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Warp Bubbles = unbalanced benefit to alliances

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Titen	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:37:00 - [1] So.. I'm told everything has a vulnerability, or 'counter' within the EvE universe. I'm told that everything is balanced. If this is true, explain a warp bubble to me. I jump through a gate.. I'm instantly in a warp bubble, and no matter how many warp stab's I've got loaded in the lows, I can't escape. Fastest ship in the universe can't get out of a warp bubble that's camped by dozens of ships before they go pop. Who needs to fit a webber or a scram if there's a bubble to do it for you? Just park at a high volume bottleneck spot and rake in the free stuff. Yeah, I lost a ship due to a bubble. No biggie there. But if CCP want's pilots to explore the universe and stop clogging up Empire.. making it completely possible for a small group of pilots to make it IMPOSSIBLE to go from Empire to 0.0 isn't exactly the best choice. A ship can have 8 warp stabs on and still get stuck. Might as well take warp stabs out of the game since a bubble makes them 100 percent useless. I've already heard the 'if you want to travel into 0.0 then you need to go with a group... then you can fight against the gate campers'. Yeah.. so what? So you manage to kill them ALL. Then what? You go on down the pipe to 0.0 and the camp just rebuilds itself and ganks more solo pilots. I'm not saying a solo pilot should be able to get a free pass to 0.0.. but a warp bubble is giving the campers a free pass and a free kill, with ZERO chance of that solo pilot getting lucky and escaping. My suggestion: warp bubbles only work on ships that are in a gang.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:38:00 - [2] Frigate + MWD. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Farmer Mudd GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:37:00 - [3] It would kind of suck for the gate campers if a hostile gang could avoid their bubble simply by disbanding their gang. Or if they left their scout out of the gang. It's unreasonable for a solo pilot to expect to travel unmolested through 0.0 space. In most situations the solo pilot isn't simply some curious and innocent empire resident out flying around. Why should they get special treatment? Any alliance/corp that lives in 0.0 has busy chat channels dedicated to keeping track of hostile activity in the area. That kind of diligence pays off in reasonably safe passage for members. I'd say if you were going to do anything to help the solo pilot avoid bubble, add a Gate Probe or something that you can send through the gate in front of you. It would be tedious and would alert the campers that someone was on the other side but at least it would be something.
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.12.28 04:12:00 - [4] Get over it. Alliances need to defend their territory somehow.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.28 04:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Titen So.. I'm told everything has a vulnerability, or 'counter' within the EvE universe. I'm told that everything is balanced. If this is true, explain a warp bubble to me. You can counter this by looking at the map. See that big blip showing 50 people in the chokepont system. Now change the filter. Look! 10 pods and 10 ships destroyed in the last hour! Still want to jump in? Intel isn't a mdule you can fit to the ship but it's a valid and possible counter and it's freely available all who choose to use it.
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2006.12.28 10:45:00 - [6] Unfortunately Revelations nerfed the map for intel purposes. For some statistics it doesn't work at all anymore and for others it updates the statistics perhaps only when you log on, if even that.
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2006.12.28 11:03:00 - [7] you're right, bubles are unfair. remove em fromt he game! but alliances need to defend their territorry? give em stargate-forcefields instead that automatically destroys every non-allowed (usually not-blue) ship entering trough that gate. balance it by the need of building a pos orbiting the gate to hold the force field emitter.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2006.12.28 11:33:00 - [8] Bubbles are very balanced. They have a pretty high production cost, and to effectively camp a gate you need about 6 of them. Then you need the fleet to actually camp the gate, a group large enough to defend the bubbles and gang anyone that comes through before they get out of the bubble. Now, sure if one ship jumps into a well defended bubble, they get ganked. (Superior defending force against one attacker should win. Enything else would be unbalanced.) If a fleet of equal size jumps in again the the fortified defender gets the upper hand (as it should be) but the risk in case of a loss in considereble. (Again: Bubbles cost quite a bit and cannot be insured.) All in all balanced. If any one ship could survive jumping into a bubble with ease, now THAT would be unbalanced. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Aceformat RazorBack Inc Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.28 11:52:00 - [9] I've been on both ends of bubble camps and I have to say there is no "real" advantage to a bubble camp at all. Firstly if you're travelling through 0.0 you check your route, find out if any ships have been destroyed ect ect. You also have a scout, anyone can do this for you, heck a 14 day trial account can too, especially with the "Warp to 0" function. In short use the grey matter between your ears. Secondly defending a bubble camp can be at times ... boring, and at other times very very precarious. If you're in that bubble with an agro timer and a hostile fleet comes in ... buh bye ship. Also defending the new large bubbles is at the moment a very hard task to achieve because of the sheer size of them. In short intel and past exposure will save any person from a camp.
Titen	Posted - 2006.12.28 19:04:00 - [10] Ok, so I was wrong about the 'no escape clause' of a bubble. I went into one with a stabbed & nano'd bustard and got pwned and podded before I could click 'run away!' Slow ship I guess. But I still have issues with those warp bubbles being used at choke points on routes to 0.0 It was the first nonsafe system and pretty much anyone travelling through there was gonna land in the bubble. The whole 'protecting alliance territory' makes sense, if the area being bubbled was alliance territory. I wasn't aware that any single alliance 'owned' the front door to 0.0. Guess I was wrong. And, if they were just there to keep out non-alliance folks, why the podkill? I'm rambling.. next time I'll either use a scout, an inty, or just stay in empire. :)

EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2006.12.28 19:51:00 - [11] How about: 1- Check map before jumping into the system. (eg. 10 pods or 20 ships destroyed in the last hour means something) 2- Nothing a t1 frig + ab/mwd + cloak can't fix 3- even better, a covop?
Nathanial Victor	Posted - 2006.12.28 23:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Auron Shadowbane you're right, bubles are unfair. remove em fromt he game! but alliances need to defend their territorry? give em stargate-forcefields instead that automatically destroys every non-allowed (usually not-blue) ship entering trough that gate. balance it by the need of building a pos orbiting the gate to hold the force field emitter. yeah, get rid of bubbles. they are overpowered. the above idea is much more reasonable //sarcasm you can cut w/ a knife
Shmeta Four Rings	Posted - 2007.01.18 20:24:00 - [13] Originally by: Fuujin Get over it. Alliances need to defend their territory somehow. Um... yeah. How far is D2 territory from HED? How about RISE? AAA? Goonfleet? Which one of these alliances (who camp HED regularly) is "defending their territory" at the HED gate? Warp bubbles have a legitimate use in alliance warfare. They're also used to grief folks at major choke points and polish up the old K/D ratio, which has little to nothing to do with legitimate defense of alliance interests or sovereignty. I'm not saying that camping a choke-point far from where you live for fun and ego gratification is a bad thing, necessarily, but lets not pretend that warp bubbles are only used for alliance defense. The real answer to this problem is just to provide more gateways into 0.0. If I've got a half-dozen ways from empire into any bordering region, it's easy enough to just go around camps, or through them, since it would be harder to make the 25 man mega-camps that are there to insure that anything coming through is insta-popped. It's not all that hard to run a 3-4 man camp even with a bubble in a ship that's properly fitted for traveling (as opposed to fighting).
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 22:40:00 - [14] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 18/01/2007 22:38:29 Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 18/01/2007 22:37:35 Originally by: Titen Fastest ship in the universe can't get out of a warp bubble that's camped by dozens of ships before they go pop. Yes, yes they can. Interdictor bubbles have about between 2 and 8km to their edge from where you jump in, large bubbles ~19km. That's 0.5-2 seconds for a terribly slow frigate to leave the interdictor sphere, or 4 seconds for a large bubble. For a half-decent travelfrig, that's 0.25-1 seconds and 2.3 seconds respectively. Quote: Who needs to fit a webber or a scram if there's a bubble to do it for you? Just park at a high volume bottleneck spot and rake in the free stuff. If by free stuff you mean T1 gear and WCS, yes. Everybody that more or less understands aggression also understands that they can reapproach the gate after sitting cloaked for 30 seconds. Short of a massive 30+ man camp, most regular battleships and practically anything travel-fitted can reapproach without worries. (And of course Huginns/Rapiers/Nanophoons, but travelfits can escape that just fine too) Quote: Yeah, I lost a ship due to a bubble. No biggie there. But if CCP want's pilots to explore the universe and stop clogging up Empire.. making it completely possible for a small group of pilots to make it IMPOSSIBLE to go from Empire to 0.0 isn't exactly the best choice. You can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible. Lots of people solo or small gang in hostile space, it's hilariously easy. Going through a heavily populated front door with WCS might just not be the brightest idea ever. They add warp core strength, they're not a PvP switch - and they definitely are not a good survival module by themselves. Quote: A ship can have 8 warp stabs on and still get stuck. Which is why you don't put on 8 WCS. Do you see where this is going? Quote: I'm not saying a solo pilot should be able to get a free pass to 0.0.. but a warp bubble is giving the campers a free pass and a free kill, with ZERO chance of that solo pilot getting lucky and escaping. They have a free pass though. Figure out how, there's been enough handholding going on in this thread and this reply alone.
Kai Jyokoroi The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Shmeta Originally by: Fuujin Get over it. Alliances need to defend their territory somehow. Um... yeah. How far is D2 territory from HED? How about RISE? AAA? Goonfleet? Which one of these alliances (who camp HED regularly) is "defending their territory" at the HED gate? Warp bubbles have a legitimate use in alliance warfare. They're also used to grief folks at major choke points and polish up the old K/D ratio, which has little to nothing to do with legitimate defense of alliance interests or sovereignty. I'm not saying that camping a choke-point far from where you live for fun and ego gratification is a bad thing, necessarily, but lets not pretend that warp bubbles are only used for alliance defense. The real answer to this problem is just to provide more gateways into 0.0. If I've got a half-dozen ways from empire into any bordering region, it's easy enough to just go around camps, or through them, since it would be harder to make the 25 man mega-camps that are there to insure that anything coming through is insta-popped. It's not all that hard to run a 3-4 man camp even with a bubble in a ship that's properly fitted for traveling (as opposed to fighting). Answer - use the grey thing between your ears. If you can't figure out a way into 0.0 then you don't deserve to be there. HED isn't camped more than 50% of the time, not even at peak times of day. _____________ DAMN IT! I got a sig-jack from wystler and then accidentally broke it :(
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.01.18 23:37:00 - [16] There should be no counter to 10 versus 1! You think there should be? ~~~~~~~~~ Caldari. It's so easy a Minmatar could do it.
Shmeta Four Rings	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi Originally by: Shmeta Answer - use the grey thing between your ears. If you can't figure out a way into 0.0 then you don't deserve to be there. HED isn't camped more than 50% of the time, not even at peak times of day. Um... reading comprehension FTW? I didn't say it was too hard to get past HED. I run it several times a week, often right past your gangs. I said that you, and Rise, and D2, and Goons/CA camping it has nothing to do with protecting your territorial interests. I was responding specifically to the guy who said that the reason for these camps was alliance defense. Sheesh.
Romulus Maximus Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.19 01:53:00 - [18] Awww..how cute Bubbles are perfectly balanced. Would u be here if it was a lone dictor who bubbled u ? Space is claimed by x ppl. If ur not x ppl, and not mates with x. There gonna kill u if they get the chance. ALL 0.0 IS KILLING FIELDS. There are no rules. There are no Concord. You want to be as safe as safe can be, sticj to the other gazzilion high sec systems in Eve. If u lack the ability to either a) have a scout to spot these camps. or b) evade a known camp. Then u dont belong in 0.0 If u jumped blindly in that camp,ud have died to a dictor bubble also. God made alts for this very purpose. Its possible for battleships to run bubble camps. I run bubble camps in frigs semi afk. Its really not hard. Make ur plan..execute it. Go back to w/e else u were doing whilst traveling. Im sry u cant roam eve in /god mode. Stab monkeys need something to catch them,so much so, the dictor was introduced, because bubbles werent quite usful enough. No all of a sudden their unbalanced. Current RKK Ranking: (AMM15) Ace - 1000 kills (Fox) targets are lewt, just not yet in can form
Shmeta Four Rings	Posted - 2007.01.19 02:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Titen I went into one with a stabbed & nano'd bustard and got pwned and podded before I could click 'run away!' Slow ship I guess. Heavy transports are painfully slow to align. I fly a occlator at times, which is just as bad. Yeah, if you jump into a mega-camp with a bubble, you're going to die. Use a crane unless you just absolutely have to have that much cargo, and always use a scout if you can. A second account, or just a friend with a noob alt works. Quote: But I still have issues with those warp bubbles being used at choke points on routes to 0.0 Why? The guys sitting on them are just trying to enjoy the game, just like you are. There's nothing wrong with what they're doing, it just conflicts with what you and I are trying to do. If there wasn't that conflict, the game would get boring pretty quick. Quote: It was the first nonsafe system and pretty much anyone travelling through there was gonna land in the bubble. Well, anyone who didn't know to send a scout would, anyway. The campers are pretty predictable too, by the way. Watch the gate that you run regularly and you'll start to see patterns and learn what times of day you're likely to get through, and what times you aren't. Quote: The whole 'protecting alliance territory' makes sense, if the area being bubbled was alliance territory. I wasn't aware that any single alliance 'owned' the front door to 0.0. Guess I was wrong. Yeah, you were wrong. Alliances just camp these gates to have fun and, I think anyway, pad their kill to death ratio. on their kill boards. It doesn't have much to do with defending their space, although bubbles are used for that too. Quote: And, if they were just there to keep out non-alliance folks, why the podkill? A pod kill isn't anything personal. They just do it because they can, and because it might cause you a little more inconvenience than just losing your ship. You have to remember that not everyone has a goal in this game besides making things blow up. Quote: I'm rambling.. next time I'll either use a scout, an inty, or just stay in empire. :) Heh. Well, if you were doing something in a Bustard that you could have done in an inty, shame on you. Use a scout. Stay in empire if you want to, but that's kind of like staying in the newbie zone in most MMOs. Most of the fun is to be had after you leave there.
D'onryu Shoqui Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.19 02:25:00 - [20] Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 19/01/2007 02:21:36 there is actually a counter, loggoski as soon as you realise you jumped into a bubble. it works , its lame

Shmeta Four Rings	Posted - 2007.01.19 02:35:00 - [21] Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 19/01/2007 02:21:36 there is actually a counter, loggoski as soon as you realise you jumped into a bubble. it works , its lame Yeah. There is a secret to never losing a chess match too. Just knock the board over when you realize you can't win. You never lose, but you also lose all respect for the game pretty quick too.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.19 09:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Shmeta They're also used to grief folks at major choke points and polish up the old K/D ratio Awwww, would a hug help? Or maybe a 1 month subscription to wow. Originally by: Titen Fastest ship in the universe can't get out of a warp bubble that's camped by dozens of ships before they go pop. Its easy, you can either count to 30 and mwd back to the gate to jump out, this obviously doesnt work in industrials. Or you can mwd out of the bubble while being aligned to something, again this does not work with industrials. If theres a double webbing huginn with some sensor boosters around you might have some trouble with running out of the bubble ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Shmeta Four Rings	Posted - 2007.01.19 16:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Shmeta They're also used to grief folks at major choke points and polish up the old K/D ratio Awwww, would a hug help? Or maybe a 1 month subscription to wow. Um... yeah. I guess you were too eager to come off all manly like to read the whole thread and see that I have no particular problem at all with gate camping for fun and ego strokage. If you can tell me some reason that D2 camps the HED gate other than causing a little grief and getting some easy kills (not that I think there's anything wrong with that at all) go right ahead. Otherwise, how bout you stop confusing hiding behind BoB with being BoB and toddle off now.
Broka Sampson	Posted - 2007.01.19 16:51:00 - [24] How about only allowing bubbles to be deployed where you have sovereignty or you have declared war against said sovereignty. That would allow alliances to defend their territory and others to attack them as long as they have declared war. /just a suggestion
Shmeta Four Rings	Posted - 2007.01.19 16:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Broka Sampson How about only allowing bubbles to be deployed where you have sovereignty or you have declared war against said sovereignty. That would allow alliances to defend their territory and others to attack them as long as they have declared war. /just a suggestion The problem with that is that sovereignty is a system thing (for now), but alliances assert "sovereignty" over entire regions even though the game mechanics don't support it very well. Doing what you say would require them to actually put a sov claiming POS in every system that they consider "theirs" if they might want to use bubbles there. The whining would be deafening.
Broka Sampson	Posted - 2007.01.19 17:02:00 - [26] Maybe they should change that as well then Shmeta. I mean it makes since to only have bubbles where war is declared or sovereignty is held. Only problem I see with that though is if your a single pirate corporation; kind of takes you out of the loop unless your in an alliance. At least it would encourage low-sec pirate corps to get out where they belong though; in 0.0.
Broka Sampson	Posted - 2007.01.19 17:09:00 - [27] Actually, I got to thinking about that and mabye that whining would not be such a bad thing. Should alliances really be able to claim territory they are not actively using with a POS. Maybe that would encourage more startup alliances to take some open territory? /again just a thought.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.01.19 17:33:00 - [28] as for it being a hassile i don't see what the problem is, just put a deathstar or a moon mining small tower in each system, that all ya need for sov if i am right. Use it to stock pile goods or make the newer corps to a alliance have a pos in a system or two and for them to use it as they please so they can see if they are resoinsible enough in protection as well as use of a system, even if it's not very rare each system can make money, the moon ore from several moons could make timple reactions, those stockpile nicly and will be used alot more often once the invention prosses is more along the way. So now these systems can be testing grounds for new corporations is they sink or swim with what they have, the better they do the more responsibility they can have and maybe a better system. Side note, if you look under player ideas for colonies alliances would fill out their systems alot more often.
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.19 18:45:00 - [29] Here you are not really up against the bubble, you are up against the fleet. The counter to this is your own fleet - or if you're smart, find a way around (stealth, alternate route, distraction) use some initiative. Jump in and shoot the bubble maybe? Smartbomb the dictor sphere and primary the dictor... ______________________________________
Broka Sampson	Posted - 2007.01.19 21:45:00 - [30] R3dSh1ft, yes, you are up against a fleet, but should you really be able to do it in low sec and areas where you are not at war or hold sovereignty. I mean if stipulations like I said above were implemented they would do a lot for pushing the carebears into 0.0. Half the problem with people not wanting to go out is that they can never gete their before they are blown up.



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