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Money = Power Pt 2

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KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:51:00 - [1] A while back I raised a thread, in which I suggested that ISk = Power. This is the thread: http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=403563#5564853 There was some disagreement with my theory that someoone with a large amount of ISK could directly effect the landscape of Eve in a permanent manner. The debate was largely centered around what happens when the ISK runs out.... With the latest large scale war IAC vs ISS in place, it is interesting to see for the first time a real look at the power of ISK. There is 2 sources of ISK at play in this war, but essentially they are the same. There is ISS, and the amount of ISK they are paying to have MC come to work for them. It will be in the 10s of billions, but it is a drop in the ocean in reality. There are members of MC corps with 250 billion plus in their personal wallets, I am sure ISS has similar. I know the rough costings of the upper tier of Merc Corps, and I am sure that in reality ISS could afford without even noticing it to employ MC for 4-8 weeks. And of course could bring them back in at a notice with a decent sized retainer in place. There are also the investors, willing to protect their investment, much like the current employer of KIA. He sees that the 0.0 arena is taken care off, and thus KIA are on duty mopping up the Hubs so IAC resupplying is risky, and agent runners that we all know make the most noise when their gameplay is under threat. Those investors that want to ensure the safety of ISS and their investment are large in number, a factor it seems IAC didn't consider pre war deccing. On their own ISS would NO DOUBT fall to IAC. It would be a slaughtering, but with the power of ISK behind them, they are a force to be very reckoned with, and this reaction from them is a clear sign to anyone thinking of knocking on their door in the future. IAC cannot win this war, they must concede and make peace, or they will lose more than just a battle, their home is seriously under pressure. I personally feel that my original point in the original post still stands. If someone has a large quantity of ISK, they can effect the landscape of Eve in a dramatic way. Taking stations for resale, breaking morale of entire alliances, clearing POS, smashing logistics. All it needs is a desire and the resource, and except invention ;) anything is possible. Single people with a few 100 billion isk to spank, could end entire alliances..... the ball game is larger than just teh few big players we all know n love. Put simply "we have isk, and we are willing to use it" is a stand point that imho over time will begin to play more and more in the poilitics of Eve. As more and more Merc corps wake up, and the existing top guys grow in strength resource and numbers, the day when you wont even need an in house defense force are really not that far away. Interesting times indeed. KIA EVE Home
Omeega Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:56:00 - [2] Edited by: Omeega on 19/12/2006 13:59:37 Don't ever mistake the ability to hire alot of mercs to take someone's stations for a permanent solution to your problem. Taking an alliance's space is only a definite 'win' if said alliance is left in no shape to retaliate at a later date. Mercs are a temporary solution, and always will be. In the end, your ability to devestate rather then just remove your enemy is key if you're loking for a permanent solution. Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. Anyone copying this text is a fool! Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:58:00 - [3] Don't ever mistake the ability to hire alot of mercs to take someone's stations for a permanent solution to your problem. Taking an alliance's space is only a definite 'win' if said alliance is left in no shape to retaliate at a later date. Mercs are a temporary solution, and always will be. In the end, your ability to devestate rather then just remove your enemy is key if you're loking for a permanent solution. Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Omeega Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. What if MC/KIA/OO + friends were hired for 6 months..... you think this is impossible? Because I tell you now it certainly isn't. I am not a natural capatilist, but ISK = anything is possible. KIA EVE Home
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:11:00 - [5] I want to know who in the MC has 250 billion! I'll start begging them immediately, I only have 2.7 billion In EVE, isk does equal power, but there're also the intangibles you need to factor in: morale, leadership, a certain insanity that scares your opponents. These factors break alliances, not just monetary power. Almost every alliance that's fallen has been because of internal conflict and differing expectations and resolve among their members. That said, I always get a thrill when the wallet flashes and goesup several billion isk Also, Rod copying Omeega? Posting with the wrong character? _______________________________________________
Tjakka KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:16:00 - [6] Edited by: Tjakka on 19/12/2006 14:16:22 Eddz its time you go to work instat of spamming forum all day :P Mercs are a tehre to give the extra push in the back but can 90% of the time dont kick out a allaince forever because ppl dont have the isk to keep paying them. someone has to move in and keep the presure in like Omeega sad else its just a drop in the sea but if you do have the isk who knows
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:18:00 - [7] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 19/12/2006 14:19:33 Originally by: KIAEddZ Originally by: Omeega Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. What if MC/KIA/OO + friends were hired for 6 months..... you think this is impossible? Because I tell you now it certainly isn't. I am not a natural capatilist, but ISK = anything is possible. Taking a 6 month contract of which 5 months would be sitting around in a 0.0 npc region or empire hunting for small gangs and and npc'ers would break your corp Eddz. If IAC hold together, and if LV calls it a night when the IAC stations are taken, IAC are going to have the last laugh here, even if it'll cost them. edit: rofl Omeega Sorries, but they all knew AAA=BoB anyway Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
insanebe Caldari soni Corp Imperium Sonorumance	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:21:00 - [8] weren't ascn supposed to be one of the richest alliances in eve ....and weren't Curse alliance before that ? ....isk is a nice weapon but you need to know how to wield it knowledge is power.... guard it well
insanebe Caldari soni Corp Imperium Sonorumance	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:27:00 - [9] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 19/12/2006 14:19:33 Originally by: KIAEddZ Originally by: Omeega Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. What if MC/KIA/OO + friends were hired for 6 months..... you think this is impossible? Because I tell you now it certainly isn't. I am not a natural capatilist, but ISK = anything is possible. Taking a 6 month contract of which 5 months would be sitting around in a 0.0 npc region or empire hunting for small gangs and and npc'ers would break your corp Eddz. If IAC hold together, and if LV calls it a night when the IAC stations are taken, IAC are going to have the last laugh here, even if it'll cost them. edit: rofl Omeega Sorries, but they all knew AAA=BoB anyway they don't need to employ a single merc corp for 5-6 months i suppose no one has had the idea of rotating merc contracts ... i.e MC for 1 month, veto for the 2nd month but i doubt iss would bother with that cos they live with griefers 24x7, knowledge is power.... guard it well
Hermia HIVE	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:31:00 - [10] lets hope the gaming culture in eve recognises the power of economic fortitude and not just how many gun wielding maniacs you have. (actually the two go hand in hand in theory). i dont feel sorry for IAC at all, they went for (what they thought) easy targets to score that big win and claim dominance. Other alliances did this to "the big blue", i remember thinking how pathetic they are, especially after all the egotistical posts (mercs on payrol excape this ofcourse). Attacking smaller millitary forces isnt the way to increase your own image as a force to be reckoned with. Its damaging infact.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:37:00 - [11] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 19/12/2006 14:39:39 No merc corp in Eve is currently capable of handling any of the medium to big allainces on their own, bar maybe the MC. So much for rotating. Sure, isk is power. But to use it you need people, and you can only hire so many for so long. It's both cheaper and better in the long run to use other things then isk to bind those users of your power to you. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Larsson7 Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:40:00 - [12] People in the MC with 250 Bil in their personal wallets!? My two characters have a grand total of 64 Mil between them I knew Sel didnt pay me enough
Tjakka KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Larsson7 People in the MC with 250 Bil in their personal wallets!? My two characters have a grand total of 64 Mil between them I knew Sel didnt pay me enough Guess those "special members" give him Extra service in .....
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Larsson7 People in the MC with 250 Bil in their personal wallets!? My two characters have a grand total of 64 Mil between them I knew Sel didnt pay me enough I'll have my MC alts send you some isk later Larsson, you have always been one of my favourites. KIA EVE Home
Coug Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:47:00 - [15] ISK buys you time, not power. ISS can hire us to bide them time to bring IAC to the negotating table. This does give them an advantage on the negotating table as more and more POS die, but that largely depends on the skill of the diplomats as well as the goals of the ISS Management. ----------------- ~C~
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:48:00 - [16] If anyone's sat with 250b in their wallet they want a slap, isk should be put to work not looked at. Blog
Speng Angel's of Redemption	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:49:00 - [17] Originally by: KIAEddZ On their own ISS would NO DOUBT fall to IAC. It would be a slaughtering, but with the power of ISK behind them, they are a force to be very reckoned with, and this reaction from them is a clear sign to anyone thinking of knocking on their door in the future. Perhaps, then, it is for the best that IAC pushed the button now. It seems that after the initial prodding of the tiger and the crushing response that IAC + friends intend to somehow remove ISS as a force. Whether this is possible in the face of the ISK mountain is another debate altogether, but to leave ISS alone to accrue more wealth only makes them a more dangerous entity for the future.
DeathGrip Amarr Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Omeega Edited by: Omeega on 19/12/2006 13:59:37 Don't ever mistake the ability to hire alot of mercs to take someone's stations for a permanent solution to your problem. Taking an alliance's space is only a definite 'win' if said alliance is left in no shape to retaliate at a later date. Mercs are a temporary solution, and always will be. In the end, your ability to devestate rather then just remove your enemy is key if you're loking for a permanent solution. Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. Actually agree with you, the world has come to an end :) AXE - Where the men work hard and the girls want to play.
Larsson7 Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:59:00 - [19] Originally by: KIAEddZ Originally by: Larsson7 People in the MC with 250 Bil in their personal wallets!? My two characters have a grand total of 64 Mil between them I knew Sel didnt pay me enough I'll have my MC alts send you some isk later Larsson, you have always been one of my favourites. \o/ <3
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 15:11:00 - [20] Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 19/12/2006 15:11:54 Originally by: Omeega Edited by: Omeega on 19/12/2006 13:59:37 Don't ever mistake the ability to hire alot of mercs to take someone's stations for a permanent solution to your problem. Taking an alliance's space is only a definite 'win' if said alliance is left in no shape to retaliate at a later date. Mercs are a temporary solution, and always will be. In the end, your ability to devestate rather then just remove your enemy is key if you're loking for a permanent solution. Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. Anyone copying this text is a fool! Completely agree Isk is worthless unless once you have taken the space you are then able to hold it merc's won't be around forever. Once they leave you need to then hold that space. Isk is power if used correctly the amount of mercs hired by ASCN was quite big and I only saw part of the list but it hasn't really helped them. PS: I would also like to know who has that amount of isk sat in their wallet. /me looks at Sel
nickky01 The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.19 15:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Omeega Edited by: Omeega on 19/12/2006 13:59:37 Don't ever mistake the ability to hire alot of mercs to take someone's stations for a permanent solution to your problem. Taking an alliance's space is only a definite 'win' if said alliance is left in no shape to retaliate at a later date. Mercs are a temporary solution, and always will be. In the end, your ability to devestate rather then just remove your enemy is key if you're loking for a permanent solution. Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. Anyone copying this text is a fool! Completely agree Isk is worthless unless once you have taken the space you are then able to hold it merc's won't be around forever. Once they leave you need to then hold that space. Isk is power if used correctly the amount of mercs hired by ASCN was quite big and I only saw part of the list but it hasn't really helped them. agreed.
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.19 15:17:00 - [22] I like you KIAEddZ but I think you are partly wrong on this. Case in point : ASCN. More money than you can dream. At a HC meeting, with chips on the table at the beginning of this war they could put down 5 outposts and 200 billion. Money can change a lot of things. But it is not, nor will it ever be a replacment for good leadership. And in Eve I think that smart, charismatic leadership is the single most valuable commodity you can have.
CDS Leader Caldari Eve Forum Warriors	Posted - 2006.12.19 15:20:00 - [23] Originally by: Montaire I like you KIAEddZ but I think you are partly wrong on this. Case in point : ASCN. More money than you can dream. At a HC meeting, with chips on the table at the beginning of this war they could put down 5 outposts and 200 billion. Money can change a lot of things. But it is not, nor will it ever be a replacment for good leadership. And in Eve I think that smart, charismatic leadership is the single most valuable commodity you can have. In ASCN's case, those riches were limited to a few while the agerage isk/member ratio was low. Unless I am mistaken, those riches are assumed to be.... missing..... or more realistically, in the pockets of the leaders
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.19 15:28:00 - [24] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 19/12/2006 15:28:46 Originally by: Coug ISK buys you time, not power. ISS can hire us to bide them time to bring IAC to the negotating table. This does give them an advantage on the negotating table as more and more POS die, but that largely depends on the skill of the diplomats as well as the goals of the ISS Management. omg were ****ed /me hides diplomat badge Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
n sx The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.19 16:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Hermia i dont feel sorry for IAC at all, they went for (what they thought) easy targets to score that big win and claim dominance. Other alliances did this to "the big blue", i remember thinking how pathetic they are, especially after all the egotistical posts (mercs on payrol excape this ofcourse). IAC in no way is asking you to feel sorry for us. ISS and IAC knew this war was always going to happen. Ask Count its been brewing for a long time and if he disagree's he would be lieing. IAC standing up for our right to be a neutral entity and to be respected by our neighbour is all that was asked for. It was never given and as a result their navy was shamed in 3 days. That said, what has been amassed against us is NOTHING short of amazing, and regardless of what they're doing to us, we are watching in awe. It's potentially the largest capital fleet ever amassed in EVE and we're feeling very special that we deserve this level attention. Ultimately, in the end there is no glory in a 8000 pilot coalition vs 2000 pilot coalition. I am sure our previous opponents will testify that if LV and friends hadn't uber blobbed with the capital compliment they possess (not to discredit them they are serving a role) IAC would still be in MC, FIX and ISS' face fighting the hard fight. Right now, undocking is just outright stupid and just throwing away any ship a pilot chooses to fly. The last two days are the first that IAC's actually lost more ships than we've destroyed. The conclusion of this conflict has many endings, all of which I can assure you IAC is looking into. How it will end or unfold over the next few months only time will tell. Lets just say, if IAC can keep MC and it's pilots in a job for the next 6 months, i'm going to start asking Seleene to start passing some commissions our way hehe. I can assure you IAC savours the fight and adores putting what skills we have against what many deem to be the best in the industry. Merc's serve a purpose in EVE and in this case, the sheer number of them goes a long way to guaranteeing their success. My only question to them is, is it purely the ISK that you will sell yourself to or is there any moral standing that you will not undertake? IAC's pilots fight from their own wallets, with ISK they earn on their own and for that I am forever indebted with their presence. I said it in another thread, and I will stand by it now that ISK will never buy you honour, glory or respect - that you need to earn the hard way.
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2006.12.19 16:19:00 - [26] Personally I like ISK. Pure, clean, crisp ISK. That I can roll around nekkid in. Glorious! Money is power, money has the power to change. For good and for bad. Always has been, always will be. No matter what reality you are in. Just look outside EVE, its not like its "good will" that runs the world. Sad but true. Regards, Lowa What if the truth was something else?
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.12.19 16:47:00 - [27] Omeega wins this thread.
Audrea Momentum.	Posted - 2006.12.19 16:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Lowa Personally I like ISK. Pure, clean, crisp ISK. That I can roll around nekkid in. Glorious! Blood money! I do agree that ISK by itself is not enough to instill a permanent change in the political map.. You need someone to stay and live in the new space.. If your ISK can give the needed push to either push out (or protect, like happend in 9UY), and then maintain control via friends or whatever, then yes money can be very powerful force. But other than that, its only use is for T2 bpos Save Tranquility!
Raid Caldari Tyrell Corp	Posted - 2006.12.19 16:57:00 - [29] In fairness to the rest of us... ISS hired 3 mercs... The rest of us that are there are here because we have an interest in seeing ISS survive and IAC die. Money does buy some power... but throwing some money in with dedicated pilots and friends and you got yourself one giant IAC gang bang.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.19 16:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Coug ISK buys you time, not power. So true. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (Temporarily down)
Commander Solo Caldari Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.19 17:27:00 - [31] Merc's in this kind of situation are a short term solution to a long term problem. The inital shock and awe aspect of most mercenary contracts are enough to buy time to prepare for an unexpected and on going conflict. If the employer does not make the improvements and changes required to ensure the longterm stability of the alliance through defence, or agression. The contract and whatever its outcome is nothing more than a time out.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.19 18:02:00 - [32] Since we have essentially already had this thread lets wait and see what happens after ISS is forced to pay for the mercs for 2 months and then IAC comes back. Then we can see if the power of ISK works and have a new thread :P The Enemy's Gate is Down
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2006.12.19 18:05:00 - [33] Money is nice, and it sure helps a lot, but in the grand scheme of this game it's far less relevant then you make it appear. EVE is pretty slow paced. Training up a proper PVP pilot takes about 6 months to a year, depending on what specialisation you choose. Forming a 0.0 corp that can rival established ones might take a year or longer. All that ISK for mercs does is accelerate or slow down a force, it will never stop it entirely if the 'victims' dont let them to. The way I see it, this whole affair related to IAC will only make em stronger. The people with no heart for the Alliance will probably leave IAC should they lose their stations, so that is a lot of risk and deadweight to the Alliance removed. The remaining ones will have a strong history that will bind them much more then any recruitment speech of their respective corporation could give them. Regardless of what you throw against someone ISK wise, if they intend to stick together and have proper leadership, you will only end up making them stronger.
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 18:10:00 - [34] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Omeega wins this thread. Agree'ed Pwned Rob one time... Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Toman Torax Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Raid ...we have an interest in seeing...IAC die. You'd really love that, wouldn't you? Ain't gonna happen. (combat) Your Inferno Torpedo hits Taisu Magdesh, doing 604.5 damage.
Xeriuz Caldari The Puppet Masters.	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:37:00 - [36] Originally by: KIAEddZ Originally by: Omeega Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. What if MC/KIA/OO + friends were hired for 6 months..... you think this is impossible? Because I tell you now it certainly isn't. I am not a natural capatilist, but ISK = anything is possible. who are "OO"? thanks ______________________________________________ X You Never Know What You Have Until You Lose It
Excesse The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:47:00 - [37] SOD are having fun with our merc invasion too btw! xx
Dra0cht	Posted - 2006.12.19 22:04:00 - [38] Originally by: Omeega Don't ever mistake the ability to hire alot of mercs to take someone's stations for a permanent solution to your problem. Taking an alliance's space is only a definite 'win' if said alliance is left in no shape to retaliate at a later date. Mercs are a temporary solution, and always will be. In the end, your ability to devestate rather then just remove your enemy is key if you're loking for a permanent solution. Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. Anyone copying this text is a fool! Yes, exactly! Now the real reason I quoted you, that sig, totally and utterly owns
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.19 22:23:00 - [39] Edited by: Baun on 19/12/2006 22:23:05 Originally by: Xeriuz Originally by: KIAEddZ Originally by: Omeega Mercs can be used to remove, but to devastate you need to keep up that pressure for far longer then the average merc contract lasts. What if MC/KIA/OO + friends were hired for 6 months..... you think this is impossible? Because I tell you now it certainly isn't. I am not a natural capatilist, but ISK = anything is possible. who are "OO"? thanks I assume he means omniscient order. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.19 22:35:00 - [40] money is purely defensive.
War Bear Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:10:00 - [41] Originally by: n sx Merc's serve a purpose in EVE and in this case, the sheer number of them goes a long way to guaranteeing their success. My only question to them is, is it purely the ISK that you will sell yourself to or is there any moral standing that you will not undertake? I'd personally kill the psycho kitten in Crovans sig for a cheeseburger, fries and a coke. No matter where you go, there you are.
Kaleeb S.Y.N.D.R.O.M.E.	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:29:00 - [42] /me rattles tin in direction of rich people
MeatwagonUK M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Lowa Personally I like ISK. Pure, clean, crisp ISK. That I can roll around nekkid in. Glorious! Money is power, money has the power to change. For good and for bad. Always has been, always will be. No matter what reality you are in. Just look outside EVE, its not like its "good will" that runs the world. Sad but true. Regards, Lowa Ok so Lowa is one of the 250bil wallet guys :p
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:31:00 - [44] I don't get the impression it was the MC that was decisive in the recent IAC abuse though. It looked more like it was the addition of LV to the mix that really turned the tables. MC is strong, but already demonstrated once that they alone were not enough to put IAC down. None of the other merc groups involved appear to have anything near their level of muscle.
Der Pfaffe KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:22:00 - [45] Originally by: n sx .....snip some interesting stuff. Merc's serve a purpose in EVE and in this case, the sheer number of them goes a long way to guaranteeing their success. My only question to them is, is it purely the ISK that you will sell yourself to or is there any moral standing that you will not undertake? It's been said many times, but I think generally it's fair to say that your average merc is not in it for the Isk. Most of the Isk our corp is paid is reinvested back into the corp to buy capital ships, POS gear and various other pieces of kit that any modern merc corp now has to equip itself with if it wants to compete in the marketplace. As for moral issues... Well I can't see myself or many others in KIA ever fighting on behalf pirates for example, but an entity claiming the moral high ground by stating that it is "neutral" would not exclude it from our target list if we were engaged to attack it. Originally by: n sx IAC's pilots fight from their own wallets, with ISK they earn on their own and for that I am forever indebted with their presence. I said it in another thread, and I will stand by it now that ISK will never buy you honour, glory or respect - that you need to earn the hard way. This is exactly what KIA's pilots do, apart from the odd contract award. This is why we have downtime between contracts. We replenish our wallets by (dare I say it) mining and mission running (I have to replace those shiney ships I keep losing somehow). While I'm not terribly interested in glory, I certainly consider myself to be honourable (in the RP sense) and respect is a relative concept. I doubt that anybody actually believes that these latter come from having lots of Isk. As to the OP's original point, while it is fair to say that Mercs will not occupy space permanently (unless they intend taking for themselves of course), in this particular case they, (and by default the Isk they were paid), have affected the EVE landscape. Had they not been employed ISS may have ceased to exist, and while it is unlikely that IAC will disappear as an entity, they may well be forced to look for a diplomatic solution to the war. The very fact that ISS has shown itself willing to pay out what is undoubtedly several billion Isk to defend itself will probably deter others from taking it on in the future, thereby guaranteeing it's continuing existence. Some good points have been made about the use of Mercs in this thread. However, I feel that the OP's points are still valid as he is not talking about Mercs going in and smashing alliances overnight so to speak, although that has been done. One example is the selective use of Mercs to bolster a client's own capital fleet to take over a key system. The client's own forces would then be responsible for holding it. The Mercs withdraw until called upon to "rinse and repeat" as the client alliance advances. A slow process perhaps, but one which could, in time, lead to an alliance's demise. So mercs and therefore Isk can have a permanent effect the EVE landscape.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:26:00 - [46] There isn't enough merc corps worth a **** to go around, they will always be the exception, not the rule. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
Asylum Seaker Minmatar RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:32:00 - [47] ISK is one road to power, but not the only. People fight for money, but also for ideas, fun, out of fear or because they're sadistic. A charismatic leader or group of leaders can hold an army together just as easily as the promise of cash, and perhaps more sustainably. And to be honest, I think the average player would get bored of being rich. It takes the edge out of the game. Memento Mori.
Mad'Mike Banks Godspeed You Black Emperor	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:37:00 - [48] Wish i had 2bill
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.20 11:11:00 - [49] ISK can be equal to power, thats very true. Im quite convinced that ISS and their campaign against IAC is doomed to failure. In the end they and their investors will be out of pocket quite a bit and have achieved very little. IAC and its pilots will in large part remain and have even more reasons to make life as difficult for ISS as possible. We will see I guess. The most amusing part of this is the continuing transformation of the once proud FIX into mercenary cannon fodder, sort of Diet MCÖ. I guess renting space from BoB made the FIX leadership realize that becoming rentboys themselves was no major transformation ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Hans Roaming Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 12:36:00 - [50] Originally by: Helmut 314 ISK can be equal to power, thats very true. Im quite convinced that ISS and their campaign against IAC is doomed to failure. In the end they and their investors will be out of pocket quite a bit and have achieved very little. IAC and its pilots will in large part remain and have even more reasons to make life as difficult for ISS as possible. We will see I guess. The most amusing part of this is the continuing transformation of the once proud FIX into mercenary cannon fodder, sort of Diet MCÖ. I guess renting space from BoB made the FIX leadership realize that becoming rentboys themselves was no major transformation Remember that ISS was aggressed by IAC with the leadership not being clear about not making a land grab for the ISS stations next door. With this in mind ISS who manages the publically owned stations had to defend themselves. The shareholders of the ISS stations also did not want to see their investment be taken by IAC. The best way to fight a war is on the enemies land and so you have the current situation of IAC being sieged, loosing POS daily and ISS on a course to gai n three new outposts for less than the price of constructing them. This will also allow them to make good on thier IPO of the alliance itself. Yes IAC pilots will be upset over this, however IAC pilots had ISS to -10 before ISS fought back and so there is even more incentive to deprive the enemy of their assets in 0.0 as well as the income to continue the war. There is assuming of course that all of current IAC pilots would be happy to still follow the leadership that managed to create this situation in the first place. Back to the OP, does ISK equal power? In ISSs case which is unique in EVE then yes I feel it does. There is the obvious employment of liquid funds to hire military might as can be seen with MC, Veto and KIA which any alliance can muster. However there is the unique situation of ISK that ISS has and that is that other alliances ISK is invested in thier alliance and assets. When IAC gave the perception they would take those ISS managed outposts suddenly they were attacking the assets of more than just ISS and hence you have the war and combatants as it stands now.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.12.20 12:38:00 - [51] Edited by: Wild Rho on 20/12/2006 12:39:27 Isk is an infinitely flexible tool, a means to an end and is useless if it's not being used. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:19:00 - [52] Yes Hans, its very convenient to fight wars with mercs and especially when other peoples money is paying for it... I still think this will come back and bite ISS hard in the butt without achieveing anything real. ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Sameth Technology Acquisition Collective Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:30:00 - [53] Sadly there is one flaw in your theories Eddz, the mercs havent done **** all pretty much in this war. Interceptors with fighters is about the real extent of it, all the real power has come from LV. Poor, poor MC, must be crying into their beer as what was a good chance to try and ressurect their rapidily failing reputation has been stolen by LV. Seleene loves to make flashy posts with pretty pictures but kudos to LV, they seem to be trying to get the job done and leaving the forum trolling to those who cant fight for real. Dont worry MC, of you post enough people might actually believe your still scary No doubt get my ass kicked for posting this, but hell, you cant help but laugh at the pretenders who just try so damn hard to seem like they actually matter.
Der Pfaffe KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:31:00 - [54] Originally by: Helmut 314 Yes Hans, its very convenient to fight wars with mercs and especially when other peoples money is paying for it... I still think this will come back and bite ISS hard in the butt without achieveing anything real. So you are saying that the probable gaining of three new outposts, and demonstrating to EVE that they will not roll-over easily is going to have a negative effect on people's investment decisions. I'd say the opposite is true. ISS are demonstrating that they will protect their shareholders' interests, allbeit that their dividends might suffer for a month or so. ISK is certainly power in this case and IAC are feeling the full weight of it.
Der Pfaffe KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Sameth Sadly there is one flaw in your theories Eddz, the mercs havent done **** all pretty much in this war. Interceptors with fighters is about the real extent of it, all the real power has come from LV. Snipped.... smacktard stuff A quick look at their KB would seem to contradict you, and of course flying around in a shuttle must have helped your alliance's war effort a lot.... Sorry couldn't resist it
maGz The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:57:00 - [56] Edited by: maGz on 20/12/2006 13:57:26 Originally by: Der Pfaffe Originally by: Sameth Sadly there is one flaw in your theories Eddz, the mercs havent done **** all pretty much in this war. Interceptors with fighters is about the real extent of it, all the real power has come from LV. Snipped.... smacktard stuff A quick look at their KB would seem to contradict you, and of course flying around in a shuttle must have helped your alliance's war effort a lot.... Sorry couldn't resist it I don't think he's referring to the amount of kills. I think he's referring to the actual capital fleet/attack on IAC stations. This has mainly been orchestrated by LV with MC sitting in their POS's with fighters assigned (MC dreads have appeared in F4/JBY, don't get me wrong). I'm not belittleling the performance of MC/KIA/FIX/Veto. however it is wrong to assume that they are the driving force behind this attack. ISK = power, but to think that hiring mercs would be enough to take down IAC is wrong. ____________ The Priory Killboard
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.20 16:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Der Pfaffe So you are saying that the probable gaining of three new outposts, and demonstrating to EVE that they will not roll-over easily is going to have a negative effect on people's investment decisions. I'd say the opposite is true. ISS are demonstrating that they will protect their shareholders' interests, allbeit that their dividends might suffer for a month or so. ISK is certainly power in this case and IAC are feeling the full weight of it. So youre saying that this is a sound business decision on ISS's part ? I thought wars of conquest didnt use to be part of ISS charter, but I guess things change... ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 16:45:00 - [58] Mercs are indeed a temporary solution, but they, and by induction ISK, open up a lot of options. If ISS truly has no occupation plan for IAC's outposts, then yes, it will be a short-lived victory. But I suspect they are clever enough to find a very lucrative arrangement for something as valuable as three outposts next door to what would have to be a major business partner in ISS. Maybe they package them up with their two stations and sell them to a bigger fish with deep pockets and add a few hundred bil to the corp coffers. Who knows. Whatever happens, I'm pretty sure they're not planning to say, "OK, show's over. Everyone run along now." They have a little more foresight than other parties. I seriously doubt IAC will be walking back in to unoccupied stations, and ISS will (assuming the siege continues on its current trajectory) have a lot of say in their new neighbors or have a very nice cashout for their efforts.
Julien Derida Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 17:04:00 - [59] Originally by: maGz I don't think he's referring to the amount of kills. I think he's referring to the actual capital fleet/attack on IAC stations. This has mainly been orchestrated by LV with MC sitting in their POS's with fighters assigned (MC dreads have appeared in F4/JBY, don't get me wrong). I'm not belittleling the performance of MC/KIA/FIX/Veto. however it is wrong to assume that they are the driving force behind this attack. ISK = power, but to think that hiring mercs would be enough to take down IAC is wrong. I think you're making a few shaky assumptions there maGz. How do you know who is 'orchestrating' the attacks, or who is the 'driving force' without being involved in the planning yourself? All you can see is the numbers. Obviously LV are going to be pretty numerous, as they are the largest alliance involved in this conflict. ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.20 17:23:00 - [60] Edited by: Butter Dog on 20/12/2006 17:23:42 Most of you have got this rather wrong. ISS are NOT paying FIX/UK/TYC/LV/KIA. They are there because they want IAC to die for their own reasons. ISK does buy shock troops like MC, to get specific objectives done. Their capital fleet is worth its weight in gold. But once ISS hold the stations, its game over for IAC. All this talk of 'they will be back for revenge' just makes me laugh. They are 80% industrial with a lot of young members, their staying power ends when their ability to make ISK in peace is removed. The thought of a few hardcore members basing out of Litom and becoming Priory-Lite doesnt worry anyone in ISS at all. We live with gank squads every day, its part of life in 0.0 and to suggest it will somehow bring ISS to its knees is comical. ------------- Be a part of EVE history - The 500bn ISS IPO.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.20 17:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Butter Dog But once ISS hold the stations, its game over for IAC. All this talk of 'they will be back for revenge' just makes me laugh. They are 80% industrial with a lot of young members, their staying power ends when their ability to make ISK in peace is removed. I think you are giving Tyrrax, too little credit.... but I could be wrong.
Layla Currie Followers Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.20 17:29:00 - [62] Edited by: Layla Currie on 20/12/2006 17:29:57 Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 20/12/2006 17:23:42 Most of you have got this rather wrong. ISS are NOT paying FIX/UK/TYC/LV/KIA. They are there because they want IAC to die for their own reasons. ISK does buy shock troops like MC, to get specific objectives done. Their capital fleet is worth its weight in gold. But once ISS hold the stations, its game over for IAC. All this talk of 'they will be back for revenge' just makes me laugh. They are 80% industrial with a lot of young members, their staying power ends when their ability to make ISK in peace is removed. The thought of a few hardcore members basing out of Litom and becoming Priory-Lite doesnt worry anyone in ISS at all. We live with gank squads every day, its part of life in 0.0 and to suggest it will somehow bring ISS to its knees is comical. hmm take not future alliances. If you ever need to make a descision hire the all knowing butter dog cause he clearly knows what he is talking about! Seriously man you have no clue about what iac has become since the last mc war since you were off being some noob pirate somewhere. Stop gloating about like iss is actually worth crap, cause it's not. It must be sad being in issn. Knowing that your leaders have such a lack of faith in your abilities and skill to get anything done. I mean in priory we know that issn is absolutely worthless and isn't worth jack when it comes to combat, but atleast your leaders should mantain the fasade that their membership is worth anything. Instead they admit that the issn and all it's members are worthless and to resolve their conflicts they need to bring in many outsiders to win the fight, since alone their leaders know their membership couldn't pull it's weight in dog dung.
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 17:32:00 - [63] Originally by: Sameth Sadly there is one flaw in your theories Eddz, the mercs havent done **** all pretty much in this war. Interceptors with fighters is about the real extent of it, all the real power has come from LV. Poor, poor MC, must be crying into their beer as what was a good chance to try and ressurect their rapidily failing reputation has been stolen by LV. Seleene loves to make flashy posts with pretty pictures but kudos to LV, they seem to be trying to get the job done and leaving the forum trolling to those who cant fight for real. Dont worry MC, of you post enough people might actually believe your still scary No doubt get my ass kicked for posting this, but hell, you cant help but laugh at the pretenders who just try so damn hard to seem like they actually matter. Obviously our dozen dreadnoughts, dozen carriers, and mothership mean nothing! No, it wasn't us shooting down your POS in JBY last night, nor did we shoot down the small POS in F4R last night, nor the two larges this morning! Kudos to LV and FIX and ISS for their phenomenal efforts working with us. They truly bring it just as hard as we do, and I'm proud to be flying with them. But let me ask you, Sameth: Where were you last night when we were sieging POS in JBY? Why didn't you try to fight back when we took down the small POS last night? You've lost an ishkur and a shuttle to the MC, and participated in a caracal kill. I think Sameth just looked at his enemies and said "which one do I hate the least ... well, MC and FIX are just meanies, and U'K and ISS are weenies, so I'll go with LV." Perhaps you should get a new beer yourself; it looks like it's at least half tears by now. _______________________________________________
FowlPlayChiken Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 18:28:00 - [64] Originally by: Speng Originally by: KIAEddZ On their own ISS would NO DOUBT fall to IAC. It would be a slaughtering, but with the power of ISK behind them, they are a force to be very reckoned with, and this reaction from them is a clear sign to anyone thinking of knocking on their door in the future. Perhaps, then, it is for the best that IAC pushed the button now. It seems that after the initial prodding of the tiger and the crushing response that IAC + friends intend to somehow remove ISS as a force. Whether this is possible in the face of the ISK mountain is another debate altogether, but to leave ISS alone to accrue more wealth only makes them a more dangerous entity for the future. If ISS backs down now it shows weakness, and will make their allies less likely to come to their aid in the future. I think IAC will have to deal with what comes and recoup after, and retaliate after if that is their plan (it is). Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler
FowlPlayChiken Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 18:34:00 - [65] Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 20/12/2006 17:23:42 Most of you have got this rather wrong. ISS are NOT paying FIX/UK/TYC/LV/KIA. They are there because they want IAC to die for their own reasons. ISK does buy shock troops like MC, to get specific objectives done. Their capital fleet is worth its weight in gold. But once ISS hold the stations, its game over for IAC. All this talk of 'they will be back for revenge' just makes me laugh. They are 80% industrial with a lot of young members, their staying power ends when their ability to make ISK in peace is removed. The thought of a few hardcore members basing out of Litom and becoming Priory-Lite doesnt worry anyone in ISS at all. We live with gank squads every day, its part of life in 0.0 and to suggest it will somehow bring ISS to its knees is comical. I actually disagree. they may be back. given the lucrative offer of 0.0 to live in by one of their allies, should they be pushed out. they may also die off as you say. no idea tbh. if they come back, I suppose iss wallets are deep enough that so will we. ive already set my jump clone Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler
Der Pfaffe KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 18:42:00 - [66] Originally by: Helmut 314 Originally by: Der Pfaffe So you are saying that the probable gaining of three new outposts, and demonstrating to EVE that they will not roll-over easily is going to have a negative effect on people's investment decisions. I'd say the opposite is true. ISS are demonstrating that they will protect their shareholders' interests, allbeit that their dividends might suffer for a month or so. ISK is certainly power in this case and IAC are feeling the full weight of it. So youre saying that this is a sound business decision on ISS's part ? I thought wars of conquest didnt use to be part of ISS charter, but I guess things change... Well what you call a "war of conquest", others would describe as self defence. As far as I am aware it was IAC that decced ISS not the other way round so the decision to go to war was taken out of their hands. Or are you suggesting that ISS shouldn't have decided to defend themselves?
Shinjuro The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.20 19:50:00 - [67] Originally by: Blacklight If anyone's sat with 250b in their wallet they want a slap, isk should be put to work not looked at. I can't believe I'm agreeing but.. QFT! cough Build a titan or 3* cough
Adlee Venture Mining and Exploration	Posted - 2006.12.20 19:55:00 - [68] As things stand today, while ISK always helps, isk available to buy mercs is not something you can count on in alliance warfare. If there were 3-5 merc outfits with MC's capabilities things might be different. Let's say MC won't take the contract, or is hired against you.. and you have unlimited ISK. ISK doesn't equal power then does it? With all due respect to KIA and other merc corps, while they may have plenty of individual skill, they don't have the "blob factor" that is needed in no-holds barred alliance warfare. MC have aready clearly stated what goes into selecting contracts, and ISK is not a significant factor. MC's industrial base generates far more ISK than any potential contracts, so mercing is not a business for MC, it's just a playstyle Until there are enough real alternatives to MC, ISK will never be power in the way the OP suggests.
Reborn Dragon Gallente Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.20 20:17:00 - [69] Quote: The best way to fight a war is on the enemies land and so you have the current situation of IAC being sieged, loosing POS daily and ISS on a course to gai n three new outposts for less than the price of constructing them. So tell me, how did that work for the German invasion of Russia? Not too well last time I heard. Isk is nice, isk is cool, but isk can't save you from being a fool.
Shriana Vrek Minmatar KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.20 20:32:00 - [70] Originally by: Reborn Dragon So tell me, how did that work for the German invasion of Russia? Not too well last time I heard. Russia was very big and spacious, and was a complete marathon for the german army to resupply. ISS have an outpost in the neighbouring system to the conflict zone
Reborn Dragon Gallente Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.20 20:47:00 - [71] Edited by: Reborn Dragon on 20/12/2006 20:48:50 Originally by: Shriana Vrek Originally by: Reborn Dragon So tell me, how did that work for the German invasion of Russia? Not too well last time I heard. Russia was very big and spacious, and was a complete marathon for the german army to resupply. ISS have an outpost in the neighbouring system to the conflict zone True dat, but back on topic; I am just wondering how long ISS can hire MC. What are they going to do when the massive gorilla warfare starts after the systems are taken form IAC? Are they going to be able to afford MC when a system farther away is under siege and then while MC is dragging their capital fleet to siege the attackers, the attackers stop and move on to another system, now forcing ISS to pay MC yet again to move their fleet to the next system under siege? Are their allies going to do the same? Isk can only buy you time...There are endless resources in EVE, so it's hard to actually go completely broke, which helps the...less wealthy alliances( )..A small alliance, if they have enough motivation and are able to stick it through, even during hard times, could bring even the biggest to their knees. Isk can only buy you time...
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.20 20:51:00 - [72] Originally by: Reborn Dragon What are they going to do when the massive gorilla warfare starts after the systems are taken form IAC? Hello. What part of 'we have lived with this every day since ISS was first created' don't you understand? As I said in another thread, a few disaffected IAC becoming Priory-Lite is not a worry. ------------- Be a part of EVE history - The 500bn ISS IPO.
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.20 20:51:00 - [73] Originally by: Der Pfaffe Well what you call a "war of conquest", others would describe as self defence. As far as I am aware it was IAC that decced ISS not the other way round so the decision to go to war was taken out of their hands. Or are you suggesting that ISS shouldn't have decided to defend themselves? Regardless of who wardecced who, whats going on now and what ISS et al are stating is that they are taking the stations. To me that sounds a lot more like a war of conquest rather than an act of self defence. I guess this is like if some people from a third rate power attacked a superpower and the superpower subsequently gathered all its allies in a coalition of the willing and flattened the territory of the third rate power in question....oh wait ? I find it slightly amusing that you find the moral high ground so desirable , Der Pfaffe, seeing as youre a mercenary. Any way, lets get back to the original dsicussion, the relationship between isk and power. I think that dependable allies is more useful than a big bag of isk and half the mercs in Eve on retainer. ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Sameth Technology Acquisition Collective Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.20 20:54:00 - [74] Originally by: Cabadrin Obviously our dozen dreadnoughts, dozen carriers, and mothership mean nothing! No, it wasn't us shooting down your POS in JBY last night, nor did we shoot down the small POS in F4R last night, nor the two larges this morning! Kudos to LV and FIX and ISS for their phenomenal efforts working with us. They truly bring it just as hard as we do, and I'm proud to be flying with them. . Simply put since your still trying to spin it (how could you not with that reputation of yours having taken a pounding for the last few months). Your not the driving force behind anything because your too small. I have been at most of the POSes coming out of reinforced and MC would be lucky to make up a 3rd probably less, the bulk of the fleet is LV. They are the ones doing the damage, your the ones riding their coat tails. Can I make it any plainer? Originally by: Cabadrin But let me ask you, Sameth: Where were you last night when we were sieging POS in JBY? Why didn't you try to fight back when we took down the small POS last night? You've lost an ishkur and a shuttle to the MC, and participated in a caracal kill. Lol, I lost a shuttle in IACs suicide hit on your POS which we did for giggles and you might want to look at the ship kills this way... There have basically been no MC to shoot at, interceptors and fighters FTW eh? Oh and I almost forgot that guy with 3 accounts sniping regularly, you should make him the face of MC since he does most of the work for you! Again, nice spin, but trying to belittle someone for NOT having lost ships? You have just highlighted my entire point. Thanks for that! Since I have been doing some Osprey piloting wheeee so I know the sort of numbers you have brought. Like I said, maybe one day you will get a contract that you can prove your worth in again, after all, you failed to take out IAC ast time with your numbers, and what is different this time? Mmmmm maybe its the extra 60 or so cap ships LV brought ... no ... couldnt be could it??? Unless MC controls LV and no one knows it the credit you get for anything that happens in this war is pretty much **** all, despite all the pretty pictures, forums posts and rp stories your forum trolls want to post If LV leadership wanted to, come the resolution of this campaign (if they win) they could kill 2 enemies with one stone, IAC and MC, by simply highlighting how minor your role was, after all, it would be in their interests to remove larger merc corps so they cant be used against them. Think your rep can take yet another massive kick in the balls? I wonder ... Last post from me, since I shouldnt be posting anyway heh, but it seems some people just couldnt quite grasp the first post so theres some clarification for you. So let the spin and personal attacks on me begin, gogo MC and fanboi's. You got a free target that wont post back, you clearly need the practice since your in game skills are slipping
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 21:05:00 - [75] It's not a question of time, really, or how ISS handles the guerrilla war. The operative question is: What force will ISS place in these new outposts to replace IAC if they are ousted to replace the assault force and defend the space? Ultimately, the guerrilla war has to become a siege if IAC wants the station back. If a significant entity takes control of those stations, IAC would face even tougher odds than what they face today in retaking those stations. That is the real endgame - not defending against random incursions, which is already a fact of life in the area. Regardless, I think it would be hard to argue that ISS' isk didn't buy them control of their own destiny here. The only issue I see is that the spoils of their war will be so great at this point that it will be tough to find a buyer with the interest and resources to pay a fair price. The smart play would be for ISS to arrange a long-term payment plan that flowed through to their current allies to help ensure the deal and the long-term resettlement by their new neighbors, whoever they may be. Give LV, U'K, FIX and, heck, us a reason to see the reoccupation be successful, along with the new owner. Then IAC would face a real uphill battle retaking the stations. That's just my personal take.
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 21:06:00 - [76] Originally by: Sameth Originally by: Cabadrin Obviously our dozen dreadnoughts, dozen carriers, and mothership mean nothing! No, it wasn't us shooting down your POS in JBY last night, nor did we shoot down the small POS in F4R last night, nor the two larges this morning! Kudos to LV and FIX and ISS for their phenomenal efforts working with us. They truly bring it just as hard as we do, and I'm proud to be flying with them. . Simply put since your still trying to spin it (how could you not with that reputation of yours having taken a pounding for the last few months). Your not the driving force behind anything because your too small. I have been at most of the POSes coming out of reinforced and MC would be lucky to make up a 3rd probably less, the bulk of the fleet is LV. They are the ones doing the damage, your the ones riding their coat tails. Can I make it any plainer? Originally by: Cabadrin But let me ask you, Sameth: Where were you last night when we were sieging POS in JBY? Why didn't you try to fight back when we took down the small POS last night? You've lost an ishkur and a shuttle to the MC, and participated in a caracal kill. Lol, I lost a shuttle in IACs suicide hit on your POS which we did for giggles and you might want to look at the ship kills this way... There have basically been no MC to shoot at, interceptors and fighters FTW eh? Oh and I almost forgot that guy with 3 accounts sniping regularly, you should make him the face of MC since he does most of the work for you! Again, nice spin, but trying to belittle someone for NOT having lost ships? You have just highlighted my entire point. Thanks for that! Since I have been doing some Osprey piloting wheeee so I know the sort of numbers you have brought. Like I said, maybe one day you will get a contract that you can prove your worth in again, after all, you failed to take out IAC ast time with your numbers, and what is different this time? Mmmmm maybe its the extra 60 or so cap ships LV brought ... no ... couldnt be could it??? Unless MC controls LV and no one knows it the credit you get for anything that happens in this war is pretty much **** all, despite all the pretty pictures, forums posts and rp stories your forum trolls want to post If LV leadership wanted to, come the resolution of this campaign (if they win) they could kill 2 enemies with one stone, IAC and MC, by simply highlighting how minor your role was, after all, it would be in their interests to remove larger merc corps so they cant be used against them. Think your rep can take yet another massive kick in the balls? I wonder ... Last post from me, since I shouldnt be posting anyway heh, but it seems some people just couldnt quite grasp the first post so theres some clarification for you. So let the spin and personal attacks on me begin, gogo MC and fanboi's. You got a free target that wont post back, you clearly need the practice since your in game skills are slipping The world's tiniest violin is playing a sad, sad song for you _______________________________________________
Resipsa Loquitor Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.20 21:17:00 - [77] Originally by: Helmut 314 Regardless of who wardecced who, whats going on now and what ISS et al are stating is that they are taking the stations. To me that sounds a lot more like a war of conquest rather than an act of self defence. What better way to defend yourself in the present than removing the tools from the instigator's hands? What better way to defend yourself in the future than by removing the hands of the instigator? Sounds like someone brought a fight and the fight got brought back to them. Deal with the consequences. siggy Res - It speaks for itself in a misspelled kind of way
Adlee Venture Mining and Exploration	Posted - 2006.12.20 21:25:00 - [78] Originally by: Witch Doctor It's not a question of time, really, or how ISS handles the guerrilla war. The operative question is: What force will ISS place in these new outposts to replace IAC if they are ousted to replace the assault force and defend the space? I thought that the employer needed a plan before MC would take the contract? You guys know are just not telling yet right?
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2006.12.20 21:54:00 - [79] Originally by: Helmut 314 Regardless of who wardecced who, whats going on now and what ISS et al are stating is that they are taking the stations. To me that sounds a lot more like a war of conquest rather than an act of self defence. What do you suggest ISS do here? Seriously, what would you do if you were ISS?
Estilo Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.20 21:56:00 - [80] Money isn't power, MC as an entity is not what it used to be, sad but true, I remember when mc would dec you and you might as well roll over, now their relevance has dropped completely to taking on medium sized alliances. Will MC bring along friends from now on on future contracts, might aswell make that 4 aces into a full pack of cards. Tbh from viewer perspective,IAC>ISS, IAC=MC, MC/FIX/VETO=SOD/IMP/IAC..now LV(alliance siegecapability)> all the rest thereby MC=great team, but overrall deciding factor= LV. Seems the other balancing powers being AAA/RA/GOONS/TCF plus others are just watching amused and not committing. Were all watching from the sidelines
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.20 22:09:00 - [81] Originally by: Adlee I thought that the employer needed a plan before MC would take the contract? You guys know are just not telling yet right? I'm speaking purely as an individual observer and part of the peanut gallery. I couldn't say what MC does or doesn't know. But the only worthwhile topic in any of these threads is: What happens now? I'm just speculating along with everyone else.
Der Pfaffe KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 22:10:00 - [82] Edited by: Der Pfaffe on 20/12/2006 22:13:06 Originally by: Helmut 314 Originally by: Der Pfaffe Well what you call a "war of conquest", others would describe as self defence. As far as I am aware it was IAC that decced ISS not the other way round so the decision to go to war was taken out of their hands. Or are you suggesting that ISS shouldn't have decided to defend themselves? Regardless of who wardecced who, whats going on now and what ISS et al are stating is that they are taking the stations. To me that sounds a lot more like a war of conquest rather than an act of self defence. I guess this is like if some people from a third rate power attacked a superpower and the superpower subsequently gathered all its allies in a coalition of the willing and flattened the territory of the third rate power in question....oh wait ? I find it slightly amusing that you find the moral high ground so desirable , Der Pfaffe, seeing as youre a mercenary. Any way, lets get back to the original dsicussion, the relationship between isk and power. I think that dependable allies is more useful than a big bag of isk and half the mercs in Eve on retainer. First we shouldn't bring the real world into this, after all it's "just a game" (which is a clichT that has been repeated ad infinitum on these forums). But as you brought real life into it let's exaggerate a bit: You come home and find your wife/daughter/grandmother (or in my case favourite sheep) being attacked by a man. You have a baseball bat handy, would you tap him on the head so that he stops for a while, and then when he gets up and tries it again, you tap him again and so on. Or would you smash his head in once and for all to make sure he never attacks anybody again? (especially not your favourite sheep anyway) Morals and the fact that I am a mercenary apart, the facts are that ISS were attacked by IAC. ISS are defending themselves the best way they know how. They are also ensuring that it won't happen again or at the very least deterring anybody from believing they are an easy "mark". BTW your analogy to "that" real life conflict is also flawed.
Helmut 314 Amarr J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.20 22:46:00 - [83] Edited by: Helmut 314 on 20/12/2006 22:45:51 Originally by: Halafian What do you suggest ISS do here? Seriously, what would you do if you were ISS? For one, not waste their investors isk. But, Im not ISS so thats not my call. The kind of power isk bestows upon a person or organization only lasts as long as the isk does. This is why real allies is the staying power in Eve. Personal relationships beats isk in the long run. Same goes for old hatreds of course. About the sheep problem, Der Pfaffe. A small surgical procedure can be a lot more efficient than using the brute force approach and bashing his head in. If the aggressor cant get "it" up anymore your sheep are safe. Theres more than one way to skin a cat, you know ________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Taedrin Gallente Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.20 23:02:00 - [84] A metaphor for any resident pyromaniacs... As anyone who has built a fire before, you need more than just a pile of fuel wood to get a fire going. You need kindling, tinder and a spark too. But even this is not enough. If you just throw everything on the ground and throw a match on it, any flame that you get will soon be extinguished. You need to be able to arrange the tinder, kindling and fuel wood correctly. And if you manage to do this, you can create a magnificant fire that can last for ages, providing that you have enough fuel. ISK in itself, is not power. However, it is necessary to achieve power.
Excesse The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.20 23:15:00 - [85] Quote: ISS will (assuming the siege continues on its current trajectory) have a lot of say in their new neighbors It will definitely be nice having ISS next door - less distance to travel when we want to forcibly acquire some more mods for our ships!
DHB FooFighter FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.20 23:24:00 - [86] /me makes a note. Hire MC first. super ebil plan now formed. See you all in a year when i can afford it. --------------------------------------------
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.21 00:43:00 - [87] Originally by: Helmut 314 The most amusing part of this is the continuing transformation of the once proud FIX into mercenary cannon fodder, sort of Diet MCÖ. I guess renting space from BoB made the FIX leadership realize that becoming rentboys themselves was no major transformation Maybe relationships are being formed like your quote below? Maybe the transformation isn't into Diet MCÖ but an alliance with relationships? Originally by: Helmut 314 The kind of power isk bestows upon a person or organization only lasts as long as the isk does. This is why real allies is the staying power in Eve. Personal relationships beats isk in the long run. Same goes for old hatreds of course. Isk if used right is a powerful tool... as Helmut has stated, personal relationships are key... Alliances that don't have those within and externally are dead or will be at some point in time. Isk can be used to help plug gaps until relationships are formed or improved upon. BTW Helmut its not "once proud FIX" but "still proud FIX"
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.21 01:21:00 - [88] Edited by: Nez Perces on 21/12/2006 01:27:26 Originally by: Doppleganger Maybe relationships are being formed like your quote below? Maybe the transformation isn't into Diet MCÖ but an alliance with relationships? Originally by: Helmut 314 The kind of power isk bestows upon a person or organization only lasts as long as the isk does. This is why real allies is the staying power in Eve. Personal relationships beats isk in the long run. Same goes for old hatreds of course. Lets have a little bit of fun with this... You make a valid point. Building relationships, as Helmut pointed out, is important for an alliance, particularly in this age of capital ships and massive firepower.... the kind, which IAC is on the recieving end of. I mean lets face it only the most focused and dedicated entities can "go it alone". And even they need to have some sort of supporting cast occupying the space they own. However, looking at the lineup versus IAC (ISS/Veto/KIA/MC/FIX/LV).. one cannot help but notice the odd man out. ISS plays the leading role ofc as the object of IAC's aggression. LV plays the role of the investor with an economical interest in ISS' wellbeing. KIA, MC, Veto are hired hands. Where does FIX fit into this picture? k so they may not like IAC much, but there is a whole lot of people who don't like FIX and that FIX doesn't like either. I'm assuming FIX aren't getting paid, or else indeed they would be acting as mercs.. additionally ISS has already stated that FIX is not on the payroll. Avernus has gone on record saying that he has no stocks in ISS, thus I'm assuming neither does IT.. mind you, its possible DS has invested into ISS, but he hardly calls the shots. Perhaps Band of Builders has invested heavily into ISS? .. or perhaps not, FIX can hardly go to war on account of one corp's investments. FIX firepower is surely not an essential requirment in this mixture.. its already a completely one-sided affair. Oh yes.. building relationships.. thats it. But wait.... the only real relationship ISS has is with its shareholders. KIA, MC and Veto are mercs.. they don't do relationships... and could very well be contracted to attack FIX next month. MC has a relationship with BoB but we are led to believe its strictly business, I can't imagine the deal extends to not taking a contract out on FIX. Maybe its LV then... or maybe FIX is simply going along for the ride, who knows?... all in all its a little strange. Disclaimer: Pls don't take anything I typed too seriously I'm just toying around. Truth is its none of my business.
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.12.21 01:29:00 - [89] Originally by: Butter Dog The thought of a few hardcore members basing out of Litom and becoming Priory-Lite doesnt worry anyone in ISS at all. We live with gank squads every day, its part of life in 0.0 and to suggest it will somehow bring ISS to its knees is comical. Rofl. The beginning of another cycle eh Butter. Stage one: The remnants of IAC head to Curse after they are kicked out. Stage Two: Ganking ISS in the cooridor.... Stage Three: .... mmmmm More or less sounds like a repeat of past events.
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.21 05:31:00 - [90] Originally by: Nez Perces Alot of good counter points as always Well most relationships can be more powerful then isk. Since we have been working on a few similar things as MC... I call that some sort of relationship. Does that mean they wouldn't take a job against us.. I would say no, but I would hope that maybe it might lead them to increase their price for a job that they might take out against us. (who knows <speculation>) you can not tell with mercs and I know that being one from a previous game. Flying along side of LV which you know yourself has always been a very unlikely thing to happen since our past. Does that make us friends? ummmm no idea but at least maybe its a start of some sort of relationship other then pew pew. Like a few of the LV ppl have said they never expected to see their ships firing close to FIX ships unless it was at us. Maybe its a start or maybe not. Originally by: Nez Perces FIX firepower is surely not an essential requirment in this mixture.. its already a completely one-sided affair. I dont down play what FIX has contributed in the pew pew department as I have not been in any of the regular fighting gangs but only the cap fleet stuff and then #s can count since not all cap ship pilots can be on all the time. I am a director in BoB... sometimes I know whats behind the hubub and sometimes I dont but I'm a grunt in FIX as well and even though I'm vocal in what I think inside of FIX I still tow the line when I can of what is asked of me. <whoa thats a bad grammatical sentence> I did that when you were in charge <even though i sometimes gave you heck > and I do that now. As long as I feel the ppl in charge have our interests at heart I lend support <I'm just very vocal>. Frankly I'm not sure 100% of our reasons behind this...if its relationships or just some pew pew to keep those finicky pvpers happy and yes I have voiced that but in the end I trust our head honcho so my job is to make pos go boom. Thats one thing isk can't buy is how FIX has held together and still does after all we have been through and all those that have left us. A good structure can not weather the storms unless it has a firm foundation. In this game a firm foundation is built by dedication and not isk. (/me tried to weave the topic into this)
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2006.12.21 06:18:00 - [91] Originally by: Doppleganger In this game a firm foundation is built by dedication and not isk. Yup, and I can't wait to see what foundation IAC is build on in the comming months. Though as usual with conflicts I'm no stakeholder of I wish all a happy death, I cant wait to see how IAC will come back from this to haunt ISS.

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