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HatePeace LoveWar Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:42:00 - [91] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 09/01/2007 08:26:20 Originally by: Master Spoonman D2 began a war upon ISS for insults such as when D2 fleet movement was leaked by members of ISS, a 'neutral' 0.0 entity. And were promptly booted from the alliance for doing so. That argument doesn't hold any water, as has been pointed out multiple times. I'm sure there are other reasons but people seem to like to bring this one up every time. The fact is that the situation was unpreventable and was handled very effectively. EDIT: With regards D2 taking Cassini, let's be clear about one thing. At the time they took it, regardless of past agreements, the outpost did not belong to ISS. The outpost belonged to shareholders and was managed by ISS on their behalf. D2 haven't taken anything from ISS, they've stolen public property. ISS's assets in the area are the member corp POS, ships, modules etc. The stations we run are not ISS assets, they belong entirely to the corps, alliances and players who purchased shares in their IPOs. I don't expect that any other alliance will ever respect the public ownership of ISS-managed outposts but the bottom line is that they are attacking and siezing the assets of a diverse group of individuals, corps and alliances that they are not politically hostile with. Some would call that piracy, others would just call it theft. Personally, I just think it's a shame. We're currently discussing how to handle reimbursement to shareholders and if D2 had any honour they would recognise that they have just stolen shareholder property (of which BoB was a fairly big shareholder) and would contribute some isk toward reimbursing the shareholders. Regardless of whether or not D2 wants this to have been a clean cut "spoils of war" deal for them and a simple D2 vs ISS attack, it is not that simple. For example, with the share percentage ownership that BoB have in Cassini, D2 have just effectively nicked a few billion off them (unless they've sold the shares since then). I know that's a drop in the ocean for them but I wonder what they think of that. Another fact is that losing the outposts, while it may spook some member corps, will not ruin ISS as an organisation. Far from it, the ISSO IPO will not be harmed by it significantly as there are plenty of other places to trade to make the same level of profit. The ISS as an organisation is our asset and is what makes the ISS trade hub outposts worthwhile. Most of the outposts themselves are mediocre at best, placed in areas with little strategic benefit and poor natural resources. Morale high ground and idealism gets you nowhere in eve. Only two things get you what you want: Guns and ISK. You've been overwhelmed by one of these and the other isn't enough to save you.
God's Army Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:12:00 - [92] Originally by: Secondus Dawkins Edited by: Secondus Dawkins on 08/01/2007 15:33:23 (edited for spelling) Originally by: Smoking Mirror Edited by: Smoking Mirror on 08/01/2007 14:38:45 Exactly. If D2 wants to make this right, then return the 20 billion to Cassini shareholders. They could have just refused the deal, accepted the loss, and kept their honor, or returned the 20 billion and kept some honor. If they keep the money and take the station, they show they have no honor. Do the right thing, D2. Return the 20 billion to Cassini shareholders who paid it to you in good faith. Let's clear this up. If someone beats me up and steals my house, I'm going to be cranky. If they then give it to their friend, I'm going to be crankier still. If their friend then offers me some pity money, I may just take it, but they did not just buy the rights to my house, they bought off their own guilt. They are illegal tenants and I will take the house back given any opportunity. Some might disagree with this interpretation, but as The Trust no longer exists as a political entity, it's members are not bound by any of its perceived obligations. well said, GJ D2 ---- Long life the warrios of God R0ADKILL ALLIANCE Killboard
Logan Williams Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:14:00 - [93] Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: Fi T'Zeh Quote: so if anyone is to blame, it's BoB. And normal service is resumed... We should change our alliance name to Canada, then we can all sing "Blame Canada, blame Canada...". Which of the Canadian kids are you, Terrence or Lawrance? I was not a part of G or TRUST when the outpost changed hands the first time. I do remember BoB and ASCN and whatever friends the two of them invited camping down EC and blowing up TRUST ship yards, taking the station, and immediately giving it to ISS. I don't think the choice to give it to ISS was a BoB or an ASCN plan but, simply a "Well, we've got it. What the hell do we do with it now?" plan. At any rate, the deal was at gunpoint. I'm sure that ISS might understand it better if put in terms of AAA taking the station in Catch and giving it to IAC. IAC gives them 20 bil "to look good for the shareholders". Eventually, ISS would want that outpost back. As far as "The ISS outpost in Teneferis" I, at least, was always under the impression that it was an LV outpost, built and maintained by ISS.
Mariko San Saints Surrounded	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Cardassius Originally by: FireFoxx80 Wow, things are moving fast. Easy when Dreads + Carriers are invincible in KALI. There is so much less risk deploying them now. I think if you look at the ASCN lossboard you will see this statement is not quite correct :) Though i agree they are much tougher to kill now, all the pirate gankers are gonna want to get one.
Blitz'Krieg Caldari SkyMarshal Logistics	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Cardassius Originally by: FireFoxx80 Wow, things are moving fast. Easy when Dreads + Carriers are invincible in KALI. There is so much less risk deploying them now. I've been away five months and missed the changes .. could you give me a brief reason why this is, or point me at a thread that'll show me please?
Mariko San Saints Surrounded	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:27:00 - [96] Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Smoking Mirror Or maybe D2 should honor the deals its members make. Taking the money and then taking the station makes D2 a fraud. If they want the station, they should return the money they took for it. Or be known as a fraud. No more good guy chest-thumping for D2. Can't have it both ways. Nobody forced ISS to take the outpost, but BoB forced TRUST to let someone else take it, so if anyone is to blame, it's BoB. Poor D2, even in their finest moment someone has to go turn this onto a BoB thread
Mariko San Saints Surrounded	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:29:00 - [97] Originally by: Blitz'Krieg Originally by: Cardassius Originally by: FireFoxx80 Wow, things are moving fast. Easy when Dreads + Carriers are invincible in KALI. There is so much less risk deploying them now. I've been away five months and missed the changes .. could you give me a brief reason why this is, or point me at a thread that'll show me please? Basically all ships got a % boost in "hit points" and so with capital ships the boost was very great making them much harder to kill. Wow I am whoring this thread like a mofo
Ceratin ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:57:00 - [98] Quote: Poor D2, even in their finest moment someone has to go turn this onto a BoB thread This isnt a d2 thread so feel free to continue random tinfil hattery and pointless debating, we dont mind :P ------------ All hail! Leader of the pod brigade..
Fi T'Zeh Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:00:00 - [99] Originally by: Mariko San Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Smoking Mirror Or maybe D2 should honor the deals its members make. Taking the money and then taking the station makes D2 a fraud. If they want the station, they should return the money they took for it. Or be known as a fraud. No more good guy chest-thumping for D2. Can't have it both ways. Nobody forced ISS to take the outpost, but BoB forced TRUST to let someone else take it, so if anyone is to blame, it's BoB. Poor D2, even in their finest moment someone has to go turn this onto a BoB thread I can't imagine that D2 will want this remembered as their finest moment .... Playing EVE on easy mode since May 2003.
Turkantho Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.09 18:08:00 - [100] damn right Fi T'Zeh and what almost all people are forgeting here is that we attacked P-2TTL as well, even before we attacked EC, due to reinforcement timers EC was just the first to fall of those two stations. ________ been there, done that, got the t-shirt
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.09 18:53:00 - [101] Originally by: Mariko San Originally by: Blitz'Krieg Originally by: Cardassius Originally by: FireFoxx80 Wow, things are moving fast. Easy when Dreads + Carriers are invincible in KALI. There is so much less risk deploying them now. I've been away five months and missed the changes .. could you give me a brief reason why this is, or point me at a thread that'll show me please? Basically all ships got a % boost in "hit points" and so with capital ships the boost was very great making them much harder to kill. Wow I am whoring this thread like a mofo IIRC T1 ships got +50% HP, T2 ships got +25..30% and capital ships got +400%.
Cupdeez Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 19:13:00 - [102] Quote: edit: To clarify, I know D2 hit one station, while IAC and co hit another, but if D2 hadn't wanted to take back their old station, then I'd be surprised if IAC left it alone since they seem to be on quite the warpath against ISS now. I would like to point out a few things. IAC was after ISS but only in the South. The ISS station in the south was IAC's only target. (To hard to defend 2 systems so far apart) D2 took the ISS(North)station because they wanted so secure there boarders. The ISS station was an easy gateway into there home system. Now my View ISS does not belong owning control of any 0.0 space. Some people might say you ôcarebearö you killed an industry corp. One might respond if you canÆt defend your space in 0.0 then you should not be in 0.0. I know ISS has some big friends like LV, MC, and BOB but they can't always help or be the major power for someone elseÆs fight. The south and the north are both changing fast. BOB has flexed its muscles and now D2, RED, TFC, and IAC are following suit. Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip
Belid Hagen The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.09 19:59:00 - [103] why do people continue to list BoB as a friend and backer of ISS? they shoot us at every oppertunity, and we do the same (when we dont run :) )
Omega Bloodstone Battlestars Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 20:25:00 - [104] Originally by: Belid Hagen why do people continue to list BoB as a friend and backer of ISS? they shoot us at every oppertunity, and we do the same (when we dont run :) ) It has been proven, weather it be by payment or NAP, that Bob will come in at the end of a time of war, generally after attrition has set in, to win the day. This happened the last time FIX was being mauled by the Coilition at the time. Though I assume if not for payment that it was because of the strategic imbalance close to their region. Hostiles to close basically if FIX fell or they were paid off. Nothing against them, smart even, but they have also been known to just takes poeples space as well, even if a war has not previously been set forward for ****s and giggles. It is just assumed by many that they will eventually try and grab the headlines with all the conflict stemming from Curse/Catch/Great Wildlands ect regions. Just a matter of when, and if not...it's a first. Noteing they kinda did when they hired MC to come to the area. People just basing opinions around the table. who really knows...
Chin LoPan The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.09 21:05:00 - [105] Originally by: Master Spoonman D2 began a war upon ISS for insults such as when D2 fleet movement was leaked by members of ISS, a 'neutral' 0.0 entity. Oh God, if I hear this weak moral justification of this war one more time I'm going to hurl on my monitor. If it makes you feel "like the good guys" or some injured party to tell yourselves this, then go ahead. Originally by: Cupdeez D2 took the ISS(North)station because they wanted so secure there boarders. The ISS station was an easy gateway into there home system. Now there we go. Any D2 pilot using THAT as their rationale for the war, and not the above drivel, gains my respect. Why, oh why, in both EVE and for nations in RL, do we insist on rationalizing militaristic aggression so often with complete bull. EC was an easy target, and makes D2 stronger in the short run. Justify it that way and leave it at that, please.
Chin LoPan The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.09 21:05:00 - [106] Originally by: Master Spoonman D2 began a war upon ISS for insults such as when D2 fleet movement was leaked by members of ISS, a 'neutral' 0.0 entity. Oh God, if I hear this weak moral justification of this war one more time I'm going to hurl on my monitor. If it makes you feel "like the good guys" or some injured party to tell yourselves this, then go ahead. Originally by: Cupdeez D2 took the ISS(North)station because they wanted so secure there boarders. The ISS station was an easy gateway into there home system. Now there we go. Any D2 pilot using THAT as their rationale for the war, and not the above drivel, gains my respect. Why, oh why, in both EVE and for nations in RL, do we insist on rationalizing militaristic aggression so often with complete bull. EC was an easy target, and makes D2 stronger in the short run. Justify it that way and leave it at that, please.
OozoO Caldari Decadence. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.09 21:08:00 - [107] Originally by: Ceratin This isnt a d2 thread so feel free to continue random tinfil hattery and pointless debating, we dont mind :P I do! get out of my thread folks!
OozoO Caldari Decadence. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.09 21:08:00 - [108] Originally by: Ceratin This isnt a d2 thread so feel free to continue random tinfil hattery and pointless debating, we dont mind :P I do! get out of my thread folks!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.10 00:35:00 - [109] Originally by: Omega Bloodstone Originally by: Belid Hagen why do people continue to list BoB as a friend and backer of ISS? they shoot us at every oppertunity, and we do the same (when we dont run :) ) It has been proven, weather it be by payment or NAP, that Bob will come in at the end of a time of war, generally after attrition has set in, to win the day. This happened the last time FIX was being mauled by the Coilition at the time. Though I assume if not for payment that it was because of the strategic imbalance close to their region. Hostiles to close basically if FIX fell or they were paid off. Nothing against them, smart even, but they have also been known to just takes poeples space as well, even if a war has not previously been set forward for ****s and giggles. It is just assumed by many that they will eventually try and grab the headlines with all the conflict stemming from Curse/Catch/Great Wildlands ect regions. Just a matter of when, and if not...it's a first. Noteing they kinda did when they hired MC to come to the area. People just basing opinions around the table. who really knows... Look, seriously, I've been in ISS since right from the start. This BoB thing is really getting old. BoB aren't interested in ISS, beyond the idle curiousity of anyone in EVE. We had a deal in the early days, that got ISS some access to Period Basis. That was all well and good, but it fell apart. A whole lot of reasons, but ... well, the only time I've ever been to 'BoB space' was during the evacuation. It's possible members of BoB like what we do, and what we've done. Personally, I'd like to think so. But that's not really related to 'BoB' or anything else.
zykerx Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.11 17:29:00 - [110] Edited by: zykerx on 11/01/2007 17:26:26 how many dreads did d2 use vs iss ? heard somethingh about 110 ? nice fleet is that the biggest cap fleet a alliance has ? dunno how much others have ? geus will see soon enough
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.11 17:48:00 - [111] Originally by: Belid Hagen why do people continue to list BoB as a friend and backer of ISS? Looking from outsider's perspective (which I'm not but I can act like one): 1) ASCN+AXE+BoB+whatever blob EC-P8R. 2) BoB leaves in haste, ASCN gets blown up a bit in the process. 3) TRUST is forced by the gun (of BoB) to sell the EC- outpost to ISS. 4) Later on ISS starts the now infamous Calico project with LV. 5) BoB buys NAP Launcher II from TRUST's webshop and uses it on LV (or that's what at least these forums are claiming). 6) Things start blowing up again; LV comes to help ISS. People see this as altastic aid from BoB (wtf but whatever...) It's not very solid proof of anything, I admit that. The thing is though that people nowadays wrap their entire ship to tinfoil meaning that if you're a friend of A who is friend of B who is friend of C then you must be a friend of C too. If you want any real reasoning, imagine ISS for a moment as a true ally to BoB and what we know from BoB's planned cynonet thanks to the Kugutsumen. If ISS would still hold both EC-P8R and P-2TTL in North, BoB could've just push its main fleet to ROIR-Y (which afaik was BoB's weak point in their last Northern shooting fest) and then blob EC-P8R again. After that just secure P-2TTL and they could've cynoed a lot of ships to just about anywhere in northwest. From that standpoint it's a small miracle that ISS was allowed to operate for as long as it did. I will miss shooting you though...
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.11 17:48:00 - [112] Originally by: Belid Hagen why do people continue to list BoB as a friend and backer of ISS? Looking from outsider's perspective (which I'm not but I can act like one): 1) ASCN+AXE+BoB+whatever blob EC-P8R. 2) BoB leaves in haste, ASCN gets blown up a bit in the process. 3) TRUST is forced by the gun (of BoB) to sell the EC- outpost to ISS. 4) Later on ISS starts the now infamous Calico project with LV. 5) BoB buys NAP Launcher II from TRUST's webshop and uses it on LV (or that's what at least these forums are claiming). 6) Things start blowing up again; LV comes to help ISS. People see this as altastic aid from BoB (wtf but whatever...) It's not very solid proof of anything, I admit that. The thing is though that people nowadays wrap their entire ship to tinfoil meaning that if you're a friend of A who is friend of B who is friend of C then you must be a friend of C too. If you want any real reasoning, imagine ISS for a moment as a true ally to BoB and what we know from BoB's planned cynonet thanks to the Kugutsumen. If ISS would still hold both EC-P8R and P-2TTL in North, BoB could've just push its main fleet to ROIR-Y (which afaik was BoB's weak point in their last Northern shooting fest) and then blob EC-P8R again. After that just secure P-2TTL and they could've cynoed a lot of ships to just about anywhere in northwest. From that standpoint it's a small miracle that ISS was allowed to operate for as long as it did. I will miss shooting you though...
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.11 19:09:00 - [113] Thing is, as a neutral trade base they were not a threat to you, Ather - and those stations would have required a siege by BoB to take, which you could of disrupted. Now, you've taken the stations (and Cassini was never ever defensible in the long term, it was stupid to put it there in the first place), and BoB will begin their suege, if any, with you. More likely, they'll bypass and set up their OWN bases a few jumps up the line were it's a true bottleneck, leaving you with nothing but an expensive albatross which your pilots get killed trying to defend. Meanwhile, the locals who would also have chipped in to defend the stations from BoB are now going to be leaving the area, since you've removed their trade base. Oh, and BoB can cyno ships in ANYWAY, since you can't stop determined cloaked scouts. Strategic sense \| you. //Maya
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.11 19:27:00 - [114] Originally by: Maya Rkell Thing is, as a neutral trade base they were not a threat to you, Ather Yep, I was a threat to them. Do note that it was D2 who took those stations, not IRON. We enjoy our corner in Deklein even though we're not always there.
Ceratin ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.11 19:32:00 - [115] Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Maya Rkell Thing is, as a neutral trade base they were not a threat to you, Ather Yep, I was a threat to them. Do note that it was D2 who took those stations, not IRON. We enjoy our corner in Deklein even though we're not always there. Yeah... where have you guys been? you dont come out to play with us anymore sniff ------------ All hail! Leader of the pod brigade..*
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.11 19:42:00 - [116] Originally by: Ceratin Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Maya Rkell Thing is, as a neutral trade base they were not a threat to you, Ather Yep, I was a threat to them. Do note that it was D2 who took those stations, not IRON. We enjoy our corner in Deklein even though we're not always there. Yeah... where have you guys been? you dont come out to play with us anymore *sniff It's winter, North is cold so we're in South since it's really nice and warm in here. Don't worry though, I'll send you a nice postcard with a picture of exotic dancers and odd sea creatures and I may bring some presents for you when we come back. With much love and multiple <3 :s Ather
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.14 08:10:00 - [117] Edited by: Weirda on 14/01/2007 08:07:22 Originally by: James Lyrus Look, seriously, I've been in ISS since right from the start. This BoB thing is really getting old. BoB aren't interested in ISS, beyond the idle curiousity of anyone in EVE. We had a deal in the early days, that got ISS some access to Period Basis. That was all well and good, but it fell apart. A whole lot of reasons, but ... well, the only time I've ever been to 'BoB space' was during the evacuation. It's possible members of BoB like what we do, and what we've done. Personally, I'd like to think so. But that's not really related to 'BoB' or anything else. Originally by: Belid Hagen why do people continue to list BoB as a friend and backer of ISS? they shoot us at every oppertunity, and we do the same (when we dont run :) ) maybe because certain ISS are making attempt in thread to swing around someone else pendulum? Originally by: Nyphur ... We're currently discussing how to handle reimbursement to shareholders and if D2 had any honour they would recognise that they have just stolen shareholder property (of which BoB was a fairly big shareholder) and would contribute some isk toward reimbursing the shareholders. Regardless of whether or not D2 wants this to have been a clean cut "spoils of war" deal for them and a simple D2 vs ISS attack, it is not that simple. For example, with the share percentage ownership that BoB have in Cassini, D2 have just effectively nicked a few billion off them (unless they've sold the shares since then). I know that's a drop in the ocean for them but I wonder what they think of that. Another fact is that losing the outposts, while it may spook some member corps, will not ruin ISS as an organisation. Far from it, the ISSO IPO will not be harmed by it significantly as there are plenty of other places to trade to make the same level of profit. The ISS as an organisation is our asset and is what makes the ISS trade hub outposts worthwhile. Most of the outposts themselves are mediocre at best, placed in areas with little strategic benefit and poor natural resources. __ Weirda Join QotSA
Commander AllstarBu Badguys N Stuff	Posted - 2007.01.14 09:37:00 - [118] nice work d2! congrats
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.14 23:56:00 - [119] Originally by: Cardassius Originally by: FireFoxx80 Wow, things are moving fast. Easy when Dreads + Carriers are invincible in KALI. There is so much less risk deploying them now. No, they're only invincible in the hands of a capable alliance... just ask FIX.... loot from carrier: t1 armour hardeners, t2 mining drones... 6 battleships and 25 light support and boom no more thanatos.

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