EVE Search - Is alt convenience worth the detriment to the game?

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Is alt convenience worth the detriment to the game?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Hal Morsh Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 399	Posted - 2015.09.05 17:44:57 - [1] - Quote Everybody loves their alts. I have noticed many times over though, that instead of people fighting and defending where they live and the resources, they log off in system and switch accounts, leaving you with your thumb up your ass. Then you come along later and there all those alts are ready to blow you up for their kill boards. There was a looped lowsec system without stations, so me and some other newbies went out. One in a buffer harbinger and me in a rep cruiser and a frigate as well. What happens? A Russian brings in a cyno alt, and a boost alt and black ops drops up before we can do a thing. Two black ops battleships with neuts. We find out those systems are all empty and unused, why? Because some Russian with dread alts bashes pos's in there too, one person couldn't do all that AND fund it on one account, but of course a few friends can't even play because he survailences those systems. More near the future I decide a one system lowsec pocket would be nice, too bad some Russians log on and blow you up. So they must be living there right? Me and two other people individual of each other show up in system to shoot the Russians and they all disappear (log off), so we end up shooting each other before we realize we had the same goal, they left anyways. So it seems you can't participate in these systems because alt armies are denying all the content, but not actually using it them selfs, they'd rather have incursion alts in safety to do the isk. Overuse of highsec pve content and underuse of lowsec all ties into the same people who just happen to have different alts. You couldn't murder people on wardecs and bad security status then go back to highsec farming without getting splattered all over the place. Individuals all working together would actually USE those systems. I was in a corp who tried to do just that, but we were small and the 5 people online didn't feel like fighting 30 isboxed thrashers. But I left corp and suicided a smartbomb domi when they didn't want anyone to undock. Threaten to kick me for undocking is not the best way to keep me in a corp. Trying out pandemic horde though, all the programs and things are getting annoying but they seem very organized and happen to look like a counter for such issues. I also typed all this on a mobile device >_< Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3269	Posted - 2015.09.05 17:52:55 - [2] - Quote Just let me get this straight. Some guy is dropping dreads and blops on you in lowsec and you, as a member of a 1700-character PVP alliance, respond not by setting bait for him and blowing his ass up, but running away to squeal on the forums? Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
Bellatrix Invicta New Order Logistics CODE. 512	Posted - 2015.09.05 17:59:27 - [3] - Quote Do you find anything about Eve enjoyable? If you think you've won, think again. The CODE always wins.
Hal Morsh Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 399	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:04:33 - [4] - Quote Scatim Helicon wrote: Just let me get this straight. Some guy is dropping dreads and blops on you in lowsec and you, as a member of a 1700-character PVP alliance, respond not by setting bait for him and blowing his ass up, but running away to squeal on the forums? This was back a year or two. Bellatrix Invicta wrote: Do you find anything about Eve enjoyable? Mining Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1367	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:04:46 - [5] - Quote Think he was not in Horde when that happened. OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight. I'm my own NPC alt.
Jenshae Chiroptera 2308	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:08:04 - [6] - Quote Tipa Riot wrote: Think he was not in Horde when that happened. OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight. Unless they are broadcasting, perfect ranges with perfectly timed alphas and perfect logi repairs can be better from alts. However, this is an aspect of EVE, if it is unfair, harsh then you need to find tools, ships and people to even the balance or overwhelm them in return. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
Hal Morsh Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 399	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:09:57 - [7] - Quote Tipa Riot wrote: Think he was not in Horde when that happened. OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight. Believe it or not I have proof of a Russian trying to argue the opposite. Malt Zedong wrote: Multiboxing is one thing. Using a software for that is another. Your argument of effectiveness imply that everytime someone multiboxes, they are relying on mirrored input over a network of identical and repeating actuators. That is far from the truth. The most effective multiboxers dont use hardware, or software to relay inputs over a miriad of clients. Instead they do play all the online chars by hand using clever coordination. And that my friend, is better than any same number of different people trying to coordinate their actions. As you may think, doing that is complex, requires focus and patience, so you dont do that all the time just for kicks. So the most of the times, you will see people just running around multiboxing identical fits in relayed input systems, like isboxer. But either way, it is still for the other person, nothing but pride in the way of just facing the number of oponents as they are rather than going around trying to feel yourself avenged by the fact that it was a multiboxer, not a group of real people. They don't like good fights, they don't like risk and they sure as hell love their alts so they just best happen to characterize the problem since there's no word for it all. They do highsec pve on some accounts and pvp on another few, now if there were only Russians left playing EVE, where would the content come from? Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Leeluvv Polarized 34	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:26:27 - [8] - Quote Think of it as paid for accounts, rather than alts. Now rephrase your complaint accordingly.
Hal Morsh Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 399	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:28:08 - [9] - Quote Leeluvv wrote: Think of it as paid for accounts, rather than alts. Now rephrase your complaint accordingly. pay2win and we all know plexes aren't pay to win. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Salvos Rhoska 1353	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:28:55 - [10] - Quote Russians are a world onto their own in EVE. They don't think on the whole, nor react, like you or I would. They are extremely serious about this game and their property in ways far beyond ours. I'm not kidding when I say they would sooner show up on your home doorstep, than they would relinquish even one inch of their territory. ------------
Vollhov Senators of Eridan Red Alliance 217	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:30:42 - [11] - Quote Russian Ivan evil. Loving vodka into 2 windows. Jamyl Sarum Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One"
Hal Morsh Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 399	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:30:58 - [12] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Russians are a world onto their own in EVE. They don't think on the whole, nor react, like you or I would. They are extremely serious about this game and their property in ways far beyond ours. I guess that would be an addition to EVE. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Salvos Rhoska 1353	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:32:49 - [13] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I guess that would be an addition to EVE. I recommend relocation. Do not fk with the Russians. They have motivation, perseverance and an attitude that takes what happens in EVE on personal level that is orders above and beyond what the rest of us consider worthwhile. ------------
Vollhov Senators of Eridan Red Alliance 217	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:43:53 - [14] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: I guess that would be an addition to EVE. I recommend relocation. Do not fk with the Russians. They have motivation, perseverance and an attitude that takes what happens in EVE on personal level that is orders above and beyond what the rest of us consider worthwhile. On the otherhand, if you are so inclined. if you manage to defeat a Russian EVE player, you can be sure he has smashed his keyboard to pieces in abject rage. After that, prepare for a life-long vendetta, as he will remain in EVE for as long as he is alive, just to spite and attack you. Their reputation is very real, and very deserved. And monitor. Mouse we throw out the window. Jamyl Sarum Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One"
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8414	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:53:03 - [15] - Quote The self-entitled butthurt is strong with this one. [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Hal Morsh Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 399	Posted - 2015.09.05 18:53:46 - [16] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: I guess that would be an addition to EVE. I recommend relocation. Do not fk with the Russians. They have motivation, perseverance and an attitude that takes what happens in EVE on personal level that is orders above and beyond what the rest of us consider worthwhile. On the otherhand, if you are so inclined. if you manage to defeat a Russian EVE player, you can be sure he has smashed his keyboard to pieces in abject rage. I caught a hauler of theirs in a daredevil, he was stabbed then called me a noob. Later when a curse was on my vexor he came in a polarized destroyer, which died. Might explain some things...................................... Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Markus Reese Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 540	Posted - 2015.09.05 19:18:55 - [17] - Quote Eating poutine while forum trolling so full TL:DR mode om my thoughts on alts. Alts arent the problem, multiboxing is easy is. If a person wants to pay twice as much to have two characters doing two things? Let em. I can do same thing in one. Issue is mundane tasks are mundane so can run in background. They are time intense lest you rotate with other stuff. Cyno alts, you light it up and that is it. What solo player would ever choose cyno vs combat exception bein bait cyno? Pvp alts only exist cause combat is advantaged to number of times F1 is pressed. To quote Lfod Shi The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Estevan Valladares WorldTradersGuild.Com 8	Posted - 2015.09.05 19:49:17 - [18] - Quote Yes. Again the same issue by the same person for the same reason. For the other person, there is nothing but pride making people see problem where there is not. Pride of not being able to do so themselves or pride for other people not being bound by the same standards in order to enjoy or take the game seriously. It is indiferent for anyone else if it is five people incredibly coordinated and seamingly uninterested in other people or one person controlling five pilots. And most people dont actually bother about that. There are a few people who like to shout their malcontent but they hide their reasons. Some people hate alts because they cant handle them, and therefore think the person who can may be cheating. Some people wont spend enough for alts, therefore wants to forbid those who can. Some people get destroyed over and over by russian blobs, and cry in forums because they think it is unfar. In any way, still pride. WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Marsha Mallow 2469	Posted - 2015.09.05 19:57:44 - [19] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: So it seems you can't participate in these systems because alt armies are denying all the content, but not actually using it them selfs, they'd rather have incursion alts in safety to do the isk. Overuse of highsec pve content and underuse of lowsec all ties into the same people who just happen to have different alts. Trying out pandemic horde though, all the programs and things are getting annoying but they seem very organized and happen to look like a counter for such issues. I also typed all this on a mobile device >_< You probably are going to get yelled at for ranting, but tbh I sort of agree (and occasionally venting like this might yield some positive advice you can use). Not only does having loads of alts allow you to evade consequences, it makes things have less meaning. I had 17 decs or something on my empire alliance. I used to log into talk to the deccers to take the mikey out of them, i.e. 'if you want to attack 5 faction dickstar/deathstar/resistars with 100 mods each on in your 3 man corp go for it, I want to watch you pound sand and laugh.' Only one guy saw the funny side after I took the mikey so long haggling over the wardec fee I ended up asking him to pay me for wasting my time. But like he said, he was just doing it for content. Ended up talking to him quite a bit, he was absolutely not griefing to upset people, at one point he put an alt into a former corp he had dec'd in the past to help them. He just liked playing solo and found decs a way to generate PVP on his terms. Problem with alts online - some like me are approaching 200m sp on multiple characters so... we don't actually need them anymore because they don't serve specific roles. I hate multiboxing too, so it's getting to the point I'm just holding onto them as investments/sentimental reasons or to cover more distance. It makes it very hard at that point to understand the complaints of people with less SP who struggle to have fun once they are under attack (wardecs/invasions/afk cloaking) etc. If CCP suddenly decided to change the game so SP didn't matter and we only used one alt I know people would go nuts, but I actually wouldn't mind. It is a system that allows older players or those with more RL money/time to farm to skip over the obstacles in such a way they can make it harder for other players. Yes, you can out-think people doing it, but you can't do that for a whole corp or alliance. I think the advice given earlier to move is probably wise, even if it's annoying. Sounds like a scenario you can't win so you may as well cut your losses and relocate. Salvos Rhoska wrote: I recommend relocation. Do not fk with the Russians. They have motivation, perseverance and an attitude that takes what happens in EVE on personal level that is orders above and beyond what the rest of us consider worthwhile. I know we're not supposed to use cultural sterotypes on the forums, but it's a mistake to pretend cutural values don't exist, and this one isn't an insult. I spent time in Russia as a child, and that attitude of perserverance really is evident. That's not to say other cultures don't do the same, but it's a matter of pride in Russia to be obstinate. How's PHorde anyway, I was debating putting an alt there myself to see what it's like? Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE! Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 494	Posted - 2015.09.05 20:11:54 - [20] - Quote IMO alts arent the problem, sure Id LOVE to see a one character and one account gameplay, but that simply not Eve. The development of content, that slow and arduous task to create content and build an empire lends itself perfectly to alts in this game because of its slow and methodical nature. Its something CCP desired in the game itself because it paid them more in the long run and now players are complaining when they cannot or will not do so in their game and are becoming posterboys for change. That being said I have 22 accounts and numerous alts I do stuff with. I built up such a vast array of accounts purely so as NOT to be blueballed by other players looking to ruin my fun in such a way as that the only alternative was NOT to play. This is an unacceptable form of gameplay imo and is the REAL detriment to the game of Eve Online. But then that is also an end result of a game where you are supposed to play the villain and actively seek to ruin others game play so that only the strong survive. It is jsut the nature of the beast in this case. I refuse to be hamstrung by anyone in this game and forced to log off and NOT play a game I enjoy and want to play. In that aspect its BAD game design and alts are the way around that as there is no real way to force only one character and account like you have in real life with the resultant consequences inherent in such a system. Would it in some ways be preferable to me? Sure. But would make a slow game even more unplayable and boring and people would flee from it like the plague. So I use the game mechanics to stop that from happening, stay longer in the eve world and therefore produce more content over those accounts in the long run. Yes it can be frustrating. Yes it can be annoying. But guess what thats life and thats Eve in a nutshell. Either use what you can and rise above it or just leave the game. Its your only options. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak. http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace
Estevan Valladares WorldTradersGuild.Com 11	Posted - 2015.09.05 20:22:50 - [21] - Quote Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: IMO alts arent the problem, sure Id LOVE to see a one character and one account gameplay, but that simply not Eve. The development of content, that slow and arduous task to create content and build an empire lends itself perfectly to alts in this game because of its slow and methodical nature. Its something CCP desired in the game itself because it paid them more in the long run and now players are complaining when they cannot or will not do so in their game and are becoming posterboys for change. That being said I have 22 accounts and numerous alts I do stuff with. I built up such a vast array of accounts purely so as NOT to be blueballed by other players looking to ruin my fun in such a way as that the only alternative was NOT to play. This is an unacceptable form of gameplay imo and is the REAL detriment to the game of Eve Online. But then that is also an end result of a game where you are supposed to play the villain and actively seek to ruin others game play so that only the strong survive. It is jsut the nature of the beast in this case. I refuse to be hamstrung by anyone in this game and forced to log off and NOT play a game I enjoy and want to play. In that aspect its BAD game design and alts are the way around that as there is no real way to force only one character and account like you have in real life with the resultant consequences inherent in such a system. Would it in some ways be preferable to me? Sure. But would make a slow game even more unplayable and boring and people would flee from it like the plague. So I use the game mechanics to stop that from happening, stay longer in the eve world and therefore produce more content over those accounts in the long run. Yes it can be frustrating. Yes it can be annoying. But guess what thats life and thats Eve in a nutshell. Either use what you can and rise above it or just leave the game. Its your only options. Just adding one thing. You have alts in real life. One example is the fact that people with money sets up corporations or funds in one, several countries or both, in order to have what otherwise would only be possible by bein multiple people at a time. The fact that I for example do work for one company in one country and for another in another country and live in neither circumvents the obligation of paying income tax in any. As I am exempt by not living in the country I work, and being exempt because I dont work in the country I live. There is actually no form of preventing it, like the US tries to, when you are obligated to pay income tax as a US citizen even if you dont live nor work in the US but you remain a US citizen. It is not exactly like that, but the final result is that which is the same as if it was. And the people with more money simply circumvent it by being multiple medium companies instead of one rich person. WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Vollhov Senators of Eridan Red Alliance 218	Posted - 2015.09.05 21:28:47 - [22] - Quote Angry Russian pilot Russian pilot Jamyl Sarum Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One"
Kellie Dusette Isogen 5 10994	Posted - 2015.09.05 21:39:08 - [23] - Quote GÖÑ -¦-öGäôGäô+¦-ö pàñ pàñ -öGäô+¦-é-ö -ü++-ü-ò \|\| dus-ött-ö squ+¦dGäó \|\| -¦í-â
Estevan Valladares WorldTradersGuild.Com 16	Posted - 2015.09.05 22:05:48 - [24] - Quote Vollhov wrote: Angry Russian pilot Russian pilot One thing I could never really understand is how in EVE fiction pilots are in the ship. CCP cinematics used to show you in what gives name to the HYDROSTATIC CAPSULE (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsule) but at the same time, they had it shown in other cinematics the capsuleer in front of a screen seated on a chair, which is not featured in the Capitains Quarters when you see the capsule opened. Also, they imply since day one that you are faster and more agile than regular pilots because that plugs on your back are a direct link to your nervous system to the ship you flying, which is also not shown in the regular cinematics. Now to the point: FOR THAT REASON IS IT NEEDED TO PUT THAT HAT TO MAKE THE PILOT RUSSIAN and therefore you need him to be fully dressed and seated, or it is just plain racist ? WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Nihlus Valke University of Caille Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2015.09.06 00:30:27 - [25] - Quote Apparently CCP is struggling and needs all the income they can muster. No MMO developer in their right mind would ever allow this type of thing other than to compensate for a low (unique) subscriber base. That being said, there may be no EVE Online without people paying for multiple accounts.
Bellatrix Invicta New Order Logistics CODE. 514	Posted - 2015.09.06 00:35:50 - [26] - Quote Nihlus Valke wrote: Apparently CCP is struggling and needs all the income they can muster. No MMO developer in their right mind would ever allow this type of thing other than to compensate for a low (unique) subscriber base. That being said, there may be no EVE Online without people paying for multiple accounts. Citation needed. If you think you've won, think again. The CODE always wins.
Vollhov Senators of Eridan Red Alliance 220	Posted - 2015.09.06 06:26:57 - [27] - Quote Estevan Valladares wrote: Vollhov wrote: Angry Russian pilot Russian pilot One thing I could never really understand is how in EVE fiction pilots are in the ship. CCP cinematics used to show you in what gives name to the HYDROSTATIC CAPSULE (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsule) but at the same time, they had it shown in other cinematics the capsuleer in front of a screen seated on a chair, which is not featured in the Capitains Quarters when you see the capsule opened. Also, they imply since day one that you are faster and more agile than regular pilots because that plugs on your back are a direct link to your nervous system to the ship you flying, which is also not shown in the regular cinematics. Now to the point: FOR THAT REASON IS IT NEEDED TO PUT THAT HAT TO MAKE THE PILOT RUSSIAN and therefore you need him to be fully dressed and seated, or it is just plain racist ? It's simple. We have Russian their clones. Cloning of old drawings, which to us handed over Lord Falek. We can walk freely on the ship, drink vodka, dance with a bear and enjoy life. Sorry for my English Jamyl Sarum Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One"
Kiandoshia Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 2366	Posted - 2015.09.06 06:37:13 - [28] - Quote Nihlus Valke wrote: Apparently CCP is struggling and needs all the income they can muster. No MMO developer in their right mind would ever allow this type of thing other than to compensate for a low (unique) subscriber base. That being said, there may be no EVE Online without people paying for multiple accounts. The things the OP is describing have been around and have been much 'worse' in the past, when Eve was a lot healthier.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1370	Posted - 2015.09.06 11:11:43 - [29] - Quote The allowance of alts and the healthy number of 1.5 accounts per real person (average) is just the result of the nature of EvE as a competetive single-shard sandbox and the overall quite good balancing. You definitely don't need an alt account to have fun in EvE. I would wish that over time CCP rebalances the few remaining situations where a second player is not a good fit (e.g. OGB). I'm my own NPC alt.
Hal Morsh Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 401	Posted - 2015.09.06 12:10:14 - [30] - Quote I just don't like competing against other players wallets. I had a mobile game for spending on, they would have some shiny goodies once in a while. I used to play something called battle nations, and spent money. Then candycrush bought them out and completely abandoned the game. So I go to Gamelofts dungeon hunter series, and once my armor is about as high as it's going to get I spend 10$ on energy refills (yeah you use energy to play >_>) to earn enough points for an event armor, but AS IT TURNS OUT you have to at the same time compete against other peoples wallets on the leaderboard for only this event in order to upgrade the armor to any usefulness. So I may be done with that game shortly. In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell. I can say i'm glad we have plex to counter chinese isk sellers but alts are more OP than any amount of isk in the game. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 847	Posted - 2015.09.07 02:56:16 - [31] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I just don't like competing against other players wallets. I had a mobile game for spending on, they would have some shiny goodies once in a while. I used to play something called battle nations, and spent money. Then candycrush bought them out and completely abandoned the game. So I go to Gamelofts dungeon hunter series, and once my armor is about as high as it's going to get I spend 10$ on energy refills (yeah you use energy to play >_>) to earn enough points for an event armor, but AS IT TURNS OUT you have to at the same time compete against other peoples wallets on the leaderboard for only this event in order to upgrade the armor to any usefulness. So I may be done with that game shortly. In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell. I can say i'm glad we have plex to counter chinese isk sellers but alts are more OP than any amount of isk in the game. TL;DR I'm a limp-wristed player that can't face REAL competition and would rather play tic-tac-toe on easy mode. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 627	Posted - 2015.09.07 05:18:08 - [32] - Quote Yang Aurilen wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: I just don't like competing against other players wallets. I had a mobile game for spending on, they would have some shiny goodies once in a while. I used to play something called battle nations, and spent money. Then candycrush bought them out and completely abandoned the game. So I go to Gamelofts dungeon hunter series, and once my armor is about as high as it's going to get I spend 10$ on energy refills (yeah you use energy to play >_>) to earn enough points for an event armor, but AS IT TURNS OUT you have to at the same time compete against other peoples wallets on the leaderboard for only this event in order to upgrade the armor to any usefulness. So I may be done with that game shortly. In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell. I can say i'm glad we have plex to counter chinese isk sellers but alts are more OP than any amount of isk in the game. TL;DR I'm a limp-wristed player that can't face REAL competition and would rather play tic-tac-toe on easy mode. We had this argument in another thread, and I won. Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win, it has nothing to do with intelligence or skill. You are literally shelling out real world cash to buy an advantage over other players. EVE is a game which is now utterly reliant on alts and multiboxing to be competitive. Alts mitigate risk and negate mechanical consequences (see -10 ganking alts) in a whole host of ways and those advantages are obtained simply by giving CCP more cash. Your statement is accurate if reversed - people use alts to make the game LESS competitive for themselves; they are a shortcut and a substitute for actual skill, intelligence, and cooperation with other players. Obviously, this is the way EVE is and will remain. Much of the veteran player base is dependent on alts, and as another poster noted, there are too many menial tasks which don't make sense to be performed full-time by independent human players. This fact, however, hardly renders incorrect the complementary fact that the game of alts / multiboxing arms race results in a game where player skill both at the game and at interacting with others (which should be the deciding factor in an MMO) take a secondary place to the question of how much one is willing to invest per month to bring additional "units" into the equation in the EVE meta game that sometimes seems more reminiscent of an RTS than an MMO. Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 627	Posted - 2015.09.07 05:32:46 - [33] - Quote The detriment vs. convenience question is irrelevant now. The game has evolved along certain lines to where the operation of many accounts is an integral part of the game for quite a few players. It's too late to change that.
Yarda Black Militaris Industries Northern Coalition. 804	Posted - 2015.09.07 05:45:01 - [34] - Quote Not making ISK somewhere isn't the same as not using the system. This "Russian" is using "his" space to drop on people. Seems more interesting then just sitting there in an Ishtar orbiting your drones and "inhabiting" a system.
Divine Entervention Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing 604	Posted - 2015.09.07 06:41:10 - [35] - Quote alts make the game playable. It's nice not having to depend on others, being able to do everything yourself. Other people are a hassle.
May Arethusa SessionChange 55	Posted - 2015.09.07 06:43:45 - [36] - Quote Another thread where you rant about (stupid) reasons you don't want to fight people? Go back to HS already.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39951	Posted - 2015.09.07 06:53:14 - [37] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: The detriment vs. convenience question is irrelevant now. The game has evolved along certain lines to where the operation of many accounts is an integral part of the game for quite a few players. It's too late to change that. 64% of players have only 1 account 86% of players have 2 or less accounts It's not as big of an issue as we often assume. Significantly more than half the player base has just the one account.* *there is some guest inaction around that because CCP used to prevent multiple accounts from the same email address, but the error results in an estimate average of 1.35 - 1.65 accounts per player. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7141	Posted - 2015.09.07 07:09:06 - [38] - Quote Vollhov wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: I guess that would be an addition to EVE. I recommend relocation. Do not fk with the Russians. They have motivation, perseverance and an attitude that takes what happens in EVE on personal level that is orders above and beyond what the rest of us consider worthwhile. On the otherhand, if you are so inclined. if you manage to defeat a Russian EVE player, you can be sure he has smashed his keyboard to pieces in abject rage. After that, prepare for a life-long vendetta, as he will remain in EVE for as long as he is alive, just to spite and attack you. Their reputation is very real, and very deserved. And monitor. Mouse we throw out the window. And don't click on any links they provide in local or any channel. That "find your IP address and DDOS your IP address/your node via tracert" is older than CCP's warning against using it. The first I heard of it being used was from someone in NPC null giving some Russians a hard time. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1381	Posted - 2015.09.07 07:40:14 - [39] - Quote The good thing with EvE is that everybody can define their own "win" condition. If multiboxers feel good at dropping on solo players with overwhelming force then let them have their fun, nobody is forced to take such a fight on a disadvantage. I'm my own NPC alt.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2015.09.07 07:46:55 - [40] - Quote Eve is a hyper-competitive (yay capitalism) full time pvp game. In PvP it is almost always decided by which side is the most resourceful and player numbers are one of the most important resources. You can't really blame people for using alts to try and level the playing field because you are likely to get outnumbered flying solo. Yes player characters are better than alts but in the absence of friends, alts are the next best thing. A case for more AoE in EvE
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 1574	Posted - 2015.09.07 08:42:04 - [41] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement. Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally. Is that pay-to-win? I guess also in a sense as he who has the most friends/accounts has an advantage. But then by that definition the whole game is pay-to-win. The Imperium has the most players (and accounts) and their dominance in-game is a direct result of that. Because of their size, they are paying CCP the largest share of subscription revenue and these numbers give them an in-game advantage when they bring them to bear on a rival. Winning in the sandbox is not only dependent on your ship piloting skill, your skill points, and your in game wealth. It very much depends on who you are flying with. Whether that is an alt or a friend is somewhat inconsequential - your ability to make social connections and bring multiple accounts to a situation will dictate how successful you are at it. That is just the type of game Eve is by design. Crying about losing to someone who has more support (friends or alts) isn't going to change anything - you still lost.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2015.09.07 10:56:14 - [42] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally. ^ this This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand. A case for more AoE in EvE
Hal Morsh Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 404	Posted - 2015.09.07 11:16:30 - [43] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: Another thread where you rant about (stupid) reasons you don't want to fight people? Go back to HS already. This argument wasn't a whole lot different when I was an NPC corp, it's irrelevant. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Delt0r Garsk Shits N Giggles 427	Posted - 2015.09.07 12:24:07 - [44] - Quote The only way to not have n+1 combat is to get the sand out of the sand box and add lots of stupid restrictions and mechanics on PvP interactions. n+1 combat encourages alts. But dam it bloody hard to fly even a few ships at once esp if they are different. I was flying a tackle hauler, a falcon and a gila the other day and i derpped so bad i didn't get my kill. And lets be honest. WoW and all their kin absolutely have alts. It is in fact very hard to prevent it. The free to play ones have crazy numbers of em. Long story short. Single shard sandbox means alts. Death and Glory! Well fun is also good.
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 848	Posted - 2015.09.07 12:53:28 - [45] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Yang Aurilen wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: I just don't like competing against other players wallets. I had a mobile game for spending on, they would have some shiny goodies once in a while. I used to play something called battle nations, and spent money. Then candycrush bought them out and completely abandoned the game. So I go to Gamelofts dungeon hunter series, and once my armor is about as high as it's going to get I spend 10$ on energy refills (yeah you use energy to play >_>) to earn enough points for an event armor, but AS IT TURNS OUT you have to at the same time compete against other peoples wallets on the leaderboard for only this event in order to upgrade the armor to any usefulness. So I may be done with that game shortly. In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell. I can say i'm glad we have plex to counter chinese isk sellers but alts are more OP than any amount of isk in the game. TL;DR I'm a limp-wristed player that can't face REAL competition and would rather play tic-tac-toe on easy mode. We had this argument in another thread, and I won. Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win, it has nothing to do with intelligence or skill. You are literally shelling out real world cash to buy an advantage over other players. EVE is a game which is now utterly reliant on alts and multiboxing to be competitive. Alts mitigate risk and negate mechanical consequences (see -10 ganking alts) in a whole host of ways and those advantages are obtained simply by giving CCP more cash. Your statement is accurate if reversed - people use alts to make the game LESS competitive for themselves; they are a shortcut and a substitute for actual skill, intelligence, and cooperation with other players. Obviously, this is the way EVE is and will remain. Much of the veteran player base is dependent on alts, and as another poster noted, there are too many menial tasks which don't make sense to be performed full-time by independent human players. This fact, however, hardly renders incorrect the complementary fact that the game of alts / multiboxing arms race results in a game where player skill both at the game and at interacting with others (which should be the deciding factor in an MMO) take a secondary place to the question of how much one is willing to invest per month to bring additional "units" into the equation in the EVE meta game that sometimes seems more reminiscent of an RTS than an MMO. Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement. Are you confusing me for Legatus? Because it's not my style to do ping pong ding dong arguments that create 10 pages of nothing but us talking each other down. And no I'm not telling him he's "not good" for not having alts. I'm telling him he's bad at EVE AND that other game he was playing because he can't handle real problems and would rather whine and moan about it on the forums like some entitled carebear that thinks that if he can't solve it no one can and should be nerfed. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11636	Posted - 2015.09.07 12:59:42 - [46] - Quote I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread? Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 848	Posted - 2015.09.07 13:06:25 - [47] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread? It's always grr goons. You should know that by now. Miner ganked? Grr goons. Margin trading scam? Grr goons. Socket closed at that worst time? Grr goons. See a goon in system? Grr goons. See someone from Red Alliance typing stuff in cyrillic? Also grr goons. Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it. Fired from your job? It's all The Mittani's fault! Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Vollhov Senators of Eridan Red Alliance 223	Posted - 2015.09.07 13:10:32 - [48] - Quote Yes blame for everything Russian. But do not worry. Of us become ever less in the game. Jamyl Sarum "Good and evil" Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One" Jamyl Sarum
Lulu Lunette Blue Aurochs United Systems of Aridia 71	Posted - 2015.09.07 13:12:53 - [49] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread? Grr alts! Should have been enough intel from OP first encounter to maybe spring a trap of his own. @lunettelulu7
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16997	Posted - 2015.09.07 14:11:28 - [50] - Quote Yang Aurilen wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: I can't tell is this a grrr Russians , grrr Alts or grrr Russian alts thread? It's always grr goons. You should know that by now. Miner ganked? Grr goons. Margin trading scam? Grr goons. Socket closed at that worst time? Grr goons. See a goon in system? Grr goons. See someone from Red Alliance typing stuff in cyrillic? Also grr goons. Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it. Fired from your job? It's all The Mittani's fault! That last one was probably Digi, not mittens. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6831	Posted - 2015.09.07 16:24:59 - [51] - Quote Yang Aurilen wrote: Wife left you for someone? Probably boat did it. Boat is very hot, after all. Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall. We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
Leeluvv Polarized 35	Posted - 2015.09.07 18:01:54 - [52] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: ...In EVE I am competing against multiple accounts, which is frustrating as all hell... I don't understand this whine at all, you are playing a MMO against everyone that isn't on your side. If you're playing solo, then you're in the wrong game and your throwing your ego against everyone else's. Top tip: You'll lose. Also, I have 2 accounts, one of which I haven't logged on in 2 months and I pay for both in cash; however, I farmed 1.6 Billion ISK over the weekend. Making ISK to pay for another account is no different to making ISK to buy a deadspace mod. Both give you an advantage within the rules of the game. The fact you don't like the rules isn't our or CCP's problem, it's yours. Live with it or leave, your choice.
Leeluvv Polarized 35	Posted - 2015.09.07 18:03:25 - [53] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: ...Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win... So, playing against more than 1 account is pay to win? If it's 3 people on a LAN one day and one person multi-boxing 3 accounts the next, how does this make one pay to win and the other not?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6833	Posted - 2015.09.07 19:53:49 - [54] - Quote Leeluvv wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: ...Multiboxing very much meets the definition of pay to win... So, playing against more than 1 account is pay to win? If it's 3 people on a LAN one day and one person multi-boxing 3 accounts the next, how does this make one pay to win and the other not? Call it "Play to win" (note: the win is divided among the three people) Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall. We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
Zihao Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 50	Posted - 2015.09.07 19:55:43 - [55] - Quote They're both pay-to-win and pay-to-win is fine because productive people trade their time, doing work, for money. So faulting them for wanting to convert some of that money into game fun is just the envy of players who slave away earning isk at the equivalent of a few cents an hour.. Hope that clears things up here.
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2015.09.07 20:00:32 - [56] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Tipa Riot wrote: Think he was not in Horde when that happened. OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight. Unless they are broadcasting, perfect ranges with perfectly timed alphas and perfect logi repairs can be better from alts. However, this is an aspect of EVE, if it is unfair, harsh then you need to find tools, ships and people to even the balance or overwhelm them in return. I would love to see someone who can run perfect ranges, perfectly timed alphas and perfect logistics with an army of alts. Because repeaters and anything that gives a similar advantage is banned (round robin, macros, videofx,etc). So if they are pulling that stuff perfectly they are either an amazing cheater or a godlike player that would pwn you regardless of alts. I say amazing cheater because even when repeaters were allowed being that perfect was unlikely. Although one second server ticks do give you a fairly large margin of error. What's funny is here https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/ CCP Quant posted data showing that the average eve player has 1.5 accounts. So once again people on the forums are vastly wrong with their estimates involving the eve player base... This time on the number of alts the average eve player has. So you're looking for a problem that doesn't really exist 95% of the time.
Estevan Valladares WorldTradersGuild.Com 16	Posted - 2015.09.07 21:03:21 - [57] - Quote Vollhov wrote: Estevan Valladares wrote: Vollhov wrote: Angry Russian pilot Russian pilot One thing I could never really understand is how in EVE fiction pilots are in the ship. CCP cinematics used to show you in what gives name to the HYDROSTATIC CAPSULE (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsule) but at the same time, they had it shown in other cinematics the capsuleer in front of a screen seated on a chair, which is not featured in the Capitains Quarters when you see the capsule opened. Also, they imply since day one that you are faster and more agile than regular pilots because that plugs on your back are a direct link to your nervous system to the ship you flying, which is also not shown in the regular cinematics. Now to the point: FOR THAT REASON IS IT NEEDED TO PUT THAT HAT TO MAKE THE PILOT RUSSIAN and therefore you need him to be fully dressed and seated, or it is just plain racist ? It's simple. We have Russian their clones. Cloning of old drawings, which to us handed over Lord Falek. We can walk freely on the ship, drink vodka, dance with a bear and enjoy life. Sorry for my English I sense you are not russian ... lol WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Estevan Valladares WorldTradersGuild.Com 16	Posted - 2015.09.07 21:12:16 - [58] - Quote Kinete Jenius wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Tipa Riot wrote: Think he was not in Horde when that happened. OP, I'm not sure what the problem is here ... why bother whether the opposing side uses alts or not? A group of 5 real people should always be superior to an army of alts in a fight. Unless they are broadcasting, perfect ranges with perfectly timed alphas and perfect logi repairs can be better from alts. However, this is an aspect of EVE, if it is unfair, harsh then you need to find tools, ships and people to even the balance or overwhelm them in return. I would love to see someone who can run perfect ranges, perfectly timed alphas and perfect logistics with an army of alts. Because repeaters and anything that gives a similar advantage is banned (round robin, macros, videofx,etc). So if they are pulling that stuff perfectly they are either an amazing cheater or a godlike player that would pwn you regardless of alts. I say amazing cheater because even when repeaters were allowed being that perfect was unlikely. Although one second server ticks do give you a fairly large margin of error. What's funny is here https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/ CCP Quant posted data showing that the average eve player has 1.5 accounts. So once again people on the forums are vastly wrong with their estimates involving the eve player base... This time on the number of alts the average eve player has. So you're looking for a problem that doesn't really exist 95% of the time. The average person which has never multiboxed count as impossible what is simply a matter of training. Most of the times, non-multiboxers think that multiboxers play like a lot of single players, and that is impossible. "Dont try to bend the spoon, it is impossible. Instead, try to realize the truth: There is no spoon. And you see that what bends is just yourself." Not everyone bearing multiple accounts is a multiboxer, and not all multiboxers bear the number of accounts they use online at a given time. Alts is one thing, multiboxing another. What you say when you tell that multiboxing is impossible to achieve coordination and distinct inputs is the same as saying a person cannot play a accordion, or drive a car, or any other task that involves the same principle: Use one hand for one task and the other for another, without breaking timing. That is simple, and only requires focus and training. But what really hurts is the fact that people know that THERE IS NO WAY under the sun you can prevent that in a fashionable way for your business. CCP is just clever and dont try. If they wanted, they could do it the same way they prevent you from logging two trial accounts at the same computer. WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Vollhov Senators of Eridan Red Alliance 225	Posted - 2015.09.07 21:16:13 - [59] - Quote Estevan Valladares wrote: Vollhov wrote: Estevan Valladares wrote: Vollhov wrote: Angry Russian pilot Russian pilot One thing I could never really understand is how in EVE fiction pilots are in the ship. CCP cinematics used to show you in what gives name to the HYDROSTATIC CAPSULE (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsule) but at the same time, they had it shown in other cinematics the capsuleer in front of a screen seated on a chair, which is not featured in the Capitains Quarters when you see the capsule opened. Also, they imply since day one that you are faster and more agile than regular pilots because that plugs on your back are a direct link to your nervous system to the ship you flying, which is also not shown in the regular cinematics. Now to the point: FOR THAT REASON IS IT NEEDED TO PUT THAT HAT TO MAKE THE PILOT RUSSIAN and therefore you need him to be fully dressed and seated, or it is just plain racist ? It's simple. We have Russian their clones. Cloning of old drawings, which to us handed over Lord Falek. We can walk freely on the ship, drink vodka, dance with a bear and enjoy life. Sorry for my English I sense you are not russian ... lol Yet some Russian. I Amarr Russian I will reveal the secret how looks Russian capsuleer. Jamyl Sarum "Good and evil" Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One" Jamyl Sarum
Martin Corwin Emergente Struktur 39	Posted - 2015.09.07 23:19:51 - [60] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Leeluvv wrote: Think of it as paid for accounts, rather than alts. Now rephrase your complaint accordingly. pay2win and we all know plexes aren't pay to win. Differentiating how the money is earned to pay for an account is a red herring. In which currency you are getting paid to farm ISK doesn't matter.
Val'Dore PlanetCorp InterStellar 1009	Posted - 2015.09.08 01:22:34 - [61] - Quote I hate alts, I despise the concept so much, I've created one just to murder it over and over and over again. Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy. I invented Tiericide
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 80	Posted - 2015.09.08 02:37:50 - [62] - Quote Estevan Valladares wrote: The average person which has never multiboxed count as impossible what is simply a matter of training. Most of the times, non-multiboxers think that multiboxers play like a lot of single players, and that is impossible. "Dont try to bend the spoon, it is impossible. Instead, try to realize the truth: There is no spoon. And you see that what bends is just yourself." Not everyone bearing multiple accounts is a multiboxer, and not all multiboxers bear the number of accounts they use online at a given time. Alts is one thing, multiboxing another. What you say when you tell that multiboxing is impossible to achieve coordination and distinct inputs is the same as saying a person cannot play a accordion, or drive a car, or any other task that involves the same principle: Use one hand for one task and the other for another, without breaking timing. That is simple, and only requires focus and training. But what really hurts is the fact that people know that THERE IS NO WAY under the sun you can prevent that in a fashionable way for your business. CCP is just clever and dont try. If they wanted, they could do it the same way they prevent you from logging two trial accounts at the same computer. I've been boxing in some form or another since the days when CCP blocked making multiple accounts with the same email. I was one of those "evil" and hated isboxers my mains made a joke of PVE content and my gank/PVP alts steamrolled groups and individuals. Without the repeater you can't achieve perfect ranges, perfectly time alphas and perfect logi while engaged in combat with a player fleet. Your individual control suffers greatly when playing so many accounts at the same time. I start losing relative skill per account after hitting 4 accounts engaged. That's barely enough to have logi let alone have perfect alpha and such. Focus and training are one thing but the physical limits of the human body are the issue. You can train all day but in the end you only have two hands and two eyes. So at any moment you're only able to control two accounts at the same time. What was being described earlier required the use of a repeater or any variety of things that are now bannable. If you want to prove me wrong feel free to post a video of you running a fleet with perfect logi, perfectly timed alphas and perfectly controlled ranges while engaging a hostile player fleet. For the record I can log in multiple trial accounts on the same machine. It's trivial to do so. EDIT : I still box actually and I have a whole set of videos on my youtube channel as shown in my bio. For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ4LByLY5T4
Rykuss In Praise Of Bacchus 144	Posted - 2015.09.08 03:20:02 - [63] - Quote How many people would fly a super/titan or 23/7 cloaky camp a system if they had to do it on the one account, one character model? Any takers? Rather than have these ridiculous nerfs to address cap proliferation and even dumber suggestions to address cloaky campers, the one account, one character model could have prevented a lot of problems with the game. Alts and Plex put cash into CCP's pocket, sure, but let's not pretend they are good for the game. Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother. You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 631	Posted - 2015.09.08 03:26:47 - [64] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Telling people they're not good at the game because they didn't spend as much real world cash on alts/additional accounts as their competitor, is a fundamentally idiotic statement. Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally. Is that pay-to-win? I guess also in a sense as he who has the most friends/accounts has an advantage. But then by that definition the whole game is pay-to-win. The Imperium has the most players (and accounts) and their dominance in-game is a direct result of that. Because of their size, they are paying CCP the largest share of subscription revenue and these numbers give them an in-game advantage when they bring them to bear on a rival. Winning in the sandbox is not only dependent on your ship piloting skill, your skill points, and your in game wealth. It very much depends on who you are flying with. Whether that is an alt or a friend is somewhat inconsequential - your ability to make social connections and bring multiple accounts to a situation will dictate how successful you are at it. That is just the type of game Eve is by design. Crying about losing to someone who has more support (friends or alts) isn't going to change anything - you still lost. You must have missed the part where I noted the difference between bringing more friends, and bringing more alts. There is a critical difference between the two which you either miss or conveniently gloss over. Having friends in an MMO is not pay to win. Having a gang composed of your own alts which are at your call 24/7, under your complete control and not subject to any of the issues arising from relationships/cooperation between human players; this converts an MMO into an RTS where you pay cash for more units and insulate yourself from one of the (allegedly) key components of an MMO - the need to cooperate with others to achieve success in most situations. You don't draw a distinction between 10 players cooperating to achieve a goal or 1 player with 9 alts controlling them all towards the same goal, and you don't see that one of those options is obviously better for the game. At least, that is the impression I get from your comment.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 631	Posted - 2015.09.08 03:29:34 - [65] - Quote Mr Mieyli wrote: Black Pedro wrote: Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally. ^ this This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand. And buy alts. At the very least a scout/OGB capable alt, and then at least 2 logi/DPS alts if possible.
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 849	Posted - 2015.09.08 03:31:08 - [66] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Mr Mieyli wrote: Black Pedro wrote: Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally. ^ this This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand. And buy alts. At the very least a scout/OGB capable alt, and then at least 2 logi/DPS alts if possible. 0/10 Solo PVP'er no falcon alt and alt in a batphonable alliance to drop caps on anything that escalates would not even consensual solo pvp with for the sole purpose of GUD FITES. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 631	Posted - 2015.09.08 03:37:59 - [67] - Quote Yang Aurilen wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Mr Mieyli wrote: Black Pedro wrote: Eve isn't fair. It was designed that way so basically numbers are the prime factor determining the outcome of a fight. If I bring 10 friends and you bring 1, I will likely win. Are you "not good" at the game if you lose in that situation? In a sense yes, as I was able to outmaneuver you in the sandbox by bringing more friends, but you shouldn't take such a loss so personally. ^ this This is the biggest problem with new players IMO, losses happen to everyone don't take it personally. Eve has a relatively low in-fight skillcap meaning that most of the "skill" is in the preparation. If you want to show your skill in eve you need to pick your fights wisely and trick your enemy into thinking he has the upper hand. And buy alts. At the very least a scout/OGB capable alt, and then at least 2 logi/DPS alts if possible. 0/10 Solo PVP'er no falcon alt and alt in a batphonable alliance to drop caps on anything that escalates would not even consensual solo pvp with for the sole purpose of GUD FITES. Aye my bad I forgot the falcon. I thought of throwing in that your DPS/logi alts should be training for triage/dreads once they're solid in subcap support, but found that slightly excessive.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 631	Posted - 2015.09.08 03:40:53 - [68] - Quote Zihao wrote: They're both pay-to-win and pay-to-win is fine because productive people trade their time, doing work, for money. So faulting them for wanting to convert some of that money into game fun is just the envy of players who slave away earning isk at the equivalent of a few cents an hour.. Hope that clears things up here. What's the point of playing a game if the only thing that matters is the size of your out of game bank account? I don't want to play against your bank account. I want to play against your intelligence, skill, and capacity for relationship-building within this particular virtual world. I understand if your idea of fun is dropping cash to effortlessly slaughter people in a video game, I just think that attitude is utterly horrible for gaming as a whole. It destroys the point of the entire exercise.
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 80	Posted - 2015.09.08 03:45:24 - [69] - Quote Rykuss wrote: How many people would fly a super/titan or 23/7 cloaky camp a system if they had to do it on the one account, one character model? Any takers? Rather than have these ridiculous nerfs to address cap proliferation and even dumber suggestions to address cloaky campers, the one account, one character model could have prevented a lot of problems with the game. Alts and Plex put cash into CCP's pocket, sure, but let's not pretend they are good for the game. Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother. Plex killed the gold spammers and thank god for that.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6833	Posted - 2015.09.08 04:17:13 - [70] - Quote Rykuss wrote: Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother. Same for blue lists, which are killing eve Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall. We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 849	Posted - 2015.09.08 04:34:00 - [71] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Rykuss wrote: Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother. Same for blue lists, which are killing eve Nerf friends and corpmates. They are totally killing EVE because the other side had friends or alts that killed me. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Salvos Rhoska 1375	Posted - 2015.09.08 06:11:41 - [72] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Rykuss wrote: Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother. Same for blue lists, which are killing eve Thanks for acknowledging. You are now on record for having said this. ------------
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 1576	Posted - 2015.09.08 06:22:08 - [73] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: You must have missed the part where I noted the difference between bringing more friends, and bringing more alts. There is a critical difference between the two which you either miss or conveniently gloss over. Having friends in an MMO is not pay to win. Having a gang composed of your own alts which are at your call 24/7, under your complete control and not subject to any of the issues arising from relationships/cooperation between human players; this converts an MMO into an RTS where you pay cash for more units and insulate yourself from one of the (allegedly) key components of an MMO - the need to cooperate with others to achieve success in most situations. You don't draw a distinction between 10 players cooperating to achieve a goal or 1 player with 9 alts controlling them all towards the same goal, and you don't see that one of those options is obviously better for the game. At least, that is the impression I get from your comment. No, you are missing my point. Eve is a sandbox game so bringing friends, alts, or bigger ships are perfectly valid strategies to beat your opponents in the sandbox. You are not entitled to a fair fight in Eve. You are not entitled to "be left alone" when have your skirmish with your enemy unmolested by the other players in the sandbox. If you find yourself outclassed, there are many ways you can beat your opponents in the sandbox. You can try to trick them, change ships, ship up to a more powerful ship, or you can call in friends or log in alts - the difference is nearly immaterial from the perspective of your opponent, If you win, you are "better at Eve" because you have won that engagement while your opponent is "not as good" as you because they lost. This was your point I was addressing. As to whether the game would be better without the possibility of alts, I do agree with you. Encouraging players to team up with other, real players is good for the game, and minimizing the need for alts should be a consideration for the continued development of the game. Everything, not just combat, should not simply scale with the number of accounts you have or it makes for a more boring game. But your enemy bringing friends will always be a very powerful strategy and from your perspective, there is little difference between the two. Regardless, alts are a legal and valid strategy in the sandbox anyway. Crying that you "aren't bad" and it's "pay-to-win" because you lose to to someone bringing more ships (alts or friends) is just burying your head in the sand. Everyone has to lose from time-to-time, and in the sandbox sometimes you lose in situations you had little chance of winning. There is no need to take the loss so personally - there is no shame in being outmaneuvered, especially by a more powerful opponent who has all the advantages as such fight are quite common in Eve.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1383	Posted - 2015.09.08 07:29:40 - [74] - Quote Rykuss wrote: Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother. Sure, but the point is, does it matter in-game? For those using payed alts and expensive "gear" this may feel as pay-to-win their game, which is good as this keeps them paying, but their "win" definition is just pointless for others. Balancing the in-game sandbox with the inevitable meta game is a difficult job, done well by CCP. They would have a hard time to successfully restrict the usage of alts, better to officially charge for it and balance the game considering their usage. I'm my own NPC alt.
Rykuss In Praise Of Bacchus 145	Posted - 2015.09.08 14:18:45 - [75] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Rykuss wrote: Alts and Plex offer an advantage, period. If they didn't, no one would bother. Same for blue lists, which are killing eve Nerf the friendship! Tipa Riot wrote: Sure, but the point is, does it matter in-game? For those using payed alts and expensive "gear" this may feel as pay-to-win their game, which is good as this keeps them paying, but their "win" definition is just pointless for others. Balancing the in-game sandbox with the inevitable meta game is a difficult job, done well by CCP. They would have a hard time to successfully restrict the usage of alts, better to officially charge for it and balance the game considering their usage. Well, there's that whole butterfly effect thing and the "I was there" campaign to consider. Notice I didn't say "My alt was there". You're right, of course, and I don't foresee CCP putting the cat back in the bag. A dev would need to weigh in here, to be sure, but I have to wonder why all of the restrictions placed on supers/titans were deemed necessary in the first place. It's almost as if CCP were trying to discourage their proliferation, now marginalized by parking an alt in them and logging off until needed. Kinete Jenius wrote: Plex killed the gold spammers and thank god for that. Actually, I'd wager that the "report ISK spammer" feature played a larger role in that. You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 631	Posted - 2015.09.09 04:58:12 - [76] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: You must have missed the part where I noted the difference between bringing more friends, and bringing more alts. There is a critical difference between the two which you either miss or conveniently gloss over. Having friends in an MMO is not pay to win. Having a gang composed of your own alts which are at your call 24/7, under your complete control and not subject to any of the issues arising from relationships/cooperation between human players; this converts an MMO into an RTS where you pay cash for more units and insulate yourself from one of the (allegedly) key components of an MMO - the need to cooperate with others to achieve success in most situations. You don't draw a distinction between 10 players cooperating to achieve a goal or 1 player with 9 alts controlling them all towards the same goal, and you don't see that one of those options is obviously better for the game. At least, that is the impression I get from your comment. No, you are missing my point. Eve is a sandbox game so bringing friends, alts, or bigger ships are perfectly valid strategies to beat your opponents in the sandbox. You are not entitled to a fair fight in Eve. You are not entitled to "be left alone" when have your skirmish with your enemy unmolested by the other players in the sandbox. If you find yourself outclassed, there are many ways you can beat your opponents in the sandbox. You can try to trick them, change ships, ship up to a more powerful ship, or you can call in friends or log in alts - the difference is nearly immaterial from the perspective of your opponent, If you win, you are "better at Eve" because you have won that engagement while your opponent is "not as good" as you because they lost. This was your point I was addressing. As to whether the game would be better without the possibility of alts, I do agree with you. Encouraging players to team up with other, real players is good for the game, and minimizing the need for alts should be a consideration for the continued development of the game. Everything, not just combat, should not simply scale with the number of accounts you have or it makes for a more boring game. But your enemy bringing friends will always be a very powerful strategy and from your perspective, there is little difference between the two. Regardless, alts are a legal and valid strategy in the sandbox anyway. Crying that you "aren't bad" and it's "pay-to-win" because you lose to to someone bringing more ships (alts or friends) is just burying your head in the sand. Everyone has to lose from time-to-time, and in the sandbox sometimes you lose in situations you had little chance of winning. There is no need to take the loss so personally - there is no shame in being outmaneuvered, especially by a more powerful opponent who has all the advantages as such fight are quite common in Eve. I have no problem losing because I was outplayed within the context of the "sandbox." I do get annoyed when I lose because someone spends more cash on the game than me. Just like I'd be annoyed if I were playing Battlefield and EA was selling people special equipment only available as a DLC purpose. I have a fundamental dislike of in-game advantages purchased with real life cash. I want to play against your competence within the sandbox, not your wallet outside of it. If my only option is to match your spending or avoid you, that's frankly a pretty broken situation.

Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.