range for Vargur? if necessary, may have bastion reduce their effective by % during active so it is only useful for out of bastion No, that's a bad idea. Only thing Marauders need is increased sensor strength and MAYBE scan res. As far as sensor strength, Balance it to that of other battleships. Edit... Although, I would like to see their standard ship rep bonus applied to received remote reps. It would be a very nice bonus when out of bastion, that once again, still makes bastion viable when solo.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.09.10 06:38:42 - [65] - Quote Sobaan Tali wrote: They're built for strong local tanks and for weapons projection. This makes them really only useful in the small gang fighting, but virtually a deathtrap in encounters with larger groups. Raw DPS is the Pirate ships' expertise. CCP already made the mistake of trying to force a non-PvP oriented ship class into PvP, fortunately for them it did not ruin there ability in their historical role and in fact somehow improved it in many ways. They will always be very niche in PvP. This does not make them weak, just very niche. They don't need that kind of help. Sensor strength is, in opinion, a far better goal to improving things for them without making them too powerful. Though, they do need to be especially weak to capacitor warfare, I feel. I disagree, I finally get that they aren't meant to be heavy damage dealers but at least give them a means of survival against the most OP & very common cap warfare that every small gang will include (along with logi) in their little raiding parties. Bastions needs a -50% Resistance against enemy Neutralization/Vampire effects. Also a reduction in Bastion cycle duration down to 30 secs would also be a necessity. But perhaps these features should be incorporated in Bastion Module II that also would require Marauders V to use.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.09.10 06:49:31 - [66] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. Please, you must live in HI-sec. In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.09.10 06:58:46 - [67] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: unidenify wrote: [quote=Joe Risalo] Would have bonus toward Defensive Ewar would help? Tracking Disruptor for Paladin, Sensor Damp for Krono, ECM for Golem, and Web range for Vargur? if necessary, may have bastion reduce their effective by % during active so it is only useful for out of bastion No, that's a bad idea. Only thing Marauders need is increased sensor strength and MAYBE scan res. As far as sensor strength, Balance it to that of other battleships. Edit... Although, I would like to see their standard ship rep bonus applied to received remote reps. It would be a very nice bonus when out of bastion, that once again, still makes bastion viable when solo. You want Marauders to be fleet viable? I think not. There are too many fleet oriented ships in eve as is. Marauders stand out by having it's own niche as a solo PVE boat. If used in fleets then the next thing you know multiple Marauder doctrines would rise and the forums would bleed to death about how OP they are.
Anthar Thebess 1300	Posted - 2015.09.10 07:19:39 - [68] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Salutations again everyone. Another idea begin bugging me when I was playing with EFT and started to notice the HUGE damage spike the Dreads get when using Siege II and notice absolutely no damage increase when Marauders use Bastion. Does CCP believes that 1k dps for a bill isk ship while completely immobile is sufficient? Unless you decide of course to glass cannon fit them with polarized weapons (which is completely idiotic) you're gonna see dps in the ranges of 800-900 dps with good tanky fits. The tanky fits helps you survive in PVE environments, not PVP. In pvp situations they have to deal with tons of logi and neut happy Geddons so you need strong dps to break the logi tanks so you can kill the neuters or tacklers and escape. So I propose that CCP add a weapon damage bonus to the Marauders while they're stuck.....umm using Bastion Mode. I'm not proposing a huge damage spike like the Dreads get in Siege, but just a modest 50% weapon damage bonus to Marauders while using Bastion. This will at least give them a chance to kill the logi chain so they'll have a chance to survive at least. Siege : https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Siege_Module_I Bastion https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Bastion_Module_I 2 different modules, for 2 different ship classes - why are you even comparing them ? Marauders are way OP for higsec PVE , why make them even stronger. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.09.10 08:19:42 - [69] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Salutations again everyone. Another idea begin bugging me when I was playing with EFT and started to notice the HUGE damage spike the Dreads get when using Siege II and notice absolutely no damage increase when Marauders use Bastion. Does CCP believes that 1k dps for a bill isk ship while completely immobile is sufficient? Unless you decide of course to glass cannon fit them with polarized weapons (which is completely idiotic) you're gonna see dps in the ranges of 800-900 dps with good tanky fits. The tanky fits helps you survive in PVE environments, not PVP. In pvp situations they have to deal with tons of logi and neut happy Geddons so you need strong dps to break the logi tanks so you can kill the neuters or tacklers and escape. So I propose that CCP add a weapon damage bonus to the Marauders while they're stuck.....umm using Bastion Mode. I'm not proposing a huge damage spike like the Dreads get in Siege, but just a modest 50% weapon damage bonus to Marauders while using Bastion. This will at least give them a chance to kill the logi chain so they'll have a chance to survive at least. Siege : https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Siege_Module_I Bastion https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Bastion_Module_I 2 different modules, for 2 different ship classes - why are you even comparing them ? Marauders are way OP for higsec PVE , why make them even stronger. Who said anything about using them for high sec PVE?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1963	Posted - 2015.09.10 08:38:12 - [70] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Kenrailae wrote: And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. Please, you must live in HI-sec. In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers. 5 bonused neuters and probably 6 thousand incoming DPS....yeah, I can't imagine why anything should die to that when its alone Seriously, read what you just wrote - one ship vs FIFTEEN T2/T3 ships and you're not happy it'll lose? I go back to my original post : you are asking for - and will not get - a one man wtfomgbbqownzonepwnmobile.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.09.10 08:59:48 - [71] - Quote afkalt wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Kenrailae wrote: And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. Please, you must live in HI-sec. In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers. 5 bonused neuters and probably 6 thousand incoming DPS....yeah, I can't imagine why anything should die to that when its alone Seriously, read what you just wrote - one ship vs FIFTEEN T2/T3 ships and you're not happy it'll lose? I go back to my original post : you are asking for - and will not get - a one man wtfomgbbqownzonepwnmobile. Yea your right, I should've been more realistic. 3 Sentinels, 2 Svipuls, and 2 Hecates is all it would take to murder any Marauder pilot.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1963	Posted - 2015.09.10 09:15:45 - [72] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: afkalt wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Kenrailae wrote: And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. Please, you must live in HI-sec. In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers. 5 bonused neuters and probably 6 thousand incoming DPS....yeah, I can't imagine why anything should die to that when its alone Seriously, read what you just wrote - one ship vs FIFTEEN T2/T3 ships and you're not happy it'll lose? I go back to my original post : you are asking for - and will not get - a one man wtfomgbbqownzonepwnmobile. Yea your right, I should've been more realistic. 3 Sentinels, 2 Svipuls, and 2 Hecates is all it would take to murder any Marauder pilot. A golem actually has good odds of winning that fight, if correctly fit. Honestly, the fact that's even possible is a bit shady. They shouldn't be able to smash 7 other guys off field alone.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.09.10 14:48:59 - [73] - Quote afkalt wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: afkalt wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Kenrailae wrote: And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. Please, you must live in HI-sec. In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers. 5 bonused neuters and probably 6 thousand incoming DPS....yeah, I can't imagine why anything should die to that when its alone Seriously, read what you just wrote - one ship vs FIFTEEN T2/T3 ships and you're not happy it'll lose? I go back to my original post : you are asking for - and will not get - a one man wtfomgbbqownzonepwnmobile. Yea your right, I should've been more realistic. 3 Sentinels, 2 Svipuls, and 2 Hecates is all it would take to murder any Marauder pilot. A golem actually has good odds of winning that fight, if correctly fit. Honestly, the fact that's even possible is a bit shady. They shouldn't be able to smash 7 other guys off field alone. Marauders are suppose to be the most powerful sub-caps in the game, so it they can't kill 8 small sigs then something is wrong. The damage bonus I proposed was an error due to my misinterpretation of their roles. But I seriously believe that Bastion should be given a bonus to help against cap warfare. That or give the Marauders a better base cap recharge. Also the bastion cycle is too long and should be reduce to 30 secs. Again I think they should incorporate those features into a Bastion Module II with a higher skill requirement.
Solarus Explorer The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate 6	Posted - 2015.09.10 15:36:43 - [74] - Quote Suggestion: How about a high slot module that prevents the target from receiving any remote assistance?..... like reps and cap....
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 777	Posted - 2015.09.10 19:47:45 - [75] - Quote At first I liked the idea then i remembered what this would do to highsec incursions. Do not want. They are farmed too much already. EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 923	Posted - 2015.09.10 20:00:36 - [76] - Quote Arya Regnar wrote: At first I liked the idea then i remembered what this would do to highsec incursions. Do not want. They are farmed too much already. If you're speaking of the Damage buff, it would not apply to an incursion. Marauders cannot receive remote assistance while in Bastion, thus drawing aggro in an incursion would mean you get volleyed off the field due to no reps. Note, you get neuted in incursions as well.
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 234	Posted - 2015.09.10 20:41:35 - [77] - Quote afkalt wrote: Ok good. So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet. Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter. You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?! That's kinda normal... have you seen their cost? Mine cost more than a fully fitted dread or even a fully fitted and moderately pimped carrier... They do lack damage, i get about 1000dps out of my golem. Sure the tank is absurd... but that's what its suppose to do... tank a lot. Been around since the beginning.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1968	Posted - 2015.09.10 21:48:42 - [78] - Quote d0cTeR9 wrote: afkalt wrote: Ok good. So sure, if there were logi or neuts then they have trouble. Of course you need to remember that is one marauder versus a fleet. Now imagine half a dozen, a dozen....they'd be utterly unstoppable. Literally nothing, short of perhaps blap dreads, is going to scale like they would to counter. You'd have ships on field with what, 10k DPS local tanks, already upwards of 1k DPS - how high do you want it?! That's kinda normal... have you seen their cost? Mine cost more than a fully fitted dread or even a fully fitted and moderately pimped carrier... They do lack damage, i get about 1000dps out of my golem. Sure the tank is absurd... but that's what its suppose to do... tank a lot. Cost is not a reason to make a ship obsolete all others though, is it?
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 466	Posted - 2015.09.10 22:50:27 - [79] - Quote In their place, Marauders are monsters. From a PVE standpoint(which we tend to forget alot) they are massively OP. Against small groups of ships who aren't prepared for them, or in small groups, marauders can smash small fleets. Sure they 'only do 1000DPS,' but unlike a 1400 DPS vindicator who misses half the time, marauders put that dps on target exceedingly reliably, and don't have to worry about ewar. Because people don't use the right or get countered isn't a reason to take something that is already very capable and make it impossibly OP. If anything I'd like to see them a larger cargo bay, since they're not having to use that space for weapons systems. The Law is a point of View
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 923	Posted - 2015.09.10 23:41:53 - [80] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: In their place, Marauders are monsters. From a PVE standpoint(which we tend to forget alot) they are massively OP. Against small groups of ships who aren't prepared for them, or in small groups, marauders can smash small fleets. Sure they 'only do 1000DPS,' but unlike a 1400 DPS vindicator who misses half the time, marauders put that dps on target exceedingly reliably, and don't have to worry about ewar. Because people don't use the right or get countered isn't a reason to take something that is already very capable and make it impossibly OP. If anything I'd like to see them a larger cargo bay, since they're not having to use that space for weapons systems. I would argue against OP in PVE. They're extremely good, but only due to range, ewar immunity, and tanking bonus specifically tied to bastion, which is weak to cap war and immobile. As far as PVP OP... Again, also not true. They're locked into Bastion in order to be considered effective. They're easily countered by neuts, immobility means they must rely on killing them within point range without being able to chase the target, and inability to receive ANY remote assistance when in Bastion means they can rely on no one. I agree that they're very capable, but this insanity of claiming they're OP has got to stop. Marauders are actually quite weak. Bastion makes them viable, but they're far from OP considering the drawbacks of bastion. Not to say they need more, but they definitely don't need less.
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 466	Posted - 2015.09.11 01:28:37 - [81] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: I would argue against OP in PVE. They're extremely good, but only due to range, ewar immunity, and tanking bonus specifically tied to bastion, which is weak to cap war and immobile. As far as PVP OP... Again, also not true. They're locked into Bastion in order to be considered effective. They're easily countered by neuts, immobility means they must rely on killing them within point range without being able to chase the target, and inability to receive ANY remote assistance when in Bastion means they can rely on no one. I agree that they're very capable, but this insanity of claiming they're OP has got to stop. Marauders are actually quite weak. Bastion makes them viable, but they're far from OP considering the drawbacks of bastion. Not to say they need more, but they definitely don't need less. Well, argue it all you want but you're perspective is incorrect. A 'gu used to be about as good as mission running got, but a vargur can and does make a tengu look amateur at L4's, and I've heard a golem is even better, though I've never flown one. L5's and high end anoms weren't designed to be run by a single subcap, but still, marauders can handle a few of them. How is that not OP? Because they are not capable of solo'ing incursions? Switching to PVP: A dread is also completely immobile while in siege. Unlike a dread, which struggles to hit anything moving, a vargur can bulls-eye ships 80k out, with reasonable reliability. A dread struggles with this, unless the pilot is doing the dread a favor and sitting still. For class size, a dread tanks horribly(swaglfar excluded), where a marauder, for class size, tanks like a champ. A marauder has no need to chase because its damage application is so very good at so many ranges, and it has drones to chase anything too fast for it to hit. A dread does not. A battleship can chase, sure, but with a handful of exceptions, battleships don't tend to tank very well, and struggle with capacitor to chase for any distance farther than a marauder can comfortably hit while in bastion. A battleship also struggles to hit things as a rule. Everything has counters. So the marauder is counter-able by neuts, big deal. So are triage carriers. You know what it's not counterable by? Every other form of Ewar. Like triage carriers as well, marauder pilots are quite capable of ducking in and out of bastion for assistance. Unlike triage, they don't have to wait 5 minutes to do so. The problem you're looking at is people not knowing their ship nor how to use it. Marauders are far from weak, people are just stupid. They drop a single marauder in on 15-20 dudes and then wonder why they died, or they bastion up on station and get blapped by a dread, and wonder why their x thousand DPS tank with small buffer was blapped off the field by a blap moros. I'm not suggesting take anything away from them. They are wonderful how they are. But they ARE OP as far as PVE, especially high sec PVE, is concerned, and they are very capable in PVP. People are just idiots and don't know how to use their ship, nor understand their enemy. Marauders don't need anything taken, but they don't need anything given either. Literally the only thing I can think of that they may have some justification for is a bit more cargo. Even that isn't necessary though. Field 3 marauders together, fit your utility highs with energy transfers/RR, and as needed duck in and out of bastion for aid. Or bring a couple augoror's/ospreys. As an aside, there could be some very interesting scenarios if marauders were given a ship maintenance bay/fitting service similar to a nestor. The Law is a point of View
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4637	Posted - 2015.09.11 02:37:14 - [82] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: This essentially... However, my concern is not with Marauders in Bastion, but rather, Marauders out of bastion. There's generally no reason to use a marauder without Bastion, which makes marauders useless for fleets and with mobile fits. It still has decent resists and base damage application, higher warp speed, huge cargo capacity and lots of utility slots. It's just insanely expensive. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Petrified Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 285	Posted - 2015.09.11 02:42:24 - [83] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: afkalt wrote: Go watch bike miker and bastionnades and come back and tell me with a straight face that they need help. I did, over and over again. And those vids were made in situations where Marauders were at an advantage due to the element of surpirse. Why? Because how many neuters, and logis were present in bastionnades? And Big Miker only preys on specific targets that he knows like the back of his hands. So in conclusion what you see in those vids are a 1 out of 20 case scenario where the odds are completely in your favor. As a pilot in general: more damage is great. As a Marauder pilot: I already get damage bonuses with or without Bastion. In Bastion mode, I get bonuses to my weapons (not damage mind you) and repair. From the sounds of it, you are looking for a 1 size fits all solution... the uber ship to rule all ships... the One Ring. Fact of the matter is: the Marauder is already a powerful ship. In the right situation is will win hands down. The problem with EVE is... well, its MMO and with it all the uncontrollable variables you have to deal with: not every situation will be the best situation. You can mitigate variables, but in the end, you can never achieve absolute control.
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.09.11 03:09:33 - [84] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: This essentially... However, my concern is not with Marauders in Bastion, but rather, Marauders out of bastion. There's generally no reason to use a marauder without Bastion, which makes marauders useless for fleets and with mobile fits. It still has decent resists and base damage application, higher warp speed, huge cargo capacity and lots of utility slots. It's just insanely expensive. In a nutshell, this is the root of my complaint. For a ship hull that cost 1 bill isk + 500 mill for fittings with only 200 mill reimbursement from platinum insurance, I feel that they shouldn't die so easily from moderate neut pressure combined with a handful of small sigs & T1 cruisers. And no I'm not talking about hi-sec PVE. Yes they are OP for hi-sec missionings but so is the Mach, Rattler, NM and Vindi when they're paired.
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 130	Posted - 2015.09.11 04:15:01 - [85] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: This essentially... However, my concern is not with Marauders in Bastion, but rather, Marauders out of bastion. There's generally no reason to use a marauder without Bastion, which makes marauders useless for fleets and with mobile fits. It still has decent resists and base damage application, higher warp speed, huge cargo capacity and lots of utility slots. It's just insanely expensive. In a nutshell, this is the root of my complaint. For a ship hull that cost 1 bill isk + 500 mill for fittings with only 200 mill reimbursement from platinum insurance, I feel that they shouldn't die so easily from moderate neut pressure combined with a handful of small sigs & T1 cruisers. And no I'm not talking about hi-sec PVE. Yes they are OP for hi-sec missionings but so is the Mach, Rattler, NM and Vindi when they're paired. So, you said that Marauder is so good that you needs a 2 pirate ships to be equal to it in PVE performance? then where you feel they have issue on? Fleets? PvP? something else?
Sandrilla Sastrum Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.09.11 04:40:21 - [86] - Quote unidenify wrote: Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: This essentially... However, my concern is not with Marauders in Bastion, but rather, Marauders out of bastion. There's generally no reason to use a marauder without Bastion, which makes marauders useless for fleets and with mobile fits. It still has decent resists and base damage application, higher warp speed, huge cargo capacity and lots of utility slots. It's just insanely expensive. In a nutshell, this is the root of my complaint. For a ship hull that cost 1 bill isk + 500 mill for fittings with only 200 mill reimbursement from platinum insurance, I feel that they shouldn't die so easily from moderate neut pressure combined with a handful of small sigs & T1 cruisers. And no I'm not talking about hi-sec PVE. Yes they are OP for hi-sec missionings but so is the Mach, Rattler, NM and Vindi when they're paired. So, you said that Marauder is so good that you needs a 2 pirate ships to be equal to it in PVE performance? then where you feel they have issue on? Fleets? PvP? something else? They're to vulnerable when stuck in Bastion because the cycle is to long which should be reduce to 30 secs. Or they need higher sensor strength to make them harder to probe down and giving Bastion time to cooldown so you can bailout when you spot probes on D-scan. Of course all these additions are redundant for those who (for some strange reason) insist on using Marauders ONLY for Hi-Sec PVEing........yawns.
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 130	Posted - 2015.09.11 05:25:45 - [87] - Quote I do agree that while Bastion make Marauder much more useful, it also make it much more risky to use in low/null system that see a lot of activity. honest, I don't see how reduce from 1 min to 30 sec would help or better sensor strength. any pilot worth salt would use dscan to locate you if you work on combat site.
Icarus fall What Shall We Call It 7	Posted - 2015.09.11 15:08:25 - [88] - Quote Sandrilla Sastrum wrote: Kenrailae wrote: And..... no. Marauders are already obscene in bastion. Please, you must live in HI-sec. In a WH with all holes closed and the statics at criticals, all it would take is 5 Sentinels, 5 Svipuls, and 5 Hecates to make life miserable for any Marauder pilot that gets dunked on by these little vipers. so it takes 15 ships to take down one. those 15 could also take out any other battleship along with the majority of dreads. Its not an issue with bastion its an issue of going 15 vs 1 and thinking you should win.
Arean Proktor Chilli Joe 10	Posted - 2015.09.11 16:55:09 - [89] - Quote Multibox 3 marauders... op success

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