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Curzon Dax Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:28:00 - [1] There's been an inane amount of whining recently about NPC corps not getting taxed. While I am personally in favor of CCP giving into their whining, making 15% of NPC corp earning disappear into the void of space....and similiarly applying such a tax to all player corps, so that 15% of all their money disappears, I think that there's a more deep-seated issue. Players have too much ISK. Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. Such is life. However, the enormous amounts of ISK pouring into the game every single day makes the global trend of expenses infinitely climb. Please: 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. 2. Implement that 15% tax rate on NPC corps, as well as a factional 15% tax rate on all player corps. You've got to pay the man to keep a corporation. We need ISK sinks! 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Happy trails!
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:31:00 - [2] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/01/2007 19:35:03 Inflation actually isn't that bad. BPOs and skills are a massive sink on ISK, as are POSs. If there's one perfectly fair thing CCP could do to limit inflation, it would be removing insurance. This would mean that people would have to fly smaller ships, so fleets would consist of more of a variety of ships. Oh, and a "blanket 15% tax" is pointless--it would be the exact same thing as CCP simply decreasing all mission payouts and bounties by 15%. And finally, the top 5% who earn tons of ISK don't do it through taxable means P.S. A note to all responders to this thread: the OP is not serious about the blanket 15% tax idea, rather he is trying to provide yet another counterpoint to the other thread on the topic (the one about taxing NPC corporations), where he lost an argument. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:33:00 - [3] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/01/2007 19:34:43 That would only punish newcomers to the game. The poor players will have a difficult time getting up to speed, while the ones with isk today wont suffer nearly as much. And taking away insurance will lead to even less fights. So if you were trying to accomplish something good with these changes, think again... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:34:00 - [4] Heavily agreed. The death penalty is what makes EVE what it is, and there's no death penalty if you don't care about what you lose. The day BS loses became not only acceptable but commonplace was a bad day indeed. BS should never have been commonplace, they should have been rare with cruisers as the standard ship. ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Kyria Timeyu	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:38:00 - [5] No offense but a lot of what you said doesn't really make a lot of sense and you need to take some economics courses. Revelations basically stopped isk inflation and even led to a deflation as people bought massive amounts of new ship BPOs and bounty ratting was replaced by drones. The isk/dollar exchange ratio actually went up over the past months on ebay.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Nero Scuro Heavily agreed. The death penalty is what makes EVE what it is, and there's no death penalty if you don't care about what you lose. The day BS loses became not only acceptable but commonplace was a bad day indeed. BS should never have been commonplace, they should have been rare with cruisers as the standard ship. No Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Lord Lothian	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:38:00 - [7] Well, there are a shedload of ISK sinks ingame already. Case and point, close to a Billion isk in skills to fly a carrier.
BallsSnatcher	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:40:00 - [8] What the hell you talking about i have been playing 6 months, and money is still a pain in the ass. PVP is the isk sink, a corp can only afford so many losses. Then they break up, ask ASCN, I bet that titan was a big ISK sink they game is fine/ w any other game, the more time you play the more money you have unless your a tard Ammo is a isk sink, PVP is a big isk sink. You want to stablize the money, and market, bring to war to empire. Where all the care bear, monopoly guys can get some loses to eat up some of there fat piggy bank. YOu live in Empire pay a Concord Tax , a tax for them protecting you.
Kaimon ValDreth	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:40:00 - [9] it only means that capital ships have become the more rare... while not really that rare but still rare enough bs are no the commons... eventually motherships will be the rare and capital ships will be common difference being that it will still take players just under a year to fly the common
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:44:00 - [10] Originally by: DarkMatter Originally by: Nero Scuro Heavily agreed. The death penalty is what makes EVE what it is, and there's no death penalty if you don't care about what you lose. The day BS loses became not only acceptable but commonplace was a bad day indeed. BS should never have been commonplace, they should have been rare with cruisers as the standard ship. No Noob. See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too. ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.05 19:58:00 - [11] Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... Nothing should be forcefully rare (Not even T2, it should be mainstream by now). If ppl want to work towards a ship, buy one and fly it, they can... Don't need ppl like you telling them they can't because YOU want certain ships to be rare. Get over it. The T2 lottery is an artificial mechanism to keep T2 rare, and it's the biggest joke in this game... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:01:00 - [12] Originally by: BallsSnatcher ...PVP is the isk sink... ...I bet that titan was a big ISK sink... ISK sink is something that removes ISK from the game, not just from your wallet. PVP doesn't do that even if you get ransomed instead of blown up. Titan was a massive mineral and time sink and a modest and very indirect ISK sink (factory rent, NPC goods to fuel POSes, BPOs). ------ No ISK, no fun
Phiberoptick	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:27:00 - [13] PVP is a great isk sink
SolApathy Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/01/2007 19:35:03 And finally, the top 5% who earn tons of ISK don't do it through taxable means Tax Evasion 4tw just like a proper businessman Want to join GARDS - Click Me -
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:37:00 - [15] Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... Nothing should be forcefully rare (Not even T2, it should be mainstream by now). If ppl want to work towards a ship, buy one and fly it, they can... Don't need ppl like you telling them they can't because YOU want certain ships to be rare. Get over it. The T2 lottery is an artificial mechanism to keep T2 rare, and it's the biggest joke in this game... I didn't say anything about making battleships rare. By your logic I guess we should remove death-penalties entirely though, because they dictate what ships people can fly. I can't fly a titan and I want to. You got a problem with that? Tough, I want to fly one and they should cost as much as any other ship. ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Sylthi Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:44:00 - [16] The way I see it, inflation is driven MUCH more by the supply and demand side of the ecconomic equation than the isk supply in game. For proof of this one has to look no further than the price of the different HACs. Case in point: All HACs are T2 ships. All T2 BPOs are more or less rare. So, almost all HACs have (roughly) the same amount of BPOs for them in the game. Why then, is there more than a 400% percent price difference between different models? One answer: popularity, and therefore demand. To get specific, you can pick up one of the cheapest versions of a HAC for under 70 million. But, the most popular and widely used version, you can BARELY touch for 300 million. Whats the only difference? Simple: how many are bought and thereby how much the makers of the item can get away with charging. The people want the ship, so they will pay the inflated price, It's that simple. So, if you follow the logic through, why is there so much inflation in the game? Simple. Because CCP wants it that way. If they didn't, they would seed more T2 (and other rare) BPOs and BPCs. Is that a good or a bad thing? Well, that is a subject for another debate. * *
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Sylthi But, the most popular and widely used version, you can BARELY touch for 300 million. Just wondering... which one is this? Cerberus and Vagabond are both roughly 200 million. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:46:00 - [18] Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... QFT.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:47:00 - [19] I highly doubt players have to much ISK, a certain few do I'll agree but most of us have very little extra ISK, and making ISK for msot players is a slow monotonous process. If anything the bottom end means for making ISK need a serious boost.
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.05 20:48:00 - [20] I have too much isk? Thank you for telling that to my allmighty wallet of compulsive emptiness. If you really think everyone's having such an easy time getting isk you're delusional. I do indeed propose to lower gains tho, but mainly for those stupid lvl 4 missions in empire where with no risk you get rewards at least 3 times better than in certain 0.0 places (like Providence. Do you have any idea how much it sucks? ). Fix missions first, halved or even less bounties would make it even worse a grind than it is now to get money for us people who refuse to spend weeks and weeks GRINDING money to be able to pvp. Thought the point of eve was that you had choice not to grind? Well, it's hard for certain people as it is, and i don't want to play eve like it's some korean mmo. Of course that wouldn't affect the BPO owners at all and the mission ***s only minorly. Way to promote PvP. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Originally by:** Wrangler We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want both anti-social and social players to grief each other!
subvert	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Curzon Dax Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. Such is life. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:36:00 - [22] If you think it's too much ISK in game, try to do something that involves chance of losing ISK in the process. Of course, if someone is grinding agent all the time, it'll be too much ISK eventually
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:40:00 - [23] Originally by: subvert Originally by: Curzon Dax Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. Such is life. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system No, such is life. We're the hungry Africans of EVE.
nickky01 The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:45:00 - [24] great, turn all the pvp'ers into carebears some of us dont like to run missions all day, or sit in a system warping to each belt to make our money...hell you still lose 20-30 mil everytime your BS pops anyways ------------------------------------------- Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Oh and IAC's official response to ISS's offer is lollerskates.
Zephirz Blood Inquisition Sani Khal'Vecna	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:49:00 - [25] It wont change anything. Simple because there is that person with 100bil in his wallet and he will always pay a million more than the next guy. Srry but id like to be able to afford a hac sometime soon... zephirz
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:13:00 - [26] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... QFT. QFE. And about death penalties.... logoffski seems to be the 2nd biggest whine on these forums - a DIRECT result of high death penalties, hmm? Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Coasterbrian Gekidoku	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:19:00 - [27]
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Coasterbrian I see your and raise you a . Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Arrgs Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Apocryphai Originally by: Coasterbrian I see your and raise you a . I raise you My first video!
subvert	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:29:00 - [30] Edited by: subvert on 05/01/2007 22:30:31 Quote: Quote: Originally by: Ather Ialeas Such is life. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system No, such is life. We're the hungry Africans of EVE. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:35:00 - [31] Originally by: nickky01 great, turn all the pvp'ers into carebears some of us dont like to run missions all day, or sit in a system warping to each belt to make our money...hell you still lose 20-30 mil everytime your BS pops anyways I don't think anyone was suggesting that you should be forced to grind more. It's because T2 fitted BS are the norm in PvP now when they should be more the exception. If money was harder to make you wouldn't have to grind more (possibly even less than currently) because cheaper stuff would be more viable (the only reason you have to fly expensive stuff now is because everybody else flies expensive stuff). Originally by: Apocryphai Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... QFT. QFE. QFSTFUNOOBs ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:36:00 - [32] Great idea. Not everyone has no life. Normal eVe players have jobs, pay subscriptions, real lifes and an play eVe casually. Make it harder to make ISKs and newb, casual and normal players will leave eVe. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Joran Koba	Posted - 2007.01.06 00:17:00 - [33] Originally by: subvert Edited by: subvert on 05/01/2007 22:30:31 Quote: Quote: Originally by: Ather Ialeas Such is life. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system No, such is life. We're the hungry Africans of EVE. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system QFT
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2007.01.06 01:07:00 - [34] The more money you have, the more money you have. You need money to make money So after the changes, those already has money will still get more money those who dosn't have money will take much longer to get more money I dont mind
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.06 01:16:00 - [35] In support of this thread I just sent 3 billion isk to a disposable alt and sent him to biomass. Now if we can gather together and follow my example, we can bring up the relative value of the isk to be inline with the us $ so 1isk = $1. Once this has occurred we can all farm for a day and have a glorious ebay fest and become millionairres - quick like before the market is flooded. Whoa there... looks like i just stumbled across the formula for utopia. I'll be doing autographs later. If anyone thinks my idea doesn't work, it's because you don't understand. Now, lets all go and be millionairres,
Detech Gallente Abyss Restless	Posted - 2007.01.06 01:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Curzon Dax 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. Agreed. Why a certain mythical insurance company should pay wars of another's corporations on all galaxy? Wish to wage war - prepare for that your economy will suffer...
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.06 01:49:00 - [37] I wish idiots would stop trying to discuss the EVE economy. Here's a hint: ratting is actually fairly non-inflationary because the increased amount of ISK coming in is balanced by the creation of loot modules i.e. minerals, which means the proportional value of ISK compared to the value of minerals is preserved more or less.
Gut Punch Gallente The Revenant	Posted - 2007.01.06 02:56:00 - [38] Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: nickky01 great, turn all the pvp'ers into carebears some of us dont like to run missions all day, or sit in a system warping to each belt to make our money...hell you still lose 20-30 mil everytime your BS pops anyways I don't think anyone was suggesting that you should be forced to grind more. It's because T2 fitted BS are the norm in PvP now when they should be more the exception. If money was harder to make you wouldn't have to grind more (possibly even less than currently) because cheaper stuff would be more viable (the only reason you have to fly expensive stuff now is because everybody else flies expensive stuff). You assume that people who already have a stash of money will lower their prices. Besides, if money was harder to make, wouldn't that make it even more valuable? And who said T2 should be the exception? You? Who are you to say what I can fly? If I have the funds and am willing to risk the investment, then I want my additional edge. If you don't think that T2 should be the norm (which I'm not sure is truely the case now), go ahead and start. Take yours off your ship, sell them and then come back and tell us again. --- Gut Punch The Revenant --- Playing as Caldari is EVE on Easy Mode...
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.01.06 07:11:00 - [39] Originally by: Curzon Dax Players have too much ISK. The OP should explain how did he got to this conclusion. What is "too much ISK" for him? Could he at least give a concrete number that we could comment/discuss about?
Curzon Dax Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.06 07:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/01/2007 19:35:03 P.S. A note to all responders to this thread: the OP is not serious about the blanket 15% tax idea, rather he is trying to provide yet another counterpoint to the other thread on the topic (the one about taxing NPC corporations), where he lost an argument. DS, ignoring an argument because you're at a loss of a reasonable response doesn't constitute winning an argument. Yes, PvP is an ISK-sink, but not nearly the sink it should be, primarily because of insurance. If an insurance company finds out that you're primarily using your car for drive-by shootings, Burnout3 style road rage, and Jackass stunts, do you think they would be so eager to insure your car? Insurance in game should be a bit more realistic. =) And the bit about the blanket 15% tax was a jibe at the multitudes who seem to think that folks in NPC corps should have 15% of their ISK disappear into the void of space for no reason other than tax-envy, despite the fact that the lack of taxes plays itself out in the lack of corp support and infrastructure. I don't mind 15% of my ratting income disappearing for no return as long as 15% of yours does too. :)
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.01.06 07:49:00 - [41] Curzon, Insurance payout is not even a third of what I loose when a ship blows up. In fact, I don't even insure my ships anymore.
ollobrains Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.06 10:40:00 - [42] its assets not ISK that are the real inflation risk All posts made by myself represent my personal opinion only - they do not represent the rest of the privateer alliacne unless they decide to agree with what im saying
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:07:00 - [43] Originally by: Gut Punch You assume that people who already have a stash of money will lower their prices. Besides, if money was harder to make, wouldn't that make it even more valuable? I guess the only answer is to nerf peoples wallets before you did this then. Say 90% cut? Sounds good to me. Originally by: Gut Punch And who said T2 should be the exception? You? Who are you to say what I can fly? CCP when they made T2 harder to make and fly than T1. The problem is in EVE there are things that can never be lost - BPOs, skills, etc - which means things that are balanced to be harder to get and maintain will eventually become as common as you say. That's counterproductive. As someone in another thread posted 'It's not the having, it's the getting.' T2 isn't really any more 'fun' to fly than other ship classes. It just allows you, if you want to put the time and risk in, to truly specialize in something. a. If everybody can afford something then there is no risk. b. If you're 3 years old and have 50mil SP what else are you going to train? The time spent specializing isn't such a big deal anymore. It devalues what T2 is supposed to be and inevitably leads the game down the typical road of inevitable stagnation that games like WoW suffer from, because CCP would have to keep adding new 'toys' to keep you amused, which would only remain amusing for however long it took you to 'collect' and 'try' them all. If T2 was always more expensive to lose than anyone could comfortably afford then it would never need to be replaced by a new 'toy' because it would always be something special to be withheld for the right occasion. Originally by: Gut Punch If I have the funds and am willing to risk the investment, then I want my additional edge. Very true. And my argument is that people earn too much, so there is no 'risk' to your investment. Originally by: Gut Punch If you don't think that T2 should be the norm (which I'm not sure is truely the case now), go ahead and start. Take yours off your ship, sell them and then come back and tell us again. Logical fallacies in arguments 4tl. ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Gudrun Hart	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:25:00 - [44] Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: nickky01 It's because T2 fitted BS are the norm in PvP now when they should be more the exception. If money was harder to make you wouldn't have to grind more (possibly even less than currently) because cheaper stuff would be more viable (the only reason you have to fly expensive stuff now is because everybody else flies expensive stuff). LOL, does this make a difference? Would you not whine when only some very, very rich player could buy and fly T2 ships? We have already the forums full of whiners that T2 equipment is to expensive (me too ;-) ). And you fly the expensive stuff because you have the skills and the ISK and want the best equipment. It makes a difference when your T2 Assault ship meets a T1 Counterpart.
Gudrun Hart	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:37:00 - [45] Originally by: Nero Scuro Very true. And my argument is that people earn too much, so there is no 'risk' to your investment. Maybe some Player earn too much. But if we all risk your full wallet at once, then low sec would be empty. I have no problem with players who owns billions of ISK, why should i? A lot of stuff is getting cheaper in EvE and some are getting more and more expensive. Then CCP makes some updates and all is changing again. PvP lives from easy makeing ISK. Loose 100 Mio Ship and equipment, and after 1-3 days you back in PvP business. Ok, we could remove all T2, loose 10 Mio ship and after 1-3 days your back in PvP busines, but does that makes a difference and what will the older players train then? You need a motivation for them too.
LaCoHa The Carebear Stare Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:37:00 - [46] Originally by: Curzon Dax 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Please dont even say that.. after spending a billion isk for the skills just to be able to get into a almost 2 billion isk ship - I would say that raising those skill book costs anymore is just ridiculous. sorry. LaCoHa
MMXMMX Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:47:00 - [47] Edited by: MMXMMX on 06/01/2007 11:44:21 Originally by: Curzon Dax There's been an inane amount of whining recently about NPC corps not getting taxed. While I am personally in favor of CCP giving into their whining, making 15% of NPC corp earning disappear into the void of space....and similiarly applying such a tax to all player corps, so that 15% of all their money disappears, I think that there's a more deep-seated issue. Players have too much ISK. Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. Such is life. However, the enormous amounts of ISK pouring into the game every single day makes the global trend of expenses infinitely climb. Please: 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. 2. Implement that 15% tax rate on NPC corps, as well as a factional 15% tax rate on all player corps. You've got to pay the man to keep a corporation. We need ISK sinks! 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Happy trails! U ar Nuts Or maiby u ar dreaming :) I dont know
Klavayne Pack Of Shadows	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:57:00 - [48] Originally by: Curzon Dax If an insurance company finds out that you're primarily using your car for drive-by shootings, Burnout3 style road rage, and Jackass stunts, do you think they would be so eager to insure your car? Use a good example. Cars are not supposed to be used for that, hence a company wouldnt insure such activities. But combat ships are meant to be used to blow stuff up (the hints in the name) therefore they are being used as they are intended and wouldnt exactly violate insurance policies. Back to the original post. In that sense, EVE is exactly like the real world. 95% of the world's wealth is held by 5% of the population. I don't see you trying to change that. There are always going to be winners and losers, thats life (real or not).
Jhonen Senraedi Minmatar Decimus Corp Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:10:00 - [49] Of course..if NPC corps were taxed...then maybe more people would move into proper corps rather than hide in them and avoid wardecs etc? As for ship insurance..well..realistically no-one performing a crime(i.e. suicide ganking) should be reimbursed for a ship lost whilst perpetrating it. As for ships in war zones etc. well..costs may be higher but insurers in the real world would still provide some insurance even if at exorbitant rate.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Isyel I have too much isk? Thank you for telling that to my allmighty wallet of compulsive emptiness. If you really think everyone's having such an easy time getting isk you're delusional. I do indeed propose to lower gains tho, but mainly for those stupid lvl 4 missions in empire where with no risk you get rewards at least 3 times better than in certain 0.0 places (like Providence. Do you have any idea how much it sucks? ). Fix missions first, halved or even less bounties would make it even worse a grind than it is now to get money for us people who refuse to spend weeks and weeks GRINDING money to be able to pvp. Thought the point of eve was that you had choice not to grind? Well, it's hard for certain people as it is, and i don't want to play eve like it's some korean mmo. Of course that wouldn't affect the BPO owners at all and the mission *****s only minorly. Way to promote PvP. Please could you explaind 2 things: "those stupid lvl 4 missions in empire where with no risk you get rewards at least 3 times better than in certain 0.0 places". Where I can find them? or are you referring at the situation of 2 years ago, before 2 halving of the isk rewards, and the mega nerfing of the drop tables? "(like Providence. Do you have any idea how much it sucks? )." No, I have no idea, care to give and approximate value for the isk/hour gained, with and without loot? Really I am curious to know, as I see a good number of peole lamenting the low income in 0.0/low sec, but never some number. The only number I have seen are for 0.0 mining in the miners guide. Best isk gain for mining in hig sec. about 10 millions/our, in 0.0 more than 100 millions. RSVP
Ghoest	Posted - 2007.01.06 15:26:00 - [51] Edited by: Ghoest on 06/01/2007 15:26:23 The OP is a clueless twit. he doesnt exlain why more money coming in is bad. And he explains even less how his ideas will improve game play for the majority of players. Why? Because he has no idea himself. The truth is inflation/tech improvement(they are tied together but thats thread it self) is the only thing protecting new and poor players from the market power of the rich. Wherever you went - here you are.
000Hunter000 Gallente The Lookers	Posted - 2007.01.06 15:52:00 - [52] Hey why not start close to home? Just send e all your isk ingame and the eve world will be a better place Resized tag... again... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp... again :p
Rollio Polleaous 20th Legion	Posted - 2007.01.06 18:06:00 - [53] Didn't we have this discussion allready? Anyway I thought I'd toss an idea in, Insurance payouts in assets instead of isk, minerals sufficent to build a new ship or the ship itself? That way insurance doesn't magic money into existance. Who gave pend an isk printing permit anyway? The point about the isk made from ratting being in balance with the assets also spawned from ratting is worth repeating and maybe closer examination as it would be interesting to see how clever they were balancing that, I'd quote but I can't find it again. The various PvP = isk sink remarks are somewhat puzzeling, POS warefare is a large isk sink as when you blow up one of those you're literally blowing up ISK so yeah I'll concede that, Unless you're buying your ships of the npc's losing a ship isn't an isk sink, even with no insurance. Perhaps if you were made to carry isk around with you and it blew up. Has anybody listed the Isk sources and sinks in one of the past threads? So we have; Ratting, npc trading, mission rewards(ISK), Insurance. At the other end, Items bought from the NPCs: Skills, blueprints, rental, pos fuel and equipment, Insurance contracts which run out. So thats your isk flow, now the income excedes the outgoing, that's blanced opposite the material growth in the marketl; mined minerals, agent reward(materials),npc loot. I think the point in the op is that this is out of whack, the argument agasint beign that it can't be unbalanced as if there were too much isk then isk simply devalues to match so that isk = materials is always true. So if the finer things in eve are becoming more common then surely it's not becasue there's too much isk? Supply is at a point where if you want something you can have it. An isk imbalance, more perishable items bought from npc's or altering the isk:material ratio for agent rewards and rat hunting?
Fayn Trak	Posted - 2007.01.06 18:13:00 - [54] Npc trading may well be a larger source of isk than people imagine, as with all trade it takes isk to make isk but if it happens that the bulk of npc trading is done by the 20% who controll the 80% of wealth then you've got a lot of isk moving around growing. Though I'm inclined to think that most of the wealthy people in the game are the middle men somewhere in between the isk coming in and it leaving, Industrialists, resale agents and suchlike.
Wulinshu	Posted - 2007.01.06 18:39:00 - [55] Originally by: "rollio" altering the isk:material ratio for agent rewards and/or rat hunting? Rogue drones... How very constructive of me.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.06 20:08:00 - [56] NPC trading as an isk source? Beside the selling of tags and overseer belonging, I don't remember the NPC buying anithing (they have stopped buying mineral a while ago). I suspect that CCP think the isk faucet is too low, as the non-monetary bonus in missions have all been substituited by monetary ones.
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.01.06 20:38:00 - [57] Remove insurance imo.
KHEN Gallente New Horizons	Posted - 2007.01.07 02:50:00 - [58] I don't insure ships because the 3 months insurance for all the ships we use in corp (mostly Battleships and T2 cruisers) is more expansive than our losses during this period. => insurance is not an isk sink.
smashsmash	Posted - 2007.01.07 03:02:00 - [59] hi, john forbes nash here. i'd like everyone to know i've thought about the eve economy for about five minutes and all seems well. you all can stop worrying now. ---- Would you like some cries with your whaaamburger?
Rudolf Miller	Posted - 2007.01.07 03:12:00 - [60] Originally by: Nero Scuro T2 isn't really any more 'fun' to fly than other ship classes. It just allows you, if you want to put the time and risk in, to truly specialize in something. At the frigate level, I think they are bit more fun to fly. IMHO the whole small frame T1 class needs an overhaul. But, I have a person bias for the small frame ships. Insuring T2 ships is not particularly usesful, since the payout does not come near the replacement cost of the ship; to say nothing of the fittings.
Feerax FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 03:37:00 - [61] Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... Nothing should be forcefully rare (Not even T2, it should be mainstream by now). If ppl want to work towards a ship, buy one and fly it, they can... Don't need ppl like you telling them they can't because YOU want certain ships to be rare. Get over it. The T2 lottery is an artificial mechanism to keep T2 rare, and it's the biggest joke in this game... I didn't say anything about making battleships rare. By your logic I guess we should remove death-penalties entirely though, because they dictate what ships people can fly. I can't fly a titan and I want to. You got a problem with that? Tough, I want to fly one and they should cost as much as any other ship. You just... oh why bother. You are just simply an idiot and we have to accept it.
Siakel	Posted - 2007.01.07 08:33:00 - [62] Originally by: subvert Edited by: subvert on 05/01/2007 22:30:31 Quote: Quote: Originally by: Ather Ialeas Such is life. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system No, such is life. We're the hungry Africans of EVE. no, such is the broken T2 lottery system No. Just because you're incompetent and can't think of a way to make ISK outside of the T2 lottery system doesn't mean that's why those 5% are rich. Those 5% are rich because they worked for it. Do you honestly think that their research agents just crap out BPOs all over the place and yours are ignored? They work for their isk, and then buy them. One of the richest people I know in EVE doesn't own a single T2 BPO. He's richer than most T2 BPO owners I know. And he didn't use the 'broken lottery system' to do it. If the T2 lottery was never introduced, he'd still be one of the richest people in EVE. As would most(not all) of that current 5%. Because they know how to make money.
Vince Draken Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.07 08:36:00 - [63] Originally by: Curzon Dax Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. I can make things up to with out any proof or facts. The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.01.07 09:28:00 - [64] slightly off topic: how much _is_ 95% wealth in 5% wallets? just the dimensions to see where i fit in ^^
Jouno Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.07 09:43:00 - [65] Originally by: Curzon Dax 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Happy trails! Most retarded proposals i have seen yet, GJ!
Tryphid	Posted - 2007.01.07 11:03:00 - [66] Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 11:05:55 Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 11:03:25 Originally by: Curzon Dax However, the enormous amounts of ISK pouring into the game every single day makes the global trend of expenses infinitely climb. Please: 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. 2. Implement that 15% tax rate on NPC corps, as well as a factional 15% tax rate on all player corps. You've got to pay the man to keep a corporation. We need ISK sinks! 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Intro - Does it really? In my time in the game I have only really seen prices coming down gradually as things become more available. Very few items (covert ops cloak is an example) have risen in price, and this has been due to the effect of supply vs. demand.. a perfectly acceptable economic phenomenon. 1 - You intend to make rat hunting a near worthless profession and reduce us all to the droning monotony of mining? That is what will happen if mining vastly outweighs the isk/hour rewards of ratting. No thanks. I live in deep 0.0 and if I'm lucky I can earn maybe 10mil/hour. Woohoo! 2 - We need ISK sinks? Everytime I lose a ship I lose a fair few million in modules i can't insure. If it's a tech 2 ship and I can't even insure the value of the ship. Eve is full of ISK sinks already. 3 - This would empty 0.0 and lowsec of every carebear who ever dared venture out there. Say goodbye to most PVP as people do every conceivable thing they can think of to avoid having to fight anyone. Watch Empire clog up even more than it already is. Watch thousands upon thousands of people Logoffski at the first hint of trouble. Worst idea ever. I would maybe go so far as to agree to: No insurance payout if involved in commiting a criminal offence. 4 - Why? They are already prohibitvely expensive to a huge amount of players. It takes a very long time to even train up to the point where they are useful? I really don't understand what you are trying to achieve, short of making Eve less fun. I hope this is a joke thread. ps. This is a Game not a Job. GAMEGame
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.07 11:26:00 - [67] Originally by: Feerax Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... Nothing should be forcefully rare (Not even T2, it should be mainstream by now). If ppl want to work towards a ship, buy one and fly it, they can... Don't need ppl like you telling them they can't because YOU want certain ships to be rare. Get over it. The T2 lottery is an artificial mechanism to keep T2 rare, and it's the biggest joke in this game... I didn't say anything about making battleships rare. By your logic I guess we should remove death-penalties entirely though, because they dictate what ships people can fly. I can't fly a titan and I want to. You got a problem with that? Tough, I want to fly one and they should cost as much as any other ship. You just... oh why bother. You are just simply an idiot and we have to accept it. Uh huh. I'm the idiot, and yet I'm not the one incapable of even responding with a post more than 3 sentences long. Did the thought of all those big words hurt your tiny mind? ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...
Ze4K DK Gallente RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.01.07 11:33:00 - [68] Originally by: Curzon Dax Insurance in game should be a bit more realistic. =) You mean realistic like crazy lasers and missiles flying around crazy with a bunch of drones pwning some random spaceship... d00d... it's a game, it's not meant to be realistic it's meant to be fun... If you want realism go play MS Flight Simulator...
Ze4K DK Gallente RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.01.07 11:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: Feerax Originally by: Nero Scuro Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: See, I can be an unconstructive ass-hole too You've had that down pat for quite some time... Nothing should be forcefully rare (Not even T2, it should be mainstream by now). If ppl want to work towards a ship, buy one and fly it, they can... Don't need ppl like you telling them they can't because YOU want certain ships to be rare. Get over it. The T2 lottery is an artificial mechanism to keep T2 rare, and it's the biggest joke in this game... I didn't say anything about making battleships rare. By your logic I guess we should remove death-penalties entirely though, because they dictate what ships people can fly. I can't fly a titan and I want to. You got a problem with that? Tough, I want to fly one and they should cost as much as any other ship. You just... oh why bother. You are just simply an idiot and we have to accept it. Uh huh. I'm the idiot, and yet I'm not the one incapable of even responding with a post more than 3 sentences long. Did the thought of all those big words hurt your tiny mind? ehm... well... if you take "Uh huh" as a sentence then you just responded with a post that was 3 sentences long... just FYI ^^
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:42:00 - [70] Nice. It seems that the opposition to Nero Scuro is employing swarm tactics, because they are unable to actually make a point. And, no, "T2 should be commonplace" isn't a point unless you explain why. Here's why I think that T2 should never be commonplace: because every MMORPG must have 'high end' gear that is exceedingly hard to get, so that players have something to look forward to, and because making HACs commonplace would make lots of T1 ships pointless, thus greatly reducing game diversity. And here's why I think that 5% of players controlling 95% of wealth is just fine: because we must have the possibility of exceptional success. In most other MMORPGs, an incompetent player can get to almost exactly the same point as a pro, it will only take him more time. In EVE, if you are good, you can reach heights that an average player can only dream of. Few players being vastly more wealthy than everyone else is a natural consequence of this. And spare me the T2 lottery whining. Most T2 BPOs make very little money; only a handful can make billions and most ultrarich people have got where they are without them. You can do so as well. A few dozens players got lucky and had the road to wealth paved for them; so what? Once again, that's life.
KenDoll	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:21:00 - [71] Quote: ps. This is a Game not a Job. the most relevant and yet unfortunatly forgotten factor of the game, to many whine's center on making this game the complete opposite of fun and rather Making it more of a JOB than a game.
subvert	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:24:00 - [72] Edited by: subvert on 07/01/2007 13:21:01 Originally by: Siakel Those 5% are rich because they worked for it. T2 owners won a random lottery for the most valuable items in the game. is that "work?"
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:30:00 - [73] Originally by: subvert Some current T2 owners won a random lottery, for the most valuable items in the game, which everyone had a chance to enter. Fixed for you. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in?
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:50:00 - [74] Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 07/01/2007 13:47:23 Nonono, you are doing it all wrong Curzon Dax. If you really want to see the crowd go into a rage you need to make a post like "Why aren't I allowed to own a POS in a NPC corp?". Btw. nobody "won" any argumentation about trying to force players out of NPC corps as the "suggestions" are as old as the game and the reality is that nothing has EVER been done to enforce them. So apparently EVE is indeed made with that possibile play style as a legimate option. In other news: CCP is going to use faction warfare to encourage players out of the NPC corps. Not as a tool for 1337d00ds c0rp to conqurer the Amarr Empire. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Kunming Amarr Outcasts	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:10:00 - [75] Originally by: Curzon Dax There's been an inane amount of whining recently about NPC corps not getting taxed. While I am personally in favor of CCP giving into their whining, making 15% of NPC corp earning disappear into the void of space....and similiarly applying such a tax to all player corps, so that 15% of all their money disappears, I think that there's a more deep-seated issue. Players have too much ISK. Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. Such is life. However, the enormous amounts of ISK pouring into the game every single day makes the global trend of expenses infinitely climb. Please: 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. 2. Implement that 15% tax rate on NPC corps, as well as a factional 15% tax rate on all player corps. You've got to pay the man to keep a corporation. We need ISK sinks! 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Happy trails! I'm sure you didnt post this to anger ppl, but I believe you are out of your mind and pretty blind too. You contradict your own arguements by saying that the riches are in the hands of the small 5% but then say we should nerf the income of everyone.. I'm a pvper and NOT a power-gamer, I have a limited amount of time I can enjoy EVE and in that time I wanna have as much fun as possible. What I hate most is the grinding (aka carebearing), yes carebearing makes you filthy rich cause a smart carebear can avoid any conflict and never lose any money. Now a pvper, no matter how good s/he is (Farjung.. vindi.. killmail..), will lose money sooner or later, so he has to do stuff he doesnt enjoy that much to cover his/her losses. Now according to your suggestion of decreasing the income made from carebearing + increasing the risk and cost of pvping you will solve the inflation of ISK. WRONG!! Your main assumption is wrong.. "Players have too much ISK".. no we frikkin dont have too much ISK, carebears, T2 BPO owners and scammers have too much ISK maybe, your average (by average I mean no power-gamer) 0.0 citizen has barely enough money to buy and fit a battleship. Your suggestions will only reduce the amount of pvp in game and even more the amount of fair pvp (opposite is blobing, logoffski, various exploits, etc), and that will be most beneficial to the carebears and industrialist (which I assume you are one of em) who will add even more riches to their never consumed riches. If you are looking for ISK sinks, start to think about how to melt that massive ISK reserves of T2 BPO holders and empire carebears... cause pvpers and the like have already enough expenses due to the fact that they actually RISK something as opposed to the carebears. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Kunming Amarr Outcasts	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:27:00 - [76] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: subvert Some current T2 owners won a random lottery, for the most valuable items in the game, which everyone had a chance to enter. Fixed for you. That doesnt change the fact that chance based systems suck hard for a game thats meant to be build upon strategy, tactics and economics. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Kira Lamaar	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:33:00 - [77] While I do think there's too much ISK floating around in Eve (anyone heard the term "hyper-inflation" ?!?), I don't really want that many more ISK-sinks in the game. I WOULD like to see a little more realism, though... 1. Insurance - Whoever said that insurance companies only look at whether you're using your car as a transport device rather than a getaway vehicle is a complete idiot. Insurance companies look at what you're doing with an item ONLY AS FAR AS IT AFFECTS THE RISK THAT THEY'LL HAVE TO PAY OUT. If an insurance company believes that there's a 95% chance they'll have to pay out, they'll charge you 110% of the expected payout (so that they can make profit). You should be able to buy insurance for ships being used in Empire space, but Low-Sec is close to and 0.0 IS lawless. Would YOU let me pay you 5m ISK to insure my ship and pay me 15m ISK a week later when I got it popped in 0.0? Maybe? Would you let me do it a third, fourth, fifth time? No? So why should the insurance companies. 2. Reducing benefits - If I were magically able to mine a trillion units of Mercoxite (sp?) and put it all on the market at the top price, would it sell? No... because now that there's so much of it, the value declines. Standard economics. The same should apply to the endless stream of missions and ratting being performed. Kill 1m rat BS's in a belt for an hour, and they'll only have BC's left. And so on... Why do I want this? Simple... I've only seen a little PvP so far, but most of that is BC's, BS's and some T2 Cruisers floating around. What's the point of all the wide array of ships, if they seldom get used, because everyone wants into a bigger ship? Based on a rather nice mathematical thing I read somewhere (which I now can't remember the name of), a good space battle might consist of : 1 Capital ship 2 BS's 4 BC's 8 Cruisers 16 Frigates You'd need much more teamwork, co-ordination and skill, and combat would be a lot more interesting than a bunch of BS's nos'ing and slugging each other to death.
Tryphid	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:34:00 - [78] Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 14:52:30 Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 14:52:11 Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: subvert Some current T2 owners won a random lottery, for the most valuable items in the game, which everyone had a chance to enter. Fixed for you. That doesnt change the fact that chance based systems suck hard for a game thats meant to be build upon strategy, tactics and economics. How do you strategically invent things? I think the chance based (ie. lottery) system of T2 BPO's is about as fair as things can get. It falls right in line with the 'Lucky Break' success stories of the real world. Someone has the right idea, at the right time, and makes a difference, and gets sticking rich as a result. So what? People complain so much, but what would you prefer? I've not yet seen an alternative suggested that is any fairer than a lottery system. Regarding the above post stating that most PVP is only BS, BC and tech 2 Cruisers... can you say overgeneralisation? Without any tacklers present to hold these ships down (ie. fast frigates, interceptors) to web and scram.. well.. not sure what kind of PVP you're getting involved in, but I can tell you it's different where I hang out. Also, just because someone lives in 0.0 doesn't mean they are anymore likely to get their ship popped than if someone lives in empire. I for one have been flying the same Dominix quite happily for several months now. I really don't think I should have to pay more for my insurance, it's usually Learner drivers and the young who pay more.. ie. you empire lot should be the ones with the higher premiums.
Mather Maelstrom Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:55:00 - [79] My thoughts: I PvP, tbh I don't have the cash to PvP, but I still do it till I am bound to high secure space again, doing boring missions getting plenty of isk without the risk. NPC's in belts, at least those in Syndicate hardly provide the isk I need and they seem to drop less loot since the wrecks have been implemented. I don't fancy flying a ship fitted with a salvager a tractor beam and what not... These modules are for people with alts to haul. My random thoughts: Missions are extremely boring and should be removed from the game. Opening up strip clubs and casino's should be the alternative way to make isk in this game. The quality of spawns should be related to the amount of ships + pods lost in a region/ constellation per day combined with the security status. The minor factor in the equation being security status + ships and pods being the largest factor. //No Pro Gallente RP, no Coreli & Cyrene anymore\\
Tryphid	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:00:00 - [80] Originally by: Mather Maelstrom My thoughts: The quality of spawns should be related to the amount of ships + pods lost in a region/ constellation per day combined with the security status. The minor factor in the equation being security status + ships and pods being the largest factor. Wow.. Imagine the spawns in Jita
Mather Maelstrom Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:17:00 - [81] Edited by: Mather Maelstrom on 07/01/2007 16:14:56 empire will be the exception to the rule and any other region that gets unbalanced. fixed //No Pro Gallente RP, no Coreli & Cyrene anymore\\
Ghoest	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:08:00 - [82] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Im a clueless dunder head. Fixed for you. Wherever you went - here you are.
Tryphid	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:14:00 - [83] I'm loving it So basically, the best spawns can be found where-ever the most pod pilots have recently been massacred. The net result would be people looking for podkill hotspots on their maps, and then setting them as destinations in the hope they find a good rat? Hundreds of noobs trying to get into 0.0 choke points in search of a good loot drop. Like lambs to the slaughter. It would certainly make gatecamps more eventful.
bigfatbird Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:40:00 - [84] Originally by: Curzon Dax There's been an inane amount of whining recently about NPC corps not getting taxed. While I am personally in favor of CCP giving into their whining, making 15% of NPC corp earning disappear into the void of space....and similiarly applying such a tax to all player corps, so that 15% of all their money disappears, I think that there's a more deep-seated issue. Players have too much ISK. Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. Such is life. However, the enormous amounts of ISK pouring into the game every single day makes the global trend of expenses infinitely climb. Please: 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. 2. Implement that 15% tax rate on NPC corps, as well as a factional 15% tax rate on all player corps. You've got to pay the man to keep a corporation. We need ISK sinks! 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Happy trails! No! Kthnxbye
Curzon Dax Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.07 18:02:00 - [85] Originally by: Tryphid Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 11:05:55 I hope this is a joke thread. ps. This is a Game not a Job. GAMEGame laughing Yes, this thread was quite satirical, and I'm getting a good chuckle even as we speak. :)
Fayn Trak	Posted - 2007.01.07 18:58:00 - [86] Originally by: "Venkul" NPC trading as an isk source? Beside the selling of tags and overseer belonging, I don't remember the NPC buying anithing (they have stopped buying mineral a while ago). I suspect that CCP think the isk faucet is too low, as the non-monetary bonus in missions have all been substituited by monetary ones. Trading in bulk of the npc products Found here before they fixed the bug that caused supply prices to reset after downtime, the downtime traders made billions. When done in bulk it must still generate a large fraction of what we see ingame, the mission running/npc/insurance influx of isk doesn't observe the rule that the more isk you have the more you can earn. Interesting that they've done that to the missions but reversed it for the drones. Originally by: "Tryphid" 2 - We need ISK sinks? Everytime I lose a ship I lose a fair few million in modules i can't insure. If it's a tech 2 ship and I can't even insure the value of the ship. Eve is full of ISK sinks already. No isk is lost when a ship is blown up(unless it's got a cargohold full of npc supplied produts). Your isk was moved to an industrialsts wallet when you bought the ship, that in turn will be moved into some miners wallet who will likely then spend it on another ship, it's a common enough remark in threads like this.
Kunming Outcasts	Posted - 2007.01.08 01:20:00 - [87] Originally by: Tryphid Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 14:52:30 Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 14:52:11 Originally by: Kunming ... How do you strategically invent things? I think the chance based (ie. lottery) system of T2 BPO's is about as fair as things can get. It falls right in line with the 'Lucky Break' success stories of the real world. Someone has the right idea, at the right time, and makes a difference, and gets sticking rich as a result. So what? People complain so much, but what would you prefer? I've not yet seen an alternative suggested that is any fairer than a lottery system. - How do you strategically invent things? You make it require various different resources and spread these resources across various different 0.0 regions. So ppl either trade or fight over these and hence player interaction is created. Every aspect of player interaction is strategic! - It falls right in line with the 'Lucky Break' success stories of the real world. Not only is EVE a multiplayer-game and not "real world" (so it should be fair for every player), your RL example is vastly lacking in facts. TV was invented by a farmboy in US, the fella died relatively poor! Telephone was invented by Graham Bell, the biggest phone companies today are Nokia, Sony-Ericsson and Benq-Siemens, the Bell family has nothing to do with either of the 3 companies.. Originally by: Tryphid I'm loving it So basically, the best spawns can be found where-ever the most pod pilots have recently been massacred. The net result would be people looking for podkill hotspots on their maps, and then setting them as destinations in the hope they find a good rat? Hundreds of noobs trying to get into 0.0 choke points in search of a good loot drop. Like lambs to the slaughter. It would certainly make gatecamps more eventful. LOL, are you some sick puppy that gets bullied at school all the time?! Or do you simply lack self confidence and balls to go get ur self a fair fight? Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Earthan Gallente The Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.01.08 01:30:00 - [88] Originally by: Curzon Dax There's been an inane amount of whining recently about NPC corps not getting taxed. While I am personally in favor of CCP giving into their whining, making 15% of NPC corp earning disappear into the void of space....and similiarly applying such a tax to all player corps, so that 15% of all their money disappears, I think that there's a more deep-seated issue. Players have too much ISK. Yes, 95% of the wealth in Eve is controlled by 5% of the people. Such is life. However, the enormous amounts of ISK pouring into the game every single day makes the global trend of expenses infinitely climb. Please: 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. 2. Implement that 15% tax rate on NPC corps, as well as a factional 15% tax rate on all player corps. You've got to pay the man to keep a corporation. We need ISK sinks! 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Happy trails! no mate. Fun in this game = pvp. Much less isk -> less pvp -> less fun. The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
Detech Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.01.08 02:00:00 - [89] Edited by: Detech on 08/01/2007 01:58:17 Yeah! Let's ask give out GM to each player on 100 billion ISK. It is More ISK -> more PVP -> than more fan
Earthan Gallente The Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.01.08 09:05:00 - [90] Edited by: Earthan on 08/01/2007 09:02:01 ofc i simplified it , no mood to write for the 1000 time same arguments. Being given isk makes pvp no fun, but having good return from your actions so you can afford it certainly helps it. If it was start of the game i could think about chaningng all rewards so everything stops at cruicers level more or less, bs rare.But as poeple mentioned changing it now would nerf tottaly all newer and future new players compared to old Insurance is good imho no need to touch it.Every bs lost is still the cost of insurance + fittings .Makes it around 35 milions cost on average for me , often higher.I can make this isk in around 1h-1,5 h of npcing in belt.I guess its balanced , i dont want to spend 5 evenings a week npcing so i can loose 1 bs. The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.08 09:52:00 - [91] Originally by: Mather Maelstrom Edited by: Mather Maelstrom on 07/01/2007 16:14:56 empire will be the exception to the rule and any other region that gets unbalanced. fixed I admire your lack of logic. First you want to remove 1 of the largest sources of isk in high sec (mission running, the others are mining and marketing). Then when someone point that implementing your idea would create an alternate source of isk in empire too, you immediatly squas that too. Wath you want is no cash in empire. But without a functioning empire your belowed low sec will be even more wasteland as most of the payers will leave and the others will be unable to support the EVe econmy. Good thing that the Dev will never consider your idea.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:01:00 - [92] Originally by: Fayn Trak Originally by: "Venkul" NPC trading as an isk source? Beside the selling of tags and overseer belonging, I don't remember the NPC buying anithing (they have stopped buying mineral a while ago). I suspect that CCP think the isk faucet is too low, as the non-monetary bonus in missions have all been substituited by monetary ones. Trading in bulk of the npc products Found here before they fixed the bug that caused supply prices to reset after downtime, the downtime traders made billions. When done in bulk it must still generate a large fraction of what we see ingame, the mission running/npc/insurance influx of isk doesn't observe the rule that the more isk you have the more you can earn. I may be dense but I don't get the sense of your reply. Those item are brought from NPC, so they are a isk sink, not an isk faucet. Even if reselling them give isk, those isk don't come from otu of the game, so thei make someone richer and some other player poorer, but don't change the total isks present in game. Or you know some NPC corporation buying them? and at a price higher ot the NPC corporation selling them?
Tryphid	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:08:00 - [93] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Tryphid Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 14:52:30 Edited by: Tryphid on 07/01/2007 14:52:11 Originally by: Kunming ... - How do you strategically invent things? You make it require various different resources and spread these resources across various different 0.0 regions. So ppl either trade or fight over these and hence player interaction is created. Every aspect of player interaction is strategic! - It falls right in line with the 'Lucky Break' success stories of the real world. Not only is EVE a multiplayer-game and not "real world" (so it should be fair for every player), your RL example is vastly lacking in facts. TV was invented by a farmboy in US, the fella died relatively poor! Telephone was invented by Graham Bell, the biggest phone companies today are Nokia, Sony-Ericsson and Benq-Siemens, the Bell family has nothing to do with either of the 3 companies.. Originally by: Tryphid I'm loving it So basically, the best spawns can be found where-ever the most pod pilots have recently been massacred. The net result would be people looking for podkill hotspots on their maps, and then setting them as destinations in the hope they find a good rat? Hundreds of noobs trying to get into 0.0 choke points in search of a good loot drop. Like lambs to the slaughter. It would certainly make gatecamps more eventful. LOL, are you some sick puppy that gets bullied at school all the time?! Or do you simply lack self confidence and balls to go get ur self a fair fight?
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:59:00 - [94] I'd just like to point out that if you are a PVP'er you don't get to sit back and say "I'm an ISK sink". Because you're not. In fact PVP'ers would tend to be the biggest ISK contributers to the game because they're combat orientated and thus rat a lot to make money (or run Lvl 4's on their off days). Ships blowing up do not take ISK out of the game, because your ship was made by someone else, who now has the ISK, who built it with mined materials. In fact, PVP is probably the biggest inflationary pressure on ISK that is possible in EVE, since it's actively removing minerals from the game while adding ISK - thus the value of minerals compared to ISK rises. Fortunately, there are a number of down pressures on this. One of these is the fact that ratting drops loot which represents minerals, as do Level 4 missions. The others are NPC goods disappearing into POS's which tend to be associated with PVP, not to mention POS towers and modules themselves being NPC buyable (a good POS war is good for slowing down inflation). Thus: PVP'ers - you don't get to whine about inflation being caused by people not playing the game like you do. Because it's blatently not the case. However, because EVE is a many and complex system, and due to the actual economic data the devs have shown us, inflation is very under control in EVE. But you don't get to say it's because of PVP - ship to ship - directly.
Xsag Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.01.08 11:12:00 - [95] Edited by: Xsag on 08/01/2007 11:11:22 Edited by: Xsag on 08/01/2007 11:11:05 [QUOTE]2. Implement that 15% tax rate on NPC corps, as well as a factional 15% tax rate on all player corps. You've got to pay the man to keep a corporation. We need ISK sinks![QUOTE] yeah but in player corps you can redistribute that money amongst yourselves cant you there is no such way to do this within an npc corp ~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ / ~~Muvolailen~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.01.08 11:38:00 - [96] Please show me those players that make TOO much ISK and are not T2 BPO owners or don't have numerous alts to support the ISK machine. From personal experience I can tell that I'm playing nearly for 2 years now. Only at 1 point my wealth reached 1.4 bill and 1 bill of it was a pure chance. Then I made a bad investment and it went to usual 400 mill. You claim players make too much ISK, I claim some items are overpriced and some are totally out of reach for many players. Losing T2 fitted bs is a serious hit to my wallet. Losing a HAC is a crushing blow. T2 implants are completely out of reach, so is everything connected with capital ships. Its not a whine, it's fact. Make getting ISK harder for those who have many billions already and you totally eliminate from the game many players who struggle with ISK making now.
Dekiri Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2007.01.08 11:58:00 - [97] Originally by: Curzon Dax 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. You realize that this would make absolutly no sense? If you cut the possible income by 1/2 you punish the poor and especially the people who start eve now. And on top of this you increase the value of the currently existing money, wich would also make it even worse. BAD IDEA THINK AGAIN PLEASE Originally by: Curzon Dax 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. This is where i realized that you really have no clue what you are talking about and don't even grasp simple mathematic concepts. Let me get this straight. PvP is what decreases inflation in eve, because things get blown up. What you are trying is to punish people who initiate PvP and you hope for decreased inflation with this? 1+1=5 ? Originally by: Curzon Dax 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Agree 100% it is really not enough that you already have to pay about 600ish mil in skillbooks to be able to fly a dread, wich is pretty much required to play the game on alliance level. Definitly need to make this more expensive so only people with T2 BPO's have a chance to ever fly those =) Overall i think the Deep Core Mining Inc. is probably not the home of the great minds in eve. Thanks. PS: Eve does not have a problem with inflation at all btw. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur
Xsag Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.01.08 12:15:00 - [98] Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Curzon Dax 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. You realize that this would make absolutly no sense? If you cut the possible income by 1/2 you punish the poor and especially the people who start eve now. And on top of this you increase the value of the currently existing money, wich would also make it even worse. BAD IDEA THINK AGAIN PLEASE Originally by: Curzon Dax 3. Take away insurance payouts for anyone in lowsec, 0.0, or involved on the aggressing side of a war. Insurance should only pay out in Empire space, and as the result of accidents or bad fortune. Suicide gankers should not get reimbursed. This is where i realized that you really have no clue what you are talking about and don't even grasp simple mathematic concepts. Let me get this straight. PvP is what decreases inflation in eve, because things get blown up. What you are trying is to punish people who initiate PvP and you hope for decreased inflation with this? 1+1=5 ? Originally by: Curzon Dax 4. Increase the cost of higher end skillbooks! Agree 100% it is really not enough that you already have to pay about 600ish mil in skillbooks to be able to fly a dread, wich is pretty much required to play the game on alliance level. Definitly need to make this more expensive so only people with T2 BPO's have a chance to ever fly those =) Overall i think the Deep Core Mining Inc. is probably not the home of the great minds in eve. Thanks. PS: Eve does not have a problem with inflation at all btw. /signed a well thought out response to someone who clearly has no idea what eve is like for most ppl - i for one have managed to get a bs the next step up will be 10 time as expensive and with no realistic way of getting there ~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ / ~~Muvolailen~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~
framolia Morticus Impendium	Posted - 2007.01.08 12:19:00 - [99] This is to the op. Shut up and make some isk will you!
Rollio Polleaous 20th Legion	Posted - 2007.01.08 12:23:00 - [100] Originally by: Venkul Mul Or you know some NPC corporation buying them? and at a price higher ot the NPC corporation selling them? I think that's true of most of those materials. Only the materials which double as pos fuel are bought by players so that is indeed an isk sink, everythign else is npc traded though(ther is or was a few that have no seller or buyer in there).
Daftex Muleson Minmatar UNITED KINGDOM MAYHEM	Posted - 2007.01.08 12:33:00 - [101] Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Curzon Dax 1. Make NPC bounties worth 1/2 as much as they are, or less. Virtually all ISK flowing into the game is from NPC rats. You realize that this would make absolutly no sense? If you cut the possible income by 1/2 you punish the poor and especially the people who start eve now. And on top of this you increase the value of the currently existing money, wich would also make it even worse. BAD IDEA THINK AGAIN PLEASE Exactly...this would just penalise the new eve players and those of us who can't dedicate several hours on a daily basis to playing Eve and generating ISK. If I hit the 10 mil ISK mark I think I'm doing well!
Mira deVorsha	Posted - 2007.01.08 13:03:00 - [102] actually just thought that 15% tax may be a good thing. Providing the corp in question gives you a dividend or share of profits at the end of the month. So you have the chance to get your money back, people who are long term players will be hit harder (with large amounts of cash) while the newbie players will get more cash to play with (don't worry they will waste it).
WisdomLikeSilence Knights of Red Mars Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.08 14:23:00 - [103] it's understandable that there are so many threads on inflation on the EVE economy since economics is so fundamentally interesting. TO JERKS! But seriously, if anyone can come up with a way to stabilise currency values in an open-ended free market economy, then get yourself to the United Nations general assembly building and tell all, because RL or not, that **** is revolutionary. Economies are chaotic, in the mathematical sense of the word. Small differences in initial conditions can produce unforseeable and large differences along the line. To that end, in most countries, inflation must be managed on a monthly basis by a team of professionals using a number of imperfect financial tools, such as raising or lowering the interest rates on lending money for banks and other financial institutions. In order to keep eve's economy ticking along the fellas in Iceland occasionaly tinker with this and that, achieving a generally flat rate of inflation. Why is there any inflation at all? you ask. Because, gentle reader - the Economy is GROWING. There is always MORE of everything including players. There is a tension between the cost of goods and the available currency with which to buy them. If the player base ever shrinks, then this will slacken, leading to a fall in the cost of goods... Any blunt instrument attempt to fool about with the economy would have unforseeable results. Since the set of all results which would lead to NO change in inflation is well smaller than the set of results which WOULD lead to change, its is probable that any attempt to reduce inflation in this way would BE BAD. Flame away, I can tank it. I want to use my robot-wisdo body!
Crag Heyder Gallente Icosothron Industries	Posted - 2007.01.08 14:45:00 - [104] Edited by: Crag Heyder on 08/01/2007 14:42:16 LOL - It's quite funny to me how when browsing through these forums, the same 10-15 people think they have all the fixes for all the broken parts of this game. It's pretty obvious to them that the people at CCP have no idea on how to create a good game, yet still they play. I have no desire to go into 0.0 right now. They are too serious. Does this mean I'm not deserving of earning a lot of money? I don't think so. Here is my (casual player) opinion: People who think the game is broken, like the OP, go out and make your own game. Also, take the arguments to other threads, there is too much to have to sift through to get the meat of the subject. Leave the missions alone, why should someone have to go to 0.0 or lowsec to run a level 4 mission? Because you think that it is too easy to make lots of isk that way? If you think there is too much isk floating around, I would offer you a suggestion: give it all to the charitable organization of your choice. Also, you could buy yourself the most expensive ship and mod you can get and run a level 4 in Iges. I'm sure the good folks at Turby would be more than happy to help you out with your excess baggage. There are so many people who do nothing but complain about how things work in the game, but then something gets changed and then they complain about that too. Like invention. It seems to me, that most of the fixes suggested by people like the OP aren't really about fixing the game. It is more like they feel a resentment to the people who were able, through hard work, lots of time and a bit of luck are able to have a lot of what the complainers don't have - FUN!!! The solution - find a game you can play without having to try to fix it. ::edited for a typo::
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.08 15:39:00 - [105] Rising demand and limited supply is not the same thing as inflation. If inflation was rising in Eve the T1 market would rise at the same rate as the T2 market. Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Amadeus Brasky Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.01.08 15:44:00 - [106] The EVE model follows real life. I bet we would all be surprised how many EVE players have TOO much ISK, but on the other hand, I bet we would all be surprised at the number of EVE players that have an AVERAGE amount of isk. In real life, there are rich people, there are poor people, and there are plenty of people in between. Should we change the rules so that a high school sophomore flipping burgers and no pertinent working skills can make as much money as an ivy league educated busniess executive just because it's the fair thing to do? No, people with more skill, more experience, more drive, more motivation make the most money. That's the way it should be. Just my two isk. -Brasky
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.08 16:12:00 - [107] how much isk, is too much isk? Trading 101

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