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CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 13389	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:00:08 - [1] - Quote Hey everyone! We are planning a big set of ship and module updates for this Winter, including 13 new ships, module tiericide and much more. This thread will cover some of the ship balance tweaks we are currently planning so we can start gathering your feedback. Many of these changes were sparked by discussion with the community, and I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to pitch your ideas and feedback to us on the forums, reddit, blogs, podcasts and at real life events. Special thanks to community member Suitonia who produces tons of great content on his blog and on youtube. Quite a few of the balance changes in this pass were inspired by his feedback. The changes in this thread are primarily focused on T1 frigates and faction ships of all sizes (with one HAC buff thrown in). We're really interested in hearing what you think. Breacher: The Breacher is in a pretty decent place overall, but we think it's could use a bit of help to really shine (and it is quite underused) so we're planning this slight mobility improvement. -0.08 inertia, +5 m/s Tormentor: Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones. +10m3 Dronebay Rifter and Slasher: Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs. Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG Tristan: Slight speed drop to the current top-dog of T1 frigates to help even out the field. The Tristan is a great and flexible ship, and doesn't really need to be quite as fast as it currently is. -10 m/s Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level Firetail and Hookbill: We're planning moderate buffs to the two least used Navy Frigates. The Firetail now matches the Fleet Stabber and Fleet Hurricane tracking bonus, and the Hookbill gets a bit better with kinetic and a ton better with other damage types. Firetail: Increase tracking bonus to 10% per level Hookbill: Change damage bonus to 25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp Navy Osprey: The Navy Osprey is well below the power curve and overshadowed by other ships overlapping its role. The goal of these changes are to refocus the ship as a flexible destroyer of small ships worthy of a favoured role in the Caldari Navy's auxiliary forces. All in all, these changes leave the Navy Osprey with a moderate damage increase (6.75 effective launchers instead of 6, and the added drones) with extra benefits when using non-kinetic damage types. The second utility high also opens up new options for energy warfare. -1 Launcher (second utility high) Change the damage bonus to 25% Kinetic, 20% EM/Therm/Exp +100 pwg +15 dronebay and bandwidth Sacrilege: Quality of life bonus for roaming Sacs, while continuing to bring the ship closer in line with Amarrian (and Khanid) trends in drone use. +50m3 dronebay Worm and Gila: Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes. Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Orthrus: Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level Barghest: The Barghest is underperforming a tad in our eyes, so this change provides a slight DPS buff at high skill levels (9 effective launchers vs the previous 8.75) while providing a second utility high. -1 Launcher (second utility high) Change damage bonus to 10% per level As we keep working and incorporate feedback, it's very possible that some of these changes may be adjusted or removed, or that more could be added. This is also not the complete list of balance changes coming this Winter, keep an eye on this forum section for the latest updates. We really want to hear your feedback on these proposals. Let us know what you think! Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Madbuster73 C.Q.B Snuffed Out 148	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:00:49 - [2] - Quote First! I am excited!
Destoya Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 525	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:07:02 - [3] - Quote Big Orthrus, Gila, Worm nerfs. Can't say that they don't deserve it though.
Anthar Thebess 1348	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:10:16 - [4] - Quote What about Phantasm ???????????? Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Gradur Dohr Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion 41	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:11:42 - [5] - Quote CCP STAHP PLS!!!!!!!!!!!111!1!!111!111
Ransu Asanari AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 441	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:18:14 - [6] - Quote Thanks for listening to the suggestions regarding the damage specific bonuses for the Hookbill and Navy Osprey. I hope some of those types of changes can make it to the other damage-bonused missile ships, so we have more situations where we have to decide whether it's worth it to swap missile ammo to try to take advantage of resist holes.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1216	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:18:49 - [7] - Quote Destoya wrote: Big Orthrus, Gila, Worm nerfs. Can't say that they don't deserve it though. hardly that big, rattlesnake should lose a slot though especially a high and launcher too tone down the dps, i still think they should be reverted too 5 drones then you could sort out the strange bonuses they have. orthrus needs more nerfs surely.. punisher getting 1 more slot than other ships is odd, surely there is a better solution like switching a high too the low instead and just buff the cap regen instead of giving it the lame laser cap bonus T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Tzu Wu THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two 57	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:21:55 - [8] - Quote Gila definitely needed to be toned down a bit.
Kismeteer GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 850	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:22:39 - [9] - Quote Love the boosts to the navy osprey!
Karti Aivo KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 33	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:22:50 - [10] - Quote Youre still missing out on giving the Nestor an 8th Highslot :(
Amak Boma Dragon Factory 145	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:23:06 - [11] - Quote so punisher is gonna be now better in pvp . but as pve boat it will chew most 1/10 2/10 sites
Tineoidea Asanari Trojan Legion Goonswarm Federation 79	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:23:07 - [12] - Quote That's a lot of nice stuff. Thanks Fozzie.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 43	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:26:33 - [13] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets.
Insidious Hax. Shadow Cartel 14	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:28:01 - [14] - Quote nothing wrong with having a slightly over powering ship
Faren Shalni Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 151	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:29:23 - [15] - Quote /me looks at punisher changes and facepalms So Much Space
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1137	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:30:12 - [16] - Quote I'm not into it. tormentor doesn't need any buff, it's one of the best. rifter is still unusable trash due to bad slots and bad weapons. if you're going to let me fit an artillery brawler, you should give the tracking bonus back. I don't really want to kite with it since it doesn't have the warp disruptor cap bonus. tristan does need nerf, but I'd prefer it to be specifically targeted at kiting tristans. if it were me I'd be setting different drone control ranges for different classes or something. getting 50-60km range for free on a frig is crazy. punisher I'm not sure about, its fittings will probably still be awful. less turrets is generally better than more. all the good frigates get a load of free drones bumping up their dps by 20-40. firetail doesn't need anything while it can still abuse double web easymode scram kite. hookbill is still a slow piece of **** that suffers from it being basically impossible to efficiently invest slots into shield tanking on frigs other than for extenders and ancils. are you guys really ok with people armor tanking a ship with 5 mids 2 lows? I'm glad you're looking at overpowered gurista and mordu ships, but those nerfs don't look like they're enough. and I don't see an entry for the garmur, what gives?
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 137	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:31:20 - [17] - Quote My poor ratting Gila... Thank you Fozzie for all the great info. xoxo Amarisen Gream
big miker Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops 363	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:33:06 - [18] - Quote Oh my god the Barghest CCP. Dual heavy neuts on a fast battleship that's already able to kite very well That thing is going to be insane! Latest video: Ferocious 6.0 Nano battleships / maruaders
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1137	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:33:25 - [19] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up. 2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler.
Liam Inkuras AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 1614	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:33:56 - [20] - Quote YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ONE!!!!11! I wear my goggles at night. Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 43	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:36:12 - [21] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up. 2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler. 2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything. I hate the punisher to such an extent because of this absolutely garbage slot set up, I flew this thing in fall 2013 as apart of faction war and just because of how slow it is coupled with 2 mids is shooting itself in both its feet.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1216	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:37:00 - [22] - Quote hookbill change is good, but you still haven't looked at its other problems, it has so many mids but CPU is too little too use the mids without loads of cpu rigs or using lows for cpu etc,,, unless you have plans too make the passive shield resists use hardly any cpu like the adaptive resistance plating for armour frigs get.. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1137	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:39:03 - [23] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: 2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything. having no midslots is how amarr works. if it's not good, they should change it so it is good, preferably by nerfing webs. and again you're talking about 1v1s, what about gangs? it would be pretty good if its damage wasn't so bad.
Gorski Car 662	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:40:25 - [24] - Quote The Barghest will be op as **** after this Collect this post
Alekseyev Karrde Noir. Mercenary Coalition 1760	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:40:29 - [25] - Quote The Navy Drake and Muninn cry out in the darkness. Comfort them! Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Hashtag Rare Pepe Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:43:30 - [26] - Quote I hope the skill packs will be available when these nerfs come so I can switch from a Gila to an Ishtar to afk rat
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1818	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:43:48 - [27] - Quote Good set of adjustments there. At first glance, none of them looks too overpowering. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 43	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:43:55 - [28] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: 2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything. having no midslots is how amarr works. if it's not good, they should change it so it is good, preferably by nerfing webs. and again you're talking about 1v1s, what about gangs? it would be pretty good if its damage wasn't so bad. Nerfing webs does not incentivize people to use garbage slow ships. I almost always prefer a thorax over an omen purely because the thorax has 4 mid slots that I can put a web or literally any other utility into. It is because of the mid slots that gives ship's their function and versatility. You're going to find the same old same old generic AB punishers with Scramblers or that botched MWD punisher with a disruptor that gets gunned down by ships purely faster than it. Thanks CCP for opening up my empty can of fitting diversity. with its new 4th gun and slight increase in PG and CPU, most of that fitting is going towards the new gun, not fitting anything worth while. I might be able to squeeze some low meta level tracking enhancer into there but what does just a few percent do on small weapon systems? not a lot.
Luanda Hunter KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:46:14 - [29] - Quote I just wonder what will be the role of gilas after this nerf. if they lose their passive ability, they wont just be equaled to the others but will be made completely obsolete imo
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 143	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:51:36 - [30] - Quote Buffs to the Rifter. Nice :D
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3340	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:53:16 - [31] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Rifter and Slasher: Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs. Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG Great, maybe now it will be better able to compete with the vastly superior slas.... Quote: Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG ...welp. Quote: Punisher: ... These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.[/i] +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level I'm not a fan of breaking the rules without good reason, and an extra slot for the Punisher over all other T1 frigs feels like a step too far. Also I'm not a fan of increasing the turrets whilst removing the damage bonus since that pushes us back towards the days of using off-racial guns for the poor thing - this is an instant candidate for some max armour tank and 125mm autocannon abomination. On the other hand, 5 lows is very welcome. How about: * -1 highslot, +1 lowslot * improved baseline capacitor capacity and/or recharge rate * increase small energy turret damage per level from 5% to 7.5% or 10% Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1216	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:54:02 - [32] - Quote so with gila and worm losing a lowslot effectively a DDA they still at best lose 10% damage off drone dps, they still have plenty of dps and tank and projection, the gila in particular will still out dps the drake and ferox, i think really all the gurista ships should lose the 2 OP drones thing for a normalised 5 drones less dps setup with the bonuses sorted out properly and even then they could still afford too lose a launcher before there dps is at a more respectable level. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Genghis Tron Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 32	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:55:46 - [33] - Quote Why are you guys buffing the Tormentor? Saying that it's underused is kind of telling.. It really is good the way it is. BOOM SHAKALAKA
Phoenix Jones Small-Arms Fire 1569	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:56:12 - [34] - Quote The punisher should really be the Amarr frigate rocket boat. Probably the only bad I see in this. Rest is fine. Yaay!!!!
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2172	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:56:53 - [35] - Quote That worm nerf is utterly savage.
Jaime Wulfe Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 16	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:58:00 - [36] - Quote Can we get those together with SP for $? I dont wanna wait some days to be able to fly it.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1216	Posted - 2015.10.16 17:58:43 - [37] - Quote afkalt wrote: That worm nerf is utterly savage. a whole 30-40 dps loss off a good 350dps or so is hardly savage is it?.. have you seeen the dps on other frigs compared and that doesn't even mention how strong their tank is and the projection of drones+rockets T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Luanda Hunter KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:03:54 - [38] - Quote Harvey James wrote: so with gila and worm losing a lowslot effectively a DDA they still at best lose 10% damage off drone dps, they still have plenty of dps, tank and projection, the gila in particular will still out dps the drake and ferox, i think really all the gurista ships should lose the 2 OP drones thing for a normalised 5 drones less dps setup with the bonuses sorted out properly and even then they could still afford too lose a launcher before there dps is at a more respectable level and then ,maybe then they won't stomp on other missile/drone brawlers. yes, that's why its an expensive faction ship and not a 50 mill standard bc. the question is, what will be its role after the nerf. nothing?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2172	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:04:24 - [39] - Quote I too use overheated rage and augmented drones ALL the time...... I know you hate drone boats, but your bias is daft. The CPU cut alone would have been a big hit.
Hendrink Collie Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation. 73	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:04:36 - [40] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: 2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything. having no midslots is how amarr works. if it's not good, they should change it so it is good, preferably by nerfing webs. and again you're talking about 1v1s, what about gangs? it would be pretty good if its damage wasn't so bad. Nerfing webs does not incentivize people to use garbage slow ships. I almost always prefer a thorax over an omen purely because the thorax has 4 mid slots that I can put a web or literally any other utility into. It is because of the mid slots that gives ship's their function and versatility. You're going to find the same old same old generic AB punishers with Scramblers or that botched MWD punisher with a disruptor that gets gunned down by ships purely faster than it. Thanks CCP for opening up my empty can of fitting diversity. with its new 4th gun and slight increase in PG and CPU, most of that fitting is going towards the new gun, not fitting anything worth while. I might be able to squeeze some low meta level tracking enhancer into there but what does just a few percent do on small weapon systems? not a lot. EDIT: the only thing I see the punisher might be useful for is fitting beams and having really high alpha but I can't justify such a limited set up. Could be a powerful niche if used in cheap, mid-scale frigate fleets though... ala harpy?
11th ASURA Cancer Therapy Ginnungagap 3	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:07:01 - [41] - Quote Why can't I see things about Garmur? It SHOULD be nerfed as well.
Pyralissa Kite Co. Space Trucking 28	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:07:44 - [42] - Quote Exciting changes! My two biggest critiques: This change wont be enough to topple the Orthus (it's still got far, far too much fitting, speed and control) but it's nice that it wont be quite so effective at killing tackle, allowing an opportunity for heavier tackle to land. The Garmur is, if anything, better then Orthrus and in many ways obsoletes interceptors. Shocked to see it wasn't at all touched in this pass. I think there is also a general problem of ships being too fast but that's a bigger issue then a cleanup balance patch.
Esnaelc Sin'led AdAstra. Beach Club 36	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:07:57 - [43] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. What ? Where ? When ? How ? Moooooooore about that !!!!!
Xindi Kraid Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. 1052	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:08:46 - [44] - Quote I still think Navy Osprey should be/have been a hybrid platform. Different combat styles are all well and good, but right now the navy ship lineup for Caldari very poorly reflects the fact that Caldari use Missiles AND hybrids.
Ix Method Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:08:47 - [45] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Change damage bonus to 25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp This is the best thing you've done since, well, the Navy ewar topic. Just thankyou. Travelling at the speed of love.
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1777	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:09:14 - [46] - Quote Minus one low slot on the Gila is pretty savage when the ship is passive tanked for PVE. I can certainly see the point For PVP, there it is more balanced as a change. Could you please have a look to see if there is an alternative that doesn't make it a poor choice for PVE, particuarly solo C3 running, as that is not going to be practical any more, either insufficient tank, or unable to break the sleepers in a reasonable time, remember we are never more than moments away from 6 cloaky proteus. We already need to refit with a depot, to do them well, with a low slot less, there is nothing to work with. Would losing a missile launcher, and giving the new caldari missile damage types, be a better alternative? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Soltys 26	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:11:53 - [47] - Quote Quote: Breacher: The Breacher is in a pretty decent place overall, but we think it's could use a bit of help to really shine (and it is quite underused) so we're planning this slight mobility improvement. -0.08 inertia, +5 m/s +5 m/s for this ship is 1.39% difference from its base (360 m/s) speed (and generally remains as such % after all skills/bonuses/modules). Inertia is -2.25% . I sincerely don't see how will that make anyone use that ship any more than it's used now, though maybe I don't see subtle things.
Mario Putzo 1548	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:12:14 - [48] - Quote looks nice...would love to see the 25/20 bonus applied to other damage "locked" ships though as well.
Shp3 TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh 19	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:13:29 - [49] - Quote so about that orthrus... current dps with 2 BCU: 525 after that: 393,75 cant even fight a caracal in it anymore.. gg ccp cap was way too bad and the ship was way too squishy already to be OP... and the Worm & Gila nerf im not even starting about RIP the last 2 useful Pirate faction cruisers
Bevici Roden Sleeper Insanity Wrong Hole. 17	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:15:30 - [50] - Quote I do have some concerns about how the gila nerf will impact PvE in wormholes. I feel like the gila was in a good spot as a low sp alternative rather than a rattlesnake or a other faction battleships or other ships for PvE vs sleepers. I hope that the gila will still be able to run c3 sites well in particular with t2/meta modules.
Helia Tranquilis State War Academy Caldari State 34	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:20:17 - [51] - Quote Would trade a high or lowslot to a midslot through entire Punisher line (incl. AF's).
Sil Denafil SnaiLs aNd FroGs Drama Sutra 0	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:22:15 - [52] - Quote Orthrus, worms and gilas ... Really, why nerf OP ships instead of buffing other pirate faction ships that are underpowered (Cruor, Cynabal, ...). These babies are worth 10 - 15 times their T1 counterparts, so they should be overpowered, that's a trade the pilot is willing to make, pumping more money into them for having a dominatig ship on the field, at the risk of losing a lot of money of it blows up. Regarding worms and gilas, I also wonder why they end up with less total slots than the T2 counterparts (Ishkur, Ishtar) or other pirate ships of the same tier (7 slots for frigs, 10 for cruisers, here they'll be stuck at 6 and 9). I really think - 20 CPU or - 1 LS was already a huge nerf, both will kill the ships. In the same time, Barghest buff on a ship that already is absolutely OP. Go figure ...
Arcos Vandymion White Beast Inc. 103	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:32:52 - [53] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Firetail and Hookbill: We're planning moderate buffs to the two least used Navy Frigates. The Firetail now matches the Fleet Stabber and Fleet Hurricane tracking bonus, and the Hookbill gets a bit better with kinetic and a ton better with other damage types. Firetail: Increase tracking bonus to 10% per level Hookbill: Change damage bonus to 25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp Nice - spread that to all the "poor" kinetic locked ships that don't need to bother with tracking and tracking disruption* and finally give us Blaze/Bolt/Desolation/Lux/Shock/Storm so I can light up the nightsky with explosively recycled trashcans ... Revs with Blaze ... sexy *(because it'll be a completely different module noone is likely to use because it's even more fringe than TD which is eshewed in favour of damps or jams usually because TDs don't affect missiles)
Garrett Osinov Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:33:02 - [54] - Quote Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? Gila was an exellent PvE ship ! Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!!
Hendrink Collie Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation. 73	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:34:02 - [55] - Quote Sil Denafil wrote: Orthrus, worms and gilas ... Really, why nerf OP ships instead of buffing other pirate faction ships that are underpowered (Cruor, Cynabal, ...).. Power creep anyone?
Alladir Alladarium 5	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:34:25 - [56] - Quote As someone completly unrelated to pvp, is worm still gonna be a decent ship after nerf? I love it aestheticaly speaking, wanted to try it out in the future, thx.
Soldarius Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 1393	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:34:34 - [57] - Quote Nice changes. I don't think any of them are bad and a couple are pretty exciting. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Hendrink Collie Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation. 73	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:35:09 - [58] - Quote Garrett Osinov wrote: Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? If they that skillpoint propasal, YES.
Soldarius Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 1393	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:35:45 - [59] - Quote Arcos Vandymion wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Firetail and Hookbill: We're planning moderate buffs to the two least used Navy Frigates. The Firetail now matches the Fleet Stabber and Fleet Hurricane tracking bonus, and the Hookbill gets a bit better with kinetic and a ton better with other damage types. Firetail: Increase tracking bonus to 10% per level Hookbill: Change damage bonus to 25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp Nice - spread that to all the "poor" kinetic locked ships that don't need to bother with tracking and tracking disruption* and finally give us Blaze/Bolt/Desolation/Lux/Shock/Storm so I can light up the nightsky with explosively recycled trashcans ... Revs with Blaze ... sexy *(because it'll be a completely different module noone is likely to use because it's even more fringe than TD which is eshewed in favour of damps or jams usually because TDs don't affect missiles) Guess you missed the part where they are introducing Missile Disruptors this winter. Also, kinetic lock on missiles is AIDS. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 219	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:45:41 - [60] - Quote ty Fozzie, nice stuff.
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders 528	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:53:09 - [61] - Quote Just off the top of my head: Torm is baller, doesn't need/warrant a buff. Don't balance based purely off usage stats please. Rifter and slasher won't be total poop, yay! Barghest is already arguably OP, these changes push it well into OP zone. Orthrus is baller due to point range and speed/agility, on top of RLMLs, minor DPS reduction doesn't change that. Might want to consider nocking 5m/s off as well edit: No nerf to the garmur? Are you happy with where it is at compared to other frigs?
Arcos Vandymion White Beast Inc. 103	Posted - 2015.10.16 18:59:51 - [62] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Arcos Vandymion wrote: *(because it'll be a completely different module noone is likely to use because it's even more fringe than TD which is eshewed in favour of damps or jams usually because TDs don't affect missiles) Guess you missed the part where they are introducing Missile Disruptors this winter. Also, kinetic lock on missiles is AIDS. You talking about this part of my statement that you quoted?
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1818	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:00:36 - [63] - Quote Garrett Osinov wrote: Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? Gila was an exellent PvE ship ! Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!! The Gila still is an excellent PVP ship. It just does 35 less DPS if you fit three Drone Damage Amplifier II's instead of four. This is hardly ruining the game for anyone. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 188	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:07:49 - [64] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Worm and Gila: Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes. Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU The rattlesnake should have the same treatement. It is an incredibly powerful PvP ship. It probably is seeing less use due to some undesirable traits for large scale fleet use, although in a solo or small gang situation it has overwhelming dps and application when fitted with rapid heavy missiles. Also did you forget the Garmur? I like the rest of the changes though, very nice work. Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
Garrett Osinov Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:11:40 - [65] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Garrett Osinov wrote: Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? Gila was an exellent PvE ship ! Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!! The Gila still is an excellent PVP ship. It just does 35 less DPS if you fit three Drone Damage Amplifier II's instead of four. This is hardly ruining the game for anyone. 3 Damage mods + damage control now, after the nerf it will be 2 damage mods + damage control or 3 damage mods.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1818	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:14:26 - [66] - Quote Esnaelc Sin'led wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. What ? Where ? When ? How ? Moooooooore about that !!!!! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=449197&find=unread Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 599	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:16:03 - [67] - Quote Fozzie, Isnt the Muninn needing a balance revisit as well. I see you tweaked the sac, but no muninn? As it stands the Muninn is simply outclassed by the fleet hurricane (which was a good buff to the HFI mind you) in every situation. Fleet cane is comparable in price, insures about the same, has considerably more alpha, comparable range more tracking and more tank in armor/shield fleet config. Would it be terrible to give minmatar a good brawler that isnt the sleip? Drop a turret off the muninn, increase the damage bonus, and add a mid. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 45	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:27:07 - [68] - Quote Why just not to increase Punisher's cap? And also give a bit of everything, but excapt of drones ofc. Now its bit reatrded even with additional low slot. Also I would give more CPU to Rifter and Slasher than PG, especially for slasher. At least +10 CPU.
Valkin Mordirc 1546	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:27:41 - [69] - Quote EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeee That Barghest is going to be fuckin Nasty, Also digging the buffs on the Nav-Os and Hookbill. Arty Rifters and slashers WOOT, and Arty Firetails with tracking bonus is going to be dank. And for the Tristian being able to project as far as it can, while being able to kite half the things out there, the Nerf is probably a good idea. AND the Sac gets a drone bay now! Woo! Finally it can break 500dps. XD Also although I love the Orthrus, Gila and Worm. I'd have to say a nerf is in order. -20 CPU though and -1 low though is OMGWTFBBQ though for the Worm anyways. But I suppose like you said nothing is set in stone. So it can be changed later if things seem to harsh. Though the Gila will still be doing around 800 with rage and Tech2 Hammers. With Aug Hammers Heated it'll be doing 900. With HAMs anyways. Love it. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Richard Torvel The Northern Manufactories 5	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:28:42 - [70] - Quote Keep your hands away from my rattlesnake It's only one of few ships which i like + Iinvest a bit of sp in it.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1216	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:31:18 - [71] - Quote Lidia Caderu wrote: Why just not to increase Punisher's cap? And also give a bit of everything, but excapt of drones ofc. Now its bit reatrded even with additional low slot. indeed im sure 90% of people want no laser cap bonuses if possible, less turrets, better mid slot layouts and much better cap regen compared too the other 3 races. on punisher i suggest -1 high +1 lowslot keep current damage bonus increase mass/speed/agility - much higher cap regen T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
ValentinaDLM Khushakor Clan Matari Safari 797	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:35:26 - [72] - Quote Rifter could use a bit more, like why not +10 CPU +5 PG at least?
Murkar Omaristos The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance 192	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:38:25 - [73] - Quote RIP orthrus/gila, you were fun until fozzie bashed your brains in with the nerf bat.
Valkin Mordirc 1547	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:40:38 - [74] - Quote Murkar Omaristos wrote: RIP orthrus/gila, you were fun until fozzie bashed your brains in with the nerf bat. The Gila will live on. It's not that much of a damage nerf to it. Passive fit Gila's take a huge it though, but PvP wise they are still pretty much going strong. I can probably see another nerf its future. Not to sure about the Worm though. `#DeleteTheWeak`
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1777	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:42:54 - [75] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Garrett Osinov wrote: Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? Gila was an exellent PvE ship ! Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!! The Gila still is an excellent PVP ship. It just does 35 less DPS if you fit three Drone Damage Amplifier II's instead of four. This is hardly ruining the game for anyone. Quite right, the Gila will still be an excellent PVP ship with either a little less damage, or a little less tank. However PVP is not the only use for this ship, It is widely used with a passive tank in cap hostile environments. Removing a low effectively makes this ship sub-effective in this role. Particuarly in hostile PVE environments with a strong chance of involuntary PVP. If however a missile launcher was removed, it would affect PVP and PVE equally without destroying the PVE role. Would that not be better? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1216	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:46:14 - [76] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Garrett Osinov wrote: Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? Gila was an exellent PvE ship ! Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!! The Gila still is an excellent PVP ship. It just does 35 less DPS if you fit three Drone Damage Amplifier II's instead of four. This is hardly ruining the game for anyone. Quite right, the Gila will still be an excellent PVP ship with either a little less damage, or a little less tank. However PVP is not the only use for this ship, It is widely used with a passive tank in cap hostile environments. Removing a low effectively makes this ship sub-effective in this role. Particuarly in hostile PVE environments with a strong chance of PVP. If however a missile launcher was removed, it would affect PVP and PVE equally without destroying the PVE role. Would that not be better? i could see a launcher aswell as the -1 highslot working as an alternative to - lowslot it might end up with less dps mind, especially as one less launcher too OH. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 801	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:51:12 - [77] - Quote Maybe give gila some extra passive shield regen to make passive tanks viable, I don't use them but 3 lowslot gilas can no longer attain viable passive tanks EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Valkin Mordirc 1547	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:53:48 - [78] - Quote Also as a note, I'm really surprised the Garmur wasn't on this list. It's probably the most popular faction frig out there right now with good reason. I know Zkill and looking at it's numbers can be deceiving sometimes but Total kills Tristan:2975 Fed Navy Comet::2964 Garmur: 2,525 Daredevil: 1885 Dram: 1506 Worm 1444 Now we all know the Worm is OP. And We can probably agree the Daredevil and Dram are in pretty good place. But we can also say the Tristan in somewhat OP, but it's cheap as balls, and the Fed Navy is about the same. We can also say the Garmur is a cancer as with links and sebo can point you out in ridiculous ranges. `#DeleteTheWeak`
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1778	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:53:57 - [79] - Quote Harvey James wrote: epicurus ataraxia wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Garrett Osinov wrote: Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? Gila was an exellent PvE ship ! Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!! The Gila still is an excellent PVP ship. It just does 35 less DPS if you fit three Drone Damage Amplifier II's instead of four. This is hardly ruining the game for anyone. Quite right, the Gila will still be an excellent PVP ship with either a little less damage, or a little less tank. However PVP is not the only use for this ship, It is widely used with a passive tank in cap hostile environments. Removing a low effectively makes this ship sub-effective in this role. Particuarly in hostile PVE environments with a strong chance of PVP. If however a missile launcher was removed, it would affect PVP and PVE equally without destroying the PVE role. Would that not be better? i could see a launcher aswell as the -1 highslot working as an alternative to -1 lowslot it might end up with less dps mind, especially as one less launcher too OH. Agreed, losing a launcher is not insignificant, but I believe will provide the balance point without having to revisit it for another nerf. It also balances both PVP and PVE needs effectively and does not retire the Gila as a Cap warfare resistant PVE ship. Loss of a launchers damage can be handled, loss of a low slot changes it's available roles completely. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
ArmyOfMe Hull Breach. Outnumbered. 476	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:56:16 - [80] - Quote I dont really see enough worms and gilas around to say if they should be nerfed or not. However, could you please look into the muninn, as it has issues on all levels atm, and cant compete with other hac's in any way. It can snipe, but the pg required for artys make it impossible to make a good setup (something i can live with, as the tornado is better anyways). But i would really love to see the Muninn being able to compete up close and personal with ac's, which it just cant atm. Other then that, i like the changes, and love the changes to the sac. QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
Alexis Nightwish 337	Posted - 2015.10.16 19:57:13 - [81] - Quote Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place. Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy! CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1218	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:02:03 - [82] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place. Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy! i would rather see normal 5 drones on them with the gal bonus being slightly better than the normal 10% drone damage/HP so that hammerheads would still be strong but not as OP as they are now on them, but the -1 slot is mandatory for all droneboats and why its took them this long too realize gurista ships should follow this aswell is bizzare and the rattle should certainly follow this aswell, but i would agree with the thought of -1 high and launcher over -1 low slot T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1778	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:03:25 - [83] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place. Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy! Remember it does only have two drones, and previously was able to launch full flights of sentries or heavy drones. Damage is applied by the Gila through both missiles and drones, I would argue, that if damage is too high, the missile side of the equation may be a better place to address. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Ransu Asanari AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 446	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:10:17 - [84] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: Damage is applied by the Gila through both missiles and drones, I would argue, that if damage is too high, the missile side of the equation may be a better place to address. The incoming missile disruption modules are going to take care of this. I would like to make sure the Gila is still able to run C3 wormhole PVE sites with passive shield recharge tank. Giving it a bit of a passive recharge shield boost to compensate from losing a Shield Power Relay lowslot would be one way to do it. Other way would be to leave the lowslot, and slightly reduce the drone damage role bonus. But it sounds like the slot layout is part of the problem here.
Matt Faithbringer Rapid Withdrawal 23	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:10:28 - [85] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: 6 cloaky protopedes FTFY
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 289	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:11:59 - [86] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: [i]Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. The prophecy and armageddon were changed into drone boats with unbonused but flexible hardpoints. Currently there is no [combat] cruiser or frigate for the noobs to train before they go into those boats. A side effect of this punisher change removes the last utility high in the amarr frigate lineup as well, with the exception of the executioner. My suggestion for the punisher is to turn it into a mini prophecy/geddon. Doesn't need to be a full compliment of drones or even have a drone damage bonus. 3H/3M/4L with 2 turret and 2 launcher hardpoints or 3/3 depending on drone bandwidth resistance bonus drone tracking/hp? 20m3 bandwidth and decent dronebay It's something that's missing from the amarr lineup. gallente = tristan/algos/vexor/myrm/domi amarr = dragoon/proph/geddon I suppose one could argue and include the ewar ships, but that's more like....... crucifier/arbitrator/curse/pilgrim With this change and a similar change to the maller, the amarr drone boat progression could be........ punisher/dragoon/maller/proph/geddon
Arla Sarain 673	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:15:38 - [87] - Quote 3 ACs are bad. Instead you focus on artillery fits :D FYI Arty rifters are a thing and are pretty fine. AC Slashers do not live without TDs. AC Rifters are outdone by Null loaded neutron atrons, or anything that fits rails or lasers. Overall, pretty underwhelming. Slasher remain a predictable hard counter, and Rifters remain irrelevant. Could atleast give it some speed to reinforce its strength and relieve pressure from plate fits.
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1778	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:21:12 - [88] - Quote Ransu Asanari wrote: epicurus ataraxia wrote: Damage is applied by the Gila through both missiles and drones, I would argue, that if damage is too high, the missile side of the equation may be a better place to address. The incoming missile disruption modules are going to take care of this. I would like to make sure the Gila is still able to run C3 wormhole PVE sites with passive shield recharge tank. Giving it a bit of a passive recharge shield boost to compensate from losing a Shield Power Relay lowslot would be one way to do it. Other way would be to leave the lowslot, and slightly reduce the drone damage role bonus. But it sounds like the slot layout is part of the problem here. I am trying to offer a suggestion, that satisfies the need to reduce the applied damage from a Gila coupled with a strong tank. I think that CCP are uncomfortable with a strong drone biased ship having too many slots. This leads us to either remove a high slot or a low, mids would be quite extreme to remove on this ship. Removing either a high or a low will reduce available DPS. And should resolve the issue. However while removing a high is a complete solution, as you point out, removing a low will require repeated balance passes to bring the Gila back into a healthy state, viable for both PVE and PVP. I hope Gila users both PVE and PVP will agree, and CCP too. We all knew this day would come, and I am sure most are willing to accept that we will lose some damage capability. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mr Spaxi 52	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:21:36 - [89] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up. Not every ship is designed to be used solo, and Punisher is not a solo frigate unless you fit it in a very gimped way. However, -1mid ships (like the Punisher) have a very strong use elsewhere, and this change of slots is going to help it. However, I agree that keeping the damage bonus, -1 high, +1 low is the way to go.
Dzhiku Aslan MamenkinbI CbInki 14	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:23:43 - [90] - Quote change caracal navy issue too pls. It worse than t1 variant/
twit brent Black Anvil Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance 45	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:27:08 - [91] - Quote So disheartened by sacrilege. I thought it was going to finally get its slot layout fixed :(
Zappity Black Aces I N F A M O U S 2496	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:38:34 - [92] - Quote Thank you for the Worm, Gila and Orthrus nerfs as well as the cool explanations in italics of your thinking regarding each ship. Very good! Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
Torei Dutalis IceBox Inc. 36	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:39:21 - [93] - Quote With this proposed change the punisher will have more powergrid than the confessor, just putting that out there.
Merrowing Kion The Reborn The Gorgon Empire 3	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:39:41 - [94] - Quote You forget about Munin. After boost of Hurricane Navy, Munin looked like poor relative behinde it.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2101	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:40:29 - [95] - Quote Quote: Quality of life bonus for roaming Sacs so we talking boxers or briefs? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 503	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:41:07 - [96] - Quote So your just gonna go away from the entire amarr are the capacitor warfare race utility highs lots of capacitor and just say F it, t1 amarrian frigates dont need utility highers F it. lets give all the utility highs to the race that doesnt need them. the gallente AND the minmatar. When the hell does more drones on the sac equal 'khanid trends.' Khanids niche is MISSILES not drones. fix the damn sac! its supposed to excell with hams, and you still haven't FIXED HAMS since they were released and EVEN your own people admitted to a TYPO on the data sheets. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
sten mattson Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance 89	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:44:35 - [97] - Quote Quote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level I am not sure how i feel about that, removing utility high but paving the way for either more tank or an extra tracking computer. But now you go back to the old punisher where you would do more damage with other types of guns than lazors. This may be the return of the autocannon punisher maybe? This definetly is a straight buff to hte support rep/neuting/bait punisher. Come to think of it, this is straight up loss of utility. you loose the utility high and you gain a lowslot. But to be completely honest, there is no such thing as a utility low. Look at the retribution, it has the same slots now except it has better bonuses (tracking!!!) and a utility high slot, but you dont see those flying around every day either now, do you? What the punisher needed was not damage (although it does always help), it was application/utility and you dont get that with additional lowslots, no matter how many you put in there. This change just switched the current punisher into a faster, squishier, less dangerous retribution. What the punisher absolutely needs is a third midslot, but it needs to keep the utility high! A more sensible thing would have been to give it the harb treatment: remove a turret and buff the damage bonus accordingly, and then move a highslot to a mid (or keep the 2 highslots since dual neuts could be interesting) Quote: Tormentor: Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones. +10m3 Dronebay this is a good change considering i can never decide what kind of drones to take with me on a roam, damage or ecm? :P On the other hand, how can it be overlooked? The tormentor is the single most used amarr t1 frigate out there IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Leonardo Adami Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 28	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:46:50 - [98] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place. Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy! Maybe, I think it's to much how about 400% and go from there?
Leonardo Adami Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 28	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:49:07 - [99] - Quote sten mattson wrote: Quote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level I am not sure how i feel about that, removing utility high but paving the way for either more tank or an extra tracking computer. But now you go back to the old punisher where you would do more damage with other types of guns than lazors. This may be the return of the autocannon punisher maybe? This definetly is a straight buff to hte support rep/neuting/bait punisher. Come to think of it, this is straight up loss of utility. you loose the utility high and you gain a lowslot. But to be completely honest, there is no such thing as a utility low. Look at the retribution, it has the same slots now except it has better bonuses (tracking!!!) and a utility high slot, but you dont see those flying around every day either now, do you? What the punisher needed was not damage (although it does always help), it was application/utility and you dont get that with additional lowslots, no matter how many you put in there. This change just switched the current punisher into a faster, squishier, less dangerous retribution. What the punisher absolutely needs is a third midslot, but it needs to keep the utility high! A more sensible thing would have been to give it the harb treatment: remove a turret and buff the damage bonus accordingly, and then move a highslot to a mid (or keep the 2 highslots since dual neuts could be interesting) Quote: Tormentor: Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones. +10m3 Dronebay this is a good change considering i can never decide what kind of drones to take with me on a roam, damage or ecm? :P On the other hand, how can it be overlooked? The tormentor is the single most used amarr t1 frigate out there Tormentors is perfectly fine Fozzie, I don't think it needed any tweaks tbh.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 291	Posted - 2015.10.16 20:50:22 - [100] - Quote Mr Spaxi wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up. Not every ship is designed to be used solo, and Punisher is not a solo frigate unless you fit it in a very gimped way. However, -1mid ships (like the Punisher) have a very strong use elsewhere, and this change of slots is going to help it. However, I agree that keeping the damage bonus, -1 high, +1 low is the way to go. Midslots are king in frigate combat. A midslot gimped ship should excel at something, and the punisher doesn't. All it's got is tank, and in this game that IS NOT A ROLE. In a frigate fleet all that tank does for the punisher is make sure it's a low priority target. The enemy isn't going to shoot at punishers first, they're going to go for logi/dps/ewar before they shoot at the brick. A brick that can't bring a web, or ewar. Inflexible tank, can't shield tank like a lot of other ships because of a lack of mids and a then-useless bonus. Can't active tank. If it's going to be a one-trick pony, at least give it a good trick.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 279	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:05:45 - [101] - Quote The Breacher, Tormentor, Rifter and Slasher buffs are all nice. Tristan nerf is good without hurting it too much. The Punisher change, is not very good. It's not that bad, but if you think about it, the Punisher now has no way to reliably active tank, at least before it could use a Nos / Rep combo, now if you try to active tank it you are at extreme risk of cap problems, and more of a risk of cap warfare. You could fit a cap booster if you forgo prop / point, but that's bad and shouldn't really be taken into consideration for how the ship is balanced. The best way to fly it now will be as a pure buffer fit, so all you've really done is buff it's role as a bait tank but you've damaged it's legitimate combat ability by nerfing the utility high slot. That utility high slot was the only thing that made it stand out among the combat frigates, the ability to field a nos combined with such a high tank and AB sig tank gave it a decent niche role in heavy tackle which is now gone. Firetail and Hookbill buffs both look good. Osprey Navy Issue looks wonderful. Not sure how much the Worm will suffer from this missing low slot. Losing a nano or a DDA is pretty significant. It should probably be fine though.
Glathull Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1182	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:07:13 - [102] - Quote I'm loving the punisher these days. This is going to make it just that much better. You can make 2 mids work, if you're creative. Ignore the complainers, Fozzie. Punisher changes are spot on. I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Floyd1 Azizora Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 0	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:11:12 - [103] - Quote Why cant the punisher follow the amarr progression and become a drone boat instead?
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1220	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:15:17 - [104] - Quote Floyd1 Azizora wrote: Why cant the punisher follow the amarr progression and become a drone boat instead? like we want more droneboats.... also tormentor has some drones anyway T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Doyle Aldurad Stellar Winds Consortium 13	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:16:06 - [105] - Quote SORRY to be the bearer of ill tidings but this: [color="YELLOW"]Worm and Gila: Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes. Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU [/color] But this is garbage in regards to the Gila -- which like EVERY other Pirate cruiser has 15 slots allocated by racial preference.
Yuikko 2	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:31:39 - [106] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. Does this mean I should wait before training the rattle route? its a pretty cool ship for newbies like me but I dont want to focus in it and then have it nerfed like it happened with the drake (focused in it for a long time and got nerfed).
Wendrika Hydreiga 524	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:38:07 - [107] - Quote CCP Fozzie what are you doing?! Leave my beautiful Guristas ships alone! Nooooo! Stooooop! I'm so sad right now that the only thing that would make me feel better would be Guristas SKINS to every Caldari ship. Starting with the Kestrel! And none of that 30 day license stuff please! Thank you CCP Fozzie, you rock! I hope the guilt of gutting my beloved Guristas ships will make you consider this little thing.
Leisha Miranen The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance 14	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:39:37 - [108] - Quote Mmmm everyone loves these pirate faction ships. Better fix that.
Glathull Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1182	Posted - 2015.10.16 21:51:40 - [109] - Quote Yuikko wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. Does this mean I should wait before training the rattle route? its a pretty cool ship for newbies like me but I dont want to focus in it and then have it nerfed like it happened with the drake (focused in it for a long time and got nerfed). There's only one guarantee in this game: eventually, everything gets nerfed. If you like a ship, fly it now while it's worth it and don't look back when it's not. I can't think of any ship skill that only applicable to one single ship. Your training time won't be wasted. I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Tennebrae Umbrascen Repercussus Goonswarm Federation 19	Posted - 2015.10.16 22:49:12 - [110] - Quote I'm curious why you went with just drone capacity for the Sacrilege. I've often viewed it as the armor/brawler counterpart to the Cerberus. The Cerb gets range and speed while the Sac gets tank and sig. Both ships have the same level of damage bonus (Caldari kinetic-specific being the only exception) in their 5% to RoF and 5% to damage, but the Cerberus wins out with 6 launchers while the Sacrilege only has 5, which leaves the Sacrilege with pretty bad dps in most situations. Being down a launcher already, it also has the disadvantage of not getting to use many lows for BCUs like the Cerb can. Has this variance been considered, and is it possible we'll see more Sacrilege balancing in future passes?
Jennifer Maxwell Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 332	Posted - 2015.10.16 22:49:14 - [111] - Quote Navy Osprey deserved attention for a long time. Garmur deserves a different kind of attention. Worm didn't deserve the attention it got.
NarielSanos Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.10.16 22:54:58 - [112] - Quote This is a huge and unfortunate blow to the Gila's ability. It was a great ship that was easy for beginners to skill into without a long train. I don't see being able to do C3s with it now. I'd have rather had the role bonus nerfed or see something done about the high slots, but a flat loss of the low without any corresponding buff at all is bulls**t. At least give us some tank back to make up for the low.
Aquinas II PostgreSQL 5	Posted - 2015.10.16 23:06:21 - [113] - Quote IGÇÖm also not a fan of the Punisher changes. My preference would be to have the Punisher fill the role of the T1 version of the Vengance. The Vengance is a neat ship, and having a stepping-stone into the T2 AF seems like a reasonable path. Also, as others have said, there are plenty of T1 missile ships in the Amarr lineup, itGÇÖs almost MORE confusing to not have any T1 frigates representing that path in the Amarr lineup.
Suitonia True Solo 659	Posted - 2015.10.16 23:23:43 - [114] - Quote Shp3 wrote: so about that orthrus... current dps with 2 BCU: 525 after that: 393,75 cant even fight a caracal in it anymore.. gg ccp cap was way too bad and the ship was way too squishy already to be OP... and the Worm & Gila nerf im not even starting about RIP the last 2 useful Pirate faction cruisers You might have been flying the Orthrus for far too long, it seems to have affected your calculations. the Orthrus is going from a 20% per level bonus (5 * 2 = 10) Effective Launchers to 15% per level bonus (5 * 1.75 = 8.75) Effective Launchers This is a 12.5% DPS loss for the Orthrus from Missile Launchers. Using your 525 figure (Which is way lower than what most Orthrus' can achieve) You would be going from 525 to 459 DPS. If drones are included in that figure then the nerf is even less than that. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 952	Posted - 2015.10.16 23:26:11 - [115] - Quote DAMNIT!! Right when I go to join in on the GIla bandwagon... Glad I didn't waist SP on it... Wait... BTW, what ever happened to the Gila and Rattlesnake having Uber passive shield tank capability?
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 1489	Posted - 2015.10.16 23:42:40 - [116] - Quote Worm nerf sucks. The Tears Must Flow
Elisk Skyforge Night Raven Task Force 80	Posted - 2015.10.16 23:52:33 - [117] - Quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=494dUevcqJM CCP please nerf these people they are OP.
Ben Kilmore Sky Fighters 2	Posted - 2015.10.17 00:14:47 - [118] - Quote I am a fan of most of the planned updates, but expect Orthrus to get nerfed harder later unless more people end up using the missile disrupt module than I expect. Tracking disruptors don't get utilized too commonly currently, and that module affects 3 weapon systems already. I like the T3 destroyers a lot, but that does put assault frigs in a weird spot in the current meta... not really sure how to fix it thou unless you somehow made assault frigs less able to be affected by rapid lights or something. I'd like to see Phantasm get a bit of help too. So far so good on most of the planned updates thou. Needed! :)
Prometheus Exenthal mnemonic. 791	Posted - 2015.10.17 00:38:41 - [119] - Quote MINMATAR The Breacher is a-okay, so a minor change is fine. What isn't fine are the changes to the Slasher & Rifter. Outside of niche tackle, crappy brawl attempts, & td nonsense, the Rifter & Slasher are pretty **** combat frigates. Trying to push people into using artillery on ships that have anemic damage output is hilariously backwards. IMO an bonus low slot would be far better spent on the Rifter than that horribly misguided Punisher attempt. Trying to have a kiting Rifter with 280s is a joke as well when the thing doesn't even have a tracking bonus. Enjoy that 0.08 tracking :lol: Similarly, the Firetail changes are next to meaningless. There has never been a point where I thought a Firetail needed more tracking. Damage or CPU is what it needs, not some half-ass attempt to get people to LR kite with a ship that doesn't have any range bonus whatsoever. Successful frig kiting setups relied on ewar abuse (TDs), not that extra little bit of tracking. GALLENTE Tristan goes a little slower, woo. Gallente continue to have the best frig lineup in the game. None of it is really broken, so good to leave it alone. AMARR This is a joke, right? LETS BOOST THE TORMENTOR SOME MORE, FORGET THAT PUNISHER HERITAGE. You devs really are taking the **. Quote:** We currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. Seriously, what? Isn't the whole point of skill progression to prepare players to fly the Tech2 counterparts? Only the drone ships have unbonused launchers. Laser ganking needs to be represented, sure, but it's like you haven't seen the bloody Tormentor doing exactly that. And naturally the Tormentor needed more drones just because Speaking of the Punisher - WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? Decreasing the cap usage, sure. Adding a low slot, fine I can get on board. But REMOVING THE UTILITY HIGH THAT KEEPS THE SHIP REMOTELY COMPETITIVE? What is that crap? I don't care who you are, but a laser ship with two mids & no tracking bonus whatsoever is awful. The ship has got awful damage output, awful fitting options, *awful* damage application, awful speed, and now you are essentially forcing it to a buffer-tank setup unless the pilot ignores any pvp mids whatsoever and fits an injector instead. The Tormentor is so much better because it's versatile. 3 mids mean a lot, and 2 drones mean even more. Hell, even the Executioner can be seen as a better ship because it's got 3 mids and it's not a bloody brick. To top it off the Amarr joke, you add a bigger drone bay to the Sacrilege. Okay, but WHY? Amarr has their drone ships, and they are both effective EWAR ships with bonuses to drones. Fix the Zealot, smart guys. It's a free kill for any self-respecting frigate pilot because the damn things can't HIT anything. Who cares how much HP your Zealot has when the NOmen outperforms it in every other facet. Bump the Zealots damage bonus, drop a low, add a mid and give at least 15m3 of drone bandwidth to the thing. CALDARI The fixed kinetic bonus is archaic, so the rocket damage changes for the Hookbill are welcome. The NOsprey changes aren't welcome without RLML changes. This effectively makes the NOsprey another cheap Orthrus, outperforming both the NCaralol & ScyFI in that field. Before implants/rigs/drones, but overloaded, 3x BCU setups will reach just shy of 500dps w/ Rage. Because everyone really wanted another high damage, 2.5k/s missile spewer GURISTAS Both changes are good, it's about time. CANCER Easily one of the most overpowered ship in the game, and you drop its damage bonus by 25% overall. Orthrus needs a bigger nerf, sorry. Reduce the grid slightly, nuke the agility, and then lets see how things work out Is it's damage too much? For sure. But lowering the output doesn't change the fact that it's idiot proof and outperforms everything beyond a linked gank-boat. https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage
BirdStrike State War Academy Caldari State 69	Posted - 2015.10.17 01:09:35 - [120] - Quote Meh. Time to break out the Gila and enjoy her while she lasts.
sytaqe violacea Circus of midnight 36	Posted - 2015.10.17 01:16:11 - [121] - Quote First, I am excited too. Especially punisher DPS buff is a thing. I want to argue some about Breacher. This ship is 1 of 2 active tank bonused T1 frigate. However, actually people fly it with MASB. MASB is buffer tank in fact. I suggest buff to Breacher's capacitor . It makes true active tank fit; Flux coil + web + SB fit more viable.
M1k3y Koontz Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries 802	Posted - 2015.10.17 01:19:43 - [122] - Quote I may be beating a dead horse, but... Muninn? Can we have something done with it? How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2827	Posted - 2015.10.17 01:43:10 - [123] - Quote Um, Fozzie, ever considered dropping Artillery PG a tad versus just adding PG to hulls that don't need it? I mean...you compare the PG needs of HML, RLML's and HAMs and they are mostly on par. But AC's and Arty are like two completely different weapon systems. Orthrus DPS nerf of 12.5% is OK. it just means that your kitefag cancer takes a little longer to kill you at 40km, which allows you to table flip a bit less and sulk less often. GG. The problem is the oversupply of PG and fitting capacity here. That remains unresolved. The Navy osprey will still remain uncompetitive. The extra drones are handy, but it's still a completely subpar missile boat with nothing going for it. Just a little bit less of nothing, now. Gila and Worm nerfs are long overdue. They'll still be popular, but now just a bit slower at killdozering the bejeezus out of everything. kinda the same orthrus argument, viz, the tanks are just a wee bit OP. The CPU nerf on the Worm might be interesting, as it has some really tight fitting already. Will reserve judgment on that. Barghest buff is...welcome, i guess. It still needs a little something. Also a smaller model. it's bigger than most capitals. Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 141	Posted - 2015.10.17 02:04:10 - [124] - Quote The route you went with the punisher... eh take it or leave it. I dont think it will work the way you want it to. The Gila nerf is expected. The loss of the lowslot actually works to bring this ship in line with its cruiser brethren. It never really made sense that you had a battleship grade tank on a pirate cruiser hull. All other changes good. I like the "new" kinetic lock bonus vs a straight kin bonus. You should really consider rolling this into all Kinlocked ships asap.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 211	Posted - 2015.10.17 02:08:24 - [125] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place. Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy! Medium drones are very mediocre compared to lights, sentries and heavies, it actually does need to have a bigger bonus if it's going to be forced to use these. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 280	Posted - 2015.10.17 02:28:40 - [126] - Quote Punisher should not be turned into a drone boat. It's role is cleary defined, it just hasn't been executed quite as well as it could be, although the Punisher as it is right now is not as bad as people think. The Crucifier is the Amarr drone boat frigate, and it's a pretty good frigate except for the fact that it should be able to field a full flight of drones but is only currently capable of fielding 3. It's a great ewar support ship, but if it got a full drone bay it would actually be usable in solo and small gang frigate pvp, but right now it just doesn't have a reliable way to kill things. It wouldn't be OP because it still has no tank and still wouldn't have much damage, but it would actually be a really good ship that was good in fleets and actually did pose a minor threat because of it's drones. 3 drones isnt enough to do much tho.
Irya Boone Never Surrender. 468	Posted - 2015.10.17 03:29:13 - [127] - Quote why do you touch the tristaninstead of serioulsy nerfing the orthrus and the worm , you should reduce it's speed. CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !! you shall all bow and pray BoB
Mad Abbat Talon Swarm NEOS FLEET 4	Posted - 2015.10.17 03:37:17 - [128] - Quote I've used punisher pretty heavily back in the day, and I think that 2 mid setup requires it to be a missle boat, but if you want to make it lazor boat, please leave it with 5% or even 7,5% damage bonus, as it will have a role as cheap t1 "in your face" damage dealer in small gangs. I'm not very happy to see punusher as newbie pve boat with no role in FW, as it has no damage or utility to compete with tormentor in a dps support role. tl:dr thats how i see gang lazor Punisher: 4 turrets, 7,5% damage bonus, 4% brick tank bonus. Hights: 4 SFPL, conflag ammo Meds: 5mn restrained mwd, j5b scram, Lows: heatsink x 2, dc2, EANM2, 400m compact plates, Rigs: Collision accel 2, Trimark , Trimark
gascanu Bearing Srl. 259	Posted - 2015.10.17 03:37:20 - [129] - Quote Quote: Worm and Gila: Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit... Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU wow, if that's what you guys call " tone them down a bit" ... really, what about "small steps" approach? yea they where strong ships, but not really "prenerf ishtar lvl" and even the ishtar didn't got this lvl of nerfbat; -20CPU AND -1 low slot after the recent DDA nerf, aren't you guys going a bit overboard here?
Kovares Arnolds No POD Left Behind Nerfed Alliance Go Away 2	Posted - 2015.10.17 03:44:49 - [130] - Quote I saw no mention about Federation Navy Comet. How do you feel about that ship? I personally see it as too strong and too flexible. Face melting damage with blasters, can kite with rails, is quite fast (2nd highest base speed of faction frigs) and has 3 drones on top of that. You can find a high number of FN Comets in FW space as a result. I'd say get rid of it's drones, nerf speed or something else.
May Arethusa The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 80	Posted - 2015.10.17 04:08:55 - [131] - Quote Nice to see you waited to find out what impact Missile Disruptors would have before tinkering with several missile boats. I expect that once you've muddied the waters even more you'll finally get around to re-balancing missiles properly.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 213	Posted - 2015.10.17 04:22:15 - [132] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level hell yeah so many things I could do with this! will be a good armor doctrine with logi - it almost works even now. fit an uber tank and bait best t1 frig for pve for solo the range control is a problem for brawling... but could we fit mwd + disruptor and use it for kiting now? I think with the cap efficient mwd and the cap use bonus it might just work. also extra low slot for speed, and always the option to switch to conflag if you get tackled. This is good round of changes but this new punisher will be amazing, just went from being worst in class to one of the best! Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 702	Posted - 2015.10.17 04:24:49 - [133] - Quote Well the Punisher may become ridiculous. But it's been bad for so long, well deserved. Orthrus damage was fine tbh...that ship really only becomes stupid with links. Same with the garmur and the gila.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 213	Posted - 2015.10.17 04:40:56 - [134] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: Nice to see you waited to find out what impact Missile Disruptors would have before tinkering with several missile boats. I expect that once you've muddied the waters even more you'll finally get around to re-balancing missiles properly. Be happy, Calmil couldn't wait for the next full missile balance pass, did you never wonder why your lp was trading for less than galmil even though you're a tier behind them and have been for a long time? Yeah missiles need looking at, but the problems with the Osprey and the hookbill were deeper than just the missiles themselves, if missiles got a buff across the board people would still chose the far cheaper t1 caracal over the Nosprey or the Navy Caracal, and people would still chose kestrel or condor over the hookbill because the price difference wasn't worth it. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Samaz Ralan Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.17 05:06:33 - [135] - Quote rocket punisher because not every amarrian wants to have matari grandmothers strapped to their hull throwing rocks at the enemy (ac punisher :P) yeah, rockets.
Warde Guildencrantz Tundragon Project.Mayhem. 1212	Posted - 2015.10.17 05:32:20 - [136] - Quote Ah yes, a buff to the navy osprey, one of my fave inexpensive combat cruisers. TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 96	Posted - 2015.10.17 05:41:08 - [137] - Quote Punisher changes look excellent. I think CCP is correct in not giving it a third mid slot. There's no point in so many ships being in the game if they are all made to be the same. The 5th low makes it unique amongst T1 frigs, it doesn't have to be another solo frigate.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12743	Posted - 2015.10.17 06:22:39 - [138] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Garrett Osinov wrote: Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? Gila was an exellent PvE ship ! Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!! The Gila still is an excellent PVP ship. It just does 35 less DPS if you fit three Drone Damage Amplifier II's instead of four. This is hardly ruining the game for anyone. Quite right, the Gila will still be an excellent PVP ship with either a little less damage, or a little less tank. However PVP is not the only use for this ship, It is widely used with a passive tank in cap hostile environments. Removing a low effectively makes this ship sub-effective in this role. Particuarly in hostile PVE environments with a strong chance of involuntary PVP. If however a missile launcher was removed, it would affect PVP and PVE equally without destroying the PVE role. Would that not be better? +1, wormhole Gilas are fun.
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate 558	Posted - 2015.10.17 06:27:11 - [139] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: Minus one low slot on the Gila is pretty savage when the ship is passive tanked for PVE. I can certainly see the point For PVP, there it is more balanced as a change. Could you please have a look to see if there is an alternative that doesn't make it a poor choice for PVE, particuarly solo C3 running, as that is not going to be practical any more, either insufficient tank, or unable to break the sleepers in a reasonable time, remember we are never more than moments away from 6 cloaky proteus. We already need to refit with a depot, to do them well, with a low slot less, there is nothing to work with. Would losing a missile launcher, and giving the new caldari missile damage types, be a better alternative? Why should the Gila be the only non-T3 cruiser that can solo C3 sites? If it can passive tank them now, it is a clear sign of being absurdly overpowered and probably needs another nerf. I'd decrease it's top speed and remove missile bonuses.
Kaldfir Gongukaslan Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 5	Posted - 2015.10.17 06:29:14 - [140] - Quote The proposed changes to the punisher are going to make an extremely boring ship. Nobody likes gun cap bonuses, and there isn't really any more room for innovation with that extra low. I also don't like the idea of a drone bay, since there's already enough drone-focused frigates. What we don't have is a frig with neut bonuses, and I feel like that might be the way to go here. For that to work there need to be 2 utility highs, and the grid to use them, but I think the ship's drawbacks (no drones, no third mid) warrant having some other powerful advantage.
Mad Abbat Talon Swarm NEOS FLEET 4	Posted - 2015.10.17 06:33:10 - [141] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Punisher changes look excellent. I think CCP is correct in not giving it a third mid slot. There's no point in so many ships being in the game if they are all made to be the same. The 5th low makes it unique amongst T1 frigs, it doesn't have to be another solo frigate. Yes 5th slot is great, but you can't fit inything in it, because it have on extra CPU. One resist plating won't make it shine. Damage output is still pathetic, it needs t2 lasers to work, so can't be "derpfit to same extend as atron or tristan. It needs to have that damage bonus on top of that 4th turret and needs that extra cpu to fit heatsink/energised membrane/rcu2 to make beam plated mwd fit
Gustav Mannfred PubSwarm Federation Goonswarm Federation 135	Posted - 2015.10.17 07:09:57 - [142] - Quote Drone boats are supposed to have one slot less than non drone boats. You forgot to do this change to the stratios as well. I suggest: Remove one hi slot from the stratios and add 25mbit bandwith for drones. The nestor could also need some help. That ship is slower than most capital ships and cant really make use of propulsion mods due to its low mass. I suggest double mass, half intertia and add about 50m/s to its speed i'm REALY miss the old stuff.-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
Inslander Wessette Killers of Paranoid Souls Imminent Threat 24	Posted - 2015.10.17 07:51:42 - [143] - Quote + 1 across the board for all the frigatz fozzie . Good changes ... love the fact the u made punisher into a dps support frigate. Interesting changes to gila/worm. but i think -20 on the worm is a bit harsh considering its a frigate . Same nerf as a cruiser ?? Orthrus: i had many concerns to this . but instead of reducing the overall damage . I would say just remove the bonuses towards RLML . Reasons are: with bonuses only towards HML and HAMs, they will be able to hit larger targets harder and smaller targets bad. It should allow ppl to get enough counter play with interceptors and t3'ds . On a last note . No changes to garmur doing 8km/s with links ????
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate 558	Posted - 2015.10.17 08:30:45 - [144] - Quote Next batch of ships needing these sort of small tweaks to make them useful: Ishkur Eris Hecate Ships that still need nerfing: Garmur Cerberus As general balance tweak: Remove all rapid missile launchers.
Dato Koppla Kiwis In Space No Points Necessary 896	Posted - 2015.10.17 08:49:36 - [145] - Quote Everything looks good but..... THE PUNISHER BUFFS ARE ABSOLUTE TRASH Your current iteration of the Punisher makes me think someone said 'How can I make the current weaknesses of the Punisher worse?' Let's not give it the third mid it so badly needs, retain it's crap tracking with lasers so you can't hit anything, remove it's only form of range control (neut in the utility high), give it an extra low it can't fill because of the horrendous CPU and give it an extra turret and high so the fittings become even worse. What in the actual hell was trying to be achieved? Whoever came up with these changes are so far removed from the lowsec small gang/solo frigate meta. They are nothing short of absolutely clueless.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 213	Posted - 2015.10.17 09:23:52 - [146] - Quote Just looking at the new Navy ECM ships and the Hookbill is outclassed by the vigil now even after this change... please give it more cpu and a tiny bit more pg so it can be tanked instead of being forced into to dual web fits. I mean the fleet vigil gets 190 CPU and has 4mids, the hookbill only has 165 with 5 mids Add to that the vigil is faster, more agile, massive web range bonus, and application bonus it's just hard to imagine why anyone would use a hookbill at all. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Sitting Bull Lakota Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 13	Posted - 2015.10.17 09:30:28 - [147] - Quote So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh?
Alek Row Silent Step 53	Posted - 2015.10.17 10:42:55 - [148] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Rifter and Slasher: Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs. Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG Even with +3 pg, it is not possible to have a 280mm rifter with ABII, web, disr, saar without 2 pg rigs, could you please make it +4 pg? No other race needs pg rigs to have a fit like that, rifter still needs 2, no changes here. Good luck with a good arty fit in that slasher. Punisher buff doesn't make sense, +1 slot? really? Despite I hate drones, you could make it a pure drone or rocket boat, no need to mess up the number of slots. Overall, very very very lazy, you may have identified the problems but the solutions look like random numbers and random enhancements. You need to fix ac/arty pg requirements.
BroodAlpha Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 6	Posted - 2015.10.17 10:44:01 - [149] - Quote While we're chatting about ship balance, Light Missiles as a platform overall apply damage far too well to small ships. Have you ever tried to tackle an Orthrus or a Cerberus? Even when Orthrus pilots mess up (which is almost impossible), with a cheeky Kitsune in the comp, you just jam them off. Currently the ONLY way to kill an Orthrus is through gross pilot error or by warping 30 dudes on top of them after probing. Keep the scram and point bonuses but bring Light Missiles on cruisers more in line with the way that the Omen Navy Issue works. I like the Omen Navy overall because it's incredibly fast, strong if used correctly. It's not EASY to tackle but it is POSSIBLE. Once you have it tackled, it still has options to try to neut you off, while applying damage with a flight of light drones or remove your scram with ECM drones. Currently the Orthrus just scrams you at 35km and you can never tackle it with smaller ships that are designed for tackling things. I've tackled a few ONIs in my time, but I've never successfully tackled an Orthrus without losing my ship. Pilot error should be punished harder in those ships. Orthrus with Keres, Hyena and Kitsune in the comp is pretty much unkillable.
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 45	Posted - 2015.10.17 11:01:13 - [150] - Quote Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh? Right. Let em just remove cap bonus to lasers and give something else instead. I'd make 3 Turrets/3 Launchers with 4 hi-slots owerall, would be an interesting ship.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 213	Posted - 2015.10.17 11:04:56 - [151] - Quote BroodAlpha wrote: While we're chatting about ship balance, Light Missiles as a platform overall apply damage far too well to small ships. Have you ever tried to tackle an Orthrus or a Cerberus? Even when Orthrus pilots mess up (which is almost impossible), with a cheeky Kitsune in the comp, you just jam them off. Currently the ONLY way to kill an Orthrus is through gross pilot error or by warping 30 dudes on top of them after probing. Keep the scram and point bonuses but bring Light Missiles on cruisers more in line with the way that the Omen Navy Issue works. I like the Omen Navy overall because it's incredibly fast, strong if used correctly. It's not EASY to tackle but it is POSSIBLE. Once you have it tackled, it still has options to try to neut you off, while applying damage with a flight of light drones or remove your scram with ECM drones. Currently the Orthrus just scrams you at 35km and you can never tackle it with smaller ships that are designed for tackling things. I've tackled a few ONIs in my time, but I've never successfully tackled an Orthrus without losing my ship. Pilot error should be punished harder in those ships. Orthrus with Keres, Hyena and Kitsune in the comp is pretty much unkillable. Jams also need deleting from the game. There's no fun in being able to target nothing for 20 seconds at a time... Nerf all light missile ships because you can't tackle an Orthurus in a frig? No Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 213	Posted - 2015.10.17 11:07:21 - [152] - Quote Lidia Caderu wrote: Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh? Right. Let em just remove cap bonus to lasers and give something else instead. I'd make 3 Turrets/3 Launchers with 4 hi-slots owerall, would be an interesting ship. really it should be good with beams for solo, and it will be awesome in gangs. i think it looks solid now, the cap use bonus is a bit rubbish but it will keep kite fits cap stable Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Cardano Firesnake SnaiLs aNd FroGs Drama Sutra 194	Posted - 2015.10.17 11:30:00 - [153] - Quote Ok if for this nerf; but The Gila need a bit more agility. Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Mad Abbat Talon Swarm NEOS FLEET 4	Posted - 2015.10.17 11:52:16 - [154] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Lidia Caderu wrote: Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh? Right. Let em just remove cap bonus to lasers and give something else instead. I'd make 3 Turrets/3 Launchers with 4 hi-slots owerall, would be an interesting ship. really it should be good with beams for solo, and it will be awesome in gangs. i think it looks solid now, the cap use bonus is a bit rubbish but it will keep kite fits cap stable You are cleless. Punisher is brick that is almost immobile by frigate standards. It cannot kite, cannot hit anything with aurora, because of tracking, and have no optimal bunus to apply on range where aurora can hit. I already have no CPU to fit its 4 lows, and you throwing in 5th, that will go to nano/anp2 that takes no cpu to fit. If punisher get cap bonuses, it will be decent GLASTER / autogun fleet platform, where it will be rulled out, because true amarr don't have place for basters in treir training quenue.
Norn Thilnir Naragnir 0	Posted - 2015.10.17 12:41:43 - [155] - Quote From a newer player perspective trying to min-max my skillpoints (a joy soon I will no longer experience, since EVE will be "pay to SP"), I have the following comments: EVE ship balancing is a huge mess for three reasons. Only the first point really applies to this thread, the other two are ranting. (1) The races do not focus properly on 'their' weapon systems. This ties in to the NPE: without providing decent upgrade paths for new pilots it takes them much longer to be competitive. It also severely reduces the advantage of proper specialization. The biggest example of this at the moment is of how much minmatar dps is tied up in drones, but all races struggle with this. Case in point: the punisher changes. You want a more powerful punisher? Well, scrap a high slot, move it to a low and give a massive laser damage bonus. Keep a utility high. Done. (2) Link bonuses are too big. The problem is that EVE for a while now has been balanced with a quick fix left and right "around" over-bonused links. (3) There is a chronic lack of dev resources with regards to balancing. All power-multipliers need to be properly examined and CCP needs to make up their minds about what elements interesting/fun pvp should contain. To create a better and somewhat less risk-averse pvp dynamic is not going to be achieved without a major effort both in terms of PR (getting your view across) and realization.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 213	Posted - 2015.10.17 12:47:38 - [156] - Quote Mad Abbat wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Lidia Caderu wrote: Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh? Right. Let em just remove cap bonus to lasers and give something else instead. I'd make 3 Turrets/3 Launchers with 4 hi-slots owerall, would be an interesting ship. really it should be good with beams for solo, and it will be awesome in gangs. i think it looks solid now, the cap use bonus is a bit rubbish but it will keep kite fits cap stable You are cleless. Punisher is brick that is almost immobile by frigate standards. It cannot kite, cannot hit anything with aurora, because of tracking, and have no optimal bunus to apply on range where aurora can hit. I already have no CPU to fit its 4 lows, and you throwing in 5th, that will go to nano/anp2 that takes no cpu to fit. If punisher get cap bonuses, it will be decent GLASTER / autogun fleet platform, where it will be rulled out, because true amarr don't have place for basters in treir training quenue. But you can easily fit double nano's in the lows now so it can be fast and agile depending on how it's fit. okay how about something like this instead [[Punisher, Punisher fit] 200mm Crystalline Carbonide Restrained Plates 200mm Crystalline Carbonide Restrained Plates Heat Sink II Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II 5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Fleeting Warp Disruptor I Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Small Energy Locus Coordinator II DPS Scorch: 123dps cold 132dps with heat. 15.5 +3.13km range Imp Navy Multi: 154dps cold 176dps with heat 5.55 +3.13km range Conflag: 171dps cold 196dps with heat 5.55 +3.13km range Tank 7.91k EHP 72.5/64.3/58.8/56 resists Mobility 2691 m/s cold 3814 with heat 5.07seconds align time Tactics I know it's extremely slow for a "kite" fit but it's got enough dps and tank that it could live with most brawlers in scram range anyway. The idea would be to kite ab fit brawlers as much as possible but it's got enough tank and dps that even if you get caught in o/h web range you should still beat nearly any t1 frig. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Lin Fatale Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2015.10.17 12:49:57 - [157] - Quote yaya orthrus/gila nerf, just nerf evrything which is naturaly an okish allrounder for roaming and does not need a special fit to survive the gazillions of frigs and t3/destroyers to introduce more frigs into frig online, definiatly also the game needs more logis really unclear for me, how you can invest the last years on rebalance the frigs over and over again while evrything above cruiser is just dead
Mad Abbat Talon Swarm NEOS FLEET 4	Posted - 2015.10.17 13:14:00 - [158] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: [quote=Mad Abbat][quote=Fourteen Maken][quote=Lidia Caderu][quote=Sitting Bull Lakota]So the Tactics I know it's extremely slow for a "kite" fit but it's got enough dps and tank that it could live with most brawlers in scram range anyway. The idea would be to kite ab fit brawlers as much as possible but it's got enough tank and dps that even if you get caught in o/h web range you should still beat nearly any t1 frig. you will get caught instatly, as 2.6k on mwd is less than t2 ab fit succubus, lol. it will apply more or less 0 dps in close range as SFPL can't track in close range, with beam it even worse. current iteration of changes is just.... bad.
May Arethusa The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 81	Posted - 2015.10.17 13:36:53 - [159] - Quote Quote: While we're chatting about ship balance, Light Missiles as a platform overall apply damage far too well to small ships. Have you ever tried to tackle an Orthrus or a Cerberus? I hear this all the time, and it simply isn't true. Yet people cry about it loud enough and we end up where we are now. Missile damage is easily mitigated through speed and sig, and there is nothing the missile user can do about it. Once you reach certain speeds, you outrun missiles entirely. Yesterday, I engaged two RLML Cerbs running FW missions in a Malediction. Of their potential 1238 Volley damage, each managed to apply only 180. Tackling one is incredibly easy, it wasn't until the second arrived to save his friend from a slow and humiliating death that things got dicey. Even then, I stuck around long enough for the first to reload which bought me an extra 35 seconds on field. With a Missile Disruptor, I doubt they'd have hit me at all. This patch brings about double nerfs to some missile boats (and gives other hulls a huge boost via automatic qualification for Missile Disruptor bonuses), and while some may have needed refining (which is questionable to begin with) this isn't the way to do it. Since when did one man and his blog dictate game balance? Developers are often accused of listening too much to the vocal minority, this is taking it to the nth degree.
Mixu Paatelainen Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 219	Posted - 2015.10.17 13:47:08 - [160] - Quote Will a 4 small Smartbomb punisher be able to kill a capsule?
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 213	Posted - 2015.10.17 13:49:36 - [161] - Quote Mixu Paatelainen wrote: Will a 4 small Smartbomb punisher be able to kill a capsule? small smartbombs have no range Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Count Szadek The Looney Bin 12	Posted - 2015.10.17 14:26:53 - [162] - Quote Breacher: Good Change Tormentor: Good Gange Rifter: Would really like to see actually more agility on this to accompany the pg boost. Slasher: Good Change Tristan: Good Change if the Navy Maulus was not coming. I feel that there should be some disparity between the two hulls other then maulus having more bonuses to tackle etc. Punisher: Could use some more agility as well. all the other 2 mid slot amarr frigs are hyper agile, and thats why they are good. i would say inreasing its agility and give it a tracking bonus instead of laser cap usage would be awesome. that would give it a real chance of doing things while keeping the 2 slot mid Firetail: Love It Hookbill: Like the change Navy Osprey: would actually like to see this become a navy eagle/moa medium, i feel it would get more use if this happened Sacrilege: Good Change Worm: Good Change Gila: Good Change Orthrus: Acceptable Barghest: I Like it I really feel that 1 more ship needs a rebalance and could def be added to this list: The Stabber - Please redo it
Serenit Adoulin Stille Gewalt Dead Terrorists 38	Posted - 2015.10.17 14:35:35 - [163] - Quote Can we please get some love for the vagabond now as well? 4 midslots for a shiledtanking cruiser is pretty silly. Especially if it is t2 and costs 170m. If you are to afraid of a t2 dual xl asb cyclone make it with low cpu/powergrid so you can fit a normal booster at least. thanks.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 213	Posted - 2015.10.17 14:38:13 - [164] - Quote Mad Abbat wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Tactics I know it's extremely slow for a "kite" fit but it's got enough dps and tank that it could live with most brawlers in scram range anyway. The idea would be to kite ab fit brawlers as much as possible but it's got enough tank and dps that even if you get caught in o/h web range you should still beat nearly any t1 frig. you will get caught instatly, as 2.6k on mwd is less than t2 ab fit succubus, lol. it will apply more or less 0 dps in close range as SFPL can't track in close range, with beam it even worse. current iteration of changes is just.... bad. It is faster than a succubus, but the point is that's solid for a t1 frig anyway, and i'd take it 1v1 against any of the other t1 frigs. You can bring drop booster if you're worried about tracking issues but I think it should be fine as long as you make some kind of effort and don't immediately let yourself get caught. I had to calculate everything manually but when it's on EFT you'll see there are lots of interesting fits you can make out of it even for solo, i could probably drop the plates and fit double nano, drop the trimark for another t1 locus and but it will shine in gangs. It got a huge fitting buff an extra low slot and more dps than before. [Punisher, Punisher fit] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Fleeting Warp Disruptor I Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Small Energy Locus Coordinator II DPS Scorch: 146 cold / 169 heated 16.9 +3.13km Navy Radio: 76 cold / 88 heated 19.3 +3.13km Conflag: 205 cold / 236 heated 6.02 +3.13km Tank 2.95k EHP Mobillity 3473m/s cold 4947m/s heated 3.33 seconds align Tactics Kite [Punisher, Punisher fit] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Processor Overclocking Unit I DPS Void: 250dps cold 288dps with heat 1.69 +1.56km Caldari Antimatter: 224dps cold 258dps with heat 1.13 +3.13km Null: 179dps cold 206dps with heat 3.15 +4.38km Tank 9.23k EHP Mobility 887m/s 1129 with heat 5.3 seconds align time Tactics sit on warp in and melt stuff Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
ArmyOfMe Hull Breach. Outnumbered. 477	Posted - 2015.10.17 14:38:46 - [165] - Quote Serenit Adoulin wrote: Can we please get some love for the vagabond now as well? 4 midslots for a shiledtanking cruiser is pretty silly. Especially if it is t2 and costs 170m. If you are to afraid of a t2 dual xl asb cyclone make it with low cpu/powergrid so you can fit a normal booster at least. thanks. Not gonna say no to a extra mid to my favourit ship seeing as i use it as a close range tackler =D QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
Borroed Thyme Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.10.17 15:15:28 - [166] - Quote Garrett Osinov wrote: Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ? Gila was an exellent PvE ship ! Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!! How exactly do you consider the Skill Points you invested in the Gila wasted, so that you need a refund? Gallente Cruiser.... Ability to fly all of the T1 and faction cruisers in the Gallente line, and pre-req for T2s Caldari Cruiser.... Ditto, the above with the Caldari line of Cruisers. Missile skills.... Oh no... you wasted points on missiles which can be applied to many ships along the Caldari (Caracal, Cerberus, Drake, Osprey Navy, etc), Amarr (Prophecy, Sacrilege, Dragoon, Vengeance, etc), and Minmatar (Breacher, Scythe Fleet, Bellicose, Talwar, etc.) line of ships. Drone skills.... like Drones aren't important in the Gallente meta (Vexor, Myrmidon, Tristan, Ishtar, Dominix), or the 90% of other ships in the other racial lines that can field some drones.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 96	Posted - 2015.10.17 15:40:07 - [167] - Quote CCP Fozzie says.... "Tormentor: Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones. +10m3 Dronebay" If you don't know how good tormentor is already I have to as k do you actually play this game or live in a CCP vacuum ? "Rifter and Slasher: Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs. Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG" Unconvinced, feel arty frigs will still be crap, if anything I think slasher could use a little more base armor to help it last in it's usual mode of attack (speed tanking / TDing) "Tristan: Slight speed drop to the current top-dog of T1 frigates to help even out the field. The Tristan is a great and flexible ship, and doesn't really need to be quite as fast as it currently is. -10 m/s" This is a joke right... it's not nearly enough, tristan can fit way too much, unless you plan on giving hull rigs a meaningful pvp based drawback ... do you ? "Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level" Might as well just rename this "obvious bait brick tank" altho I guess it will be ok in a small gang ? "Worm and Gila: Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes. Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU" Funded by cancer research... good. "Orthrus: Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level" Funded by cancer research... good.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc 1973	Posted - 2015.10.17 15:50:40 - [168] - Quote Excellent changes! I wish the Tristan was nerfed more but eh, that's about it for the complaints. Bonus points for the damage profile of missile ships; Quote: 25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp That's the kind of kinetic lock I can get behind! Signature Tanking Best Tanking Retired Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - Ex-BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
Yli Canis Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective 0	Posted - 2015.10.17 16:38:05 - [169] - Quote The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by. I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask why?
Naomi Anthar 387	Posted - 2015.10.17 16:54:09 - [170] - Quote Yeah i agree with some voices there i don't want to see ac punishers or blaster. Screw it as was said keep ship as it was and just add another low....
Enslaved Mistress TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 112	Posted - 2015.10.17 18:18:09 - [171] - Quote Still no Caldari/Minmatar ships though huh. . . Wow. . .
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 141	Posted - 2015.10.17 19:30:49 - [172] - Quote Yli Canis wrote: The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by. I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask why? Unfortunately to balance anything in eve against WH space would greatly imbalance things for everywhere else. So yes... the pirate cruiser with a battleship grade tank is losing its battleship grade tank in favor of a cruiser grade tank. Sucks for WH. Is balanced for literally everywhere else. Whrs need to just take one for the team and HTFU.
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 141	Posted - 2015.10.17 19:34:36 - [173] - Quote Enslaved Mistress wrote: Still no Caldari/Minmatar ships though huh. . . Wow. . . There is a reason for this. On earth this matchup would be akin to high end engineers working with rednecks(nothing wrong with rednecks.. I R One). IF such a project was ever completed.. it would overpower everything in existence... trouble is the rednecks get the engineers drunk.. one of them says "hey yall watch this" and the nearby sun explodes erasing the project from existence. Seriously "Redneck nuclear physicist".. Nothing more epic exists... and nothing more terrifying exists in nature.
RealityDaytrip Order Collective Gentlemen's.Club 0	Posted - 2015.10.17 19:38:01 - [174] - Quote I agree with most of the proposed nerfs/buffs, though i do believe the othrus should have gotten the cyclone treatment and had its light missile bonus taken away. The sac buff has me wondering though, is it really the least flown t2 cruiser? I feel like the muninn is in such a worse place right now, and that could easily be solved with 1 more midslot. Currently there is no role that it isn't outclassed in.
Yli Canis Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective 0	Posted - 2015.10.17 20:22:19 - [175] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: [quote=Yli Canis] Unfortunately to balance anything in eve against WH space would greatly imbalance things for everywhere else. So yes... the pirate cruiser with a battleship grade tank is losing its battleship grade tank in favor of a cruiser grade tank. Sucks for WH. Is balanced for literally everywhere else. Whrs need to just take one for the team and HTFU. Just sayin', there are better, less hamhanded ways of going about bringing the gila in line with other (pirate) cruisers.
Perrdy Lady Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.17 20:58:05 - [176] - Quote Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU That's an insane nerf.
Grorious Reader Mongorian Horde 38	Posted - 2015.10.17 21:55:58 - [177] - Quote That gila nerf is terrible. I agree that the ship is OP and needs a nerf, but removing a low slot is the wrong way to do it. This isn't just a huge nerf to the ship's damage output. It's a huge nerf to the number of things the ship can be used for as well. For example, removing that low slot basically makes the Gila useless in higher class wormhole PvE, where it was once a very fun and viable ship. You could have just knocked the drone damage bonus down a bit, or reduced the base shield HP. I award you no points CCP, and may god have mercy on your soul.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1146	Posted - 2015.10.17 22:51:15 - [178] - Quote what's with all these gila abusers who have no idea what they're talking about
Perrdy Lady Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.17 23:07:16 - [179] - Quote Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore.
Dato Koppla Kiwis In Space No Points Necessary 897	Posted - 2015.10.17 23:25:28 - [180] - Quote The Gila supporters don't care about balance. Their reasons are 'it's fun and great'. They're just butthurt because they are using it for some sort of PvE and now have to switch ships or use a different fit for the Gila.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 99	Posted - 2015.10.18 00:04:12 - [181] - Quote Perrdy Lady wrote: Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore. Perhaps you should stop relying on ships that are hugely OP and try developing some actual piloting skill instead ? Edit : I just realised ur a butthurt PVEr, now all this whine makes sense
Alek Row Silent Step 54	Posted - 2015.10.18 00:06:26 - [182] - Quote Naomi Anthar wrote: Yeah i agree with some voices there i don't want to see ac punishers or blaster. Screw it as was said keep ship as it was and just add another low.... Hi Naomi, I don't think that is the way. Even if my alt never flew amarr, I will cry "foul" in this one, one extra slot just because the ship only have 2mids? Give me that to wolf and claw then - inties with only 2 mids is so sad. Punisher should be exec, and exec should be the "wanna be slicer", change both, give 3 mids to tormentor and 2 to exec with bonus to their roles (exec already have some, just need a range one). Too much work? Make punisher a drone or rocket boat. One extra slot? wtf? OBS: I'm drunk, so this should be very accurate :)
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 214	Posted - 2015.10.18 01:22:19 - [183] - Quote Alek Row wrote: Naomi Anthar wrote: Yeah i agree with some voices there i don't want to see ac punishers or blaster. Screw it as was said keep ship as it was and just add another low.... Hi Naomi, I don't think that is the way. Even if my alt never flew amarr, I will cry "foul" in this one, one extra slot just because the ship only have 2mids? Give me that to wolf and claw then - inties with only 2 mids is so sad. Punisher should be exec, and exec should be the "wanna be slicer", change both, give 3 mids to tormentor and 2 to exec with bonus to their roles (exec already have some, just need a range one). Too much work? Make punisher a drone or rocket boat. One extra slot? wtf? OBS: I'm drunk, so this should be very accurate :) It also got a big fitting buff, so if i did my maths right with max skills you have 202 CPU and 84 PG A frig with 5 lows, lots of fitting resources and a bonus to armor resists will be awesome with logi in a gang. I like the new punisher even for solo I think it can work very well in a few different roles, and in solo that's an important thing to keep people guessing, you don't want to be flying a predictable fit everyone knows or you'll only get fights you can't win. That's part of what makes the Tristan so good, people don't really know what to expect. might be OP if it got buffed much more imo, but I guess swapping the cap use bonus for range/tracking or a bonus to the capacitor itself would be nice. Definitely not in favour of another missile or drone based frigate though. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Helene Fidard CTRL-Q 26	Posted - 2015.10.18 01:31:18 - [184] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Orthrus: Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level yeah, it was the damage that was the problem fozziepls
Evoque School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 8	Posted - 2015.10.18 02:44:22 - [185] - Quote Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU http://i.imgur.com/IathBfB.gif
Kasumi Gotto Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 0	Posted - 2015.10.18 03:58:11 - [186] - Quote Reasonable changes. I only wish the Breacher was getting a bit bigger drone bay by 5m3 or 10m3
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 379	Posted - 2015.10.18 04:02:59 - [187] - Quote Tristan nerf is way to small, breacher and torm buff are totally unneeded. Small projectile weapons need a rebalance already, the entire weapon system is garbage and the svipul/thrasher only salvage it due to the absurd amount of effective turrets they have. No pg and cpu buff is going to save the slasher/rifter. [Rifter, eedd] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 1MN Afterburner II X5 Prototype Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I [empty rig slot] see this fit, that still wouldnt fit, not that its good anyways, but due to the garbage layout of the ship you cant really help it anyways. This fit is garbage, if you compare it to [Executioner, AB Beam (scram kite)] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Damage Control II Heat Sink II 1MN Afterburner II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S [empty high slot] Small Energy Collision Accelerator I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Ancillary Current Router I they do about the same dps, exe tracks way better, has instant reload, is 200m/s faster, better agility, way better tank due to having a rep and its all around way better, not to mention that unlike the rifter this actually fits. Or [Tormentor, New Setup 1] Internal Force Field Array I Heat Sink II Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Overdrive Injector System II 1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Energy Collision Accelerator I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hobgoblin II x2 (fake fit, real version has a anp instead of the od, so dont copy it and use it), faster, way more dps, way more tank, drone utility, better tracking, more ehp, saar all around a incredebly powerfull ship. And it all fits (unlike that made up rifter). Or lets take the only non ac minnie t1 frigate, the breacher [Breacher, ab] Ballistic Control System II Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Pseudoelectron Containment Field I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50 Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I 1MN Afterburner II Rocket Launcher II, Nova Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Nova Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Nova Rage Rocket Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Hobgoblin II x2 Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket x300 Caldari Navy Nova Rocket x300 Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket x300 Mjolnir Rage Rocket x300 Nova Rage Rocket x300 Navy Cap Booster 50 x18 Nanite Repair Paste x24 That for once doesnt totally outdamage that make belive rifter, although it comes close, it however has rockets so no tracking issues, has WAY more tank and is all around along with the torm and tristan by far the best t1 frigate around. The rifter needs MORE, and it either needs the svipul treatment or the garbage that are small acs (and mediums too tbh) finally need to get fixed and balanced properly.
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1780	Posted - 2015.10.18 04:43:01 - [188] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: Yli Canis wrote: The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by. I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask why? Unfortunately to balance anything in eve against WH space would greatly imbalance things for everywhere else. So yes... the pirate cruiser with a battleship grade tank is losing its battleship grade tank in favor of a cruiser grade tank. Sucks for WH. Is balanced for literally everywhere else. Whrs need to just take one for the team and HTFU. One could do that, or one could reduce the damage another way without making it ineffective for the PVE he is describing. Possibly he is pointing out that there may be a way of reducing the damage another way than removing a low slot. Possibly by either removing a missile hardpoint/ High slot or If the team feels a low must go, compensate it by increasing the passive regen to replace a shield power relay, Which does not help PVP but helps keep PVE utility. There is PVE in other places than wormholes, HS , LS, Null basically absolutely everywhere, So are you saying ALL PVE players should Take one for the team because PVP players used it to excess? Hardly balanced that, is it? I use the Gila for PVP too, Great ship, Still good for PVP, we will cope. Absolutely buggered for it's primary PVE role now as a passive regen ship though. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Portmanteau oooh ponies 99	Posted - 2015.10.18 05:18:40 - [189] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Tristan nerf is way to small, breacher and torm buff are totally unneeded. Small projectile weapons need a rebalance already, the entire weapon system is garbage and the svipul/thrasher only salvage it due to the absurd amount of effective turrets they have. No pg and cpu buff is going to save the slasher/rifter. SNIP The rifter needs MORE, and it either needs the svipul treatment or the garbage that are small acs (and mediums too tbh) finally need to get fixed and balanced properly. agree rifter is in desperate need, ironically the bizarre punisher buff (conversion of utility to turret and additional low) would be ideal for the rifter with appropriate CPU and PG adjustments. Tristan needs nerfing way way more, it can fit all the things with ease and pesky hull rigs have no meaningful pvp drawback, tiny speed nerf is just pointless. Take a drone away, put an agility drawback on hull rigs or reduce the CPU or PG so it can't fit everything without breaking a sweat.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 99	Posted - 2015.10.18 05:21:14 - [190] - Quote Kasumi Gotto wrote: Reasonable changes. I only wish the Breacher was getting a bit bigger drone bay by 5m3 or 10m3 what ? it's already one of the best solo frigs in the game
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 96	Posted - 2015.10.18 07:13:01 - [191] - Quote Mad Abbat wrote: Yes 5th slot is great, but you can't fit inything in it, because it have on extra CPU. One resist plating won't make it shine. Damage output is still pathetic, it needs t2 lasers to work, so can't be "derpfit to same extend as atron or tristan. It needs to have that damage bonus on top of that 4th turret and needs that extra cpu to fit heatsink/energised membrane/rcu2 to make beam plated mwd fit It's fitting space is now more than sufficient to utilize all the slots. Damage output is completely fine for a fleet frigate. It doesn't need T2 lasers to work, doesn't even need lasers to work. Personally I think the 5 low idea was the absolute right way to go. Some very interesting fits are going to get made.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 100	Posted - 2015.10.18 07:36:25 - [192] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Mad Abbat wrote: Yes 5th slot is great, but you can't fit inything in it, because it have on extra CPU. One resist plating won't make it shine. Damage output is still pathetic, it needs t2 lasers to work, so can't be "derpfit to same extend as atron or tristan. It needs to have that damage bonus on top of that 4th turret and needs that extra cpu to fit heatsink/energised membrane/rcu2 to make beam plated mwd fit It's fitting space is now more than sufficient to utilize all the slots. Damage output is completely fine for a fleet frigate. It doesn't need T2 lasers to work, doesn't even need lasers to work. Personally I think the 5 low idea was the absolute right way to go. Some very interesting fits are going to get made. interesting but ultimately still complete turd ... altho there's a certain pilot who faction fits/links a punisher as bait and it might be vaguely interesting to see if the cost of his fit increases significantly shrug
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate 560	Posted - 2015.10.18 07:40:01 - [193] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: Nafensoriel wrote: Yli Canis wrote: The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by. I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask why? Unfortunately to balance anything in eve against WH space would greatly imbalance things for everywhere else. So yes... the pirate cruiser with a battleship grade tank is losing its battleship grade tank in favor of a cruiser grade tank. Sucks for WH. Is balanced for literally everywhere else. Whrs need to just take one for the team and HTFU. One could do that, or one could reduce the damage another way without making it ineffective for the PVE he is describing. He is pointing out that there may be a way of reducing the damage another way than removing a low slot. Possibly by either removing a missile hardpoint/ High slot or If the team feels a low must go, compensate it by increasing the passive regen to replace a shield power relay, Which does not help PVP but helps keep PVE utility. There is PVE in other places than wormholes, HS , LS, Null basically absolutely everywhere, So are you saying ALL PVE players should Take one for the team because PVP players used it to excess? Hardly balanced that, is it? I use the Gila for PVP too, Great ship, Still good for PVP, we will cope. Absolutely buggered for it's primary PVE role now as a passive regen ship though. CCP Fozzie has asked us to point out issues,and things are not finalised. Do people think he is superman, plus the wisdom and infallibility of the Pope? Of course he needs feedback from the people who use the ships, in the areas they use them. He is asking for our input. And like any reasonable person he will look and see where the unforeseen problems created by the proposal, can be mitigated, whilst still achieving the primary goal. We shouldn't get to worried at this point from a PVE point of view, regarding PVP, the effective damage reduction is in the right ballpark and honestly expected by most, CCP will just hopefully pick a different way of achieving the same goal, He has said he has an open mind. You stil havent explained what god given right you feel entitled to with your Gila? You are only clarifying to everyone how unbalanced the ship is, and that the removal of lowslot is absolutely justified.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 96	Posted - 2015.10.18 07:49:56 - [194] - Quote Portmanteau wrote: interesting but ultimately still complete turd... Interesting and very powerful. It's already very potent in its niche role, and it will become even more so.
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1780	Posted - 2015.10.18 08:16:54 - [195] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: epicurus ataraxia wrote: Nafensoriel wrote: Yli Canis wrote: The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by. I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask why? Unfortunately to balance anything in eve against WH space would greatly imbalance things for everywhere else. So yes... the pirate cruiser with a battleship grade tank is losing its battleship grade tank in favor of a cruiser grade tank. Sucks for WH. Is balanced for literally everywhere else. Whrs need to just take one for the team and HTFU. One could do that, or one could reduce the damage another way without making it ineffective for the PVE he is describing. He is pointing out that there may be a way of reducing the damage another way than removing a low slot. Possibly by either removing a missile hardpoint/ High slot or If the team feels a low must go, compensate it by increasing the passive regen to replace a shield power relay, Which does not help PVP but helps keep PVE utility. There is PVE in other places than wormholes, HS , LS, Null basically absolutely everywhere, So are you saying ALL PVE players should Take one for the team because PVP players used it to excess? Hardly balanced that, is it? I use the Gila for PVP too, Great ship, Still good for PVP, we will cope. Absolutely buggered for it's primary PVE role now as a passive regen ship though. CCP Fozzie has asked us to point out issues,and things are not finalised. Do people think he is superman, plus the wisdom and infallibility of the Pope? Of course he needs feedback from the people who use the ships, in the areas they use them. He is asking for our input. And like any reasonable person he will look and see where the unforeseen problems created by the proposal, can be mitigated, whilst still achieving the primary goal. We shouldn't get to worried at this point from a PVE point of view, regarding PVP, the effective damage reduction is in the right ballpark and honestly expected by most, CCP will just hopefully pick a different way of achieving the same goal, He has said he has an open mind. You stil havent explained what god given right you feel entitled to with your Gila? You are only clarifying to everyone how unbalanced the ship is, and that the removal of lowslot is absolutely justified. Your dog barks too often. I immediately demand you remove it's head. Or possibly a better alternative might be in order? You know, like a humane solution? There is more than one way to deal with a problem, but the removal of it's head is absolutely justified, quite right, you fixed the world. But with that attitude it is not a world any sane person would choose to live in. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Portmanteau oooh ponies 100	Posted - 2015.10.18 08:22:49 - [196] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: Aiyshimin wrote: epicurus ataraxia wrote: Nafensoriel wrote: Yli Canis wrote: The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by. I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask why? Unfortunately to balance anything in eve against WH space would greatly imbalance things for everywhere else. So yes... the pirate cruiser with a battleship grade tank is losing its battleship grade tank in favor of a cruiser grade tank. Sucks for WH. Is balanced for literally everywhere else. Whrs need to just take one for the team and HTFU. One could do that, or one could reduce the damage another way without making it ineffective for the PVE he is describing. He is pointing out that there may be a way of reducing the damage another way than removing a low slot. Possibly by either removing a missile hardpoint/ High slot or If the team feels a low must go, compensate it by increasing the passive regen to replace a shield power relay, Which does not help PVP but helps keep PVE utility. There is PVE in other places than wormholes, HS , LS, Null basically absolutely everywhere, So are you saying ALL PVE players should Take one for the team because PVP players used it to excess? Hardly balanced that, is it? I use the Gila for PVP too, Great ship, Still good for PVP, we will cope. Absolutely buggered for it's primary PVE role now as a passive regen ship though. CCP Fozzie has asked us to point out issues,and things are not finalised. Do people think he is superman, plus the wisdom and infallibility of the Pope? Of course he needs feedback from the people who use the ships, in the areas they use them. He is asking for our input. And like any reasonable person he will look and see where the unforeseen problems created by the proposal, can be mitigated, whilst still achieving the primary goal. We shouldn't get to worried at this point from a PVE point of view, regarding PVP, the effective damage reduction is in the right ballpark and honestly expected by most, CCP will just hopefully pick a different way of achieving the same goal, He has said he has an open mind. You stil havent explained what god given right you feel entitled to with your Gila? You are only clarifying to everyone how unbalanced the ship is, and that the removal of lowslot is absolutely justified. Your dog barks too loud. I immediately demand you remove it's head. Or possibly an alternative might be in order? Sorry, Was that also talking bo**ocks? My bad...... poor analogy, we're talking about a single low slot here
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1780	Posted - 2015.10.18 08:45:32 - [197] - Quote [/quote] poor analogy, we're talking about a single low slot here [/quote] For wormhole PVE, a Gila losing critical defence, is quite an extreme solution to balancing the Ship for PVP When you have no capacitor left, and the sleepers self rep almost as fast as you can kill them with one drone damage amplifier fitted, then tanking them long enough to take damage off the field is somewhat of a requirement. With no DDA one chips away almost for ever, even with perfect skills. While the sleepers try to eat your drones too. Keeping that DDA fitted, means one less shield power relay or DC, one gets chewed up before one can remove enough damage from the field. As only a passive tank survives the neut pressure then there is a Bit of an issue there. This of course is being run in possibly the most PVP hostile area in EVE. Having a tiny bit of shield left is quite useful in terms of survival. But I don't really need to explain that do I? Taking A low slot off is like beheading the dog. It solves a problem, but creates a bigger one. Surely considering alternative solutions would be the intelligent path to follow? Of Course people have no right to live in wormholes, they have no right to an income to earn enough to replace lost ships, they can always live somewhere else, Fly another ship, do something else, no one is entitled to anything. Personally, I thought the post I answered, had a valid point, and I was supporting it, then someone let their attack dog off the lead. The dog comment was aimed squarely at "her". But she has quite a history of trolling, so It was not unexpected. Any clearer now? PS the majority of my use of a Gila is for PVP, but I understand the poster lamenting the loss of it for PVE, maybe people should try to empathise with others rather than branding them as entitled, for daring to have a different need for them. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Shilalasar Dead Sky Inc. 164	Posted - 2015.10.18 09:10:17 - [198] - Quote Overall I like most of the directions I see here, but some points remain. I really question the punisher. How many T1-frigfleets are out there, you still shoot their tackle and outrun them. While we are still lacking a T1 armor rocketship. Though without bonused weapons you might as well fit them on a punisher. It looks like FW-farmers favorite ship now, more room for WCSs. Could you please, for the love of god, give warpcorestabs a real drawback, like 0% resists? Combined with mobile traktors, epithrals and DSTs and esp. mobile depots solo hunting is in a bad spot. At least do what a buddy suggested and make them turn the ship pink And not make a new ship designed to hunt FW-farmers in T1 frigs. Yli Canis wrote: The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by. I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask why? a) Funny how people everywhere are running C3 sites with way less than 650 dps tank. b) You see a T1 cruiser with 650 passive tank and still good dps and think it is ok? c) A t3 is faster to skill into than a lvl5 gila and can run C3 sites without a problem. While your point of non C5/6 income being bad is valid the arguement you are making is not.
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 1780	Posted - 2015.10.18 09:19:44 - [199] - Quote Your dreams are answered Maulus navy issue. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
gascanu Bearing Srl. 259	Posted - 2015.10.18 10:31:01 - [200] - Quote Shilalasar wrote: Yli Canis wrote: The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by. I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask why? a) Funny how people everywhere are running C3 sites with way less than 650 dps tank. b) You see a T1 cruiser with 650 passive tank and still good dps and think it is ok? c) A t3 is faster to skill into than a lvl5 gila and can run C3 sites without a problem. While your point of non C5/6 income being bad is valid the arguement you are making is not. it's funny how ppl react when CCP is nefing "other ppl ships", but when the wheel turn...it's not so funny anymore the fact is that gila and worm are not receving a small nerf -tone them down a bit- they get a nerfing sledgehammer; -20 CPU AND - 1 LOW SLOT? when was the last time you saw such a powerful nerf? even the ishtar, the mighty ishtar got a better deal, with losing some powergrid and a moved slot; while i agree that worm/gila are powerful ships, this lvl of nerfing is way to excessive, a very brutal and poor change. also it opens a can of worms, if removing of a slot become a way of balancing, who will be the next "rebalanced" ship? while worm and gila get a sledgehammer, the orthus remain almost unchanged:
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate 560	Posted - 2015.10.18 11:06:18 - [201] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: For wormhole PVE, a Gila losing critical defence, is quite an extreme solution to balancing the Ship for PVP. When you have no capacitor left, and the sleepers self rep almost as fast as you can kill them with one drone damage amplifier fitted, then tanking them long enough to take damage off the field is somewhat of a requirement. With no DDA one chips away almost for ever, even with perfect skills. While the sleepers try to eat your drones too. Keeping that DDA fitted, means one less shield power relay or DC, one gets chewed up before one can remove enough damage from the field. As only a passive tank survives the neut pressure then there is a Bit of an issue there. This of course is being run in possibly the most PVP hostile area in EVE. Having a tiny bit of shield left is quite useful in terms of survival. But I don't really need to explain that do I? Taking A low slot off is like beheading the dog. It solves a problem, but creates a bigger one. Surely considering alternative solutions would be the intelligent path to follow? There are alternatives available that will reduce the damage applied In PVP whilst having a lesser effect for PVE. They are discussed in this thread, Of Course people have no right to live in wormholes, they have no right to an income to earn enough to replace lost ships, they can always live somewhere else, Fly another ship, do something else, no one is entitled to anything. Of course People undertake PVE all through EVE, in all areas of space, they are all going to have similar issues. So it is worth discussing in the feedback thread, and bringing attention to where the proposal will have unintended consequences. Personally, I thought the post I answered, had a valid point, and I was supporting it, then someone let their attack dog off the lead. The dog comment was aimed squarely at "her" and since clarified so as not to feed the troll. PS the majority of my use of a Gila is for PVP, but I understand the poster lamenting the loss of it for PVE, maybe people should try to empathise with others rather than branding them as entitled, for daring to have a different need for them. Again, why do you insist that this particular cruiser should be able to passive tank C3 sites- what makes it so special, why not use other ships, why not active tank it? Being able to passive tank a cruiser for C3 PVE content with enough dps is obviously broken, you need to come up with a viable explanation why it should remain overpowered and not go on tangents about beheaded pets.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 101	Posted - 2015.10.18 12:13:35 - [202] - Quote Shilalasar wrote: It looks like FW-farmers favorite ship now, more room for WCSs. Good lord I only just realised ... they will be everywhere, Fozzie what have you done mate ? I know NI Maulus + scrams but really, do we have to have a ship specialized in hunting stabbed farmers? Is this the final acknowledgement from CCP that stabbed plex farming is working as intended ? Certainly looks like it.
Maxwell Hisscock Zero Pucks WO'S HO'S 1	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:03:00 - [203] - Quote Why not get right to it. take the Caldari race out of the game and stop the death of 1000 paper cuts. Then take all the ships out of the game and replace them with a tricycle and a plastic spork to fight with. There is your perfect game balance. Why is it every few years CCP has to try and drive off 1/3 of its customer base?
Sean Parisi Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T 708	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:15:12 - [204] - Quote Dude... the Gila is going to be fine. No one needs to cut their dogs head off. The ship still does ridiculous amounts of danage and maintain a solid tank. If the passive tank means so much to you then get rid of a dda. Most other cruisers woulfnt even think about doing pve sites besides for maybe the navy ishtar, t3's anf some t2's ehich really speak to how strong the gila really is. Maybe you should consider rolling a navy bc if this bugs you so much.
DeadDuck The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 166	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:19:13 - [205] - Quote CCP if you want to nerf the Orthrus dont hurt the damage output, nerf the Disruptor/Scrambler range bonus. With a nerf like that the ship will be way more vulnerable then it is. The true force of the orthrus is the hability to tackle at very long range, specially when linked with OOG. Nerf the point range and they will be obliged to go at closer distances where most of the ships can deal with them.
Perrdy Lady Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:25:36 - [206] - Quote Portmanteau wrote: Perrdy Lady wrote: Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore. Perhaps you should stop relying on ships that are hugely OP and try developing some actual piloting skill instead ? Edit : I just realised ur a butthurt PVEr, now all this whine makes sense And I'll bet my left arm that you are just a butthurt pvp'er who got whooped by a gila because you suck.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 103	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:35:21 - [207] - Quote Perrdy Lady wrote: Portmanteau wrote: Perrdy Lady wrote: Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore. Perhaps you should stop relying on ships that are hugely OP and try developing some actual piloting skill instead ? Edit : I just realised ur a butthurt PVEr, now all this whine makes sense And I'll bet my left arm that you are just a butthurt pvp'er who got whooped by a gila because you suck. Honestly can't remember last time I got killed by a Gila, been killed by plenty of other ships because I suck tho
Mizhir Matari Exodus 74609	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:41:58 - [208] - Quote How about the punisher gains 4 unbonused missile hardpoints like the dragoon, prophecy and geddon has? Should allow some flexibility and fun :) One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 37	Posted - 2015.10.18 14:10:22 - [209] - Quote How about we finally get that Black Ops rebalance? Where's that? When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 295	Posted - 2015.10.18 14:11:47 - [210] - Quote Glathull wrote: I'm loving the punisher these days. This is going to make it just that much better. You can make 2 mids work, if you're creative. Ignore the complainers, Fozzie. Punisher changes are spot on. The tormentor is the better frigate. More dps, extra mid which can be used for web or injector. The punisher's extra ehp/tank is meaningless in a gang because of logi, since nobody with brains is going to shoot at anything but logi/ewar first. Tank only matters when you're being shot at, dps/projection matters during the whole fight. For solo 2 mids means prop mod and point, that's zero flexibility. A web not only helps with range dictation, but is like having 120% extra tracking inside 13km. It also can't shield tank, which you can do with frigates with 3+ mids. Can't do injected dual rep either. Can't fit ewar. All that and it's losing it's utility high which is the only bonus it had over the tormentor. All it can do better is bait, and since it has no web a lot of targets could disengage at will.
Blood Animus Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective 0	Posted - 2015.10.18 14:37:31 - [211] - Quote Probably my first post because I feel very strongly concerning the Gila. Probably wall of text with wandering subject. First off the loss of a lows combined with less cpu is a horrible nerf, current fits are already CPU limited if you try to fit launchers and a full t2 tank and damage mods. A common fit for fleet PvP will by a DCU and 3 DDA's and then we buffer tank it and fix holes in the mids and choose whether we want an AB or utility mod, neuts/RLML and DLA in highs. In a fleet setting this allows the Gila to punch well above it's weight and is also heavily anti-t3 since our tank isn't cap or speed based and our dps cannot be stopped. Solo you get a lot of variation, you can drop a DDA and a LSE + invuln for a cpu augment in low and micro/point and some HM/HAMs for blistering dps to cruisers and still being able to stomp frogs who can't outrun mediums. It's a very dominant ship in it's class. Alright now for PVE it's pretty simple. It gets a hull resist bonus per racial cruiser level with a dps bonus on missiles to prop up it's dps. You can buffer fit it with specific hardeners and it can solo DEDs and combat anoms pretty handily with 500-600 dps and an almost magical resist profile. The other way is to passive tank it and you find it becomes a bastion of death to most PVE in the game at cruiser-BS level. 4 shield relays will have it pushing 800 dps passive tank with resists factored in on a broad resist tank, if you fit it for a specific race it will be even higher. Ok now some checks and balances. Price is one, it is the 2nd most expensive faction cruiser. Drone based, kill/cripple/outrun it's dps and it's no better than a brick. In the same note I do believe the drone HP is rather high and could use some balancing since they get near cruiser . Fitting is a pain, you cannot fully t2 fit this ship without sacrificing dps since it it cpu limited, a passive tank will see you using meta 4 shield relays in the lows with meta 4 launchers in the highs since to fit 4 DDA's you will run out of cpu. For site running Class 3 wormholes it's balanced for the fact that while it tanks every site, it requires you to actually spend money to make money amd can take a while to make back due to the constant threat of being dropped and because sleepers will focus your drones and cut your dps in half or completely during this due to webs/killing drones. Also for the sites the constant dps isn't a problem, battleship alpha is what drives your passive down as you can lose close to 10-20% shield in a volley while fully passive fit, if you like to be edgy and tank at 30-40% this could see ypu losing your ship if you overestimate your hull (I am guilty of this on a few ships). One of the benefits to running sites in a gila compared to say a drake or a gila is that you are a target that is hard to actually kill, a drake is big and slow with laughable application compared to what will be dropped on you, any tengu you find in a wormhole running C3's will be active tanked and you just have to fit an AB and a neut and you mitigate a majority of it's dps while it caps itself out (short of being blingy with a pod fit for active tank). Both the drake and a tengu are harder to get into than a Gila, drake requires heavy missile skills and if you want to actually clear sites you need to train the supports, the tengu is a t3 and as always will be a minimum of 400m to purchase and require months of trainning. Gila on the other hand, train t2 shields (important train for anyone), medium drones a bit so your dps is worth using, and the hull to 4 for resists and it's ready to roll out and run sites. It's a very newbro friendly train for people just starting their WH career or daytrippers trying their hand at something new. I've owned at minimum 6 of these specific hulls and given them away to newer members of my corp so they can join us as dps for site running as they are very forgiving in terms of being focused by waves and I lile to see them actively participating in fleets. Loss of a low slot makes them unusable for all c3 sites, period, there is no replacement unless you want to train into a drake which is worse in every way Alright now a better solution to balance the PVP dominance of the Gila compared to other faction cruisers (ignoring t1 cruisers beacuse this hull costs exponentially more than a t2 fit t1cruiser). 1. Separate the drone HP and damage bonuses, then lower it's dps bonus to drones to 450%/400% and give the drones a slight nerf to hp at 400% so they can be killed a little easier. 2. Remove a launcher and then the Gila doesn't have as much issue with the -20 CPU hit but can still be able to fit for HM/HAM and do reasonable dps for the cost of it's hull but still separating us from a slot and giving us 4 highs (3 missile 1 utility), while not killing the passive Gila. Closing statments Just because a hull is better at something at its hull level than anything else doesn't make it broken, it makes it unique (please don't mention the orthrus, quit engaging linked and snaked hulls or bring a sebo'd celestis/maulus). Removing a ship's viability in an entire section of PVE because you didn't realize not everyone flys a t3 or rattlesnake for a 30m site is rediculous, you're also lowering newer pilots ability to build their wallets when they are just trying to do something new and exciting. I like finding a Gila in my chain, you can't simply solo it mid site and encourages cooperation to kill. There's other stuff but it's already a wall of text
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 142	Posted - 2015.10.18 15:18:40 - [212] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: Nafensoriel wrote: [quote=Yli Canis]~snipsnip~(I hate omnislash) One could do that, or one could reduce the damage another way without making it ineffective for the PVE he is describing. He is pointing out that there may be a way of reducing the damage another way than removing a low slot. Possibly by either removing a missile hardpoint/ High slot or If the team feels a low must go, compensate it by increasing the passive regen to replace a shield power relay, Which does not help PVP but helps keep PVE utility. There is PVE in other places than wormholes, HS , LS, Null basically absolutely everywhere, So are you saying ALL PVE players should Take one for the team because PVP players used it to excess? Hardly balanced that, is it? I use the Gila for PVP too, Great ship, Still good for PVP, we will cope. Absolutely buggered for it's primary PVE role now as a passive regen ship though. CCP Fozzie has asked us to point out issues,and things are not finalised. Do people think he is superman, plus the wisdom and infallibility of the Pope? Of course he needs feedback from the people who use the ships, in the areas they use them. He is asking for our input. And like any reasonable person he will look and see where the unforeseen problems created by the proposal, can be mitigated, whilst still achieving the primary goal. We shouldn't get to worried at this point from a PVE point of view, regarding PVP, the effective damage reduction is in the right ballpark and honestly expected by most, CCP will just hopefully pick a different way of achieving the same goal, He has said he has an open mind. Actually to be blunt CCP had two options with the gila. Nerf its tank or nerf its damage. In any practical sense tank is the problem. What you have is a pirate cruiser hull that tanks like a HAC without any drawback whatsoever. WHers abused the battleship grade tank for a while and want to keep it because it makes c3s considerably easier to do logistically. Trouble is that's just bad design. Do you realize you are making the point for why the gila was in need of a tanking nerf by saying you have no cruiser options to solo a c3 anymore? When only one special snowflake of a hull can do it solo it should have flagged your brain somewhere that it might be an issue. And no.. this nerf will not hurt it in other PVE areas because it was already PVEing considerably above its weight class. Additionally anyone who is currently complaining about a few CPU points(which account for the lowslots fitting reqs) or the loss of a lowslot.. Read your own posts. Your arguments center around the ship and the ship itself.. absolutely nothing about balance between other ships. "Unique snowflakes" have a history of ruining games. No sane developer will keep one full well knowing the player base will continue to abuse the heck out of it and destroy thousands of man hours of balance work in the process. This is eve.. Your toy got nerfed. You enjoyed it while it was retardedly overpowered. Now it will be balanced. Get. Over. It.
Blood Animus Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective 0	Posted - 2015.10.18 15:32:41 - [213] - Quote I recommend you go on SiSi and try to run sites with our Gila first then try to run it in a drake, then a tengu, then a rattlesnake. Then look at the site value and time to completion for each. You'll see why it's the hull we choose.
ArmyOfMe Hull Breach. Outnumbered. 487	Posted - 2015.10.18 17:11:29 - [214] - Quote Yli Canis wrote: The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s. Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630. The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave. Use a dual rep ishtar for c3's then. Works fine, does 730ish dps and tanks quite a bit. QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 355	Posted - 2015.10.18 17:30:47 - [215] - Quote I really don't get why people use Gilas for wspace PvE soloing. T3s are just so much better in like every way for doing this, and it's not like they're expensive these days.
Blood Animus Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective 0	Posted - 2015.10.18 17:35:33 - [216] - Quote [/quote]Use a dual rep ishtar for c3's then. Works fine, does 730ish dps and tanks quite a bit.[/quote] 3/4 of C3 sites neut and most web, the site that doesn't neut starts off at 7k alpha (undodgable in a cruiser) and the last wave alphas for 9k. Any other ideas that don't involve 2-3 month olds trying to fly HACs?
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 355	Posted - 2015.10.18 17:40:32 - [217] - Quote Blood Animus wrote: 3/4 of C3 sites neut and most web, the site that doesn't neut starts off at 7k alpha (undodgable in a cruiser) and the last wave alphas for 9k. Any other ideas that don't involve 2-3 month olds trying to fly HACs? Hint: Exp/Kin resists are irrelevant when soloing C3s in a cruiser.
Umino Iruka Ultramar Independent Contracting 6	Posted - 2015.10.18 18:50:51 - [218] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Barghest: The Barghest is underperforming a tad in our eyes, so this change provides a slight DPS buff at high skill levels (9 effective launchers vs the previous 8.75) while providing a second utility high. -1 Launcher (second utility high) Change damage bonus to 10% per level As we keep working and incorporate feedback, it's very possible that some of these changes may be adjusted or removed, or that more could be added. This is also not the complete list of balance changes coming this Winter, keep an eye on this forum section for the latest updates. We really want to hear your feedback on these proposals. Let us know what you think! How about you give us an extra mid slot instead of that 2nd utility high? A Rattlesnake for example, has a tanking bonus as well as 7 mid slots, and the Barghest is kinda expected to be able to fit both long and short point which leaves only 4 slots for prop mod(s) and tank....god forbid if anyone got an idea to fit a missile tracking comp or two....
John WarpingSlow Aliastra Gallente Federation 95	Posted - 2015.10.18 19:00:41 - [219] - Quote Perrdy Lady wrote: Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore. After a while you become jaded by this. "New Ships!" announcements inspire the memory of Lucy pulling that football away from Charlie Brown.
Dato Koppla Kiwis In Space No Points Necessary 900	Posted - 2015.10.18 20:10:49 - [220] - Quote Blood Animus wrote: ArmyOfMe wrote: Use a dual rep ishtar for c3's then. Works fine, does 730ish dps and tanks quite a bit. 3/4 of C3 sites neut and most web, the site that doesn't neut starts off at 7k alpha (undodgable in a cruiser) and the last wave alphas for 9k. Any other ideas that don't involve 2-3 month olds trying to fly HACs? Maybe 2-3 month olds shouldn't be able to farm C3s so effectively because a certain ship is unbalanced? You want to retain your PvE farming ability at the cost of balancing the game?
RealityDaytrip Order Collective Gentlemen's.Club 0	Posted - 2015.10.18 20:24:58 - [221] - Quote I dunno, I feel like the gila with 2 dda rather than 3 can still solo just about any sub-BS, many of them it would still be able to defeat afk. Buff the muninn \o/
Blood Animus Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective 0	Posted - 2015.10.18 21:26:04 - [222] - Quote Dato Koppla wrote: Maybe 2-3 month olds shouldn't be able to farm C3s so effectively because a certain ship is unbalanced? You want to retain your PvE farming ability at the cost of balancing the game? You must not read because this hurts PVE more than PVP, I gave an example of how to retain the tank while lowering dps, which is rhe obvious goal of this to make PVP fits sacrifice a dps mod in the lows to bring them down a notch, which I can agree with, but in a way that doesn't smash the PVE aspect. There aren't many ways to make money as a newbro in a wormhole while still being in the wormhole for content, short of huffing gas (boring and slow), scanning lower class holes for explo sites (no local here, even more dangerous than K space), or heading out to space to look for explo/DEDs (well now they're not very close to home). You could do PI but that's a good bit of effort to set it all up and running it daily. Our newbros have access to a C3 all day right next door, means we can come help them if they get caught and there are fewer deaths because some people won't mind scouting holes for them while watching YouTube. I'm not getting anything out of this besides newer pilots saying "I'm not in hole because I need money so I went out to NS and still can't find anything" then miss out on fights because they're not home and don't have steady income to start building their supply of ships.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 228	Posted - 2015.10.18 21:39:53 - [223] - Quote Blood Animus wrote: Dato Koppla wrote: Maybe 2-3 month olds shouldn't be able to farm C3s so effectively because a certain ship is unbalanced? You want to retain your PvE farming ability at the cost of balancing the game? You must not read because this hurts PVE more than PVP, I gave an example of how to retain the tank while lowering dps, which is rhe obvious goal of this to make PVP fits sacrifice a dps mod in the lows to bring them down a notch, which I can agree with, but in a way that doesn't smash the PVE aspect. There aren't many ways to make money as a newbro in a wormhole while still being in the wormhole for content, short of huffing gas (boring and slow), scanning lower class holes for explo sites (no local here, even more dangerous than K space), or heading out to space to look for explo/DEDs (well now they're not very close to home). You could do PI but that's a good bit of effort to set it all up and running it daily. Our newbros have access to a C3 all day right next door, means we can come help them if they get caught and there are fewer deaths because some people won't mind scouting holes for them while watching YouTube. I'm not getting anything out of this besides newer pilots saying "I'm not in hole because I need money so I went out to NS and still can't find anything" then miss out on fights because they're not home and don't have steady income to start building their supply of ships. sounds like they joined the wrong group and should join a group somewhere where they can handle the pve
FT Cold The Scope Gallente Federation 32	Posted - 2015.10.18 22:15:28 - [224] - Quote I'm really pleased with most of the changes, though I have the following reservations: The speed nerfs and buffs are really inconsequential, as they only amount to a few percent of their ships base speed. You're probably going to have to go a little deeper to get the required effects. The orthrus will still be extremely overpowered even after this nerf. It simply has too much fitting, control, agility, and speed for a ship that is capable of dealing significant damage, and I don't think that hinging balance decisions on a new module that is unlikely to be adopted in a widespread fashion is a good design choice. Please reconsider the punisher as a missile ship, the amarr frigate lineup already has strong laser choices, it may provide a strong progression to khanid ships or even an avenue toward redesign of other somewhat redundant and lackluster amarr hulls. It's not like people are using the maller much these days either. The navy osprey fills a role that's already well filled in the navy and pirate cruiser lineup, we simply do not need to have yet another kitey missile cruiser that can shake off tackle easily. An idea I've heard before is to make the navy osprey a caldari version of the navy aug. Give it two utility highs, a hybird bonus, and a shield HP bonus. I think it's an interesting concept, and it might lead to a great ship with a variety of novel uses, instead of walking on well trodden ground.
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 315	Posted - 2015.10.18 23:54:13 - [225] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Breacher: The Breacher is in a pretty decent place overall, but we think it's could use a bit of help to really shine (and it is quite underused) so we're planning this slight mobility improvement. -0.08 inertia, +5 m/s Tormentor: Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones. +10m3 Dronebay Rifter and Slasher: Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs. Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG Tristan: Slight speed drop to the current top-dog of T1 frigates to help even out the field. The Tristan is a great and flexible ship, and doesn't really need to be quite as fast as it currently is. -10 m/s Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level Firetail and Hookbill: We're planning moderate buffs to the two least used Navy Frigates. The Firetail now matches the Fleet Stabber and Fleet Hurricane tracking bonus, and the Hookbill gets a bit better with kinetic and a ton better with other damage types. Firetail: Increase tracking bonus to 10% per level Hookbill: Change damage bonus to 25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp Navy Osprey: The Navy Osprey is well below the power curve and overshadowed by other ships overlapping its role. The goal of these changes are to refocus the ship as a flexible destroyer of small ships worthy of a favoured role in the Caldari Navy's auxiliary forces. All in all, these changes leave the Navy Osprey with a moderate damage increase (6.75 effective launchers instead of 6, and the added drones) with extra benefits when using non-kinetic damage types. The second utility high also opens up new options for energy warfare. -1 Launcher (second utility high) Change the damage bonus to 25% Kinetic, 20% EM/Therm/Exp +100 pwg +15 dronebay and bandwidth Sacrilege: Quality of life bonus for roaming Sacs, while continuing to bring the ship closer in line with Amarrian (and Khanid) trends in drone use. +50m3 dronebay Worm and Gila: Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes. Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU Orthrus: Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level Barghest: The Barghest is underperforming a tad in our eyes, so this change provides a slight DPS buff at high skill levels (9 effective launchers vs the previous 8.75) while providing a second utility high. -1 Launcher (second utility high) Change damage bonus to 10% per level T1 Frigate changes - All Good M8 - except the punisher* Sacrilege Change - Great I've always loved it. Gila/Worm Nerf - yeah they are stupid powerful Barghest - It doesn't deserve a nerf at all - compare it to the rattlesnake. Navy Frig/Cruiser Changes - All Good M8 Ok So the Punisher: +1 Turret - good +1 Lowslot - good +10 PWG - necessary for the above/turret changes +13 CPU - necessary for the turret changes Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level This is unacceptable - you should just adjust lasers cap use so we don't need a passive gunnery bonus just to use the ship. Imagine if you will any gallente or caldari turret vessel that had a bonus like this effectively removing a gunnery bonus. This doesn't make it less susceptible to energy neuts. If it had a cap battery like bonus then ok that would be interesting but that cap use bonus to lasers deserves retirement like the KE lock.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1648	Posted - 2015.10.19 00:30:43 - [226] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Barghest - It doesn't deserve a nerf at all - compare it to the rattlesnake. It's not being nerfed.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 382	Posted - 2015.10.19 00:33:57 - [227] - Quote FT Cold wrote: I'm really pleased with most of the changes, though I have the following reservations: The speed nerfs and buffs are really inconsequential, as they only amount to a few percent of their ships base speed. You're probably going to have to go a little deeper to get the required effects. The orthrus will still be extremely overpowered even after this nerf. It simply has too much fitting, control, agility, and speed for a ship that is capable of dealing significant damage, and I don't think that hinging balance decisions on a new module that is unlikely to be adopted in a widespread fashion is a good design choice. Please reconsider the punisher as a missile ship, the amarr frigate lineup already has strong laser choices, it may provide a strong progression to khanid ships or even an avenue toward redesign of other somewhat redundant and lackluster amarr hulls. It's not like people are using the maller much these days either. The navy osprey fills a role that's already well filled in the navy and pirate cruiser lineup, we simply do not need to have yet another kitey missile cruiser that can shake off tackle easily. An idea I've heard before is to make the navy osprey a caldari version of the navy aug. Give it two utility highs, a hybird bonus, and a shield HP bonus. I think it's an interesting concept, and it might lead to a great ship with a variety of novel uses, instead of walking on well trodden ground. The nosprey is **** atm m8.
Count Szadek The Looney Bin 12	Posted - 2015.10.19 04:01:22 - [228] - Quote [Osprey Navy Issue, Osprey Navy Issue fit] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Co-Processor II Damage Control II X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Disruptor II 50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 this looks fun, i can dig this
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 315	Posted - 2015.10.19 05:04:30 - [229] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Justin Cody wrote: Barghest - It doesn't deserve a nerf at all - compare it to the rattlesnake. It's not being nerfed. good call...editing post
Barrogh Habalu Forever Winter Absolute Zero. 1080	Posted - 2015.10.19 06:10:55 - [230] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level This is unacceptable - you should just adjust lasers cap use so we don't need a passive gunnery bonus just to use the ship. Imagine if you will any gallente or caldari turret vessel that had a bonus like this effectively removing a gunnery bonus. This doesn't make it less susceptible to energy neuts. If it had a cap battery like bonus then ok that would be interesting but that cap use bonus to lasers deserves retirement like the KE lock. OTOH, you're getting more slots than other ships. In the end it's final stats that matter, not how you achieve them (mostly). Not that I'm fan of cap bonus, but this particular change doesn't break anything. You're getting stats improvements, a slot, little bit of DPS and considerable cut of cap consumption. When it's applied, who cares how it was achieved? Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Azazel The Misanthrope Proioxis Assault Force Exodus. 109	Posted - 2015.10.19 06:11:28 - [231] - Quote Give Sac cap back!
Suitonia True Solo 661	Posted - 2015.10.19 06:32:04 - [232] - Quote Azazel The Misanthrope wrote: Give Sac cap back! It's base regeneration was actually boosted in the Rubicon expansion, it regenerates more now than it did prior to the rebalance. Contributer to Eve is Easy: https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Asa Shahni Eclipse. FETID 63	Posted - 2015.10.19 07:04:46 - [233] - Quote First, the sac change is the most awsome things I've heard this year when it comes to ship changes so thank you CCP. The Sacrilege was a great ahac before with it's decent DPS, great tank and range not to mention utility but now it has even more staying power with a second set of drones. \o/ Second thing I care about in this change would be the Punisher. I think the 4 unbonused gun is a great idea but the cap bonus is **** and will just lead to players changing the weapon type. In my opinion, the best way to change that without removing the 4th turret would be to give him a 10% optimal range bonus and turning him into a mini Retribution. Baby aHac Punisher and Inquisitor fleet anyone ? Also why not give the the "Sacrilege" treatement you gave the Damnation to the Vengeance ? Put the cap bonus into the hull and give a 10% rocket velocity instead and maybe a 15/30 dronebay please.
Edriahn BRUTAL GENESIS GaNg BaNg TeAm 2	Posted - 2015.10.19 09:41:26 - [234] - Quote Hey, buff my Widow, it looks too good to not be OP.
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 966	Posted - 2015.10.19 10:03:37 - [235] - Quote I strongly dislike the suggested change to the punisher. My problem is that by eliminating an effective bonus to lasers such as damage or tracking, we are returning to the days of the AC punisher. Even a 10% bonus to cap doesn't compare to the zero cap and easier fitting of ACs. Why use the lasers at all? As for a path for newer players, so basically they should skip small energy turrets and go AC if they plan to fly a punisher. That seems counter to the purpose of the stated reason for change. If cap is the issue, why not increase the ships cap or recharge rate, keep it to 3 turrets and keep the laser damage bonus?
Yngvar ayShorn Einheit X-6 506	Posted - 2015.10.19 10:47:24 - [236] - Quote Rifter needs more love. You'll give the Punisher one more Slot then all others? So, do the same to the Rifter, pls. +1 Mid or +1 Low. Whats about the Garmur? Was this Ship to fast for your Nerf-Bat? Whats about the Muninn? Is this brick flying to slow under your Buff-Radar? Whats about.. Stabber, Rupture, Vagabound? No love for them or are you running out of ducetape? Please come back with some seriouse sugestions for those mentioned ships. They nedd your love und you know it. 30 Tage EVE testen! -->> Klick mich <<--
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 471	Posted - 2015.10.19 13:20:26 - [237] - Quote Sad about the Orthus nerf as I was rather hyped about finding a solid role for it in my PvE stable. The Blood Base Burner mission is a very annoying and underpaying mission (compared to other burners! before someone bites my head off) and the Orthrus is almost perfect to run it in a similar manner as other burners: fast and dangerous. The Orthrus and Barghest are not common PvE ships to begin with and the buff on the Barghest is not enough to make it PvE viable but that's another matter. Just very sad to have to remove the Orthus as a PvE ship now as well as it really is a very good looking ship. Currently with bling it can match other bling fit ships but be a lot less frustrating while still exciting due to a tendency to explode if you don't pay attention. Interestingly enough along with this change the only other well performing (but more frustrating) alternative to running this mission, the Gila, is also getting a nerf. I don't know if this change will make the Gila even more frustrating to run this mission (or even unable to run at all) than it is now but these changes are a huge blow to me ever running this mission again. I would have preferred a more PvP orientated nerf rather than a pure dps nerf. As is this change completely removes any hope of a partially T2 (using OH) fit Orthrus being viable for this mission and forces all bling combined with OH be required while still being unoptimal and frustrating. Well that's my feedback from a PvE view point, something that the Orthus is not known to be used for. Always sad when the limited pool of optimal PvE ships shrinks by one.
Mina Sebiestar Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate 972	Posted - 2015.10.19 13:23:59 - [238] - Quote Bargest really? Fine how about tempest fleet issue get his dmg up from cruiser to battleship dmg I don't see tier one pest dominating ...well...anything why is fleet pest overlooked. Bargest really? Some of nerfs looks spot on. Did anyone mention bargest to this ppl.
Alexis Nightwish 337	Posted - 2015.10.19 14:17:33 - [239] - Quote epicurus ataraxia wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place. Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy! Remember it does only have two drones, and previously was able to launch full flights of sentries or heavy drones. Damage is applied by the Gila through both missiles and drones, I would argue, that if damage is too high, the missile side of the equation may be a better place to address. You do know that all three of the Guristas ships have only two drones, right? And that all three have a 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage, right? There's nothing wrong with the damage the Gila does with missiles. The problem with the Gila is twofold: First, the 500% bonus is too damn high resulting in a massive amount of damage from Hammerheads (HAMs with Rage is 244 paper dps, the two Hammers are 380! before any damage mods). If it was a 300% bonus (228dps) that would be much much more sane for a cruiser as tanky as the Gila. Second, the 500% bonus to drone HP combined with it's stupid huge drone bay means that killing off the drones is simply not feasible. It can field FIVE flights (flight = 2 drones for Guistas ships). There's no way any other non-T3 cruiser can compete with that. The Worm can hold 2.5 flights of super drones. The Rattle can hold 3.5 flights of super drones (but since it can use heavies, sentries, and Geckos I don't see an issue with this, especially since the Rattle isn't broken in relation to the other BS). So why is the Gila a special snowflake? Like the Ishtar, it's CCP's baby and they'll never meaningfully nerf it. So when I said that the only thing you have to do to fix the Gila is change the 500% bonus to 300%, I was wrong. It also needs its drone bay reduced to 50m3. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1689	Posted - 2015.10.19 14:22:07 - [240] - Quote tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Teddy KGB Stand Alone Forces 0	Posted - 2015.10.19 14:30:53 - [241] - Quote Let me spik from my hart... Rattlesnake is OP. Donno why you decided to leave it alone. Cos its mostly used fleet BS and best aswell nowadays. So i will put down some standard fit that people use in their fleets Rattlesnake (only t2 mods\T1 rigs) + Vulture siege bonuses 290k EHP (340k overloaded) 1500 DPS (1700 overloaded) - with rapid heavy missiles effective range - 50km depends on missile type, and half powergrid unused... 1730 DPS (1900 overloaded) - with torpedoes (over 2k DPS with +5 damage implants) - effective range - 20-30km And still half of that damage invulnerable to E-War as it comes from flying drones. Resist are very high so remote shield transfers will be supereffective One will pay 400kk for this I couldn't make any BS even close to this numbers using only tech 2 mods. So i think it's not right to leave it alone. At least its price! Standard T1 BS cost about 250-300kk+
SFM Hobb3s Wrecking Shots Northern Coalition. 378	Posted - 2015.10.19 14:37:33 - [242] - Quote Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1403	Posted - 2015.10.19 14:38:45 - [243] - Quote Previously you gave us an idea that pirate faction ships were supposed to be more powerful than t2. This would justify their much higher pricetag: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg Clearly the worm and the garmur where much more powerful than the other faction frigates so nerfing the worm was understandable. But its hard to understand why the garmur wasn't hit. Also what about all the other pirate frigs (except the dd) that clearly are not competitive with assault ships? Do they not need some help? Perhaps I misunderstood and the pirate frigates were not supposed to be as strong as assault ships. Or perhaps you are no longer following that model. Why would people pay more for a weaker ship in the same class? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
cecil b d'milf State War Academy Caldari State 18	Posted - 2015.10.19 14:39:42 - [244] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig 5m3 less bandwidth would be far more meaningful
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1403	Posted - 2015.10.19 14:40:28 - [245] - Quote Also aren't these little tweaks ignoring the elephant in the room which is ogb? That pretty much breaks everything. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
FT Cold The Scope Gallente Federation 32	Posted - 2015.10.19 14:50:18 - [246] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: FT Cold wrote: The navy osprey fills a role that's already well filled in the navy and pirate cruiser lineup, we simply do not need to have yet another kitey missile cruiser that can shake off tackle easily. An idea I've heard before is to make the navy osprey a caldari version of the navy aug. Give it two utility highs, a hybird bonus, and a shield HP bonus. I think it's an interesting concept, and it might lead to a great ship with a variety of novel uses, instead of walking on well trodden ground. The nosprey is **** atm m8. I agree, I just think that a redesign is in order, rather than buffing it to where it can be yet another RLML platform.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 281	Posted - 2015.10.19 15:01:14 - [247] - Quote cecil b d'milf wrote: Lan Wang wrote: tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig 5m3 less bandwidth would be far more meaningful Drone frigates should be able to field a full flight of drones. Tristan is hardly even OP, so -10ms is good enough to "bring it back in line". Speaking of drone frigates that have gimped drone bays, Crucifier and Sentinel both deserve to field 5 light drones. They're good ships as it is, but are more geared toward ewar support, but if they had the full flight of drones it would make them more usable for solo and small gangs.
ArmyOfMe Hull Breach. Outnumbered. 492	Posted - 2015.10.19 15:01:22 - [248] - Quote Blood Animus wrote: ArmyOfMe wrote: Use a dual rep ishtar for c3's then. Works fine, does 730ish dps and tanks quite a bit. 3/4 of C3 sites neut and most web, the site that doesn't neut starts off at 7k alpha (undodgable in a cruiser) and the last wave alphas for 9k. Any other ideas that don't involve 2-3 month olds trying to fly HACs? Havnt run into any issues with my dual rep ishtar in a c3 as of yet. Even with their nuets, its basicly easy to kill them before u have to go down to a single repper. And a 2-3 months old shouldnt be soloing a c3 in the first place if u ask me. QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
cecil b d'milf State War Academy Caldari State 18	Posted - 2015.10.19 15:22:45 - [249] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: cecil b d'milf wrote: Lan Wang wrote: tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig 5m3 less bandwidth would be far more meaningful Drone frigates should be able to field a full flight of drones. Tristan is hardly even OP, so -10ms is good enough to "bring it back in line". Speaking of drone frigates that have gimped drone bays, Crucifier and Sentinel both deserve to field 5 light drones. They're good ships as it is, but are more geared toward ewar support, but if they had the full flight of drones it would make them more usable for solo and small gangs. If they can field a full flight then they shouldn't be able to fit a full rack of guns or neuts as well, there is way too much fittings on the tristan, combined with hull rigs having no drawback (that affect pvp anyway) the tristan is stupidly OP for a T1 frigate. The speed nerf is not nearly enough, it will have zero effect on the very high numbers of them being flown.
Garnoo Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 189	Posted - 2015.10.19 15:30:01 - [250] - Quote guys, you forget about stratios... there are no other ships roaming in null... :) People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back --á EvE
Teddy KGB Stand Alone Forces 0	Posted - 2015.10.19 15:37:48 - [251] - Quote SFM Hobb3s wrote: Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein. Oh right so ccp need do nothing with that. right. Even if the price stood high Only Vindicator can get same damage with tech2 mods. but still half of EHP Rattle has.
Teddy KGB Stand Alone Forces 0	Posted - 2015.10.19 15:38:47 - [252] - Quote and yes. rattlesnake damage is splited. half from missiles and half from drones. it means no ship can counter it. Assault will be killed by drones, BS will be killed by drones and missiles. i think +4% resist bonus should be removed
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1228	Posted - 2015.10.19 15:54:26 - [253] - Quote Teddy KGB wrote: SFM Hobb3s wrote: Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein. Oh right so ccp need do nothing with that. right. Even if the price stood high Only Vindicator can get same damage with tech2 mods. but still half of EHP Rattle has. yes the rattlesnake dps is far too high for a tanky brawling range projecting drone/missile ship, it needs the -1 slot too reduce its dps T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 382	Posted - 2015.10.19 16:02:29 - [254] - Quote Cearain wrote: Previously you gave us an idea that pirate faction ships were supposed to be more powerful than t2. This would justify their much higher pricetag: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg Clearly the worm and the garmur where much more powerful than the other faction frigates so nerfing the worm was understandable. But its hard to understand why the garmur wasn't hit. Also what about all the other pirate frigs (except the dd) that clearly are not competitive with assault ships? Do they not need some help? Perhaps I misunderstood and the pirate frigates were not supposed to be as strong as assault ships. Or perhaps you are no longer following that model. Why would people pay more for a weaker ship in the same class? cause the garmur is a bad ship, its not very good (i mean it is with snakes + links, but thats not the ships fault)
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1405	Posted - 2015.10.19 16:29:42 - [255] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Cearain wrote: Previously you gave us an idea that pirate faction ships were supposed to be more powerful than t2. This would justify their much higher pricetag: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg Clearly the worm and the garmur where much more powerful than the other faction frigates so nerfing the worm was understandable. But its hard to understand why the garmur wasn't hit. Also what about all the other pirate frigs (except the dd) that clearly are not competitive with assault ships? Do they not need some help? Perhaps I misunderstood and the pirate frigates were not supposed to be as strong as assault ships. Or perhaps you are no longer following that model. Why would people pay more for a weaker ship in the same class? cause the garmur is a bad ship, its not very good (i mean it is with snakes + links, but thats not the ships fault) I am not blaming an inanimate thing. I am actually not blaming anyone. I am just wondering why they left this ship out of the balance pass. I guess we could say the garmur is not so powerful unless you put missiles in the highs and a disruptor or scram in the mids. Does that mean we shouldn't consider the actual ship overpowered? All of the tools currently available to eve pilots make this ship overpowered. Hopefully some day ccp will remove ogbs. And perhaps then the ship will not be so overpowered. But that is really hard to tell because ogb give such huge bonuses. Thats why I say these tweaks like reducing the tristan's speed by 10m/s are sort of silly when ogb just smashes all balance to hell. It's like someone trying to dry their flooded basement with a tissue. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 605	Posted - 2015.10.19 16:47:47 - [256] - Quote This balance pass while appreciated seems a bit... unconcentrated i suppose. There are some ships that needed tweaks (Nosprey, punisher) and the faction nerfs were welcome. However, things like looking at the breacher and sac and giving them minor updates but ignoring the muninn which is all but useless now is a bit odd. Not to mention the t1 minny cruiser line-up. The ruppy and stabber's only redeeming characteristic is that people underestimate them because they rarely see them. So you get the surprise factor when you know how to fit a ship properly and maybe get a kill. The stabber is rarely used to kite anymore because acs are garbage, especially compared to RLML. Maybe take a look at acs, or nerf RLML or just rebuild the ruppy, stabber, vagabond and muninn from the ground up? Can minmatar get a proper HAC brawler with more than 3-4 mids? Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 383	Posted - 2015.10.19 17:10:44 - [257] - Quote Cearain wrote: W0lf Crendraven wrote: Cearain wrote: Previously you gave us an idea that pirate faction ships were supposed to be more powerful than t2. This would justify their much higher pricetag: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg Clearly the worm and the garmur where much more powerful than the other faction frigates so nerfing the worm was understandable. But its hard to understand why the garmur wasn't hit. Also what about all the other pirate frigs (except the dd) that clearly are not competitive with assault ships? Do they not need some help? Perhaps I misunderstood and the pirate frigates were not supposed to be as strong as assault ships. Or perhaps you are no longer following that model. Why would people pay more for a weaker ship in the same class? cause the garmur is a bad ship, its not very good (i mean it is with snakes + links, but thats not the ships fault) I am not blaming an inanimate thing. I am actually not blaming anyone. I am just wondering why they left this ship out of the balance pass. I guess we could say the garmur is not so powerful unless you put missiles in the highs and a disruptor or scram in the mids. Does that mean we shouldn't consider the actual ship overpowered? All of the tools currently available to eve pilots make this ship overpowered. Hopefully some day ccp will remove ogbs. And perhaps then the ship will not be so overpowered. But that is really hard to tell because ogb give such huge bonuses. Thats why I say these tweaks like reducing the tristan's speed by 10m/s are sort of silly when ogb just smashes all balance to hell. It's like someone trying to dry their flooded basement with a tissue. What i mean is that they didnt do a general balancing pass to everything, only the super weak ships (i.e punisher), the barely used (nosprey, hookbill, firetail) and the op stuff (and 2 useless buffs to 2 of the 3 best frigates). The garmur does one thing well, it kites well with lmls and mwd + long point. However, everyone knows that, the ship cant hold down fast mwd frigates and the other ones just wont engage it unless they can force it at 0. Try actually flying a garmur, you may not due very often but you wont get many kills either. That is if you fly it solo without links/implants.
General Twitch Alwar Fleet Alwar Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.10.19 17:14:41 - [258] - Quote looks like my Gila won't be as useful in my C3. Just glad I was able to use this before the nerf. In my year of playing, everything else I've trained toward has taken a nerf bat before I can fly it. Looks like I'll train toward a rattlesnake, bet it gets nerfed before I'm effective with it . Sad about the nerf to my passive Gila. A buff to passive regen woukd be appreciated. Thats the only feedback I can offer with my limited experiance . Just wanted to share some tears for the salt farmers. I love this game so no real complaints. I look forward to exploding hilariously while trying to find a new ship/fit that works for me.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1405	Posted - 2015.10.19 17:47:07 - [259] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up. 2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler. Yes I agree. I anticipate the punisher will be a very good pve ship and it should be a fun ship to fly in a group of 5 or so. BTW: I wish they would give me my 1 mid 4 low coercer back. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Einar Tarkka State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.10.19 18:07:23 - [260] - Quote General Twitch wrote: In my year of playing, everything else I've trained toward has taken a nerf bat before I can fly it. Looks like I'll train toward a rattlesnake, bet it gets nerfed before I'm effective with it . Same. Was training towards an Ishtar, it got hit by the nerfbat. Trained for a Gila, almost done with the training, and decided to start training to a Rattlesnake just before this news hit. Good times. Oh well. Not like the skills will be useless.
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 146	Posted - 2015.10.19 18:19:24 - [261] - Quote Teddy KGB wrote: SFM Hobb3s wrote: Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein. Oh right so ccp need do nothing with that. right. Even if the price stood high Only Vindicator can get same damage with tech2 mods. but still half of EHP Rattle has. A few things.. One: CCP has very little absolute control over how much we farm rattlesnake BPCs. They could triple the mineral price and we will still make rattlesnakes dirt cheap. If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull. Two: The rattlesnake does not do "great damage" without "great sacrifice". Half its damage is crippled by zero application. This paired with a really tight CPU limit actually balances the hull. In the majority of applications a rattlesnake cant break 1100-1200 applied dps which puts it squarely in line with other pirate boats. This is further balanced by the absolutely slow as dirt nature of a snake. Even with MWD you cant travel very quick with one. It's a semimobile turret. Vindicator can at least dance as it blaps. Three: Where are the rattlesnake fleets blotting out the sky? You dont really seem them all that much because they are extremely limited utility compared to just about any other docrine. Being semimobile high sp turrets you dont really roll them out if you have a risk of getting bombed to death(because a rattlesnakes sig is bigger than a bloody carriers) and you absolute cannot chase anyone with a rattlesnake fleet short of a lamed crippled unfit supercarrier with no fuel... and even then its a slow race. The snakes unique problems actually work in its favor for balance. It found its special niche and does that niche well. The gila and the worm were operating significantly above their weight classes and had no real drawbacks compared to other similar hulls.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1228	Posted - 2015.10.19 18:28:42 - [262] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: Teddy KGB wrote: SFM Hobb3s wrote: Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein. Oh right so ccp need do nothing with that. right. Even if the price stood high Only Vindicator can get same damage with tech2 mods. but still half of EHP Rattle has. A few things.. One: CCP has very little absolute control over how much we farm rattlesnake BPCs. They could triple the mineral price and we will still make rattlesnakes dirt cheap. If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull. Two: The rattlesnake does not do "great damage" without "great sacrifice". Half its damage is crippled by zero application. This paired with a really tight CPU limit actually balances the hull. In the majority of applications a rattlesnake cant break 1100-1200 applied dps which puts it squarely in line with other pirate boats. This is further balanced by the absolutely slow as dirt nature of a snake. Even with MWD you cant travel very quick with one. It's a semimobile turret. Vindicator can at least dance as it blaps. Three: Where are the rattlesnake fleets blotting out the sky? You dont really seem them all that much because they are extremely limited utility compared to just about any other docrine. Being semimobile high sp turrets you dont really roll them out if you have a risk of getting bombed to death(because a rattlesnakes sig is bigger than a bloody carriers) and you absolute cannot chase anyone with a rattlesnake fleet short of a lamed crippled unfit supercarrier with no fuel... and even then its a slow race. The snakes unique problems actually work in its favor for balance. It found its special niche and does that niche well. The gila and the worm were operating significantly above their weight classes and had no real drawbacks compared to other similar hulls. Rattlesnake is a BRAWLER, at least thats what its massive tank suggests, but its ease of using cruises + heavy drones /sentries means it can project a long distance if it wants too, application depends on if it fights upclose torps+webs or not and it can easily do 1800dps upclose so its application of dps is still better than most ships can achieve, and the comparison too the vindi tells you its OP, as its not meant too be very mobile in the first place. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 233	Posted - 2015.10.19 18:59:24 - [263] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: A few things.. Two: The rattlesnake does not do "great damage" without "great sacrifice". Half its damage is crippled by zero application. This paired with a really tight CPU limit actually balances the hull. In the majority of applications a rattlesnake cant break 1100-1200 applied dps which puts it squarely in line with other pirate boats. This is further balanced by the absolutely slow as dirt nature of a snake. Even with MWD you cant travel very quick with one. It's a semimobile turret. Vindicator can at least dance as it blaps. It puts out great damage with no sacrifice whatsoever. It has plenty of free low slots for damage mods, and try fitting rapid heavy missile launchers, you can easily put out 1750 dps with cruiser sized weapons, so you have perfect application at 50km+ versus anything battlecruiser and above, and you'll apply a good chunk to cruisers too, with 1750 dps even half your dps will wipe the floor with them. So you could only be complaining that you can't apply good dps to destroyers and below, but then every other battleship has it a lot worse. The Rattlesnake is a beast in small gang pvp bordering on OP much like the Gila and Worm. Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
styh Sotken Caldari Provisions Caldari State 2	Posted - 2015.10.19 19:21:55 - [264] - Quote DPS has almost nothing to do with Application. DPS is what's left after "application effects" is applied. That inclues a lot of factors, that does not sum up to shooting a stationary target's resist hole. So many EFT warriors continue to fail at basic eve math in this thread. To put it easy for you DPS is Application's *****..
Vailen Sere The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 10	Posted - 2015.10.19 19:44:46 - [265] - Quote Can we look at full line battleship re-balancing? It's needed now.
Teddy KGB Stand Alone Forces 3	Posted - 2015.10.19 19:51:10 - [266] - Quote General Twitch wrote: looks like my Gila won't be as useful in my C3. no u still wont need ammo for your drones
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 146	Posted - 2015.10.19 19:56:44 - [267] - Quote A brawler has to chase and capture a target or it will be incapable of killing said target. A snake can never chase and it can only capture things for an extremely limited time.. Even within its own weight class a snake is going to die to the majority of other battleship doctrines. Hell.. Show me a KB where snakes have been used more than machs or domis. You'll be hard pressed to find it. The ships inherent slowness (94m/s) really does cripple it. Most of your complaints are EFT numbers in one to one situations. In fleet fights the snakes don't have the option of pursuing. This is the type of fit you seem to be terrified of: [Rattlesnake, Testbead] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Damage Control II X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II 500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive Large Micro Jump Drive Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile [Empty High slot] Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Berserker II x2 Trouble is... that fit cant exist. The snake doesn't have the raw CPU to do it. Hell I even left off the obligatory utility high. For a brief moment lets consider the snake received a free 37% CPU. Lets say that fit exists. Literally every single battleship doctrine out ranges it. Whats worse.. unlike most other battleship doctrines once this fit is out ranged its done. No damage will be applied period. Its also HALF the speed of the currently widely used mach. This doesn't even get into HACs and T3s... It's also using the fastest heavy drones.. and the longest ranged heavy missiles. The first thing you will say is "MGC". The second thing you will say is "cruise missiles".. The third thing you will say is "it has enough tank i can take some off". Notice a pattern? To get a snake to compete directly within the current fleet meta you have to sacrifice. This paired with a retardedly high SP requirement and slow speed makes it relatively self balancing. Hate to tell you this fellas... EFT is not real life. If it was rattlesnakes would be the only thing we ever used. On paper they look better than even T3s unless you know what you are actually looking at. As it stands snakes are better positioned to be newbie friendly PVE boats and the rare high stakes defensive operation.
Teddy KGB Stand Alone Forces 4	Posted - 2015.10.19 20:10:33 - [268] - Quote dude. we are talking about fleet Rattlesnake. [Rattlesnake, New Setup 1] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II EM Ward Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 500MN Microwarpdrive II Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Ogre II x2 Berserker II x2
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 237	Posted - 2015.10.19 20:26:07 - [269] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: Hate to tell you this fellas... EFT is not real life. If it was rattlesnakes would be the only thing we ever used. On paper they look better than even T3s unless you know what you are actually looking at. As it stands snakes are better positioned to be newbie friendly PVE boats and the rare high stakes defensive operation. chuckles I've killed and died to rattlesnakes friend. Yourself on the other hand obviously has not had much experience outside of PvE given that fitting you posted, I've never seen any fitted like that. Trust me from experience in small gang PvP situation rattlesnakes are the best battleships out there excluding marauders. If your talking large scale fleet situations such as you get in karma fleet then they are not as good as some of the others due to not being able to volley stuff off the field. In small and mid gang then it is a different story though. Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
Teddy KGB Stand Alone Forces 4	Posted - 2015.10.19 20:26:54 - [270] - Quote and you -Çrobably didn't fly abaddon before com-Çlaning about 1350m/s rattle s-Çeed.. lol
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 237	Posted - 2015.10.19 20:31:23 - [271] - Quote Teddy KGB wrote: and you -Çrobably didn't fly abaddon before com-Çlaning about 1350m/s rattle s-Çeed.. lol With MWD and MJD which is the standard pvp fit you get plenty of manoeuvrability for a battleship. Like you say 1350, it can keep up with battlecruisers and AB fitted cruisers. Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 146	Posted - 2015.10.19 21:17:25 - [272] - Quote True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story. Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness. Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for shts and giggles. In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not? Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sht like this in cruiser gangs. https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was. Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately?
Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 664	Posted - 2015.10.19 21:54:13 - [273] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull. Nawh, that is silly. With the exception of the Nestor and the Barghest, i.e. ones you can't farm via anomalies, all the pirate battleships have tumbled in price over the past year, and it's not just the over-farming. Yes Grr Gons is obligatory in that the Rattlesnake has perhaps taken a huge dive in price, but it's not like other regions don't have lots of ratting going on too. As of writing this post... Bhaalgorn - 406m Vindicator - 608 Nightmare - 368 Rattlesnake - 338 Machariel - 458 Mach sees pretty good usage; you can rat, fleet, or solo with it just fine. Clearly they know how to farm in Angel Space too. It might be a little higher in a musical sov scenario, but not by that much. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 147	Posted - 2015.10.19 22:04:29 - [274] - Quote Shh... we are supposed to be the big evil bad guys ruining eve remember? Stop telling people we are not that bad.. they might actually look at us without bias for once.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 245	Posted - 2015.10.19 22:37:13 - [275] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story. Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness. Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for shts and giggles. In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not? Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sht like this in cruiser gangs. https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was. Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately? The thing is you are trying to use it as a fleet ship when it isn't a fleet ship, your trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Small gang is where the rattlesnake excels. Like I said the RS has exceptional DPS and application against anything above a cruiser, and anything cruiser and below will be overwhelmed by even half of its dps anyway. It has a spare high for neut or nos against anything that comes near, and it can field a massive shield tank keeping the ship very agile so a skilled pilot can actually kite their opponents up to 50 / 60km, and being missiles and drones it has no falloff so all of its 1750 dps is applied no matter what range you are as long as the target isn't cruiser or below. Head on its raw stats are enough to beat pretty much any other battleship in a one on one fight barring mauraders, it has room for an exceptional shield tank, and no other battleships come close to dealing 1750dps, and that isn't considering the fact it can do this at 50km+. It's main weakness is that its damage (drones and missiles) take some time to reach the target, which is why it is not seen much in large fleets. Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
Poranius Fisc State War Academy Caldari State 13	Posted - 2015.10.19 22:45:05 - [276] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story. Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness. Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for shts and giggles. In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not? Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sht like this in cruiser gangs. https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was. Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately? You make some valid points here.. but with a long point and a fast ECM platform, you can cripple a snake to get the big brawlers in to finish before the heavies can catch up. My point here is not only can you not outrun, they are soo slow anyone smart can re-ship to deal with it. If you need to slow them down even more, drag bubbles 50 km off the gate and you use of the MJD is not null and void.
Teddy KGB Stand Alone Forces 6	Posted - 2015.10.19 23:25:31 - [277] - Quote dude. dont tell me how to kite out and refit and counter RS. When your POS going out of RF and cyno is up you wont have much time to do that. We are talking about rebalancing and personally i compair one BS (rattlesnake) to the rest ships of its class. Show me other BS's with same price with same stats. And i'm not gona discus how to catch a stilleto on Rattle or any other BS. Once again im here about balance. Cos i see everyday same picture. Most BS fleets are taking Rattlesnakes, most HAC fleets use Cerberus (recently were ishtars before nerfe). Balancing game is about making people fly different ships lol, cos all of them have their benefits and weaknesses. I just want ccp to make a good clean balance instead of killing ship classes like T3 Destroyers did with Assaults. Anyway i'm glad ccp took a balancing vector in their patches. And once again i'm repeating that Rattlesnake has damn disbalanced DPS+EHP+Range combination.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 245	Posted - 2015.10.19 23:57:01 - [278] - Quote Poranius Fisc wrote: Nafensoriel wrote: True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story. Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness. Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for shts and giggles. In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not? Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sht like this in cruiser gangs. https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was. Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately? You make some valid points here.. but with a long point and a fast ECM platform, you can cripple a snake to get the big brawlers in to finish before the heavies can catch up. My point here is not only can you not outrun, they are soo slow anyone smart can re-ship to deal with it. If you need to slow them down even more, drag bubbles 50 km off the gate and you use of the MJD is not null and void. So you need a gang of small frigates and a couple of brawlers to take one down? And by the way you'll need to scram it too because your long point won't stop its MJD. And good luck keeping it scrammed with drone, missiles and a nuet on you, plus the 1750 DPS it will be chucking out. And even if you ECM it that won't stop the drones or auto targeting missiles. I saw one small gang try such a technique recently, they lost 2 super tanked T3s in the process worth 2 bil, the RS was worth 400m. Just so you can illuminate the situation a little more care to go into specifics as to what ships you suggest to outbrawl it? The point is your tactic would not work. Only way to kill them is to pin them with something heavy and then outbrawl it. Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 383	Posted - 2015.10.20 02:06:29 - [279] - Quote Moac Tor wrote: Nafensoriel wrote: Hate to tell you this fellas... EFT is not real life. If it was rattlesnakes would be the only thing we ever used. On paper they look better than even T3s unless you know what you are actually looking at. As it stands snakes are better positioned to be newbie friendly PVE boats and the rare high stakes defensive operation. chuckles I've killed and died to rattlesnakes friend. Yourself on the other hand obviously has not had much experience outside of PvE given that fitting you posted, I've never seen any fitted like that. Trust me from experience in small gang PvP situation rattlesnakes are the best battleships out there excluding marauders. If your talking large scale fleet situations such as you get in karma fleet then they are not as good as some of the others due to not being able to volley stuff off the field. In small and mid gang then it is a different story though. Price wise sure, pvp wise no. A mach, vindi or barhest is a lot scarier to face then a rattler.
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 147	Posted - 2015.10.20 02:56:12 - [280] - Quote Why would you try and brawl mike tyson when you can shoot him from across the room? Yay great.. you out brawled brawlers. That's idiots fighting you. Snipe the rattle. Make it run. You don't have to scram it. A kill is not always the only way to win a fight. Admittedly I'm used to fighting over objectives. If you are just out to get kills them sure you have a point.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 795	Posted - 2015.10.20 03:58:49 - [281] - Quote Vic Jefferson wrote: Nafensoriel wrote: If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull. Nawh, that is silly. With the exception of the Nestor and the Barghest, i.e. ones you can't farm via anomalies, all the pirate battleships have tumbled in price over the past year, and it's not just the over-farming. Yes Grr Gons is obligatory in that the Rattlesnake has perhaps taken a huge dive in price, but it's not like other regions don't have lots of ratting going on too. As of writing this post... Bhaalgorn - 406m Vindicator - 608 Nightmare - 368 Rattlesnake - 338 Machariel - 458 Mach sees pretty good usage; you can rat, fleet, or solo with it just fine. Clearly they know how to farm in Angel Space too. It might be a little higher in a musical sov scenario, but not by that much. That may be due to marauder rebalance and it coming into its own again. Rattler has held its low pricing for a good long run now. Even when other pirates were 1 bill rides (hull only pricing). Many others on that list fell out of favor as equivalent marauders improved. this would be pve having a say more than pvp. Sales have to reflect the better buyers. Pirate BS comps for PVP are the exception not the norm for most. Price to the bears who now have a better t2 bs option a very possible wise move we saw here. IN this way (grrr) goons pushed out some rattlers long ago. Cheap yet potential good choice (player tastes dictate how good oc) over golem....they could charge a bit more to be honest and it still sell. But they never have really. I like vindi for example , hate the fact it will take all of my max fitting skills and just craps on them. I like to be "cheap" on pve fits. Less I have to buy is less I am paying off to get ROI on the buy. Plus less loot pi+¦ata factor. So I prefer t2 base fit then I so how shiny it gets. Key thing is its a t2 fit I build on. Shiny optional. This I get on say kronos. Not on vindi. So vindi kind of has to be cheap(er) now. I can already assume 3 fn mag stabs and/or other pricey mods just to clear grids (not even performance minded hear....my cpu and pg is dying fast in eft the reason). Looking at 400-500 mil mods alone, want to sell them lets get that prices to lower than kronos t2 fit in some way. Easier path than adjusting mod market prices to get to same result really.
Jus'not N'miFace Sheep Teet Industries 2	Posted - 2015.10.20 04:40:43 - [282] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level agreed it is crap that just to use a weapon system they are designed for that they need to waste a ship bonus to use them. Everyone asked for mid slot and to this guys point if it's gonna be laid out like slicer then make it fast and give it optimal bonus ... or just do what everyone is telling you and make that slot a mid!!!. No one will fly this ship anymore and you have failed for the punnisher. maybe you'll get it right next year when you need to buff it again because nobody still uses.. much like you are now having to re buff the rifter because you didn't listen to anybody.also tristan needs more of a nerf I don't know why you have such a hard on for all the gallente ships fozzie and insist they be the best ships in eve but get over it. most other changes are good I'm just sick of the punnisher sucking for so long and this is the BS you come up with... moronic What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.
Jus'not N'miFace Sheep Teet Industries 2	Posted - 2015.10.20 05:31:55 - [283] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: Um, Fozzie, ever considered dropping Artillery PG a tad versus just adding PG to hulls that don't need it? I mean...you compare the PG needs of HML, RLML's and HAMs and they are mostly on par. But AC's and Arty are like two completely different weapon systems. Orthrus DPS nerf of 12.5% is OK. it just means that your kitefag cancer takes a little longer to kill you at 40km, which allows you to table flip a bit less and sulk less often. GG. The problem is the oversupply of PG and fitting capacity here. That remains unresolved. The Navy osprey will still remain uncompetitive. The extra drones are handy, but it's still a completely subpar missile boat with nothing going for it. Just a little bit less of nothing, now. Gila and Worm nerfs are long overdue. They'll still be popular, but now just a bit slower at killdozering the bejeezus out of everything. kinda the same orthrus argument, viz, the tanks are just a wee bit OP. The CPU nerf on the Worm might be interesting, as it has some really tight fitting already. Will reserve judgment on that. Barghest buff is...welcome, i guess. It still needs a little something. Also a smaller model. it's bigger than most capitals. this just drop arty pg... fixed
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1703	Posted - 2015.10.20 06:39:35 - [284] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: cecil b d'milf wrote: Lan Wang wrote: tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig 5m3 less bandwidth would be far more meaningful Drone frigates should be able to field a full flight of drones. Tristan is hardly even OP, so -10ms is good enough to "bring it back in line". Speaking of drone frigates that have gimped drone bays, Crucifier and Sentinel both deserve to field 5 light drones. They're good ships as it is, but are more geared toward ewar support, but if they had the full flight of drones it would make them more usable for solo and small gangs. Yeah i think it should be able to field 5 but it should also only be able to carry 5, not 8 Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 216	Posted - 2015.10.20 07:10:28 - [285] - Quote Jus'not N'miFace wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level agreed it is crap that just to use a weapon system they are designed for that they need to waste a ship bonus to use them. Everyone asked for mid slot and to this guys point if it's gonna be laid out like slicer then make it fast and give it optimal bonus ... or just do what everyone is telling you and make that slot a mid!!!. No one will fly this ship anymore and you have failed for the punnisher. maybe you'll get it right next year when you need to buff it again because nobody still uses.. much like you are now having to re buff the rifter because you didn't listen to anybody.also tristan needs more of a nerf I don't know why you have such a hard on for all the gallente ships fozzie and insist they be the best ships in eve but get over it. most other changes are good I'm just sick of the punnisher sucking for so long and this is the BS you come up with... moronic What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up. If the punisher got a tracking bonus with this new layout it would be good in so many roles - even solo. please make this happen Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 247	Posted - 2015.10.20 08:56:09 - [286] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: Why would you try and brawl mike tyson when you can shoot him from across the room? Yay great.. you out brawled brawlers. That's idiots fighting you. Snipe the rattle. Make it run. You don't have to scram it. A kill is not always the only way to win a fight. Admittedly I'm used to fighting over objectives. If you are just out to get kills them sure you have a point. Yes you can try and snipe it from 100km but it'll just warp off or MJD straight into you. W0lf Crendraven wrote: Price wise sure, pvp wise no. A mach, vindi or barhest is a lot scarier to face then a rattler. A mach, definitley not, the rattlesnake is much better, even a tempest does more damage these days. A vindi is good, but it does less dps and has to get close to apply its damage, so again the rattlesnake it much better. The barghest I haven't had so much experience with so I couldn't say. Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 356	Posted - 2015.10.20 11:11:59 - [287] - Quote The only time missiles have ever worked as a large-scale doctrine is when your doctrine was based around your opponents not being able to shoot back at all. This was the basis behind the old pre-nerf Drake fleets and 100mn Tengus. The Rattlesnake obviously can't do this so it's bad. Missiles are just hilariously useless at long ranges when there's logi on the field.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3441	Posted - 2015.10.20 13:41:51 - [288] - Quote I fly a Barghest a lot these days and I think it's probably taken over from the Bhaalgorn as my favorite pirate battleship so I'm happy to see it getting a buff. Though honestly I don't think dps or lack of utility highs are an issue for it at all. I think overall the major weakness of the barghest compared to other pirate battleships is its extremely low EHP. Fit for either shield or armor the thing is super flimsy compared to the other pirate battleships which easily get 200k+ buffers. It's not like kiting is a practical option since even though it is comparably fast it's still a battleship so you're always going to get tackled by something.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 383	Posted - 2015.10.20 18:27:17 - [289] - Quote Moac Tor wrote: W0lf Crendraven wrote: Price wise sure, pvp wise no. A mach, vindi or barhest is a lot scarier to face then a rattler. A mach, definitley not, the rattlesnake is much better, even a tempest does more damage these days. A vindi is good, but it does less dps and has to get close to apply its damage, so again the rattlesnake it much better. The barghest I haven't had so much experience with so I couldn't say. Nah, the mach is still the scariest bs to meet in a small scale scenario. A rattler is damage with nothing else bar its highslots, its so incredibly slow and its weapon system is **** if you know what to do, so its really not that scary. Dont get me wrong, i like the rattler and i think its is very strong, in a 1v1 scenario where warping out isnt allowed it is unkillable as i dont think any other ship can pull off a passive (i.e cap independent) recharge of over 2.4k. If it gets to do dps its suoer scary and all the abov mentioned ships would die in a brawl vs it. Its just that in the current meta you can ignore it 100%, big drones are super slow and a single web deals with a gecko forever. It then is a slow rhml ship without massive damage. If however a mach or a barghest shows up you are in trouble.
Styphon the Black Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union 41	Posted - 2015.10.20 18:28:26 - [290] - Quote Ok I agree that Worm/Gila/Snake are all over powered for their class. I love them all and think they are great ships. I agree that a modification in stats is due. But why does CCP always seem to miss the target on what the actual problem is when the suggest a fix. The problem why those ships are overpowered isn't that the have two many low slots or too much CPU. It is that they have a 300/500/275% bonus to drone damage. That is the stat that needs to be changed not the removal of a low slot. Allow some variation in fitting and keep the low slot and CPU intact @Fozzie and just reduce the drone damage bonus by "x" amount to get the desired effect.
Poranius Fisc State War Academy Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.10.20 19:58:49 - [291] - Quote Styphon the Black wrote: Ok I agree that Worm/Gila/Snake are all over powered for their class. I love them all and think they are great ships. I agree that a modification in stats is due. But why does CCP always seem to miss the target on what the actual problem is when the suggest a fix. The problem why those ships are overpowered isn't that the have two many low slots or too much CPU. It is that they have a 300/500/275% bonus to drone damage. That is the stat that needs to be changed not the removal of a low slot. Allow some variation in fitting and keep the low slot and CPU intact @Fozzie and just reduce the drone damage bonus by "x" amount to get the desired effect. I agree it should be reduced, but I think that should be tied into Gallente battleship level instead of "here you go, free more damage without necessarily having the skills".
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 319	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:58:34 - [292] - Quote Barrogh Habalu wrote: Justin Cody wrote: Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level This is unacceptable - you should just adjust lasers cap use so we don't need a passive gunnery bonus just to use the ship. Imagine if you will any gallente or caldari turret vessel that had a bonus like this effectively removing a gunnery bonus. This doesn't make it less susceptible to energy neuts. If it had a cap battery like bonus then ok that would be interesting but that cap use bonus to lasers deserves retirement like the KE lock. OTOH, you're getting more slots than other ships. In the end it's final stats that matter, not how you achieve them (mostly). Not that I'm fan of cap bonus, but this particular change doesn't break anything. You're getting stats improvements, a slot, little bit of DPS and considerable cut of cap consumption. When it's applied, who cares how it was achieved? good we can replace one gunnery/missile bonus on all your non amarr ships with a cap use bonus including on projectile ships. because who cares right?
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 504	Posted - 2015.10.20 22:07:35 - [293] - Quote lets continue to force amarr to have ONLY laser weapon based frigates. EVERY OTHER RACE IN THE GAME HAS 2 WEAPON SYSTEMS IN THEIR FRIGATE LINE UP! amarr? lasers. EF IT screw missiles screw drones, screw amarr. just give the punisher rockets already. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2828	Posted - 2015.10.21 01:11:17 - [294] - Quote To the guy from Catastrophic Overview and his cohorts complaining about the nerf to the Gila tank....excuse me? You guys are supplying fits with 4 LSE's in the mids. Four. Most battleships only fit two. i mean, i know the Scorpion navy issue exists IN THEORY but it doesn't exist n-game to any practical extent, so this statement holds true. internet-true. I often go to nullsec and run a Drone Herd/Horde/Squad or three every now and then in my Gila. It's just so hilariously easy to dump out in the ex-DRF lands in US TZ and fix your sec status; Ab Gila with a PVP fit works perfectly fine for PVE and you keep at 93% shield or better, so when the clown who comes in local tries to tackle you, you sic your drones on him and he has to quit the field because 720 DPS. Defending the Gila (or indeed, the Worm) in any fashion as balanced, because month-old nubs can meta-fit it and run C3's or herds/Hordes, and no other T1 cruiser can do it, is patently ridiculous. no T1 cruiser should be able to solo C3 sites. None. Zip. Nil. Even T3's struggle to do it for less than a jillion ISK, and you cannot get the same tank/gank out of them. It's impossible to get a passive tanked Tengu with 700 DPS and 650+ tank. (it's more likely 450 DPS and 700 tank, which you all rightly point out, is insufficient DPS). - - - Again, yet again, I will plump for a rewrite of arty PG costs to come down. Lets just take frig weapons; Dual light beam laser II 8 PG / 11 CPU Small Focused Beam II 13 PG / 19 CPU 250mm Artyillery II 9 PG / 13 CPU 280mm Artillery II 13 PG / 16 CPU 75mm Railgun II 2 PG / 6 CPU 125mm Railgun II 8 PG / 16 CPU 150mm Railgun II 10 PG / 27 CPU Rocket Launcher II 4 PG / 17 CPU Light Missile II 7 PG / 14 CPU Combat Frigate hull base fittings: Rifter (buffed) 38 PG / 128 CPU Punisher (buffed) 67 PG / 140 CPU Incursus 45 PG / 135 CPU Merlin 40 PG / 180 CPU OK...so the Punisher now has the powergrid to possibly fit Small Focused Beam II's with some fitting rigs, but the Rifter? Lolololololololololololol. The Rifter needs at least 39 PG to fit the arty and something else. Minimum, even taking into account the skill benefits of PGU and AWU 5 which most frig pilots won't have for a couple of years. The Punisher has nearly TWICE the PG of the Rifter. The Merlin, though a shield tanker and a Caldari, has the CPU to fit rails. The Incursus hardly ever fits rails, but it can fit 125's easily. The Rifter is so far off being balanced for artillery it's a joke. The only fits concievable have zero tank, zero tracking mods and are basically guns gaffa taped to a MWD. That's not sensible. The Rifter needs ~51 PG to be an effective artillery boat for 280's (being barely enough for 3 x 280's and 1 x MWD; all other fitting being allowed by skill savings on weapon upgrades skills). Yes this will result in some 400 plate tanked AC boats with luxe fitting ease, but without ~51 PG the Rifter can never be an effective arty platform. Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 296	Posted - 2015.10.21 05:39:11 - [295] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: Again, yet again, I will plump for a rewrite of arty PG costs to come down. Lets just take frig weapons; Dual light beam laser II 8 PG / 11 CPU Small Focused Beam II 13 PG / 19 CPU 250mm Artyillery II 9 PG / 13 CPU 280mm Artillery II 13 PG / 16 CPU 75mm Railgun II 2 PG / 6 CPU 125mm Railgun II 8 PG / 16 CPU 150mm Railgun II 10 PG / 27 CPU Rocket Launcher II 4 PG / 17 CPU Light Missile II 7 PG / 14 CPU Combat Frigate hull base fittings: Rifter (buffed) 38 PG / 128 CPU Punisher (buffed) 67 PG / 140 CPU Incursus 45 PG / 135 CPU Merlin 40 PG / 180 CPU OK...so the Punisher now has the powergrid to possibly fit Small Focused Beam II's with some fitting rigs, but the Rifter? Lolololololololololololol. The Rifter needs at least 39 PG to fit the arty and something else. Minimum, even taking into account the skill benefits of PGU and AWU 5 which most frig pilots won't have for a couple of years. The Punisher has nearly TWICE the PG of the Rifter. The Merlin, though a shield tanker and a Caldari, has the CPU to fit rails. The Incursus hardly ever fits rails, but it can fit 125's easily. The Rifter is so far off being balanced for artillery it's a joke. The only fits concievable have zero tank, zero tracking mods and are basically guns gaffa taped to a MWD. That's not sensible. The Rifter needs ~51 PG to be an effective artillery boat for 280's (being barely enough for 3 x 280's and 1 x MWD; all other fitting being allowed by skill savings on weapon upgrades skills). Yes this will result in some 400 plate tanked AC boats with luxe fitting ease, but without ~51 PG the Rifter can never be an effective arty platform. Just want to point out that the rifter was meant to fit autocannons. The real problem is that there isn't a tech 1 vanilla frigate designed to use artillery. The amarr weapon/ship tweaks the last couple years didn't address the root cause for some of the energy weapons being bad. One of the reasons they weren't that great of a weapon system is that there are only two types of small beams, dual light and focused. The medium guns share that drawback, with pulse having focused medium and heavy.....and the same for beams. [quad light beams not mentioned because they're so messed up speaking of them is heresy] Artillery shares that 'quirk'. Consider...... 3 models of small railguns 2 models of small beams 2 models of small artillery It's something I've been pushing for for years but never got any traction. A lot of people don't like 75mm railguns but when you compare the fitting cost to the dps/range they are outstanding weapons. [2/3rds the dps of an electron blaster for half the grid, with the option of switching to spike for 50%+ the range of a pulse laser loaded with scorch] I admit that the rifter may be in a strange place, but it's not so strange if you realize it was only meant to fit autocannons. I'd also like to point out that it is one of only three tech 1 vanilla frigates to have a weapon projection bonus (atron/kestrel/rifter) and while it may not have flexibility in choosing what type of weapon it brings to bear it does have options (shield or armor, damage types, utility high). Options the proposed punisher doesn't. Though I suppose the damage type selection strength is moot since people are likely going to put autocannons on it like in the old days. semi-abysmal tracking not considered
Luscius Uta 175	Posted - 2015.10.21 08:00:15 - [296] - Quote Changes to the Punisher will probably make Autocannons fits popular again. Personally I would rather see it turned into a drone boat, to fill up the Dragoon/Arbitrator/Prophecy/Armageddon lineup, along with unbonused Turret and Launcher slots. Gila and Worm are too strong in their classes, so light nerfs are welcome. Worm should get its utility high slot back though, along with no changes to CPU output. Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1287	Posted - 2015.10.21 08:38:15 - [297] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: OK...so the Punisher now has the powergrid to possibly fit Small Focused Beam II's with some fitting rigs, but the Rifter? Lolololololololololololol. The Rifter needs at least 39 PG to fit the arty and something else. Minimum, even taking into account the skill benefits of PGU and AWU 5 which most frig pilots won't have for a couple of years. The Punisher has nearly TWICE the PG of the Rifter. The Merlin, though a shield tanker and a Caldari, has the CPU to fit rails. The Incursus hardly ever fits rails, but it can fit 125's easily. [Punisher, Rifter fit] 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates F85 Peripheral Damage System I 'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I 'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I Gyrostabilizer II 1MN Afterburner II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Ancillary Current Router I Can't say I don't like it. 10k ehp, 550 volleys out to 17+15 with DU, 920m/s and a 37m sigrad. 800 volleys with emp/pp/fusion, even 120dps that way. Not overwhelming, but certainly better htan a rifter.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 359	Posted - 2015.10.21 12:18:42 - [298] - Quote Quote: no T1 cruiser should be able to solo C3 sites. None. Zip. Nil. Even T3's struggle to do it for less than a jillion ISK, and you cannot get the same tank/gank out of them. It's impossible to get a passive tanked Tengu with 700 DPS and 650+ tank. (it's more likely 450 DPS and 700 tank, which you all rightly point out, is insufficient DPS). It's amazing to me how wormholes have been in the game this long and people still don't get how sites work. You can easily solo C3 sites in a Navy Omen. It will be pretty slow, mainly because you'll have to afterburner into range of every single ship individually and then slowly break their tank with your ~570 DPS, but you can do it. ALL the Exp/Kin damage in w-space from sleepers comes from their missiles. The sentry guns and all the turret DPS is pure EM/Therm. Thus, when you are in a cruiser, you can completely ignore exp/kin resists because even when you're webbed to zero by 8 sleeper frigs, those BS missiles with >300 sigs will not be doing **** for damage to you. The idea that you need tons of ISK to run C3s in a T3 is ridiculous. An armor tanked Loki takes no damage whatsoever from T3 sites due to the damage type issue. With only T2 stuff, you can get 800 DPS and 750 EM/Therm tank out of a drone Proteus, while at the same time running a salvager/tractor beam/expanded probe launcher in the highs to salvage nanoribbons while you run the site and keep an eye on the hole.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 283	Posted - 2015.10.21 12:38:16 - [299] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: lets continue to force amarr to have ONLY laser weapon based frigates. EVERY OTHER RACE IN THE GAME HAS 2 WEAPON SYSTEMS IN THEIR FRIGATE LINE UP! amarr? lasers. EF IT screw missiles screw drones, screw amarr. just give the punisher rockets already. Caldari 2 missile frigates 1 hybrid frigate gallente 3 hybrid 1 drone minmatar 1 missile 2 projectile amarr....... 3 energy turrets just give amarr their missile frigate (to follow khanid) or completely change ONE of the amarr frigates to be a drone ship so that pilots can have a combat drone ship line t1 amarr frigate(combat drones[should be punisher])/ t1 amarr cruiser(combat drones[probably maller])/ prophecy/ armageddon No, give the Crucifier a full drone bay so that it's actually usable in solo and small gang pvp as more than just ewar support.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 505	Posted - 2015.10.21 12:45:56 - [300] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: lets continue to force amarr to have ONLY laser weapon based frigates. EVERY OTHER RACE IN THE GAME HAS 2 WEAPON SYSTEMS IN THEIR FRIGATE LINE UP! amarr? lasers. EF IT screw missiles screw drones, screw amarr. just give the punisher rockets already. Caldari 2 missile frigates 1 hybrid frigate gallente 3 hybrid 1 drone minmatar 1 missile 2 projectile amarr....... 3 energy turrets just give amarr their missile frigate (to follow khanid) or completely change ONE of the amarr frigates to be a drone ship so that pilots can have a combat drone ship line t1 amarr frigate(combat drones[should be punisher])/ t1 amarr cruiser(combat drones[probably maller])/ prophecy/ armageddon No, give the Crucifier a full drone bay so that it's actually usable in solo and small gang pvp as more than just ewar support. So you want the amarr to be the only race with 4 combat frigates and no ewar frigate? Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 283	Posted - 2015.10.21 12:49:25 - [301] - Quote Seriously? How does having a full drone bay stop the crucifier from being an ewar frigate?
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.21 14:53:39 - [302] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. [...] As a new Amarr player I'm currently flying a Tormentor and I was planning on "upgrading" to a Punisher. I ran some fittings in the Eve Fitting Tool prior to playing EVE and ran the numbers to see which ship would win in a perfect sterile fighting situation. On paper the Punisher, as I fit it, defeated the Tormentor by virtue of its superior tanking ability. However, that is merely on paper in a sterile situation assuming uniform damage and ignore other factors. Having actually flown the Tormentor for a little bit I'm not seeing how the Punisher can be considered an upgrade. The two drones alone give me 25 km range projection in addition to 16 or so extra DPS. The third mid slot allows me to fit the Tormentor to be practically cap stable and offers a PvP fitting alternative. In practice, I cannot see how the Punisher's extra defensive strengths will prove worthwhile when the Tormentor performs so well with a weaker resist profile and the added DPS and utility. I'd like to make some observations. "+1 Turret slot" and "Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level" The supposed "bonus" of reduced laser cap usage is, in my humble opinion, a bogus bonus. Not just with the Punisher, but all Amarr ships which have such a bonus. This "bonus" is merely compensating for a design flaw. It doesn't directly add anything to a ship's offensive or offensive capabilities like a tracking, damage or range bonus. It simply aims to correct a negative attribute which is exclusive to Amarr weapon systems. Given the greater capacitor drain of laser weapons compared to other weapon types, the far more logical choice would be to simply use a turret type that requires less cap. Coupled with the lack of any offensive bonus to laser turrets this is the only rational choice. I can achieve greater damage, tracking, and capacitor use with blasters vs. pulse lasers. Screw a -10% cap usage "bonus" when I can have -60% with blasters or -100% with projectiles. Even now (with my current skills) antimatter blaster DPS on a Punisher is 2 DPS higher than with multifrequency pulse lasers and the ship is genuinely cap stable with an energy vampire vs. practically cap stable with lasers. I'm not saying it is worthwhile to use blasters, but I just wanted to point out how weak the damage bonus is currently. Consider your statement, "we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan". Do hybrid and Projectile turrets currently have solid support all along the T1 lineup of an Amarr based skillplan? Because there is absolutelt no way I'd fit lasers on a Punisher with the changes you proposed. Another issue is capacitor stability or, at least, practical capacitor stability. Without an energy vampire this ship cannot field an active armor repair module. Armor plates simply will not cut it in a PVE environment. This effectively makes the ship suitable for solo/small gang PVP only. And given the lack of a third mid slot it would suffer in that role (especially solo). This ship is currently designed for PVE in my humble opinion. PVP requires a propulsion module for speed, a stasis webifier for control and a warp jammer to keep the target on the field (and for control in the case of scramblers vs. MWD). This is by your game design. I honestly cannot understand how three mid slots is not a standard bare minimum number of mid slots across the board on all ships. What does this mean? I cannot afford to fit the fourth turret. I absolutely need the energy vampire. Which equates to a decrease in DPS because now I'm stuck with the same three turrets, but no damage bonus. A 10% decrease in laser capacitor use is not going to make this ship stable enough to even complete a "Refuge" anomaly. Projectile weapons are the only option real option if I want to have four turrets. So much for Amarr pride. But fitting missiles on an Amarr T1 frigate is somehow a source of confusion? At this point the Punisher become just as "skill-intensive" as the Tormentor. About that... So other things of note. "We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor." The Tormentor fills this roles and does it better than the Punisher. Also, what is so skill-intensive about the Tormentor over the Punisher? I went from an Impairor to a Tormentor. Drones III and light drone operation I is not by any means a "skill-intensive" compared to training up small projectile or hybrid turrets. A dragoon is the first skill-intensive Amarr ship that I see upcoming and it has missiles. But apparently that isn't a point of confusion for our little pea brains. "We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways." Compensated for in other ways like??? I'll admit I'm new. I don't have a lot of experience. Can someone who likes these changes explain to me where I've gone wrong in my appraisal of these changes? P.S. If you are intent to intentionally sabotage one of the T1 Amarr frigates My suggestion would be to swap the Tormentor stats with the Punisher. I'd rather fly the attractive Punisher over the fishing hook with the big smiley face. I can't be the only person to see the front windows as a big yellow toothed smile, the armor engraving directly above it as large nose and the two flashing lights on either side as eyes. Add turrets and you have ears. Looks silly.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3443	Posted - 2015.10.21 15:28:51 - [303] - Quote When your weaknesses are that you cap yourself out just by shooting, are inherently very slow and your guns tracking badly it's pretty hard to compensate when you have no medslots to fit the modules that are actually necessary to do that. CCP still seems to be clinging on to the ancient and wrong notion that lasers are inherently better than other types of turret so ships with laser damage bonuses must be horribly disadvantaged in some way. You could double the laser damage bonus on the Punisher and it would still see less use than every other combat frigate hull.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 506	Posted - 2015.10.21 17:25:12 - [304] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Seriously? How does having a full drone bay stop the crucifier from being an ewar frigate? how does giving it a full drone bay make it a combat frigate? Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 297	Posted - 2015.10.21 18:01:15 - [305] - Quote Been asked to explain my 'midslots are king' comment. Things you can do with lowslots...... -armor tank -damage mods -damage control (only need one) -hull tank -tracking enhancer type modules -speed mods -fitting mods -varied inferior modules compared to midslot options Things you can do with midslots -shield tank -mwd -afterburner -scram -long point -web -injector -ecm -damps -tracking disruptors -lolpainter -mjd (doesn't matter for frigates) -sensor boosters (which are much better than the lowslot option) -eccm (again, much better than the lowslot option) -tracking computer (yet again better) I'm sure I've missed some things here and there, but that's the gist of it. Now, imagine two ships. One has 8 mids, and 1 low. The other ship has 1 mid and 8 lows. The midslot ship has tons of options. It can do pretty much anything you want. The lowslot ship has to buffer tank and doesn't so much as have a point. 7/2 split on both. The midslot ship gained a damage mod. Now the lowslot ship can fit a point. The midslot ship still has TONS of flexibility, the lowslot ship can't active tank and can't bring a web/eccm/etc A pvp ship in this game requires a minimum number of mids. You could get away with zero lows, but never zero midslots. 1 mid = stupid 2 mids = shoehorned role of just being shooty 3 mids = the standard, can tank on shield or armor or active armor, with drawbacks 4 mids = where the **** gets real
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 608	Posted - 2015.10.21 18:28:21 - [306] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Been asked to explain my 'midslots are king' comment. Things you can do with lowslots...... -armor tank -damage mods -damage control (only need one) -hull tank -tracking enhancer type modules -speed mods -fitting mods -varied inferior modules compared to midslot options Things you can do with midslots -shield tank -mwd -afterburner -scram -long point -web -injector -ecm -damps -tracking disruptors -lolpainter -mjd (doesn't matter for frigates) -sensor boosters (which are much better than the lowslot option) -eccm (again, much better than the lowslot option) -tracking computer (yet again better) I'm sure I've missed some things here and there, but that's the gist of it. Now, imagine two ships. One has 8 mids, and 1 low. The other ship has 1 mid and 8 lows. The midslot ship has tons of options. It can do pretty much anything you want. The lowslot ship has to buffer tank and doesn't so much as have a point. 7/2 split on both. The midslot ship gained a damage mod. Now the lowslot ship can fit a point. The midslot ship still has TONS of flexibility, the lowslot ship can't active tank and can't bring a web/eccm/etc A pvp ship in this game requires a minimum number of mids. You could get away with zero lows, but never zero midslots. 1 mid = stupid 2 mids = shoehorned role of just being shooty 3 mids = the standard, can tank on shield or armor or active armor, with drawbacks 4 mids = where the **** gets real This is also an MMO where its expected that you have friends. Not every ship needs to have 3-4 mids to be viable. Does it help? Certainly, but homogenizing all the ships just so they are all viable for solo pvp is boring. There are actually a few ships that work well even with only 2 mids. Navy slicer Kitey beam coercer Arty wolf and ac wolf (mainly in null) catalyst (not just for ganking) The punisher and retribution seem to be geared towards pvping with a gang/logi. A 400mm punisher gang with some resist mods and inquisitor/navitas support is going to be mean. Its also not quite as slow as people make it out to be. Yes the punisher has 2 mids. But your friends have all the tackle you will need. This trends similarly into HACs as well. Zealot/muninn used to be very good fleet doctrines before legion/loki/mach/TFI became the norm. Both suffer from "not enough mids" to be viable in solo pvp (outside a couple niche fits) in the same way. They are fleet orientated. Hell the zealot doesnt even have drones. Caldari suffer similarly. Yes you have mids but are very slow. Almost on par with an armor plated ship. Amarr = Armor fleet orientated (ships generally follow an armor fleet doctrine) Caldari = Shield fleet orientated (ships generally follow a shield fleet doctrine) As mentioned already, the tormentor and executioner are strong ships with 3 mids. Why do you need a third laser boat with similar slot layout. This at least gives armor gangs a cheap tanky ship for tackle in FW. I already see retribution/wolf armor gangs on occasion. This is no different. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1409	Posted - 2015.10.21 18:34:25 - [307] - Quote Whether mids or lows are better depends on the size of the pvp. For solo pvp I agree mids are almost always better (but then again that coercer with 1 mid and 4 lows was great.) The fact that you can only get damage from a low slot is pretty important. And likely the most used module is a dcu which is a low slot mod. Caldari ships have the most mids and I don't think they are overpowered. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 359	Posted - 2015.10.21 19:08:05 - [308] - Quote Quote: Yes the punisher has 2 mids. But your friends have all the tackle you will need. This trends similarly into HACs as well. Zealot/muninn used to be very good fleet doctrines before legion/loki/mach/TFI became the norm. Both suffer from "not enough mids" to be viable in solo pvp (outside a couple niche fits) in the same way. They are fleet orientated. Hell the zealot doesnt even have drones. You're talking about fleet doctrine and then mentioning tackle? What? Of course you don't need tackle in fleet doctrines, the whole point is to alpha the other guy off the field. Tackle is pointless, if they live long enough to catch reps they don't need to warp out because they're not going to die anyways. If you need tackle in a fleet you bring 2 guys in bonused T3s or recons, the 200 other guys in your fleet that are there to shoot stuff don't need it. Armor tanking sucks. I mean it just flat out sucks. That's not to say that all armor ships are bad, but the good ones are good despite their armor tanks not because of them. Every single one of them would be far superior if you swapped their low/mid slot counts and swapped armor bonuses for shield ones. There's pretty much only two cases where armor is better than shield: 1. You're flying battleships in nullsec and are worried about getting bombed. 2. You're performing a role where literally absolutely nothing matters except your EHP total. (HICtor) In small scale PvP, range and speed are king, and that means shield tank. In large-scale PvP, you don't need tackle and DPS is king, so again shield tank is the best because it frees up all your low slots for damage mods. Then there's the fact that shield capitals have more than double the EHP of armor capitals once you start fitting deadspace modules to them, so shield is better there too. It's pretty much just battleships where armor tanking is still worthwhile. You mention Zealot/Muninn, but when those were good, they were good because no shield tanked medium gunship existed. The Tengu didn't exist, the Vulture and Ishtar had completely different stats, (as well as DDAs not existing) and the Eagle was literally the worst ship in the game, it was so bad.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1152	Posted - 2015.10.21 19:13:03 - [309] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Quote: Yes the punisher has 2 mids. But your friends have all the tackle you will need. This trends similarly into HACs as well. Zealot/muninn used to be very good fleet doctrines before legion/loki/mach/TFI became the norm. Both suffer from "not enough mids" to be viable in solo pvp (outside a couple niche fits) in the same way. They are fleet orientated. Hell the zealot doesnt even have drones. You're talking about fleet doctrine and then mentioning tackle? What? Of course you don't need tackle in fleet doctrines, the whole point is to alpha the other guy off the field. Tackle is pointless, if they live long enough to catch reps they don't need to warp out because they're not going to die anyways. If you need tackle in a fleet you bring 2 guys in bonused T3s or recons, the 200 other guys in your fleet that are there to shoot stuff don't need it. Armor tanking sucks. I mean it just flat out sucks. That's not to say that all armor ships are bad, but the good ones are good despite their armor tanks not because of them. Every single one of them would be far superior if you swapped their low/mid slot counts and swapped armor bonuses for shield ones. There's pretty much only two cases where armor is better than shield: 1. You're flying battleships in nullsec and are worried about getting bombed. 2. You're performing a role where literally absolutely nothing matters except your EHP total. (HICtor) In small scale PvP, range and speed are king, and that means shield tank. In large-scale PvP, you don't need tackle and DPS is king, so again shield tank is the best because it frees up all your low slots for damage mods. Then there's the fact that shield capitals have more than double the EHP of armor capitals once you start fitting deadspace modules to them, so shield is better there too. It's pretty much just battleships where armor tanking is still worthwhile. You mention Zealot/Muninn, but when those were good, they were good because no shield tanked medium gunship existed. The Tengu didn't exist, the Vulture and Ishtar had completely different stats, (as well as DDAs not existing) and the Eagle was literally the worst ship in the game, it was so bad. yeah because who needs warp disruptors warp scramblers stasis webifiers remote sensor boosters remote eccm target painters sensor dampeners ecm or tracking disruptors right?
Anabella Rella Gradient 2054	Posted - 2015.10.21 19:47:37 - [310] - Quote The proposed Rifter changes are just blah. Giving it the (flex)ability to be a poor arty ship hardly makes up for the fact that it's totally outclassed by the other T1 frigs. The Rifter needs a fundamental rethink to bring its DPS up to par with its contemporaries. When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3444	Posted - 2015.10.21 19:47:54 - [311] - Quote The specific advantage of armor tanking is that it frees up your medslots for utility modules. Which is something the Amarr Laser damage + armor resist hulls fail at dramatically. They have all the disadvantages of armor tanking, being horribly slow and their tank and damage mods sharing slots without any of the normal advantages. This would make sense in some magical world where a 5% per level laser damage bonus was a huge deal, but it's not. It's the same bonus every other combat frigate gets to its guns and none of those have slot layouts anything like as gimped. You can't even compensate for these problems with the lowslots because there's literally nothing you can fit that compensates for not being able to fit a web or a cap booster, or a tacking computer or any of the other medslot modules that a necessary to compensate for the fact that everything is faster than you, tracks better than you, has better damage types than you and can shoot its guns without capping out. The entire line of ships is badly designed, the punisher just has it the worst because it's the smallest.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 297	Posted - 2015.10.21 20:49:33 - [312] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: This is also an MMO where its expected that you have friends. Not every ship needs to have 3-4 mids to be viable. Does it help? Certainly, but homogenizing all the ships just so they are all viable for solo pvp is boring. There are actually a few ships that work well even with only 2 mids. Navy slicer Kitey beam coercer Arty wolf and ac wolf (mainly in null) catalyst (not just for ganking) The punisher and retribution seem to be geared towards pvping with a gang/logi. A 400mm punisher gang with some resist mods and inquisitor/navitas support is going to be mean. Its also not quite as slow as people make it out to be. Yes the punisher has 2 mids. But your friends have all the tackle you will need. This trends similarly into HACs as well. Zealot/muninn used to be very good fleet doctrines before legion/loki/mach/TFI became the norm. Both suffer from "not enough mids" to be viable in solo pvp (outside a couple niche fits) in the same way. They are fleet orientated. Hell the zealot doesnt even have drones. As mentioned already, the tormentor and executioner are strong ships with 3 mids. Why do you need a third laser boat with similar slot layout. This at least gives armor gangs a cheap tanky ship for tackle in FW. I already see retribution/wolf armor gangs on occasion. This is no different. If I had a nickel for every time an amarr gang lost tackle on an oversized AB target because nobody had a web...... 3 mids is better than 2, every single time. 3 mids and 3 lows > 2 mids and 6 lows And as I've said earlier, even in the logi gangs the tormentor is the better choice because the logi/ewar are going to be shot first. The tormentor brings more projection and dps, applies it better, and has that magical 3rd mid. All that extra tank on the punisher matters not until you're the one being shot at. And if you're being shot at, odds are the logi is all dead and tank isn't going to matter much.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 835	Posted - 2015.10.21 21:24:48 - [313] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Quote: Yes the punisher has 2 mids. But your friends have all the tackle you will need. This trends similarly into HACs as well. Zealot/muninn used to be very good fleet doctrines before legion/loki/mach/TFI became the norm. Both suffer from "not enough mids" to be viable in solo pvp (outside a couple niche fits) in the same way. They are fleet orientated. Hell the zealot doesnt even have drones. You're talking about fleet doctrine and then mentioning tackle? What? Of course you don't need tackle in fleet doctrines, the whole point is to alpha the other guy off the field. Tackle is pointless, if they live long enough to catch reps they don't need to warp out because they're not going to die anyways. If you need tackle in a fleet you bring 2 guys in bonused T3s or recons, the 200 other guys in your fleet that are there to shoot stuff don't need it. Armor tanking sucks. I mean it just flat out sucks. That's not to say that all armor ships are bad, but the good ones are good despite their armor tanks not because of them. Every single one of them would be far superior if you swapped their low/mid slot counts and swapped armor bonuses for shield ones. There's pretty much only two cases where armor is better than shield: 1. You're flying battleships in nullsec and are worried about getting bombed. 2. You're performing a role where literally absolutely nothing matters except your EHP total. (HICtor) In small scale PvP, range and speed are king, and that means shield tank. In large-scale PvP, you don't need tackle and DPS is king, so again shield tank is the best because it frees up all your low slots for damage mods. Then there's the fact that shield capitals have more than double the EHP of armor capitals once you start fitting deadspace modules to them, so shield is better there too. It's pretty much just battleships where armor tanking is still worthwhile. You mention Zealot/Muninn, but when those were good, they were good because no shield tanked medium gunship existed. The Tengu didn't exist, the Vulture and Ishtar had completely different stats, (as well as DDAs not existing) and the Eagle was literally the worst ship in the game, it was so bad. W.T.F.??? Armor tanking is bad? No need for tackle? Where are you pvping that you don't need tackle? Magical rainbow and ponies land?
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1152	Posted - 2015.10.21 21:31:19 - [314] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: This is also an MMO where its expected that you have friends. Not every ship needs to have 3-4 mids to be viable. Does it help? Certainly, but homogenizing all the ships just so they are all viable for solo pvp is boring. There are actually a few ships that work well even with only 2 mids. Navy slicer Kitey beam coercer Arty wolf and ac wolf (mainly in null) catalyst (not just for ganking) The punisher and retribution seem to be geared towards pvping with a gang/logi. A 400mm punisher gang with some resist mods and inquisitor/navitas support is going to be mean. Its also not quite as slow as people make it out to be. Yes the punisher has 2 mids. But your friends have all the tackle you will need. This trends similarly into HACs as well. Zealot/muninn used to be very good fleet doctrines before legion/loki/mach/TFI became the norm. Both suffer from "not enough mids" to be viable in solo pvp (outside a couple niche fits) in the same way. They are fleet orientated. Hell the zealot doesnt even have drones. As mentioned already, the tormentor and executioner are strong ships with 3 mids. Why do you need a third laser boat with similar slot layout. This at least gives armor gangs a cheap tanky ship for tackle in FW. I already see retribution/wolf armor gangs on occasion. This is no different. If I had a nickel for every time an amarr gang lost tackle on an oversized AB target because nobody had a web...... 3 mids is better than 2, every single time. 3 mids and 3 lows > 2 mids and 6 lows And as I've said earlier, even in the logi gangs the tormentor is the better choice because the logi/ewar are going to be shot first. The tormentor brings more projection and dps, applies it better, and has that magical 3rd mid. All that extra tank on the punisher matters not until you're the one being shot at. And if you're being shot at, odds are the logi is all dead and tank isn't going to matter much. eh not always. you often need to bring the deeps and have the tank. being able to hold tackle on lots of things, you can worry about that when your ships aren't instapopping. and oversized prop ships? having 2 mids doesn't mean everyone fits a scram, that's stupid.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 283	Posted - 2015.10.21 22:13:23 - [315] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Seriously? How does having a full drone bay stop the crucifier from being an ewar frigate? how does giving it a full drone bay make it a combat frigate? Are you using your brain? The Arbitrator must be a combat cruiser then, because it has a full drone bay and a damage bonus :( The crucifier is an "electronic warfare" frigate, which, believe it or not, is meant for combat. If it had a full drone bay it would actually be usable for legitimate combat, but right now it's really only good for ewar because it doesn't pose much of a threat to anyone, even other frigates.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 385	Posted - 2015.10.21 22:59:37 - [316] - Quote You cant say mids>lows. Thats simply not true in many cases.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 359	Posted - 2015.10.22 06:43:15 - [317] - Quote Quote: W.T.F.??? Armor tanking is bad? No need for tackle? Where are you pvping that you don't need tackle? Magical rainbow and ponies land? In a 200 man fleet, do you really think the line members in ishtars or apocs or domis or whatever are fitting tackle? Of course they aren't. In small scale PvP range and speed are absolutely king so you MUST shield tank even though you have limited slots available due to a need to fit tackle. In large scale PvP you don't need tackle so you want to use those slots on a shield tank in order to max out on damage mods. I mean seriously, pretty much 100% of Ishtar fleets were shield tanked when it had the 5/5 layout despite the fact that it had the option to do both. The reason is that armor tanking sucks and you don't do it if you have a choice.
xXxNIMRODxXx Calibrated Chaos Habitual Chaos 34	Posted - 2015.10.22 07:20:06 - [318] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Punisher: Let's talk about the Punisher. Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow. We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways. These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high. +1 Turret +1 Lowslot +10 PWG +13 CPU Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level We really want to hear your feedback on these proposals. Let us know what you think! The Punisher never had issues with cap (actually has a better stable cap than the Retribution, also), the 2 working fits for it are an active tank+nos fit and a passive tank+neut fit. It has a lot of issues applying the damage though, cause the tracking is really, really bad; the lack of a third M slot to bring a web really makes it difficult to apply the damage properly. Even with Skills at 5 and implants, its 130 dps are like 40 or 50 at best during a fight, because it misses a lot. It lacks the speed to even try to intercept a kity frig, it lacks the tracking to even brawl around another Punisher, or anything else. Let's see what these changes will bring... but seriously: A THIRD MIDSLOT!
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2838	Posted - 2015.10.22 09:02:26 - [319] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Just want to point out that the rifter was meant to fit autocannons. The real problem is that there isn't a tech 1 vanilla frigate designed to use artillery. snipped I admit that the rifter may be in a strange place, but it's not so strange if you realize it was only meant to fit autocannons. I'd also like to point out that it is one of only three tech 1 vanilla frigates to have a weapon projection bonus (atron/kestrel/rifter) and while it may not have flexibility in choosing what type of weapon it brings to bear it does have options (shield or armor, damage types, utility high). Options the proposed punisher doesn't. Though I suppose the damage type selection strength is moot since people are likely going to put autocannons on it like in the old days. Patently, no Amarr frigate was designed to fit beams, either. No Gallente frigate was designed to fit rails. massive skull-destroying eye-roll The Rifter was not designed for anything. it was kludged together by CCP whoever, back in the day, before a real mathematical model of the game was really well understood by more than one or two guys, and the Devs just made stuff up by drawing random numbers out of a hat. You doubt me? Look at the various iterations of Tiercide, which have levelled out hitpoints and capacitor levels to round 100's from the bespoke lunacy that came before. The problem being, CCP Fozzie and current balane Devs are unwilling, unable, or not courageous enough to really deconstruct the lineup of modules and ship fitting capacities to rework them to a logical framework. You know, you might be right. Let's just assume that Minmatar frigates were never meant to fit long range weapons. This then means that Minmatar are forever at a disadvantage in terms of play style, tactics and meta-gaming with respect to every other race. It also means small artillery was only designed PURELY for the Thrasher (and megathrons, it seems). What a great example to take to the Devs, if you are correct, and drive hom the point that artillery needs to be reformed, or Minmatar frigates need drastic - utterly visceral - reformation to give them the capabilities that they deserve - or forever be useless. It is a ridiculous assertion, but one which really does in fact drive home the crux of my argument: either redesign artillery PG costs to make fits viable, or give the hulls the capacity to fit both long and short range guns. In a metagame where you have faster ships with gankier short-range weapons (Incursus, Atron) and faster ships with more efficient long-range weapons, it is disastrous to keep the Rifter held in check because back in 2008 it was the only frigate which was put together well as an AC brawler (remember Frigates pre-tiercide, when the Bantam has mining lasers? no?) Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2615	Posted - 2015.10.22 10:34:31 - [320] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: As a new Amarr player I'm currently flying a Tormentor and I was planning on "upgrading" to a Punisher. And there is your issue. Both are T1 frigates, neither is meant to be an upgrade to the other, they are different tools for different jobs of roughly equal overall power level all things considered.
Owen Levanth Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration 417	Posted - 2015.10.22 10:40:10 - [321] - Quote Hey wow, I just noticed: Without damage-bonus to lasers, the Punisher is now a good brawler if you use small autocannons. Or maybe even a good kiter with hybrids? I have to test this when the changes come out, the Punisher is probably too slow to make good use of hybrids, but combined with it's -100% bonus to cap drain (), the option to use projectile turrets seems very good right now.
Barrogh Habalu Forever Winter Absolute Zero. 1081	Posted - 2015.10.22 10:41:54 - [322] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah because who needs warp disruptors warp scramblers stasis webifiers remote sensor boosters remote eccm target painters sensor dampeners ecm or tracking disruptors right? As long as mainstay ships are angry enough to justify assigning support ships that carry all that stuff, you don't need all these things on each and every ship in your gang, I suppose. The only issue I have is that ships that look like built to be used in such a way (like Punisher, Abaddon...) is that instead of being murdermobiles of their class that are nothing special without support, they are simply nothing special (terms and conditions apply) at what they do while also giving up utility and independence on supporting ships. So, instead of generic "I can mount a trinity and something else" ship that will either obsolete or be obsoleted by another such generic ship in the meta eventually, I'd rather see CCP implementing more rare concept of a ship for fleets trading size of mainstay body for additional support & maintenance ships (cap transfer, tackling, whatever your backbone ship is lacking because of its slot layout) to be effective. I believe that experimenting with lowly Punisher is a good start to get an idea on how this can work. Maybe Abaddons, Mallers and the like (think something along the lines of old 8/1/4 Coercers) will finally be good and become a part of interesting to fly composition for once, eventually. Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1152	Posted - 2015.10.22 10:53:07 - [323] - Quote Barrogh Habalu wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah because who needs warp disruptors warp scramblers stasis webifiers remote sensor boosters remote eccm target painters sensor dampeners ecm or tracking disruptors right? As long as mainstay ships are angry enough to justify assigning support ships that carry all that stuff, you don't need all these things on each and every ship in your gang, I suppose. The only issue I have is that ships that look like built to be used in such a way (like Punisher, Abaddon...) is that instead of being murdermobiles of their class that are nothing special without support, they are simply nothing special (terms and conditions apply) at what they do while also giving up utility and independence on supporting ships. So, instead of generic "I can mount a trinity and something else" ship that will either obsolete or be obsoleted by another such generic ship in the meta eventually, I'd rather see CCP implementing more rare concept of a ship for fleets trading size of mainstay body for additional support & maintenance ships (cap transfer, tackling, whatever your backbone ship is lacking because of its slot layout) to be effective. I believe that experimenting with lowly Punisher is a good start to get an idea on how this can work. Maybe Abaddons, Mallers and the like (think something along the lines of old 8/1/4 Coercers) will finally be good and become a part of interesting to fly composition for once, eventually. I don't think mallers and abaddons are exactly bad among their own classes. you don't see mallers because they're T1 cruisers and because they aren't vexors I guess, and you don't see abaddons because they aren't faction battleships.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 223	Posted - 2015.10.22 10:53:31 - [324] - Quote The punisher with 2 mids and 5 lows will work well both in gangs and for solo if only it got a tracking bonus in place of that cap usage bonus. for solo it could be like a noob friendly version of the slicer, not as powerful or fast but much more forgiving of pilot error due to better tracking and more tank. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1152	Posted - 2015.10.22 11:04:36 - [325] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: The punisher with 2 mids and 5 lows will work well both in gangs and for solo if only it got a tracking bonus in place of that cap usage bonus. for solo it could be like a noob friendly version of the slicer, not as powerful or fast but much more forgiving of pilot error due to better tracking and more tank. slicer is noob friendly though
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 223	Posted - 2015.10.22 11:18:10 - [326] - Quote even noob friendlier then. anyway tracking bonus be nice for both brawl fits and kite fits without making it OP. imo Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 297	Posted - 2015.10.22 11:57:36 - [327] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: Patently, no Amarr frigate was designed to fit beams, either. No Gallente frigate was designed to fit rails. massive skull-destroying eye-roll The Rifter was not designed for anything. it was kludged together by CCP whoever, back in the day, before a real mathematical model of the game was really well understood by more than one or two guys, and the Devs just made stuff up by drawing random numbers out of a hat. You doubt me? Look at the various iterations of Tiercide, which have levelled out hitpoints and capacitor levels to round 100's from the bespoke lunacy that came before. The problem being, CCP Fozzie and current balane Devs are unwilling, unable, or not courageous enough to really deconstruct the lineup of modules and ship fitting capacities to rework them to a logical framework. You know, you might be right. Let's just assume that Minmatar frigates were never meant to fit long range weapons. This then means that Minmatar are forever at a disadvantage in terms of play style, tactics and meta-gaming with respect to every other race. It also means small artillery was only designed PURELY for the Thrasher (and megathrons, it seems). What a great example to take to the Devs, if you are correct, and drive hom the point that artillery needs to be reformed, or Minmatar frigates need drastic - utterly visceral - reformation to give them the capabilities that they deserve - or forever be useless. It is a ridiculous assertion, but one which really does in fact drive home the crux of my argument: either redesign artillery PG costs to make fits viable, or give the hulls the capacity to fit both long and short range guns. In a metagame where you have faster ships with gankier short-range weapons (Incursus, Atron) and faster ships with more efficient long-range weapons, it is disastrous to keep the Rifter held in check because back in 2008 it was the only frigate which was put together well as an AC brawler (remember Frigates pre-tiercide, when the Bantam has mining lasers? no?) None of them were designed with arty in mind, and since autos are super easy to fit.......they're way behind in fittings when it comes to artillery. Look at the fitting requirements. Gatling Pulse Laser II - 3cpu/5.4pg Light Electron Blaster II - 6cpu/3.6pg 125 Gatling Autocannon II - 2.3cpu/.9pg If the pg on projectile ships were changed, they would have to increase the fitting requirements on the autocannons. It wasn't that long ago that minmatar had a near monopoly on the best ships in each class. best frigate = rifter best destroyer = thrasher best af = jag, with wolf being 2nd best dictor = sabre best cruiser = rupture best battlecruiser = tie between cane and drake best command ship = sleip And then the angel ships crapping on everything. They were best in class everywhere except battleships and capitals. If you miss those times, when everything else was inferior, I'd say you're a bit biased. The last blanket projectile buff was also during that time, pre-tiericide. When those ships were already the best they got buffed so they were even better than they were. That situation caused tiericide. Trinkets friend wrote: In a metagame where you have faster ships with gankier short-range weapons (Incursus, Atron) and faster ships with more efficient long-range weapons, it is disastrous to keep the Rifter held in check because back in 2008 it was the only frigate which was put together well as an AC brawler (remember Frigates pre-tiercide, when the Bantam has mining lasers? no?) Uhhhhh, if you're asserting that minmatar ships are slower than the other races...........
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 266	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:02:26 - [328] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Barrogh Habalu wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah because who needs warp disruptors warp scramblers stasis webifiers remote sensor boosters remote eccm target painters sensor dampeners ecm or tracking disruptors right? As long as mainstay ships are angry enough to justify assigning support ships that carry all that stuff, you don't need all these things on each and every ship in your gang, I suppose. The only issue I have is that ships that look like built to be used in such a way (like Punisher, Abaddon...) is that instead of being murdermobiles of their class that are nothing special without support, they are simply nothing special (terms and conditions apply) at what they do while also giving up utility and independence on supporting ships. So, instead of generic "I can mount a trinity and something else" ship that will either obsolete or be obsoleted by another such generic ship in the meta eventually, I'd rather see CCP implementing more rare concept of a ship for fleets trading size of mainstay body for additional support & maintenance ships (cap transfer, tackling, whatever your backbone ship is lacking because of its slot layout) to be effective. I believe that experimenting with lowly Punisher is a good start to get an idea on how this can work. Maybe Abaddons, Mallers and the like (think something along the lines of old 8/1/4 Coercers) will finally be good and become a part of interesting to fly composition for once, eventually. I don't think mallers and abaddons are exactly bad among their own classes. you don't see mallers because they're T1 cruisers and because they aren't vexors I guess, and you don't see abaddons because they aren't faction battleships. Mallers and Abaddons are actually powerful ships. And even better in fleets due to the resistance bonus. Modulated ECM Effects An Alternative to Skill Trading
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 297	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:12:26 - [329] - Quote atron = guns incursus = guns tristan = drones slasher = guns breacher = missiles rifter = guns condor = missiles merlin = guns kestrel = missiles executioner = guns tormentor = guns punisher = guns Variety is the spice of life. Though I guess the sort of variety CCP is aiming for looks more like....... executioner = lasers tormentor = lasers punisher = projectiles
Master Sergeant MacRobert Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 233	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:31:19 - [330] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: atron = guns incursus = guns tristan = drones slasher = guns breacher = missiles rifter = guns condor = missiles merlin = guns kestrel = missiles executioner = guns tormentor = guns punisher = guns Variety is the spice of life. Though I guess the sort of variety CCP is aiming for looks more like....... executioner = lasers tormentor = lasers punisher = projectiles Nice. Well we do have the Cruicfer = drones and lasers Still a Punisher with Rockets would have been nice to see but, perhaps too useful? "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:32:14 - [331] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: As a new Amarr player I'm currently flying a Tormentor and I was planning on "upgrading" to a Punisher. And there is your issue. Both are T1 frigates, neither is meant to be an upgrade to the other, they are different tools for different jobs of roughly equal overall power level all things considered. It's not my issue. In fact, that's not really relevant. That was simply my take on the ships prior to playing the game. It has no relevance on the subject of the changes being proposed for the Punisher. My main issues are: 1. Decreased DPS. Either thru a forced four autocannon fitting or three laser/hybrid and a vampire fitting (with no damage bonus). 2. No PVE viability w/o the above setups. Lack of capacitor stability enough to utilize an active armor tank (i.e. it's PVE use is squashed). As far as I can tell these changes will take an already weak ship and make it even weaker or downright pointless. Seeing as you picked that little snippet out of everything else I mentioned, can I assume you agree with my sentiments? P.S. What job does the Punisher do exactly that the Tormentor cannot do or can't do as well?
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 223	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:39:40 - [332] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: As a new Amarr player I'm currently flying a Tormentor and I was planning on "upgrading" to a Punisher. And there is your issue. Both are T1 frigates, neither is meant to be an upgrade to the other, they are different tools for different jobs of roughly equal overall power level all things considered. It's not my issue. In fact, that's not really relevant. That was simply my take on the ships prior to playing the game. It has no relevance on the subject of the changes being proposed for the Punisher. My main issues are: 1. Decreased DPS. Either thru a forced four autocannon fitting or three laser/hybrid and a vampire fitting (with no damage bonus). 2. No PVE viability w/o the above setups. Lack of capacitor stability enough to utilize an active armor tank (i.e. it's PVE use is squashed). As far as I can tell these changes will take an already weak ship and make it even weaker or downright pointless. Seeing as you picked that little snippet out of everything else I mentioned, can I assume you agree with my sentiments? P.S. What job does the Punisher do exactly that the Tormentor cannot do or can't do as well? 20k ehp tank Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:42:53 - [333] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: P.S. What job does the Punisher do exactly that the Tormentor cannot do or can't do as well? 20k ehp tank Please elaborate on how 20K ehp is a job.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:44:26 - [334] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: P.S. What job does the Punisher do exactly that the Tormentor cannot do or can't do as well? 20k ehp tank Please elaborate on how 20K ehp is a job. Bait. Nothing else. Because for solo the punisher sucks and tank doesn't matter in gang.
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1288	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:47:51 - [335] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: P.S. What job does the Punisher do exactly that the Tormentor cannot do or can't do as well? 20k ehp tank Please elaborate on how 20K ehp is a job. The same way 350k ehp on a proteus with a cyno is sort of a job.
Arla Sarain 684	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:51:41 - [336] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: P.S. What job does the Punisher do exactly that the Tormentor cannot do or can't do as well? 10k EHP 4km/s hard tackle with 4 250mm Artillery.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:54:17 - [337] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: P.S. What job does the Punisher do exactly that the Tormentor cannot do or can't do as well? 20k ehp tank Please elaborate on how 20K ehp is a job. Bait. Nothing else. Because for solo the punisher sucks and tank doesn't matter in gang. How can it even function as bait if all it can do is serve as bait? If you see a Punisher you automatically know it's bait. Because why else would anyone use it otherwise?
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 13:23:48 - [338] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Doesn't artillery have very bad tracking? What would be the point in fitting artillery on a tackler that operates close enough to use a warp scrambler? It can work in gang in novice plexes. Right now the king of novice plex fleets is the tristan. 15 or so arty punishers with good timing/teamwork could alpha through pretty much anything that can enter, negating the swarms of logi. Would need a good number of webs, quake, keep at range 4km. Everybody on primary, firing at the same time. Don't think it would work well with tremor against the shield tanking kiting tristans though.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2015.10.22 13:42:51 - [339] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Doesn't artillery have very bad tracking? What would be the point in fitting artillery on a tackler that operates close enough to use a warp scrambler? It can work in gang in novice plexes. Right now the king of novice plex fleets is the tristan. 15 or so arty punishers with good timing/teamwork could alpha through pretty much anything that can enter, negating the swarms of logi. Would need a good number of webs, quake, keep at range 4km. Everybody on primary, firing at the same time. Don't think it would work well with tremor against the shield tanking kiting tristans though. You wouldnt use tremor. Tremor isnt useful on non bonused hulls and even then, its very niche because of the massive tracking penalty. Against kiting tristans it would be depleted uranium. Tracking bonus + thermal/kinetic/explo dmg. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2015.10.22 14:09:37 - [340] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: This is also an MMO where its expected that you have friends. Not every ship needs to have 3-4 mids to be viable. Does it help? Certainly, but homogenizing all the ships just so they are all viable for solo pvp is boring. There are actually a few ships that work well even with only 2 mids. Navy slicer Kitey beam coercer Arty wolf and ac wolf (mainly in null) catalyst (not just for ganking) The punisher and retribution seem to be geared towards pvping with a gang/logi. A 400mm punisher gang with some resist mods and inquisitor/navitas support is going to be mean. Its also not quite as slow as people make it out to be. Yes the punisher has 2 mids. But your friends have all the tackle you will need. This trends similarly into HACs as well. Zealot/muninn used to be very good fleet doctrines before legion/loki/mach/TFI became the norm. Both suffer from "not enough mids" to be viable in solo pvp (outside a couple niche fits) in the same way. They are fleet orientated. Hell the zealot doesnt even have drones. As mentioned already, the tormentor and executioner are strong ships with 3 mids. Why do you need a third laser boat with similar slot layout. This at least gives armor gangs a cheap tanky ship for tackle in FW. I already see retribution/wolf armor gangs on occasion. This is no different. If I had a nickel for every time an amarr gang lost tackle on an oversized AB target because nobody had a web...... 3 mids is better than 2, every single time. 3 mids and 3 lows > 2 mids and 6 lows And as I've said earlier, even in the logi gangs the tormentor is the better choice because the logi/ewar are going to be shot first. The tormentor brings more projection and dps, applies it better, and has that magical 3rd mid. All that extra tank on the punisher matters not until you're the one being shot at. And if you're being shot at, odds are the logi is all dead and tank isn't going to matter much. Its not the ships fault you lost your gang. Your gang should have had a better composition. Some guys have webs, some have points. Or bring a hyena for webs. 1-2 hyena's plus punishers and logi would be adequate. If your logi dies first... maybe you need more logi, or better fits. Or, maybe you fought someone with a better composition/tactics. Or your logi derped around and found themselves distanced from your guys making them easy targets. I fail to see how this is all the 2 mid ships fault. Ive fought roaming frig gangs (retri/wolf/enyo/catalyst etc) that have logi support. When theyre actually disciplined and have good fits, they are a pain to kill. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2015.10.22 14:32:35 - [341] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Quote: Yes the punisher has 2 mids. But your friends have all the tackle you will need. This trends similarly into HACs as well. Zealot/muninn used to be very good fleet doctrines before legion/loki/mach/TFI became the norm. Both suffer from "not enough mids" to be viable in solo pvp (outside a couple niche fits) in the same way. They are fleet orientated. Hell the zealot doesnt even have drones. You're talking about fleet doctrine and then mentioning tackle? What? Of course you don't need tackle in fleet doctrines, the whole point is to alpha the other guy off the field. Tackle is pointless, if they live long enough to catch reps they don't need to warp out because they're not going to die anyways. If you need tackle in a fleet you bring 2 guys in bonused T3s or recons, the 200 other guys in your fleet that are there to shoot stuff don't need it. Armor tanking sucks. I mean it just flat out sucks. That's not to say that all armor ships are bad, but the good ones are good despite their armor tanks not because of them. Every single one of them would be far superior if you swapped their low/mid slot counts and swapped armor bonuses for shield ones. There's pretty much only two cases where armor is better than shield: 1. You're flying battleships in nullsec and are worried about getting bombed. 2. You're performing a role where literally absolutely nothing matters except your EHP total. (HICtor) In small scale PvP, range and speed are king, and that means shield tank. In large-scale PvP, you don't need tackle and DPS is king, so again shield tank is the best because it frees up all your low slots for damage mods. Then there's the fact that shield capitals have more than double the EHP of armor capitals once you start fitting deadspace modules to them, so shield is better there too. It's pretty much just battleships where armor tanking is still worthwhile. You mention Zealot/Muninn, but when those were good, they were good because no shield tanked medium gunship existed. The Tengu didn't exist, the Vulture and Ishtar had completely different stats, (as well as DDAs not existing) and the Eagle was literally the worst ship in the game, it was so bad. I find it amusing the goon says you dont need tackle in a fleet. So i guess you guys never had lachs, arazu's or ceptors in your fleets? I find that hard to imagine. Because you know... dictors are never primaried or anything. Never heard the term "spread points" when the enemy fleet gets themselves in a poor position? Whos doing the pointing? Oh i see, you contradicted yourself in the first paragraph. So.. if you have dedicated people like tanky T3s and recons pointing for you, why do you need more mids on an armor ship? In the armor fleets ive been in, some people had points, others had ewar, and then we also had dedicated tackle ships. So yes, tackle exists in fleets, even you agree, after you disagreed. Armor fits are perfectly viable. Even in solo pvp. Ive used plated canes, harbs, phoons and other ships before that worked well. For BS, armor fits are great, especially when you have an MJD. Fitting an MJD+prop on a shield fit is a pain. I believe you only speak for yourself about solo pvp. Ive used armor fits just as much as ive used shield fits. Or ive used hull tanks (best of both). Armor frees up mids, great for squeezing in web/scram/prop/MJD in my 4 mid harb/cane. Range/speed is not key. Application/survivability is key. People just dont know how to think for themselves and think they need to join the kitey meta and ignore what armor fits provide. The muninn existed as an alpha doctrine and was normally shield fit (this due mainly to PG restraints of arty and it not having any damage in armor fit since it had to fit all tank to fill in resist holes). The zealot was used for its low sig and good range. Not to mention it countered drake blobs well with an AB and high resists. A shield gun ship did exist, the ferox. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 15:05:50 - [342] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Its not the ships fault you lost your gang. Your gang should have had a better composition. Some guys have webs, some have points. Or bring a hyena for webs. 1-2 hyena's plus punishers and logi would be adequate. If your logi dies first... maybe you need more logi, or better fits. Or, maybe you fought someone with a better composition/tactics. Or your logi derped around and found themselves distanced from your guys making them easy targets. I fail to see how this is all the 2 mid ships fault. Ive fought roaming frig gangs (retri/wolf/enyo/catalyst etc) that have logi support. When theyre actually disciplined and have good fits, they are a pain to kill. There are four ships in the game with 2 mids. Punisher, coercer, slicer, retribution. All but one of those ships have a projection bonus, the punisher. It's inflexible. It's bad. There is no reason at all to ever take a punisher over a tristan. The tristan has all the projection you could want, with flexibility to it's slot layout. It's terrible for solo, so the only thing you could possibly ever want to use it for is gang. Because it's so bad you need other people to make up for it's shortcomings. We already discussed how it's tank is MEANINGLESS in gang, because frigate fleets must take care of the ewar/logi first. Both sides have to do it. Look at the tormentor. It can shield tank if you want, can have enough buffer to last until reps land (which is all the tank you need) and has those two drones that make all the difference. Even in-race there is no reason to take the punisher over another option. The tormentor not only brings more dps to the table, it's drones give it a bit of projection, AND it has a 3rd mid for web/ewar. The tank on the punisher doesn't matter until it's being shot at, and if a punisher is being shot at the fight has already been lost. Most likely because you brought punishers instead of, you know, actual good frigates.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 284	Posted - 2015.10.22 15:19:44 - [343] - Quote Yet Slicer is legitimately one of the best frigates in the game period. 10mn Coercer beats any other turret destroyer because of sig tank and the combined tracking and range of scorch. Punisher is bad because of overall poor ship design, not because it only has two mid slots.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 16:15:15 - [344] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Yet Slicer is legitimately one of the best frigates in the game period. 10mn Coercer beats any other turret destroyer because of sig tank and the combined tracking and range of scorch. Punisher is bad because of overall poor ship design, not because it only has two mid slots. Slicer's target selection isn't much to write home about, and it's a one-trick pony. The other navy frigates aren't shoehorned into one role. and lol @ sig tanking other destroyers in a coercer
xXxNIMRODxXx Calibrated Chaos Habitual Chaos 34	Posted - 2015.10.22 16:21:07 - [345] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Yet Slicer is legitimately one of the best frigates in the game period. 10mn Coercer beats any other turret destroyer because of sig tank and the combined tracking and range of scorch. Punisher is bad because of overall poor ship design, not because it only has two mid slots. You're better off talking about your rusty ships, the Punisher's only fault is its lack of tracking. It is cap stable with active rep and a nos It is cap stable with a neut and a passive tank It's slow, but tanky. Lacks Tracking, that's it. A 3rd midslot always helps though.
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 532	Posted - 2015.10.22 16:31:25 - [346] - Quote Meh. None of this matters now with direct sp purchasing coming. Already canceled my last two accounts. Eve will no longer be true to itself. Have liked the balancing effort. But fotm chasing will just remain and get worse with direct sp purchasing. Eve is dead, thanks for all the fish, and no one can have my stuffs etc. It will just remain as digital rot on whatever blade server remains. laters. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 16:35:53 - [347] - Quote xXxNIMRODxXx wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Yet Slicer is legitimately one of the best frigates in the game period. 10mn Coercer beats any other turret destroyer because of sig tank and the combined tracking and range of scorch. Punisher is bad because of overall poor ship design, not because it only has two mid slots. You're better off talking about your rusty ships, the Punisher's only fault is its lack of tracking. It is cap stable with active rep and a nos It is cap stable with a neut and a passive tank It's slow, but tanky. Lacks Tracking, that's it. A 3rd midslot always helps though. Actually, any frigate can do rep + nos and neut + guns, without the drawbacks of being slow and mid-gimped.
xXxNIMRODxXx Calibrated Chaos Habitual Chaos 35	Posted - 2015.10.22 16:37:22 - [348] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: xXxNIMRODxXx wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Yet Slicer is legitimately one of the best frigates in the game period. 10mn Coercer beats any other turret destroyer because of sig tank and the combined tracking and range of scorch. Punisher is bad because of overall poor ship design, not because it only has two mid slots. You're better off talking about your rusty ships, the Punisher's only fault is its lack of tracking. It is cap stable with active rep and a nos It is cap stable with a neut and a passive tank It's slow, but tanky. Lacks Tracking, that's it. A 3rd midslot always helps though. Actually, any frigate can do rep + nos and neut + guns, without the drawbacks of being slow and mid-gimped. Thanks bro...
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2015.10.22 16:43:39 - [349] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: Its not the ships fault you lost your gang. Your gang should have had a better composition. Some guys have webs, some have points. Or bring a hyena for webs. 1-2 hyena's plus punishers and logi would be adequate. If your logi dies first... maybe you need more logi, or better fits. Or, maybe you fought someone with a better composition/tactics. Or your logi derped around and found themselves distanced from your guys making them easy targets. I fail to see how this is all the 2 mid ships fault. Ive fought roaming frig gangs (retri/wolf/enyo/catalyst etc) that have logi support. When theyre actually disciplined and have good fits, they are a pain to kill. There are six ships in the game with 2 mids. Punisher, coercer, slicer, retribution, wolf, dragoon All but one of those ships have a projection bonus, the punisher. It's inflexible. It's bad. There is no reason at all to ever take a punisher over a tristan. The tristan has all the projection you could want, with flexibility to it's slot layout. It's terrible for solo, so the only thing you could possibly ever want to use it for is gang. Because it's so bad you need other people to make up for it's shortcomings. We already discussed how it's tank is MEANINGLESS in gang, because frigate fleets must take care of the ewar/logi first. Both sides have to do it. Look at the tormentor. It can shield tank if you want, can have enough buffer to last until reps land (which is all the tank you need) and has those two drones that make all the difference. Even in-race there is no reason to take the punisher over another option. The tormentor not only brings more dps to the table, it's drones give it a bit of projection, AND it has a 3rd mid for web/ewar. The tank on the punisher doesn't matter until it's being shot at, and if a punisher is being shot at the fight has already been lost. Most likely because you brought punishers instead of, you know, actual good frigates. Well 8 if you want to include the catalyst and eris too. Punisher will do more dps and tank better than a kite tristan. Currently the punisher/tristan base speed is roughly 100m/s different when fit with MWD. After these changes the tristan will be slower, the punisher will have an extra low free to use with a nano, more tank or gank. The punisher has better base agility as well. So.. if you have a clue on how to fight a kitey opponent, it should not be hard to slingshot a tristan. Where then the higher dmg/tank comes into play. If your whole gang is made up of punishers.. then i guess they could shoot your logi. The argument can be made to have a better logi chain or fit. Or upgrade to aug/exeq. Logi getting blapped is viable in any situation, not just your punisher with 2 mids scenario. Ive yet to come across a tristan gang with logi yet.. but have dealt with punisher/ret/wolf gangs with logi. Ive flown a 10mn Ab beam punisher (and ret) and worked fairly well. This extra low might be enough make it even more viable. Sometimes you have to think outside the box for solo work. Slapping on a plate and ab and saying i have no range or range control makes you think the ship is inflexible.. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 223	Posted - 2015.10.22 17:02:48 - [350] - Quote Deacon Abox wrote: Meh. None of this matters now with direct sp purchasing coming. Already canceled my last two accounts. Eve will no longer be true to itself. Have liked the balancing effort. But fotm chasing will just remain and get worse with direct sp purchasing. Eve is dead, thanks for all the fish, and no one can have my stuffs etc. It will just remain as digital rot on whatever blade server remains. laters. I don't think it's going to have nearly as big of an impact as people seem to think, it definitely won't be practical for large numbers of players to chase fotm. maybe a very few very rich players can afford to abuse it, but for 99% of us it will be business as usual. People should at least wait for it to go live, it might not even make it to tq, and if it does and if it's a balls they'll pull it quick and we'll all know never to go down that road again. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 284	Posted - 2015.10.22 17:06:01 - [351] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Slicer's target selection isn't much to write home about, and it's a one-trick pony. The other navy frigates aren't shoehorned into one role. and lol @ sig tanking other destroyers in a coercer Slicer is great for target selection because you can avoid fighting pretty much anything. You're right it's a one trick pony but it is still easily one of the best frigates in the game like I said. There's no way around it. No other frigate can do what the Slicer does, it has the speed of an interceptor and the projection of a sniper Confessor. Your destroyer comment just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about here. 10mn Coercer has a 60m sig, with scorch you hit out to 20km. I've beaten so many other turret destroyers in it, even though they had far greater paper tank and dps, simply because they can't track nearly as well as Coercer can at 15km or so, without the 10mn AB this would not be possible.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 284	Posted - 2015.10.22 17:08:05 - [352] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Actually, any frigate can do rep + nos and neut + guns, without the drawbacks of being slow and mid-gimped. Incursus can't, Merlin can't, Tormentor can't, breacher can't, seriously what are you talking about
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 17:29:12 - [353] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Slicer is great for target selection because you can avoid fighting pretty much anything. You're right it's a one trick pony but it is still easily one of the best frigates in the game like I said. There's no way around it. No other frigate can do what the Slicer does, it has the speed of an interceptor and the projection of a sniper Confessor. Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader. Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it. Ares Desideratus wrote: Your destroyer comment just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about here. 10mn Coercer has a 60m sig, with scorch you hit out to 20km. I've beaten so many other turret destroyers in it, even though they had far greater paper tank and dps, simply because they can't track nearly as well as Coercer can at 15km or so, without the 10mn AB this would not be possible. Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking. There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 17:32:17 - [354] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Actually, any frigate can do rep + nos and neut + guns, without the drawbacks of being slow and mid-gimped. Incursus can't, Merlin can't, Tormentor can't, breacher can't, seriously what are you talking about You're naming ships with no utility high but that DO have more mids than a punisher. You know, ships that can fit an injector. Injector > nos And the punisher is losing it's utility high, so the point that was made is moot anyway.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2015.10.22 17:53:34 - [355] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Actually, any frigate can do rep + nos and neut + guns, without the drawbacks of being slow and mid-gimped. Incursus can't, Merlin can't, Tormentor can't, breacher can't, seriously what are you talking about You're naming ships with no utility high but that DO have more mids than a punisher. You know, ships that can fit an injector. Injector > nos And the punisher is losing it's utility high, so the point that was made is moot anyway. You said "any" frigate can do rep+nos. That would imply you meant any frigate. Not just ones with 2 mids or without utility highs. Stop moving the goal posts, or reread what you type to make sure it means what you want it to. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 17:58:00 - [356] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Actually, any frigate can do rep + nos and neut + guns, without the drawbacks of being slow and mid-gimped. Incursus can't, Merlin can't, Tormentor can't, breacher can't, seriously what are you talking about You're naming ships with no utility high but that DO have more mids than a punisher. You know, ships that can fit an injector. Injector > nos And the punisher is losing it's utility high, so the point that was made is moot anyway. You said "any" frigate can do rep+nos. That would imply you meant any frigate. Not just ones with 2 mids or without utility highs. Stop moving the goal posts, or reread what you type to make sure it means what you want it to. If the intent is cap stability with a rep and guns, you're the one nitpicking and bringing up shield tank bonused ships.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 359	Posted - 2015.10.22 18:12:51 - [357] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: I find it amusing the goon says you dont need tackle in a fleet. So i guess you guys never had lachs, arazu's or ceptors in your fleets? I find that hard to imagine. Because you know... dictors are never primaried or anything. Never heard the term "spread points" when the enemy fleet gets themselves in a poor position? Whos doing the pointing? Oh i see, you contradicted yourself in the first paragraph. So.. if you have dedicated people like tanky T3s and recons pointing for you, why do you need more mids on an armor ship? The point is that when other people are tackling for you, you use your mids on a shield tank so you can fill your lows with damage mods. I mean, obviously you don't shield tank a 7/3 slot layout ship. That's stupid. You pick shield whenever you have a choice. There's a reason 99% of Ishtars shield tanked when it had the 5/5 slot layout. Armor is bad if you have a choice. The Jaguar and Svipul are both 4/4 and have no specific shield or armor bonuses. They're shield tanked 99%+ of the time. How often do people armor tank Tempests or Naglfars? Quote: Armor fits are perfectly viable. Even in solo pvp. Ive used plated canes, harbs, phoons and other ships before that worked well. For BS, armor fits are great, especially when you have an MJD. Fitting an MJD+prop on a shield fit is a pain. Of course armor fits are viable. There are lots of types of ship that are only available in armor, you don't have the choice to shield tank. The point is that all else being equal, shield is simply better than armor. Every armor tanked ship in the game would be improved if their low and midslot counts were swapped. Again, the only real exception would be battleships against bombers.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2015.10.22 18:15:26 - [358] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Actually, any frigate can do rep + nos and neut + guns, without the drawbacks of being slow and mid-gimped. Incursus can't, Merlin can't, Tormentor can't, breacher can't, seriously what are you talking about You're naming ships with no utility high but that DO have more mids than a punisher. You know, ships that can fit an injector. Injector > nos And the punisher is losing it's utility high, so the point that was made is moot anyway. You said "any" frigate can do rep+nos. That would imply you meant any frigate. Not just ones with 2 mids or without utility highs. Stop moving the goal posts, or reread what you type to make sure it means what you want it to. If the intent is cap stability with a rep and guns, you're the one nitpicking and bringing up shield tank bonused ships. 1. I didnt say anything about shield ships. You should recheck who said what. 2. If you specified what you meant, then im sure the person who quoted the breacher/merlin wouldnt have. Not our fault you cant structure a sentence correctly. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 298	Posted - 2015.10.22 18:24:27 - [359] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: 1. I didnt say anything about shield ships. You should recheck who said what. 2. If you specified what you meant, then im sure the person who quoted the breacher/merlin wouldnt have. Not our fault you cant structure a sentence correctly. Different guy, same moot point. No utility high on upcoming punisher.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2015.10.22 18:38:40 - [360] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: I find it amusing the goon says you dont need tackle in a fleet. So i guess you guys never had lachs, arazu's or ceptors in your fleets? I find that hard to imagine. Because you know... dictors are never primaried or anything. Never heard the term "spread points" when the enemy fleet gets themselves in a poor position? Whos doing the pointing? Oh i see, you contradicted yourself in the first paragraph. So.. if you have dedicated people like tanky T3s and recons pointing for you, why do you need more mids on an armor ship? The point is that when other people are tackling for you, you use your mids on a shield tank so you can fill your lows with damage mods. I mean, obviously you don't shield tank a 7/3 slot layout ship. That's stupid. You pick shield whenever you have a choice. There's a reason 99% of Ishtars shield tanked when it had the 5/5 slot layout. Armor is bad if you have a choice. The Jaguar and Svipul are both 4/4 and have no specific shield or armor bonuses. They're shield tanked 99%+ of the time. How often do people armor tank Tempests or Naglfars? Quote: Armor fits are perfectly viable. Even in solo pvp. Ive used plated canes, harbs, phoons and other ships before that worked well. For BS, armor fits are great, especially when you have an MJD. Fitting an MJD+prop on a shield fit is a pain. Of course armor fits are viable. There are lots of types of ship that are only available in armor, you don't have the choice to shield tank. The point is that all else being equal, shield is simply better than armor. Every armor tanked ship in the game would be improved if their low and midslot counts were swapped. Again, the only real exception would be battleships against bombers. Yes, a shield ship can fill lows with damage. At the cost of a massive sig and very little to no ewar in your mids. Not to mention TC's are far superior to TE. TCs are often paired with armor doctrines for better range/application. There are tradeoffs with both. Most armor fits can still use 2 dmg mods and fill the rest with tank. Then fill mids with ewar, TC, sebo etc. They also have a considerably smaller sig. Which is useful against bombs, or if your opponents fleet is made of BS and you have HACs. In terms of your 7/3 comment.. cant tell if sarcasm or what. Armor falcon is one example of a "shield" orientated ship that prefers armor so it can fit more EWAR in the mids and still have a tank. Shield alpha muninns also used to be a thing, which were used by n3 a few months back. As well as BL. Muninn is supposed to be more armor orientated. Armors base resists are better than shield, and plates add more raw HP than extenders. Shield fits will never have the EHP of armor fits (excluding capitals). So when you need a damage sponge to get reps to land, or to try and live through alpha, armor will still be better. Infact i remember hellcats (1400 abaddons) being favored over maelstroms for a period of time as well. As they had the tank to survive. Then we also had slowcats which were armor tanked archons. Why no sentry chimera? Ive armor tanked tempests more than ive shield tanked them. Also, i know of a few corps who use armor tanked 1400 pests. Could of sworn PL used armor tempest FI too, but i could be wrong. The nag is shield tanked because its a dread and is a dps role. Its goal is to apply maximum damage when on field. Who cares about its tank. Moros is often armor tanked and is just as popular. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 385	Posted - 2015.10.22 19:09:44 - [361] - Quote What you need to make the barghest good is move 1 utlity slot of the 2 into a midslot, buff sensor strenght a bit (tbh all bs need that) and give it a little but more speed and agility.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 284	Posted - 2015.10.22 19:58:41 - [362] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader. Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it. Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close. You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story. Templar Dane wrote: Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking. There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them. Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB. You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank. This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 880	Posted - 2015.10.22 20:44:39 - [363] - Quote Holy bajeebus this years flue seems to of a nasty straign. So besides the admirable effords of the pharma industry to brute force some flue shots into you fever wasn't of the table this year. Note to self, don't take cough medicine and fever medicine together.. Moving on, mixing drugs seems to have funny side effects. I was just catching up and did read that CCP is going to break their own desing goals right after reaching them for the very frist time. Must have been the fever causing all kinds of misunderstandings. Someone clear this up real quick. Did I really just read that the new design goal of ship progression is now tech one > tech one >>>>>>>> faction >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aww pirate. Wasn't that somewhat different? Oh by the way and while we are at it, can we nerf light guns too? We must end this constant domination of light weapon. I would assume a light reduction of 99.9995% all small railguns, blasters, pulse lasers, beam lasers, autocannons and artillery damage will balance the game. Since it is just a small step all weapon system should be balanced now and we can call it a day. If that doesn't bring balance, let's just remove some more random slots from all ships so that the kids don't need to think about what to put into them. One slot per ship should be okay, so that the ever increasing number of daft folks have it easer. Cancer seems to be the word of 2015. Very popular forms of cancer have been known to cause brain damage. People with brain damage are advised to remove themself from the discussion. Someone explain to me why the Sacrilege needs a bigger dronebay instead of a bigger damage bonus for the lack slot to put a ballistic control in? The Punisher is now punished enough. There is no reason to punish the Punisher even more for being bad. How about a tracking bonus? And how about nerfing pirate faction ships below tech one? Sounds like an almost good idea. Combined with the large missile nerf of the century, the total domination of citadel torpedos has come to an end. Now all the kids in lowsec can undock once again and not fear the sight of a caldari titan. It was too long that the one Leviathan in New Eden was constantly disbanding goonswarm, the drone regions, delve and killing all tech-moon pos's for keeping the moon-poo prices uber-high with no end. This is no rant, it is an observation. You can rent my observations for 3 billion isk per hour. A toast (and the last of my cough medicine for today) to yet another fail attempt of balance brought to you by phar- erm CCP frigate online. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1288	Posted - 2015.10.22 20:45:17 - [364] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: The nag is shield tanked because its a dread and is a dps role. Its goal is to apply maximum damage when on field. Who cares about its tank. Moros is often armor tanked and is just as popular. It's rather that capital shield repairer are a lot more efficient compared to armor ones. Even an Archon, given you want a set amount of cap recharge, tanks better when shieldtanked compared to common armor setup (2 CAR+EANM). If it's supposed to receive reps, armor gangs are usually better - but for local tanked caps, it's all about shields. Active tanked Dreadnoughts (in wormhole space) usually just need to sustain their active tank to the end of the next siege cycle, less than 5 minutes, so going with semiconductors and power diags in the lows together with a full shieldtank, yielding some 30k+ ehp/s with a 5 slot tank+DCU compared to the 16k you'd squeeze out of a dualrep armorfit. Armortanked moros (and nags) for low/null don't have an armor repairer, just two trimarks and resists. If they catch fire, they refit bulkheads and delay their death - especially since armor reps would be insignificant (around 6k before refitting). They save mids for cap boosters, sebos and TCs and unlike 'survive or die' for wormhole caps, it's about the get in, blow load, regain jump cap and extract approach.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 299	Posted - 2015.10.22 21:37:21 - [365] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader. Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it. Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close. You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story. Templar Dane wrote: Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking. There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them. Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB. You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank. This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors I was soloing battlecruisers in a punisher in '06 and am not hiding behind an alt. In the top 200 according to battleclinic, and am an amarr specialist. You aren't going to sig tank a tracking bonused destroyer with battleship agility. Range tank, sure, as I said earlier but that isn't 'sig tanking'.
Arla Sarain 684	Posted - 2015.10.22 21:48:36 - [366] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB. Is the 10MN AB Coercer orbiting at 4000? Cos that's what it's going to take to reduce the statistical chance to hit down to 50% with scorch loaded DLPs. You are talking about range tanking. A Coercer's base signature alone is practically a free 50% tracking bonus to small guns. Don't need EFT for this. DLPs with scorch on a Coercer have 0.38 rad/s tracking. Against a base 62m sig that's almost ~0.6rad/s. Assuming you can turn perfectly (you can't, 10MN AB especially), you'd have to be orbiting at 3400m on an overheated AB to even try to sigtank. Pick a range you say you "sig tank" at and repost.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 284	Posted - 2015.10.22 23:17:33 - [367] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB. Is the 10MN AB Coercer orbiting at 4000? Cos that's what it's going to take to reduce the statistical chance to hit down to 50% with scorch loaded DLPs. I specifically wrote a 10mn AB Coercer versus a SFPL Coercer.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 284	Posted - 2015.10.22 23:19:50 - [368] - Quote And that isn't even a favourable matchup. Other destroyers, like cormorant or thrasher, have much worse tracking if they want to hit you at 20km, because they have to use arties or rails.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 506	Posted - 2015.10.22 23:41:02 - [369] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Seriously? How does having a full drone bay stop the crucifier from being an ewar frigate? how does giving it a full drone bay make it a combat frigate? Are you using your brain? The Arbitrator must be a combat cruiser then, because it has a full drone bay and a damage bonus :( The crucifier is an "electronic warfare" frigate, which, believe it or not, is meant for combat. If it had a full drone bay it would actually be usable for legitimate combat, but right now it's really only good for ewar because it doesn't pose much of a threat to anyone, even other frigates. SO much wrong with this post. Really? i had no idea the ewar frigates were meant for combat. what universe of eve are we playing in? 'right now its(crucifier) only good for ewar because it doesnt pose much of a threat to anyone' Wow you just next leveled me? here i was thinking that ewar frigates and to some extent cruisers were top of the line solo 1v1 wtfbbq eveiseasy most used ships in game for combat. glad you helped me out. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Arla Sarain 685	Posted - 2015.10.22 23:58:55 - [370] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB. Is the 10MN AB Coercer orbiting at 4000? Cos that's what it's going to take to reduce the statistical chance to hit down to 50% with scorch loaded DLPs. I specifically wrote a 10mn AB Coercer versus a SFPL Coercer. So, big difference...? 0.34 rad/s at maximum skills. Even if the Coercer had 40m sig, it would have to orbit at 6000m. With a 10MN AB - not going to happen. Also you are not gaining much from using DLPs over him. You miss about as many shots, for all practical intents, you lose in range. Whilst the absolute loss in range is small, the risk is sliding into your own falloff sooner than he does. You'd screw your own DPS easier than he would considering how punishing falloff is to lasers. Hell, at 9.5km, his chance to hit you with your 62m sig is still 90%. There is like a good 5km window where he can deal full DPS no matter what you do and that is still assuming you lose no speed with the crap agility you get.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 284	Posted - 2015.10.23 00:35:14 - [371] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: SO much wrong with this post. Really? i had no idea the ewar frigates were meant for combat. what universe of eve are we playing in? 'right now its(crucifier) only good for ewar because it doesnt pose much of a threat to anyone' Wow you just next leveled me? here i was thinking that ewar frigates and to some extent cruisers were top of the line solo 1v1 wtfbbq eveiseasy most used ships in game for combat. glad you helped me out. It says it right in the name, electronic WARFARE, and most of them literally get combat related bonuses, like the arbitrator. If the arbitrator could only use 3 medium drones and had no damage bonus it would be where the crucifier is now, useless except for tracking disruptor. But the arbitrator is a good versatile ship for pvp and the crucifier could be too if it had a legitimate drone bay.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 302	Posted - 2015.10.23 01:40:24 - [372] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: SO much wrong with this post. Really? i had no idea the ewar frigates were meant for combat. what universe of eve are we playing in? 'right now its(crucifier) only good for ewar because it doesnt pose much of a threat to anyone' Wow you just next leveled me? here i was thinking that ewar frigates and to some extent cruisers were top of the line solo 1v1 wtfbbq eveiseasy most used ships in game for combat. glad you helped me out. It says it right in the name, electronic WARFARE, and most of them literally get combat related bonuses, like the arbitrator. If the arbitrator could only use 3 medium drones and had no damage bonus it would be where the crucifier is now, useless except for tracking disruptor. But the arbitrator is a good versatile ship for pvp and the crucifier could be too if it had a legitimate drone bay. The tristan is a big enough problem, the last thing we need is another 25m3 bandwidth frigate with a better slot layout running around.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 385	Posted - 2015.10.23 02:35:50 - [373] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader. Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it. Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close. You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story. Templar Dane wrote: Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking. There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them. Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB. You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank. This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors The thing with all the 10mn vs mwd thing is that if the other person turns of his mwd he has the same sig, same transversal, same range but just better fitting and ehp. So unless you fly in such a way that you exploit your smaller guns tracking (which is pretty much impossible for a coercer) the non 10mn fit simply is better. 10mn coercers strenght is not really its sig.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 385	Posted - 2015.10.23 02:40:25 - [374] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader. Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it. Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close. You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story. Templar Dane wrote: Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking. There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them. Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB. You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank. This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors I was soloing battlecruisers in a punisher in '06 and am not hiding behind an alt. In the top 200 according to battleclinic, and am an amarr specialist. You aren't going to sig tank a tracking bonused destroyer with battleship agility. Range tank, sure, as I said earlier but that isn't 'sig tanking'. WOW, you are top 200 on BATTLECLINIC. Thats, ohmygod, can i have your autograph plzz xd xd, and you soooloed battecruisers in punishers in 06, my god that changes everything!!!! Seriously though, bc ranks mean nothing at all, most times the higher ups are actually really bad at pvp and really good at flying lame stuff with implants and links. Stuff like "oh my god im so high on [insert killboard here]" just makes you look like a joke. You are correct though.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 302	Posted - 2015.10.23 02:45:44 - [375] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Rail comet. Harpy. Beam 'sader. Rail comet is actually faster and more agile to begin with, with only one less low. Don't see the warp disruptor comets as often now but I'm sure there are plenty of people that still do it. Harpy can get the projection but nowhere near the mobility. Comet cannot get the same projection or damage, and a significant portion of its damage relies on drones. Beam Sader doesn't even come close. You're wrong, but even if you were right, that's three frigates that are somewhat comparable to the Slicer. It's still one of the best frigates in the game. End of story. Templar Dane wrote: Bonused turret destroyers have a tracking bonus, and weapons with 40m resolution. The agility is battleship level. Range tank sure, but that's not sig tanking. There are few people that understand amarr ships as well as me, and you aren't one of them. Step away from EFT land for a second. Imagine a Coercer vs Coercer fight. one of them is MWD fit with SFPLs and one of them is 10mn AB fit with DLPs. On paper, the SFPL fit has significantly more damage and the same tank, but in application, a lot of his damage isn't applied because of the sig tank of 10mn AB. You can even take out point-less shield fit Coercers, who have WAY more tank and gank than you, purely because of the sig tank. This isn't just speculation. I've been playing this game since 2006 and have access to many accounts. 10mn Coercer has been a powerhouse ever since it got its two mid slots. Sig and speed tank are factors I was soloing battlecruisers in a punisher in '06 and am not hiding behind an alt. In the top 200 according to battleclinic, and am an amarr specialist. You aren't going to sig tank a tracking bonused destroyer with battleship agility. Range tank, sure, as I said earlier but that isn't 'sig tanking'. WOW, you are top 200 on BATTLECLINIC. Thats, ohmygod, can i have your autograph plzz xd xd, and you soooloed battecruisers in punishers in 06, my god that changes everything!!!! Seriously though, bc ranks mean nothing at all, most times the higher ups are actually really bad at pvp and really good at flying lame stuff with implants and links. Stuff like "oh my god im so high on [insert killboard here]" just makes you look like a joke. You are correct though. Better than the other killboards, where whoring on mails gives you just as many points. At least battleclinic rewards you for shipping down and soloing.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2838	Posted - 2015.10.23 03:05:28 - [376] - Quote What i find most amusing is that everyone is arguing about whether the Punisher will do better with ACs or Arty. Two thumbs up on the balance pass, Fozzie. You're doing great work. Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Renfus Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 12	Posted - 2015.10.23 06:01:56 - [377] - Quote LOVE the changes!! Maybe give deep space transport haulers like the bustard immunity to warp disruption fields like interceptors have.. That way one is cov ops/ cloaks and the other a little easier to get through bubbled gates.. Granted a fast point should still be able to tag it.. Also Maybe someone can give the Osprey a facelift one day.. That's easily the ugliest and awkward looking ship in the game.. Ospreys in real life which the ship is named after are big raptors.. pretty badass birds.. The osprey in game should have been named emu instead.. lol Alliance Creation / Corp Update Service available. Contact me In-Game.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 223	Posted - 2015.10.23 07:19:50 - [378] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: What i find most amusing is that everyone is arguing about whether the Punisher will do better with ACs or Arty. Two thumbs up on the balance pass, Fozzie. You're doing great work. Agreed these are good changes, even if some don't go far enough they are all a step in the right direction. The rifter/slasher changes are enough because i think the remaining problems are in the projectiles themselves, specifically the lack of good t2 ammo, not much wrong with the hulls or even the turrets - which are actually good with faction ammo. So over buffing these ships would just make it harder for them to buff small projectile ammo later if they decide to do that. As for the punisher, it got some nice treatment and I like the flexible 5 low slot layout I wouldn't swap it for a rocket ship with 1 less slot, it probably wouldn't even be as good as the breacher so i wouldn't use it anyway. With lasers it has no webs and no range control so i feel like a tracking bonus is pretty much essential to make it viable for solo, but the slot layout should make for some interesting fits. The Navy Osprey will be awesome, good in multiple roles, good with rlml and hams. I feel like the hookbill still lacks fitting resources which locks it into just a few very similar very limited squishy fits that makes it predictable and soft - we'll see how these changes go down, the small dps buff and better selectable damage is welcome but I think it needs a boost to cpu especially now the fleet vigil is coming out and looks so much stronger, and the rail comet is already stronger even at the edge of scram range with better tank/dps. The cancer nerfs are all welcome too but disappointed the Mordu's legion ships still have so many effective bonuses on their hulls. I see the scram/disruptor bonuses as effectively two separate bonuses, the missile speed and range bonus is effectively two bonuses as well. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1153	Posted - 2015.10.23 12:49:20 - [379] - Quote yeah because what the game needs is more fast rlml ships right
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1233	Posted - 2015.10.23 12:49:38 - [380] - Quote perhaps consider reducing the orthrus's shield HP, its tankier than the caracal navy and osprey navy issue, there needs too be more differences between them as they all fill similar roles, also consider removing missile range bonuses from light missiles for the orthrus. Amissile rebalance is much needed here, missile tracking is poor and the new mods along with current ship bonuses aren't sufficient, and light missile track too well leaving RLML's as the main used thing, maybe if HAM's exchange range for tracking they might find more usage along with tracking nerf too light's. orthrus - nerf shield HP too 2400 (slightly better than cynabal) - missile range bonuses only apply too HAM's and heavies Osprey Navy Issue - make it a hybrid boat, there are no caldari navy hybrid ships atm until GNI comes out. - maybe like a navy version of a moa or a falloff blaster boat perhaps. Caracal Navy issue - could use stronger bonuses too be competitive T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1153	Posted - 2015.10.23 14:14:31 - [381] - Quote Harvey James wrote: perhaps consider reducing the orthrus's shield HP, its tankier than the caracal navy and osprey navy issue, there needs too be more differences between them as they all fill similar roles, also consider removing missile range bonuses from light missiles for the orthrus. Amissile rebalance is much needed here, missile tracking is poor and the new mods along with current ship bonuses aren't sufficient, and light missile track too well leaving RLML's as the main used thing, maybe if HAM's exchange range for tracking they might find more usage along with tracking nerf too light's. orthrus - nerf shield HP too 2400 (slightly better than cynabal) - missile range bonuses only apply too HAM's and heavies Osprey Navy Issue - make it a hybrid boat, there are no caldari navy hybrid ships atm until GNI comes out. - maybe like a navy version of a moa or a falloff blaster boat perhaps. Caracal Navy issue - could use stronger bonuses too be competitive remove skirmish links and suddenly missiles are real easy to hit well with. and hp nerf on orthrus isn't going to fix xlasb and crazy fitting. I'd also swap the tackle bonus for +25% to disruptors only, and drop the damage bonus some more and put some of it into rof, the alpha is too high.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 604	Posted - 2015.10.23 14:15:45 - [382] - Quote My thoughts so far on this: t1 frig changes look nice and well-placed, excepting the amarr ships. I will reiterate the position of many people here that the laser capacitor bonus is both a crutch for amarr ships holding them back, and fairly useless on top of it. Here are my thoughts on what should be done for not only the frigates, but the rest of the subcap laser lineup as well (lasers seriously aren't as OP as you keep thinking they are; so use this opportunity to stop the madness finally) -Instead of making the Punisher a special snowflake with an extra slot, consider this: the only thing seriously holding back laser ship usage is that stupid, stupid cap bonus on it. So instead of effectively wasting an entire bonus, why not just increase the capacitor amount/regen by appropriate levels to compensate? Amarr power systems are the most advanced in the cluster by most accounts, and negating most of the cap usage bonuses by increasing their cap regen all around would DEFINITELY fit in with not only the lore, but balanced gameplay as well. a 5% firing rate bonus with 5 low slots and only 3 highs would suit the punisher just fine as long as it was compensated with an appropriate increase in capacitor regeneration. it gives better dps than before and balances it out with being a little cap hungry and more vulnerable with neuts, which is fine if you're giving a frigate 5 low slots to work with. -As for the tormentor, go the same route and do away with the cap bonus and increase the cap regen/amount. Drop the drone bay entirely and give it an optimal range bonus This gives it a CLEAR role as a cheap sniper boat and very favorable ship to use in fleet settings, as well as a capable solo kiter that works as a cheap alternative to the slicer. This gives clear distinctions to each ship for the type of engagements they're good at and a clear route to fit and handle them in. -Even though it's not on the list, the Executioner deserves a mention since it suffers from this cap bonus madness as well. A tracking bonus would be perfectly suitable on the ships as it would fit in well with its high-speed interception role, at long or short ranges. It would also be a good progression into the omen which i'll be talking about in a bit. -The Coercer would be the only one that would be fine with the cap bonus. It uses a full rack of 8 guns so the cap bonus is useful, and a damage bonus would be silly with how much damage it already does. -The Omen is a great example of how to almost get a ship right. Medium lasers are in the best place out of the entire medium weapon lineup so they don't exactly suffer on the omen, but there is still quite a bit of room for improvement here. Thoughts here would be to go the same route with dropping the cap bonus in favor of base capacitor/cap regen increase, and getting a tracking bonus instead. This gives it excellent viability as an attack cruiser, and to compensate we can move the drone bay for the Omen over to the Maller, and drop the drone bay entirely on the Omen since you seem to love drones more on maller-class hulls due to unusual amount of drones you appear to be adding to the Sacrilege for some reason, and the continued lack of a drone bay on the Zealot (consistency is good). The tracking bonus falls in line with Thorax and the Caracal depending on what your thoughts are on missiles. Dropping the drones on the Omen entirely for a tracking bonus is good balance since it still leaves it fairly vulnerable to tracking disruption from frigates, but it will be excellent against smaller ships in the same way RLM caracals are currently. -The Maller is great as a classical tank in any setting, and would only benefit from getting a drone bay. Since we're not likely to see either the Omen or the Maller get a 4th mid slot (as they well shouldn't), it's not to crazy in the least to give it the current 25/40 drone bay the omen enjoys to better defend against frigates. The extra dps should be welcome too. -The Omen navy issue is fairly decent as it stands, but i'm of the firm opinion that it should get a low slot move to a mid slot. The option for an extra web, shield tank, or more tracking comps for sniper build would be invaluable and would line up perfectly with its utility role, making it immensely popular. -Keeping the cap bonuses on the Harbinger and its variants would be absolutely fine as is; the recent changes to battlecruisers with projection and their ample fitting slots makes them perfectly viable as is in the same way the coercer is set up. -For the Armageddon Navy issue, go the whole 9 yards and swap that useless capacitor bonus out for a drone damage and HP bonus. You can even keep the current cap levels to make it more vulnerable to neuts, but I am DEFINITELY of the opinion that the cap bonus needs to go away. The drones would give it immense strength as a solo or small gang ship, and the raw dps and application potential would make it the lone wolf alternative to the pack mentality the Apoc navy enjoys. Screw anyone who thinks otherwise; the minmatar and caldari navy faction ships are IMMENSELY powerful, and this would really only be bringing them in line with the rest of the bunch. Thus ends my amarr-specific rant.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1153	Posted - 2015.10.23 14:30:18 - [383] - Quote yeah or just keep the cap bonus and increase the damage to compensate instead. or do nothing instead because everything is fine. amusing how everyone's mad about this cap bonus, but so many cap bonus amarr ships are good.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 604	Posted - 2015.10.23 14:57:16 - [384] - Quote Thoughts on caldari ships here: -Great job on the Osprey navy issue, but you completely forgot about what's wrong with the Hookbill (extra dps is going to be nice, no problem there). The hookbill remains fairly cripplied by its poor fitting options, and is subsequently locked into using rockets if it wants to support anything resembling an effective tank (or having enough room to effectively use all its mid slots without loading up on fitting mods and rigs, which is remarkably difficult to do compared to its counterparts). an extra 10 base powergrid and 15 CPU would be absolutely perfect, as it would allow for full light missile usability WITH tank, and without having to rely on all those extra fitting mods and rigs for a crutch. -Please swap out the Kestrel's damage bonus for a firing rate bonus. It would be more in line with progression, and it needs the extra dps to be competitive. Thank you. -The Corax suffers from the same crippling lack of fitting space as the hookbill. Going with the same +10 PG and +15 CPU would put it in a very strong position, making it competitive with the Thrasher and Coercer. I would also like to take a moment to talk about your outlook on destroyers at the moment, because giving them a little love here would be perfect for all these balance passes you're making, and put a stronger clamp down on the power creep and kite meta with frigates that's been going on. Give ALL destroyers (except t3) an extra fitting slot. This ensures their strength over frigates as being their natural predator, and actually falls in line with what i'm assuming you were planning on doing anyway during your release of the new t1 destroyers a few years back, as indicated by the models. Here's how it goes: Catalyst and Eris get an extra mid slot; Cormorant gets an extra mid, Flycatcher gets an extra low; Coercer and Heretic get extra low slots, as do the Thrasher and Sabre. This gives them all a straight upgrade in power, and with most of them they already have decent enough fitting space to take advantage of that without too much trouble (minus the corax, which would be getting the extra fitting as previously outlined). -Giving the Caracal Navy Issue a bit stronger capacitor and more fitting space would be ideal; it struggles somewhat to fit a tank on top of all those missile launchers, so giving it abundant fitting space and capacitor would make an extremely solid combat craft for a variety of situations. -To be honest, the Moa kind of sucks as a pvp boat right now. Hybrids have either poor range or poor tracking, so while it can do fantastic dps as a blaster brawler and makes a solid fleet sniper, it is still extremely vulnerable to frigates in either setting. Giving it a full flight of light drones would be excellent (although admittedly unorthodox) for a caldari cruiser, as the only real alternative to improving upon it would be dropping the shield resist bonus for an optimal range bonus, which is not ideal anyway you turn it. -The Crow and Raptor could use some love. The Raptor needs some serious help in the capacitor department, and the Crow's fitting space is abysmal. Other than that, their bonuses and slots are fine. -I am still of the firm opinion that caldari ewar ships (and ewar ships in general) should get a solid combat bonus. While the frigates should maintain good range projection and mobility, I think there's room for making the t1 electronic warfare ships in this game a little more capable. Drop the range bonuses on the Blackbird and Scorpion, and increase base ECM range by 50%, then give them both 10% kinetic damage bonuses to size-appropriate missiles per level as well Giving them a full rack of missile launchers (dropping the turrets slots) and some more drones to round them out. We can all agree ecm needs to be fixed, but what i want to focus on and expound as necessary is making ALL the cruiser-up size electronic warfare ships combat capable in the same way the amarr and minmatar ones are. Plus I think the Blackbird and Scorpion would be pretty damn cool as combat ships in their own right. -Move a low from the Rokh to a mid slot. TBH the only thing that would really change if need be for most people would be a tracking enhancer for a tracking comp, and a lot of people would benefit IMMENSELY from having 7 mid slots on the rokh in the same way the Raven did when it saw its balance pass. Giving it an even stronger potential for a brick tank in pvp would help it remain competitive as well.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 604	Posted - 2015.10.23 14:59:20 - [385] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah or just keep the cap bonus and increase the damage to compensate instead. or do nothing instead because everything is fine. amusing how everyone's mad about this cap bonus, but so many cap bonus amarr ships are good. Lasers are comparitively good, so they can get away with wasting a bonus on them.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 232	Posted - 2015.10.23 15:27:12 - [386] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah or just keep the cap bonus and increase the damage to compensate instead. or do nothing instead because everything is fine. amusing how everyone's mad about this cap bonus, but so many cap bonus amarr ships are good. How many of those cap bonus ships also don't have a tracking or dmg bonus also? redeemer , absolution, coercer, omen, revelation, tormentor, executioner, zealot,devoter,crusader,confessor,armageddon navy, oracle, harbinger, retribution. All the ships listed above have the cap bonus and either a tracking or dmg bonus also. punisher will be the only ship that has a cap use bonus and not a dmg bonus or tracking bonus.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1153	Posted - 2015.10.23 15:28:55 - [387] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah or just keep the cap bonus and increase the damage to compensate instead. or do nothing instead because everything is fine. amusing how everyone's mad about this cap bonus, but so many cap bonus amarr ships are good. How many of those cap bonus ships also don't have a tracking or dmg bonus also? redeemer , absolution, coercer, omen, revelation, tormentor, executioner, zealot,devoter,crusader,confessor,armageddon navy, oracle, harbinger, retribution. All the ships listed above have the cap bonus and either a tracking or dmg bonus also. punisher will be the only ship that has a cap use bonus and not a dmg bonus or tracking bonus. so? it has 4 guns.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1233	Posted - 2015.10.23 15:47:11 - [388] - Quote i think the only reason an amarr laser boat should have the cap bonus is when they have a full set of turrets in the highs and has a strong application bonus, plus a good dronebay. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 233	Posted - 2015.10.23 15:50:19 - [389] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Lady Rift wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah or just keep the cap bonus and increase the damage to compensate instead. or do nothing instead because everything is fine. amusing how everyone's mad about this cap bonus, but so many cap bonus amarr ships are good. How many of those cap bonus ships also don't have a tracking or dmg bonus also? redeemer , absolution, coercer, omen, revelation, tormentor, executioner, zealot,devoter,crusader,confessor,armageddon navy, oracle, harbinger, retribution. All the ships listed above have the cap bonus and either a tracking or dmg bonus also. punisher will be the only ship that has a cap use bonus and not a dmg bonus or tracking bonus. so? it has 4 guns. it has 4 guns for projectiles for no cap use or hybrids for more damage with less cap cost than lasers (even with the cap bonus) . while all other options less power grid than lasers (beam or pulse). theres no reason to fit lasers to it
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 604	Posted - 2015.10.23 15:51:25 - [390] - Quote Thoughts on Gallente ships here: -Tristan speed reduction was needed, but the tracking bonus is weird with only 2 guns. Maybe you could give the tracking bonus over to the Incursus, and give the repair bonus to the Tristan, along with a 3rd turret, or drop a high for a low? Blasters don't exactly need help in the tracking department, and the tracking speed would be better suited on one of the other frigates as a rail platform. -The Atron really doesn't need a falloff bonus, as it does absolutely nothing for railguns. I'd say give it a tracking speed bonus, as it would help with close-range fights just as well as kiting with rails; the Taranis and Comet are a good example of how to make tracking speed bonuses work considering how well they work with railguns. -The Incursus would probably benefit from an optimal range bonus and a little extra speed, in place of the slower, tankier setup we currently see. A single optimal range bonus would help it out a lot in fleet settings as it has ample low slots for a variety of tasks, and the rep bonus forces people to choose between a cap booster or a webifier in the mid, which so often ends badly for blaster boats in solo fights if they don't fit the web. The repair bonus would just work so much better on the Tristan, and a long-range rail sniper would be very good, and consistent with its AF counterparts. -The Ares is in a bit of a rough spot without its damage bonus, but it doesn't exactly need one in the same way the Taranis does tbh. I'd say take the two drones off of the Taranis and give it to the Ares, and move a low from the Ares into a high along with an extra turret slot. This puts them more in-line roughly with dps, but gives the Ares a more clear role with kiting and railguns, and the Taranis with close-range blasters as per Duvolle tradition. -As stated in the previous post with caldari ships, the Catalyst kind of needs an extra slot, and that would go into the mid. Barring that, I'd say drop 2 turrets and a high slot, and give it the mid slot it needs. Giving it a damage bonus instead of falloff would be more than adequate, and its utility high slot would open up a lot of fun options, as would having 3 mids and 3 lows like the algos (which doesn't need any help in the slightest right now). Before I get into cruisers for gallente (and subsequently minmatar in the next post), i'd like to lay out something i think was strangely missing from the cruiser lineup for minmatar and gallente: tanking bonuses for t1. Amarr and Caldari enjoy resist bonuses, and gallente and minmatar enjoy local repair bonuses. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for these at all as long as they're appropriately compensated for, which they would be with losing a combat bonus for a tanking one. -As per my previous post in the Caldari bit about wanting full combat viability with ewar ships cruiser and up, i'd like to give the Celestis a drone damage and HP bonus, as we see with the Arbitrator. I think removing the range bonus in favor of this would be fine as long as they introduced lowslot modules for increasing effective range for ECM, Damps, TDs, and Target Painters. Having a holistic approach to EWAR in the same way we do weapons now would be appropriate, and with the state ewar balance is in right now, a safe place to be would be buffing the base t1 ships by giving the option to CHOOSE between a stronger combat or fleet EWAR support role. Range modules for them would help with that immensely i think, as it would help mitigate the lost range from the Blackbird and Celestis in favor of their combat bonuses, as well as give them and others better fleet options. So a damp strength bonus and a 10% bonus to drone HP and damage with a 75/125 drone bay would be appropriate i believe. -I think the Vexor should drop its hybrid damage bonus in favor of an armor repair bonus. This would let it run pretty much like a pocket Myrmidon, and give it good survivability as the solo ship it currently enjoys being favored as, while trading off dps. -Move the repair bonus on the Deimos to the Ishtar, replacing the Ishtar's sentry drone optimal range and tracking speed bonus for a repair bonus. You can even give sentries the 10% damage and hp amount they had before if it makes you feel better. -Replace the Deimos' repair bonus for tracking speed, same as the Thorax. -Myrmidon gets 125mbit drone bandwidth so it can use a full flight of heavies. It doesn't exactly NEED it, but it's floundering a bit after the bc balance pass and losing its 6th turret back in the day. -Increase the base PG of the Brutix and Brutix Navy Issue -Dominix navy issue should get the same bonuses as the t1 domi gets, except with more drone space. The slot layout more than makes up for it. -For both the Megathron and Megathron Navy issue, drop a turret and change the firing rate bonus to 10% damage per level. You get two utility highs out of the mega navy issue WITH the the tracking bonus intact, meaning you can seriously ruin someone's day if you're rolling with 2 neuts on top of it. The utility would be very important to consider. -For the Hyperion, give all those drones back to the megathron. It was fine before.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1153	Posted - 2015.10.23 15:55:20 - [391] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Lady Rift wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah or just keep the cap bonus and increase the damage to compensate instead. or do nothing instead because everything is fine. amusing how everyone's mad about this cap bonus, but so many cap bonus amarr ships are good. How many of those cap bonus ships also don't have a tracking or dmg bonus also? redeemer , absolution, coercer, omen, revelation, tormentor, executioner, zealot,devoter,crusader,confessor,armageddon navy, oracle, harbinger, retribution. All the ships listed above have the cap bonus and either a tracking or dmg bonus also. punisher will be the only ship that has a cap use bonus and not a dmg bonus or tracking bonus. so? it has 4 guns. it has 4 guns for projectiles for no cap use or hybrids for more damage with less cap cost than lasers (even with the cap bonus) . while all other options less power grid than lasers (beam or pulse). theres no reason to fit lasers to it yeah no reason if you don't care about damage. I look forward to killing all these shitfit punishers.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 233	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:02:05 - [392] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Lady Rift wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Lady Rift wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: yeah or just keep the cap bonus and increase the damage to compensate instead. or do nothing instead because everything is fine. amusing how everyone's mad about this cap bonus, but so many cap bonus amarr ships are good. How many of those cap bonus ships also don't have a tracking or dmg bonus also? redeemer , absolution, coercer, omen, revelation, tormentor, executioner, zealot,devoter,crusader,confessor,armageddon navy, oracle, harbinger, retribution. All the ships listed above have the cap bonus and either a tracking or dmg bonus also. punisher will be the only ship that has a cap use bonus and not a dmg bonus or tracking bonus. so? it has 4 guns. it has 4 guns for projectiles for no cap use or hybrids for more damage with less cap cost than lasers (even with the cap bonus) . while all other options less power grid than lasers (beam or pulse). theres no reason to fit lasers to it yeah no reason if you don't care about damage. I look forward to killing all these shitfit punishers. other the the fact that laser dont do more dmg. they are in the middle. of the pack. this is going back to the old punisher where it was a better boat with ac's on it.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 604	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:13:23 - [393] - Quote My thoughts on Minmatar ships: Excellent work on the frigates here; can't fault a single thing especially with the extra space for rifter and slasher. -Going to mention the Claw and Stiletto here because they need some serious love, though. Claw needs to lose the high slot for a mid, because it's an interceptor that should NOT have to suffer 2 mid-slot syndrome. Just that extra mid will help it out, and be all it needs tbh. The Stiletto needs an extra turret slot (why it only has 2 i have no idea), and its damage bonus traded off for a more appealing RoF bonus. -As mentioned previously the Sabre would be hopefully be getting an extra low slot. Barring that...it's fine, really. Great ship for solo/small gang. -Stabber would be getting a fair bit of a rework. Continuing the line of the Breacher, Cyclone and Maelstrom, the Stabber should get its falloff bonus replaced with a Shield Boost amount bonus, making it a VERY attractive skirmisher. I'd like to retain the slot layout as-is since it does fairly well currently in most departments, and leaving those utility highs open leaves for a pretty fair amount of flexibility. A moderate increase in cpu and powergrid would be appreciated, although not necessary. -Vagabond should lose a low slot for a mid slot. It really needs to take full advantage of its shield tank, and as a HAC it's a shadow of its former glory compared to a lot of the other cruisers out there. -Rupture should gain an extra turret, and trade the RoF bonus for the Stabber's 10% med projectile falloff bonus per level. This puts it in a solid role as a fleet sniper as per its desctiption, and gives good viability to autocannons and arty alike. -Hurricane should have a similar setup as the HFI, with 10% med projectile damage but 7.5% tracking speed per level. Double damage bonuses are nice but damage application is more important with projectiles. -Go the same route with bonuses to the Tempest and Tempest fleet issue as the Hurricane and HFI. This time, however, give them each an extra turret slot to compensate for the lost dps. Tempest Fleet Issue with 10% damage and tracking speed per level with 7 turrets would be the be-all end-all for alpha fleets, as well as a fierce contender for solo roaming as well.
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1289	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:18:04 - [394] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: it has 4 guns for projectiles for no cap use or hybrids for more damage with less cap cost than lasers (even with the cap bonus) . while all other options less power grid than lasers (beam or pulse). theres no reason to fit lasers to it First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch! The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly. Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 605	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:28:49 - [395] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: Lady Rift wrote: it has 4 guns for projectiles for no cap use or hybrids for more damage with less cap cost than lasers (even with the cap bonus) . while all other options less power grid than lasers (beam or pulse). theres no reason to fit lasers to it First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch! The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly. Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you. How would you feel about a 3/2/5 slot setup with a firing rate bonus and extra capacitor?
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 611	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:39:02 - [396] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: Lady Rift wrote: it has 4 guns for projectiles for no cap use or hybrids for more damage with less cap cost than lasers (even with the cap bonus) . while all other options less power grid than lasers (beam or pulse). theres no reason to fit lasers to it First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch! The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly. Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you. Not to mention a 10mn beam punisher will take advantage of that cap bonus and still have good projection/damage. With a 10mn AB speed is around 2.1k cold before speed mods. Even if you are webbed, you are still faster than a frigate with a web/ab, especially if you OH when they burn in. Use beams to have consistent damage while you burn away and then be out of range of their damage. Dual web firetails may be a problem, but you will have similar projection as them with a better tank. Overall the punisher changes are promising. Should be interesting. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1289	Posted - 2015.10.23 17:01:29 - [397] - Quote [Punisher, 10mn] F85 Peripheral Damage System I Small Ancillary Armor Repairer Nanofiber Internal Structure II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Faint Warp Disruptor I Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I 160dps in scramrange, 105dps to pointrange, goes 2.3km/s (3.2 OH)... Aligns like a linked tengu, can live with that.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 611	Posted - 2015.10.23 17:20:55 - [398] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: [Punisher, 10mn] F85 Peripheral Damage System I Small Ancillary Armor Repairer Nanofiber Internal Structure II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Faint Warp Disruptor I Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard S Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I 160dps in scramrange, 105dps to pointrange, goes 2.3km/s (3.2 OH)... Aligns like a linked tengu, can live with that. Yep. I tinkered with em a bit before. Not bad back then, but this buff will help quite a bit. 10mn retribution is fun too. As you get the optimal/tracking to go along with it. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1233	Posted - 2015.10.23 17:40:54 - [399] - Quote @ catherine laarti , the stabber would become missile/shield boost rather than stay projectile i would imagine as unbonused projectile/shield boost would just become really poor vaga, rather than its current role as a cheap/lower skilled vaga, although really the vaga should get a speed nerf too follow the point of HAC's being slower than attack cruisers but more resilient. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 304	Posted - 2015.10.23 18:49:44 - [400] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch! People using blasters/autos will just get under the pulse lasers in that situation. Lloyd Roses wrote: The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly. If you're in falloff, which you will be most of the time, the rifter has a 50% falloff bonus. Even with guns two sizes smaller than the punisher the rifter outdamages the punisher starting at 5500m with short range ammo and 8500m with barrage. Punisher's dps with short range ammo doesn't matter too much against frigates because if you're missing every shot your paper dps isn't going to matter. Lloyd Roses wrote: Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you. A web equates to 120% better tracking, ignoring the extra effective tracking from relative speeds (which makes it WAY better than 120%). To track a target well you can...... 1. Slow the target down 2. Be faster or same speed as target 3. Increase the tracking of your guns Relative speed to the target is extremely important. If you start off in a slow ship, with no web, and are then yourself webbed....having the worst tracking guns is a big issue. Gatling pulse lasers, the smallest pulse laser, track worse than light neutron blasters and 200mm autocannons. That's how bad the tracking is. Scorch is the only real advantage pulse lasers have, and if a ship has no way to exploit it's superior range, and has the tracking achilles heel....why even use the ship or the weapons in the first place? Balance is always an issue. Lasers having weaknesses give them flavor and help balance the game out, but the punisher is a case of the perfect storm of bullshit. For eons now it's been nothing more than a potential kill that just takes a greater expenditure of ammo to kill. It was my first ride and I have great memories of the early days, hunting big game in one. Hell I even miss the garbage laser vengeance that made up for being trash with an overpowered nos and a 90% web.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2015.10.23 19:34:07 - [401] - Quote I keep hearing that the Punisher has tracking issues and can't hit frigates. I'm flying a Tormentor with pulse and it has no tracking bonus either. I do not use a stasis webifier. I have no issue landing hits unless I am zooming past a target at point blank range whose trajectory is parallel and opposite to mine. In those situations it's one or two misses before hit start to land hits again. This is the case even with the afterburner going with multifrequency at 2 to 3.6km range. Or even if I simply orbit instead of manual piloting. Is there is different tracking calculation for PVP as opposed to PVE? Or are these comments in relation to beam turrets only?
Alek Row Silent Step 55	Posted - 2015.10.23 19:38:41 - [402] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Excellent work on the frigates here; can't fault a single thing especially with the extra space for rifter and slasher. Is this for real? At the present you need 2 rigs to be able to fit 280mm, after the changes, you will need... 2 rigs. Yes, it will be easier to fit a nos or a neut or to brick it, but not to have a good arty fit. +3 is still better than +1 pg though: impossible to forget that awesome buff. So so many iterations: +1 pg, speed buff, plate mass, small acs, tracking switched to falloff, and now +3pg. It is sad but oh well, maybe next time. I don't like the idea of opening up a door by making the punisher having one more slot than all the rest, punisher needs help for sure, more than all others, but I really dislike the approach. Also, breacher and tormentor do not need buffs. To be honest I really can't agree with most of your ideas, but everybody is free to have them.
Skyler Hawk Boars on Parade The Tuskers Co. 51	Posted - 2015.10.23 19:44:17 - [403] - Quote I think my favourite aspect of the proposed rifter and punisher balance changes is that the Punisher is now a more effective small artillery platform (4 turrets, loads of fitting space, can easily do an MWD/longpoint kiting fit) than the Rifter (hideous fitting issues and only 3.75 effective turrets).
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 611	Posted - 2015.10.23 19:47:08 - [404] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Lloyd Roses wrote: First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch! People using blasters/autos will just get under the pulse lasers in that situation. Lloyd Roses wrote: The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly. If you're in falloff, which you will be most of the time, the rifter has a 50% falloff bonus. Even with guns two sizes smaller than the punisher the rifter outdamages the punisher starting at 5500m with short range ammo and 8500m with barrage. Punisher's dps with short range ammo doesn't matter too much against frigates because if you're missing every shot your paper dps isn't going to matter. Lloyd Roses wrote: Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you. A web equates to 120% better tracking, ignoring the extra effective tracking from relative speeds (which makes it WAY better than 120%). To track a target well you can...... 1. Slow the target down 2. Be faster or same speed as target 3. Increase the tracking of your guns Relative speed to the target is extremely important. If you start off in a slow ship, with no web, and are then yourself webbed....having the worst tracking guns is a big issue. Gatling pulse lasers, the smallest pulse laser, track worse than light neutron blasters and 200mm autocannons. That's how bad the tracking is. Scorch is the only real advantage pulse lasers have, and if a ship has no way to exploit it's superior range, and has the tracking achilles heel....why even use the ship or the weapons in the first place? Balance is always an issue. Lasers having weaknesses give them flavor and help balance the game out, but the punisher is a case of the perfect storm of bullshit. For eons now it's been nothing more than a potential kill that just takes a greater expenditure of ammo to kill. It was my first ride and I have great memories of the early days, hunting big game in one. Hell I even miss the garbage laser vengeance that made up for being trash with an overpowered nos and a 90% web. Not if theyre fit with 10mn. Scram will stall out mwd fits and you can effectively scram kite. Making the lasers the best candidate. Beams also exist, and beam punisher will outdamage a rifter in pretty much any scenario. Even webbed, a 10mn punisher will go 800ish m/s. If you OH you will be as fast if not faster than most AB frigs, allowing range dictation w/o web. The other thing you keep forgetting, is not every frigate wants to brawl you. Some want to kite. As ive mentioned previously the punisher (when not weighed down by a 400mm plate) is faster and more agile than a kite tristan. It also just happens to have the damage profile best suited at killing them too. Scram/mwd, pulse lasers and a nano should be more than enough to slingshot and murder a kite tristan. So that is 2 fits that will work for the intended role. Want a brawler? 10mn beam or scorch pulse. Or anti-kiter with nano/mwd and pulses. Yes the anti kiter will die if tackled by a brawler, but this isnt limited to only the punisher. Any kiter will die when tackled. Same as the brawler, it might die to a kiter. Again this isnt limited to just a punisher. Thorax die to plenty of kiters. Same as incursus and plenty of other fits. You cannot have a one fit kills all, unless you are the favored gallente master race. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 386	Posted - 2015.10.23 19:50:04 - [405] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Lloyd Roses wrote: First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch! People using blasters/autos will just get under the pulse lasers in that situation. Lloyd Roses wrote: The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly. If you're in falloff, which you will be most of the time, the rifter has a 50% falloff bonus. Even with guns two sizes smaller than the punisher the rifter outdamages the punisher starting at 5500m with short range ammo and 8500m with barrage. Punisher's dps with short range ammo doesn't matter too much against frigates because if you're missing every shot your paper dps isn't going to matter. Lloyd Roses wrote: Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you. A web equates to 120% better tracking, ignoring the extra effective tracking from relative speeds (which makes it WAY better than 120%). To track a target well you can...... 1. Slow the target down 2. Be faster or same speed as target 3. Increase the tracking of your guns Relative speed to the target is extremely important. If you start off in a slow ship, with no web, and are then yourself webbed....having the worst tracking guns is a big issue. Gatling pulse lasers, the smallest pulse laser, track worse than light neutron blasters and 200mm autocannons. That's how bad the tracking is. Scorch is the only real advantage pulse lasers have, and if a ship has no way to exploit it's superior range, and has the tracking achilles heel....why even use the ship or the weapons in the first place? Balance is always an issue. Lasers having weaknesses give them flavor and help balance the game out, but the punisher is a case of the perfect storm of bullshit. For eons now it's been nothing more than a potential kill that just takes a greater expenditure of ammo to kill. It was my first ride and I have great memories of the early days, hunting big game in one. Hell I even miss the garbage laser vengeance that made up for being trash with an overpowered nos and a 90% web. Yeah, this. Also, people i think look at the punisher the wrong way, its not a better tormentor, it is however a t1 slicer. [Punisher, new] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Co-Processor II 5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Small Energy Locus Coordinator I 1min 44 of cap i think (capstable without point), 160dps preheat at 19km (188 with heat), 3.49km/s preheat, 3.3 sec agility. Very low ehp but i think you can get a saar on for a nano if you wanted to (not to sure). Its not that great, but it is viable.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 220	Posted - 2015.10.23 20:14:34 - [406] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Also, people i think look at the punisher the wrong way, its not a better tormentor, it is however a t1 slicer. [Punisher, new] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Co-Processor II 5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray S Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Small Energy Locus Coordinator I 1min 44 of cap i think (capstable without point), 160dps preheat at 19km (188 with heat), 3.49km/s preheat, 3.3 sec agility. Very low ehp but i think you can get a saar on for a nano if you wanted to (not to sure). Its not that great, but it is viable. how will you be doing 160 dps at the edge of your falloff? (optimal with x-rays is 15km)
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 304	Posted - 2015.10.23 20:29:20 - [407] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Not if theyre fit with 10mn. Scram will stall out mwd fits and you can effectively scram kite. Making the lasers the best candidate. Beams also exist, and beam punisher will outdamage a rifter in pretty much any scenario. Even webbed, a 10mn punisher will go 800ish m/s. If you OH you will be as fast if not faster than most AB frigs, allowing range dictation w/o web. The other thing you keep forgetting, is not every frigate wants to brawl you. Some want to kite. As ive mentioned previously the punisher (when not weighed down by a 400mm plate) is faster and more agile than a kite tristan. It also just happens to have the damage profile best suited at killing them too. Scram/mwd, pulse lasers and a nano should be more than enough to slingshot and murder a kite tristan. So that is 2 fits that will work for the intended role. Want a brawler? 10mn beam or scorch pulse. Or anti-kiter with nano/mwd and pulses. Yes the anti kiter will die if tackled by a brawler, but this isnt limited to only the punisher. Any kiter will die when tackled. Same as the brawler, it might die to a kiter. Again this isnt limited to just a punisher. Thorax die to plenty of kiters. Same as incursus and plenty of other fits. You cannot have a one fit kills all, unless you are the favored gallente master race. 10mn punisher with battleship agility. 20-25 seconds to get up to that "800ish m/s" top speed, with no buffer. A target could get away simply by changing direction, and the punisher would straight up lose to just about anything if the punisher was using it's 10mn ab to just approach. Tormentor doesn't have this problem because it can just fit a web, so it's better at brawling. Tormentor has the same agility and is only 2m/s slower than a similarly fit punisher, with the option of being injected and having a dual rep tank OR shield extender/ASB as well as having two drones. The better ship for catching kiters. 3.75 effective turrets + 2 drones > 4 effective turrets extra mid > extra low The tormentor is the better ship and these upcoming changes to the punisher won't change that.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 612	Posted - 2015.10.23 20:47:25 - [408] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: Not if theyre fit with 10mn. Scram will stall out mwd fits and you can effectively scram kite. Making the lasers the best candidate. Beams also exist, and beam punisher will outdamage a rifter in pretty much any scenario. Even webbed, a 10mn punisher will go 800ish m/s. If you OH you will be as fast if not faster than most AB frigs, allowing range dictation w/o web. The other thing you keep forgetting, is not every frigate wants to brawl you. Some want to kite. As ive mentioned previously the punisher (when not weighed down by a 400mm plate) is faster and more agile than a kite tristan. It also just happens to have the damage profile best suited at killing them too. Scram/mwd, pulse lasers and a nano should be more than enough to slingshot and murder a kite tristan. So that is 2 fits that will work for the intended role. Want a brawler? 10mn beam or scorch pulse. Or anti-kiter with nano/mwd and pulses. Yes the anti kiter will die if tackled by a brawler, but this isnt limited to only the punisher. Any kiter will die when tackled. Same as the brawler, it might die to a kiter. Again this isnt limited to just a punisher. Thorax die to plenty of kiters. Same as incursus and plenty of other fits. You cannot have a one fit kills all, unless you are the favored gallente master race. 10mn punisher with battleship agility. 20-25 seconds to get up to that "800ish m/s" top speed, with no buffer. A target could get away simply by changing direction, and the punisher would straight up lose to just about anything if the punisher was using it's 10mn ab to just approach. Tormentor doesn't have this problem because it can just fit a web, so it's better at brawling. Tormentor has the same agility and is only 2m/s slower than a similarly fit punisher, with the option of being injected and having a dual rep tank OR shield extender/ASB as well as having two drones. The better ship for catching kiters. 3.75 effective turrets + 2 drones > 4 effective turrets extra mid > extra low The tormentor is the better ship and these upcoming changes to the punisher won't change that. Actually 13s to get to 2.2k/s under no web. Far from BS agility. Torm doesnt have the tank. Punisher has a free eanm which will help reps land. Cap bonus will help too. Drones can be killed, then torm has less dps. Again, ive given 2 fits that will/have worked plus gang settings where it work. Just sounds like you want another 3 mid laser ship where one isnt needed. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 304	Posted - 2015.10.23 21:51:09 - [409] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Actually 13s to get to 2.2k/s under no web. Far from BS agility. 16.8 seconds with just the AB fitted. Looks like you're nanoing up your brawler and counting in skirmish links. Don't forget your nomad implants. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Torm doesnt have the tank. Punisher has a free eanm which will help reps land. Cap bonus will help too. Tormentor has same shield, same armor, 60 something less hull. 20% resist bonus on armor for the punisher. If you aren't fitting a plate on any of your fits, that isn't much of a difference. Especially considering the tormentor can do a shield tank as well as the option on injector + dual rep. The punisher has a marginal advantage in capacitor compared to the tormentor, but the tormentor has the same cap bonus and only 3 guns to feed. Plus that magical extra mid which can be an injector. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Drones can be killed, then torm has less dps. Well if the enemy is taking time to shoot the tormentor's drones, that's pretty much the tormentor gaining tank. Also, tormentor is getting an extra flight of drones for it's dronebay. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Again, ive given 2 fits that will/have worked plus gang settings where it work. And I'll say it again. The tormentor does everything the punisher does and does it better, with the exception of pure buffer. Oversize AB fits are a joke for solo because the agility is crap and it won't work for gang because you have no buffer so you'll die long before you get up to your top speed. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Just sounds like you want another 3 mid laser ship where one isnt needed. I don't want the punisher to keep being a worse tormentor in practically every way. The proposed changes aren't going to make a difference. If it were changed into a drone/rocket boat, at least it would be different and stand out from the current line up, instead of just being a bad tormentor.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 386	Posted - 2015.10.23 22:06:55 - [410] - Quote They shoul just give the punisher a optimal bonus with its cap bonus and throw away the useless armor one, make it a even better t1 slicer with pulse lazors and dont force it into beams.
Nixon Bum Dont Fly On An Empty Stomach 2	Posted - 2015.10.24 00:31:37 - [411] - Quote Nooooo leave drone boats alone, you maniac, leave them alone :'(
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 612	Posted - 2015.10.24 03:58:33 - [412] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: 16.8 seconds with just the AB fitted. Looks like you're nanoing up your brawler and counting in skirmish links. Don't forget your nomad implants. Plz. For such an expert amarr pilot you should know that oversized props need an agility mod somewhere. With nano, its 14.2s, so the fitting app on my phone was dated which was showing 13s. Still far less than BS agility and the over exaggerated 25s you're claiming. And no, i don't use implants/links/alts when i solo PvP. http://imgur.com/PFgccua To answer something you mentioned about autocannons and rifters having better projection. Here is the 10mn punisher and a 200mm dual ambit rig rifter. Punisher beat its out at edge of scram range, which is all that matters really. Punisher has better tank, better dps, better range and still has range control if webbed. As its only 200m/s slower than non webbed rifter. Using OH will allow you to pull range and get hits in. Yes if the rifter pilot also uses OH he can keep up, but this requires knowledge/skill/proper overview to pull off. So its not quite so one sided as a 1mn punisher vs a 1mn rifter. Templar Dane wrote: Tormentor has same shield, same armor, 60 something less hull. 20% resist bonus on armor for the punisher. If you aren't fitting a plate on any of your fits, that isn't much of a difference. Especially considering the tormentor can do a shield tank as well as the option on injector + dual rep. The punisher has a marginal advantage in capacitor compared to the tormentor, but the tormentor has the same cap bonus and only 3 guns to feed. Plus that magical extra mid which can be an injector. 20% isnt a big difference? Ok. Its having a free resist mod, meaning its easier for me to use a nano on the 10mn fit. I don't need to use a nano plating, its built into the hull. Now with having a 5th low, i can now put in a nano plating for more tank, same speed/agility. Or use a cap relay if cap is a concern. The punisher does better in armor gangs with logi than a shield tormentor gang with shield logi. Your point? The ships serve different roles/specialties. Punishers with logi will beat tormentors with logi. They function better in a gang format, and the tormentor is better as a solo/skirmish ship. Templar Dane wrote: And I'll say it again. The tormentor does everything the punisher does and does it better, with the exception of pure buffer. Oversize AB fits are a joke for solo because the agility is crap and it won't work for gang because you have no buffer so you'll die long before you get up to your top speed. tormentor has considerably less PG. So buffer is one issue. But it can't use 10mn fits, which is debatable if thats a good or bad thing. However, you claiming oversized AB are a joke are sadly mistaken. When used properly with decent fits they work very well in a solo environment. Theres more to oversized fits than agility, and its the ability to get out of scram range and kill tackle easily. I've even used 100mn battlecruisers, which have killed linked worms, succubus, svipuls etc. I've used 10mn retributions to scram kite kestrels and other frigs with webs. I've even used 10mn punishers. There are downfalls to using it yes, but if you know what you're doing it can be managed. Templar Dane wrote: If it were changed into a drone/rocket boat, at least it would be different and stand out from the current line up, instead of just being a bad tormentor. Then why don't you start saying that instead of persisting on the 2 mid syndrome. All i've seen is complaining about having 2 mids, and how it doesn't have range or range control. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 605	Posted - 2015.10.24 04:59:48 - [413] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Templar Dane wrote: 16.8 seconds with just the AB fitted. Looks like you're nanoing up your brawler and counting in skirmish links. Don't forget your nomad implants. Plz. For such an expert amarr pilot you should know that oversized props need an agility mod somewhere. With nano, its 14.2s, so the fitting app on my phone was dated which was showing 13s. Still far less than BS agility and the over exaggerated 25s you're claiming. And no, i don't use implants/links/alts when i solo PvP. http://imgur.com/PFgccua To answer something you mentioned about autocannons and rifters having better projection. Here is the 10mn punisher and a 200mm dual ambit rig rifter. Punisher beat its out at edge of scram range, which is all that matters really. Punisher has better tank, better dps, better range and still has range control if webbed. As its only 200m/s slower than non webbed rifter. Using OH will allow you to pull range and get hits in. Yes if the rifter pilot also uses OH he can keep up, but this requires knowledge/skill/proper overview to pull off. So its not quite so one sided as a 1mn punisher vs a 1mn rifter. Templar Dane wrote: Tormentor has same shield, same armor, 60 something less hull. 20% resist bonus on armor for the punisher. If you aren't fitting a plate on any of your fits, that isn't much of a difference. Especially considering the tormentor can do a shield tank as well as the option on injector + dual rep. The punisher has a marginal advantage in capacitor compared to the tormentor, but the tormentor has the same cap bonus and only 3 guns to feed. Plus that magical extra mid which can be an injector. 20% isnt a big difference? Ok. Its having a free resist mod, meaning its easier for me to use a nano on the 10mn fit. I don't need to use a nano plating, its built into the hull. Now with having a 5th low, i can now put in a nano plating for more tank, same speed/agility. Or use a cap relay if cap is a concern. The punisher does better in armor gangs with logi than a shield tormentor gang with shield logi. Your point? The ships serve different roles/specialties. Punishers with logi will beat tormentors with logi. They function better in a gang format, and the tormentor is better as a solo/skirmish ship. Templar Dane wrote: And I'll say it again. The tormentor does everything the punisher does and does it better, with the exception of pure buffer. Oversize AB fits are a joke for solo because the agility is crap and it won't work for gang because you have no buffer so you'll die long before you get up to your top speed. tormentor has considerably less PG. So buffer is one issue. But it can't use 10mn fits, which is debatable if thats a good or bad thing. However, you claiming oversized AB are a joke are sadly mistaken. When used properly with decent fits they work very well in a solo environment. Theres more to oversized fits than agility, and its the ability to get out of scram range and kill tackle easily. I've even used 100mn battlecruisers, which have killed linked worms, succubus, svipuls etc. I've used 10mn retributions to scram kite kestrels and other frigs with webs. I've even used 10mn punishers. There are downfalls to using it yes, but if you know what you're doing it can be managed. Templar Dane wrote: If it were changed into a drone/rocket boat, at least it would be different and stand out from the current line up, instead of just being a bad tormentor. Then why don't you start saying that instead of persisting on the 2 mid syndrome. All i've seen is complaining about having 2 mids, and how it doesn't have range or range control. Wading into the conversation here... To be honest, i still think the problem comes down to the cap usage bonus. Damage projection aside, BOTH ships in this situation are literally throwing a combat bonus out the window just to use a weapon, and subsequently get their roles constricted. Ideally the Tormentor would have an optimal range bonus and the punisher would retain 3 guns and a damage bonus; the issue you two keep running up against each other with (from my perspective at least) is that you're arguing over which ship performs the same roles better, since they're both laser boats without too much to distinguish them from each other. As a side note, I am on Vicoden and have been on it for awhile, so take any comments i make with a grain of salt. @_@
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 229	Posted - 2015.10.24 05:05:10 - [414] - Quote Skyler Hawk wrote: I think my favourite aspect of the proposed rifter and punisher balance changes is that the Punisher is now a more effective small artillery platform (4 turrets, loads of fitting space, can easily do an MWD/longpoint kiting fit) than the Rifter (hideous fitting issues and only 3.75 effective turrets). arty frig with no web and no range control Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 229	Posted - 2015.10.24 05:27:31 - [415] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: They should just give the punisher a optimal bonus with its cap bonus and throw away the useless armor one, make it a even better t1 slicer with pulse lazors and dont force it into beams. This is what I tried to suggest earlier, for solo the punisher should be used to kite where it only needs two mid slots and the extra low can be used for a nano. But with an optimal bonus it's better than a slicer, that's how close to OP it is - and people are crying about it Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2842	Posted - 2015.10.24 06:10:01 - [416] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Skyler Hawk wrote: I think my favourite aspect of the proposed rifter and punisher balance changes is that the Punisher is now a more effective small artillery platform (4 turrets, loads of fitting space, can easily do an MWD/longpoint kiting fit) than the Rifter (hideous fitting issues and only 3.75 effective turrets). arty frig with no web and no range control I may not often totally screw up kiting in a Rifter, but when I do i make sure I have Arty fit so my web can play a role. /bloke with beer bottle Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 229	Posted - 2015.10.24 06:34:55 - [417] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Skyler Hawk wrote: I think my favourite aspect of the proposed rifter and punisher balance changes is that the Punisher is now a more effective small artillery platform (4 turrets, loads of fitting space, can easily do an MWD/longpoint kiting fit) than the Rifter (hideous fitting issues and only 3.75 effective turrets). arty frig with no web and no range control I may not often totally screw up kiting in a Rifter, but when I do i make sure I have Arty fit so my web can play a role. /bloke with beer bottle lol well i don't know much about kiting with arty tbh so i'm probably wrong but i thought web was kind of essential because it's terrible tracking makes it easy to get under the guns, and to help keep range. Especially on a punisher with no tracking bonus would it not be risky to just have long point and mwd? Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery 2842	Posted - 2015.10.24 09:52:30 - [418] - Quote But, but, how does a beam slicer work? Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1291	Posted - 2015.10.24 11:13:03 - [419] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: /bloke with beer bottle Figured you had to be a brit to be a bloke...
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 171	Posted - 2015.10.24 12:01:26 - [420] - Quote So... basically the Punisher is an autocannon ship now...
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1233	Posted - 2015.10.24 12:04:39 - [421] - Quote Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: So... basically the Punisher is an autocannon ship now... it does feel like where going backwards somewhat, with new T3's being massively OP and more e-war ships no one wants and amarr laser boats getting cap bonuses back again which people hate and will bypass with blasters as they are so much better T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 305	Posted - 2015.10.24 12:10:32 - [422] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Plz. For such an expert amarr pilot you should know that oversized props need an agility mod somewhere. With nano, its 14.2s, so the fitting app on my phone was dated which was showing 13s. Still far less than BS agility and the over exaggerated 25s you're claiming. And no, i don't use implants/links/alts when i solo PvP. http://imgur.com/PFgccua I did specifically say that was it's align time with only the AB fit. That's still battleship agility. The align time number you're looking at in your EFT is the time to get to 75% max velocity so it takes longer than the displayed number to get to that full potential speed. Stitch Kaneland wrote: To answer something you mentioned about autocannons and rifters having better projection. Here is the 10mn punisher and a 200mm dual ambit rig rifter. Punisher beat its out at edge of scram range, which is all that matters really. Punisher has better tank, better dps, better range and still has range control if webbed. As its only 200m/s slower than non webbed rifter. Using OH will allow you to pull range and get hits in. Yes if the rifter pilot also uses OH he can keep up, but this requires knowledge/skill/proper overview to pull off. So its not quite so one sided as a 1mn punisher vs a 1mn rifter. I said a punisher fit with bigger autocannons, not beams like in your pic. Stitch Kaneland wrote: tormentor has considerably less PG. So buffer is one issue. But it can't use 10mn fits, which is debatable if thats a good or bad thing. If you're wasting all that extra grid and more on an oversized afterburner I really don't see the point. Stitch Kaneland wrote: However, you claiming oversized AB are a joke are sadly mistaken. When used properly with decent fits they work very well in a solo environment. Theres more to oversized fits than agility, and its the ability to get out of scram range and kill tackle easily. I've even used 100mn battlecruisers, which have killed linked worms, succubus, svipuls etc. I've used 10mn retributions to scram kite kestrels and other frigs with webs. I've even used 10mn punishers. There are downfalls to using it yes, but if you know what you're doing it can be managed. They see a lot of use on ships that have AB bonuses (tech 3 cruisers, sansha ships) and on the T3Ds which have big velocity/inertia bonuses. They work on those ships because of the bonuses and because of mass/inertia relationship. The bigger the ship, the bigger the mass. Most people understand that. A lot of people don't notice that propulsion mods add mass, and an oversized propulsion mod adds tons of mass that the ship wasn't designed for. It turns most ships into bricks. A punisher is not a confessor. It doesn't have the ability to switch to propulsion mode and go super fast with a big bonus to agility enabling it to turn faster than it should. It's also not a strategic cruiser with a subsystem buffing afterburners. Stitch Kaneland wrote: Then why don't you start saying that instead of persisting on the 2 mid syndrome. All i've seen is complaining about having 2 mids, and how it doesn't have range or range control. [/quote] Then you've not been reading the thread. I have been debunking the people coming into this thread saying the punisher in it's current iteration is 'fine' or that the proposed changes to the punisher make it 'good'. It's a bad ship and these current changes won't change that. The tormentor is a good ship now and is the better option in everything but pure buffer. Just like how when the abaddon was introduced. We had three laser battleships. The geddon was cursed by low fittings and less mids, and the apoc had no purpose in the game because it had a laser cap usage and a cap recharge bonus. So the apoc wasn't an option and we had a new gun boat that was super easy to fit and had an extra mid over the geddon...with the geddon being a little more ganky thanks to it's drones. Now we have three battleships with different roles. While I would have argued the abaddon would have made the better drone boat and the geddon could have stayed the ganky option, I see the changes as positive. The punisher on the other hand is in a whole other place. It's less ganky and midslot starved in a class of ships where midslots are king. 'oh but templar, it's tanky' And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field. What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower. If on the other hand, you brought more gank/utility to the fight rather than a punisher maybe you'd have been able to dps down their logi and/or disrupt their ewar. I know these ships, I've been an amarr ship specialist the entire time I've been playing this game. This is my youngest main character and I picked amarr because they were the underdog. Oh sure I've gotten drunk and confused accounts and used non-amarr ships...and fairly recently lifted my own prohibition on the half-amarr pirate ships and such. I know them like the back of my hand. Every time I see someone in a punisher and not a tormentor it peeves me off a bit because I know that ****** is only in it so he will be the last one to go down and can get on every killmail, rather than be in a good ship and contributing more. Hell, I use the punisher even now. The only reason I use it is because it's crap and everyone knows it, so it's easier to get a fight in one. But being crap so you can get fights is a pretty bad role for a ship to have. Please, CCP, make it good at something. None of this jack of no trades, master of none.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 229	Posted - 2015.10.24 14:36:58 - [423] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field. What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower. If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 305	Posted - 2015.10.24 17:45:40 - [424] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Templar Dane wrote: And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field. What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower. If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well If you brought a punisher for tackle you did something wrong.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 388	Posted - 2015.10.24 20:44:09 - [425] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: But being crap so you can get fights is a pretty bad role for a ship to have. Please, CCP, make it good at something. None of this jack of no trades, master of none. The thing is the tor is a jack of all trades, master of none which is why it is good. The punisher is specialized, its is focused mainly on one thing. While **** atm, the new punisher will have its uses, in a beam fit with a armor buffer it will do good dps with good range with a good tank and will probably be the best t1 frigate for armor fleets with logis. Its a low skill thing for fcs in fw to put noobs in so they dont die instantly, as long as it will do decent dps with decent ehp for low sp it wont be useless. It wont be a good solo ship (depends on how good its at kiting), but it will be alright i guess.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 606	Posted - 2015.10.24 21:18:58 - [426] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Templar Dane wrote: And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field. What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower. If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well If you brought a punisher for tackle you did something wrong. The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high. I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 506	Posted - 2015.10.25 01:12:27 - [427] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Templar Dane wrote: And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field. What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower. If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well If you brought a punisher for tackle you did something wrong. The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high. I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that. If its heavy tackle why can a thorax outrun it while its tackled? Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
ColdBeauty oooh ponies 15	Posted - 2015.10.25 01:25:10 - [428] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Templar Dane wrote: And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field. What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower. If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well Or he got there late, the target left and the gang are peeved at him
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 506	Posted - 2015.10.25 01:27:02 - [429] - Quote http://eve.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitor anybody remember this? we need the missile line REBORN in amarr t1 frigates. 3 laser ships is ********. we need the missile LINE BACK!!!!!!! Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 305	Posted - 2015.10.25 01:49:23 - [430] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high. I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that. Dual ASB breacher, dual rep incursus, brick tanked merlin. They can do bait while not appearing as obvious, and they can solo.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 230	Posted - 2015.10.25 06:45:47 - [431] - Quote ColdBeauty wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Templar Dane wrote: And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field. What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower. If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well Or he got there late, the target left and the gang are peeved at him I didn't mean roaming gangs who still want their fast tackle, I was thinking more of pitched fights like faction war plex brawls, sometimes you want a few people hero tackling on the beacon if they can't fly the doctrine, and these can be fit so cheap and so tanky even with low skills they should be good in pubby fleets. If you have logi and links they can do stupid things, you can have 23k ehp + 160/184dps + sig radius of 24 + overheated mwd speed of 2572/ 3563m/s for 4.5mil each [Punisher, Punisher fit] Micro Auxillary Power Core I 'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates Damage Control II 5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I You could drop one of the blasters and fit a neut if you like, you can alternate webs and scrams through the gang, you could mix them up with fast tackle like derptrons, or slashers with sensor damps/tracking disruptors and neuts. For solo I think they need the tracking bonus in place of the cap usage bonus or they'll be better with anything but lasers. no web + no tracking bonus + lasers + slow hull might be unworkable. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1293	Posted - 2015.10.25 10:56:40 - [432] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash. quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups. Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around. The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that. Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector.
Ray P State Protectorate Caldari State 6	Posted - 2015.10.25 13:36:25 - [433] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: For solo I think they need the tracking bonus in place of the cap usage bonus or they'll be better with anything but lasers. no web + no tracking bonus + lasers + slow hull might be unworkable. For solo pretty much all t1 frigs are becoming unworkable. bad enough now but after the changes you can add two more ewar cancer ships to the meta of cancer and aids.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 506	Posted - 2015.10.25 15:16:07 - [434] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash. quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups. Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around. The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that. Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector. i wouldnt suggest the current punisher just get a blatent rocket bonus. more like it be redesigned. Punisher Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to rocket rate of fire 4% bonus to all armor resistances Slot layout: 3(-1) H, 3(+1) M, 4 L, 3(+3) Launcher 3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration Fittings: 50(-7) PWG, 160(+33) CPU Defense (shields / armour / hull): 350 / 550(+50) / 450 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 275(-125) / 135s/ 2s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 355 / 2.9 / 1,290,000 (+100000) / 5 / 4.8s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4 Sensor strength: 10 Radar Signature radius: 38(+1) The puni should keep is res bonus. to keep its combat ship line of. punisher/maller/prophecy/abaddon But with this it will get slower, loose alot of its capacitor to become like like the old rocket inquisitor but still retain a fast recharge rate. With the rof bonus it wouldn't be a dps powerhouse however over time the tankier ship and over time dps will make this a much used choice for small scale pvp. it will loose its utility high and gain a 3rd mid to maintain similarity with the maller and abaddon(no utility unless chosen) And then the maller should be redesigned to use launchers. so that amarr isnt stuck with only laser boats for cruiser combat choices. Really fozzie, the amarr frigate line up needs missiles brought back. it makes no sense to have 3 laser combat frigate choices. the punisher needs this change. or redesign the tormentor to be the missile ship. but something please. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 607	Posted - 2015.10.25 20:35:58 - [435] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high. I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that. Dual ASB breacher, dual rep incursus, brick tanked merlin. They can do bait while not appearing as obvious, and they can solo. I meant to say cruiser tackle. Merlin has issues with sig radius and shields have a lower resist profile overall vs armor, and the breacher is better at skirmishes at frigates. Destroyers and well-placed hits from cruiser weapons can alpha right through its reps fairly easily. The Punisher excels at tackling larger targets due to the utility high, low sig radius and high resists. Having a nosferatu on your punisher is ideal when tackling cruiser or larger ships with neuts on them.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 607	Posted - 2015.10.25 20:41:06 - [436] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: Lloyd Roses wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash. quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups. Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around. The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that. Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector. i wouldnt suggest the current punisher just get a blatent rocket bonus. more like it be redesigned. Punisher Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to rocket rate of fire 4% bonus to all armor resistances Slot layout: 3(-1) H, 3(+1) M, 4 L, 3(+3) Launcher 3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration Fittings: 50(-7) PWG, 160(+33) CPU Defense (shields / armour / hull): 350 / 550(+50) / 450 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 275(-125) / 135s/ 2s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 355 / 2.9 / 1,290,000 (+100000) / 5 / 4.8s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4 Sensor strength: 10 Radar Signature radius: 38(+1) The puni should keep is res bonus. to keep its combat ship line of. punisher/maller/prophecy/abaddon But with this it will get slower, loose alot of its capacitor to become like like the old rocket inquisitor but still retain a fast recharge rate. With the rof bonus it wouldn't be a dps powerhouse however over time the tankier ship and over time dps will make this a much used choice for small scale pvp. it will loose its utility high and gain a 3rd mid to maintain similarity with the maller and abaddon(no utility unless chosen) And then the maller should be redesigned to use launchers. so that amarr isnt stuck with only laser boats for cruiser combat choices. Really fozzie, the amarr frigate line up needs missiles brought back. it makes no sense to have 3 laser combat frigate choices. the punisher needs this change. or redesign the tormentor to be the missile ship. but something please. Yeah im not an expert at judging what is overpowered and what isnt. but really think outside the box. amarr NEED this. it isnt fair that every other race in the game enjoys weapon system mix ups in their frigate line. You cannot seriously tell me that the amarr military people got together and decided this would be a good idea to have 3 energy frigates. Nobody thinks like that. Nobody would limit themselves to that. TBH i think the issue lies more in them not having a proper drone boat in the frigate lineup. I'd rather see them upgrade the Crucifier to use drones in a similar manner to the Arbitrator and Geddon, except with something like an HP and speed bonus. I'd prefer to see that translate over to the Navy Crucifier when it comes out as well, lending to a a very versatile line of ewar frigs for amarr.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 506	Posted - 2015.10.25 20:59:35 - [437] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: Lloyd Roses wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash. quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups. Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around. The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that. Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector. i wouldnt suggest the current punisher just get a blatent rocket bonus. more like it be redesigned. Punisher Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to rocket rate of fire 4% bonus to all armor resistances Slot layout: 3(-1) H, 3(+1) M, 4 L, 3(+3) Launcher 3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration Fittings: 50(-7) PWG, 160(+33) CPU Defense (shields / armour / hull): 350 / 550(+50) / 450 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 275(-125) / 135s/ 2s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 355 / 2.9 / 1,290,000 (+100000) / 5 / 4.8s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4 Sensor strength: 10 Radar Signature radius: 38(+1) The puni should keep is res bonus. to keep its combat ship line of. punisher/maller/prophecy/abaddon But with this it will get slower, loose alot of its capacitor to become like like the old rocket inquisitor but still retain a fast recharge rate. With the rof bonus it wouldn't be a dps powerhouse however over time the tankier ship and over time dps will make this a much used choice for small scale pvp. it will loose its utility high and gain a 3rd mid to maintain similarity with the maller and abaddon(no utility unless chosen) And then the maller should be redesigned to use launchers. so that amarr isnt stuck with only laser boats for cruiser combat choices. Really fozzie, the amarr frigate line up needs missiles brought back. it makes no sense to have 3 laser combat frigate choices. the punisher needs this change. or redesign the tormentor to be the missile ship. but something please. Yeah im not an expert at judging what is overpowered and what isnt. but really think outside the box. amarr NEED this. it isnt fair that every other race in the game enjoys weapon system mix ups in their frigate line. You cannot seriously tell me that the amarr military people got together and decided this would be a good idea to have 3 energy frigates. Nobody thinks like that. Nobody would limit themselves to that. TBH i think the issue lies more in them not having a proper drone boat in the frigate lineup. I'd rather see them upgrade the Crucifier to use drones in a similar manner to the Arbitrator and Geddon, except with something like an HP and speed bonus. I'd prefer to see that translate over to the Navy Crucifier when it comes out as well, lending to a a very versatile line of ewar frigs for amarr. No. the arbitrator is probably the least used cruiser in history. ccp would never 'upgrade' the cruicifer in the way you want it to be. they will make it extremely meatyoker at best. just like the arbitrator. the geddon was a fluke on ccp's balance part. When they took away the armageddons uniqueness and made another battleship with 8 lows there was rioting and the only way they were going to fix that was by making the arma NOT suck. its very comparable in combat just like its counterparts except the arbitrator is extremely subpar to its counterparts. drones are not the answer. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
KitCat 01 Anime Masters Baka Legion 3	Posted - 2015.10.26 02:53:41 - [438] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The Firetail now matches the Fleet Stabber and Fleet Hurricane tracking bonus! Are you considering giving the same bonus to the Tempest Fleet Issue? Please say yes! ... Please say yes! ... Please say yes! ... Please say yes! ... Please say yes! ... Please say yes! ... ...
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 410	Posted - 2015.10.26 13:49:42 - [439] - Quote I'm not sure why people are talking about the return of the Autocannon Punisher. Everybody knows Hybrids are the most popular turret right now. It's time for the rise of the kitey Rail Punisher.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 608	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:57:45 - [440] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: Lloyd Roses wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash. quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups. Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around. The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that. Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector. i wouldnt suggest the current punisher just get a blatent rocket bonus. more like it be redesigned. Punisher Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to rocket rate of fire 4% bonus to all armor resistances Slot layout: 3(-1) H, 3(+1) M, 4 L, 3(+3) Launcher 3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration Fittings: 50(-7) PWG, 160(+33) CPU Defense (shields / armour / hull): 350 / 550(+50) / 450 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 275(-125) / 135s/ 2s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 355 / 2.9 / 1,290,000 (+100000) / 5 / 4.8s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4 Sensor strength: 10 Radar Signature radius: 38(+1) The puni should keep is res bonus. to keep its combat ship line of. punisher/maller/prophecy/abaddon But with this it will get slower, loose alot of its capacitor to become like like the old rocket inquisitor but still retain a fast recharge rate. With the rof bonus it wouldn't be a dps powerhouse however over time the tankier ship and over time dps will make this a much used choice for small scale pvp. it will loose its utility high and gain a 3rd mid to maintain similarity with the maller and abaddon(no utility unless chosen) And then the maller should be redesigned to use launchers. so that amarr isnt stuck with only laser boats for cruiser combat choices. Really fozzie, the amarr frigate line up needs missiles brought back. it makes no sense to have 3 laser combat frigate choices. the punisher needs this change. or redesign the tormentor to be the missile ship. but something please. Yeah im not an expert at judging what is overpowered and what isnt. but really think outside the box. amarr NEED this. it isnt fair that every other race in the game enjoys weapon system mix ups in their frigate line. You cannot seriously tell me that the amarr military people got together and decided this would be a good idea to have 3 energy frigates. Nobody thinks like that. Nobody would limit themselves to that. TBH i think the issue lies more in them not having a proper drone boat in the frigate lineup. I'd rather see them upgrade the Crucifier to use drones in a similar manner to the Arbitrator and Geddon, except with something like an HP and speed bonus. I'd prefer to see that translate over to the Navy Crucifier when it comes out as well, lending to a a very versatile line of ewar frigs for amarr. No. the arbitrator is probably the least used cruiser in history. ccp would never 'upgrade' the cruicifer in the way you want it to be. they will make it extremely meatyoker at best. just like the arbitrator. the geddon was a fluke on ccp's balance part. When they took away the armageddons uniqueness and made another battleship with 8 lows there was rioting and the only way they were going to fix that was by making the arma NOT suck. its very comparable in combat just like its counterparts except the arbitrator is extremely subpar to its counterparts. drones are not the answer. "The arbitrator is probably the least used cruiser in history". The arby was and remains a very popular solo cruiser; especially a few years back. It was fit primarily with a good number of neuts and wrecks utter havoc on frigate gangs. People generally just forgo the TD entirely on it, and it is only seeing less usage now due to the prevalence of the Vexor and its counterparts. In regards to the armageddon, the changed it in the way they did to fall in line with the progression the have going starting with the Dragoon. My point stands that tracking disruptor bonuses are not exactly all that useful on t1 ships by themselves, so the crucifier getting drone bonuses or even getting drones and neut range like the Dragoon would be ideal. I would appreciate you being clearer on where exactly you're coming from with your point since it's coming across as fairly garbled.
Nightfox BloodRaven State Protectorate Caldari State 43	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:49:38 - [441] - Quote You know orthrus nerf is just stupid.. you can BARELY kill a cruiser solo before reload giving them time to maneuver ecm call friends deagress whatever.. its not hard to survive.. so how the hell can you justify this... hell takes at least half a bil to fit the ship so dont give me the argument oh some scrub in a t1 frigate dont cant survive the tackle for the blob to come.. Slowly CCP killing the game..
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 1496	Posted - 2015.10.26 21:45:33 - [442] - Quote Nightfox BloodRaven wrote: You know orthrus nerf is just stupid.. you can BARELY kill a cruiser solo before reload giving them time to maneuver ecm call friends deagress whatever.. its not hard to survive.. so how the hell can you justify this... hell takes at least half a bil to fit the ship so dont give me the argument oh some scrub in a t1 frigate dont cant survive the tackle for the blob to come.. Slowly CCP killing the game.. Orthrus nerf is not enough. Also CCP should nerf the Garmur. The Tears Must Flow
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 506	Posted - 2015.10.27 00:45:11 - [443] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: "The arbitrator is probably the least used cruiser in history". The arby was and remains a very popular solo cruiser; especially a few years back. It was fit primarily with a good number of neuts and wrecks utter havoc on frigate gangs. People generally just forgo the TD entirely on it, and it is only seeing less usage now due to the prevalence of the Vexor and its counterparts. The only reason the arbitrator was ever picked in the past was because it was the least ****** of the amarr cruisers and thats saying nothing really. old omen, you had to have awu5 to fit 5 of the SMALLEST guns and a 800mm plate old maller you had to choose between a plate or a medium guns. old augoror. well that WAS the least used cruisers in history. The only people flying arbis by choice were amarr role players. everybody knew that you brought a rupture a stfi or a gila or went home. The reason why the arbi isnt used today is because when ALL other cruisers were receiving massive buffs to DAMAGE and tank. the arbi only got a extra low. didnt get any damage increases, didnt get any tank increases, didnt get any extra bandwidth like other cruisers. the arbi was left behind and is suffereing since. behind all the t1 logi cruisers the arbi sits proud as the least used t1 combat oriented cruiser ever. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 320	Posted - 2015.10.27 02:53:23 - [444] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: I meant to say cruiser tackle. Merlin has issues with sig radius and shields have a lower resist profile overall vs armor, and the breacher is better at skirmishes at frigates. Destroyers and well-placed hits from cruiser weapons can alpha right through its reps fairly easily. The Punisher excels at tackling larger targets due to the utility high, low sig radius and high resists. Having a nosferatu on your punisher is ideal when tackling cruiser or larger ships with neuts on them. Put a web on a target and it's slower. Because it is slower it's ability to dictate range is lessened, which makes your relative speed to the target much higher.....increasing angular velocity. A punisher has a much higher chance to get wrecked by cruiser guns because it has no web. The punisher lost a 1/5 of it's resist bonus a while back. It's also losing it's utility high.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 889	Posted - 2015.10.27 03:59:36 - [445] - Quote Vaju Enki wrote: Nightfox BloodRaven wrote: You know orthrus nerf is just stupid.. you can BARELY kill a cruiser solo before reload giving them time to maneuver ecm call friends deagress whatever.. its not hard to survive.. so how the hell can you justify this... hell takes at least half a bil to fit the ship so dont give me the argument oh some scrub in a t1 frigate dont cant survive the tackle for the blob to come.. Slowly CCP killing the game.. Orthrus nerf is not enough. Also CCP should nerf the Garmur. You may be new in New Eden but light missiles and small guns are not the only weapons in EVE. Nerfing pirate faction class ships in plain dumb. And speaking of involuntary disassemblies, the Gila and Worm do not warrant for such a terrible nerf. If people would whine less and think more we would have more time to spend on important things. Dear CCP Ytterbium, please explain to the kids how CCP sees pirate faction ships compared to others. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 389	Posted - 2015.10.27 04:11:19 - [446] - Quote Nightfox BloodRaven wrote: You know orthrus nerf is just stupid.. you can BARELY kill a cruiser solo before reload giving them time to maneuver ecm call friends deagress whatever.. its not hard to survive.. so how the hell can you justify this... hell takes at least half a bil to fit the ship so dont give me the argument oh some scrub in a t1 frigate dont cant survive the tackle for the blob to come.. Slowly CCP killing the game.. lol
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 232	Posted - 2015.10.27 06:58:03 - [447] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: "The arbitrator is probably the least used cruiser in history". The arby was and remains a very popular solo cruiser; especially a few years back. It was fit primarily with a good number of neuts and wrecks utter havoc on frigate gangs. People generally just forgo the TD entirely on it, and it is only seeing less usage now due to the prevalence of the Vexor and its counterparts. The only reason the arbitrator was ever picked in the past was because it was the least ****** of the amarr cruisers and thats saying nothing really. old omen, you had to have awu5 to fit 5 of the SMALLEST guns and a 800mm plate old maller you had to choose between a plate or a medium guns. old augoror. well that WAS the least used cruisers in history. The only people flying arbis by choice were amarr role players. everybody knew that you brought a rupture a stfi or a gila or went home. The reason why the arbi isnt used today is because when ALL other cruisers were receiving massive buffs to DAMAGE and tank. the arbi only got a extra low. didnt get any damage increases, didnt get any tank increases, didnt get any extra bandwidth like other cruisers. the arbi was left behind and is suffereing since. behind all the t1 logi cruisers the arbi sits proud as the least used t1 combat oriented cruiser ever. The Maller and the Omen are weaksauce imo, Arbitrator is fine compared to other ewar cruisers. They suffer from Amarr syndrome of having weapons that are good when you have range control... but they have no range control Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4701	Posted - 2015.10.27 07:12:27 - [448] - Quote Can we get a physical size reduction on the Barghest in the order of 25-33%? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 177	Posted - 2015.10.27 08:57:43 - [449] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Can we get a physical size reduction on the Barghest in the order of 25-33%? It has a larger surface area than a Chimera carrier... Try looking at it sideways.
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 177	Posted - 2015.10.27 08:59:38 - [450] - Quote Nightfox BloodRaven wrote: You know orthrus nerf is just stupid.. you can BARELY kill a cruiser solo before reload giving them time to maneuver ecm call friends deagress whatever.. its not hard to survive.. so how the hell can you justify this... hell takes at least half a bil to fit the ship so dont give me the argument oh some scrub in a t1 frigate dont cant survive the tackle for the blob to come.. Slowly CCP killing the game.. I'll just leave this here. https://zkillboard.com/kill/47133497/
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 359	Posted - 2015.10.27 12:01:59 - [451] - Quote Nightfox BloodRaven wrote: You know orthrus nerf is just stupid.. you can BARELY kill a cruiser solo before reload giving them time to maneuver ecm call friends deagress whatever.. its not hard to survive.. so how the hell can you justify this... hell takes at least half a bil to fit the ship so dont give me the argument oh some scrub in a t1 frigate dont cant survive the tackle for the blob to come.. Slowly CCP killing the game.. There should be a clueless post of the year award, because holy **. OMG, something didn't die within 35 seconds of me engaging it? My ship is garbage, ** you CCP.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 321	Posted - 2015.10.27 16:09:14 - [452] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Nightfox BloodRaven wrote: You know orthrus nerf is just stupid.. you can BARELY kill a cruiser solo before reload giving them time to maneuver ecm call friends deagress whatever.. its not hard to survive.. so how the hell can you justify this... hell takes at least half a bil to fit the ship so dont give me the argument oh some scrub in a t1 frigate dont cant survive the tackle for the blob to come.. Slowly CCP killing the game.. There should be a clueless post of the year award, because holy **. OMG, something didn't die within 35 seconds of me engaging it? My ship is garbage, ** you CCP. My anti-frigate weapons can only kill one cruiser before i have to reload. wahhhhhhh
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4707	Posted - 2015.10.28 01:42:57 - [453] - Quote Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: Try looking at it sideways. Try using an acceleration gate with it some time... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Shelom Severasse The Blueprint Co. 51	Posted - 2015.10.28 02:32:20 - [454] - Quote honestly, I am super pumped to try out the new punisher.
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 178	Posted - 2015.10.28 03:04:45 - [455] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: Try looking at it sideways. Try using an acceleration gate with it some time... Try finding another easier way to make giant space pancakes.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4707	Posted - 2015.10.28 03:47:40 - [456] - Quote Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: Try finding another easier way to make giant space pancakes. I'm fine with a smaller flying pan, really. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Catherine Laartii Perkone Caldari State 608	Posted - 2015.10.29 03:01:50 - [457] - Quote I will continue to say this again as many times as I need to until it gets acknowledged: The Hookbill's problem is NOT dps. IT'S THE DAMN FITTING SPACE! Compared to even other t1 frigs, it's subpar. I am going to lay this out for anyone who doesn't understand how BAD a problem this is. 1. The hookbill has an extra bonused weapon over its navy faction counterparts, as well as the highest number of mid slots (5) out of all the navy frigates. Despite this, it only has 5.5 more total cpu than the closest competitor, the Navy Comet, and less powergrid than ANY of the other 3, which total up to 50 pg, wheres the Hookbill pushes barely over 46. 2. It cannot make use of all of its mid slots without investing heavily into CPU modules even IF you have top skills. God forbid you want to fit a tank on it; the 3rd missile launcher takes up much of the cpu needed for the mids (compare to the Firetail, which barely uses any cpu at all for autocannons), and you end up having to fit at least 1 power grid module or rig to fit JUST 3 rocket launchers, a mwd, and a medium shield extender. To start with, you HAVE to fit a power grid mod. Then you HAVE to fit a cpu mod if you want to make full use of your mids. 3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules. 4. You cannot, i repeat, CANNOT fit an effective light missile build without completely negating dps in favor of fitting modules. While capacitor remains an issue at any level, kiting builds tend to fill up their mid slots with such goodies as damps, tracking disruptors, and the occasional TP for a roaming gang. Generally it is to be expected that such fits on any frigate that aren't specialized for it will run out of capacitor fairly quickly, but it's particularly problematic for a combat frigate with 5 mid slots that can't really use them all that well to begin with. 5. With all this in mind, there are only two realistic options for a rebalance: Either drop a launcher and increase the bonus to 50% kinetic dmg and 40% dmg for em, therm, and explosive with a small increase in CPU, or retain your current idea but add a moderate to significant increase in powergrid and CPU. Either way it is absolutely necessary that the base PG and CPU get a bump. And for anyone wondering, i am not just talking out my ass here. I've been in calmil on and off for years, and anyone who has talked to me for any length of time knows i am absolutely obsessed about fit crafting. I KNOW this ship, and i can tell you as much as i want to love it, it remains craptastic due to anemic fitting space. This NEEDS to change.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1860	Posted - 2015.10.29 03:13:52 - [458] - Quote Nightfox BloodRaven wrote: You know orthrus nerf is just stupid.. you can BARELY kill a cruiser solo before reload giving them time to maneuver ecm call friends deagress whatever.. its not hard to survive.. so how the hell can you justify this... hell takes at least half a bil to fit the ship so dont give me the argument oh some scrub in a t1 frigate dont cant survive the tackle for the blob to come.. Slowly CCP killing the game.. Thank you for the chuckles... Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here? I'm stubborn.
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 180	Posted - 2015.10.29 03:34:02 - [459] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: 3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules. Even if you gave the hookbill more fitting space, I'd still fit them as armor/scramkite. If I wanted to shield tank, I'd fly a hawk. If I wanted to kite, I'd fly a Crow, Garmur, Worm, Malediction, Condor etc etc.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 390	Posted - 2015.10.29 03:48:23 - [460] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: I will continue to say this again as many times as I need to until it gets acknowledged: The Hookbill's problem is NOT dps. IT'S THE DAMN FITTING SPACE! Compared to even other t1 frigs, it's subpar. I am going to lay this out for anyone who doesn't understand how BAD a problem this is. 1. The hookbill has an extra bonused weapon over its navy faction counterparts, as well as the highest number of mid slots (5) out of all the navy frigates. Despite this, it only has 5.5 more total cpu than the closest competitor, the Navy Comet, and less powergrid than ANY of the other 3, (50 pg each), wheres the Hookbill pushes barely over 46. 2. It cannot make use of all of its mid slots without investing heavily into CPU modules even IF you have top skills. God forbid you want to fit a tank on it; the 3rd missile launcher takes up much of the cpu needed for the mids (compare to the Firetail, which barely uses any cpu at all for autocannons), and you end up having to fit at least 1 power grid module or rig to fit JUST 3 rocket launchers, a mwd, and a medium shield extender. To start with, you HAVE to fit a power grid mod. Then you HAVE to fit a cpu mod if you want to make full use of your mids. 3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules. 4. You cannot, i repeat, CANNOT fit an effective light missile build without completely negating dps in favor of fitting modules. While capacitor remains an issue at any level, kiting builds tend to fill up their mid slots with such goodies as damps, tracking disruptors, and the occasional TP for a roaming gang. Generally it is to be expected that such fits on any frigate that aren't specialized for it will run out of capacitor fairly quickly, but it's particularly problematic for a combat frigate with 5 mid slots that can't really use them all that well to begin with. 5. With all this in mind, there are only two realistic options for a rebalance: Either drop a launcher and increase the bonus to 50% kinetic dmg and 40% dmg for em, therm, and explosive with a small increase in CPU, or retain your current idea but add a moderate to significant increase in powergrid and CPU. Either way it is absolutely necessary that the base PG and CPU get a bump. And for anyone wondering, i am not just talking out my ass here. I've been in calmil on and off for years, and anyone who has talked to me for any length of time knows i am absolutely obsessed about fit crafting. I KNOW this ship, and i can tell you as much as i want to love it, it remains craptastic due to anemic fitting space. This NEEDS to change. Thats what keeps it interesting though, hookbill will be very strong after the changes anyways, with endless fitting it would be op.
Catherine Laartii State Protectorate Caldari State 608	Posted - 2015.10.29 04:01:10 - [461] - Quote Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: 3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules. Even if you gave the hookbill more fitting space, I'd still fit them as armor/scramkite. If I wanted to shield tank, I'd fly a hawk. If I wanted to kite, I'd fly a Crow, Garmur, Worm, Malediction, Condor etc etc. To be fair, you really can't use light missile effectively on it due to the fitting restrictions. If you had more room it might be preferable to the armor build, i think.
Catherine Laartii State Protectorate Caldari State 608	Posted - 2015.10.29 04:02:37 - [462] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: I will continue to say this again as many times as I need to until it gets acknowledged: The Hookbill's problem is NOT dps. IT'S THE DAMN FITTING SPACE! Compared to even other t1 frigs, it's subpar. I am going to lay this out for anyone who doesn't understand how BAD a problem this is. 1. The hookbill has an extra bonused weapon over its navy faction counterparts, as well as the highest number of mid slots (5) out of all the navy frigates. Despite this, it only has 5.5 more total cpu than the closest competitor, the Navy Comet, and less powergrid than ANY of the other 3, (50 pg each), wheres the Hookbill pushes barely over 46. 2. It cannot make use of all of its mid slots without investing heavily into CPU modules even IF you have top skills. God forbid you want to fit a tank on it; the 3rd missile launcher takes up much of the cpu needed for the mids (compare to the Firetail, which barely uses any cpu at all for autocannons), and you end up having to fit at least 1 power grid module or rig to fit JUST 3 rocket launchers, a mwd, and a medium shield extender. To start with, you HAVE to fit a power grid mod. Then you HAVE to fit a cpu mod if you want to make full use of your mids. 3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules. 4. You cannot, i repeat, CANNOT fit an effective light missile build without completely negating dps in favor of fitting modules. While capacitor remains an issue at any level, kiting builds tend to fill up their mid slots with such goodies as damps, tracking disruptors, and the occasional TP for a roaming gang. Generally it is to be expected that such fits on any frigate that aren't specialized for it will run out of capacitor fairly quickly, but it's particularly problematic for a combat frigate with 5 mid slots that can't really use them all that well to begin with. 5. With all this in mind, there are only two realistic options for a rebalance: Either drop a launcher and increase the bonus to 50% kinetic dmg and 40% dmg for em, therm, and explosive with a small increase in CPU, or retain your current idea but add a moderate to significant increase in powergrid and CPU. Either way it is absolutely necessary that the base PG and CPU get a bump. And for anyone wondering, i am not just talking out my ass here. I've been in calmil on and off for years, and anyone who has talked to me for any length of time knows i am absolutely obsessed about fit crafting. I KNOW this ship, and i can tell you as much as i want to love it, it remains craptastic due to anemic fitting space. This NEEDS to change. Thats what keeps it interesting though, hookbill will be very strong after the changes anyways, with endless fitting it would be op. It's not endless fitting; just bringing it up to the fitting space of the others is what i want. As it stands, you really can't use light missiles on it, and it's obscene that you can't really fit a good build without any fitting mods or rigs.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 390	Posted - 2015.10.29 04:14:56 - [463] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: W0lf Crendraven wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: I will continue to say this again as many times as I need to until it gets acknowledged: The Hookbill's problem is NOT dps. IT'S THE DAMN FITTING SPACE! Compared to even other t1 frigs, it's subpar. I am going to lay this out for anyone who doesn't understand how BAD a problem this is. 1. The hookbill has an extra bonused weapon over its navy faction counterparts, as well as the highest number of mid slots (5) out of all the navy frigates. Despite this, it only has 5.5 more total cpu than the closest competitor, the Navy Comet, and less powergrid than ANY of the other 3, (50 pg each), wheres the Hookbill pushes barely over 46. 2. It cannot make use of all of its mid slots without investing heavily into CPU modules even IF you have top skills. God forbid you want to fit a tank on it; the 3rd missile launcher takes up much of the cpu needed for the mids (compare to the Firetail, which barely uses any cpu at all for autocannons), and you end up having to fit at least 1 power grid module or rig to fit JUST 3 rocket launchers, a mwd, and a medium shield extender. To start with, you HAVE to fit a power grid mod. Then you HAVE to fit a cpu mod if you want to make full use of your mids. 3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules. 4. You cannot, i repeat, CANNOT fit an effective light missile build without completely negating dps in favor of fitting modules. While capacitor remains an issue at any level, kiting builds tend to fill up their mid slots with such goodies as damps, tracking disruptors, and the occasional TP for a roaming gang. Generally it is to be expected that such fits on any frigate that aren't specialized for it will run out of capacitor fairly quickly, but it's particularly problematic for a combat frigate with 5 mid slots that can't really use them all that well to begin with. 5. With all this in mind, there are only two realistic options for a rebalance: Either drop a launcher and increase the bonus to 50% kinetic dmg and 40% dmg for em, therm, and explosive with a small increase in CPU, or retain your current idea but add a moderate to significant increase in powergrid and CPU. Either way it is absolutely necessary that the base PG and CPU get a bump. And for anyone wondering, i am not just talking out my ass here. I've been in calmil on and off for years, and anyone who has talked to me for any length of time knows i am absolutely obsessed about fit crafting. I KNOW this ship, and i can tell you as much as i want to love it, it remains craptastic due to anemic fitting space. This NEEDS to change. Thats what keeps it interesting though, hookbill will be very strong after the changes anyways, with endless fitting it would be op. It's not endless fitting; just bringing it up to the fitting space of the others is what i want. As it stands, you really can't use light missiles on it, and it's obscene that you can't really fit a good build without any fitting mods or rigs. Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that.
Idame Isqua Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 4	Posted - 2015.10.29 04:57:24 - [464] - Quote I still don't understand the logic behind gimping caldari capacitors. CCPlease
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 233	Posted - 2015.10.29 08:07:32 - [465] - Quote Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: 3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules. Even if you gave the hookbill more fitting space, I'd still fit them as armor/scramkite. If I wanted to shield tank, I'd fly a hawk. If I wanted to kite, I'd fly a Crow, Garmur, Worm, Malediction, Condor etc etc. That may be, but at least everyone wouldn't immediately know what your fit was, and it would be possible for players who don't have perfect fitting skills to use the hookbill without gimping it with fitting mods. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 233	Posted - 2015.10.29 08:58:36 - [466] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that. What's your agenda? Clearly nothing to do with ship balance, or a fair lp store Faction Frigates usage from z killboard 1. Navy Slicer: 41,281 destroyed = 412 281 000 lp 2. Fed Navy Comet: 39,150 destroyed = 391 500 000 lp 3. Fleet Firetail: 21,435 destroyed = 214 350 000 lp 4. Navy Hookbill: 11,337 destroyed = 113 370 000 lp going from 6 to 6.75 turrets is not going to fix that. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
bunzing heet Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 11	Posted - 2015.10.29 11:29:34 - [467] - Quote soooooo..... ccp when is this hitting sisi? Fly safe keep killing And remember I'm watching you !!!!
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 686	Posted - 2015.10.29 11:53:19 - [468] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: W0lf Crendraven wrote: Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that. What's your agenda? Clearly nothing to do with ship balance, or a fair lp store Faction Frigates usage from z killboard 1. Navy Slicer: 41,281 destroyed = 412 281 000 lp 2. Fed Navy Comet: 39,150 destroyed = 391 500 000 lp 3. Fleet Firetail: 21,435 destroyed = 214 350 000 lp 4. Navy Hookbill: 11,337 destroyed = 113 370 000 lp going from 6 to 6.75 turrets is not going to fix that. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6124854#post6124854 He's fine with the Fleet Vigil... "because lml kiting is in a really bad place" Fleet Vigil Fittings: 38 PWG, 190 CPU Not OP according to him Faster hull, 15m3 drone bay, 50% web bonus but still not OP according to W0lf Hookbill fittings: 37PWG, 165CPU has to fit an extra launcher,an extra midslot, less low slots for fitting mods, slower hull, less drone bay, no web range bonus no application bonus... but this ship would be OP if it got a fittings buff. This is one of those scenarios where the devs should actually post an example fit so we can see where the vessel was balanced towards. But the facts are the facts, the hookbill is bad, the double-web/scram kite fits of years past has been overtaken by less skill demanding ships with better overall stats and easier piloting. give the hookbill +10 pg and +30cpu and see what happens. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 615	Posted - 2015.10.29 12:56:09 - [469] - Quote Idame Isqua wrote: I still don't understand the logic behind gimping caldari capacitors. CCPlease For example: You say extra utility on Osprey will add interesting cap warfare possibilities Currently: EFT says fitting 2 medium neuts and a mwd leaves me with 55s of cap EFT says the Osprey has the exact same capacitor as the Vexor EFT says the Vexor has 250 more PG than the osprey Vexor has a 50% bonus to drones Osprey has a 50% bonus to missiles (yae this is getting buffed) Ok if I shield fit both of them the Navy Osprey has 10K more EFT EHP But common I'm seriously comparing a Vexor with a Navy Osprey here However drones are still far superior to missiles in terms of applied DPS And these new ewar mods will make it even worse What about having some sort of anti drone ewar area of effect module? Like a jam burst kinda thing maybe effecting jamming or causing them to randomly retarget something close (similar to auto-missiles). Or maybe like a thing you can shoot that's a drone web/net but with a 5km radius I always thought DRONES = MISSILES Yet their is no way in lowsec to counter drones, apart from having your own drones attack them. Presuming your fitting anti cruiser launchers like H(A)Ms Even then you pretty much have to web each drone down again and again as they are replaced as soon as they are lost And no I don't want smart bombs in lowsec because firewalls. And when I say lowsec I really mean in Faction Warfare Lighting up a smartbomb in factionwarfare gets you booted out very quickly You dont run dual neuts/mwd at the same time. Unless you are preventing scram from a frig. However, even if you do, dual medium neuts will nuke most frigs cap in 1 cycle. So you are not perma running neuts/mwd. If you are tackled or tackling, then the mwd is off. The nosprey has 6 mids, use one for a cap booster. Scyfi, nomen, navy exeq all need cap boosters to kite effectively as well. The nosprey isnt the only fleet cruiser that suffers from this. Its a balancing point. These are fast and very agile cruisers, being able to perma kite is not ideal. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 233	Posted - 2015.10.29 14:44:20 - [470] - Quote Idame Isqua wrote: I still don't understand the logic behind gimping caldari capacitors. CCPlease For example: You say extra utility on Osprey will add interesting cap warfare possibilities Currently: EFT says fitting 2 medium neuts and a mwd leaves me with 55s of cap EFT says the Osprey has the exact same capacitor as the Vexor EFT says the Vexor has 250 more PG than the osprey Vexor has a 50% bonus to drones Osprey has a 50% bonus to missiles (yae this is getting buffed) Ok if I shield fit both of them the Navy Osprey has 10K more EFT EHP But common I'm seriously comparing a Vexor with a Navy Osprey here However drones are still far superior to missiles in terms of applied DPS And these new ewar mods will make it even worse What about having some sort of anti drone ewar area of effect module? Like a jam burst kinda thing maybe effecting jamming or causing them to randomly retarget something close (similar to auto-missiles). Or maybe like a thing you can shoot that's a drone web/net but with a 5km radius I always thought DRONES = MISSILES Yet their is no way in lowsec to counter drones, apart from having your own drones attack them. Presuming your fitting anti cruiser launchers like H(A)Ms Even then you pretty much have to web each drone down again and again as they are replaced as soon as they are lost And no I don't want smart bombs in lowsec because firewalls. And when I say lowsec I really mean in Faction Warfare Lighting up a smartbomb in factionwarfare gets you booted out very quickly The Navy Osprey changes are spot on. Why would you want to fit two medium neuts? You only need one medium and one small to keep the guy capped out, and realistically that's all you have fitting space for anyway. And no stitch it's not "another" rlml boat with a range bonus, because it's always been a rlml boat with a range bonus and your suggestions would put it back in the dumpster beside the Navy Caracal for another 5 years - so no thanks. If any ship is meant for RLML kiting it's the Navy Osprey, if any RLML ship should lose it's range bonus (and I'm not saying it should) but it would have to be the 10mil isk t1 Caracal - not the 70mil+ navy osprey or we end up with t1 cruisers being better than caldari navy cruisers which is the whole probelm anyway. If a ship were to be changed for missile brawling it could be the Navy Caracal with 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount and a few other tweaks as well, but I'd rather dump it and get a Navy Moa with a range bonus for medium rails instead. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 615	Posted - 2015.10.29 15:36:01 - [471] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Idame Isqua wrote: I still don't understand the logic behind gimping caldari capacitors. CCPlease For example: You say extra utility on Osprey will add interesting cap warfare possibilities Currently: EFT says fitting 2 medium neuts and a mwd leaves me with 55s of cap EFT says the Osprey has the exact same capacitor as the Vexor EFT says the Vexor has 250 more PG than the osprey Vexor has a 50% bonus to drones Osprey has a 50% bonus to missiles (yae this is getting buffed) Ok if I shield fit both of them the Navy Osprey has 10K more EFT EHP But common I'm seriously comparing a Vexor with a Navy Osprey here However drones are still far superior to missiles in terms of applied DPS And these new ewar mods will make it even worse What about having some sort of anti drone ewar area of effect module? Like a jam burst kinda thing maybe effecting jamming or causing them to randomly retarget something close (similar to auto-missiles). Or maybe like a thing you can shoot that's a drone web/net but with a 5km radius I always thought DRONES = MISSILES Yet their is no way in lowsec to counter drones, apart from having your own drones attack them. Presuming your fitting anti cruiser launchers like H(A)Ms Even then you pretty much have to web each drone down again and again as they are replaced as soon as they are lost And no I don't want smart bombs in lowsec because firewalls. And when I say lowsec I really mean in Faction Warfare Lighting up a smartbomb in factionwarfare gets you booted out very quickly The Navy Osprey changes are spot on. Why would you want to fit two medium neuts? You only need one medium and one small to keep the guy capped out, and realistically that's all you have fitting space for anyway. And no stitch it's not "another" rlml boat with a range bonus, because it's always been a rlml boat with a range bonus and your suggestions would put it back in the dumpster beside the Navy Caracal for another 5 years - so no thanks. If any ship is meant for RLML kiting it's the Navy Osprey, if any RLML ship should lose it's range bonus (and I'm not saying it should) but it would have to be the 10mil isk t1 Caracal - not the 70mil+ navy osprey or we end up with t1 cruisers being better than caldari navy cruisers which is the whole probelm anyway. If a ship were to be changed for missile brawling it could be the Navy Caracal with 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount and a few other tweaks as well, but I'd rather dump it and get a Navy Moa with a range bonus for medium rails instead. I will agree to rephrase the "not another" RLML comment. As the nosprey has been around with those bonuses for some time. That doesnt change the fact that is what it will primarily be used for because of those bonuses. In essence it will be just another rlml ship. The caracal has been relegated to strictly an rlml boat. Doesnt have mids or fitting to brawl properly. The nosprey does though. The advantage of the nosprey is that it has a damage bonus instead of rof bonus like the caracal. This synergizes with rlml better. If they took out the velocity bonus and put in an explosion radius bonus, this would enable HAM brawlers to be do able, or even HML to be viable. That being said, you make a good point about the navy caracal, which is strangely absent from this change when its in worse shape than the nosprey. Id be ok making that into a missile brawler instead. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1160	Posted - 2015.10.29 15:42:34 - [472] - Quote it's because rapids are op.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 234	Posted - 2015.10.29 16:12:33 - [473] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: it's because rapids are op. Rapids should get their fitting cost swapped with HAM's/Torps and that buffs the weak missiles and nerfs rapid fits at the same time. Torps would still need a big application buff, and HAM's would also need an application buff because they really don't work right on cruiser size hulls. Then we can have some tough choices, but right now Rapids are the only missiles that work properly on cruiser size hulls so everyone uses them instead Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 689	Posted - 2015.10.29 16:23:56 - [474] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: it's because rapids are op. Rapids should get their fitting cost swapped with HAM's/Torps and that buffs the weak missiles and nerfs rapid fits at the same time. Torps would still need a big application buff, and HAM's would also need an application buff because they really don't work right on cruiser size hulls. Then we can have some tough choices, but right now Rapids are the only missiles that work properly on cruiser size hulls so everyone uses them instead I treat HAMs and torps like blasters. They work best inside web range. As for rapid lights you can quite cheaply build an overheater tengu that does 1000dps, reps 240k effective hitpoints from a single XLASB etc etc etc. Once I started using torps like the sledgehammers they are things began working out for me much better, crash in to scram range and engage. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 896	Posted - 2015.10.29 16:42:07 - [475] - Quote Oh my, I had no idea that my precious Hookbill was in such a bad spot I was pinged on SiSi the other day for some frigate duels and I was flying the Hookbill for the first time in ages so I went for a shield buffer fit and tried both light missiles and rockets. They both felt okay to me but when I heard armor Hookbill it makes my brain hurt - alot. By the way, I am still waiting for the better heavy assault, heavy, cruise, citadel cruise missile and torpedo and citadel torpedo values you promised CCP. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Catherine Laartii State Protectorate Caldari State 611	Posted - 2015.10.29 22:11:25 - [476] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: W0lf Crendraven wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: I will continue to say this again as many times as I need to until it gets acknowledged: The Hookbill's problem is NOT dps. IT'S THE DAMN FITTING SPACE! Compared to even other t1 frigs, it's subpar. I am going to lay this out for anyone who doesn't understand how BAD a problem this is. 1. The hookbill has an extra bonused weapon over its navy faction counterparts, as well as the highest number of mid slots (5) out of all the navy frigates. Despite this, it only has 5.5 more total cpu than the closest competitor, the Navy Comet, and less powergrid than ANY of the other 3, (50 pg each), wheres the Hookbill pushes barely over 46. 2. It cannot make use of all of its mid slots without investing heavily into CPU modules even IF you have top skills. God forbid you want to fit a tank on it; the 3rd missile launcher takes up much of the cpu needed for the mids (compare to the Firetail, which barely uses any cpu at all for autocannons), and you end up having to fit at least 1 power grid module or rig to fit JUST 3 rocket launchers, a mwd, and a medium shield extender. To start with, you HAVE to fit a power grid mod. Then you HAVE to fit a cpu mod if you want to make full use of your mids. 3. It really says something that the only really widely-used fits for the hookbill consist of armor/scramkite setups. As atrocious as it is normally to fit armor builds of any kind on a caldari ship, it's a goddamn travesty that it's the only one that reliably works without loading up on fitting modules. 4. You cannot, i repeat, CANNOT fit an effective light missile build without completely negating dps in favor of fitting modules. While capacitor remains an issue at any level, kiting builds tend to fill up their mid slots with such goodies as damps, tracking disruptors, and the occasional TP for a roaming gang. Generally it is to be expected that such fits on any frigate that aren't specialized for it will run out of capacitor fairly quickly, but it's particularly problematic for a combat frigate with 5 mid slots that can't really use them all that well to begin with. 5. With all this in mind, there are only two realistic options for a rebalance: Either drop a launcher and increase the bonus to 50% kinetic dmg and 40% dmg for em, therm, and explosive with a small increase in CPU, or retain your current idea but add a moderate to significant increase in powergrid and CPU. Either way it is absolutely necessary that the base PG and CPU get a bump. And for anyone wondering, i am not just talking out my ass here. I've been in calmil on and off for years, and anyone who has talked to me for any length of time knows i am absolutely obsessed about fit crafting. I KNOW this ship, and i can tell you as much as i want to love it, it remains craptastic due to anemic fitting space. This NEEDS to change. Thats what keeps it interesting though, hookbill will be very strong after the changes anyways, with endless fitting it would be op. It's not endless fitting; just bringing it up to the fitting space of the others is what i want. As it stands, you really can't use light missiles on it, and it's obscene that you can't really fit a good build without any fitting mods or rigs. Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that. ...you don't nerf something that's crippled to begin with to bring it up to normal. It's like saying that giving someone without legs a wheelchair means you need to take a wheel away from it for 'balance'. That makes NO sense.
Catherine Laartii State Protectorate Caldari State 611	Posted - 2015.10.29 22:21:50 - [477] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: W0lf Crendraven wrote: Its not, or you would have to nerf it elsewhere to make up for that. What's your agenda? Clearly nothing to do with ship balance, or a fair lp store Faction Frigates usage from z killboard 1. Navy Slicer: 41,281 destroyed = 412 281 000 lp 2. Fed Navy Comet: 39,150 destroyed = 391 500 000 lp 3. Fleet Firetail: 21,435 destroyed = 214 350 000 lp 4. Navy Hookbill: 11,337 destroyed = 113 370 000 lp going from 6 to 6.75 turrets is not going to fix that. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6124854#post6124854 He's fine with the Fleet Vigil... "because lml kiting is in a really bad place" Fleet Vigil Fittings: 38 PWG, 190 CPU Not OP according to him Faster hull, 15m3 drone bay, 50% web bonus but still not OP according to W0lf Hookbill fittings: 37PWG, 165CPU has to fit an extra launcher,an extra midslot, less low slots for fitting mods, slower hull, no drones, no web range bonus no application bonus... but this ship would be OP if it got a fittings buff. points and bounces up and down emphatically "See? See?! He gets it! HE GETS IT!"
Idame Isqua Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 8	Posted - 2015.10.30 11:48:35 - [478] - Quote I agree with all this First though Caldari faction ship needs a viable hull for fleets Secondly it then needs a viable hull for 1v1s The VNI aka low skill Ishtar, is light years ahead of the navy caracal anyone heard of it being used in a fleet? I'm in calmil and I've never seen a fleet of them, they are rarely flown And the navy exequror is far ahead of the no(nexistent)sprey I see navy exes at least once a week, I've never ever ever seen someone fly a nosprey I like some of the ideas put forward Lets compare the VNI (sentries) with RLML... o wait no don't do that. Ok lets compare HM/HAMS with... nah lets not they are only any use in the class above or against rats medium size missiles need a boost/revamp and the hookbill clearly the worst navy frigate, is pitted against the comet clearly the best. My fitting examples where just lazy comparisons. But I still believe they prove a valid point, the vexor is better at doing anything But I believe they make clear what everyone knows The NOSPREY buffs don't go far enough, taking it from never flown to flown for a laugh levels. While the navy caracal is left being terrible and a worse choice than the t1 hull by a clear margin. And the hookbill is being taken from never flown tier to maybe for a laugh tier, o wait every other ship in its class gets a buff, so it will still be terrible. 2s of researching kill boards and markets is all it takes to figure this out woe and behold ships are balanced based on in game usages though and remembering this all ties into galmil vs calmil in eves most active warzone calmil has rubbish ships and therefore has rubbish LP conversion rates, therefore calmil LP has no demand, therefore none undocks to get it These changes had potential to create some balance, but it seems clearly wasted already. Quite a few people think caldari ships are a bit of a joke, but these new shield effects will look good albeit they seems targeted at the pve highsec crowd. Who clearly aren't losing many ships. I would be interested if CCP realised information on how much each navy faction hull did in DPS and took, and if it was to/from other players or npcs. Or even just who was doing the damage to shield, armour, and hulls in the cluster. But everyone can just look at the kill boards/markets anyway. Caldari, great for solo PvE... I guess I can always ask myself... can bring my drake.
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 12:04:23 - [479] - Quote Just read the new Punisher stats. Looks Like the AC punisher will make a return!!! What with the extra low slot and 4 turrets oh yeah! The universe is my playground
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 240	Posted - 2015.10.30 21:44:10 - [480] - Quote Idame Isqua wrote: I agree with all this First though Caldari faction ship needs a viable hull for fleets Secondly it then needs a viable hull for 1v1s I'm always the first to speak up for Caldari but the Navy Osprey is really good after these changes , still good for kiting maybe it could even scram kite if you want. It's got speed and agillity + decent dps + utillity highs + 6 mids for range control and/or tank. It's way better than you seem to think, clearly better than the t1 caracal, far superior to the the Navy Caracal, you couldn't ask for a better solo/small gang cruiser. I agree with the rest, I don't know why nothing has been done with the Navy Caracal but I'm hoping it's because they plan to swap it for a Navy Moa with Optimal and dmg bonuses which would be your fleet doctrine. Then give Stabber Fleet Issue more pwg for 425mm autocannons and 1600 plate, change the 5% rof to 10% dmg for better dps/alpha and we have full line up of good Navy Cruisers. Some will be better or more useful than others but overall it would be balanced between the races: VNI way out front of course but somewhat balanced by the fact the Navy Exeq is limited. Caldari would have two very good cruisers, Nosprey for solo and small gang, Navy Moa for sniper doctinres. Minmattar would have the already good ScyFi, and the Stabber would be one of the best with 4k alpha and pretty fast lock time it would work be amazing alpha doctrine, or solo brawler with autocannons. Amarr already have two good navy cruisers. To summarise for Navy cruisers what i'd like to see: 1) Navy Caracal changed for a Navy Moa 2) Stabber get enough PG so it can fit 1600plate with 425mm autocannons and prop mod for brawling, or arty fit for alpha gangs. Also change ROF bonus to 10% damage bonus in line with the excellent BC changes giving minnie a standout medium projectile Cruiser. 3) Either nerf VNI and buff Navy Exeq, or leave them as they are. For frigates I would have taken the dps and selectable damage buff on the Hookbill as a step in the right direction, but that was before I seen the Navy Ewar frigs, and given the state of them bastards there's no way. Gallente will get two of the best by far, both the Navy Maulus and Comet outclass the Hookbill and Griffin by miles, while Amarr not only get what looks to me like the weakest of the lot in the shape of Navy Crucifier but the Slicer will also be supplanted by the Fleet Vigil as strong but affordable kiter. Changes I'd like to see for faction frigs: 1) Navy Griffen and Navy Crucifer lose the -85% range gimp. It's ridiculous and unheard of, this is non-negotiable. If they're worried about these being annoying to fight they're absolutely right... but they'll definitely be less oppressive than a drone scram kiter with +50% range to scram, or a lml kiter that's just slightly slower than a Garmur, does 160dps cold, 20km defensive web, and an application bonus thrown in for good measure. If you're going to make two OP almost untouchable ships might as well let the other two use their ewar and be done with it. The Navy Griffin will basically use ecm to disengage from kiters making him an unattractive target, while the Navy Crucifer will be able to kite or force players into brawl range if he wants. Either get used to that or scrap the whole idea, do not gimp two races while the other two are allowed to ponce around in unfightable pwnships 2) Make the EWAR frigs cost 30-40k lp so the standard Navy frigs are there as a cheap alternative. The idea that these can be mixed in with existing frigs when they have pirate ship bonuses like 50% web and scram range is crazy. This would also make them more attractive targets and less prone to abuse. 3) Navy Griffin and Navy Vigil lose ALL drones. Navy Crucifier +5 drone bandwidth +10 dronebay. Navy Maulus speed nerf please so it's not auto win or at worst never lose for anyone who knows what they're doing. 4) +2PG and +15CPU for Hookbill, +10% base speed. +10 drone bandwidth and dronebay for the Firetail 5) Comet lose it's spare drones. Already gets great dps from hybrids and solid tank too so at least give us a chance to kill off it's drone dps. That would be balanced for me. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Catherine Laartii State Protectorate Caldari State 614	Posted - 2015.10.30 22:28:30 - [481] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Idame Isqua wrote: I agree with all this First though Caldari faction ship needs a viable hull for fleets Secondly it then needs a viable hull for 1v1s I'm always the first to speak up for Caldari but the Navy Osprey is really good after these changes , still good for kiting maybe it could even scram kite if you want. It's got speed and agillity + decent dps + utillity highs + 6 mids for range control and/or tank. It's way better than you seem to think, clearly better than the t1 caracal, far superior to the the Navy Caracal, you couldn't ask for a better solo/small gang cruiser. I agree with the rest, I don't know why nothing has been done with the Navy Caracal but I'm hoping it's because they plan to swap it for a Navy Moa with Optimal and dmg bonuses which would be your fleet doctrine. Then give Stabber Fleet Issue more pwg for 425mm autocannons and 1600 plate, change the 5% rof to 10% dmg for better dps/alpha and we have full line up of good Navy Cruisers. Some will be better or more useful than others but overall it would be balanced between the races: VNI way out front of course but somewhat balanced by the fact the Navy Exeq is limited. Caldari would have two very good cruisers, Nosprey for solo and small gang, Navy Moa for sniper doctinres. Minmattar would have the already good ScyFi, and the Stabber would be one of the best with 4k alpha and pretty fast lock time it would work be amazing alpha doctrine, or solo brawler with autocannons. Amarr already have two good navy cruisers. To summarise for Navy cruisers what i'd like to see: 1) Navy Caracal changed for a Navy Moa 2) Stabber get enough PG so it can fit 1600plate with 425mm autocannons and prop mod for brawling, or arty fit for alpha gangs. Also change ROF bonus to 10% damage bonus in line with the excellent BC changes giving minnie a standout medium projectile Cruiser. 3) Either nerf VNI and buff Navy Exeq, or leave them as they are. For frigates I would have taken the dps and selectable damage buff on the Hookbill as a step in the right direction, but that was before I seen the Navy Ewar frigs, and given the state of them bastards there's no way. Gallente will get two of the best by far, both the Navy Maulus and Comet outclass the Hookbill and Griffin by miles, while Amarr not only get what looks to me like the weakest of the lot in the shape of Navy Crucifier but the Slicer will also be supplanted by the Fleet Vigil as strong but affordable kiter. Changes I'd like to see for faction frigs: 1) Navy Griffen and Navy Crucifer lose the -85% range gimp. It's ridiculous and unheard of, this is non-negotiable. If they're worried about these being annoying to fight they're absolutely right... but they'll definitely be less oppressive than a drone scram kiter with +50% range to scram, or a lml kiter that's just slightly slower than a Garmur, does 160dps cold, 20km defensive web, and an application bonus thrown in for good measure. If you're going to make two OP almost untouchable ships might as well let the other two use their ewar and be done with it. The Navy Griffin will basically use ecm to disengage from kiters making him an unattractive target, while the Navy Crucifer will be able to kite or force players into brawl range if he wants. Either get used to that or scrap the whole idea, do not gimp two races while the other two are allowed to ponce around in unfightable pwnships 2) Make the EWAR frigs cost 30-40k lp so the standard Navy frigs are there as a cheap alternative. The idea that these can be mixed in with existing frigs when they have pirate ship bonuses like 50% web and scram range is crazy. This would also make them more attractive targets and less prone to abuse. 3) Navy Griffin and Navy Vigil lose ALL drones. Navy Crucifier +5 drone bandwidth +10 dronebay. Navy Maulus speed nerf please so it's not auto win or at worst never lose for anyone who knows what they're doing. 4) +2PG and +15CPU for Hookbill, +10% base speed. +10 drone bandwidth and dronebay for the Firetail 5) Comet lose it's spare drones. Already gets great dps from hybrids and solid tank too so at least give us a chance to kill off it's drone dps. That would be balanced for me. Idk about the navy moa idea; the caracal navy issue just needs a tad more love to work properly. I'd say giving it a 6/6/3 slot layout with the application bonus swapped for a resist bonus would go a long friggin way to helping it becoming interesting. As per the frigs, a +3 pg increase would bring the hookbill in line with the firetail and comet, so no major qualms there. As weird as it is that we don't have a good rail boat, i think them changing out the navy exeq to have 10% damage per level and 10% optimal range per level would be an acceptable route to go.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 241	Posted - 2015.10.31 01:45:27 - [482] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Idame Isqua wrote: I agree with all this First though Caldari faction ship needs a viable hull for fleets Secondly it then needs a viable hull for 1v1s I'm always the first to speak up for Caldari but the Navy Osprey is really good after these changes , still good for kiting maybe it could even scram kite if you want. It's got speed and agillity + decent dps + utillity highs + 6 mids for range control and/or tank. It's way better than you seem to think, clearly better than the t1 caracal, far superior to the the Navy Caracal, you couldn't ask for a better solo/small gang cruiser. I agree with the rest, I don't know why nothing has been done with the Navy Caracal but I'm hoping it's because they plan to swap it for a Navy Moa with Optimal and dmg bonuses which would be your fleet doctrine. Then give Stabber Fleet Issue more pwg for 425mm autocannons and 1600 plate, change the 5% rof to 10% dmg for better dps/alpha and we have full line up of good Navy Cruisers. Some will be better or more useful than others but overall it would be balanced between the races: VNI way out front of course but somewhat balanced by the fact the Navy Exeq is limited. Caldari would have two very good cruisers, Nosprey for solo and small gang, Navy Moa for sniper doctinres. Minmattar would have the already good ScyFi, and the Stabber would be one of the best with 4k alpha and pretty fast lock time it would work be amazing alpha doctrine, or solo brawler with autocannons. Amarr already have two good navy cruisers. To summarise for Navy cruisers what i'd like to see: 1) Navy Caracal changed for a Navy Moa 2) Stabber get enough PG so it can fit 1600plate with 425mm autocannons and prop mod for brawling, or arty fit for alpha gangs. Also change ROF bonus to 10% damage bonus in line with the excellent BC changes giving minnie a standout medium projectile Cruiser. 3) Either nerf VNI and buff Navy Exeq, or leave them as they are. For frigates I would have taken the dps and selectable damage buff on the Hookbill as a step in the right direction, but that was before I seen the Navy Ewar frigs, and given the state of them bastards there's no way. Gallente will get two of the best by far, both the Navy Maulus and Comet outclass the Hookbill and Griffin by miles, while Amarr not only get what looks to me like the weakest of the lot in the shape of Navy Crucifier but the Slicer will also be supplanted by the Fleet Vigil as strong but affordable kiter. Changes I'd like to see for faction frigs: 1) Navy Griffen and Navy Crucifer lose the -85% range gimp. It's ridiculous and unheard of, this is non-negotiable. If they're worried about these being annoying to fight they're absolutely right... but they'll definitely be less oppressive than a drone scram kiter with +50% range to scram, or a lml kiter that's just slightly slower than a Garmur, does 160dps cold, 20km defensive web, and an application bonus thrown in for good measure. If you're going to make two OP almost untouchable ships might as well let the other two use their ewar and be done with it. The Navy Griffin will basically use ecm to disengage from kiters making him an unattractive target, while the Navy Crucifer will be able to kite or force players into brawl range if he wants. Either get used to that or scrap the whole idea, do not gimp two races while the other two are allowed to ponce around in unfightable pwnships 2) Make the EWAR frigs cost 30-40k lp so the standard Navy frigs are there as a cheap alternative. The idea that these can be mixed in with existing frigs when they have pirate ship bonuses like 50% web and scram range is crazy. This would also make them more attractive targets and less prone to abuse. 3) Navy Griffin and Navy Vigil lose ALL drones. Navy Crucifier +5 drone bandwidth +10 dronebay. Navy Maulus speed nerf please so it's not auto win or at worst never lose for anyone who knows what they're doing. 4) +2PG and +15CPU for Hookbill, +10% base speed. +10 drone bandwidth and dronebay for the Firetail 5) Comet lose it's spare drones. Already gets great dps from hybrids and solid tank too so at least give us a chance to kill off it's drone dps. That would be balanced for me. Idk about the navy moa idea; the caracal navy issue just needs a tad more love to work properly. I'd say giving it a 6/6/3 slot layout with the application bonus swapped for a resist bonus would go a long friggin way to helping it becoming interesting. As per the frigs, a +3 pg increase would bring the hookbill in line with the firetail and comet, so no major qualms there. As weird as it is that we don't have a good rail boat, i think them changing out the navy exeq to have 10% damage per level and 10% optimal range per level would be an acceptable route to go. jesus caldari bro's you're killing me here. Navy Moa would be a good addition, you don't like it, other dude doesn't like the Navy Osprey, w0lf just likes everything. But seriously giving Gallente hybrid optimal bonus is not acceptable - it's outrageous. Like giving lasers to the rust. Gallente are blasters with tracking/dps bonuses and big drone bays, Caldari get the sniper boats, some of the best Caldari hulls are snipers: Cormorant, Eagle, Ferox, Rokh, Rail Tengu, Sniper Harpy... a Navy cruiser with optimal bonus is exactly what Caldari need now with the Navy Osprey looking good. Tell me about your Navy Caracal... tell me what I'm meant to do with that? Can't brawl, can't kite, can't break an active tank... what's the point of it? What is it's purpose in life, in a world of ScyFi's and Orthuruses, cheap t1 Caracals, and soon to be Navy Ospreys... what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows? Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 254	Posted - 2015.10.31 16:25:12 - [483] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows? Explode a little slower than someone with 3 lows and no resist bonus? Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 967	Posted - 2015.10.31 23:53:42 - [484] - Quote Can someone explain to me the purpose of removing low slots from the Gila and Worm? I get that they need balance, but I'm wondering if dropping a mid slot would have been more functional to nerf their tank, as opposed to their DPS. I don't think their DPS is the issue, but I could be wrong. That said, I still miss the days when the Rattlesnake could passive tank @ 2k hp/s with a t2 fit, and still have feasable dps, but maybe that was OP... Who knows...
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1236	Posted - 2015.11.01 02:48:13 - [485] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Can someone explain to me the purpose of removing low slots from the Gila and Worm? I get that they need balance, but I'm wondering if dropping a mid slot would have been more functional to nerf their tank, as opposed to their DPS. I don't think their DPS is the issue, but I could be wrong. That said, I still miss the days when the Rattlesnake could passive tank @ 2k hp/s with a t2 fit, and still have feasable dps, but maybe that was OP... Who knows... Whilst their tank is a little too strong the main issue is their DPS and not only the amount but also the projection and flexibility along with it, the 2 uber drones with cruiser tank and the range they have is OP but the main issue is the DPS even this nerf won't reduce it enough but its better than nothing, but the -1 slot is consistent with all droneboats and the rattle should get the same treatment as all other droneboats have this minor drawback why should guristas get an exception. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 967	Posted - 2015.11.01 03:09:33 - [486] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Whilst their tank is a little too strong the main issue is their DPS and not only the amount but also the projection and flexibility along with it, the 2 uber drones with cruiser tank and the range they have is OP but the main issue is the DPS even this nerf won't reduce it enough but its better than nothing, but the -1 slot is consistent with all droneboats and the rattle should get the same treatment as all other droneboats have this minor drawback why should guristas get an exception. It was an honest question. I wasn't sure on what the main issue was.
Catherine Laartii State Protectorate Caldari State 617	Posted - 2015.11.01 09:09:39 - [487] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: jesus caldari bro's you're killing me here. Navy Moa would be a good addition, you don't like it, other dude doesn't like the Navy Osprey, w0lf just likes everything. But seriously giving Gallente hybrid optimal bonus is not acceptable - it's outrageous. Like giving lasers to the rust. Gallente are blasters with tracking/dps bonuses and big drone bays, Caldari get the sniper boats, some of the best Caldari hulls are snipers: Cormorant, Eagle, Ferox, Rokh, Rail Tengu, Sniper Harpy... a Navy cruiser with optimal bonus is exactly what Caldari need now with the Navy Osprey looking good. Tell me about your Navy Caracal... tell me what I'm meant to do with that? Can't brawl, can't kite, can't break an active tank... what's the point of it? What is it's purpose in life, in a world of ScyFi's and Orthuruses, cheap t1 Caracals, and soon to be Navy Ospreys... what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows? idk, sport an actual tank? Making it a smaller version of the Scorp navy is fine since the scorp navy does well enough on its own. As for the navy exeq, there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving it an optimal range bonus. While generally it's limited to Roden ships, saying that rails are exclusive to Caldari and Blasters are exclusive to Gallente is blatantly false, since hybrids are interchangeable between the two of them by design. The issue limiting a navy caracal with resists specifically would just be fitting, the same goes for the hookbill. I just don't see it being atrocious enough to merit them completely changing out the ship; all it needs is a little more consistency and focus, and having it be in the same progression line as the navy scorpion rather than the navy raven seems just fine to me, especially from a survivability standpoint. Maybe something like a shield equivalent of the navy aug would be in order? While i can see that having a resist bonus works out well enough for active tanking as well as buffer, it's kind of odd we don't see a ship in the shield lineup apart from the tengu with a shield HP bonus. Either way i'm happy with a tank bonus on it.
Catherine Laartii State Protectorate Caldari State 617	Posted - 2015.11.01 09:16:14 - [488] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Harvey James wrote: Whilst their tank is a little too strong the main issue is their DPS and not only the amount but also the projection and flexibility along with it, the 2 uber drones with cruiser tank and the range they have is OP but the main issue is the DPS even this nerf won't reduce it enough but its better than nothing, but the -1 slot is consistent with all droneboats and the rattle should get the same treatment as all other droneboats have this minor drawback why should guristas get an exception. It was an honest question. I wasn't sure on what the main issue was. To put it bluntly, they were way over the top with how they were being used. Gilas were/are just good at whatever you made them do, especially pvp, and the worm had little to no drawback for the amount of firepower and survivability it fielded. The low slot reduction was appropriate, as was the CPU due to the loss of a low negating the need for extra fitting. They're not going to become crap after this; in fact the only real thing we'll see is a reduction in effective dps that was needed, and limiting the insane utility of the Gila. The rattler didn't receive the same treatment since it's in an alright place relative to other faction battleships, and whether or not it deserves to lose a slot is irrelevant since its role and performance really wouldn't change, and neither would it impact the ship negatively since it already has an abundance of low slots. TLDR; don't worry they'll work just fine after the patch; they just won't hit quite as hard.
Catherine Laartii State Protectorate Caldari State 617	Posted - 2015.11.01 09:17:16 - [489] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows? Explode a little slower than someone with 3 lows and no resist bonus? Tank better assuming you get the fitting space to go along with it.
typhoon Rinah Panthian Tactics 1	Posted - 2015.11.01 10:29:10 - [490] - Quote So are we ever going to see Navy Destroyers?
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 897	Posted - 2015.11.01 12:33:51 - [491] - Quote typhoon Rinah wrote: So are we ever going to see Navy Destroyers? No. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 897	Posted - 2015.11.01 12:45:20 - [492] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: ...To put it bluntly, they were way over the top with how they were being used. Gilas were/are just good at whatever you made them do, especially pvp, and the worm had little to no drawback for the amount of firepower and survivability it fielded... Translation: Gila killed Ibis, nerf Gila bwaaaaah. I hate to break it to each and everyone crying for nerfs, pirate faction class ships are not for noobies. They are for veterans and not taken lightly. Pirate > else. How about a different approach? Instead of nerfing ships that used to be a joke for about decade, have them require 100+ million skillpoints to properly reflect the power they have since the two different racial trains you have to have doesn't quite do the job apperently. And while we are crying nerfs so much and dps to much and whatever uneducated whine is popular these days, make all dps even. The vigilant does more than 1000dps, nerf vigilant. bwaaaaahhh. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Odithia Ministry of War Amarr Empire 82	Posted - 2015.11.01 13:31:18 - [493] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Pirate > else. T3 > else*
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1298	Posted - 2015.11.01 14:12:38 - [494] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Pirate > else. No, you got that one wrong. There's a lot more to that. The progression from T1 to T2/pirate/T3 is just a differentiation into various emphasized traits of ships, iE projection, resilence and mitigation for T2, mobility and raw dps for pirate, flexibility or adaptability - even though just in theory - for T3s that effectively makes them somewhat viable at everything at once or better than T2 at the HAC thing in particular. Pirate ships aren't generally outpferoming T2 vessels of similar size, they're just offering a fundamentally different approach to pvp, T2 moves as a durable unit while pirate tends to move close and fight in pointrange (even if that's 40km cold for a machariel and 60km cold for an orthrus, or 20km railkite vigilants).
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 620	Posted - 2015.11.01 14:40:24 - [495] - Quote typhoon Rinah wrote: So are we ever going to see Navy Destroyers? Well they are coming out with destroyers that utilize MJD. After im hoping no more small ships for awhile. We have the new exploration frigate, new logi frigs, new fleet frigs, recently released t3d... please for the love of Bob stop introducing new frig/dessies and introduce something new that is actually missing. Like pirate BCs, or more faction BCs. Or the missing pirate faction that is caldari/minmatar. Id like to see another ship line using projectiles. We have enough missile/drone ships as it is. TL;DR: No more small ships please Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 242	Posted - 2015.11.01 15:51:54 - [496] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: jesus caldari bro's you're killing me here. Navy Moa would be a good addition, you don't like it, other dude doesn't like the Navy Osprey, w0lf just likes everything. But seriously giving Gallente hybrid optimal bonus is not acceptable - it's outrageous. Like giving lasers to the rust. Gallente are blasters with tracking/dps bonuses and big drone bays, Caldari get the sniper boats, some of the best Caldari hulls are snipers: Cormorant, Eagle, Ferox, Rokh, Rail Tengu, Sniper Harpy... a Navy cruiser with optimal bonus is exactly what Caldari need now with the Navy Osprey looking good. Tell me about your Navy Caracal... tell me what I'm meant to do with that? Can't brawl, can't kite, can't break an active tank... what's the point of it? What is it's purpose in life, in a world of ScyFi's and Orthuruses, cheap t1 Caracals, and soon to be Navy Ospreys... what am I meant to do with a resist bonus and 3 lows? idk, sport an actual tank? Making it a smaller version of the Scorp navy is fine since the scorp navy does well enough on its own. As for the navy exeq, there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving it an optimal range bonus. While generally it's limited to Roden ships, saying that rails are exclusive to Caldari and Blasters are exclusive to Gallente is blatantly false, since hybrids are interchangeable between the two of them by design. The issue limiting a navy caracal with resists specifically would just be fitting, the same goes for the hookbill. I just don't see it being atrocious enough to merit them completely changing out the ship; all it needs is a little more consistency and focus, and having it be in the same progression line as the navy scorpion rather than the navy raven seems just fine to me, especially from a survivability standpoint. Maybe something like a shield equivalent of the navy aug would be in order? While i can see that having a resist bonus works out well enough for active tanking as well as buffer, it's kind of odd we don't see a ship in the shield lineup apart from the tengu with a shield HP bonus. Either way i'm happy with a tank bonus on it. It needs to be able to kill things first though. HAM's look good on paper but they are pretty bad on cruisers, if they take away the application bonus 90% of people will automatically fit Rapid lights for more fitting resources and better application, but those won't work well either because the ROF bonus is wasted on them. When you take away a low slot you're losing even more firepower because the 3rd BCU will be lost. We're talking 262 sustained dps with fury after reload, and 437 burst dps, that's probably the lowest dps navy cruiser. How special would the tank be to make up for this? Not very, your tank will be about 55k ehp, that's not enough to make up for the weak firepower. It's also quite slow and has a huge sig radius so you won't be avoiding much dps. I did a quick Navy Exeq fit and I got 834dps with Ions, 32k EHP tank + at least 10k more from medium ancillary armor repper, and that was with full tackle and a cap booster. The Navy Exeq also had half the sig radius and was faster so it mitigates more dps as well meaning the tank is probably about equal but the dps is several times better. If you want to fit a Navy Vexor for brawling you can do 70k EHP tank, and still do over 600dps +medium and small neut, or you can go all out and get 1000dps. Aug Navy does 100k ehp tank although it's very slow and has poor dps aswell. If you want a HAM brawler, it could to be something like this: 25% bonus to HAM and Heavy Missile damage 5% bonus to Explosion Radius 4 Launchers 7 Mids 4 Lows 600dps with max skills, Rage HAM's, and 3 BCU's 510dps with faction HAM's. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3358	Posted - 2015.11.01 23:33:56 - [497] - Quote Reminder that energy turret cap usage is not a real bonus Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
Xeator soldiers.fi 63	Posted - 2015.11.02 04:16:58 - [498] - Quote So a while back we got a faction ship balance pass, back when things like the Worm were one of the least used faction frigates. CCP goes ahead and gives them (gurista ships) nice buffs, they become FOTM ships for a while. Now CCP plans on nerfing them? What will be the fate of the ships? Back to being the least used faction *****? Yet the Svipul remains largely untouched?
Owen Levanth Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration 417	Posted - 2015.11.02 11:54:17 - [499] - Quote Has CCP said anything more about the Punisher, or have they doubled down on their numbers? Because there's a nice blaster-fit I want to try as soon as the buffs are there and I would be sad if CCP suddenly decides to give the Punisher a laser-bonus again.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 898	Posted - 2015.11.02 12:05:07 - [500] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: elitatwo wrote: Pirate > else. No, you got that one wrong. There's a lot more to that. The progression from T1 to T2/pirate/T3 is just a differentiation into various emphasized traits of ships, iE projection, resilence and mitigation for T2, mobility and raw dps for pirate, flexibility or adaptability - even though just in theory - for T3s that effectively makes them somewhat viable at everything at once or better than T2 at the HAC thing in particular. Pirate ships aren't generally outpferoming T2 vessels of similar size, they're just offering a fundamentally different approach to pvp, T2 moves as a durable unit while pirate tends to move close and fight in pointrange (even if that's 40km cold for a machariel and 60km cold for an orthrus, or 20km railkite vigilants). Of course there is but I repeated the long explanation so often now and CCP Ytterbium made a deveblog about how this should look with a picture that explains everything very nicely and has been repeatedly posted by Ralph and Shah. I am simply tired to write it all down again and again. So I made a shorter one that should explain the progression good enough. Save the pirates! Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2375	Posted - 2015.11.02 14:45:56 - [501] - Quote Scatim Helicon wrote: Reminder that energy turret cap usage is not a real bonus It mostly isn't when you don't have a second bonus to those same guns on the damn ship. Using high cap ammo for longer can be useful but the damn gun need more than just cap usage bonus for it to be worthwhile. If it had a tracking, optimal or ROF bonus, then it could amount to something. The second bonus being armor resist is the real reason why cap bonus is so wrong. Firing your laser for longer is only useful if those laser, when fitted to this ship outperform the other options available, namely hybrid and projectiles turrets. If laser were really better than the other 2 weapon system while having cap as the real drawback, then the bonus would be meaningful on it's own. Right now, to be worthwhile, the weapon system NEED to have another bonus on the hull.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 898	Posted - 2015.11.02 15:53:13 - [502] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Scatim Helicon wrote: Reminder that energy turret cap usage is not a real bonus It mostly isn't when you don't have a second bonus to those same guns on the damn ship. Using high cap ammo for longer can be useful but the damn gun need more than just cap usage bonus for it to be worthwhile. If it had a tracking, optimal or ROF bonus, then it could amount to something. The second bonus being armor resist is the real reason why cap bonus is so wrong. Firing your laser for longer is only useful if those laser, when fitted to this ship outperform the other options available, namely hybrid and projectiles turrets. If laser were really better than the other 2 weapon system while having cap as the real drawback, then the bonus would be meaningful on it's own. Right now, to be worthwhile, the weapon system NEED to have another bonus on the hull. Phew, I am not the only one and the Abaddon isn't on today's menu but that is what make the Maller and Abaddon such bad ships. While we have a collection of laser-boats done right, those two and the Punisher, well they kinda don't. And no, tanking is not a feature when you have the mobility of a moon. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Arla Sarain 695	Posted - 2015.11.03 01:38:51 - [503] - Quote Gibe Projectile Reload Speed bonus to the Rifter for ultimate badassitude.
Valkin Mordirc 1591	Posted - 2015.11.03 15:35:35 - [504] - Quote elitatwo wrote: How about a different approach? Instead of nerfing ships that used to be a joke for about decade, have them require 100+ million skillpoints to properly reflect the power they have since the two different racial trains you have to have doesn't quite do the job apperently. And while we are crying nerfs so much and dps to much and whatever uneducated whine is popular these days, make all dps even. The vigilant does more than 1000dps, nerf vigilant. bwaaaaahhh. The Gila has Similar DPS to the Vigi, More range than Vigi Better projection than the Vigi A Better Tank to DPS ratio then the Vigi Is less Cap reliant than the Vigi The Vigi Has better range control then the Gila So yeah. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Sotar Lojac Elite Space Dragons 0	Posted - 2015.11.05 06:20:16 - [505] - Quote All I have to say about Orthrus, Gila and the Worm . I was planning on getting one of each. However, I'll wait and see what people say about them after the nerf.
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 410	Posted - 2015.11.05 19:05:48 - [506] - Quote Sotar Lojac wrote: All I have to say about Orthrus, Gila and the Worm . I was planning on getting one of each. However, I'll wait and see what people say about them after the nerf. Nows the best time to get them. If you go and get them now you might even get to kill a couple of AFKS with them. You won't kill anybody still paying attention though because you won't get a fight given how blatantly OP they are. Just saying, if you chase the meta then expect a nerf.
Valkin Mordirc 1595	Posted - 2015.11.07 04:48:55 - [507] - Quote Sotar Lojac wrote: All I have to say about Orthrus, Gila and the Worm . I was planning on getting one of each. However, I'll wait and see what people say about them after the nerf. If you plan on using the Gila for PVP is going to almost completely unchanged. You're not going to lose a whole bunch. For PVE however losing that Lowslot hurts a lot more since most PVE Gila's are Passive Shield fitted. The Worm may be hit a lot harder in a PvP role. The Orthrus I'm guessing is going to be okay, not has powerful as it was, but it still fills it role very well. The Barghest on the other hand is going be BAMF `#DeleteTheWeak`
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1242	Posted - 2015.11.07 16:43:04 - [508] - Quote 47.5km RLML's on Orthrus, OP much?? begs the question why it has range bonuses too light missiles at all really RLML's are OP they should just convert it into a medium assault launcher better tracking and range but less dps than HAM's buff HAM damage nerf its range so its not the same as torps and is actual brawl/tackle range based as its tracking implies. Then lasers get their role back as the best range weapon system, would like too see conflag and scorch range being toned down a bit (build it into the lasers like last time) and improve the T1/faction ammo so there is less extremes and more useful in between ammo types T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1242	Posted - 2015.11.07 16:44:09 - [509] - Quote would like too see a web strength nerf in general say 50% cap and serpentis ships web strength bonus toned down too 5% as 10% is just OP. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Colt Blackhawk bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions 317	Posted - 2015.11.09 17:00:24 - [510] - Quote Buff Hookbill and buff Firetail? Fozzie I have over 500 kills with Hookbills and I can tell you these changes are ***. Hookbill is fine atm, RFF is fine atm, slicer is fine atm. What is not fine is that the comet is completely op. Nerf the comet and there are no changes needed for Hook and RFF. The actual buffs to the Hook are completely OP. This tells you someone who really knows the Hook. Nerf the total op comet and Hook+ RFF will be fine. The Punisher changes are a joke. Total joke. Make the punisher a rocket boat. Edit: List of frigs that really need a buff: -Cruor -Succubus -Executioner -Rifter [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2387	Posted - 2015.11.09 21:25:51 - [511] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Scatim Helicon wrote: Reminder that energy turret cap usage is not a real bonus It mostly isn't when you don't have a second bonus to those same guns on the damn ship. Using high cap ammo for longer can be useful but the damn gun need more than just cap usage bonus for it to be worthwhile. If it had a tracking, optimal or ROF bonus, then it could amount to something. The second bonus being armor resist is the real reason why cap bonus is so wrong. Firing your laser for longer is only useful if those laser, when fitted to this ship outperform the other options available, namely hybrid and projectiles turrets. If laser were really better than the other 2 weapon system while having cap as the real drawback, then the bonus would be meaningful on it's own. Right now, to be worthwhile, the weapon system NEED to have another bonus on the hull. Phew, I am not the only one and the Abaddon isn't on today's menu but that is what make the Maller and Abaddon such bad ships. While we have a collection of laser-boats done right, those two and the Punisher, well they kinda don't. And no, tanking is not a feature when you have the mobility of a moon. Tanking via resist is an ability even if you are as large as a moon when under logi support and have enough EHP to survive an alpha strike. It makes for a good "line" ship but the abbadon is a ship with 1 bonus unless your fit need laser to work (what niche do large laser have?) AND said laser also happen to give you concerning cap issue. If you don't NEED the lasers, then you can solve your cap issue in a more easy way by swapping to any other turret system because they use less cap or none at all anyway. All ship bonus are a feature if you find a legit way to use them. The issue is cap use is not usable when you only have un-bonused guns and other type of guns can do the job with low or no cap use.
Skir Skor Stay Frosty. A Band Apart. 25	Posted - 2015.11.10 00:04:07 - [512] - Quote Tis a sad day when an AC Punisher out dps the Rifter + Slasher
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 361	Posted - 2015.11.10 01:32:51 - [513] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Tanking via resist is an ability even if you are as large as a moon when under logi support and have enough EHP to survive an alpha strike. It makes for a good "line" ship but the abbadon is a ship with 1 bonus unless your fit need laser to work (what niche do large laser have?) AND said laser also happen to give you concerning cap issue. If you don't NEED the lasers, then you can solve your cap issue in a more easy way by swapping to any other turret system because they use less cap or none at all anyway. All ship bonus are a feature if you find a legit way to use them. The issue is cap use is not usable when you only have un-bonused guns and other type of guns can do the job with low or no cap use. The Abaddon sucks because faction BS just get cheaper and cheaper and it's at the point where you should just pony up the extra 150m and get a Navy Apoc. Range bonus functions as a damage bonus, it's got most of the resist bonus baked into having much higher hull/shield/armor stats, it doesn't have fitting problems, it takes 66% damage from bombers, extra low slot, etc etc.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 96	Posted - 2015.11.10 04:02:50 - [514] - Quote Punisher changes are just fine. It shouldn't be a rocket boat, nor does it need a 3rd midslot. It can perform it's niche role very well already, and these changes strengthen that. It doesn't need to be a flexible solo boat, there are plenty of those already. The changes enable many new fitting possibilities that are unique to the ship.
Plofkip Arji De Zwetende Blowfanfare 4	Posted - 2015.11.10 15:52:54 - [515] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: As we keep working and incorporate feedback, it's very possible that some of these changes may be adjusted or removed, or that more could be added. This is also not the complete list of balance changes coming this Winter, keep an eye on this forum section for the latest updates. Any chance of seeing an update to the Corax in this patch?
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1165	Posted - 2015.11.10 18:36:47 - [516] - Quote Plofkip Arji wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: As we keep working and incorporate feedback, it's very possible that some of these changes may be adjusted or removed, or that more could be added. This is also not the complete list of balance changes coming this Winter, keep an eye on this forum section for the latest updates. Any chance of seeing an update to the Corax in this patch? it's never going to happen
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2015.11.10 21:41:02 - [517] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: The changes enable many new fitting possibilities that are unique to the ship. Like?
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 97	Posted - 2015.11.10 22:21:41 - [518] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Like? Dual 400 plate, dual eanm, tripple trimark, plus a repper, for a cruisers worth of armor ehp with a cap stable slow "regen" repair. On a 37 sig frig with a decent 850 ms speed. Can heavy tackle cruisers like no other T1 frig, all for about 5 mil.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 242	Posted - 2015.11.11 04:42:43 - [519] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Like? Dual 400 plate, dual eanm, tripple trimark, plus a repper, for a cruisers worth of armor ehp with a cap stable repair. On a 37 sig frig with a decent 850 ms afterburner speed. Can heavy tackle cruisers and larger like no other T1 frig, all for about 5 mil. with its 17k ehp ability to tank 63dps and 100dps with terrible range and 820m/s nothing cruiser size is going to care.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 97	Posted - 2015.11.11 05:21:10 - [520] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: with its 17k ehp ability to tank 63dps and 100dps with terrible range and 820m/s nothing cruiser size is going to care. Cruiser wont have to care for long, as it will be dead when the dps lands. What does it matter what its own range and dps is, its the heavy tackle, its not solo. Its performance as a heavy tackler beats anything else out there in that price range. 19k of buffer with fleet boosts is insane by itself, works perfectly as it is now. Add on the slow regen of a stable repper and your adding another 300 ehp per 4.5 sec. 120 dps of it's own isn't shabby at all for a T1 frig that's put 99% of its fitting space into tank.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 242	Posted - 2015.11.11 05:34:33 - [521] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Lady Rift wrote: with its 17k ehp ability to tank 63dps and 100dps with terrible range and 820m/s nothing cruiser size is going to care. Cruiser wont have to care for long, as it will be dead when the dps lands. What does it matter what its own range and dps is, its the heavy tackle, its not solo. Its performance as a heavy tackler beats anything else out there in that price range. 19k of buffer with fleet boosts is insane by itself, works perfectly as it is now. Add on the slow regen of a stable repper and your adding another 300 ehp per 4.5 sec. 120 dps of it's own isn't shabby at all for a T1 frig that's put 99% of its fitting space into tank. if you are going with a gang why not bring a real tackle ship. that doesnt move like a brick.
Blitz Hacker Rained Out Fantasy Larpers 4	Posted - 2015.11.11 05:42:48 - [522] - Quote Gila nerf is pointless.. it makes the dps on the gila subpar and something of what the drake currently is today.. a unbreakable tank boat with semi junk dps. Imo the Gila rebalance needs to leave the slot layouts alone and remove the 500% hit point boost to the medium drones.. just give it a 5x damage boost.. not hp boost. leaves the ship as a mid level heavy tanked pve ship, but viable in pvp. At the moment attacking a gila's drones is pointless and suicidal as it is. The ship is very imbalanced in pvp with the huge tank, good damage application. and the drones have too many hps and the drone bay is too big. I believe you can fit 8 (4 flights of medium drones, 2 each flight) Attacking the drones atm is pointless you will be long dead before you get through 3 flights nevermind 4. losing the hp buff on the drones would mitigate alot of the damage in pvp, and make it about balanced or on par with other pirate faction cruisers of it's class. My thoughts; Not yours.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 97	Posted - 2015.11.11 05:46:37 - [523] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: if you are going with a gang why not bring a real tackle ship. that doesnt move like a brick. Because the gang might just be 2-3 people, and you want a cheap tackle that can take enormous punishment (pun intended), for a tiny throwaway price. The grid might not be a single cruiser that's easy to kite, it might have other **** on it that's going to catch you, and being able to just pin down the primary while sustaining a solid beating for a minute or more is invaluable. It doesn't have to have high speed, it just needs to lock onto your average cruiser/bc/bs, and orbit it while being tickled by drones for all eternity. A mwd cruiser with its mwd shut off isn't going to be outrunning your 800 m/s, whether you're webbed or not, nor is your blaster-tier range a problem when your just orbiting it at 500m anyway. It is a "real tackle ship", its a budget heavy tackle that can do the job immensely well for its tiny price.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 242	Posted - 2015.11.11 06:02:16 - [524] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Lady Rift wrote: if you are going with a gang why not bring a real tackle ship. that doesnt move like a brick. Because the gang might just be 2-3 people, and you want a cheap tackle that can take enormous punishment (pun intended), for a tiny throwaway price. The grid might not be a single cruiser that's easy to kite, it might have other **** on it that's going to catch you, and being able to just pin down the primary while sustaining a solid beating for a minute or more is invaluable. It doesn't have to have high speed, it just needs to lock onto your average cruiser/bc/bs, and orbit it while being tickled by drones for all eternity. A mwd cruiser with its mwd shut off isn't going to be outrunning your 800 m/s, whether you're webbed or not, nor is your blaster-tier range a problem when your just orbiting it at 500m anyway. It is a "real tackle ship", its a budget heavy tackle that can do the job immensely well for its tiny price. its 9km scram range that slow boats at 800m/s. Any mwd cruiser wont we caught by this. This can't even keep up with some ab cruisers.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 97	Posted - 2015.11.11 06:52:44 - [525] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: its 9km scram range that slow boats at 800m/s. Any mwd cruiser wont we caught by this. This can't even keep up with some ab cruisers. They get caught. Point is, that once they are, they find it very difficult to take the tackle out, so you usually have all day. The solid capacitor makes it surprisingly resistant to neuting also, and to frigs/dessies landing that are friendly to the tackled cruiser. It's a fantastic heavy tackle that's flexible enough to hold large or small targets and to survive on grids full of red long enough to make ten times its monies worth.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 242	Posted - 2015.11.11 13:57:22 - [526] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Lady Rift wrote: its 9km scram range that slow boats at 800m/s. Any mwd cruiser wont we caught by this. This can't even keep up with some ab cruisers. They get caught. Point is, that once they are, they find it very difficult to take the tackle out, so you usually have all day. The solid capacitor makes it surprisingly resistant to neuting also, and to frigs/dessies landing that are friendly to the tackled cruiser. It's a fantastic heavy tackle that's flexible enough to hold large or small targets and to survive on grids full of red long enough to make ten times its monies worth. Other frigs will do other things better, especially speed of course, but nothing comes close to the survivability. That's what "heavy tackle" means to me anyway. It's not a kiter, its an ab, scram, close orbit, mega plated heavy tackle. When ya can tank so much that a caracal with rapid lights and 3 bcu's, firing into your lowest resist, cant down you before going into it's forever reload, then ya heavy tackling well. Ya can kill the target with a single rail cormorant at that point. For 5mil, that aint bad. by the time it catches anything there gang will already be on field and so will your gang. That caracal will be cruising at 2-3 times your speed. You have to rely on luck for everything you tackle.
Idame Isqua Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 10	Posted - 2015.11.12 15:18:40 - [527] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: by the time it catches anything there gang will already be on field and so will your gang. That caracal will be cruising at 2-3 times your speed. You have to rely on luck for everything you tackle. I prefer my pilots to have skill.
DeadDuck The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 183	Posted - 2015.11.12 17:26:28 - [528] - Quote When we will be seeing these new changes in Singularity ?
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 98	Posted - 2015.11.12 18:07:41 - [529] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: by the time it catches anything there gang will already be on field and so will your gang. That caracal will be cruising at 2-3 times your speed. You have to rely on luck for everything you tackle. Getting a slow ship consistently in range of a faster ship to apply tackle is part of the gameplay, whether it happens through manual piloting on the grid, bouncing between celestials to get a superior warp in, or getting the target to come to you. It all simply depends on what part of your job you want to be easier. With the punisher, getting the tackle of an evasive opponent is harder, but holding the target for a consistent period of time once successful is what it can do better than anything else its price. If you are on the offensive then there is no real luck. Ya make it work or try something else. Nor is it "bad luck" whenever you get beat, you get beat fair and square as well.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 242	Posted - 2015.11.12 18:35:37 - [530] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Lady Rift wrote: by the time it catches anything there gang will already be on field and so will your gang. That caracal will be cruising at 2-3 times your speed. You have to rely on luck for everything you tackle. Getting a slow ship consistently in range of a faster ship to apply tackle is part of the gameplay, whether it happens through manual piloting on the grid, bouncing between celestials to get a superior warp in, or getting the target to come to you. It all simply depends on what part of your job you want to be easier. With the punisher, getting the tackle of an evasive opponent is harder, but holding the target for a consistent period of time once successful is what it can do better than anything else its price. If you are on the offensive then there is no real luck. Ya make it work or try something else. Nor is it "bad luck" whenever you get beat, you get beat fair and square as well. its bad luck like its bad luck when you get caught in a sub 2s align ship. or good luck when you catch a sub 2s ship. And it does require luck to get that warp in and luck that all the tom follery doesn't have the faster ship and his small gang just pass you by.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 242	Posted - 2015.11.12 18:39:33 - [531] - Quote Idame Isqua wrote: Lady Rift wrote: by the time it catches anything there gang will already be on field and so will your gang. That caracal will be cruising at 2-3 times your speed. You have to rely on luck for everything you tackle. I prefer my pilots to have skill. give your tackler 15 extra mil and have him fit a caracal. more dps, tank and you can even match the speed of that punisher with an afterburner and a single overdrive.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 242	Posted - 2015.11.12 20:05:55 - [532] - Quote punisher looks good to me: oversize ab and scram with blasters or autocannons for brawling. mwd+disruptor with double nano in lows for kiting. laser tracking is a problem though and with no web i think it really needs a tracking bonus to make people choose lasers. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Colt Blackhawk bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions 321	Posted - 2015.11.12 20:26:11 - [533] - Quote Okay I tested the Hook and RFF again. Hook really really does not need that buff. Firetail deserves it. Nerf the comet damn hell^^ [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f**** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
BABARR PARABELUM-Project Vendetta Mercenary Group 23	Posted - 2015.11.13 00:12:42 - [534] - Quote Orthus nerf, yes, cause it was "a bit" OP. The question is : is it the right way to nerf it? maybe -1 low or less speed better, and ppl have to sacrifice speed for more damage. Whith your nerf the orthus is still a wtf epic machine fast as hell and able to tackle, and provide just less dps. Bhargest up, yes, cause it was a piece of **. But don't think it's going to change anything, it's still a piece of **, beacause battleship warp slower than a industrial ship and got less scan res than a badger. Why call that a BATTLE-ship when you have a fuckign epic mass for nothing? It's warp slow, it's hard to apply dps, ect...
zahg PARABELUM-Project Vendetta Mercenary Group 62	Posted - 2015.11.13 09:13:15 - [535] - Quote Thank you ccp for those good propositions. Indeed, i'am very please with those changes on paper. *AMARR FRIGATES* While some are not happy about the punisher, those changes are perfect for it to get its own r+¦le for fleet or gang tank/dps platform. The tormentor does the brawling r+¦le well enough for the amarr frigs. In fact, concerning that last ship, it does it welle nough for it not needing a buff. HOOKBILL Some changes will give that ship a breath, so props for bringing them in. Don't forget the real problem of that ship is the fitting room beeing awefull as some peoples said earlier on that forum. *GILA/ ORTHRUS/WORM* Very constructive changes here but for the orthrus. When you will nerf it again, and you will, i'am 100% sure you'll come back on that nerf you plan today. Then, it will be a waste of energy and intentions that could have been avoided. For the orthrus, a speed nerf or maybe the removal of a mid slot would appear more constructive. We need those ships allowing solo pvp, but they need to have downsides making the piloting harder, not just the dps so low that they become useless. What make the orthrus so performant as well is the fact they are from those ships most flown by experienced players. BARGHEST/ BATTLESHIPS IN GENERAL Here is my issue with that game. The reason that made me quit it so often with anger. While your Barghest proposal is good for now, the battleships are in fact near to useless, PVP wise, for a long time now. I see those changes about frigs and overpowered pirate cruisers, that can all solo kill any passive or active battleship (with enough time/ammo). The battleships are not only underperforming on all regards, they are just so frustrating to fly. I have more fun flying an industrial ship seriosuly...at least it warps at a decent speed...Cutting down BS's and BC's (at some extends) like you did, removed a huge part of the pvp gameplay out of eve. A part that is one of the reason us veterans are leaving it little by little. I sometime have the feeling I paid an abonment from 2008 to this day in the sole hope of flying perfectly a tormentor at the end, which is efficient already from day 1 in eve witht he current newbie skills. Those OP frigates I have to turn to while letting my Battleships in station, had cost me 3000$ of abonment, between this char and alts, for very little gain pvp experience wise. I wan't to have fun. Frigates are fun. But they are not ALL of the fun.
Rahknai Improvised Tactics 1	Posted - 2015.11.13 12:28:50 - [536] - Quote All looks good and especially nice to see the Punisher finally receiving a significant buff!
Mysa Alekhine's Gun Decayed Orbit 44	Posted - 2015.11.14 08:09:28 - [537] - Quote twit brent wrote: So disheartened by sacrilege. I thought it was going to finally get its slot layout fixed :( Troll SoloFoLife! -KEKE the Merlin wonder
Lara Sunji State War Academy Caldari State 14	Posted - 2015.11.14 09:54:10 - [538] - Quote lol no svipul nerf .. The most used ship in the entire friggin game.
DeadDuck The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 183	Posted - 2015.11.14 12:56:49 - [539] - Quote Lara Sunji wrote: lol no svipul nerf .. The most used ship in the entire friggin game. What do you think the Focus Group Tactical Destroyers exists for? You think the Svipul and the Confessor gonna stay as they are ?
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 528	Posted - 2015.11.14 20:13:25 - [540] - Quote zahg wrote: Thank you ccp for those good propositions. Indeed, i'am very please with those changes on paper. *AMARR FRIGATES* While some are not happy about the punisher, those changes are perfect for it to get its own r+¦le for fleet or gang tank/dps platform. The tormentor does the brawling r+¦le well enough for the amarr frigs. In fact, concerning that last ship, it does it welle nough for it not needing a buff. you mean the punisher becoming rollLESS. with the loss of its utility high it will only be brawling. it wont have any roll except the roll the tormentor already does. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 337	Posted - 2015.11.14 21:00:19 - [541] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: 2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler. Then what is it supposed to be? It can't kite for **. No application bonus. Losing utility high. Can't active tank. Can't shield tank. No ewar. Even with capacitor bonus, it still uses nearly twice as much cap per gun as a blaster (and another gun to feed) so it has a major weakness to neuts. It's a Jack of No Trades, Master of None. The other tanky frigates, breacher/incursus/merlin are far more flexible because of their extra mids. The incursus can do godly frigate active tank with an injector. The breacher can do capacitor independant tanking and is no slouch dps wise. The merlin is average as ** but still way ahead of the punisher.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 103	Posted - 2015.11.15 00:42:18 - [542] - Quote Punisher has it's niche, might be a small niche, but it is the master of it. That niche is simply its incredible buffer durability. Throw all the buffer in the world on a Merlin, to the point that its nothing but tank, ab and scram, and your looking at like 11000, with a signature the size of a destroyer. The incursus fairs better, that can get up to around 12000, with a sig of 42 and a web. Punisher can do 19000, plus 290 per cycle coming from a rep in the new 5th lowslot, with a sig of 37, and still enough fitting left for a reasonable 120 close orbit dps to assist the small gang its tackling for, bring the target down a few seconds earlier. If you need a 5mil frig to just hold a mother****er down while being pounded on by 200-300-400-500 dps, and live a consistent period of time every time, with a buffer immune to neuts, pilot error, or being alpha'd, you can't get anything else to do it as well. The game has countless dozen solo frigs that are fast, can kite, can project good damage at good distance, etc etc etc. It doesn't need yet another identical one with a different skin. These changes will see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it that aren't just the boring addition of a web everyone had in mind before.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 528	Posted - 2015.11.15 03:58:28 - [543] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Punisher has it's niche, might be a small niche, but it is the master of it. That niche is simply its incredible buffer durability. Throw all the buffer in the world on a Merlin, to the point that its nothing but tank, ab and scram, and your looking at like 11000, with a signature the size of a destroyer. The incursus fairs better, that can get up to around 12000, with a sig of 42 and a web. Punisher can do 19000, plus 290 per cycle coming from a rep in the new 5th lowslot, with a sig of 37, and still enough fitting left for a reasonable 120 close orbit dps to assist the small gang its tackling for, bring the target down a few seconds earlier. If you need a 5mil frig to just hold a mother****er down while being pounded on by 200-300-400-500 dps, and live a consistent period of time every time, with a buffer immune to neuts, pilot error, or being alpha'd, you can't get anything else to do it as well. The game has countless dozen solo frigs that are fast, can kite, can project good damage at good distance, etc etc etc. It doesn't need yet another identical one with a different skin. These changes will see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it that aren't just the boring addition of a web everyone had in mind before. what part of loosing a utility high opens up alot of intresting fits to you? Tanking is not a role. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 104	Posted - 2015.11.15 04:49:05 - [544] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: what part of loosing a utility high opens up alot of intresting fits to you? Tanking is not a role. Tanking is the defining attribute of a heavy tackle role. What does losing the utility high do, if its being used in a role to heavy tackle cruisers and up. Its capacitor is strong enough to resist a small neut, and a small nos does not prevent a medium neut from capping you out just the same. Whether the scram goes off still comes down to a dice roll on how closely the medium neuts cycle hits you in comparison to the start of the next scram cycle. As its capacitor regeneration is very good by itself, it can keep the scram up quite tenaciously in the face of a medium neut. The addition of a nos doesn't really increase that chance in practice. A small neut is also obviously pointless in that role. The fit we currently roll for it has no use for the utility high, so the 4th gun being added is purely a bonus. I imagine you are still requiring it to be a solo frigate, and wont imagine what use it's buffs could be to any role outside of that. Does the concept of a T1 frigate meant for small gangs really seem that abhorrent that it would just be better removed entirely if it's not going to be made into another cookie cutter clone solo frig, which the tormentor already fills just fine for T1 amarr.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 528	Posted - 2015.11.15 05:00:39 - [545] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Flyinghotpocket wrote: what part of loosing a utility high opens up alot of intresting fits to you? Tanking is not a role. Tanking is the defining attribute of a heavy tackle role. What does losing the utility high do, if its being used in a role to heavy tackle cruisers and up. Its capacitor is strong enough to resist a small neut, and a small nos does not prevent a medium neut from capping you out just the same. Whether the scram goes off still comes down to a dice roll on how closely the medium neuts cycle hits you in comparison to the start of the next scram cycle. As its capacitor regeneration is very good by itself, it can keep the scram up quite tenaciously in the face of a medium neut. The addition of a nos doesn't really increase that chance in practice. A small neut is also obviously pointless in that role. The fit we currently roll for it has no use for the utility high, so the 4th gun being added is purely a bonus. I imagine you are still requiring it to be a solo frigate, and wont imagine what use it's buffs could be to any role outside of that. Does the concept of a T1 frigate meant for small gangs really seem that abhorrent that it would just be better removed entirely if it's not going to be made into another cookie cutter clone solo frig, which the tormentor already fills just fine for T1 amarr. actually i only use the punisher in fleets. and only use it when my fleet mates cant fly a tristan. because of the utility neut. without its utility neut it has NO fleet role anymore. everyone will just fit a tormentor, or use a race of ships that dont suck at t1 frigating. or use a punisher with 3 neuts because it will be useless. infact, if this change goes through on the punisher, literally everybody will be saying just ignore all t1 amarr frigates. they are trash in fleet settings. except the inquisitor. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 104	Posted - 2015.11.15 05:17:58 - [546] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: actually i only use the punisher in fleets. and only use it when my fleet mates cant fly a tristan. because of the utility neut. without its utility neut it has NO fleet role anymore. everyone will just fit a tormentor, or use a race of ships that dont suck at t1 frigating. or use a punisher with 3 neuts because it will be useless. infact, if this change goes through on the punisher, literally everybody will be saying just ignore all t1 amarr frigates. they are trash in fleet settings. except the inquisitor. Well, as far as our use is concerned, a Tristan nor a Tormentor provide what we need, and a small neut is of no benefit to neutralizing the incoming damage of a cruiser, the slot currently goes empty, and even with the new fitting space enabling a neut in addition to the tank we fit it with now, we will be using the new fitting space for other things. There will be many other interesting fits popping up that its new slots and fitting space enable, besides the one we use. What interesting fits would it get if it was made to be like everything else? Nothing that hasn't been standard for years, and if its not made to be better than others in that standard role, then it still won't be used. At least it is the best at something, rather than just mediocre at everything. The punisher change doesn't make or break the ship for us, we've happily used it for a quite a while and would continue to do so buff or not. But for what we use it for the buffs are very beneficial. Our heavy tackler is quite pleased. So I don't think everybody will be ignoring it.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4745	Posted - 2015.11.15 06:31:59 - [547] - Quote So are the Worm and Gila losing their drone HP bonuses in the balance pass? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 242	Posted - 2015.11.15 07:54:11 - [548] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: So are the Worm and Gila losing their drone HP bonuses in the balance pass? I really think you're going to far on these when all that is really needed is to tame the drone bonus down a tad, ie: Worm -+-+ current 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints 3 low slots Worm -+-+ proposed 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage 2 low slots, -20 CPU Worm -+-+ compromise 250% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints 3 low slots, -20 CPU ... Gila -+-+ current 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints 4 low slots Gila -+-+ proposed 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage 3 low slots, -20 CPU Gila -+-+ compromise 400% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints 4 low slots, -20 CPU read the op this change is just -20 cpu and a low slot. nothing about the drones yet.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 338	Posted - 2015.11.15 08:09:50 - [549] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Punisher has it's niche, might be a small niche, but it is the master of it. That niche is simply its incredible buffer durability. Throw all the buffer in the world on a Merlin, to the point that its nothing but tank, ab and scram, and your looking at like 11000, with a signature the size of a destroyer. The incursus fairs better, that can get up to around 12000, with a sig of 42 and a web. Punisher can do 19000, plus 290 per cycle coming from a rep in the new 5th lowslot, with a sig of 37, and still enough fitting left for a reasonable 120 close orbit dps to assist the small gang its tackling for, bring the target down a few seconds earlier. If you need a 5mil frig to just hold a mother**er down while being pounded on by 200-300-400-500 dps, and live a consistent period of time every time, with a buffer immune to neuts, pilot error, or being alpha'd, you can't get anything else to do it as well. The game has countless dozen solo frigs that are fast, can kite, can project good damage at good distance, etc etc etc. It doesn't need yet another identical one with a different skin. These changes will see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it that aren't just the boring addition of a web everyone had in mind before. The sig on the merlin doesn't matter because it has a WEB which does more for it avoiding damage from bigger targets than having a bit more buffer. Bait without a web is pretty fail. And even if you have no clue how that works, remove the web from the merlin and add another extender or asb. You can fit a lot of ships to tank a shocking amount of damage and not be as obvious as a punisher that can ALSO** do other fits.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 338	Posted - 2015.11.15 08:21:37 - [550] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Well, as far as our use is concerned, a Tristan nor a Tormentor provide what we need, and a small neut is of no benefit to neutralizing the incoming damage of a cruiser, the slot currently goes empty, and even with the new fitting space enabling a neut in addition to the tank we fit it with now, we will be using the new fitting space for other things. There will be many other interesting fits popping up that its new slots and fitting space enable, besides the one we use. What interesting fits would it get if it was made to be like everything else? Nothing that hasn't been standard for years, and if its not made to be better than others in that standard role, then it still won't be used. At least it is the best at something, rather than just mediocre at everything. The punisher change doesn't make or break the ship for us, we've happily used it for a quite a while and would continue to do so buff or not. But for what we use it for the buffs are very beneficial. Our heavy tackler is quite pleased. So I don't think everybody will be ignoring it. The small neut isn't for a futile attempt at disrupting a cruiser, it's specifically for anti logi frigate duty. One could argue that a 'heavy tackle frigate' should fit a nos in order to keep it's scram online against incoming neuts and for keeping the guns running. Though, flyhing a 'heavy tackle frigate' that is only 200m/s faster than a thorax is pretty laughable in a lot of situations. With the punisher losing it's utility high the only other amarr combat frigate with a utility high will be the executioner. While being inferior to the tristan for novice plexes, it had a use. One punisher to each logi frigate and you'd heavily disrupt them. The tristan does the job better because it can fit two neuts and put it's drones on the primary target while doing it's neuting, while other frigates are usually stuck with having to shoot the logi frigate they are neuting. After this change we'll be forced to use armor slicers if we want to have a neut and more than the paper tank of an executioner. It's better at that job than the punisher now anyway, but it's a more expensive option.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 338	Posted - 2015.11.15 09:05:29 - [551] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Tanking is the defining attribute of a heavy tackle role. What does losing the utility high do, if its being used in a role to heavy tackle cruisers and up. Its capacitor is strong enough to resist a small neut, and a small nos does not prevent a medium neut from capping you out just the same. Whether the scram goes off still comes down to a dice roll on how closely the medium neuts cycle hits you in comparison to the start of the next scram cycle. As its capacitor regeneration is very good by itself, it can keep the scram up quite tenaciously in the face of a medium neut. The addition of a nos doesn't really increase that chance in practice. A small neut is also obviously pointless in that role. The fit we currently roll for it has no use for the utility high, so the 4th gun being added is purely a bonus. I imagine you are still requiring it to be a solo frigate, and wont imagine what use it's buffs could be to any role outside of that. Does the concept of a T1 frigate meant for small gangs really seem that abhorrent that it would just be better removed entirely if it's not going to be made into another cookie cutter clone solo frig, which the tormentor already fills just fine for T1 amarr. It has more slots and fitting at its disposal now than any other T1 frigate in the game. A slicer might also have 5 lows but a slicer is basically the polar opposite kind of frigate to the punisher, which also has far more cpu and powergrid in addition to its even resists and resist bonus on top of that. It has a role, and it is capable of performing it excellently. Might not be the role which you would like to fly it in, but it's not a do-it-all frigate. Luckily I imagine there's several dozen frigates that are precisely what you are looking for. Fitted, it's slow. We're talking cruiser speed slow. A shield thorax goes faster and has more ehp. It's a frigate, you know, a ship class that depends heavily on speed/sig to mitigate damage. It has no web to slow down a cruiser, so it's useless for tackling many ships{sansha ships, oversize AB ships, ab cruiser with web), and it's easier for the cruiser to apply it's dps because of relative speeds. Other frigates can do multiple roles. All the punisher can do is armor buffer with gimped mids. It doesn't need to be a good solo ship, but it's gang potential is equally bad compared to the alternatives. Tiericide removed the utility highs on many ships. That utility high on the punisher was the one thing it had going for it compared to some of the alternatives. Tanking is not a role. Other ships can do impressive tanks, the punisher being X% better at only armor buffer = garbage. What can you use that for? Baiting. How many ships in the game can be used as bait that aren't as obvious as a punisher? It's a ship with tons of downsides, with one teeny tiny niche that can be done by other ships just fine.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 105	Posted - 2015.11.15 18:54:20 - [552] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: The sig on the merlin doesn't matter because it has a WEB which does more for it avoiding damage from bigger targets than having a bit more buffer. Bait without a web is pretty fail. The sig has an enormous impact on the incoming damage of the widest possible array of cruisers/battlecruisers. A web does not reduce the incoming damage of any tackled missile ship, and any target the punisher can already easily outpace while scrammed, which is the vast majority, it would only very briefly assist in setting up a close orbit, which it manages now very easily. If the target is some 100MN orthrus or the like, it's not being held web or no web. Every turret ship that gets scrammed, gets orbited under its tracking moments later. The signature size is the single most powerful attribute in the scenario besides the ehp itself. Every point of it counts towards the life expectancy when its being pounded on by missiles or setting up a stable hold. Granted we may simply have different small gang compositions in mind. We use a single heavy tackle. A web is not useless, far from it, would be useful offensively, but we are used to what the ship can hold, and welcome the different buffs. Quote: remove the web from the merlin and add another extender or asb. You can fit a lot of ships to tank a shocking amount of damage and not be as *obvious* as a punisher that can ALSO do other fits. See the posts above, the comparison I made was with a webless max tanked merlin. We have tried all other options many times, in the case of the merlin, its sig kills it. The second best option to the punisher is the incursus, which is better when holding faster prey that do less damage and can be killed quickly, but far inferior at holding large prey that cant escape anyway, but do a ton of damage and take time to bring down. The punisher is the endurance option by a country mile. Quote: The small neut isn't for a futile attempt at disrupting a cruiser, it's specifically for anti logi frigate duty. In half a year we've not been in a situation that requires that function. If we have our single tackle punisher attacking a frigate gang with frigate logi, we don't sent it slow boating after the logi anyway, we just latch it onto the most expensive targets in order and use the other half of our composition to destroy or drive off grid any squishy support. Basically every single target we do scram, is ether too large for a small neut to have any effect, or not dangerous enough to bother neuting before its dead. Quote: One could argue that a 'heavy tackle frigate' should fit a nos in order to keep it's scram online against incoming neuts and for keeping the guns running. Though, flyhing a 'heavy tackle frigate' that is only 200m/s faster than a thorax is pretty laughable in a lot of situations. See the posts above for when I addressed the use of a nos. Long story short it doesn't prevent cap out from a medium neut, isn't needed at all against a small neut, doesn't fit today without compromising the tank, and even when it will fit in December it's still an option we have practically tested and decided isn't worth it. The guns we have fitted on it don't need any cap. Quote: One punisher to each logi frigate and you'd heavily disrupt them. The tristan does the job better because it can fit two neuts and put it's drones on the primary target while doing it's neuting, while other frigates are usually stuck with having to shoot the logi frigate they are neuting. Sounds like your coming from the perspective of having the gang all flying the same punisher. If that is the case then yes there's numerous better options. I'm coming from the perspective of having a single punisher in the gang that performs a specific unique role. If it lands in scram range of a cruiser that it only just barely outpaces, then it's still operating just fine. A mwd cruiser escaping I can't recall has ever happened, an AB+web cruiser possibly, though that's been a problem in a very tiny fraction of cases. A web would be nice sure, but you can already do that fit with an incursus if you want, you just trade a lot of tank for it, which is a fair trade and an option already in the game and doesn't need to be duplicated. You say that the buffer is only useful as a bait, but then rebuke that point by saying it's the most likely T1 frig to be a bait. I don't disagree with that, it is the most obvious bait, but it works anyway. If that tank is useful to a bait, then it is useful to a heavy tackle for the same reasons, the endurance of being able to hold the target. That remains the same once on grid whether it warped to the tackle or the tackle warped to it. Vast majority of the time it's the latter, but the tank serves the same benefit. We simply have vastly different fleet comps in mind, so I'm sure the incursus or tristan are indeed far better for you.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 339	Posted - 2015.11.15 21:34:12 - [553] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: stuff. I just checked the punisher fit you're talking about. You're baiting and ganking. Dragoon can get a buffer like that and a vengeance can put it to shame, while having a web. And most of the individuals you're ganking would bite on a vengeance just as they would a punisher. While the vengeance may not fit in a novice, all the ganks I'm seeing have T3Ds on them so that's not an issue. The punisher would be a terrible ship for baiting in a novice because anything with a web is going to GTFO when you spike local. The vengeance may cost more but you'd lose fewer of them....especially if you used the utility highs on your confessors for RR. The vengeance also has/had a reputation for being a solo ship, where a punisher is only good for bait and everyone with two brain cells knows that's all it can do. The fights we get over here aren't ganks. They're fights against superior numbers, and logi is almost always involved. We favor neut comets above all, cruors and tristans......and then punishers. Those ships are specifically picked because they have at least one utility high and bring some dps. Of those ships the punisher is by far the worst, and mostly only used for RP reasons. Because the fights over here aren't pure gankfests we need our ships to actually contribute to a fight. This upcoming change takes away it's utility high, making it worthless in the fleet fights....and since it's a terrible solo ship......might as well reprocess them and get tristans.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 106	Posted - 2015.11.15 23:09:05 - [554] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: I just checked the punisher fit you're talking about. You're baiting and ganking. Dragoon can get a buffer like that and a vengeance can put it to shame, while having a web. And most of the individuals you're ganking would bite on a vengeance just as they would a punisher. Put the fit a few pages back, didn't need to check. We've run vengeances and retributions, neither comes close to the cost effectiveness now, let alone in December. Both also quite a bit slower, to the point where it starts to become an issue holding larger things. The price of them also means they have to be used a lot more reservedly, and we can't be as daring with it. Currently if we want to go for a large target that may have backup, and we have just two guys, then we lose a 5m punisher, or more than often it escapes. For example we had a 230m oracle a week ago that had a tengu friend, we were able to snipe it with one fessor while the punisher sat there eating the tengus attempts to shake it off. After the oracle went down we had a good shot on the tengu and fought that for a minute or so before more reinforcements came, but in the end we lost a throwaway 5m tackle for the 230m oracle, with just one sniper in the gang. We did the same on a Hyperion, that the punisher held long enough to be killed, followed by a 1b CNR that warped in to save it, which then got scrammed by the punisher right after and went down next, same with a Tempest a little earlier. It holds big targets excellently for a long duration, but can also stand up to attack from many small targets for a long duration also. Nothing else can perform the task as well in as many varied scenarios, we tested them practically in each instance to determine which was right for the strategy.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 106	Posted - 2015.11.15 23:18:04 - [555] - Quote Quote: While the vengeance may not fit in a novice, all the ganks I'm seeing have T3Ds on them so that's not an issue. The punisher would be a terrible ship for baiting in a novice because anything with a web is going to GTFO when you spike local. It goes after targets in all cases these days, unless a target has already demonstrated it's willingness to come to us, which usually involves the use of the buffer doing dances to draw that interest in the first place. As it does just fine holding T3D's, cruisers, battlecruisers, even battleships on occasion, that every time we have tried more expensive options, its just not seemed at all worth it. Certainly not when, as mentioned above, we then feel the need to be less daring with it, as opposed to the substantial ability it provides now for a cost so small that t1 loot alone pays many times what the supply of punishers costs. Quote: The vengeance may cost more but you'd lose fewer of them....especially if you used the utility highs on your confessors for RR. The vengeance also has/had a reputation for being a solo ship, where a punisher is only good for bait and everyone with two brain cells knows that's all it can do. When substantial backup arrives that simply is far too large to deal with, a vengeance would die in basically every scenario the punisher does. The buffer it can mount, especially after December, is hardly an improvement at all, and we can roll out 6-7 of the punishers for the same price as one vengeance. While the doctrine is based around taking control of a fight, it also currently has the advantage that when control is lost, 99% of the time it's only a 5m punisher that's biting the dust, the next one being about 30 seconds away. We found the retribution better of the two back when we were trying all the possible options, but the punisher still took the lead by a mile in effectiveness to efficiency. Taking multiple cruisers, or a battlecruiser or larger, with just one punisher successfully tackling and holding something for a long time to be chewed on, isn't a gank. One punisher and one sniper wins those fights with a combination of the punishers tank and the snipers range and defensive ewar. Nor really is having a punisher and a couple of snipers against much larger groups of frigates and dessies. Ganks happen sure, who is going to let a juicy faction frigate go just because its too easy to kill. But its strength is being able to go for big things, hold them for sometimes an extreme duration, so they can be brought down by a comp that uses versatile small sized weapons to both track and defeat frigates and pour enough dps into a cruiser or larger. Operating at 70km sort of excludes the possibility of using small remote reps on the snipers, however the tracking disruptor, and soon missile disruptor, also coming in December, are both super useful and are made to function at that range. When the space is full of frigate and dessy gangs of 10-20 strong, the doctrine has given us the flexibility to be cost effective no matter the number of guests. It works with one punisher and one sniper, and many big things have gone down to just a pair. However more can be added, to bring bigger things down quicker. But most engagements make real use of the punishers buffer, meaning they take some time to bring down, a sniper and the punisher is a combined dps of a typical cruiser, but it can go from engagement to engagement and when the blob comes it can disengage efficiently, wear as two cruisers, or a vengeance/retribution, would get caught and killed every time. As I suspected your tactics are just different, you might want everyone getting stuck in at dogfighting ranges, but not everyone wants to do that. There's other ways to fight, ways that rely more on the piloting of one frigate and the complimentary performance of a strong partner sniper. I like a strong fit that can judge a great deal of the time whether a fight is won or lost before it begins, but also has the cheap cost in the main at risk vessel that it can be thrown away often in the attempt to take on things bigger than us that we aren't sure we can handle. A permanent change to a retribution or a vengeance, for the sake of a fraction of extra power per tackle compared to a 6-7x increase in cost per loss, would change the disposable nature of the bait entirely.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 340	Posted - 2015.11.16 14:33:49 - [556] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Quote: While the vengeance may not fit in a novice, all the ganks I'm seeing have T3Ds on them so that's not an issue. The punisher would be a terrible ship for baiting in a novice because anything with a web is going to GTFO when you spike local. It goes after targets in all cases these days, unless a target has already demonstrated it's willingness to come to us, which usually involves the use of the buffer doing dances to draw that interest in the first place. As it does just fine holding T3D's, cruisers, battlecruisers, even battleships on occasion, that every time we have tried more expensive options, its just not seemed at all worth it. Certainly not when, as mentioned above, we then feel the need to be less daring with it, as opposed to the substantial ability it provides now for a cost so small that t1 loot alone pays many times what the supply of punishers costs. As we don't go inside novice's it's not what the ship is on dscan that matters to us, it's how good it is for its price. Quote: The vengeance may cost more but you'd lose fewer of them....especially if you used the utility highs on your confessors for RR. The vengeance also has/had a reputation for being a solo ship, where a punisher is only good for bait and everyone with two brain cells knows that's all it can do. When substantial backup arrives that simply is far too large to deal with, a vengeance would die in basically every scenario the punisher does. The buffer it can mount, especially after December, is hardly an improvement at all, and we can roll out 6-7 of the punishers for the same price as one vengeance. While the doctrine is based around taking control of a fight, it also currently has the advantage that when control is lost, 99% of the time it's only a 5m punisher that's biting the dust, the next one being about 30 seconds away. We found the retribution better then the vengeance back when we were trying all the possible options, but the punisher still took the lead by a mile in effectiveness to efficiency. Taking multiple cruisers, or a battlecruiser or larger, with just one punisher successfully tackling and holding something for a long time to be chewed on, isn't a gank. Such a buffer wouldn't be needed if every target died in gank-like speed. One punisher and one sniper wins those fights with a combination of the punishers tank and the snipers range and defensive ewar. Nor really is having a punisher and a couple of snipers against much larger groups of frigates and dessies. Ganks happen sure, who is going to let a juicy faction frigate go just because its too easy to kill. But its strength is being able to go for big things, hold them for sometimes an extreme duration, so they can be brought down by a comp that uses versatile small sized weapons to both track and defeat frigates and pour enough dps into a cruiser or larger. Operating at 70km sort of excludes the possibility of using small remote reps on the snipers, however the tracking disruptor, and soon missile disruptor, also coming in December, are both super useful and are made to function at that range. When the space is full of frigate and dessy gangs of 10-20 strong, the doctrine has given us the flexibility to be cost effective no matter the number of guests. It works with one punisher and one sniper, and many big things have gone down to just a pair. However more can be added, to bring bigger things down quicker, or to sit the punisher in the midst of larger enemy gangs and maintain control of the situation. Most engagements make real use of the punishers buffer, meaning they take some time to bring down, a sniper and the punisher is a combined dps of a typical cruiser, but it can go from engagement to engagement and when the blob comes it can disengage efficiently, wear as two cruisers, or a vengeance/retribution, would get caught and killed every time. A permanent change to a retribution or a vengeance, for the sake of a fraction of extra buffer per tackle compared to a 6-7x increase in cost per loss, would change the disposable nature of the bait entirely. We don't claim exceptional piloting, but the first time we did punisher+cormorants, it worked far better than anything else at the time, and its simple for guest snipers to join in. So, in that, very small niche, the punisher is indeed the best option. We see it more as ammunition than as an individual ship we don't want to lose. However come December I think that quite a few other fleet uses will start to pop up for it. You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets. The idea I put forward earlier, it looks like......... 2-3 highs 2-3 mids 4 lows 2 launcher/2 turret Resist bonus/drone hp/tracking 20 bandwidth/40 or 60 dronebay. Now it's a smaller dragoon/prophecy/armageddon, filling the role that's absent from the frigate line. It has less bandwidth than the tristan so it doesn't step on it's toes as much, while still being a useful ship that could fulfill multiple roles. It's lower dps makes up for it's better buffer. They kept adjusting the punisher's fitting because it's a bad ship, instead of just making it do something else and giving it a real role. Hell, I wouldn't mind the maller getting the same treatment. If they did that the entire line would make sense, except the abaddon would look kind of odd. I always thought it would make more sense for the abaddon to have been the drone ship and the armageddon to have stayed a gun boat.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 106	Posted - 2015.11.17 00:45:34 - [557] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets. Yes. But also simply to prove it has it's role, and can be better at something than any other frigate. Which I find more interesting than trying to make them all alike. When we want less tank but a third mid-slot, we already have that frigate, the incursus.
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 620	Posted - 2015.11.17 01:17:26 - [558] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Templar Dane wrote: You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets. Yes. But also simply to prove it has it's role, and can be better at something than any other frigate. Which I find more interesting than trying to make them all alike. When we want less tank but a third mid-slot, we already have that frigate, the incursus. I have to say that i agree with you on multiple counts. While the web would certainly be nice, the tank and gank role they have proposed here is ideal; that much shouldn't be in dispute, especially considering the abuse a 3rd mid would lend towards a cap booster in active tanking (we don't need a 2nd incursus anyway; would be boring). However, i would prefer that they avoid the idea of making the punisher a special snowflake that gets an extra slot, buff the capacitor as they are proposing, and move that utility high down to a low slot. The third mid is a non-issue that comes from having the convenience of a web, which isn't necessary for the heavy tackle ab/scram fits that the punisher excels at. TBH I'd actually prefer they do the 4 gun idea on the Executioner. Removing the damage bonus in favor of tracking speed would be perfect since it would give it better viability with beams, and nobody uses the damn utility slot on it anyway.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 341	Posted - 2015.11.17 04:55:29 - [559] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Shalashaska Adam wrote: Templar Dane wrote: You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets. Yes. But also simply to prove it has it's role, and can be better at something than any other frigate. Which I find more interesting than trying to make them all alike. When we want less tank but a third mid-slot, we already have that frigate, the incursus. I have to say that i agree with you on multiple counts. While the web would certainly be nice, the tank and gank role they have proposed here is ideal; that much shouldn't be in dispute, especially considering the abuse a 3rd mid would lend towards a cap booster in active tanking (we don't need a 2nd incursus anyway; would be boring). However, i would prefer that they avoid the idea of making the punisher a special snowflake that gets an extra slot, buff the capacitor as they are proposing, and move that utility high down to a low slot. The third mid is a non-issue that comes from having the convenience of a web, which isn't necessary for the heavy tackle ab/scram fits that the punisher excels at. TBH I'd actually prefer they do the 4 gun idea on the Executioner. Removing the damage bonus in favor of tracking speed would be perfect since it would give it better viability with beams, and nobody uses the damn utility slot on it anyway. This is the punisher fit he thinks makes the ship. [Punisher, dangobobo's Punisher] 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I He wants these changes to go through so he can upgrade the plates and add more resists. By 'tank and gank' he means, 'tank while something else ganks'.
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 620	Posted - 2015.11.17 06:19:01 - [560] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: Shalashaska Adam wrote: Templar Dane wrote: You're championing the punisher change so that you can continue to use it to use it as disposable tackle for sniping fleets. Yes. But also simply to prove it has it's role, and can be better at something than any other frigate. Which I find more interesting than trying to make them all alike. When we want less tank but a third mid-slot, we already have that frigate, the incursus. I have to say that i agree with you on multiple counts. While the web would certainly be nice, the tank and gank role they have proposed here is ideal; that much shouldn't be in dispute, especially considering the abuse a 3rd mid would lend towards a cap booster in active tanking (we don't need a 2nd incursus anyway; would be boring). However, i would prefer that they avoid the idea of making the punisher a special snowflake that gets an extra slot, buff the capacitor as they are proposing, and move that utility high down to a low slot. The third mid is a non-issue that comes from having the convenience of a web, which isn't necessary for the heavy tackle ab/scram fits that the punisher excels at. TBH I'd actually prefer they do the 4 gun idea on the Executioner. Removing the damage bonus in favor of tracking speed would be perfect since it would give it better viability with beams, and nobody uses the damn utility slot on it anyway. This is the punisher fit he thinks makes the ship. [Punisher, dangobobo's Punisher] 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I He wants these changes to go through so he can upgrade the plates and add more resists. By 'tank and gank' he means, 'tank while something else ganks'. If you think the punisher becoming a drone ship and getting another mid somehow makes it the same as the tormentor........ atron-3 mids, fast tackle, guns incursus-guns, 3 mids, active tank tristan-drones, 3 mids executioner-3 mids, fast tackle, guns tormentor-3mids, guns punisher-2 mids, guns Guns, guns, gimped midslot guns. That's such a diverse lineup. For one, split weapons are idiotic; we learned that wayyy back in the day with the split weapons merlin. I have been of the opinion that amarr drone boats should field a full rack of unbonused missile launchers, but that's just me. Secondly, what's your point? If it works for him then it works, even if it's a stupidly small niche with a very specific fit. What I was saying earlier was that for what the punisher does it doesn't need a 3rd mid slot for what you do with it. The tormentor has one and it does just fine on its own because it's faster, and has some drones to work with. What i would prefer they do, actually, is just go with 3 high slots and 5 lows and keep the damage bonus. There's literally no reason whatsoever to make the Punisher the exception out of the ENTIRE frigate lineup for slot numbers; they got rid of the utility high on the Maller for a reason when they were doing cruiser balance. As per the ships you list, they're an irrelevant comparison because they have different roles and different needs. Obviously it make sense to have 3 or more mid slots on a fast kiter; the Crusader suffers pretty badly from not having this although it's more due to its lack of fitting space and capacitor for running beams. The Incursus kind of needs 3 mids in any case because it's an active tank AND it uses blasters, so it has **** range control and a hungry capacitor to deal with. The atron and executioner are fast tacklers (see my idea about the executioner earlier for how to balance it), and the tormentor is built as a flexible solo frigate, so it has the speed and damage to be better suited to kiting to begin with. The punisher's role IS heavy tackle, and is both better at it than any other t1 frigate in the game and worse at other roles. There's nothing wrong with specialization as long as it fulfills that role adequately. The point you don't seem to be understanding here is that it's not NECESSARY to have a webifier if you're heavy tackle. It helps, certainly, but it's not essential. Other ships like the Breacher or Incursus are sensible for mwd/full tackle because they have the speed and burst tank to hold on and out long enough against higher dps, but as Shalasaska pointed out, the Punisher excels at damage mitigation; dramatically more so than any other frigate for its price. The fact that it can hold on and hump your leg like a dog without anything short of a destroyer or AF being able to put so much as a dent in it makes it invaluable in any case, and there's no reason to make it another cookie-cutter t1 frigate without any real distinguishing features to it.
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 620	Posted - 2015.11.17 06:28:40 - [561] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: Templar Dane wrote: And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field. What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower. If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well If you brought a punisher for tackle you did something wrong. The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high. I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that. If its heavy tackle why can a thorax outrun it while its tackled? Because CCP has such a hard-on for gallente that they made the Thorax to make their feelings manifest?
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 111	Posted - 2015.11.17 06:30:54 - [562] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: This is the punisher fit he thinks makes the ship. [Punisher, dangobobo's Punisher] 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II,Hail S Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I He wants these changes to go through so he can upgrade the plates and add more resists. By 'tank and gank' he means, 'tank while something else ganks'. We don't plan to change the plates or the resists. T2 400mm's are just fitting inefficient, the armour resists are already about as insane as they can go, we could add an extra 200mm plate, but we are going with a small armour repairer instead. It has the cap to run one stable, and it will generate a 200mm plate worth of armour in about 20 seconds, and to kill that buffer in less time than that requires about 950 applied dps, which would be a lost fight anyway. Usually mixing active and buffer is no good, but in this scenario the enormous buffer allows the ship to always stay alive long enough under heavy fire for the repper to be more effective at adding further buffer than any other use of the 5th low. After that were just changing the afterburner to an enduring and the 3x 125mm guns into 4x 150mm guns. The fit has put our tackler in first place with the punisher for around the last half a year. Since last month we've moved on to the top 10 of all-time with it. So I'd say regardless of whether you think it "makes the ship", it's certainly useful to us, and the best option out there. Tackling and tanking while something else snipes is indeed 100% completely exactly precisely reassuredly undoubtedly what we do with it. It's a perfectly valid fleet role, it has it's niche, it does it's job. You may want it to do something different, but I submit that there are a dozen better frigates for those uses. Even if there was not, then we simply disagree over what we each personally would like it to be, not whether or not it has any use.
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 620	Posted - 2015.11.17 06:54:21 - [563] - Quote Going to steer the convo away from the punisher here for a bit since obviously people can't agree on what it already does well. I'd like to point out the fact that the t1 frigate lineup does need quite a bit more work than you're putting into it, particularly with the fast tackle frigates. Here's a few ideas to throw out into the open for discussion -Instead of the punisher going with 4 guns and no damage bonus, why not the executioner? Going with a 4th gun, and dropping the damage bonus for tracking speed would be perfect for it as it could apply its dps with beams much more effectively -The Condor's utility high slot is next to useless as the only common fits for them use light missiles. The addition of another mid slot would be excellent in promoting its utility with electronic warfare and shield tanking, as it makes a spectacular solo or fleet tackle ship for its price in any setting. -The Rifter is a joke. Nobody gets any real usage out of the falloff bonus and the dps is pitiful enough at close ranges to make long-range kiting pointless, not to mention its horrible performance as an arty boat. Drop the range bonus for a 5% RoF bonus to bring it into the same family as the Rupture, Hurricane and Tempest. The extra dps will immediately make it much more attractive, and to top it off, you could drop the utility high slot for a mid, giving it excellent utility for armor or shield. -Give the Slasher more powergrid so it can use arty effectively. It has good potential as an alternative to the Thrasher for a small arty boat, but lacks the fitting space to realize it. -Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range. -Give the Merlin the proposed treatment of the Punisher with an extra slot and 4 guns, while swapping out the damage bonus on it for optimal range. We are currently lacking a t1 frigate with an optimal range bonus to take advantage for with rails, and the Merlin would be an excellent choice. -Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 222	Posted - 2015.11.17 08:21:15 - [564] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: -Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range. -Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay. No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one.
Mad Abbat Talon Swarm NEOS FLEET 9	Posted - 2015.11.17 09:23:18 - [565] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: -Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range. -Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay. No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one. its **** as ewar frig, and even shittier as combat one. Current iteration of CNI is just garbage.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 222	Posted - 2015.11.17 14:31:22 - [566] - Quote Mad Abbat wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: -Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range. -Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay. No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one. its **** as ewar frig, and even shittier as combat one. Current iteration of CNI is just garbage. It's an ok e-war frig and will be better after missile TDs get added and there is other thread about CNI so no point discussing it here. If you still want to make semi-combat ship out of e-war one think about what you will add to vigil, griffin and maulus.
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 621	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:20:20 - [567] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: -Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range. -Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay. No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one. -The Arbitrator and Bellicose are ewar cruisers and both are competent combat vessels in their own right, there's no good reason not to do something similar to the frigates. -The tormentor in this proposal would have its drones removed, so the dps would drop off to compensate -A crucifier with a full drone bay is just fine as it's unbonused. The vigil's TP role is fine without combat buffs because it immediately benefits the rest of the fleet's damage in any given setting, wheres TDs are more situational. That being said, moving a mid to a high slot, an extra launcher and a 5% firing rate bonus to light and rocket launchers would be fine.
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 621	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:25:21 - [568] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Mad Abbat wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: -Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range. -Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay. No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one. its **** as ewar frig, and even shittier as combat one. Current iteration of CNI is just garbage. It's an ok e-war frig and will be better after missile TDs get added and there is other thread about CNI so no point discussing it here. If you still want to make semi-combat ship out of e-war one think about what you will add to vigil, griffin and maulus. I'd be fine with the vigil getting buffed for combat, but classically the Blackbird and Celestis don't get combat bonuses (even though i think they should). Consistent progression is preferable in any case, and having the Vigil and the Crucifier be combat-capable would be ideal.
Tyranis Marcus Bloody Heathens 1455	Posted - 2015.11.18 00:49:08 - [569] - Quote Nice. Really looking forward to the drone bay increase on the Sac. How about hull rework on the Navy Osprey? The artwork, I mean. Do not run. We are your friends.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 222	Posted - 2015.11.18 09:19:45 - [570] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: -Give the tormentor a boost in capacitor regeneration and swap the cap usage bonus out for optimal range. -Give the crucifier the ability to launch a full flight of unbonused drones with a 25/50 drone bay. No, buffing things that are already strong is not the best of ideas, same with crucifier it's a e-war frig not a combat one. -The Arbitrator and Bellicose are ewar cruisers and both are competent combat vessels in their own right, there's no good reason not to do something similar to the frigates. -The tormentor in this proposal would have its drones removed, so the dps would drop off to compensate -A crucifier with a full drone bay is just fine as it's unbonused. The vigil's TP role is fine without combat buffs because it immediately benefits the rest of the fleet's damage in any given setting, wheres TDs are more situational. That being said, moving a mid to a high slot, an extra launcher and a 5% firing rate bonus to light and rocket launchers would be fine. Sorry man than we agree to disagree, just see no point shuffling stats on things which already work. Tormentor is a good ship atm and even buff proposed by fozzie in this thread wasn't really needed, cruci is ok ship too at what it does (with only one heated td it makes 70km beam fessors in to 20km one, pulse nomen get it scorch range to something close to heated web range etc.) And imo it would be better for CCP to take a second look at some already rebalanced mods/rigs like transverse bulkhead rigs, small beams etc. for polish than reinventing bicycles basically with things that we already have and tend to work fine.
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 45	Posted - 2015.11.18 10:58:34 - [571] - Quote Why not to just to leave punisher stats as is, and remove turret bonus compleatly? Add addtional 3 launcher slots, so players may do what they want with punusher. second bonus may be as CCP wants. Only add some additional CPU.
DeadDuck The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 185	Posted - 2015.11.18 11:11:57 - [572] - Quote Anyone knows when these changes are being upload in singularity ?
Matthew Dust Valklear Legionnaires 42	Posted - 2015.11.18 11:21:55 - [573] - Quote maybe give the vaga some love...munin is probably the least used hac in the game too, out performed and cost ineffective compared to nado/arty cane
Xzanos Fools Resurrection 1	Posted - 2015.11.20 00:59:37 - [574] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Breacher: The Breacher is in a pretty decent place overall, but we think it's could use a bit of help to really shine (and it is quite underused) so we're planning this slight mobility improvement. -0.08 inertia, +5 m/s Rifter and Slasher: Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs. Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG Will look at some fittings in Python to see what these changes really can do for the ships. 80 % of Minmatar ships really need some love but i think that the projectile weapon system is really the issue that needs to be reworked.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 112	Posted - 2015.11.21 02:26:04 - [575] - Quote Xzanos wrote: And to everyone who thinks that the new Punisher changes are bad.. 14k EHP on a frigate with above 60% resists across the board seem a little OP to me, add in some logi and go to town. It may still may not be the best suited for 1v1 unless kite fit but i think this is a HUGE buff to this ship. It does 17,358 EHP already, 19,038 EHP in a fleet. 5133 / 5646 armour HP, with 76 / 69 / 64 / 62 resists. Add an additional 200mm tungsten plate in December: 5633 / 6196 armour HP, with 20,773 EHP in total. Though leaving it at 19,038 EHP and using those strong resists to get a further 64 EHP per second from a small repper gives you the same EHP boost within 27 seconds. So if you can tank longer than that, which you always can unless your being hit with over 700 applied DPS, then the repper will always add more, and you can repair yourself to full between each engagement.
Xzanos Fools Resurrection 1	Posted - 2015.11.21 17:01:01 - [576] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Xzanos wrote: And to everyone who thinks that the new Punisher changes are bad.. 14k EHP on a frigate with above 60% resists across the board seem a little OP to me, add in some logi and go to town. It may still may not be the best suited for 1v1 unless kite fit but i think this is a HUGE buff to this ship. It does 17,358 EHP already, 19,038 EHP in a fleet. 5133 / 5646 armour HP, with 76 / 69 / 64 / 62 resists. Add an additional 200mm tungsten plate in December: 5633 / 6196 armour HP, 20,773 EHP in total. WOW yeah i was looking more into it after i made this post. Why is everyone so salty about the punisher? Its like the golden frig fleet, and it has little difference to an Imp Slicer now other than base stats and bonuses.
Xzanos Fools Resurrection 1	Posted - 2015.11.21 17:16:47 - [577] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: The punisher is slow as crap, unagile Its an Amarr ship is supposed to be slow and "not agile" thats why you tank better than anything by far. Fly a different race if your looking for speed and agility.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 651	Posted - 2015.11.21 18:08:39 - [578] - Quote Xzanos wrote: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: The punisher is slow as crap, unagile Its an Amarr ship is supposed to be slow and "not agile" thats why you tank better than anything by far. Fly a different race if your looking for speed and agility. Actually the punisher is quite fast. After these changes it will be faster than a tristan. People just dont realize it or have never tested it. Its also fairly agile. The thing about some amarr ships, especially the ones that usually fit plates, is they have decent base speed/agility to compensate for the plates that will be put on them. If you dont weigh them down with plates and add a nano, they can be quite fast. Even moderately agile with a 10mn AB (in the punishers case). Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 112	Posted - 2015.11.22 05:16:35 - [579] - Quote With a 10MN compact AB being so easy to fit, I can see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it. Compensating for the lack of a web with a base afterburner speed of 2124 m/s, 2326 m/s with a nano. Overheat to 3246 m/s, that would be around 1300 m/s with a scram and a web on you. So much more interesting than just another 3 midslot frigate.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 242	Posted - 2015.11.22 07:27:00 - [580] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: With a 10MN compact AB being so easy to fit, I can see a lot of interesting fittings spring up for it. Compensating for the lack of a web with a base afterburner speed of 2124 m/s, 2326 m/s with a nano. Overheat to 3246 m/s, that would be around 1300 m/s with a scram and a web on you. So much more interesting than just another 3 midslot frigate. The problem is tracking, no web, no tracking bonus and weapons that don't track well to begin with. I also wouldn't try to use a 10mn ab fit for scram kiting without a web he'll be so much more agile you haven't got a hope of keeping them on the edge of scram range even if you have better speed than him. so for me it's going to be face brawling with blasters and 10mn ab or kiting with mwd and distuptor. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 112	Posted - 2015.11.22 09:02:41 - [581] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: The problem is tracking, no web, no tracking bonus and weapons that don't track well to begin with. I also wouldn't try to use a 10mn ab fit for scram kiting without a web he'll be so much more agile you haven't got a hope of keeping them on the edge of scram range even if you have better speed than him. so for me it's going to be face brawling with blasters and 10mn ab or kiting with mwd and distuptor. That was my thought, ether blasters or autos or pulse, depending on how much fitting you want left over for the rest. It wont be agile enough for scram kiting no, but it will be able to hug an AB/web frig, or escape from it. You basically have the range control capability of a web but with a lot less agility, but with the speed of a mwd. I'm sure a small gang fit with oversize AB in combination with its tiny sig might make for something quite effective also.
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 625	Posted - 2015.11.22 09:48:07 - [582] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: The problem is tracking, no web, no tracking bonus and weapons that don't track well to begin with. I also wouldn't try to use a 10mn ab fit for scram kiting without a web he'll be so much more agile you haven't got a hope of keeping them on the edge of scram range even if you have better speed than him. so for me it's going to be face brawling with blasters and 10mn ab or kiting with mwd and distuptor. That was my thought, ether blasters or autos or pulse, depending on how much fitting you want left over for the rest. It wont be agile enough for scram kiting no, but it will be able to hug an AB/web frig, or escape from it. You basically have the range control capability of a web but with a lot less agility, but with the speed of a mwd. I'm sure a small gang fit with oversize AB in combination with its tiny sig might make for something quite effective also. TBH i think the 10mn ab punisher will do quite well with beams; it's got the powergrid and capacitor for it, and as it was stated earlier the punisher is actually quite fast when fit correctly. Punk an ASB on there after fitting speed/dps and you're (quite literally) golden.
Feodor Romanov Blitzkrieg Federation NEOS FLEET 30	Posted - 2015.11.22 14:14:35 - [583] - Quote For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. But will become very interesting after this changes. Buff to all 3 matar frigates is good too. Well, all of changes in this topic are good. Good job CCP.
Lady Inferus Grey Operations Wander Lust 1	Posted - 2015.11.22 17:46:46 - [584] - Quote I love all the additions for combative ships but what about some new stuff for Industrial and Mining ships. for example with the orca yes its an industrial command ship but it seriously does not make sense that with the three high power slots that either a Rig to allow a turret mounting or just to allow a single strip miner can not be allowable. just my 2 cents worth though. I can definately understand trying to keep the afk mining to a minimum but if you have a single strip miner on an orca and you are mining you will have to be more active as it will burn through asteroids much faster then with five tech 2 mining drones.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2015.11.22 18:11:41 - [585] - Quote Feodor Romanov wrote: For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes. How so?
Feodor Romanov Blitzkrieg Federation NEOS FLEET 30	Posted - 2015.11.22 22:06:45 - [586] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Feodor Romanov wrote: For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes. How so? If I understand you right, you pointed this: "But will become very interesting after this changes.". I tried to EFT some fits keeping new changes in mind. Here what I got. Gang support: 1 Vampire; MWD+scrm(or web); 2 x 400mm plates, DC, Energ. and nano membranes = 20k+ EHP, 70% worst resist, 2471 m/s unheat with links, 26 sig, 5kk price. This thing can tank better then many cruisers. You can use 3-4 "punished" newbees to replace even Huginn+Lach when price matters. Frigate fleet main DPS: duals or focused, AB or MWD, 400mm plate and minimum 2 armor pumps. After the changes punisher will have mederate DPS for t1 frigates (160-180 unheated conflags), but best tank. When used with logis I think this thing will shine. Solo is still not so good, but more interesting then before: New AB+scrm Pun can be easy fitted 400mm plate + AR with speed 1000+ m/s, 160-180 DPS and stay cap stable.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1666	Posted - 2015.11.23 06:15:29 - [587] - Quote The problem is that the Punisher is good in many ways BECAUSE it only has 2 midslots, would it be given a third and left unchanged it'd be hilariously overpowered. So while I'd like it to get a third I realise that this would then mean nerfing the ship as such and whichever they'd do people would be whining about it. Having said that I'm not a fan of a 2 midslot frigate that's heavily based on cap that can't use a nos.
Moose doing Moosethings Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids 8	Posted - 2015.11.23 09:46:50 - [588] - Quote CCP Fozzie, Please give the rifter a 3-4-3 slot layout. I would be oh so happy! 250 artilleries with range bonus. Prop mod, two webifiers, and a point in the mids for best-in-class range control. 3 slots in the lows to put a tank, more speed, or more damage. Throw an aux in one of them to load 280's in the highs. You know you want to! Give in to the temptation!
Vibiana Frontier Trading Company 31	Posted - 2015.11.23 10:53:00 - [589] - Quote As combat refitting is being removed, shall we see yet another role for our beloved Nestor?
Feodor Romanov Blitzkrieg Federation NEOS FLEET 30	Posted - 2015.11.23 11:32:16 - [590] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: The problem is that the Punisher is good in many ways BECAUSE it only has 2 midslots, would it be given a third and left unchanged it'd be hilariously overpowered. So while I'd like it to get a third I realise that this would then mean nerfing the ship as such and whichever they'd do people would be whining about it. Having said that I'm not a fan of a 2 midslot frigate that's heavily based on cap that can't use a nos. I think Tristan will remain on the top of most frigate t1 roles. Punisher will be the second. The new Pun will be best only in larger ships gang support role and only till those pilots learn skills to fly Malediction. So not many things will change after rebalance to call new Pun hilariously OP. We already have Pun with 3 mid slots and moderate stats, as you suggest. This is Tormentor. If Pun will have 3 mid slots, it must be missile or drone boat then to be different.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2015.11.24 03:09:25 - [591] - Quote Feodor Romanov wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Feodor Romanov wrote: For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes. How so? If I understand you right, you pointed this: "But will become very interesting after this changes.". I tried to EFT some fits keeping new changes in mind. Here what I got. Gang support: 1 Vampire; MWD+scrm(or web); 2 x 400mm plates, DC, Energ. and nano membranes = 20k+ EHP, 70% worst resist, 2471 m/s unheat with links, 26 sig, 5kk price. This thing can tank better then many cruisers. You can use 3-4 "punished" newbees to replace even Huginn+Lach when price matters. Frigate fleet main DPS: duals or focused, AB or MWD, 400mm plate and minimum 2 armor pumps. After the changes punisher will have mederate DPS for t1 frigates (160-180 unheated conflags), but best tank. When used with logis I think this thing will shine. Solo is still not so good, but more interesting then before: New AB+scrm Pun can be easy fitted 400mm plate + AR with speed 1000+ m/s, 160-180 DPS and stay cap stable. So you plan to use lasers instead of hybrids or projectiles? And be cap stable? Interesting. I feel like these changes will kill it as a PvE vessel. I wonder if they will change the military career mission giveaway ship to a Tormentor.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2580	Posted - 2015.11.24 09:46:06 - [592] - Quote Cap stability is overrated. For whosoever shall lay his life down for his Lord He shall be taken into the arms of God And forever consecrated will he be. -Amarr-Askura 2:3
Feodor Romanov Blitzkrieg Federation NEOS FLEET 30	Posted - 2015.11.24 10:47:49 - [593] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Feodor Romanov wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Feodor Romanov wrote: For now Punisher is bad even for a fleet tackler. The worst solo PVP t1 frigate, and have too low DPS for main DPS ship in FW frigate fleets. But will become very interesting after this changes. How so? If I understand you right, you pointed this: "But will become very interesting after this changes.". I tried to EFT some fits keeping new changes in mind. Here what I got. Gang support: 1 Vampire; MWD+scrm(or web); 2 x 400mm plates, DC, Energ. and nano membranes = 20k+ EHP, 70% worst resist, 2471 m/s unheat with links, 26 sig, 5kk price. This thing can tank better then many cruisers. You can use 3-4 "punished" newbees to replace even Huginn+Lach when price matters. Frigate fleet main DPS: duals or focused, AB or MWD, 400mm plate and minimum 2 armor pumps. After the changes punisher will have mederate DPS for t1 frigates (160-180 unheated conflags), but best tank. When used with logis I think this thing will shine. Solo is still not so good, but more interesting then before: New AB+scrm Pun can be easy fitted 400mm plate + AR with speed 1000+ m/s, 160-180 DPS and stay cap stable. So you plan to use lasers instead of hybrids or projectiles? And be cap stable? Interesting. I feel like these changes will kill it as a PvE vessel. I wonder if they will change the military career mission giveaway ship to a Tormentor. For fleet DPS Puns lasers will be ok. For Solo, 200 AC+AR Pun is good and have many benefits. But 1000 m/s speed+no web make Pun incapable to control range. To compensate this I think about using the lasers. Lasers can apply good DPS to any target inside scrm range. Looks like Focused+AAR AB Pun wil have 1,5-2 mins of cap and could fully restore cap during AAR recharge. Has Pun enough armor buffer to servive AAR recharge tests will answer. Any way most of the frigate fights end before AAR recharge. Blasters are good for ships that have total control of combat range. That is not about Pun. PS: I do not understand how upcoming changes can kill Pun as PVE ship.

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 13484	Posted - 2015.11.24 15:05:10 - [594] - Quote Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1247	Posted - 2015.11.24 15:11:00 - [595] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. is that it? after 30 pages a minor if not irrelevant change T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1179	Posted - 2015.11.24 15:30:32 - [596] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 657	Posted - 2015.11.24 15:56:33 - [597] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least. What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC? Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements.. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1179	Posted - 2015.11.24 16:06:14 - [598] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least. What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC? Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements.. you actually think the muninn was good before the bc buffs?
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 243	Posted - 2015.11.24 16:29:23 - [599] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least. It's railly good Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 1923	Posted - 2015.11.24 16:31:55 - [600] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. 5 drones not 9 Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 658	Posted - 2015.11.24 16:42:22 - [601] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least. What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC? Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements.. you actually think the muninn was good before the bc buffs? It had its niche as a decent tracking alpha boat. Never thought it was "good" per say, but it was fun to alpha frigs with while going 3k/s (OH). It was poor in most fleet settings and barely managable in a solo role. The fleet cane is cheaper or on par in price, has better alpha, tracking, dps and more drones/utility. Plus it can sport a better tank than the muninn. It eclipses it in a fleet role short of speed/sig. So yea the muninn has always been pretty poor, but with the fleet cane out, there is 0 reason to use one except for lulz. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1179	Posted - 2015.11.24 16:47:45 - [602] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least. What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC? Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements.. you actually think the muninn was good before the bc buffs? It had its niche as a decent tracking alpha boat. Never thought it was "good" per say, but it was fun to alpha frigs with while going 3k/s (OH). It was poor in most fleet settings and barely managable in a solo role. The fleet cane is cheaper or on par in price, has better alpha, tracking, dps and more drones/utility. Plus it can sport a better tank than the muninn. It eclipses it in a fleet role short of speed/sig. So yea the muninn has always been pretty poor, but with the fleet cane out, there is 0 reason to use one except for lulz. but speed and sig is the entire point of using smaller ships. I could go for a minmatar missile hac, preferably not kiteshit.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 658	Posted - 2015.11.24 16:56:14 - [603] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least. What are your plans for the muninn which has completely lost its role since the navy cane? Will we see a proper minmatar brawler HAC? Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements.. you actually think the muninn was good before the bc buffs? It had its niche as a decent tracking alpha boat. Never thought it was "good" per say, but it was fun to alpha frigs with while going 3k/s (OH). It was poor in most fleet settings and barely managable in a solo role. The fleet cane is cheaper or on par in price, has better alpha, tracking, dps and more drones/utility. Plus it can sport a better tank than the muninn. It eclipses it in a fleet role short of speed/sig. So yea the muninn has always been pretty poor, but with the fleet cane out, there is 0 reason to use one except for lulz. but speed and sig is the entire point of using smaller ships. I could go for a minmatar missile hac, preferably not kiteshit. Depends on the role. For me speed and sig are not an issue when using my arty kite cane. It has such good tracking and alpha, most of the smaller **** can be popped before theyre even an issue. Against bigger things the raw alpha will normally bypass active tanks and bleed structure. In a fleet setting against BS, sure prob not a good idea. But against other BCs or cruisers, it will still work well and sport a better tank in either config than the muninn. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Matthew Dust Valklear Legionnaires 46	Posted - 2015.11.24 16:59:46 - [604] - Quote no need to take t3's out of small plexes, just a need to make assault frigates more viable, they have good tank, decent damage, making them suitable for heavy tackle, just give them hardcore heavy tackle bonus, let them use that focused warp disruption script, and an extra mid. Even if you take them out, it's not going to solve the issue of garmurs in small plexes that have so much initial velocity going that they burn out of the initial scram range
Rodent Sie Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.11.25 01:54:32 - [605] - Quote 31 pages of content regarding the nerfing of ships... and not one post that asks the obvious question, where is the nerf bat regarding the catalyst? Obviously it is OP as hell or all the high sec gankers wouldn't be exclusively using this ship to gank the poor helpless miners.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 531	Posted - 2015.11.25 02:11:24 - [606] - Quote Rodent Sie wrote: 31 pages of content regarding the nerfing of ships... and not one post that asks the obvious question, where is the nerf bat regarding the catalyst? Obviously it is OP as hell or all the high sec gankers wouldn't be exclusively using this ship to gank the poor helpless miners. cata is only op at ganking. it isnt op at fighting at all. which is why its no where in the rest of eve. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit 315	Posted - 2015.11.25 03:55:42 - [607] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: 5 drones not 9 Blow up drones, profit.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 243	Posted - 2015.11.25 07:16:58 - [608] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring. I like hull tanking as it is but I think turret ships should get the main use of it instead of drone boats, also some amarr boats should get a hull buff to give them an alternative to armor tanking for solo. So for frigs I think Tristan was best, why not give it to atron and executioner instead? For destroyers give it to coercer and catalyst instead of dragoon and algos, for cruisers give more hull hp to omen and thorax instead of the vexor and so on. It just suits turrets better than drones, and it gives armor ships a closer equivalent to shield tanking. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 421	Posted - 2015.11.25 16:46:21 - [609] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring. I like hull tanking as it is but I think turret ships should get the main use of it instead of drone boats, also some amarr boats should get a hull buff to give them an alternative to armor tanking for solo. So for frigs I think Tristan was best, why not give it to atron and executioner instead? For destroyers give it to coercer and catalyst instead of dragoon and algos, for cruisers give more hull hp to omen and thorax instead of the vexor and so on. It just suits turrets better than drones, and it gives armor ships a closer equivalent to shield tanking. The issue with hull tanking is that there is no drawback to it. There is no penalty. Armour has mass and speed penalties, shield has it a bit better with sig radius penalties. But hull doesn't have ****. A bit of agility and cargo space. There should be at least a bit more of an agility penalty.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1179	Posted - 2015.11.25 18:03:52 - [610] - Quote Goldensaver wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring. I like hull tanking as it is but I think turret ships should get the main use of it instead of drone boats, also some amarr boats should get a hull buff to give them an alternative to armor tanking for solo. So for frigs I think Tristan was best, why not give it to atron and executioner instead? For destroyers give it to coercer and catalyst instead of dragoon and algos, for cruisers give more hull hp to omen and thorax instead of the vexor and so on. It just suits turrets better than drones, and it gives armor ships a closer equivalent to shield tanking. The issue with hull tanking is that there is no drawback to it. There is no penalty. Armour has mass and speed penalties, shield has it a bit better with sig radius penalties. But hull doesn't have ****. A bit of agility and cargo space. There should be at least a bit more of an agility penalty. it's also omni-resists and capless, there's just no counterplay at all. really bad and not fun once you get over the 'lol hull tanking so funny' aspect. you don't even get the agility penalty if you're running aar + just hull rigs, like is optimal on a tristan or comet (which were already the best frigates before hull rigs were added). I'd suggest just removing it from the game because it's dumb.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2015.11.26 04:34:45 - [611] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. Structure hitpoints:) Yeah, that will totally kill its tank. How about limiting it's drone range?
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 915	Posted - 2015.11.26 12:36:17 - [612] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. How about limiting its drone range? Or how about a fitting restriction for bulkheads? Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 243	Posted - 2015.11.26 23:16:28 - [613] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Goldensaver wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. you should properly fix hull tanking, put a penalty on the rigs or something. they're way too good and have pretty much broken novice plex afterburner warrioring. I like hull tanking as it is but I think turret ships should get the main use of it instead of drone boats, also some amarr boats should get a hull buff to give them an alternative to armor tanking for solo. So for frigs I think Tristan was best, why not give it to atron and executioner instead? For destroyers give it to coercer and catalyst instead of dragoon and algos, for cruisers give more hull hp to omen and thorax instead of the vexor and so on. It just suits turrets better than drones, and it gives armor ships a closer equivalent to shield tanking. The issue with hull tanking is that there is no drawback to it. There is no penalty. Armour has mass and speed penalties, shield has it a bit better with sig radius penalties. But hull doesn't have ****. A bit of agility and cargo space. There should be at least a bit more of an agility penalty. it's also omni-resists and capless, there's just no counterplay at all. really bad and not fun once you get over the 'lol hull tanking so funny' aspect. you don't even get the agility penalty if you're running aar + just hull rigs, like is optimal on a tristan or comet (which were already the best frigates before hull rigs were added). I'd suggest just removing it from the game because it's dumb. It's just a decent buffer tank there's no way to active tank with it and no way to get reps, after nearly every fight you have to dock up and repair. It only really works on a few ships and even those are usually fit with armor or shield instead so it's not like you get amazing tank out of it, you get okay tank but you don't have to use many fitting slots to get a respectable tank, that's why we use it... it's not for omni resists because 60% resist profile is not special, and nearly all armor and shield buffer tanks are capless anyway (apart from invuln fields which are not that common in pvp) most tristans are shield tanked, but well I always used the Hull tanked tristan so i won't argue there it is very strong, same with the comet it was already very strong before hull tanking. But this is why i say make it an option for some of the lesser used ships in the game instead of the already good ships getting even more of a buff. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Dantelion Shinoni SQUIDS. 20	Posted - 2015.11.27 01:29:41 - [614] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.[...] Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements.. It's the Gallente poster boy in FW, so you won't see it get nerfed ever :^) Seriously though, the problem is not stricture tanking on Tristans, it's that them being pure drone boats frees a lot of fitting space they can abuse. Doing some micro-nerfs is useless, and at worst smells of wanting to fake a proper balancing of it. Address the fitting space as a Drone boat of the Tristan or just admit you want the ship to stay oppressive. (Approximately) Same thing for the Comet.
Davis TetrisKing The Vendunari End of Life 151	Posted - 2015.11.27 02:06:56 - [615] - Quote I'm really surprised at the Tristan hull nerf. I mean hull tristans are good, but I still see a lot more kitey shield tristans out there. I think the biggest advantage of the tristan is that drones are so versatile. There is no limit on engagement range and you don't need the high slots, which frees up a lot of PG/CPU or gives you lots of options for utility highs. It seems the issue people have with tristans is their versatility. They can be shield, armor or hull tanked, active or passive tanked, brawlers or kiters. And they have enough drones/drone hp that they'll kill you 1v1 before you can chew through all their drones. When you come across one in FW it's a pretty big gamble as to how they're fit. I dont know how to balance this, but I think nerfing their hull just takes away one of the more interesting things about them, but largely leaves the main issues untouched. I think the nerfs could be applied to drones themselves, especially considering how many of the nerfs recently have been to done boats (Ishtar, Gila, Worm, Tristan). Not just flat dps nerfs, but things like slowing their MWD speeds so that kiting drones is a normal thing to do, or making ewar effective against them, such as making webs and scrams affect all 5 drones if put on one of them or on the main ship (obviously this would have to be balanced properly, negating all 5 drones by kiting with 1 web could be devastating for some ships, but it would kind of mean the drone boat would have to get into brawl range to web their target themselves, I kind of see it as fair enough). Anyway, just my 5c. Sad to see the hero Tristan getting a large nerf but largely leaving the more popular builds fairly untouched.
Alxephon Chinese Gold Farmers xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx 0	Posted - 2015.11.27 04:14:15 - [616] - Quote How is it even possible to hit the Osprey Navy Issue and still miss the Caracal Navy Issue. It's worse than its T1 counterpart by a mile. The Exequror Navy issue is also still very underwhelming while the ONI and VNI come out leagues beyond other cruisers in their class for solo/small gang and the Augoror Navy Issue is clearly on top in regard to fleets. I'm not saying they should all be exactly the same, but they should all have at least a decent engagement profile.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2015.11.27 23:38:51 - [617] - Quote Dantelion Shinoni wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.[...] Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements.. It's the Gallente poster boy in FW, so you won't see it get nerfed ever :^) Seriously though, the problem is not stricture tanking on Tristans, it's that them being pure drone boats frees a lot of fitting space they can abuse. Doing some micro-nerfs is useless, and at worst smells of wanting to fake a proper balancing of it. Address the fitting space as a Drone boat of the Tristan or just admit you want the ship to stay oppressive. (Approximately) Same thing for the Comet. CCP has a clear Gallente bias. Even the rookie ship is objectively better than all the rest. They leave no stone unturned in their quest to make the "progressive liberals" dominate :)
Ray P State Protectorate Caldari State 6	Posted - 2015.11.27 23:46:11 - [618] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Dantelion Shinoni wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hi folks. Thanks for the feedback so far in this thread. After going over the discussion here, we agree that the Tristan is still a little too tanky, so we're adding a reduction in structure HP to its changes. We will of course continue monitoring feedback both before and after release. What about the comet? It completely overshadows the other navy frigs. Take away some of its dronebay/bandwidth at least.[...] Sure structure tanking tristans are annoying, but managable. Comets are just outright OP. they have almost the same base structure/armor/shield as a destroyer and drones w/ replacements.. It's the Gallente poster boy in FW, so you won't see it get nerfed ever :^) Seriously though, the problem is not stricture tanking on Tristans, it's that them being pure drone boats frees a lot of fitting space they can abuse. Doing some micro-nerfs is useless, and at worst smells of wanting to fake a proper balancing of it. Address the fitting space as a Drone boat of the Tristan or just admit you want the ship to stay oppressive. (Approximately) Same thing for the Comet. CCP has a clear Gallente bias. Even the rookie ship is objectively better than all the rest. They leave no stone unturned in their quest to make the "progressive liberals" dominate :) Galluminati confirmed
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2583	Posted - 2015.11.30 11:21:36 - [619] - Quote What can the new punisher do that a slicer doesn't just do better? 4 effective turrets for the cost of 2? Slicer does more damage. Tanking? Slicer's natural navy stats and better fitting let it tank better. The new punisher can certainly compete with these changes; it won't be the worst frigate in the game anymore. But the chosen changes don't really let it fill any role that is not done better by something else, excepting as a cheap slicer alternative for newbies or zerging. The missile idea was promoted because it would have given the punisher a unique role to fill in the amarr t1 frigate lineup. Tiercide was done to add unique roles and eliminate tiered ship line ups, yet the changes here are just enforcing the punisher's place as 'the ship you use only until you can use something better'. For whosoever shall lay his life down for his Lord He shall be taken into the arms of God And forever consecrated will he be. -Amarr-Askura 2:3
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 1948	Posted - 2015.11.30 11:43:15 - [620] - Quote Terranid Meester wrote: Lan Wang wrote: 5 drones not 9 Blow up drones, profit. have you actually tried to blow up 9 drones without dying? Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 924	Posted - 2015.11.30 13:27:01 - [621] - Quote Alxephon wrote: How is it even possible to hit the Osprey Navy Issue and still miss the Caracal Navy Issue. It's worse than its T1 counterpart by a mile. The Exequror Navy issue is also still very underwhelming while the ONI and VNI come out leagues beyond other cruisers in their class for solo/small gang and the Augoror Navy Issue is clearly on top in regard to fleets. I'm not saying they should all be exactly the same, but they should all have at least a decent engagement profile. I am sorry but what? I think you are confusing a logistic boat with an attack boat. The Navy Exequror is a fine ship and can crazy stuff. If the kids in lowsec weren't so hellbend of fitting all of their ships wrong you may notice that. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 665	Posted - 2015.11.30 15:11:36 - [622] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Alxephon wrote: How is it even possible to hit the Osprey Navy Issue and still miss the Caracal Navy Issue. It's worse than its T1 counterpart by a mile. The Exequror Navy issue is also still very underwhelming while the ONI and VNI come out leagues beyond other cruisers in their class for solo/small gang and the Augoror Navy Issue is clearly on top in regard to fleets. I'm not saying they should all be exactly the same, but they should all have at least a decent engagement profile. I am sorry but what? I think you are confusing a logistic boat with an attack boat. The Navy Exequror is a fine ship and can crazy stuff. If the kids in lowsec weren't so hellbend of fitting all of their ships wrong you may notice that. I agree with both of you. The navy exeq is viable, but is more skill intensive than say an ONI. Cap and fitting are a bit restrictive, but almost all the navy cruisers suffer from this. That being said, the navy caracal is utterly useless and the navy drake does everything it does, but better. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 112	Posted - 2015.11.30 15:30:09 - [623] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: What can the new punisher do that a slicer doesn't just do better? Buffer tank 22995 ehp? Quote: Slicer's natural navy stats and better fitting let it tank better. Punisher has stronger resists and enormously superior fitting resources. Quote: The chosen changes don't really let it fill any role that is not done better by something else. Small gang heavy tackle.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2583	Posted - 2015.11.30 21:54:35 - [624] - Quote Shalashaska Adam wrote: Buffer tank 22995 ehp? ... Punisher has stronger resists and enormously superior fitting resources. Only if it sacrifices the guns. Otherwise, the two-gun layout for the slicer gives it more fitting to work with in practice. But okay, I'll give you sheer buffer heavy tackle, if we completely ignore guns. Full buffer, it gets 3k more EHP than the slicer while being cheaper to lose. But that's still a niche use, and not one I see most of my fleets using. I was just hoping for a punisher that could fill more general fleet use. For whosoever shall lay his life down for his Lord He shall be taken into the arms of God And forever consecrated will he be. -Amarr-Askura 2:3
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 112	Posted - 2015.11.30 22:58:07 - [625] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Only if it sacrifices the guns. Otherwise, the two-gun layout for the slicer gives it more fitting to work with in practice. It has 18.75 more cpu, which may very well only serve to offset the guns. But the huge 21.25 of additonal pwg, plus the 20% resist bonus, makes its ability to buffer tank far in excess of the slicer. Quote: Full buffer, it gets 3k more EHP than the slicer while being cheaper to lose. I would be interested to see your fit for a 20000 ehp slicer, without implants or links, only squad boost. As far as I can see, it runs out of powergrid just trying to fit 2 plates and an afterburner. Punisher attains 22995 ehp with the following: 2x 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates 1x 200mm Steel Plates II 2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1x 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner 1x J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 4x 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 3x Small Trimark Armor Pump I Even though the role requires no guns, it still has a little fitting left over for a respectable 112 dps. For a total cost of 6 mil.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 536	Posted - 2015.11.30 23:16:00 - [626] - Quote fozzie if your not gonna give the amarr a 2nd weapon systemin their frigates, you need to hot fix all the other races to be forced to have only 1 weapon system for all frigates. minmatar projectiles caldari missiles gallente hybrids Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Poranius Fisc State War Academy Caldari State 24	Posted - 2015.12.01 00:14:08 - [627] - Quote Ransu Asanari wrote: For the Punisher, while Amarr don't have a direct missile progression path, there are a lot of T1 ships that use missiles as their secondary weapon - especially the EWAR type Arbitrator, Dragoon, Prophecy, and Armageddon. Gila and Worm nerfs are needed, no question. The change will probably break a lot of PVE setups for the Gila however, especially in W-Space. Will probably have to try on the test server to see how much of a difference it makes. Orthrus nerf is reasonable, and I think incremental is the way to go considering these are Pirate Faction ships. [/list] You've got it wrong. The amarr missile boats exist for caldari/minmatar pilots to get into armor fleets. Amarr primary weapons are Lasers/drones and a distant third being Missiles.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.12.01 01:48:44 - [628] - Quote Flyinghotpocket wrote: fozzie if your not gonna give the amarr a 2nd weapon systemin their frigates, you need to hot fix all the other races to be forced to have only 1 weapon system for all frigates. minmatar projectiles caldari missiles gallente hybrids No, because Amarr are the "bad guys" and must be mistreated at every step of development. As the so-called good guys the Gallente "Federation" (is it really a federation when former member had to fight a war gain sovereignty) is entitled to the best of everything and will probably get missiles frigs soon enough. It's not enough that they have a better armor tanking bonuses than Amarr while being able to use both shield and armor tank.
Sven Viko VIkolander Friends and Feminists 362	Posted - 2015.12.01 03:00:07 - [629] - Quote First and foremost, no svipul nerfs? The base speed on the ship is far too high. Over the past 6 months it has remained the #1 used ship for "pvp" by almost 100% (above the Saber and well above the next T3D by almost 200% most months). Something's seriously wrong in your metrics with respect to how you measure balance if you have not seen the svipul is in a terrible place. On to the ship specifics: 1) The breacher change is nice, but it is already one of the strongest T1 solo boats. And probably my favorite. I'm not sure it really needs the speed, but it won't hurt anything. 2) The Tristan nerf to the speed is about the only nerf it really needs. The nerf to hull does not affect kiting Tirstans much, because, generally, if you get a kiting Tristian into low hull you've probably already won. But, it won't ruin the ship, anyhow. 3) The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp and it currently has ample fitting room and tank. There is a current, viable but niche solo fit that involves flying it like a fat slicer. Adding power, cpu, a low slot, a turret, and a cap reduction on the is going to make this fit pretty strong, even with the 5% damage bonus removed. It probably won't be OP or overused, though, but you could just take the simple road and switch the ship to a 3rd mid... 4) Firetail and hookbill and Nosprey... thank you!! <3 However, rapid lights need a nerf, and the last thing the game really needs is yet another RLML boat with interceptor speeds. Just saying. 5) Orthrus.... Way to completely miss the point of why this ship is in a terrible place. It can still remove most t1 crusiers off the field before reload (again, a problem with RLML in general), in addition to being nearly as strong as some comparable AT ships in speed and tank, in addition to having a broken point/scram range. My solution would be to remove the bonus to scram distance, just keeping the bonus to point distance. This will let it remain a strong kiting ship while also making it actually somewhat engageable.
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2015.12.01 06:59:48 - [630] - Quote Sven Viko VIkolander wrote: The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 226	Posted - 2015.12.01 10:26:31 - [631] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Sven Viko VIkolander wrote: The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP? Why every ship should be "viable" for solo pvp? (and it is viable btw you just have to be extra picky about what you engage.)
Paladin Genghis Khanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2015.12.02 07:29:31 - [632] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Sven Viko VIkolander wrote: The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP? Why every ship should be "viable" for solo pvp? (and it is viable btw you just have to be extra picky about what you engage.) You enter a discussion knowing full well how completely on the wrong side you are when you have to answer a question with a question. Question: Why not? Answer: ALL the other ones are. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM. Unless, of course, I'm wrong and they all aren't. Am I wrong? So back to my question: What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP?
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 930	Posted - 2015.12.02 08:05:31 - [633] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Shalashaska Adam wrote: Buffer tank 22995 ehp? ... Punisher has stronger resists and enormously superior fitting resources. Only if it sacrifices the guns. Otherwise, the two-gun layout for the slicer gives it more fitting to work with in practice. But you're right, it is better for sheer buffer heavy tackle, if we completely ignore guns. Full buffer, it gets 3k more EHP than the slicer while being cheaper to lose. But that's still a niche use, and not one I see most of my fleets using. I was just hoping for a punisher that could have a bit wider use. Yep and blobbs is the only thing you can ever think of is happening all the time in New Eden. Oh my what some people call pvp which isn't even related in the slightiest... Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Patrick Nolen Imperial Guardians SpaceMonkey's Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.12.02 14:24:59 - [634] - Quote U know what ccp doing the best? it loosing players XD. more nerfs, and only ccp team will play eve :D ppl fly ships beacsue that ships are cool. gila is good ratting ship. when u do it there will be no next step ship after vni to ratting. vni->gila->rattle-> ishtar. this ship is too expensive for pvp why u nerf it? i dont get it. it have big bullseye on the back and everyone want to kill it... bad idea to nerf it but do what u want its your game.
Mad Abbat Talon Swarm NEOS FLEET 21	Posted - 2015.12.02 16:30:44 - [635] - Quote Patrick Nolen wrote: U know what ccp doing the best? it loosing players XD. more nerfs, and only ccp team will play eve :D ppl fly ships beacsue that ships are cool. gila is good ratting ship. when u do it there will be no next step ship after vni to ratting. vni->gila->rattle-> ishtar. this ship is too expensive for pvp why u nerf it? i dont get it. it have big bullseye on the back and everyone want to kill it... bad idea to nerf it but do what u want its your game. because cruiser should NOT do 800+ dmg on to target that is 50+km and have BC level tank.
Poranius Fisc State War Academy Caldari State 24	Posted - 2015.12.02 19:00:42 - [636] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Sven Viko VIkolander wrote: The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP? Griffin
Vailen Sere The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 13	Posted - 2015.12.02 19:07:28 - [637] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: Shalashaska Adam wrote: Buffer tank 22995 ehp? ... Punisher has stronger resists and enormously superior fitting resources. Only if it sacrifices the guns. Otherwise, the two-gun layout for the slicer gives it more fitting to work with in practice. But you're right, it is better for sheer buffer heavy tackle, if we completely ignore guns. Full buffer, it gets 3k more EHP than the slicer while being cheaper to lose. But that's still a niche use, and not one I see most of my fleets using. I was just hoping for a punisher that could have a bit wider use. Yep and blobbs is the only thing you can ever think of is happening all the time in New Eden. Oh my what some people call pvp which isn't even related in the slightiest... Lol! Probably the same people who are afraid of low sec because there's a gate camp at every gate (sarcasm). And they obviously do it in Blob formation to tank the gate guns.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 227	Posted - 2015.12.02 20:06:13 - [638] - Quote Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Paladin Genghis Khanid wrote: Sven Viko VIkolander wrote: The punisher....The ship is probably fine as it is, on the assumption that not every t1 frigate needs to be viable for solo pvp Jog my memory. What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP? Why every ship should be "viable" for solo pvp? (and it is viable btw you just have to be extra picky about what you engage.) You enter a discussion knowing full well how completely on the wrong side you are when you have to answer a question with a question. Question: Why not? Answer: ALL the other ones are. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM. Unless, of course, I'm wrong and they all aren't. Am I wrong? So back to my question: What are the other T1 frigates that aren't viable for solo PvP? Ok - vigil, griffin, bantam, navitas, burst, inquisitor. (all fit your criterion - all t1, all frigs) You can say that last 4 are all logi frigs and they are all balanced in their own group and I would agree with you there, but they still fitted your standard tho. Now we are left with vigil, griffin that can not solo in comparison with cruci, maulus that definitely can. So why are we not talking about how vigil and griffin can't solo? If a ship has a role even if it's a niche role as a punisher (cheap, heavy frig tackle) why should it be balanced around "can it solo or not". So my question wasn't trolling I just found notion of balancing things only on merit "can it solo or not" flawed, that's basically why I asked.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 673	Posted - 2015.12.02 22:24:11 - [639] - Quote Anything can solo if youre creative enough, and know how to pick targets. 10mn punisher allows range control w/o a web for one. Mwd+scram fit with nano+AAR would allow it to slingshot tristans very easily. Especially since the punisher will be faster than the tristan after these changes. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 113	Posted - 2015.12.03 03:08:17 - [640] - Quote Punisher is viable for solo, as is any ship that has weapons, simple as that really. No you don't have a web, so you have to catch things that can't escape from an afterburner/scram combo. If the lack of a web automatically made it unusable, then so would be every frig fit that puts the midslot to other uses. Yes you have to be selective, and yes you have try and catch targets by warping on them, as your slow on grid. But if the scram hits, good luck getting through your tank, you don't need mega dps when you have that much ehp.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 764	Posted - 2015.12.03 12:20:57 - [641] - Quote Patrick Nolen wrote: U know what ccp doing the best? it loosing players XD. more nerfs, and only ccp team will play eve :D ppl fly ships beacsue that ships are cool. gila is good ratting ship. when u do it there will be no next step ship after vni to ratting. vni->gila->rattle-> ishtar. this ship is too expensive for pvp why u nerf it? i dont get it. it have big bullseye on the back and everyone want to kill it... bad idea to nerf it but do what u want its your game. Too expensive for PvP? Heh. It costs half the price of a T2 fit T3 and is the most powerful cruiser sized small gang brawler in the game. 600 perfectly applied DPS with augmented (dirt cheap) hammerheads. 110k EHP tank with links, heat and full shield tank (let someone else do the tackling your job is to break ****.) Vastly quicker than any other drone boat especially with the shield ishtar now non-viable. Ship is nuts. It's the overall best pirate cruiser in the game and will remain so after losing ~40 DPS or some speed.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 764	Posted - 2015.12.03 12:26:27 - [642] - Quote And it's links that makes these hulls overpowered. The ships themselves are fine, it's the application of massive booster buffs to ships already engineered towards range and speed that is game breaking. Baseline Garmur/Orthrus is strong but not overpowered. HG Snakes make them a bit broken but that's a nearly 3B ISK pod. Links + even mid grades makes the ships absolutely insane. It's not the ships that are broken.
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 113	Posted - 2015.12.03 14:59:46 - [643] - Quote The removal of off grid links couldn't come sooner. Would solve so many an imbalance, would stealth nerf incursions, would accomplish a lot in one fell swoop. Simply a mechanic that should never of been a thing in the first place.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 766	Posted - 2015.12.04 01:14:24 - [644] - Quote I think there needs to be a greater realization that it's not the ships that are problematic, rather it's what they become when combined with links. A linked brawler can still be brought down. A ship like the Orthrus designed to be fast and hard hitting at range becomes oppressive when links make it impossible to catch by anything that doesn't die to a couple of RLML volleys.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1249	Posted - 2015.12.04 15:06:24 - [645] - Quote epic fail keeping the punisher changes, didnt it used too have cap use bonus and it was changed too damage? or was that just the maller, either way i bet punishers will be more blaster or auto fit than lasers now. T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Lara Divinity Black Scorpion Nomads 119	Posted - 2015.12.04 17:22:07 - [646] - Quote no point anymore to play this game nomore as a solo player i tried to keep up with all ur stupid changes and adapt but im reachin a point that im thinkin ** this n time to move on ill spend my good money elsewhere it will be tough to leave my friends behind but im done with the ** ccp is constantly bringin into this game matter a fact i should get my money back cos i dint pay for bullshit changes but hey good job ccp in losing players superawesome job keep it up everything dies somtime and this game is reachin its end ur changes just make it die faster
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 116	Posted - 2015.12.04 18:40:45 - [647] - Quote Good changes all around, especially for the punisher.
Ephigy InterSun Freelance SONS of BANE 0	Posted - 2015.12.05 02:37:26 - [648] - Quote RIP Heela. We had some fun together.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 278	Posted - 2015.12.05 03:56:35 - [649] - Quote Patrick Nolen wrote: U know what ccp doing the best? it loosing players XD. more nerfs, and only ccp team will play eve :D ppl fly ships beacsue that ships are cool. gila is good ratting ship. when u do it there will be no next step ship after vni to ratting. vni->gila->rattle-> ishtar. this ship is too expensive for pvp why u nerf it? i dont get it. it have big bullseye on the back and everyone want to kill it... bad idea to nerf it but do what u want its your game. Don't worry, the price of the Gilas are gonna drop down to 150 mill after the nerf kicks in.
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 424	Posted - 2015.12.05 04:31:07 - [650] - Quote Lara Divinity wrote: no point anymore to play this game nomore as a solo player i tried to keep up with all ur stupid changes and adapt but im reachin a point that im thinkin ** this n time to move on ill spend my good money elsewhere it will be tough to leave my friends behind but im done with the ** ccp is constantly bringin into this game matter a fact i should get my money back cos i dint pay for bullshit changes but hey good job ccp in losing players superawesome job keep it up everything dies somtime and this game is reachin its end ur changes just make it die faster Can I have your stuff?
Bruce T Wolf United Wolfs Nations 0	Posted - 2015.12.05 16:23:30 - [651] - Quote Well after having invested a massive amount of time training skills around the Gila I am pissed about the nerf.
Ephigy InterSun Freelance SONS of BANE 0	Posted - 2015.12.05 16:30:13 - [652] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Patrick Nolen wrote: U know what ccp doing the best? it loosing players XD. more nerfs, and only ccp team will play eve :D ppl fly ships beacsue that ships are cool. gila is good ratting ship. when u do it there will be no next step ship after vni to ratting. vni->gila->rattle-> ishtar. this ship is too expensive for pvp why u nerf it? i dont get it. it have big bullseye on the back and everyone want to kill it... bad idea to nerf it but do what u want its your game. Too expensive for PvP? Heh. It costs half the price of a T2 fit T3 and is the most powerful cruiser sized small gang brawler in the game. 600 perfectly applied DPS with augmented (dirt cheap) hammerheads. 110k EHP tank with links, heat and full shield tank (let someone else do the tackling your job is to break ****.) Vastly quicker than any other drone boat especially with the shield ishtar now non-viable. Ship is nuts. It's the overall best pirate cruiser in the game and will remain so after losing ~40 DPS or some speed. I don't think anyone is lamenting the DPS loss as much as the passive tanking loss. The power projection is still there, but the ability to tank the incoming damage is greatly reduced.
xXxNIMRODxXx Ministry of War Amarr Empire 35	Posted - 2015.12.05 22:46:06 - [653] - Quote Harvey James wrote: epic fail keeping the punisher changes, didnt it used too have cap use bonus and it was changed too damage? or was that just the maller, either way i bet punishers will be more blaster or auto fit than lasers now. rockets baby
Matrosov Glengoski Razyashchiy Big Red Button 2	Posted - 2015.12.06 20:25:08 - [654] - Quote My concern with the recent changes is the large group of people I know that love the gila for PVE. I do think the nerf to the Gila was surely coming but to remove a low slot? That really is a tough one to take and I'm happy I don't have any gila at the moment. The orthrus? Well I knew that was coming, I had bought one recently with other toons and saw how OP the thing can be. I beg to differ that its very well possible to catch and othrus and lock it down but I guess that would require a competent fleet to do right, where trying to do it solo would be a considerable challenge. Putting the nerfs aside, I feel (yes its an opinion) that should CCP make huge nerfs like this, they need to give people the option to reset some of the sp relating to nerfed ship(s) (but I can see how troublesome that could be to implement). If I trained a specific character to fly a certain ship only for CCP come around and nerf it yes I would be upset. Not everyone has multiple toons and for those players that only own one account I can certainly see how difficult it is for them to even attempt to try to adapt to all the changes CCP makes to the ships in game. I'm glad the Rattle was left untouched for now, I don't see how its too "OP" when I normally don't see solo flying pvp Rattles flying around in my space. Even if I did encounter one, I have the fleet and ships to deal with most rattlesnake setups. So saying its OP is a tad bit silly in my opinion, plus you need an extremely seasoned pilot to be able to make full use of a rattlesnake, so just trying to get the drone skills to properly fly one takes months and months, then you got missiles and shields to add on? Just when the new pilots think that training core skills already takes too long. Ha that's right I have to train to train two battleship skill books to even use the base bonuses for the ship so add on another four months at least? Edit: Setting all this aside, does this mean CCP will be nerfing any ship that is highly used with the current meta? Perpetual nerf for all ships so ships will always be nerfed not balanced? Just a thought. Its good for CCP trying to proactively help that game here, I just hope CCP does not shoot itself in the foot again. Thanks for the hard work CCP!
Mad Abbat Talon Swarm NEOS FLEET 28	Posted - 2015.12.07 03:59:50 - [655] - Quote xXxNIMRODxXx wrote: Harvey James wrote: epic fail keeping the punisher changes, didnt it used too have cap use bonus and it was changed too damage? or was that just the maller, either way i bet punishers will be more blaster or auto fit than lasers now. rockets baby or... actually the next fabbed starmer ship of choice! +1 cancer! I wish it had launcher hardpoints
sworphy Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.08 05:29:37 - [656] - Quote EPIC Fail CCP again!! For the love of god stop nerfing ships
Ffog Apex Clan 0	Posted - 2015.12.08 10:48:18 - [657] - Quote And people keep asking for SP for $ just to able to fly ships after this patch! SP for $ would be plain taking a **** on all the time older players have spent on this hobby. Quit crying about it and invest some time like the rest of us! Towards the changes to the frigs here \o/ i like it. Only thing here that looks broken is the Gila-Worm nerf, it is still broken OP a better fix here would be to tone down the drone dps/healt bonus a fair bit. Specialy the kiting Worm drones that plain wont die fit is not realy nerfed at all by loosing a lowslot.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 772	Posted - 2015.12.08 10:54:57 - [658] - Quote Matrosov Glengoski Razyashchiy wrote: My concern with the recent changes is the large group of people I know that love the gila for PVE. I do think the nerf to the Gila was surely coming but to remove a low slot? That really is a tough one to take and I'm happy I don't have any gila at the moment. The orthrus? Well I knew that was coming, I had bought one recently with other toons and saw how OP the thing can be. I beg to differ that its very well possible to catch an othrus and lock it down but I guess that would require a competent fleet to do right, where trying to do it solo would be a considerable challenge. Putting the nerfs aside, I feel (yes its an opinion) that should CCP make huge nerfs like this, they need to give people the option to reset some of the sp relating to nerfed ship(s) (but I can see how troublesome that could be to implement). If I trained a specific character to fly a certain ship only for CCP come around and nerf it yes I would be upset. Not everyone has multiple toons and for those players that only own one account I can certainly see how difficult it is for them to even attempt to try to adapt to all the changes CCP makes to the ships in game. I'm glad the Rattle was left untouched for now, I don't see how its too "OP" when I normally don't see solo flying pvp Rattles flying around in my space. Even if I did encounter one, I have the fleet and ships to deal with most rattlesnake setups. So saying its OP is a tad bit silly in my opinion, plus you need an extremely seasoned pilot to be able to make full use of a rattlesnake, so just trying to get the drone skills to properly fly one takes months and months, then you got missiles and shields to add on? Just when the new pilots think that training core skills already takes too long. Ha that's right I have to train to train two battleship skill books to even use the base bonuses for the ship so add on another four months at least? Edit: Setting all this aside, does this mean CCP will be nerfing any ship that is highly used with the current meta? Perpetual nerf for all ships so ships will always be nerfed not balanced? Just a thought. Its good for CCP trying to proactively help that game here, I just hope CCP does not shoot itself in the foot again. Thanks for the hard work CCP! It's impossible to catch a linked Orthrus with a competent pilot. Add HG Snakes and it just becomes silly. Doesn't matter what your fleet comp is. Decloaking a rapier or Loki on him with dual webs MIGHT work but that's about it, and he's gonna start burning off and trying to warp as soon as he sees it so you'll have to simultaneously land a long range point (proteus, another orthrus or Gallente recon). Frigates get alpha'd offgrid in 1-3 volleys and linked Orthrus can outrun anything with tank. The gila is still gonna be the best overall pirate cruiser. Can't really balance hulls around PvE.
Irya Boone Never Surrender. 471	Posted - 2015.12.08 21:15:40 - [659] - Quote So the tristan get nerfed .. but not the garmur seriously ? well done ccp CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !! you shall all bow and pray BoB
BahWeepGrahNaWeep MiniBom Bah Weep Grah Na Weep Mini Bahm 0	Posted - 2015.12.08 21:46:59 - [660] - Quote The gila suck now as a passive tank ship. Tried it on the test server. hit certain sites or 4 ecalation and you'll either bail on the site to let your shield come back or loose your gila. In most markets it was 100M more than any other. what a terrible fricken nerf. I used it for PVE. Guess I wont any more and with the nerf, my gila aint worth what I paid for it either. Thanks CCP.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2103	Posted - 2015.12.08 21:57:48 - [661] - Quote Bruce T Wolf wrote: Well after having invested a massive amount of time training skills around the Gila I am pissed about the nerf. I mean totally its not like all of those skills affect other ships in the game... total waste of time. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 424	Posted - 2015.12.08 23:47:46 - [662] - Quote BahWeepGrahNaWeep MiniBom wrote: The gila suck now as a passive tank ship. Tried it on the test server. hit certain sites or 4 ecalation and you'll either bail on the site to let your shield come back or loose your gila. In most markets it was 100M more than any other. what a terrible fricken nerf. I used it for PVE. Guess I wont any more and with the nerf, my gila aint worth what I paid for it either. Thanks CCP. Wow. It was 100m more than any other pirate cruiser on the market despite being in the most farmed area of null and having the highest supply. Odd. It's almost like demand was unnaturally large due to the incredible power of the ship compared to literally anything else in its class. But it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the Gila being OP. It's just that the market was skewed and it deserves to be more powerful to match it's price. Players don't set the market and prices at all.
Vitriol Joringer Vengar Holdings 0	Posted - 2015.12.09 03:07:59 - [663] - Quote If you feel that the Barghest is under preforming, then why the NeRf!!!! I understand that if all your skills are lvl 5 that it is actually a very slight bumb to dps, but not everyone has lvl 5 in all of the relevant skills. My DPS dropped by nearly 100 from the loss of the extra Missile Hard point! My Caldari Battleship skill is at 4 Cruise Missile Specialization is at 3 Guided Missile Precision Missile Bombardment Missile Launcher Operation Missile Projection Rapid Launch Target Navigation Prediction are all lvl 5 and Finally Warhead Upgrades is at lvl 4 As you can see, most of my Relevant skills are already at lvl 5, Getting My Battleship to lvl 5 is going to net a whole 10% increase, which is huge, but it also takes 26 days and I am optimized for Perception and Will Power with +4 implants on all attributes. Now getting all 3 of those skills would net me a grand total of +17% dmg 10% from Caldari Battleship, 4% from Cruise Missile Specialization going from lvl 3 (current) to lvl 5 and 3% from raising Warhead Upgrades to lvl 5. My POINT being that I most certainly did not lose 17% dps, so how is raising all this to lvl 5 going to be a "slight bump" as you put it. I'm not a math guy, but I can clearly see that my Barghest took a Huge hit to DPS, and to be honest, I never used the first High utility slot anyways, so I really don't need a second. I am very displeased with the changes to the Barghest, this is one of my Favorite ships in general and certainly my favorite Battleship. I would have rather seen a drop to the 5% per lvl skill bonus to maybe 2% ~ 3% and if any thing an increase to the number of Missile launcher Hard Points from 7 to 8! Perhaps this would actually be less of a boost than the current changes, perhaps it would be OP, again I'm not a math guy, but I do know that with my skills, I took a serious hit to DPS, which vastly impacts me because I use this ship for PvE Lvl 4 mission running and ratting. Failing that, could you at least try and re vamp this so that it does not simply favor people with all maxed out lvl 5 skills and penalize people with almost all lvl 5 skills with only one or two at lvl 4! Sorry for the long post, but this ship is very important to me and I was doing fine just the way it was, now I feel like I just got beat to death with a NeRf hammer.
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 425	Posted - 2015.12.09 05:07:24 - [664] - Quote Vitriol Joringer wrote: If you feel that the Barghest is under preforming, then why the NeRf!!!! I understand that if all your skills are lvl 5 that it is actually a very slight bumb to dps, but not everyone has lvl 5 in all of the relevant skills. My DPS dropped by nearly 100 from the loss of the extra Missile Hard point! My Caldari Battleship skill is at 4 Cruise Missile Specialization is at 3 Guided Missile Precision Missile Bombardment Missile Launcher Operation Missile Projection Rapid Launch Target Navigation Prediction are all lvl 5 and Finally Warhead Upgrades is at lvl 4 As you can see, most of my Relevant skills are already at lvl 5, Getting My Battleship to lvl 5 is going to net a whole 10% increase, which is huge, but it also takes 26 days and I am optimized for Perception and Will Power with +4 implants on all attributes. Now getting all 3 of those skills would net me a grand total of +17% dmg 10% from Caldari Battleship, 4% from Cruise Missile Specialization going from lvl 3 (current) to lvl 5 and 3% from raising Warhead Upgrades to lvl 5. My POINT being that I most certainly did not lose 17% dps, so how is raising all this to lvl 5 going to be a "slight bump" as you put it. I'm not a math guy, but I can clearly see that my Barghest took a Huge hit to DPS, and to be honest, I never used the first High utility slot anyways, so I really don't need a second. I am very displeased with the changes to the Barghest, this is one of my Favorite ships in general and certainly my favorite Battleship. I would have rather seen a drop to the 5% per lvl skill bonus to maybe 2% ~ 3% and if any thing an increase to the number of Missile launcher Hard Points from 7 to 8! Perhaps this would actually be less of a boost than the current changes, perhaps it would be OP, again I'm not a math guy, but I do know that with my skills, I took a serious hit to DPS, which vastly impacts me because I use this ship for PvE Lvl 4 mission running and ratting. Failing that, could you at least try and re vamp this so that it does not simply favor people with all maxed out lvl 5 skills and penalize people with almost all lvl 5 skills with only one or two at lvl 4! Sorry for the long post, but this ship is very important to me and I was doing fine just the way it was, now I feel like I just got beat to death with a NeRf hammer. Odd. By my math (6+ù1.5=8.4, 7+ù1.2=8.4) you should have the same damage as before. Were you previously including drone DPS, using a different type of missiles (Rage? Faction?) or doing something differently? It should be the exact same as before unless either something on your ship changed or something is bugged. Edit: also, you don't have 17% more damage to gain from skills. It's a bit less than 15% more DPS.
Vodoss D'Morte Talon Materials LLC 1	Posted - 2015.12.09 05:39:03 - [665] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Bruce T Wolf wrote: Well after having invested a massive amount of time training skills around the Gila I am pissed about the nerf. I mean totally its not like all of those skills affect other ships in the game... total waste of time. I'm irritated enough to consider closing accounts. I also don't like being slowly pushed into turret ships, nor the looks of non-Caldari Ships.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 773	Posted - 2015.12.09 08:28:04 - [666] - Quote Vodoss D'Morte wrote: MeBiatch wrote: Bruce T Wolf wrote: Well after having invested a massive amount of time training skills around the Gila I am pissed about the nerf. I mean totally its not like all of those skills affect other ships in the game... total waste of time. I'm irritated enough to consider closing accounts. I also don't like being slowly pushed into turret ships, nor the looks of non-Caldari Ships. Can I have your stuff?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2758	Posted - 2015.12.09 10:16:14 - [667] - Quote Vodoss D'Morte wrote: I'm irritated enough to consider closing accounts. I also don't like being slowly pushed into turret ships, nor the looks of non-Caldari Ships. You aren't. Missile ships are still fine after this update. In fact some of them are the most powerful in their class still.
Vitriol Joringer Vengar Holdings 0	Posted - 2015.12.09 11:17:25 - [668] - Quote Quote: Odd. By my math (6+ù1.5=8.4, 7+ù1.2=8.4) you should have the same damage as before. Were you previously including drone DPS, using a different type of missiles (Rage? Faction?) or doing something differently? It should be the exact same as before unless either something on your ship changed or something is bugged. Edit: also, you don't have 17% more damage to gain from skills. It's a bit less than 15% more DPS. Yes actually I was accounting for Drone DPS, I lost all my drones in a recent mission, however, after looking over it again, I still believe that I lost some dps along the way. I would say that it was more in the range of 20 ~ 30 dps as opposed to my initial panic. This my be because of a bug, I have not done anything differently, however, after running a few mission I can say that overall, I AM killing most battleships about as fast as I was, so I am inclined to think that you are correct, I have close to around the same dps as before. I would still rather have 8 hard points and have a dmg bonus that was adjusted to even it out to about the same as is current, i.e. 9 effective Launchers as opposed to the old 8.75. I just like seeing more missiles fire :) Thank you for your post, I am unaccustomed to kind/helpful people on EVE :P
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 425	Posted - 2015.12.09 13:09:02 - [669] - Quote Vitriol Joringer wrote: Quote: Odd. By my math (6+ù1.5=8.4, 7+ù1.2=8.4) you should have the same damage as before. Were you previously including drone DPS, using a different type of missiles (Rage? Faction?) or doing something differently? It should be the exact same as before unless either something on your ship changed or something is bugged. Edit: also, you don't have 17% more damage to gain from skills. It's a bit less than 15% more DPS. Yes actually I was accounting for Drone DPS, I lost all my drones in a recent mission, however, after looking over it again, I still believe that I lost some dps along the way. I would say that it was more in the range of 20 ~ 30 dps as opposed to my initial panic. This my be because of a bug, I have not done anything differently, however, after running a few mission I can say that overall, I AM killing most battleships about as fast as I was, so I am inclined to think that you are correct, I have close to around the same dps as before. I would still rather have 8 hard points and have a dmg bonus that was adjusted to even it out to about the same as is current, i.e. 9 effective Launchers as opposed to the old 8.75. I just like seeing more missiles fire :) Thank you for your post, I am unaccustomed to kind/helpful people on EVE :P Fair enough. Now that they have pretty missile trails and models they can actually be interesting to look at instead of a glowing ball that doesn't change in intensity based on the number of missiles bring fired. Hopefully you find your missing DPS though.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 683	Posted - 2015.12.09 21:30:37 - [670] - Quote Theory crafted some punisher fits and i think it will have a few niche in solo play. 10mn AB with beams, good for about 160dps IIRC and about 2.2k/s cold Brick tanked tackle - 19k EHP dual 400mm with acs. I guess useful if you can catch initial scram Anti-kiter (tristan counter) - pulse lasers, mwd, scram, nano, AAR and x2 heat sinks for about 180dps and 230dps with conflag. 2800m/s cold, 4k+ hot. I think this will make the punisher viable in a few different roles including a couple solo ones. I will probably take a few out to harass kitey ships in FW. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Shalashaska Adam Partial Safety 119	Posted - 2015.12.10 02:14:34 - [671] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Brick tanked tackle - 19k EHP dual 400mm with acs. I guess useful if you can catch initial scram. Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 200mm Steel Plates II 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I 23k with squad boost
Valkin Mordirc 1800	Posted - 2015.12.11 18:36:05 - [672] - Quote Vitriol Joringer wrote: Quote: Odd. By my math (6+ù1.5=8.4, 7+ù1.2=8.4) you should have the same damage as before. Were you previously including drone DPS, using a different type of missiles (Rage? Faction?) or doing something differently? It should be the exact same as before unless either something on your ship changed or something is bugged. Edit: also, you don't have 17% more damage to gain from skills. It's a bit less than 15% more DPS. Yes actually I was accounting for Drone DPS, I lost all my drones in a recent mission, however, after looking over it again, I still believe that I lost some dps along the way. I would say that it was more in the range of 20 ~ 30 dps as opposed to my initial panic. This my be because of a bug, I have not done anything differently, however, after running a few mission I can say that overall, I AM killing most battleships about as fast as I was, so I am inclined to think that you are correct, I have close to around the same dps as before. I would still rather have 8 hard points and have a dmg bonus that was adjusted to even it out to about the same as is current, i.e. 9 effective Launchers as opposed to the old 8.75. I just like seeing more missiles fire :) Thank you for your post, I am unaccustomed to kind/helpful people on EVE :P If you basing your numbers on the ingame fitting tool, sometimes it will bug and give you an inaccurate DPS number. It happens from my experience with missile ships primarily. It's possible you encountered this bug. I have two 100mn tengu's fitted the same that one time the In-Game fitting tool that told me one of the 100mn's was doing about 100ish dps over the other one. So I would personally use EFT or Pyfa if you want to see consistent numbers, they are more detailed for Projected DPS and Projected tank as well making it easier to plan out a fit for it's intended job anyways. Though CCP is currently working on a new fitting tool as we speak. So +1 to that. ^.^ `#DeleteTheWeak`
Whitehairedmama Tzestu Bah Weep Grah Na Weep Mini Bahm 0	Posted - 2015.12.12 05:10:41 - [673] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Matrosov Glengoski Razyashchiy wrote: My concern with the recent changes is the large group of people I know that love the gila for PVE. I do think the nerf to the Gila was surely coming but to remove a low slot? That really is a tough one to take and I'm happy I don't have any gila at the moment. The orthrus? Well I knew that was coming, I had bought one recently with other toons and saw how OP the thing can be. I beg to differ that its very well possible to catch an othrus and lock it down but I guess that would require a competent fleet to do right, where trying to do it solo would be a considerable challenge. Putting the nerfs aside, I feel (yes its an opinion) that should CCP make huge nerfs like this, they need to give people the option to reset some of the sp relating to nerfed ship(s) (but I can see how troublesome that could be to implement). If I trained a specific character to fly a certain ship only for CCP come around and nerf it yes I would be upset. Not everyone has multiple toons and for those players that only own one account I can certainly see how difficult it is for them to even attempt to try to adapt to all the changes CCP makes to the ships in game. I'm glad the Rattle was left untouched for now, I don't see how its too "OP" when I normally don't see solo flying pvp Rattles flying around in my space. Even if I did encounter one, I have the fleet and ships to deal with most rattlesnake setups. So saying its OP is a tad bit silly in my opinion, plus you need an extremely seasoned pilot to be able to make full use of a rattlesnake, so just trying to get the drone skills to properly fly one takes months and months, then you got missiles and shields to add on? Just when the new pilots think that training core skills already takes too long. Ha that's right I have to train to train two battleship skill books to even use the base bonuses for the ship so add on another four months at least? Edit: Setting all this aside, does this mean CCP will be nerfing any ship that is highly used with the current meta? Perpetual nerf for all ships so ships will always be nerfed not balanced? Just a thought. Its good for CCP trying to proactively help that game here, I just hope CCP does not shoot itself in the foot again. Thanks for the hard work CCP! It's impossible to catch a linked Orthrus with a competent pilot. Add HG Snakes and it just becomes silly. Doesn't matter what your fleet comp is. Decloaking a rapier or Loki on him with dual webs MIGHT work but that's about it, and he's gonna start burning off and trying to warp as soon as he sees it so you'll have to simultaneously land a long range point (proteus, another orthrus or Gallente recon). Frigates get alpha'd offgrid in 1-3 volleys and linked Orthrus can outrun anything with tank. The gila is still gonna be the best overall pirate cruiser. Can't really balance hulls around PvE. 60k EHP with tackle or 80k without plus 650 perfectly applied DPS (drones and RLML) inside a 50k envelope? 110k EHP with links and heated hardeners on a non-tackle fleet fit? On a cruiser? What are you complaining about again? Only problem is RLML mean you have to have pretty much max skills in all things related to them in order to USE ALL 4 RLML, otherwise you can only use 3. Now I have to wait an additional 10 days to train weapon upgrades to be able to use all 4 RLML again, because the -20 cpu nerf nixed using 4 for me now. Not to mention my passive tank is now 208 instead of 296 before the loss of the low slot. I dont use the gile for PVP, I used it for PVE. The passive tank loss hurt more than having to wait 10 days
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 428	Posted - 2015.12.12 10:32:15 - [674] - Quote Whitehairedmama Tzestu wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Matrosov Glengoski Razyashchiy wrote: My concern with the recent changes is the large group of people I know that love the gila for PVE. I do think the nerf to the Gila was surely coming but to remove a low slot? That really is a tough one to take and I'm happy I don't have any gila at the moment. The orthrus? Well I knew that was coming, I had bought one recently with other toons and saw how OP the thing can be. I beg to differ that its very well possible to catch an othrus and lock it down but I guess that would require a competent fleet to do right, where trying to do it solo would be a considerable challenge. Putting the nerfs aside, I feel (yes its an opinion) that should CCP make huge nerfs like this, they need to give people the option to reset some of the sp relating to nerfed ship(s) (but I can see how troublesome that could be to implement). If I trained a specific character to fly a certain ship only for CCP come around and nerf it yes I would be upset. Not everyone has multiple toons and for those players that only own one account I can certainly see how difficult it is for them to even attempt to try to adapt to all the changes CCP makes to the ships in game. I'm glad the Rattle was left untouched for now, I don't see how its too "OP" when I normally don't see solo flying pvp Rattles flying around in my space. Even if I did encounter one, I have the fleet and ships to deal with most rattlesnake setups. So saying its OP is a tad bit silly in my opinion, plus you need an extremely seasoned pilot to be able to make full use of a rattlesnake, so just trying to get the drone skills to properly fly one takes months and months, then you got missiles and shields to add on? Just when the new pilots think that training core skills already takes too long. Ha that's right I have to train to train two battleship skill books to even use the base bonuses for the ship so add on another four months at least? Edit: Setting all this aside, does this mean CCP will be nerfing any ship that is highly used with the current meta? Perpetual nerf for all ships so ships will always be nerfed not balanced? Just a thought. Its good for CCP trying to proactively help that game here, I just hope CCP does not shoot itself in the foot again. Thanks for the hard work CCP! It's impossible to catch a linked Orthrus with a competent pilot. Add HG Snakes and it just becomes silly. Doesn't matter what your fleet comp is. Decloaking a rapier or Loki on him with dual webs MIGHT work but that's about it, and he's gonna start burning off and trying to warp as soon as he sees it so you'll have to simultaneously land a long range point (proteus, another orthrus or Gallente recon). Frigates get alpha'd offgrid in 1-3 volleys and linked Orthrus can outrun anything with tank. The gila is still gonna be the best overall pirate cruiser. Can't really balance hulls around PvE. 60k EHP with tackle or 80k without plus 650 perfectly applied DPS (drones and RLML) inside a 50k envelope? 110k EHP with links and heated hardeners on a non-tackle fleet fit? On a cruiser? What are you complaining about again? Only problem is RLML mean you have to have pretty much max skills in all things related to them in order to USE ALL 4 RLML, otherwise you can only use 3. Now I have to wait an additional 10 days to train weapon upgrades to be able to use all 4 RLML again, because the -20 cpu nerf nixed using 4 for me now. Not to mention my passive tank is now 208 instead of 296 before the loss of the low slot. I dont use the gile for PVP, I used it for PVE. The passive tank loss hurt more than having to wait 10 days You're complaining about having to train a staple skill almost everybody trains to 5 instantly so they can start on AWU? You're really bad if you think fitting should be easy with trash tier skills. Also if the tank is inadequate you can always change a damage mod or two to tank mods. It's a valid fitting tradeoff. Trading tank for damage. Like almost every other ship in game. What a concept. Actually having to make concessions in your fit rather then fitting everything on it easily.
TenTen Artakian Hellenic Minerals Co 1	Posted - 2015.12.12 16:11:33 - [675] - Quote dont mess with my gilaaaaa..i need more slots ..why you do that ??
Whitehairedmama Tzestu Bah Weep Grah Na Weep Mini Bahm 0	Posted - 2015.12.13 02:58:09 - [676] - Quote Goldensaver wrote: Whitehairedmama Tzestu wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Matrosov Glengoski Razyashchiy wrote: My concern with the recent changes is the large group of people I know that love the gila for PVE. I do think the nerf to the Gila was surely coming but to remove a low slot? That really is a tough one to take and I'm happy I don't have any gila at the moment. The orthrus? Well I knew that was coming, I had bought one recently with other toons and saw how OP the thing can be. I beg to differ that its very well possible to catch an othrus and lock it down but I guess that would require a competent fleet to do right, where trying to do it solo would be a considerable challenge. Putting the nerfs aside, I feel (yes its an opinion) that should CCP make huge nerfs like this, they need to give people the option to reset some of the sp relating to nerfed ship(s) (but I can see how troublesome that could be to implement). If I trained a specific character to fly a certain ship only for CCP come around and nerf it yes I would be upset. Not everyone has multiple toons and for those players that only own one account I can certainly see how difficult it is for them to even attempt to try to adapt to all the changes CCP makes to the ships in game. I'm glad the Rattle was left untouched for now, I don't see how its too "OP" when I normally don't see solo flying pvp Rattles flying around in my space. Even if I did encounter one, I have the fleet and ships to deal with most rattlesnake setups. So saying its OP is a tad bit silly in my opinion, plus you need an extremely seasoned pilot to be able to make full use of a rattlesnake, so just trying to get the drone skills to properly fly one takes months and months, then you got missiles and shields to add on? Just when the new pilots think that training core skills already takes too long. Ha that's right I have to train to train two battleship skill books to even use the base bonuses for the ship so add on another four months at least? Edit: Setting all this aside, does this mean CCP will be nerfing any ship that is highly used with the current meta? Perpetual nerf for all ships so ships will always be nerfed not balanced? Just a thought. Its good for CCP trying to proactively help that game here, I just hope CCP does not shoot itself in the foot again. Thanks for the hard work CCP! It's impossible to catch a linked Orthrus with a competent pilot. Add HG Snakes and it just becomes silly. Doesn't matter what your fleet comp is. Decloaking a rapier or Loki on him with dual webs MIGHT work but that's about it, and he's gonna start burning off and trying to warp as soon as he sees it so you'll have to simultaneously land a long range point (proteus, another orthrus or Gallente recon). Frigates get alpha'd offgrid in 1-3 volleys and linked Orthrus can outrun anything with tank. The gila is still gonna be the best overall pirate cruiser. Can't really balance hulls around PvE. 60k EHP with tackle or 80k without plus 650 perfectly applied DPS (drones and RLML) inside a 50k envelope? 110k EHP with links and heated hardeners on a non-tackle fleet fit? On a cruiser? What are you complaining about again? Only problem is RLML mean you have to have pretty much max skills in all things related to them in order to USE ALL 4 RLML, otherwise you can only use 3. Now I have to wait an additional 10 days to train weapon upgrades to be able to use all 4 RLML again, because the -20 cpu nerf nixed using 4 for me now. Not to mention my passive tank is now 208 instead of 296 before the loss of the low slot. I dont use the gile for PVP, I used it for PVE. The passive tank loss hurt more than having to wait 10 days You're complaining about having to train a staple skill almost everybody trains to 5 instantly so they can start on AWU? You're really bad if you think fitting should be easy with trash tier skills. Also if the tank is inadequate you can always change a damage mod or two to tank mods. It's a valid fitting tradeoff. Trading tank for damage. Like almost every other ship in game. What a concept. Actually having to make concessions in your fit rather then fitting everything on it easily. Its a matter of what works and what doesn't. Not everyone does the same thing. I actually like passive over active for PVE, it makes more sense. They should have left it alone.
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Just let it happen 428	Posted - 2015.12.13 20:36:46 - [677] - Quote Whitehairedmama Tzestu wrote: Its a matter of what works and what doesn't. Not everyone does the same thing. I actually like passive over active for PVE, it makes more sense. They should have left it alone. There's no way in hell they should have left the Gila alone. It was an abomination, a monster, a crime against game balance. It needed something drastic done to it, and it got something drastic done. If you think this nerf is the wrong thing, propose another drastic nerf that brings it in line with other ships in its class. It could have lost a medium slot and 50 PWG instead. Or maybe the HP bonus to its drones and 100% off of the damage bonus. I don't know, I can't very well plates these changes. But it needed something severe done to it. If you think the Gila was fine, why notexplain why it was fine by explaining how the other pirate cruisers had valid roles where they weren't overshadowed by the Gila besides the Orthrus. Explain why it should be so good that demand had driven the price higher than any other ship in class despite the larger supply due to over farming of Guristas regions. Explain why you think the go to in any situation other than kiting like a ***** (Orthrus) should be the Gila.
Celise Katelo State War Academy Caldari State 174	Posted - 2015.12.13 23:48:39 - [678] - Quote What a load of bollocks this patch is for the Gila Clearly you didn't put much effort into your maths & what you could change instead of the loss of a low slot. EVEBoard ...Just over 30million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1255	Posted - 2015.12.14 00:06:05 - [679] - Quote Celise Katelo wrote: What a load of bollocks this patch is for the Gila Clearly you didn't put much effort into your maths & what you could change instead of the loss of a low slot. that lowslot only costs you about 70dps or for pve some tankability with passive fits but even with that nerf its still a very strong ship easily the match of a drake in a straight brawl, which is kind of odd really T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely. ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 highslots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Whitehairedmama Tzestu Bah Weep Grah Na Weep Mini Bahm 0	Posted - 2015.12.14 04:38:47 - [680] - Quote The gila has lost alot of usability with the nerf. Before running PVE escalations were doable without have to bail with a passive tank. Now it can't be done. to much incoming damage vs outgoing. It was slow and moved like it had an anchor tied to it. now its slow and almsot unuseable as a passive shield tank for PVE. It has almost 1k more shield than any other cruiser, maybe knock that back 500 and drop done dam bonus done to 350/400.
TenTen Artakian Hellenic Minerals Co 1	Posted - 2015.12.16 13:33:11 - [681] - Quote -1 slot for gila???? why???? so stuid
Zoro Astra Republic University Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.12.19 20:07:20 - [682] - Quote I'm also disappointed to have my lovely Gila gutted. The problem with metrics based balancing is that it can be perfect, and perfect balance means no outliers. No outliers collapses down the interesting combinations of play styles and ships that work, and then it doesn't matter what ship you choose. They are all perfectly balanced, perfectly identical. The danger of perfect balance in a game with skill progression over time is that it makes exploring the content pointless. The passive tank on the Gila was an outlier, but was it truly causing real problems other than a red entry in a spreadsheet? Surely there were better ways? Buff the rest of the universe. Create new and better sweet spots elsewhere. Cut down/off the supply of new Gilas. But don't take away my treasured toy. Perfect balance will cut the number of Gila's flying, but if you systematically take their toys away, casual and lazy players like me won't switch to other ships, they'll switch to other games. The main objective of MMO design is to hide from the player for as long as possible that the game is fundamentally pointless (which they all are btw). Perfect balance cuts that time. So does nerfng x rather than buffing not x.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 551	Posted - 2015.12.20 03:43:25 - [683] - Quote the gila tears are so good. i might have to start flying the ship again. now that its UP Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Kenyon Boirelle Astra Cruentus Zoo Corp 0	Posted - 2016.01.03 02:48:32 - [684] - Quote Quote: Orthrus: Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level So I pay for game time to skill up level 5 to get the bonus and then you come along and "nerf it" and take the bonus away. OK Do I get a refund for the time I paid for to skill up this mistake you made in your game?
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 720	Posted - 2016.01.03 22:20:28 - [685] - Quote Kenyon Boirelle wrote: Quote: Orthrus: Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level So I pay for game time to skill up level 5 to get the bonus and then you come along and "nerf it" and take the bonus away. OK Do I get a refund for the time I paid for to skill up this mistake you made in your game? they didn't take any bonus away. You're level 5 skill still gets you to level 5. They reduced the damage amount which is fair considering the ship is oppressively powerful and bad for the game. Cry more about how you trained into an obviously OP FOTM ship knowing full well its going to be nerfed eventually. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 252	Posted - 2016.01.08 04:47:42 - [686] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Kenyon Boirelle wrote: Quote: Orthrus: Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further. Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level So I pay for game time to skill up level 5 to get the bonus and then you come along and "nerf it" and take the bonus away. OK Do I get a refund for the time I paid for to skill up this mistake you made in your game? they didn't take any bonus away. You're level 5 skill still gets you to level 5. They reduced the damage amount which is fair considering the ship is oppressively powerful and bad for the game. Cry more about how you trained into an obviously OP FOTM ship knowing full well its going to be nerfed eventually. poor orthrus and gila pilots. what will they do with those useless skills now? they'll have to make do with slightly less OP gila and orthrus or use cerb, ishtar, vexor, navy vexor, caracal, navy osprey etc. it was a heavy blow
Loki Feiht Feiht Family Clan 207	Posted - 2016.01.19 00:48:36 - [687] - Quote Love the way you balance things by just creating new fotm and basically unbalancing the entire line up, Firetail needs more speed (or range), Taranis needs more agility, stabber fleet needs something as i'll be damned if it balances at all with the rest of the faction cruisers More NPC - Randomly Generated Modular Content-áthread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 729	Posted - 2016.01.19 21:37:23 - [688] - Quote Loki Feiht wrote: Love the way you balance things by just creating new fotm and basically unbalancing the entire line up, Firetail needs more speed (or range), Taranis needs more agility, stabber fleet needs something as i'll be damned if it balances at all with the rest of the faction cruisers Why? I can agree somewhat about the SFI, but whats your reasoning? Just saying these things should change but with no reason behind it doesnt help or give people information. For example, the firetail can easily go 5k/s with heat. Enough to slingshot slicers and such. Or it has plenty of range scram kiting with artillery. So from what perspective are you looking through that brings you to believe these ships need buffing? Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

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