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Players make too much ISK!

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Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:35:00 - [31] Originally by: nickky01 great, turn all the pvp'ers into carebears some of us dont like to run missions all day, or sit in a system warping to each belt to make our money...hell you still lose 20-30 mil everytime your BS pops anyways I don't think anyone was suggesting that you should be forced to grind more. It's because T2 fitted BS are the norm in PvP now when they should be more the exception. If money was harder to make you wouldn't have to grind more (possibly even less than currently) because cheaper stuff would be more viable (the only reason you have to fly expensive stuff now is because everybody else flies expensive stuff). Originally by: Apocryphai Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... QFT. QFE. QFSTFUNOOBs ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:36:00 - [32] Great idea. Not everyone has no life. Normal eVe players have jobs, pay subscriptions, real lifes and an play eVe casually. Make it harder to make ISKs and newb, casual and normal players will leave eVe. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Joran Koba	Posted - 2007.01.06 00:17:00 - [33] Originally by: subvert Edited by: subvert on 05/01/2007 22:30:31 Quote: Quote: Originally by: Ather Ialeas Such is life. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system No, such is life. We're the hungry Africans of EVE. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system QFT
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2007.01.06 01:07:00 - [34] The more money you have, the more money you have. You need money to make money So after the changes, those already has money will still get more money those who dosn't have money will take much longer to get more money I dont mind
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.06 01:16:00 - [35] In support of this thread I just sent 3 billion isk to a disposable alt and sent him to biomass. Now if we can gather together and follow my example, we can bring up the relative value of the isk to be inline with the us $ so 1isk = $1. Once this has occurred we can all farm for a day and have a glorious ebay fest and become millionairres - quick like before the market is flooded. Whoa there... looks like i just stumbled across the formula for utopia. I'll be doing autographs later. If anyone thinks my idea doesn't work, it's because you don't understand. Now, lets all go and be millionairres,
Detech Gallente Abyss Restless	Posted - 2007.01.06 01:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Curzon Dax 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. Agreed. Why a certain mythical insurance company should pay wars of another's corporations on all galaxy? Wish to wage war - prepare for that your economy will suffer...
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.06 01:49:00 - [37] I wish idiots would stop trying to discuss the EVE economy. Here's a hint: ratting is actually fairly non-inflationary because the increased amount of ISK coming in is balanced by the creation of loot modules i.e. minerals, which means the proportional value of ISK compared to the value of minerals is preserved more or less.
Gut Punch Gallente The Revenant	Posted - 2007.01.06 02:56:00 - [38] Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: nickky01 great, turn all the pvp'ers into carebears some of us dont like to run missions all day, or sit in a system warping to each belt to make our money...hell you still lose 20-30 mil everytime your BS pops anyways I don't think anyone was suggesting that you should be forced to grind more. It's because T2 fitted BS are the norm in PvP now when they should be more the exception. If money was harder to make you wouldn't have to grind more (possibly even less than currently) because cheaper stuff would be more viable (the only reason you have to fly expensive stuff now is because everybody else flies expensive stuff). You assume that people who already have a stash of money will lower their prices. Besides, if money was harder to make, wouldn't that make it even more valuable? And who said T2 should be the exception? You? Who are you to say what I can fly? If I have the funds and am willing to risk the investment, then I want my additional edge. If you don't think that T2 should be the norm (which I'm not sure is truely the case now), go ahead and start. Take yours off your ship, sell them and then come back and tell us again. --- Gut Punch The Revenant --- Playing as Caldari is EVE on Easy Mode...
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.01.06 07:11:00 - [39] Originally by: Curzon Dax Players have too much ISK. The OP should explain how did he got to this conclusion. What is "too much ISK" for him? Could he at least give a concrete number that we could comment/discuss about?
Curzon Dax Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.06 07:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/01/2007 19:35:03 P.S. A note to all responders to this thread: the OP is not serious about the blanket 15% tax idea, rather he is trying to provide yet another counterpoint to the other thread on the topic (the one about taxing NPC corporations), where he lost an argument. DS, ignoring an argument because you're at a loss of a reasonable response doesn't constitute winning an argument. Yes, PvP is an ISK-sink, but not nearly the sink it should be, primarily because of insurance. If an insurance company finds out that you're primarily using your car for drive-by shootings, Burnout3 style road rage, and Jackass stunts, do you think they would be so eager to insure your car? Insurance in game should be a bit more realistic. =) And the bit about the blanket 15% tax was a jibe at the multitudes who seem to think that folks in NPC corps should have 15% of their ISK disappear into the void of space for no reason other than tax-envy, despite the fact that the lack of taxes plays itself out in the lack of corp support and infrastructure. I don't mind 15% of my ratting income disappearing for no return as long as 15% of yours does too. :)
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.01.06 07:49:00 - [41] Curzon, Insurance payout is not even a third of what I loose when a ship blows up. In fact, I don't even insure my ships anymore.
ollobrains Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.06 10:40:00 - [42] its assets not ISK that are the real inflation risk All posts made by myself represent my personal opinion only - they do not represent the rest of the privateer alliacne unless they decide to agree with what im saying
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:07:00 - [43] Originally by: Gut Punch You assume that people who already have a stash of money will lower their prices. Besides, if money was harder to make, wouldn't that make it even more valuable? I guess the only answer is to nerf peoples wallets before you did this then. Say 90% cut? Sounds good to me. Originally by: Gut Punch And who said T2 should be the exception? You? Who are you to say what I can fly? CCP when they made T2 harder to make and fly than T1. The problem is in EVE there are things that can never be lost - BPOs, skills, etc - which means things that are balanced to be harder to get and maintain will eventually become as common as you say. That's counterproductive. As someone in another thread posted 'It's not the having, it's the getting.' T2 isn't really any more 'fun' to fly than other ship classes. It just allows you, if you want to put the time and risk in, to truly specialize in something. a. If everybody can afford something then there is no risk. b. If you're 3 years old and have 50mil SP what else are you going to train? The time spent specializing isn't such a big deal anymore. It devalues what T2 is supposed to be and inevitably leads the game down the typical road of inevitable stagnation that games like WoW suffer from, because CCP would have to keep adding new 'toys' to keep you amused, which would only remain amusing for however long it took you to 'collect' and 'try' them all. If T2 was always more expensive to lose than anyone could comfortably afford then it would never need to be replaced by a new 'toy' because it would always be something special to be withheld for the right occasion. Originally by: Gut Punch If I have the funds and am willing to risk the investment, then I want my additional edge. Very true. And my argument is that people earn too much, so there is no 'risk' to your investment. Originally by: Gut Punch If you don't think that T2 should be the norm (which I'm not sure is truely the case now), go ahead and start. Take yours off your ship, sell them and then come back and tell us again. Logical fallacies in arguments 4tl. ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Gudrun Hart	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:25:00 - [44] Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: nickky01 It's because T2 fitted BS are the norm in PvP now when they should be more the exception. If money was harder to make you wouldn't have to grind more (possibly even less than currently) because cheaper stuff would be more viable (the only reason you have to fly expensive stuff now is because everybody else flies expensive stuff). LOL, does this make a difference? Would you not whine when only some very, very rich player could buy and fly T2 ships? We have already the forums full of whiners that T2 equipment is to expensive (me too ;-) ). And you fly the expensive stuff because you have the skills and the ISK and want the best equipment. It makes a difference when your T2 Assault ship meets a T1 Counterpart.
Gudrun Hart	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:37:00 - [45] Originally by: Nero Scuro Very true. And my argument is that people earn too much, so there is no 'risk' to your investment. Maybe some Player earn too much. But if we all risk your full wallet at once, then low sec would be empty. I have no problem with players who owns billions of ISK, why should i? A lot of stuff is getting cheaper in EvE and some are getting more and more expensive. Then CCP makes some updates and all is changing again. PvP lives from easy makeing ISK. Loose 100 Mio Ship and equipment, and after 1-3 days you back in PvP business. Ok, we could remove all T2, loose 10 Mio ship and after 1-3 days your back in PvP busines, but does that makes a difference and what will the older players train then? You need a motivation for them too.
LaCoHa The Carebear Stare Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:37:00 - [46] Originally by: Curzon Dax 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Please dont even say that.. after spending a billion isk for the skills just to be able to get into a almost 2 billion isk ship - I would say that raising those skill book costs anymore is just ridiculous. sorry. LaCoHa
MMXMMX Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:47:00 - [47] Edited by: MMXMMX on 06/01/2007 11:44:21 Originally by: Curzon Dax There's been an inane amount of whining recently about NPC corps not getting taxed. While I am personally in favor of CCP giving into their whining, making 15% of NPC corp earning disappear into the void of space....and similiarly applying such a tax to all player corps, so that 15% of all their money disappears, I think that there's a more deep-seated issue. Players have too much ISK. Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. Such is life. However, the enormous amounts of ISK pouring into the game every single day makes the global trend of expenses infinitely climb. Please: 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. 2. Implement that 15% tax rate on NPC corps, as well as a factional 15% tax rate on all player corps. You've got to pay the man to keep a corporation. We need ISK sinks! 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Happy trails! U ar Nuts Or maiby u ar dreaming :) I dont know
Klavayne Pack Of Shadows	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:57:00 - [48] Originally by: Curzon Dax If an insurance company finds out that you're primarily using your car for drive-by shootings, Burnout3 style road rage, and Jackass stunts, do you think they would be so eager to insure your car? Use a good example. Cars are not supposed to be used for that, hence a company wouldnt insure such activities. But combat ships are meant to be used to blow stuff up (the hints in the name) therefore they are being used as they are intended and wouldnt exactly violate insurance policies. Back to the original post. In that sense, EVE is exactly like the real world. 95% of the world's wealth is held by 5% of the population. I don't see you trying to change that. There are always going to be winners and losers, thats life (real or not).
Jhonen Senraedi Minmatar Decimus Corp Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:10:00 - [49] Of course..if NPC corps were taxed...then maybe more people would move into proper corps rather than hide in them and avoid wardecs etc? As for ship insurance..well..realistically no-one performing a crime(i.e. suicide ganking) should be reimbursed for a ship lost whilst perpetrating it. As for ships in war zones etc. well..costs may be higher but insurers in the real world would still provide some insurance even if at exorbitant rate.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Isyel I have too much isk? Thank you for telling that to my allmighty wallet of compulsive emptiness. If you really think everyone's having such an easy time getting isk you're delusional. I do indeed propose to lower gains tho, but mainly for those stupid lvl 4 missions in empire where with no risk you get rewards at least 3 times better than in certain 0.0 places (like Providence. Do you have any idea how much it sucks? ). Fix missions first, halved or even less bounties would make it even worse a grind than it is now to get money for us people who refuse to spend weeks and weeks GRINDING money to be able to pvp. Thought the point of eve was that you had choice not to grind? Well, it's hard for certain people as it is, and i don't want to play eve like it's some korean mmo. Of course that wouldn't affect the BPO owners at all and the mission *****s only minorly. Way to promote PvP. Please could you explaind 2 things: "those stupid lvl 4 missions in empire where with no risk you get rewards at least 3 times better than in certain 0.0 places". Where I can find them? or are you referring at the situation of 2 years ago, before 2 halving of the isk rewards, and the mega nerfing of the drop tables? "(like Providence. Do you have any idea how much it sucks? )." No, I have no idea, care to give and approximate value for the isk/hour gained, with and without loot? Really I am curious to know, as I see a good number of peole lamenting the low income in 0.0/low sec, but never some number. The only number I have seen are for 0.0 mining in the miners guide. Best isk gain for mining in hig sec. about 10 millions/our, in 0.0 more than 100 millions. RSVP
Ghoest	Posted - 2007.01.06 15:26:00 - [51] Edited by: Ghoest on 06/01/2007 15:26:23 The OP is a clueless twit. he doesnt exlain why more money coming in is bad. And he explains even less how his ideas will improve game play for the majority of players. Why? Because he has no idea himself. The truth is inflation/tech improvement(they are tied together but thats thread it self) is the only thing protecting new and poor players from the market power of the rich. Wherever you went - here you are.
000Hunter000 Gallente The Lookers	Posted - 2007.01.06 15:52:00 - [52] Hey why not start close to home? Just send e all your isk ingame and the eve world will be a better place Resized tag... again... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp... again :p
Rollio Polleaous 20th Legion	Posted - 2007.01.06 18:06:00 - [53] Didn't we have this discussion allready? Anyway I thought I'd toss an idea in, Insurance payouts in assets instead of isk, minerals sufficent to build a new ship or the ship itself? That way insurance doesn't magic money into existance. Who gave pend an isk printing permit anyway? The point about the isk made from ratting being in balance with the assets also spawned from ratting is worth repeating and maybe closer examination as it would be interesting to see how clever they were balancing that, I'd quote but I can't find it again. The various PvP = isk sink remarks are somewhat puzzeling, POS warefare is a large isk sink as when you blow up one of those you're literally blowing up ISK so yeah I'll concede that, Unless you're buying your ships of the npc's losing a ship isn't an isk sink, even with no insurance. Perhaps if you were made to carry isk around with you and it blew up. Has anybody listed the Isk sources and sinks in one of the past threads? So we have; Ratting, npc trading, mission rewards(ISK), Insurance. At the other end, Items bought from the NPCs: Skills, blueprints, rental, pos fuel and equipment, Insurance contracts which run out. So thats your isk flow, now the income excedes the outgoing, that's blanced opposite the material growth in the marketl; mined minerals, agent reward(materials),npc loot. I think the point in the op is that this is out of whack, the argument agasint beign that it can't be unbalanced as if there were too much isk then isk simply devalues to match so that isk = materials is always true. So if the finer things in eve are becoming more common then surely it's not becasue there's too much isk? Supply is at a point where if you want something you can have it. An isk imbalance, more perishable items bought from npc's or altering the isk:material ratio for agent rewards and rat hunting?
Fayn Trak	Posted - 2007.01.06 18:13:00 - [54] Npc trading may well be a larger source of isk than people imagine, as with all trade it takes isk to make isk but if it happens that the bulk of npc trading is done by the 20% who controll the 80% of wealth then you've got a lot of isk moving around growing. Though I'm inclined to think that most of the wealthy people in the game are the middle men somewhere in between the isk coming in and it leaving, Industrialists, resale agents and suchlike.
Wulinshu	Posted - 2007.01.06 18:39:00 - [55] Originally by: "rollio" altering the isk:material ratio for agent rewards and/or rat hunting? Rogue drones... How very constructive of me.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.06 20:08:00 - [56] NPC trading as an isk source? Beside the selling of tags and overseer belonging, I don't remember the NPC buying anithing (they have stopped buying mineral a while ago). I suspect that CCP think the isk faucet is too low, as the non-monetary bonus in missions have all been substituited by monetary ones.
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.01.06 20:38:00 - [57] Remove insurance imo.
KHEN Gallente New Horizons	Posted - 2007.01.07 02:50:00 - [58] I don't insure ships because the 3 months insurance for all the ships we use in corp (mostly Battleships and T2 cruisers) is more expansive than our losses during this period. => insurance is not an isk sink.
smashsmash	Posted - 2007.01.07 03:02:00 - [59] hi, john forbes nash here. i'd like everyone to know i've thought about the eve economy for about five minutes and all seems well. you all can stop worrying now. ---- Would you like some cries with your whaaamburger?
Rudolf Miller	Posted - 2007.01.07 03:12:00 - [60] Originally by: Nero Scuro T2 isn't really any more 'fun' to fly than other ship classes. It just allows you, if you want to put the time and risk in, to truly specialize in something. At the frigate level, I think they are bit more fun to fly. IMHO the whole small frame T1 class needs an overhaul. But, I have a person bias for the small frame ships. Insuring T2 ships is not particularly usesful, since the payout does not come near the replacement cost of the ship; to say nothing of the fittings.

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