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Money = Power Pt 2

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Commander Solo Caldari Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.19 17:27:00 - [31] Merc's in this kind of situation are a short term solution to a long term problem. The inital shock and awe aspect of most mercenary contracts are enough to buy time to prepare for an unexpected and on going conflict. If the employer does not make the improvements and changes required to ensure the longterm stability of the alliance through defence, or agression. The contract and whatever its outcome is nothing more than a time out.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.19 18:02:00 - [32] Since we have essentially already had this thread lets wait and see what happens after ISS is forced to pay for the mercs for 2 months and then IAC comes back. Then we can see if the power of ISK works and have a new thread :P The Enemy's Gate is Down
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2006.12.19 18:05:00 - [33] Money is nice, and it sure helps a lot, but in the grand scheme of this game it's far less relevant then you make it appear. EVE is pretty slow paced. Training up a proper PVP pilot takes about 6 months to a year, depending on what specialisation you choose. Forming a 0.0 corp that can rival established ones might take a year or longer. All that ISK for mercs does is accelerate or slow down a force, it will never stop it entirely if the 'victims' dont let them to. The way I see it, this whole affair related to IAC will only make em stronger. The people with no heart for the Alliance will probably leave IAC should they lose their stations, so that is a lot of risk and deadweight to the Alliance removed. The remaining ones will have a strong history that will bind them much more then any recruitment speech of their respective corporation could give them. Regardless of what you throw against someone ISK wise, if they intend to stick together and have proper leadership, you will only end up making them stronger.
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 18:10:00 - [34] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Omeega wins this thread. Agree'ed Pwned Rob one time... Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Toman Torax Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Raid ...we have an interest in seeing...IAC die. You'd really love that, wouldn't you? Ain't gonna happen. (combat) Your Inferno Torpedo hits Taisu Magdesh, doing 604.5 damage.
Xeriuz Caldari The Puppet Masters.	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:37:00 - [36] Originally by: KIAEddZ Originally by: Omeega Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. What if MC/KIA/OO + friends were hired for 6 months..... you think this is impossible? Because I tell you now it certainly isn't. I am not a natural capatilist, but ISK = anything is possible. who are "OO"? thanks ______________________________________________ X You Never Know What You Have Until You Lose It
Excesse The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:47:00 - [37] SOD are having fun with our merc invasion too btw! xx
Dra0cht	Posted - 2006.12.19 22:04:00 - [38] Originally by: Omeega Don't ever mistake the ability to hire alot of mercs to take someone's stations for a permanent solution to your problem. Taking an alliance's space is only a definite 'win' if said alliance is left in no shape to retaliate at a later date. Mercs are a temporary solution, and always will be. In the end, your ability to devestate rather then just remove your enemy is key if you're loking for a permanent solution. Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. Anyone copying this text is a fool! Yes, exactly! Now the real reason I quoted you, that sig, totally and utterly owns
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.19 22:23:00 - [39] Edited by: Baun on 19/12/2006 22:23:05 Originally by: Xeriuz Originally by: KIAEddZ Originally by: Omeega Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. What if MC/KIA/OO + friends were hired for 6 months..... you think this is impossible? Because I tell you now it certainly isn't. I am not a natural capatilist, but ISK = anything is possible. who are "OO"? thanks I assume he means omniscient order. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.19 22:35:00 - [40] money is purely defensive.
War Bear Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:10:00 - [41] Originally by: n sx Merc's serve a purpose in EVE and in this case, the sheer number of them goes a long way to guaranteeing their success. My only question to them is, is it purely the ISK that you will sell yourself to or is there any moral standing that you will not undertake? I'd personally kill the psycho kitten in Crovans sig for a cheeseburger, fries and a coke. No matter where you go, there you are.
Kaleeb S.Y.N.D.R.O.M.E.	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:29:00 - [42] /me rattles tin in direction of rich people
MeatwagonUK M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Lowa Personally I like ISK. Pure, clean, crisp ISK. That I can roll around nekkid in. Glorious! Money is power, money has the power to change. For good and for bad. Always has been, always will be. No matter what reality you are in. Just look outside EVE, its not like its "good will" that runs the world. Sad but true. Regards, Lowa Ok so Lowa is one of the 250bil wallet guys :p
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:31:00 - [44] I don't get the impression it was the MC that was decisive in the recent IAC abuse though. It looked more like it was the addition of LV to the mix that really turned the tables. MC is strong, but already demonstrated once that they alone were not enough to put IAC down. None of the other merc groups involved appear to have anything near their level of muscle.
Der Pfaffe KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:22:00 - [45] Originally by: n sx .....snip some interesting stuff. Merc's serve a purpose in EVE and in this case, the sheer number of them goes a long way to guaranteeing their success. My only question to them is, is it purely the ISK that you will sell yourself to or is there any moral standing that you will not undertake? It's been said many times, but I think generally it's fair to say that your average merc is not in it for the Isk. Most of the Isk our corp is paid is reinvested back into the corp to buy capital ships, POS gear and various other pieces of kit that any modern merc corp now has to equip itself with if it wants to compete in the marketplace. As for moral issues... Well I can't see myself or many others in KIA ever fighting on behalf pirates for example, but an entity claiming the moral high ground by stating that it is "neutral" would not exclude it from our target list if we were engaged to attack it. Originally by: n sx IAC's pilots fight from their own wallets, with ISK they earn on their own and for that I am forever indebted with their presence. I said it in another thread, and I will stand by it now that ISK will never buy you honour, glory or respect - that you need to earn the hard way. This is exactly what KIA's pilots do, apart from the odd contract award. This is why we have downtime between contracts. We replenish our wallets by (dare I say it) mining and mission running (I have to replace those shiney ships I keep losing somehow). While I'm not terribly interested in glory, I certainly consider myself to be honourable (in the RP sense) and respect is a relative concept. I doubt that anybody actually believes that these latter come from having lots of Isk. As to the OP's original point, while it is fair to say that Mercs will not occupy space permanently (unless they intend taking for themselves of course), in this particular case they, (and by default the Isk they were paid), have affected the EVE landscape. Had they not been employed ISS may have ceased to exist, and while it is unlikely that IAC will disappear as an entity, they may well be forced to look for a diplomatic solution to the war. The very fact that ISS has shown itself willing to pay out what is undoubtedly several billion Isk to defend itself will probably deter others from taking it on in the future, thereby guaranteeing it's continuing existence. Some good points have been made about the use of Mercs in this thread. However, I feel that the OP's points are still valid as he is not talking about Mercs going in and smashing alliances overnight so to speak, although that has been done. One example is the selective use of Mercs to bolster a client's own capital fleet to take over a key system. The client's own forces would then be responsible for holding it. The Mercs withdraw until called upon to "rinse and repeat" as the client alliance advances. A slow process perhaps, but one which could, in time, lead to an alliance's demise. So mercs and therefore Isk can have a permanent effect the EVE landscape.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:26:00 - [46] There isn't enough merc corps worth a **** to go around, they will always be the exception, not the rule. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
Asylum Seaker Minmatar RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:32:00 - [47] ISK is one road to power, but not the only. People fight for money, but also for ideas, fun, out of fear or because they're sadistic. A charismatic leader or group of leaders can hold an army together just as easily as the promise of cash, and perhaps more sustainably. And to be honest, I think the average player would get bored of being rich. It takes the edge out of the game. Memento Mori.
Mad'Mike Banks Godspeed You Black Emperor	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:37:00 - [48] Wish i had 2bill
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.20 11:11:00 - [49] ISK can be equal to power, thats very true. Im quite convinced that ISS and their campaign against IAC is doomed to failure. In the end they and their investors will be out of pocket quite a bit and have achieved very little. IAC and its pilots will in large part remain and have even more reasons to make life as difficult for ISS as possible. We will see I guess. The most amusing part of this is the continuing transformation of the once proud FIX into mercenary cannon fodder, sort of Diet MCÖ. I guess renting space from BoB made the FIX leadership realize that becoming rentboys themselves was no major transformation ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Hans Roaming Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 12:36:00 - [50] Originally by: Helmut 314 ISK can be equal to power, thats very true. Im quite convinced that ISS and their campaign against IAC is doomed to failure. In the end they and their investors will be out of pocket quite a bit and have achieved very little. IAC and its pilots will in large part remain and have even more reasons to make life as difficult for ISS as possible. We will see I guess. The most amusing part of this is the continuing transformation of the once proud FIX into mercenary cannon fodder, sort of Diet MCÖ. I guess renting space from BoB made the FIX leadership realize that becoming rentboys themselves was no major transformation Remember that ISS was aggressed by IAC with the leadership not being clear about not making a land grab for the ISS stations next door. With this in mind ISS who manages the publically owned stations had to defend themselves. The shareholders of the ISS stations also did not want to see their investment be taken by IAC. The best way to fight a war is on the enemies land and so you have the current situation of IAC being sieged, loosing POS daily and ISS on a course to gai n three new outposts for less than the price of constructing them. This will also allow them to make good on thier IPO of the alliance itself. Yes IAC pilots will be upset over this, however IAC pilots had ISS to -10 before ISS fought back and so there is even more incentive to deprive the enemy of their assets in 0.0 as well as the income to continue the war. There is assuming of course that all of current IAC pilots would be happy to still follow the leadership that managed to create this situation in the first place. Back to the OP, does ISK equal power? In ISSs case which is unique in EVE then yes I feel it does. There is the obvious employment of liquid funds to hire military might as can be seen with MC, Veto and KIA which any alliance can muster. However there is the unique situation of ISK that ISS has and that is that other alliances ISK is invested in thier alliance and assets. When IAC gave the perception they would take those ISS managed outposts suddenly they were attacking the assets of more than just ISS and hence you have the war and combatants as it stands now.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.12.20 12:38:00 - [51] Edited by: Wild Rho on 20/12/2006 12:39:27 Isk is an infinitely flexible tool, a means to an end and is useless if it's not being used. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:19:00 - [52] Yes Hans, its very convenient to fight wars with mercs and especially when other peoples money is paying for it... I still think this will come back and bite ISS hard in the butt without achieveing anything real. ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Sameth Technology Acquisition Collective Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:30:00 - [53] Sadly there is one flaw in your theories Eddz, the mercs havent done **** all pretty much in this war. Interceptors with fighters is about the real extent of it, all the real power has come from LV. Poor, poor MC, must be crying into their beer as what was a good chance to try and ressurect their rapidily failing reputation has been stolen by LV. Seleene loves to make flashy posts with pretty pictures but kudos to LV, they seem to be trying to get the job done and leaving the forum trolling to those who cant fight for real. Dont worry MC, of you post enough people might actually believe your still scary No doubt get my ass kicked for posting this, but hell, you cant help but laugh at the pretenders who just try so damn hard to seem like they actually matter.
Der Pfaffe KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:31:00 - [54] Originally by: Helmut 314 Yes Hans, its very convenient to fight wars with mercs and especially when other peoples money is paying for it... I still think this will come back and bite ISS hard in the butt without achieveing anything real. So you are saying that the probable gaining of three new outposts, and demonstrating to EVE that they will not roll-over easily is going to have a negative effect on people's investment decisions. I'd say the opposite is true. ISS are demonstrating that they will protect their shareholders' interests, allbeit that their dividends might suffer for a month or so. ISK is certainly power in this case and IAC are feeling the full weight of it.
Der Pfaffe KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Sameth Sadly there is one flaw in your theories Eddz, the mercs havent done **** all pretty much in this war. Interceptors with fighters is about the real extent of it, all the real power has come from LV. Snipped.... smacktard stuff A quick look at their KB would seem to contradict you, and of course flying around in a shuttle must have helped your alliance's war effort a lot.... Sorry couldn't resist it
maGz The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:57:00 - [56] Edited by: maGz on 20/12/2006 13:57:26 Originally by: Der Pfaffe Originally by: Sameth Sadly there is one flaw in your theories Eddz, the mercs havent done **** all pretty much in this war. Interceptors with fighters is about the real extent of it, all the real power has come from LV. Snipped.... smacktard stuff A quick look at their KB would seem to contradict you, and of course flying around in a shuttle must have helped your alliance's war effort a lot.... Sorry couldn't resist it I don't think he's referring to the amount of kills. I think he's referring to the actual capital fleet/attack on IAC stations. This has mainly been orchestrated by LV with MC sitting in their POS's with fighters assigned (MC dreads have appeared in F4/JBY, don't get me wrong). I'm not belittleling the performance of MC/KIA/FIX/Veto. however it is wrong to assume that they are the driving force behind this attack. ISK = power, but to think that hiring mercs would be enough to take down IAC is wrong. ____________ The Priory Killboard
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.20 16:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Der Pfaffe So you are saying that the probable gaining of three new outposts, and demonstrating to EVE that they will not roll-over easily is going to have a negative effect on people's investment decisions. I'd say the opposite is true. ISS are demonstrating that they will protect their shareholders' interests, allbeit that their dividends might suffer for a month or so. ISK is certainly power in this case and IAC are feeling the full weight of it. So youre saying that this is a sound business decision on ISS's part ? I thought wars of conquest didnt use to be part of ISS charter, but I guess things change... ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 16:45:00 - [58] Mercs are indeed a temporary solution, but they, and by induction ISK, open up a lot of options. If ISS truly has no occupation plan for IAC's outposts, then yes, it will be a short-lived victory. But I suspect they are clever enough to find a very lucrative arrangement for something as valuable as three outposts next door to what would have to be a major business partner in ISS. Maybe they package them up with their two stations and sell them to a bigger fish with deep pockets and add a few hundred bil to the corp coffers. Who knows. Whatever happens, I'm pretty sure they're not planning to say, "OK, show's over. Everyone run along now." They have a little more foresight than other parties. I seriously doubt IAC will be walking back in to unoccupied stations, and ISS will (assuming the siege continues on its current trajectory) have a lot of say in their new neighbors or have a very nice cashout for their efforts.
Julien Derida Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 17:04:00 - [59] Originally by: maGz I don't think he's referring to the amount of kills. I think he's referring to the actual capital fleet/attack on IAC stations. This has mainly been orchestrated by LV with MC sitting in their POS's with fighters assigned (MC dreads have appeared in F4/JBY, don't get me wrong). I'm not belittleling the performance of MC/KIA/FIX/Veto. however it is wrong to assume that they are the driving force behind this attack. ISK = power, but to think that hiring mercs would be enough to take down IAC is wrong. I think you're making a few shaky assumptions there maGz. How do you know who is 'orchestrating' the attacks, or who is the 'driving force' without being involved in the planning yourself? All you can see is the numbers. Obviously LV are going to be pretty numerous, as they are the largest alliance involved in this conflict. ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.20 17:23:00 - [60] Edited by: Butter Dog on 20/12/2006 17:23:42 Most of you have got this rather wrong. ISS are NOT paying FIX/UK/TYC/LV/KIA. They are there because they want IAC to die for their own reasons. ISK does buy shock troops like MC, to get specific objectives done. Their capital fleet is worth its weight in gold. But once ISS hold the stations, its game over for IAC. All this talk of 'they will be back for revenge' just makes me laugh. They are 80% industrial with a lot of young members, their staying power ends when their ability to make ISK in peace is removed. The thought of a few hardcore members basing out of Litom and becoming Priory-Lite doesnt worry anyone in ISS at all. We live with gank squads every day, its part of life in 0.0 and to suggest it will somehow bring ISS to its knees is comical. ------------- Be a part of EVE history - The 500bn ISS IPO.

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