and you -Çrobably didn't fly abaddon before com-Çlaning about 1350m/s rattle s-Çeed.. lol

If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull.

True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story.

Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness.


Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for sh*ts and giggles.
In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not?

Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sh*t like this in cruiser gangs.
https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png
Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was.
Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately?

True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story.

Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness.


Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for sh*ts and giggles.
In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not?

Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sh*t like this in cruiser gangs.
https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png
Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was.
Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately?

You make some valid points here.. but with a long point and a fast ECM platform, you can cripple a snake to get the big brawlers in to finish before the heavies can catch up.

My point here is not only can you not outrun, they are soo slow anyone smart can re-ship to deal with it. If you need to slow them down even more, drag bubbles 50 km off the gate and you use of the MJD is not null and void.

*chuckles* I've killed and died to rattlesnakes friend. Yourself on the other hand obviously has not had much experience outside of PvE given that fitting you posted, I've never seen any fitted like that.

Trust me from experience in small gang PvP situation rattlesnakes are the best battleships out there excluding marauders. If your talking large scale fleet situations such as you get in karma fleet then they are not as good as some of the others due to not being able to volley stuff off the field. In small and mid gang then it is a different story though.

Nawh, that is silly.

With the exception of the Nestor and the Barghest, i.e. ones you can't farm via anomalies, all the pirate battleships have tumbled in price over the past year, and it's not just the over-farming. Yes Grr Gons is obligatory in that the Rattlesnake has perhaps taken a huge dive in price, but it's not like other regions don't have lots of ratting going on too. As of writing this post...

Bhaalgorn - 406m
Vindicator - 608
Nightmare - 368
Rattlesnake - 338
Machariel - 458


Mach sees pretty good usage; you can rat, fleet, or solo with it just fine. Clearly they know how to farm in Angel Space too. It might be a little higher in a musical sov scenario, but not by that much.

agreed it is crap that just to use a weapon system they are designed for that they need to waste a ship bonus to use them. Everyone asked for mid slot and to this guys point if it's gonna be laid out like slicer then make it fast and give it optimal bonus ... or just do what everyone is telling you and make that slot a mid!!!. No one will fly this ship anymore and you have failed for the punnisher. maybe you'll get it right next year when you need to buff it again because nobody still uses.. much like you are now having to re buff the rifter because you didn't listen to anybody.also tristan needs more of a nerf I don't know why you have such a hard on for all the gallente ships fozzie and insist they be the best ships in eve but get over it.

most other changes are good I'm just sick of the punnisher sucking for so long and this is the BS you come up with... moronic

What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.

Um, Fozzie, ever considered dropping Artillery PG a tad versus just adding PG to hulls that don't need it?

I mean...you compare the PG needs of HML, RLML's and HAMs and they are mostly on par. But AC's and Arty are like two completely different weapon systems.

Orthrus DPS nerf of 12.5% is OK. it just means that your kitefag cancer takes a little longer to kill you at 40km, which allows you to table flip a bit less and sulk less often. GG.

The problem is the oversupply of PG and fitting capacity here. That remains unresolved.

The Navy osprey will still remain uncompetitive. The extra drones are handy, but it's still a completely subpar missile boat with nothing going for it. Just a little bit less of nothing, now.

Gila and Worm nerfs are long overdue. They'll still be popular, but now just a bit slower at killdozering the bejeezus out of everything. kinda the same orthrus argument, viz, the tanks are just a wee bit OP. The CPU nerf on the Worm might be interesting, as it has some really tight fitting already. Will reserve judgment on that.

Barghest buff is...welcome, i guess. It still needs a little something. Also a smaller model. it's bigger than most capitals.

Drone frigates should be able to field a full flight of drones. Tristan is hardly even OP, so -10ms is good enough to "bring it back in line".

Speaking of drone frigates that have gimped drone bays, Crucifier and Sentinel both deserve to field 5 light drones. They're good ships as it is, but are more geared toward ewar support, but if they had the full flight of drones it would make them more usable for solo and small gangs.

Why would you try and brawl mike tyson when you can shoot him from across the room?
Yay great.. you out brawled brawlers. That's idiots fighting you. Snipe the rattle. Make it run. You don't have to scram it. A kill is not always the only way to win a fight.

Admittedly I'm used to fighting over objectives. If you are just out to get kills them sure you have a point.

Price wise sure, pvp wise no. A mach, vindi or barhest is a lot scarier to face then a rattler.

A mach, definitley not, the rattlesnake is much better, even a tempest does more damage these days. A vindi is good, but it does less dps and has to get close to apply its damage, so again the rattlesnake it much better. The barghest I haven't had so much experience with so I couldn't say.

Ok I agree that Worm/Gila/Snake are all over powered for their class. I love them all and think they are great ships. I agree that a modification in stats is due. But why does CCP always seem to miss the target on what the actual problem is when the suggest a fix.

The problem why those ships are overpowered isn't that the have two many low slots or too much CPU. It is that they have a 300/500/275% bonus to drone damage. That is the stat that needs to be changed not the removal of a low slot. Allow some variation in fitting and keep the low slot and CPU intact @Fozzie and just reduce the drone damage bonus by "x" amount to get the desired effect.

OTOH, you're getting more slots than other ships. In the end it's final stats that matter, not how you achieve them (mostly). Not that I'm fan of cap bonus, but this particular change doesn't break anything. You're getting stats improvements, a slot, little bit of DPS and considerable cut of cap consumption. When it's applied, who cares how it was achieved?

Again, yet again, I will plump for a rewrite of arty PG costs to come down. Lets just take frig weapons;

Dual light beam laser II 8 PG / 11 CPU
Small Focused Beam II 13 PG / 19 CPU

250mm Artyillery II 9 PG / 13 CPU
280mm Artillery II 13 PG / 16 CPU

75mm Railgun II 2 PG / 6 CPU
125mm Railgun II 8 PG / 16 CPU
150mm Railgun II 10 PG / 27 CPU

Rocket Launcher II 4 PG / 17 CPU
Light Missile II 7 PG / 14 CPU

Combat Frigate hull base fittings:
Rifter (buffed) 38 PG / 128 CPU
Punisher (buffed) 67 PG / 140 CPU
Incursus 45 PG / 135 CPU
Merlin 40 PG / 180 CPU

OK...so the Punisher now has the powergrid to possibly fit Small Focused Beam II's with some fitting rigs, but the Rifter? Lolololololololololololol.

The Rifter needs at least 39 PG to fit the arty and something else. Minimum, even taking into account the skill benefits of PGU and AWU 5 which most frig pilots won't have for a couple of years. The Punisher has nearly TWICE the PG of the Rifter. The Merlin, though a shield tanker and a Caldari, has the CPU to fit rails. The Incursus hardly ever fits rails, but it can fit 125's easily.

The Rifter is so far off being balanced for artillery it's a joke. The only fits concievable have zero tank, zero tracking mods and are basically guns gaffa taped to a MWD. That's not sensible.

The Rifter needs ~51 PG to be an effective artillery boat for 280's (being barely enough for 3 x 280's and 1 x MWD; all other fitting being allowed by skill savings on weapon upgrades skills). Yes this will result in some 400 plate tanked AC boats with luxe fitting ease, but without ~51 PG the Rifter can never be an effective arty platform.

OK...so the Punisher now has the powergrid to possibly fit Small Focused Beam II's with some fitting rigs, but the Rifter? Lolololololololololololol.

The Rifter needs at least 39 PG to fit the arty and something else. Minimum, even taking into account the skill benefits of PGU and AWU 5 which most frig pilots won't have for a couple of years. The Punisher has nearly TWICE the PG of the Rifter. The Merlin, though a shield tanker and a Caldari, has the CPU to fit rails. The Incursus hardly ever fits rails, but it can fit 125's easily.

no T1 cruiser should be able to solo C3 sites. None. Zip. Nil. Even T3's struggle to do it for less than a jillion ISK, and you cannot get the same tank/gank out of them. It's impossible to get a passive tanked Tengu with 700 DPS and 650+ tank. (it's more likely 450 DPS and 700 tank, which you all rightly point out, is insufficient DPS).

lets continue to force amarr to have ONLY laser weapon based frigates.

EVERY OTHER RACE IN THE GAME HAS 2 WEAPON SYSTEMS IN THEIR FRIGATE LINE UP!

amarr? lasers. EF IT screw missiles screw drones, screw amarr. just give the punisher rockets already.

Caldari 2 missile frigates 1 hybrid frigate
gallente 3 hybrid 1 drone
minmatar 1 missile 2 projectile
amarr....... 3 energy turrets

just give amarr their missile frigate (to follow khanid) or completely change ONE of the amarr frigates to be a drone ship so that pilots can have a combat drone ship line

t1 amarr frigate(combat drones[should be punisher])/ t1 amarr cruiser(combat drones[probably maller])/ prophecy/ armageddon

No, give the Crucifier a full drone bay so that it's actually usable in solo and small gang pvp as more than just ewar support.