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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
847
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Posted - 2015.09.07 02:56:16 -
[31] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:I just don't like competing against other players wallets. I had a mobile game for spending on, they would have some shiny goodies once in a while. I used to play something called battle nations, and spent money. Then candycrush bought them out and completely abandoned the game.
So I go to Gamelofts dungeon hunter series, and once my armor is about as high as it's going to get I spend 10$ on energy refills (yeah you use energy to play >_>) to earn enough points for an event armor, but AS IT TURNS OUT you have to at the same time compete against other peoples wallets on the leaderboard for only this event in order to upgrade the armor to any usefulness. So I may be done with that game shortly.
In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell. I can say i'm glad we have plex to counter chinese isk sellers but alts are more OP than any amount of isk in the game.
TL;DR I'm a limp-wristed player that can't face REAL competition and would rather play tic-tac-toe on easy mode.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
627
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Posted - 2015.09.07 05:18:08 -
[32] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Hal Morsh wrote:I just don't like competing against other players wallets. I had a mobile game for spending on, they would have some shiny goodies once in a while. I used to play something called battle nations, and spent money. Then candycrush bought them out and completely abandoned the game.
So I go to Gamelofts dungeon hunter series, and once my armor is about as high as it's going to get I spend 10$ on energy refills (yeah you use energy to play >_>) to earn enough points for an event armor, but AS IT TURNS OUT you have to at the same time compete against other peoples wallets on the leaderboard for only this event in order to upgrade the armor to any usefulness. So I may be done with that game shortly.
In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell. I can say i'm glad we have plex to counter chinese isk sellers but alts are more OP than any amount of isk in the game. TL;DR I'm a limp-wristed player that can't face REAL competition and would rather play tic-tac-toe on easy mode.
We had this argument in another thread, and I won.
Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win, it has nothing to do with intelligence or skill. You are literally shelling out real world cash to buy an advantage over other players. EVE is a game which is now utterly reliant on alts and multiboxing to be competitive. Alts mitigate risk and negate mechanical consequences (see -10 ganking alts) in a whole host of ways and those advantages are obtained simply by giving CCP more cash. Your statement is accurate if reversed - people use alts to make the game LESS competitive for themselves; they are a shortcut and a substitute for actual skill, intelligence, and cooperation with other players.
Obviously, this is the way EVE is and will remain. Much of the veteran player base is dependent on alts, and as another poster noted, there are too many menial tasks which don't make sense to be performed full-time by independent human players. This fact, however, hardly renders incorrect the complementary fact that the game of alts / multiboxing arms race results in a game where player skill both at the game and at interacting with others (which should be the deciding factor in an MMO) take a secondary place to the question of how much one is willing to invest per month to bring additional "units" into the equation in the EVE meta game that sometimes seems more reminiscent of an RTS than an MMO.
Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
627
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Posted - 2015.09.07 05:32:46 -
[33] - Quote
The detriment vs. convenience question is irrelevant now. The game has evolved along certain lines to where the operation of many accounts is an integral part of the game for quite a few players. It's too late to change that. |
Yarda Black
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
804
|
Posted - 2015.09.07 05:45:01 -
[34] - Quote
Not making ISK somewhere isn't the same as not using the system. This "Russian" is using "his" space to drop on people. Seems more interesting then just sitting there in an Ishtar orbiting your drones and "inhabiting" a system. |
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
604
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Posted - 2015.09.07 06:41:10 -
[35] - Quote
alts make the game playable.
It's nice not having to depend on others, being able to do everything yourself.
Other people are a hassle. |
May Arethusa
SessionChange
55
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Posted - 2015.09.07 06:43:45 -
[36] - Quote
Another thread where you rant about (stupid) reasons you don't want to fight people? Go back to HS already. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39951
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Posted - 2015.09.07 06:53:14 -
[37] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:The detriment vs. convenience question is irrelevant now. The game has evolved along certain lines to where the operation of many accounts is an integral part of the game for quite a few players. It's too late to change that. 64% of players have only 1 account
86% of players have 2 or less accounts
It's not as big of an issue as we often assume. Significantly more than half the player base has just the one account.*
*there is some guest inaction around that because CCP used to prevent multiple accounts from the same email address, but the error results in an estimate average of 1.35 - 1.65 accounts per player.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7141
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Posted - 2015.09.07 07:09:06 -
[38] - Quote
Vollhov wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Hal Morsh wrote:I guess that would be an addition to EVE. I recommend relocation. Do not fk with the Russians. They have motivation, perseverance and an attitude that takes what happens in EVE on personal level that is orders above and beyond what the rest of us consider worthwhile. On the otherhand, if you are so inclined. if you manage to defeat a Russian EVE player, you can be sure he has smashed his keyboard to pieces in abject rage. After that, prepare for a life-long vendetta, as he will remain in EVE for as long as he is alive, just to spite and attack you. Their reputation is very real, and very deserved. And monitor. Mouse we throw out the window.
And don't click on any links they provide in local or any channel.
That "find your IP address and DDOS your IP address/your node via tracert" is older than CCP's warning against using it. The first I heard of it being used was from someone in NPC null giving some Russians a hard time.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1381
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Posted - 2015.09.07 07:40:14 -
[39] - Quote
The good thing with EvE is that everybody can define their own "win" condition. If multiboxers feel good at dropping on solo players with overwhelming force then let them have their fun, nobody is forced to take such a fight on a disadvantage.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2015.09.07 07:46:55 -
[40] - Quote
Eve is a hyper-competitive (yay capitalism) full time pvp game. In PvP it is almost always decided by which side is the most resourceful and player numbers are one of the most important resources.
You can't really blame people for using alts to try and level the playing field because you are likely to get outnumbered flying solo. Yes player characters are better than alts but in the absence of friends, alts are the next best thing.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1574
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Posted - 2015.09.07 08:42:04 -
[41] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement. Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally.
Is that pay-to-win? I guess also in a sense as he who has the most friends/accounts has an advantage. But then by that definition the whole game is pay-to-win. The Imperium has the most players (and accounts) and their dominance in-game is a direct result of that. Because of their size, they are paying CCP the largest share of subscription revenue and these numbers give them an in-game advantage when they bring them to bear on a rival.
Winning in the sandbox is not only dependent on your ship piloting skill, your skill points, and your in game wealth. It very much depends on who you are flying with. Whether that is an alt or a friend is somewhat inconsequential - your ability to make social connections and bring multiple accounts to a situation will dictate how successful you are at it. That is just the type of game Eve is by design. Crying about losing to someone who has more support (friends or alts) isn't going to change anything - you still lost. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2015.09.07 10:56:14 -
[42] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally.
^ this
This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Hal Morsh
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
404
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Posted - 2015.09.07 11:16:30 -
[43] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:Another thread where you rant about (stupid) reasons you don't want to fight people? Go back to HS already.
This argument wasn't a whole lot different when I was an NPC corp, it's irrelevant.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
427
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Posted - 2015.09.07 12:24:07 -
[44] - Quote
The only way to not have n+1 combat is to get the sand out of the sand box and add lots of stupid restrictions and mechanics on PvP interactions. n+1 combat encourages alts.
But dam it bloody hard to fly even a few ships at once esp if they are different. I was flying a tackle hauler, a falcon and a gila the other day and i derpped so bad i didn't get my kill.
And lets be honest. WoW and all their kin absolutely have alts. It is in fact very hard to prevent it. The free to play ones have crazy numbers of em.
Long story short. Single shard sandbox means alts.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
848
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Posted - 2015.09.07 12:53:28 -
[45] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Yang Aurilen wrote:Hal Morsh wrote:I just don't like competing against other players wallets. I had a mobile game for spending on, they would have some shiny goodies once in a while. I used to play something called battle nations, and spent money. Then candycrush bought them out and completely abandoned the game.
So I go to Gamelofts dungeon hunter series, and once my armor is about as high as it's going to get I spend 10$ on energy refills (yeah you use energy to play >_>) to earn enough points for an event armor, but AS IT TURNS OUT you have to at the same time compete against other peoples wallets on the leaderboard for only this event in order to upgrade the armor to any usefulness. So I may be done with that game shortly.
In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell. I can say i'm glad we have plex to counter chinese isk sellers but alts are more OP than any amount of isk in the game. TL;DR I'm a limp-wristed player that can't face REAL competition and would rather play tic-tac-toe on easy mode. We had this argument in another thread, and I won. Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win, it has nothing to do with intelligence or skill. You are literally shelling out real world cash to buy an advantage over other players. EVE is a game which is now utterly reliant on alts and multiboxing to be competitive. Alts mitigate risk and negate mechanical consequences (see -10 ganking alts) in a whole host of ways and those advantages are obtained simply by giving CCP more cash. Your statement is accurate if reversed - people use alts to make the game LESS competitive for themselves; they are a shortcut and a substitute for actual skill, intelligence, and cooperation with other players. Obviously, this is the way EVE is and will remain. Much of the veteran player base is dependent on alts, and as another poster noted, there are too many menial tasks which don't make sense to be performed full-time by independent human players. This fact, however, hardly renders incorrect the complementary fact that the game of alts / multiboxing arms race results in a game where player skill both at the game and at interacting with others (which should be the deciding factor in an MMO) take a secondary place to the question of how much one is willing to invest per month to bring additional "units" into the equation in the EVE meta game that sometimes seems more reminiscent of an RTS than an MMO. Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement.
Are you confusing me for Legatus? Because it's not my style to do ping pong ding dong arguments that create 10 pages of nothing but us talking each other down. And no I'm not telling him he's "not good" for not having alts. I'm telling him he's bad at EVE AND that other game he was playing because he can't handle real problems and would rather whine and moan about it on the forums like some entitled carebear that thinks that if he can't solve it no one can and should be nerfed.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11636
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Posted - 2015.09.07 12:59:42 -
[46] - Quote
I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread?
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
848
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Posted - 2015.09.07 13:06:25 -
[47] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread?
It's always grr goons. You should know that by now. Miner ganked? Grr goons. Margin trading scam? Grr goons. Socket closed at that worst time? Grr goons. See a goon in system? Grr goons. See someone from Red Alliance typing stuff in cyrillic? Also grr goons. Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it. Fired from your job? It's all The Mittani's fault!
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
223
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Posted - 2015.09.07 13:10:32 -
[48] - Quote
Yes blame for everything Russian. But do not worry. Of us become ever less in the game.
Jamyl Sarum "Good and evil"
Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One"
Jamyl Sarum
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Lulu Lunette
Blue Aurochs United Systems of Aridia
71
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Posted - 2015.09.07 13:12:53 -
[49] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread?
Grr alts! Should have been enough intel from OP first encounter to maybe spring a trap of his own.
@lunettelulu7
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16997
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Posted - 2015.09.07 14:11:28 -
[50] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread? It's always grr goons. You should know that by now. Miner ganked? Grr goons. Margin trading scam? Grr goons. Socket closed at that worst time? Grr goons. See a goon in system? Grr goons. See someone from Red Alliance typing stuff in cyrillic? Also grr goons. Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it. Fired from your job? It's all The Mittani's fault!
That last one was probably Digi, not mittens.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6831
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Posted - 2015.09.07 16:24:59 -
[51] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it. Boat is very hot, after all.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Leeluvv
Polarized
35
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Posted - 2015.09.07 18:01:54 -
[52] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:...In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell...
I don't understand this whine at all, you are playing a MMO against everyone that isn't on your side. If you're playing solo, then you're in the wrong game and your throwing your ego against everyone else's. Top tip: You'll lose.
Also, I have 2 accounts, one of which I haven't logged on in 2 months and I pay for both in cash; however, I farmed 1.6 Billion ISK over the weekend. Making ISK to pay for another account is no different to making ISK to buy a deadspace mod. Both give you an advantage within the rules of the game. The fact you don't like the rules isn't our or CCP's problem, it's yours. Live with it or leave, your choice.
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Leeluvv
Polarized
35
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Posted - 2015.09.07 18:03:25 -
[53] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:...Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win...
So, playing against more than 1 account is pay to win? If it's 3 people on a LAN one day and one person multi-boxing 3 accounts the next, how does this make one pay to win and the other not? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6833
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Posted - 2015.09.07 19:53:49 -
[54] - Quote
Leeluvv wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:...Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win... So, playing against more than 1 account is pay to win? If it's 3 people on a LAN one day and one person multi-boxing 3 accounts the next, how does this make one pay to win and the other not? Call it "Play to win"
(note: the win is divided among the three people)
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
50
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Posted - 2015.09.07 19:55:43 -
[55] - Quote
They're both pay-to-win and pay-to-win is fine because productive people trade their time, doing work, for money. So faulting them for wanting to convert some of that money into game fun is just the envy of players who slave away earning isk at the equivalent of a few cents an hour..
Hope that clears things up here. |
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
76
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Posted - 2015.09.07 20:00:32 -
[56] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Think he was not in Horde when that happened.
OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight. Unless they are broadcasting, perfect ranges with perfectly timed alphas and perfect logi repairs can be better from alts. However, this is an aspect of EVE, if it is unfair, harsh then you need to find tools, ships and people to even the balance or overwhelm them in return. I would love to see someone who can run perfect ranges, perfectly timed alphas and perfect logistics with an army of alts. Because repeaters and anything that gives a similar advantage is banned (round robin, macros, videofx,etc). So if they are pulling that stuff perfectly they are either an amazing cheater or a godlike player that would pwn you regardless of alts. I say amazing cheater because even when repeaters were allowed being that perfect was unlikely. Although one second server ticks do give you a fairly large margin of error.
What's funny is here
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/
CCP Quant posted data showing that the average eve player has 1.5 accounts.
So once again people on the forums are vastly wrong with their estimates involving the eve player base... This time on the number of alts the average eve player has. So you're looking for a problem that doesn't really exist 95% of the time. |
Estevan Valladares
WorldTradersGuild.Com
16
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Posted - 2015.09.07 21:03:21 -
[57] - Quote
Vollhov wrote:Estevan Valladares wrote:One thing I could never really understand is how in EVE fiction pilots are in the ship. CCP cinematics used to show you in what gives name to the HYDROSTATIC CAPSULE ( https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsule) but at the same time, they had it shown in other cinematics the capsuleer in front of a screen seated on a chair, which is not featured in the Capitains Quarters when you see the capsule opened. Also, they imply since day one that you are faster and more agile than regular pilots because that plugs on your back are a direct link to your nervous system to the ship you flying, which is also not shown in the regular cinematics. Now to the point: FOR THAT REASON IS IT NEEDED TO PUT THAT HAT TO MAKE THE PILOT RUSSIAN and therefore you need him to be fully dressed and seated, or it is just plain racist ? It's simple. We have Russian their clones. Cloning of old drawings, which to us handed over Lord Falek. We can walk freely on the ship, drink vodka, dance with a bear and enjoy life. Sorry for my English
I sense you are not russian ... lol
WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
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Estevan Valladares
WorldTradersGuild.Com
16
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Posted - 2015.09.07 21:12:16 -
[58] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Think he was not in Horde when that happened.
OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight. Unless they are broadcasting, perfect ranges with perfectly timed alphas and perfect logi repairs can be better from alts. However, this is an aspect of EVE, if it is unfair, harsh then you need to find tools, ships and people to even the balance or overwhelm them in return. I would love to see someone who can run perfect ranges, perfectly timed alphas and perfect logistics with an army of alts. Because repeaters and anything that gives a similar advantage is banned (round robin, macros, videofx,etc). So if they are pulling that stuff perfectly they are either an amazing cheater or a godlike player that would pwn you regardless of alts. I say amazing cheater because even when repeaters were allowed being that perfect was unlikely. Although one second server ticks do give you a fairly large margin of error. What's funny is here https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/ CCP Quant posted data showing that the average eve player has 1.5 accounts. So once again people on the forums are vastly wrong with their estimates involving the eve player base... This time on the number of alts the average eve player has. So you're looking for a problem that doesn't really exist 95% of the time.
The average person which has never multiboxed count as impossible what is simply a matter of training. Most of the times, non-multiboxers think that multiboxers play like a lot of single players, and that is impossible. "Dont try to bend the spoon, it is impossible. Instead, try to realize the truth: There is no spoon. And you see that what bends is just yourself."
Not everyone bearing multiple accounts is a multiboxer, and not all multiboxers bear the number of accounts they use online at a given time.
Alts is one thing, multiboxing another.
What you say when you tell that multiboxing is impossible to achieve coordination and distinct inputs is the same as saying a person cannot play a accordion, or drive a car, or any other task that involves the same principle: Use one hand for one task and the other for another, without breaking timing. That is simple, and only requires focus and training.
But what really hurts is the fact that people know that THERE IS NO WAY under the sun you can prevent that in a fashionable way for your business. CCP is just clever and dont try. If they wanted, they could do it the same way they prevent you from logging two trial accounts at the same computer.
WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
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Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
225
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Posted - 2015.09.07 21:16:13 -
[59] - Quote
Estevan Valladares wrote:Vollhov wrote:Estevan Valladares wrote:One thing I could never really understand is how in EVE fiction pilots are in the ship. CCP cinematics used to show you in what gives name to the HYDROSTATIC CAPSULE ( https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsule) but at the same time, they had it shown in other cinematics the capsuleer in front of a screen seated on a chair, which is not featured in the Capitains Quarters when you see the capsule opened. Also, they imply since day one that you are faster and more agile than regular pilots because that plugs on your back are a direct link to your nervous system to the ship you flying, which is also not shown in the regular cinematics. Now to the point: FOR THAT REASON IS IT NEEDED TO PUT THAT HAT TO MAKE THE PILOT RUSSIAN and therefore you need him to be fully dressed and seated, or it is just plain racist ? It's simple. We have Russian their clones. Cloning of old drawings, which to us handed over Lord Falek. We can walk freely on the ship, drink vodka, dance with a bear and enjoy life. Sorry for my English I sense you are not russian ... lol Yet some Russian. I Amarr Russian I will reveal the secret how looks Russian capsuleer.
Jamyl Sarum "Good and evil"
Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One"
Jamyl Sarum
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Martin Corwin
Emergente Struktur
39
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Posted - 2015.09.07 23:19:51 -
[60] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:Leeluvv wrote:Think of it as paid for accounts, rather than alts. Now rephrase your complaint accordingly. pay2win and we all know plexes aren't pay to win.
Differentiating how the money is earned to pay for an account is a red herring. In which currency you are getting paid to farm ISK doesn't matter. |
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