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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Burtakus
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
41
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Posted - 2015.12.19 01:44:35 -
[331] - Quote
George Gouillot wrote:[quote=Demerius Xenocratus] Honorabru 1v1's? The more the merrier. I'm sold. Details can be communicated here or via evemail or ingame chat. I'd personally prefer T1/navy frigs, destroyers (T1) or T1 cruisers.
IG mail sent.[/quote
Response provided. Looking forward this no matter the outcome.
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Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
311
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Posted - 2015.12.19 12:52:44 -
[332] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:IB4 those complaining about links today are complaining about blobs tomorrow. By the way, even if this is true, and some people just like to complain a lot, it has nothing to do with off grid links, so it's worthless in the only context that matters. |
Pestilen Ratte
Artimus Ratte
50
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Posted - 2015.12.20 01:03:08 -
[333] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:IB4 those complaining about links today are complaining about blobs tomorrow.
True that.
Even so, don't throw away the good in search of the perfect.
Let's get rid of the OGB plague, and then see about offering small gangs a chance to die in a "fair fight".
Not because I think gate camps and blobs are a bad thing, to be clear. The question is rather whether they have to be the only thing.
Is it possible to innovate (there's a word) new game play that allows small gangs with real world commitment to quickly and easily find roughly balanced small fleet fights?
And can this be done without doing any harm to the vast, rich ecosystem of Eve as it currently stands (blobs and linkers and gate camps)?
Maybe it can't be done, but imagine if it could!
Wouldn't it be great?
All that extra small gang pew!
As well as gate camps, N+1 blobs and linked gimp freaks.
It would be great. Everyone would be happy.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
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Posted - 2015.12.20 03:22:16 -
[334] - Quote
There are already mechanics out there if you want fair fights its called a duel.
Ive never expected or felt entitled to a fair fight, in fact i would suggest that the whole point of eve is to engineer a situation where fights are as unfair as possible under the assumption that the opposition will do the same thing. Thats what makes EVE pvp interesting. Not vanilla, rinse / repeat kestrel vs punisher brawls.
Now i understand your thinking that fair fights = most desirable outcome. I would just suggest to you and most other people out there, they are not really the fights you remember. You remember the ones where you engaged hostiles that thought they had it in the bag but pull something extra out to clinch it.
The stories that project to the wider gaming world are not perfectly balanced 1v1s either. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
778
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Posted - 2015.12.20 07:07:48 -
[335] - Quote
Once again, the disparity in risk/reward between OGB and every other form of advantage has been covered. Blobs require friends...it's an MMO. Falcons/logi/etc. have to be risked on grid and provide a far more narrow advantage than OGB.
None of the aforementioned red herrings is anywhere near as oppressive as the semi-AFK booster pet.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
778
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Posted - 2015.12.20 07:09:33 -
[336] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:There are already mechanics out there if you want fair fights its called a duel.
Ive never expected or felt entitled to a fair fight, in fact i would suggest that the whole point of eve is to engineer a situation where fights are as unfair as possible under the assumption that the opposition will do the same thing. Thats what makes EVE pvp interesting. Not vanilla, rinse / repeat kestrel vs punisher brawls.
Now i understand your thinking that fair fights = most desirable outcome. I would just suggest to you and most other people out there, they are not really the fights you remember. You remember the ones where you engaged hostiles that thought they had it in the bag but pull something extra out to clinch it.
The stories that project to the wider gaming world are not perfectly balanced 1v1s either.
Fair/unfair should be a function of in-game rather than out of game investment.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
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Posted - 2015.12.20 10:50:27 -
[337] - Quote
Another p2w aegument. As i have said, from every functional level you cannot distinguish between my booster as either an alt or another person beyond a presumption. Your obsession with the people behind the screen is not healthy. Focus on the pixels.
Multip[le accounts are accepted in eve anyway. Less of the p2w lol. Ive just created 4 alts to watch choke points. These chars will never train a single SP but will save me a lot of trouble and time which even a booster could not do as well.
Non of them will cost my any out of game money. |
peinrikoudu
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.12.20 14:04:45 -
[338] - Quote
I'm almost always out solo looking for an honest fight and most of the time I die. I accept this because I'm clumsy. One thing I hate, for example, is being pointed @70km by an orthrus because I was expecting a 40km point. You can imagine I died a crappy death without throwing a punch back. Sometimes it's a massive advantage and I'm with the op questioning ccp's motives. You just need to expect players to have links and you're gonna die. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
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Posted - 2015.12.20 15:43:33 -
[339] - Quote
Sees Orthrus. Doesnt expect links. Blames other people. Classic. |
Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
311
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Posted - 2015.12.20 16:09:23 -
[340] - Quote
Crosi, the fact that it is impossible to know if your booster is an alt or a real player is a part of the problem.
If links were on grid, it would be possible to know if someone's booster is AFK or if it is being actively piloted.
I've already clearly demonstrated that off grid links are effectively AFK and you have no argument against this.
If they aren't AFK, then you can actively field them on grid and put them at real risk, the same way people do with their falcon / logistic alts / friends. |
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Arla Sarain
720
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Posted - 2015.12.20 16:28:24 -
[341] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: As i have said, from every functional level you cannot distinguish between my booster as either an alt or another person beyond a presumption. Except there is no real person behind it, and it doesn't take presumption to come to that conclusion.
The entire argument that this is an MMO and you should find a booster pet, must be supported by demonstrable and practicable supply of players who are willing to play a particular role, before it can be thrown around. Otherwise it's a moot point. This is an MMO, but nobody or few people are willing to engage in one facet of it as an MMO? Reeks of bad design.
There are between a small to a few amount of players who would ever consider sitting semi-afk and boost for another person, investing their real time into this nonsense. Hence nobody needs to science it out why you don't have buddy sitting in a safe spot flying an OGB. |
Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
311
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Posted - 2015.12.20 16:36:36 -
[342] - Quote
Demerius, unfortunately pay-to-win is not a credible argument against off grid links, because the entire game is effectively pay-to-win regardless of off grid links. I agree with most of what you say, Demerius, but we must look at these issues as objectively as possible.
The only legitimate argument against off grid links, as far as I can tell, is the fact that they are one of the most overpowered and broken game mechanics that exists right now, regardless of pay-to-win.
Being off grid is such a huge advantage because not only does it allow them to effectively operate while AFK (try doing that on grid), but they're also impossible to probe unless with a maxed probing character with virtue implants. They're also interdiction nullified, and equipped with a cloaking device.
Rapid Deployment is equal to full HG Snakes, Evasive Maneuvers is more powerful than full HG Halos, Interdiction Maneuvers effectively turns T2 points and webs into heated faction versions.
The Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense alone gives you the benefits of a officer resist plating. Combine that with the other two armored warfare links. Jeezy creezy. All that while effectively operating as an AFK alt, off grid, nearly unprobable, cloaked and immune to warp bubbles. It's crazy overpowered. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 16:38:44 -
[343] - Quote
Demerius, you didnt prove they are AFK lol.
You are using a term that does not apply by definition and even in your argument you said OGB need constant attention.
Lots of people dont manually pilot. Fleets often have anchors and are literally locking from broadcasts and hitting F1. Thats probably less involved than someone controlling a booster alt lol.
The problem is, you are just making up, changing out and cherry picking your subjective complaints to try and box boosting chars into some negative position as though your complaints only apply to them but not to other things in the game that work in similar or the same ways.
If you have the impression boosting alts are untouchable off grid, then you have already lost. If something bothers me so much in eve i try to do something about it. Thats kinda what the sandbox is about. It will be a sad day when space is not littered with nice easy t3 kills in safe spots. Specially now with aoemjd making parking on gates and stations practically impossible.
I was advocating for agro timers to force OGB into safe spots, but CDs have done the same thing with the added benefit of being a player driven mechanic. So props to CCP. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 16:44:23 -
[344] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: As i have said, from every functional level you cannot distinguish between my booster as either an alt or another person beyond a presumption. Except there is no real person behind it, and it doesn't take presumption to come to that conclusion. The entire argument that this is an MMO and you should find a booster pet, must be supported by demonstrable and practicable supply of players who are willing to play a particular role, before it can be thrown around. Otherwise it's a moot point. This is an MMO, but nobody or few people are willing to engage in one facet of it as an MMO? Reeks of bad design. There are between a small to a few amount of players who would ever consider sitting semi-afk and boost for another person, investing their real time into this nonsense. Hence nobody needs to science it out why you don't have buddy sitting in a safe spot flying an OGB.
What a load of tripe. |
Arla Sarain
720
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 16:50:14 -
[345] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: What a load of tripe, you cant speak for everyone else in the game. And drawing a conclusion based on an ignorant assumption about other people is really really bad. I find it hard to imagine that people mine, but lots do it.
I can't imagine people like combat scanning either, I do know that somebody does it.
But where are the legions of combat scanner mains to populate each gang/fleet on a regular basis...?
Non existent.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
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Posted - 2015.12.20 16:54:42 -
[346] - Quote
Perhaps in the fleets you fly in. Most fleets ive been in over the last few months have had a dedicated prober. Back int he day flying in BOHICA fleets they had a virtuoso prober that eliminated links at an alarming rate. Even friendly ones.
Also, since alts are ubiquitous, i still dont see any real reason for you to judge mains good and alts bad. Thats like those whiny people in FPS games complaining about noob tubes. You get to make your own choices, but in a sand box you dont get to make other peoples. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
592
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Posted - 2015.12.20 16:54:46 -
[347] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: What a load of tripe, you cant speak for everyone else in the game. And drawing a conclusion based on an ignorant assumption about other people is really really bad. I find it hard to imagine that people mine, but lots do it.
I can't imagine people like combat scanning either, I do know that somebody does it. But where are the legions of combat scanner mains to populate each gang/fleet on a regular basis...? Non existent.
WHs
Black Fox Marauders is Recruiting
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Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
311
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 17:09:38 -
[348] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Its definitely powerful. My argument would be that its easily counterable given equal but asymmetrical preparation. People around here seem to be such quitters. OGB are defenseless and almost always not stabbed. They are easily harassed and prevented from functioning. Sure, you might need some real SP in probing to actually get a kill, but understand that most boosting chars have far more SP dedicated to leadership than you will need in scanning. That and you only have to succeed once in probing to get a kill, the OGB has to evade every single time in order to not die.
It's more powerful than any other type of combat alt, not just in terms of the benefits that the boosts give, but in terms of other combat alts having to be fielded on grid whereas OGB are fielded off grid, and there is nothing easy about being a maxed prober with virtue implants. Even if you have such a character, the OGB will simply warp or cloak when he sees the probes; overpowered.
You can insist that they aren't AFK, but then I will ask you the question you have ignored this entire time: if off grid booster alts are not effectively AFK then what is the problem with fielding them on grid?
You have ignored this question multiple times, and the only answer I've gotten from other people (and the only logical answer) is that it's too risky. This is clearly an unreasonable line of thinking and demonstrates a risk averse type of gameplay that also happens to be one of the most overpowered game mechanics there are right now. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 17:19:19 -
[349] - Quote
Yes, boosting alts are more powerful than any other type of boosting alts... Its not as good at hauling things as my freighter alt, and not as efficient at lighting cynos as my cyno alts or as practical at keeping eyes as my eyes chars in particular places are.
Are you seriously asking why a tankless tengu with no guns is not practical on grid in a frig meta? Even commandships are not suitable on grid in many skirmish fleets due to their limited speed and agility.
And i have said this a number of times before.
I have known a good number of people who tripple and quad box chars on grid. Being on grid or not is not the correct standard of judging what is AFK or not.
I cant believe im saying this but if you are at your keyboard, you are not afk. If you have a complaint about how much input any particular role requires then thats fine. But just putting links on grid will require a massive and as yet unannounced reword of all the ships and mods.
But even that will not escape the fact, larger fleets will be able to field links and smaller fleets will lose them and as such potentially not field them at all. Which will have a knock on effect on what they feel they can sanely engage.
This is why (for the dozenth time) removing boosts entirely is a better solution to putting them on grid. Though i dont really see any problem with boosts as they are, but i do see a problem with the unwillingness of a lot of players here to solve their own issues.
Also, you logged on today and killed 2 cyno alts and then got blobbed by a mixed fleet. You died because you made terrible choices, not because of OGB. |
Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
311
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 18:16:59 -
[350] - Quote
I edited my post to specify combat alt, because I knew you would try and bring up other types of alts if I did not specify that. Off grid booster alts are overpowered compared to other combat alts like logistics and falcons.
You fail to consider that on grid links would necessarily be fitted differently than off grid links and would not necessarily be tankless or helpless. And again if it is too risky, then don't multi box in the first place, use the links for what they are originally meant for; fleets.
I can't argue with the meaning of AFK, so I will press no further on that front, but again your only reasoning for not fielding links on grid is that it is too risky and you would lose it easily, which clearly demonstrates that off grid links are a far safer and more risk averse choice, and that they aren't really at any risk because they only have to watch out for one thing, probes, and they can warp or cloak the second they spot those.
The fact that people will lose their boosting ships by fielding them on grid is not a good reason to keep them off grid. That's like saying logistics ships should operate from off grid so we don't have to lose them when we bring them on field. It makes no sense other than for risk aversion.
Off grid links have been responsible for some of my deaths but I'm not complaining about those and I didn't say that I died yesterday because of links. The fact that you have to bring up my loss yesterday is needlessly hurtful and has nothing to do with the discussion.
Anyway, since you brought it up, it was really because of Huginn. It was a really fun fight and lasted a good 15 minutes, and I came so close to getting multiple kills, even had one of them at like 5% structure, it was crazy close, but ultimately I lost sense of situational awareness and got webbed by Huginn.
Sure you can say I made terrible choices, but I play this game for fun and to do crazy things and not be risk averse. I just re-subbed anyway, and I'm going to come back and do better next time. It has nothing to do with off grid links or this thread, but thanks for bringing it up. |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
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Posted - 2015.12.20 18:27:42 -
[351] - Quote
I think its a bit of a stretch and kinda dishonest to say that boosting alts are more powerful that logistics alts as a blanket statement. I would assert that logistics and ewar have won more fights than boosters ever have. Boosters effect in most fights has been simply to prolong fights since both fleets have had several options of how to field their links either on or off grid.
On grid t3's would still forfeit their defensive subsystem for their command and as such will always be very weak regardless of other fittings. |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
358
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 19:12:58 -
[352] - Quote
combat pilot + links > combat pilot
But also......
mining pilot + mining pilot > mining pilot
mission pilot + mission pilot > mission pilot
market hub alt + market hub alt > market hub alt
combat pilot + ecm pilot > combat pilot
combat pilot + logi pilot > logi pilot
It goes on forever. I'm pretty sure I never saw an ad for eve online that stated anything like "one account is all you'll ever want/need"
But I guess links were the singular reason for the downfall of solo pvp and he'll not hear anything to the contrary.
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Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
311
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Posted - 2015.12.20 20:40:02 -
[353] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:I think its a bit of a stretch and kinda dishonest to say that boosting alts are more powerful that logistics alts as a blanket statement. I would assert that logistics and ewar have won more fights than boosters ever have. Boosters effect in most fights has been simply to prolong fights since both fleets have had several options of how to field their links either on or off grid. You're right, it is a stretch to say that boosting alts are more powerful than logistics alts, as a blanket statement. With that I agree with.
But when you also consider the fact that links are not only as powerful as they are, but also operate off grid, and having all of their other inherent advantages like being one of the most difficult type of ships to probe, interdiction nullified, and with cloaking device, how can you honestly make the argument that they are not currently overpowered?
Do all of these other inherent advantages balance links versus other types of fleet support? Are links, and link ships, so inferior to other forms of fleet support like logistics and electronic warfare, that they really need to have all of these extra advantages? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 21:00:18 -
[354] - Quote
I dont think one class of ship has to be balanced with another class of ship. After all, different classes excel at different things. A logistics alt is far better at RR than a boosting tengu.
You can invent a classification of 'fleet support' and expect balance across your arbitrary class. But its still an arbitrary class that you just invented. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
778
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 21:38:32 -
[355] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:combat pilot + links > combat pilot
But also......
mining pilot + mining pilot > mining pilot
mission pilot + mission pilot > mission pilot
market hub alt + market hub alt > market hub alt
combat pilot + ecm pilot > combat pilot
combat pilot + logi pilot > logi pilot
It goes on forever. I'm pretty sure I never saw an ad for eve online that stated anything like "one account is all you'll ever want/need"
But I guess links were the singular reason for the downfall of solo pvp and he'll not hear anything to the contrary.
edit
This is eve online, the game where players do anything to win. Underhanded tactics have been celebrated for as long as I've played the game.
If not links, it'll be logi alts or ecm alts or whatever else creative players come up with. A lot of people do stuff like that, and the logi alts even make kills look like they were solo. Is it dirty? Yeah. Is it unfair? Yes.
Even if ccp put in some ******* karma score to reward players for being honest, it would be the mission of the majority of players to accrue as negative a karma score as possible because that's just our nature.
The loss of offgrid links would just cause people to adapt. Then people would ***** about whatever "underhanded" thing replaced them. CCPLZ no more than one logistics ship allowed on any given grid. CCPLZ delete all ecm drones/ships. CCPLZ give me a box in options menu so that only one other ship can ever be on grid with me.
Combat pilot + links > 5, 10 or more unlinked combat pilots is actually the problem. They'll never catch him...best case scenario is forcing him off temporarily with ewar and long range weapons.
Other combat alts provide far less of an advantage in terms of leveling the playing field against higher numbers, while entailing greater risk
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Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
311
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 22:16:34 -
[356] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:I dont think one class of ship has to be balanced with another class of ship. After all, different classes excel at different things. A logistics alt is far better at RR than a boosting tengu.
You can invent a classification of 'fleet support' and expect balance across your arbitrary class. But its still an arbitrary class that you just invented.
Also, a lot of OGB sacrifice sensor strength for 5/6 links. But many would not know since they lack the constitution to try and just run to the forum to make false claims about p2w / afk / godmode and how hard they are to probe. Actually, all classes of ship must be balanced together, that's why it's called game balance.
You're right about the "classification of fleet support", but in that light, all ships must still be balanced compared to the other ships in the game, regardless of ship class.
You make it sound like sacrificing a bit of sensor strength is a big deal. It's still easy as pie to make a 5 link T3 with room for ECCM, plus you can use some relatively cheap implants to get a smaller signature.
You can easily just warp it or cloak it when you see probes. The fact that it's extremely difficult to probe already, coupled with the fact that you will just warp whenever you see probes, makes you so difficult to catch you pretty much have no choice but to call it overpowered just based on those facts alone. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1634
|
Posted - 2015.12.20 22:19:08 -
[357] - Quote
If they are forcing him off with ewar, why is it temporary? I guess that just makes your argument sound better even if it doesnt make sense?
Ive flown griffin in a few fights against snuff box. Sure boosts helped. But the fact that i was permajamming their 2 lokis meant that their substantial mach fleet was applying very little of its DPS. This, along with spreading jams from other griffins across machs IMO made more difference than the boosts being off grid. |
peinrikoudu
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 12:08:55 -
[358] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Sees Orthrus. Doesnt expect links. Blames other people. Classic.
Blames other people? I think you come on here and have too many arguments. Get a life.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
946
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Posted - 2015.12.21 15:18:31 -
[359] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:I dont think one class of ship has to be balanced with another class of ship. After all, different classes excel at different things. A logistics alt is far better at RR than a boosting tengu.
You can invent a classification of 'fleet support' and expect balance across your arbitrary class. But its still an arbitrary class that you just invented.
Also, a lot of OGB sacrifice sensor strength for 5/6 links. But many would not know since they lack the constitution to try and just run to the forum to make false claims about p2w / afk / godmode and how hard they are to probe. Actually, all classes of ship must be balanced together, that's why it's called game balance. You're right about the "classification of fleet support", but in that light, all ships must still be balanced compared to the other ships in the game, regardless of ship class. You make it sound like sacrificing a bit of sensor strength is a big deal. It's still easy as pie to make a 5 link T3 with room for ECCM, plus you can use some relatively cheap implants to get a smaller signature. You can easily just warp it or cloak it when you see probes. The fact that it's extremely difficult to probe already, coupled with the fact that you will just warp whenever you see probes, makes you so difficult to catch you pretty much have no choice but to call it overpowered just based on those facts alone.
Warping or cloaking the command ship negates the link bonuses as they can not operate in either situation. So just by "scaring" the OGB, you have effectively negated the person's advantage. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
127
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 19:43:37 -
[360] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:
Hiding ones true strength is a critical tactic in any form of combat. What you are decrying as unfair because you have uncertainty about opponent strength is no different than any of the following: Cyno ships bringing in the fleet Un cloaking e-war Keeping a combat Recon in a plex Bait tanking the tackle and the pounding the **** out of someone with a fleet jumping in from next door Faction mods Implants Drugs
Any ad all of those hide true strength. Should we then do away with them as well?
My opinion on various things has changed throughout the course of this thread. The result of good argument. I think we need to be fair to recognize the differences in the bonus each of these apply though and how effective they are -- or how many one can affect -- when brought on field.
Cyno pops, everyone can see it and warp to it. Even if it's limited, you have time to react to it.
Uncloaked e-war. Only in wormholes can they take you by surprise, but in known space you can only laugh it off. You have local and the information of how many pilots are in system. If one is missing and 'suddenly spaceships'! you can walk it off without too much hurt, telling yourself, Well that's where it was.
Recon in a plex. Same argument as above. You want to avoid this, open virgin plexes. These can surprise anyone by not coming up on dscan anymore anyway. Be vigilant.
Obvious bait tanking is often done with obvious ships that have high natural resists. If someone can pull it off with an unconventional fit, good on them. Trap well done. Local is again instrumental in knowing when something is usually a bait tackler. Timing is everything.
Faction mods drop. Pays for the trouble and the difficulty of the fight if you win and the loot fairy is kind. Mods are expensive. Only one ship can have any respective mod on.
Implants can be destroyed. Bring a smart bombing cruiser or high sensor tackle ready for when the enemy ejects or blows up. Can also only be used by a single ship. Implants are expensive.
Drugs have drawbacks. One or many or all of five side-effects completely lopsided the benefits. They are limited in their time for application and could become expensive when used frequently. And you must be one lucky bastard if you do not get hit with ANY side-effects on anything standard and above. The risk is leveled out. Single use, single pilot.
Links:
Equally affect 1 pilot to an entire wing of pilots at no addition cost no side-effect a safe distance a reusable and infinite amount of times until you make a mistake
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
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