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Feral Karkassia
Minmatar
Singularity Trafficers
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Posted - 2006.12.26 14:52:00 -
[1]
I read an Eve chronicle about a man who signed up as a crewmember on a battleship. He was worried, knowing that only the pilot had a pod, that if the ship were destroyed, everyone on board would die.
The scientific article about the clones and capsules, on the other hand, seems to indicate that capsules made crews obsolete--something about the pod-pilot being able to micro-manage every detail of the ship's operations. I remember reading, also, that small frigates like the Rifter (I think was the example) always operated with just one pilot.
So which is it--
1. Pod pilots are the only people on board, and only in ships not fitted for capsules are there crews.
2. Pod pilots are the only people on board in small ships, and have scaled crew complements to fit larger ships.
Either way it also mentions that the ships already in existence were modified for capsules, so I guess things like windows are purely for these crews.
Please, 1 or 2? 
Please, make the Wolf blue again!!! |
Bastogne
Caldari
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.26 16:09:00 -
[2]
Samll frigates-Just the pod, larger frigs have 2-3 man crews.
Cruiser crews number in the hundreds, battleships in the thousands. Pods just replace the bridge crew.
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Feral Karkassia
Minmatar
Singularity Trafficers
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Posted - 2006.12.26 17:56:00 -
[3]
Cool, that's good to know. Thanks. 
Please, make the Wolf blue again!!! |
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.27 00:57:00 -
[4]
i think the kestrel is one of the few frigates with a small crew.
infact outside of frigates for the size of our ships the crew numbers are about accurate, an RL Battleship of the Iowa Class had a 2700 member crew and was only 270m bow to stern. an EVE BS has twice that for a beam of 1km. not bad when you think about it.
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Feral Karkassia
Minmatar
Singularity Trafficers
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Posted - 2006.12.27 03:38:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Feral Karkassia on 27/12/2006 03:41:17
Edited for early-morning idiocy.
Please, make the Wolf blue again!!! |
Mephesto Nizal
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Posted - 2006.12.27 19:06:00 -
[6]
hehehe, the day our characters are able to walk on stations, is the day your chief engineer will walk up and punch you in the nose for almost getting killed by some pirate.
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Feral Karkassia
Minmatar
Singularity Trafficers
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Posted - 2006.12.27 19:32:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Mephesto Nizal
hehehe, the day our characters are able to walk on stations, is the day your chief engineer will walk up and punch you in the nose for almost getting killed by some pirate.
 "You idiot, what's wrong with you!?"
 "Yeah, that was cool right?"
 "No, it wasn't! That was four hundred people that almost died so you could grab that stupid afterburner I from the wreckage!"
"Yeah, awesome right?"
 "This is where pirates come from."
Please, make the Wolf blue again!!! |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.27 22:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
i think the kestrel is one of the few frigates with a small crew.
infact outside of frigates for the size of our ships the crew numbers are about accurate, an RL Battleship of the Iowa Class had a 2700 member crew and was only 270m bow to stern. an EVE BS has twice that for a beam of 1km. not bad when you think about it.
Of course an EVE battleship is quite alot more advanced than an Iowa class battleship, and with a corresponding degree of automatation. The EVE battleships are pretty much to the Iowa class battleships as the Iowa class ships are to Greek triremes.
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Crys Steele
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.28 11:33:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Crys Steele on 28/12/2006 11:35:09
This has always made me think since I started. You are always refered to in game as a 'Pilot' by NPCs and what not, but I personally prefere to think of my Avatar as the Captain of his own ship with crewmen that do the work for him. (From an RP and In Character point of view)
Now then, im willing to believe that ships have facilities that perhaps hook up a single person neurologically to a ship who would micro manage the entire ship through his own head, but personally, I prefere the more rough and tumble crewmen feel.
My Character has a Comorant and the Bridge on a Comorant can be ovbiously seen in the Middle of the ship (near th eback) by the largeish windows, which kind of give off a rough idea of the size of the ship, compared to the size of people. This would make me guestimate that a Destroyer could hold a crew of about 50-60 people. This is how I operate and I wouldnt want to think of it any other way.
So in short, I choose number 2.
2. Pod pilots are the only people on board in small ships, and have scaled crew complements to fit larger ships.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:31:00 -
[10]
i think we are pilots as we also man the helm and in ship terms i think that makes you a pilot.
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Nachshon
Caldari
Tyrfing Securities
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:32:00 -
[11]
What I have always believed is that the capsuleer is the only person on his ship. He has all sorts of automated equipment on board to do his bidding. Capsule technology allows you to control every detail of the ship, but you need skillbooks to do it effectively - why else do capsuleers need such detailed knowledge of ship systems?
Having 3 ranks in Engineering does not mean that you have a cursory knowledge of power systems. It means that you know a lot about power systems. With 3 ranks in Engineering, you are qualified to be an engineer on a crewed ship. Four ranks, you are fit to serve as chief engineer on a battleship. Five ranks, you're Scotty's equal when it comes to power systems.
To me, this makes more roleplaying sense. Capsuleers change ships regularly. This would not be so easy to do with a crew in tow.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.29 14:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nachshon
He has all sorts of automated equipment on board to do his bidding. Capsule technology allows you to control every detail of the ship, but you need skillbooks to do it effectively - why else do capsuleers need such detailed knowledge of ship systems?
Having 3 ranks in Engineering does not mean that you have a cursory knowledge of power systems. It means that you know a lot about power systems. With 3 ranks in Engineering, you are qualified to be an engineer on a crewed ship. Four ranks, you are fit to serve as chief engineer on a battleship. Five ranks, you're Scotty's equal when it comes to power systems.
To me, this makes more roleplaying sense. Capsuleers change ships regularly. This would not be so easy to do with a crew in tow.
Personally I think you misunderstand (that's just my opinion though). I'd say that Engineering, Electronics etc is not practical knowledge of Fusion reactors, warp drives.
It's theoretical knowledge which includes the knowledge of how to optimize systems and how to control such systems in an optimal way...and that "skillbooks" is more of a sort of hypnotic programming package, or maybe even a slow-rearrangement of neural pathways in such a way that you innately understand how to set your systems to get the maximum effect.
This explains how you're able to learn level 5 engineering in less than 2 weeks (though that is more of a meta-gaming issue).
As for a crew. You don't have one "in tow". I'd say a part of the "assembling" in stations is hiring a suitable crew. Beyond that I'd say that there would be a great deal of standardization between the empires.
Besides. Even Story Canon(Hands of a killer) states that ships do have crews.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.29 15:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Nachshon
What I have always believed is that the capsuleer is the only person on his ship. He has all sorts of automated equipment on board to do his bidding. Capsule technology allows you to control every detail of the ship, but you need skillbooks to do it effectively - why else do capsuleers need such detailed knowledge of ship systems?
Having 3 ranks in Engineering does not mean that you have a cursory knowledge of power systems. It means that you know a lot about power systems. With 3 ranks in Engineering, you are qualified to be an engineer on a crewed ship. Four ranks, you are fit to serve as chief engineer on a battleship. Five ranks, you're Scotty's equal when it comes to power systems.
To me, this makes more roleplaying sense. Capsuleers change ships regularly. This would not be so easy to do with a crew in tow.
i tend to think each ship would have a crew, as different ship types would need differently trained crews. a crew on a Badger Mark II isnt going to have the same training as those on a Raven.
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Nachshon
Caldari
Tyrfing Securities
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Posted - 2006.12.29 19:32:00 -
[14]
After reading the chronicles, I may have to revise my opinions. It still makes more sense to me that capsuleer-piloted ships have no crew, but that EVE chronicle is something of a sticking point.
Perhaps crews are optional - a capsuleer may hire them or he may not. That would be decent for roleplaying. On some ships, a capsuleer may state that he has a crew. My ship, I don't need no stinking crew. I can maintain my own ship, thank you very much.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.30 04:38:00 -
[15]
I tend to believe that despite what that one chronicle said, the loss of all of the crew on a battleship is a relatively rare occurrence and that our ships would in fact have a quite a large number of crew escape systems, allowing most of the crew to survive ship destruction each time.
I wrote a story about this a while back that I posted here, where basically the ship's bunks and off-duty quarters were safe rooms with small warp drives that jetted out from the ship if it went into structure and were recovered if it survived. On-duty crew needed to dive towards other safe rooms and escape pods to get away though, so they always represented the majority of deaths.
When you consider that most ships in EVE aren't insta-popped, this gives the crew plenty of time to escape most of the time. Possibly not in a fleet battle though.
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Yoshito Sanders
Amarr
Yazata Spenta
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.12.30 06:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nachshon
After reading the chronicles, I may have to revise my opinions. It still makes more sense to me that capsuleer-piloted ships have no crew, but that EVE chronicle is something of a sticking point.
Perhaps crews are optional - a capsuleer may hire them or he may not. That would be decent for roleplaying. On some ships, a capsuleer may state that he has a crew. My ship, I don't need no stinking crew. I can maintain my own ship, thank you very much.
No you can't. What happens when a gun jams? What happens when there's a power surge in a critical system that needs to be repaired? What happens when a million other unpredictable small things go wrong on your ship that require human intuition and creativity to fix? You're stuck in your pod, it's not like you can pop out, run down to the warp drive, and fix the small ***** in the casing while you're moving through low sec space. That's what the crew is for.
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Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.30 11:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Nachshon
After reading the chronicles, I may have to revise my opinions. It still makes more sense to me that capsuleer-piloted ships have no crew, but that EVE chronicle is something of a sticking point.
Perhaps crews are optional - a capsuleer may hire them or he may not. That would be decent for roleplaying. On some ships, a capsuleer may state that he has a crew. My ship, I don't need no stinking crew. I can maintain my own ship, thank you very much.
It's funny that I wrote that piece to stop these discussions and people still refuse to believe that capsule pilots are vicious killers with no regard for human life :\
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Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.30 11:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: James Duar
I tend to believe that despite what that one chronicle said, the loss of all of the crew on a battleship is a relatively rare occurrence and that our ships would in fact have a quite a large number of crew escape systems, allowing most of the crew to survive ship destruction each time.
Ye, good luck being stranded in YZ-LQL with no habited planet around for lightyears tho :)
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Augiro
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Posted - 2006.12.30 11:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: James Duar
I tend to believe that despite what that one chronicle said, the loss of all of the crew on a battleship is a relatively rare occurrence and that our ships would in fact have a quite a large number of crew escape systems, allowing most of the crew to survive ship destruction each time.
I wrote a story about this a while back that I posted here, where basically the ship's bunks and off-duty quarters were safe rooms with small warp drives that jetted out from the ship if it went into structure and were recovered if it survived. On-duty crew needed to dive towards other safe rooms and escape pods to get away though, so they always represented the majority of deaths.
When you consider that most ships in EVE aren't insta-popped, this gives the crew plenty of time to escape most of the time. Possibly not in a fleet battle though.
I imagine everything in EVE is sped up, so that 3-4 second journey from entering structure to pop is actually a several minute long ordeal. While not enough for all crewmen to get to the escape pods, I'm sure a sizable number would make it out. At that point they're on their own as to establishing leadership and getting back to safe territory.
But one thing's for sure, the ships have crews (supported by the chronicles, and the visuals on the ships themselves). It'd be interesting if this was incorporated somehow into the gameplay, like with crew management or having crews as another resource 'resource' like tritanium or something else entirely. Is this in the pipe?
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Nachshon
Caldari
Tyrfing Securities
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Posted - 2006.12.30 19:07:00 -
[20]
What happens when a missile launcher jams? I activate an appropriate maintainance bot and repair the thing by remote.
Power surge in the engine core? Pfft. I didn't get 5 ranks in Engineering for nothing. I tap into the power grid, and divert power as needed.
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Yoshito Sanders
Amarr
Yazata Spenta
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.12.30 22:20:00 -
[21]
Ok. Now, do all of that at the same time, while keeping your ships shields online, aiming and firing your guns/weapons, keeping those hardeners going, toggling your booster, locking new enemies, and doing all the other stuff you need to do while you're in the middle of combat.
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Nachshon
Caldari
Tyrfing Securities
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Posted - 2006.12.30 22:26:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nachshon on 30/12/2006 22:27:24
That is the miracle of capsule technology - you can do that with a thought.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.31 03:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: James Duar
I tend to believe that despite what that one chronicle said, the loss of all of the crew on a battleship is a relatively rare occurrence and that our ships would in fact have a quite a large number of crew escape systems, allowing most of the crew to survive ship destruction each time.
Ye, good luck being stranded in YZ-LQL with no habited planet around for lightyears tho :)
Every system has stargates though, and stargates almost certainly have some kind of crew (the structures themselves have windows on them), so I imagine you warp to either a gate or to a station.
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Feral Karkassia
Minmatar
Singularity Trafficers
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Posted - 2006.12.31 08:47:00 -
[24]
I think if people were ejecting by the hundreds or even the thousands, we'd see it; after all, ten Prisoners sit there screaming in a cargo can until you pick them up, why would your own ship's crew become invisible?
Anyway, that Eve chronicle does make it pretty clear, and I imagine that during a fight where your ship is taken into structure (and you see structure fires, for example) many would die anyway.
So as far as crew death? Yeah, I think it happens. I just wanted to know if there was a crew, most of the time. :P
With the fiction I'm writing now, I've made it so that if the pod is damaged and the capsuleer is still on-board and hasn't self-destructed, or if the ship is older and not converted, one can fly it like a "normal" captain, i.e. not in a pod. There's a computerized interface, then, and it still works faster than giving voice commands, but not as fast as a pod-pilot's work.
Please, make the Wolf blue again!!! |
Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.31 11:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Feral Karkassia
I think if people were ejecting by the hundreds or even the thousands, we'd see it; after all, ten Prisoners sit there screaming in a cargo can until you pick them up, why would your own ship's crew become invisible?
'Coz of the way the game is designed (lag, etc). Fiction != ingame
Originally by: Feral Karkassia
With the fiction I'm writing now, I've made it so that if the pod is damaged and the capsuleer is still on-board and hasn't self-destructed, or if the ship is older and not converted, one can fly it like a "normal" captain, i.e. not in a pod. There's a computerized interface, then, and it still works faster than giving voice commands, but not as fast as a pod-pilot's work.
There's a little problem there. The pod interface eliminated the need for command crews and such, being a direct interface into the ship. That's why pod piloted ships have less crew. Any sane capsule pilot wouldn't even have his ship built with command crews in mind (certainly not TII pilots). If you decide to hire the crew members that can do your work for you, you're facing a pretty big re-build of your ship (which wouldn't only have pilot interfaces but secondary sub-systems for 'normal' travel) and more costs.
A capsuleer'd never stand for that :D
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Benin Vivar
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.07 00:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Feral Karkassia
With the fiction I'm writing now, I've made it so that if the pod is damaged and the capsuleer is still on-board and hasn't self-destructed, or if the ship is older and not converted, one can fly it like a "normal" captain, i.e. not in a pod. There's a computerized interface, then, and it still works faster than giving voice commands, but not as fast as a pod-pilot's work.
Additionally, I beleive I read in one of the chronicles that the reason pod-clones are so reliable is that the minute a pod is breached in any way the pilot is injected with a poison and a scan of his or her brain is taken and then transferred to a clone. If your pod was damaged while you were in it you're probably going to wake up a couple systems away. Or is that what you were referring to when you posted "and hasn't self-destructed"?
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Marine HK4861
Caldari
Seoltachd
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Feral Karkassia
With the fiction I'm writing now, I've made it so that if the pod is damaged and the capsuleer is still on-board and hasn't self-destructed, or if the ship is older and not converted, one can fly it like a "normal" captain, i.e. not in a pod. There's a computerized interface, then, and it still works faster than giving voice commands, but not as fast as a pod-pilot's work.
I assume you mean the pod pilot leaves his capsule so he can use the ship's computerised interface?
Not a good idea. If the ship is then subsequently destroyed, then the pilot's consciousness cannot be transferred efficiently and so the pilot then wakes up in his medical clone, the clone would be from when he last updated.
Given that a proper mind copy has a very good chance of turning the person into a vegetable, the clone would be a low quality personality copy from the time of update.
In theory, you would lose all memories since you last updated and you could lose some memories you had even at the time of the update.
Note I said memory, not just skill training. Losing a part of who you are is somewhat more important than some artifical skill software that's been uploaded into your head.
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Frezik
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 04:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Bastogne
Pods just replace the bridge crew.
Never liked this explanation. Chronicals seem to indicate that all ships (not just frigs) see a significant reduction in crew size over the entire ship. The bridge crew would not make up a significant fraction of the crew on something cruiser-sized or bigger. T2 ships should see even more reductions.
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Feral Karkassia
Minmatar
Mean Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.16 10:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Marine HK4861
Originally by: Feral Karkassia
With the fiction I'm writing now, I've made it so that if the pod is damaged and the capsuleer is still on-board and hasn't self-destructed, or if the ship is older and not converted, one can fly it like a "normal" captain, i.e. not in a pod. There's a computerized interface, then, and it still works faster than giving voice commands, but not as fast as a pod-pilot's work.
I assume you mean the pod pilot leaves his capsule so he can use the ship's computerised interface?
Not a good idea. If the ship is then subsequently destroyed, then the pilot's consciousness cannot be transferred efficiently and so the pilot then wakes up in his medical clone, the clone would be from when he last updated.
Given that a proper mind copy has a very good chance of turning the person into a vegetable, the clone would be a low quality personality copy from the time of update.
In theory, you would lose all memories since you last updated and you could lose some memories you had even at the time of the update.
Note I said memory, not just skill training. Losing a part of who you are is somewhat more important than some artifical skill software that's been uploaded into your head.
Actually, his consciousness would not be transferred at all--he would be dead, since it's the pod that broadcasts his memories.
It IS a bad idea. :P But for fiction, it serves its purpose nicely--because if he is unable to operate from the (malfunctioning!) pod, he has a backup system that works nicely for his interactions with a crew.
Please, make the Wolf's propulsion trails blue again!!! |
Nardon
Gallente
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.01.16 13:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Benin Vivar
Additionally, I beleive I read in one of the chronicles that the reason pod-clones are so reliable is that the minute a pod is breached in any way the pilot is injected with a poison and a scan of his or her brain is taken and then transferred to a clone. If your pod was damaged while you were in it you're probably going to wake up a couple systems away. Or is that what you were referring to when you posted "and hasn't self-destructed"?
While the crew suffers a grim fate the pod pilot just takes the fast lane to oblivion. Pretty cowardly behaviour, don't you think? ;)
After all the scanner should have done all the work before the toxin is even going to affect the brain. Otherwise you might wake with your brain in panic mode. :P
Just for the record I don't like the idea of crewed ships in eve. Though arguing against crews seems sacrosanct as the prime fiction states otherwise.
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