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Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:00:00 - [61] I want my Tachyon Pulse please. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:08:00 - [62] Originally by: Thor Xian I want my Tachyon Pulse please. I have a BPO for sale, only 30 bil isk (freeform contract ftw!)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:43:00 - [63] Originally by: DarkElf I think it's balanced ok. besides, you ask how many minnie pilots have won i battle after they have run out of cap because their guns kept firing and i'd say it's a rare occasion. you see how long a tempest with no cap lasts against a b'thron. also as said before gallente get drones which altho can be popped they are essentially dmg without cap. i think amarr are the weak link here as usual. they get the crappy high cap usage and not much to balance that. but heh that's why i cross trained to gallente DE How does a tempest run out of cap against a Blaster Thron? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:49:00 - [64] Did you ever heard about armor repairers, shield bosters? Or about neuterer drones..? If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:50:00 - [65] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 08/01/2007 20:36:37 Originally by: Marcathonas Except... they do. All gallente ships have more cap than the minmatar of the same class, IIRC. Stop spewing this crap. I read this p.o.s. argument on these boards like every ***ing day for 3 years+ now. megathron: 4500 tempest: 4250 dominix: 4000 typhoon: 4000 The difference (whenever there is any difference at all) is so small that it's completely irrelevant. Gallante and Minmatar ships basicly have the same cap, cpu and grid. IIRC, battleships with larger capacitors generally have proportionately longer recharge times as well. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori* It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:55:00 - [66] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Did you ever heard about armor repairers, shield bosters? Or about neuterer drones..? Yes and how exactly is that going to make the tempest run out of cap? A tempest would have to be a fool, have terrible fittings, or terrible skills to run out of cap before a blasterthron. Now, they might explode first, which would stop them from winning the battle, but the reason that tempests dont win a lot of battles against blasterthrons after running out of cap is because the tempests run out of cap after the blastertrons. The question isnt balancing fighting a blasterthron against a tempest. Its balancing a blasterthron versus a domi and a tempest versus a domi. And yes being able to shoot when your cap is gone is a pretty nice bonus in that regard. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:30:00 - [67] A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :) Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ... Originally by: Radeberger If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Vathar A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :) Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ... how does a tempest run out of cap before a b-thron? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Thor Ba'aleron	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:51:00 - [69] Meh, I don't have any problem with Nos/Domis, but then again I haven't flown an active tanked ship into PvP since Castor. Capacitor Boosters are a must for any ship that uses cap in PvP, and they even the odds against Dominixes fairly well. If you are caldari, an Ewar scorpion can turn the tables with it's own 2 nos and jamming ability, at which point it's an uneven dps race between 5 mediums and 4 cruise VS 5 heavies. Rokhs should be passive tanked and probably don't care about being nossed, and something like a typohoon can easily get away. Amarr is probably hosed, but ffs what else is new?
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.09 16:45:00 - [70] Originally by: Spaced Skunk I also agree, maths does not win the fight, while good to know. If is was all about math it might as well be an in-browser java game. Many variables in a fight, chosen by the player and not the math, such as ship setups/ship choices/position/primary targets, just overall tactical play. You didn't understand what you replied to, at all. Perhaps cause my initial quote was cut off. "such as ship setups/ship choices/position/primary targets" That is exactly what I'm talking about. These variables is what is used in the math formula. Ship and setup you already pick in station to get to your advantage. Primary target is a desicion you make on the field, but it's also based on your setups. You pick the biggest danger to you first to make your variables in the math formula as good as possible. And position is about you being able to pilot your ship to do the same - and when you picked your setup initially you assumed that you could pilot your ship in a good way, no? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2007.01.09 22:17:00 - [71] Quote: projectiles have lower tracking and dps. Sorry, it's a little too late but you can compare a Mega Pulse T2 and a 800mm autocannons t2 please ... 800mm have a better tracking and damage for my without consumption of cap (don't forget the alone dmg em on long range and em/thermal for short/medium range). If you use these turrets for hunt agaisnt all others npc than blood/sansha, it's probably really better !!! Better tank (no cap use for turret) and you can choose damage ;)
Craven Loft	Posted - 2007.01.10 02:38:00 - [72] Part of the beauty of this game is the fact that things aren't completely balanced; that things are left up to chance and tactic as well as your personal play style. You can have a blaster set up but be ready to die if you should run into a NOSing ship. Thats the game. If you run out of cap, that too is part of the game. Whether its planned by the Dev's or not, whatever. There are instances where balancing needs to be addressed, no doubt (why, dear god, did i train Stealth bombers when they are neither stealth, nor good bombers, and are more modeled after the deadliness of a piece of drift wood in the ocean) but this thread seems to be mostly people complaining about the fact that they lost their ship and wish to blame the game and the world around them rather than their poor planning or just someone hunting someone w/ that particular set up. I do that, I do it often. I know what ships my set ups are good to kill and where my weaknesses lie. If I come across a NOS domi, I know I'm in trouble but a geddon I know is in some deep ****. Learn to move w/ the game and anticipate what your going against and you'll be able to play to the strenghts and weaknesses of both the game and other players and to your specific races. Thats what EvE is all about. You wanna play a balancing game, go play WOW, get your guy to lvl 60, get the uber epic armor and go fight the 4 trillion other lvl 60's w/ uber epic armor and click till your finger falls off. Thats not for me.
Xemas Rikal	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:43:00 - [73] Originally by: Craven Loft Part of the beauty of this game is the fact that things aren't completely balanced; that things are left up to chance and tactic as well as your personal play style. You can have a blaster set up but be ready to die if you should run into a NOSing ship. Thats the game. If you run out of cap, that too is part of the game. Whether its planned by the Dev's or not, whatever. There are instances where balancing needs to be addressed, no doubt (why, dear god, did i train Stealth bombers when they are neither stealth, nor good bombers, and are more modeled after the deadliness of a piece of drift wood in the ocean) but this thread seems to be mostly people complaining about the fact that they lost their ship and wish to blame the game and the world around them rather than their poor planning or just someone hunting someone w/ that particular set up. I do that, I do it often. I know what ships my set ups are good to kill and where my weaknesses lie. If I come across a NOS domi, I know I'm in trouble but a geddon I know is in some deep ****. Learn to move w/ the game and anticipate what your going against and you'll be able to play to the strenghts and weaknesses of both the game and other players and to your specific races. Thats what EvE is all about. You wanna play a balancing game, go play WOW, get your guy to lvl 60, get the uber epic armor and go fight the 4 trillion other lvl 60's w/ uber epic armor and click till your finger falls off. Thats not for me. I couldn't have said it better myself Craven.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.01.10 07:11:00 - [74] Originally by: Kirov VIII Quote: projectiles have lower tracking and dps. Sorry, it's a little too late but you can compare a Mega Pulse T2 and a 800mm autocannons t2 please ... 800mm have a better tracking and damage for my without consumption of cap (don't forget the alone dmg em on long range and em/thermal for short/medium range). If you use these turrets for hunt agaisnt all others npc than blood/sansha, it's probably really better !!! Better tank (no cap use for turret) and you can choose damage ;) actually pulse have a higher base dmg and a looooonger range a single pulse (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 45 dps with a 45km optimal a single 800mm (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 40 dps with around 7-8km optimal, at 30km the dps is 25 the energy cost is imo justified for pulse as, even factoring bonuses we end up with ACs that do a bit more damage (i'd average it at around 10%) but lasers keep a huge range advantage is a lot different with blasters that imo are a bit too good, they should have less range with t2 range ammo the discussion about lasers is different instead for beams/tachs, there i agree they need some love (as also arty :P) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 07:27:00 - [75] Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe I honestly think the solution to making lasers more worthwhile in pvp is to get more people to shield tank in pvp. I personally feel that the best solution is to make some of the midslot shield tanking modules lowslot modules instead. Just a thought. Good idea! Shield tanking was in DIRE need of BOOSTING! Oh wait, there IS already shield tanking LOWSLOT modules. Playing Caldari-Online as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore (aka. stupid).
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.10 08:31:00 - [76] Originally by: Ath Amon a single pulse (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 45 dps with a 45km optimal a single 800mm (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 40 dps with around 7-8km optimal, at 30km the dps is 25 Optimal on a megapulse II is 24km[cant get 45 without scorch and max skills or tracking enhancers/computers] Optimal on an 800mm II is 4.8km, cant get 7-8km without long range tech 1 ammo[barrage has no optimal boost last time i checked]. Of course, the 800m II's can be fitted with falloff rigs and have plenty of powergrid left[Especialy w/maelstrom] which the Megapulses cannot[needs RCU to be fit on an Abaddon even at max skills]. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.01.10 08:53:00 - [77] Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/01/2007 08:51:03 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ath Amon a single pulse (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 45 dps with a 45km optimal a single 800mm (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 40 dps with around 7-8km optimal, at 30km the dps is 25 Optimal on a megapulse II is 24km[cant get 45 without scorch and max skills or tracking enhancers/computers] Optimal on an 800mm II is 4.8km, cant get 7-8km without long range tech 1 ammo[barrage has no optimal boost last time i checked]. Of course, the 800m II's can be fitted with falloff rigs and have plenty of powergrid left[Especialy w/maelstrom] which the Megapulses cannot[needs RCU to be fit on an Abaddon even at max skills]. comparsion was with t2 range ammos, is also true that the "real" optimal, for 800mm, will not change but the dps loss due high faloff is so low for a couple of km that i think was more appropriate to extend it at 7-8km where the dps loss begins to be significant (probably was better to post the graph... but i'm too lazy atm ) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Exus Die Trying	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:07:00 - [78] saying that blasters have a better dps than autocanons is plain **** -this difference is really marginal -this difference can be used in a very few setups overall, the ACs are deffinetly better because they stick with a larger scale of type of setups/engagement blasters are good for ratting, EvE is at the NOS age. :P
Necroth	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:12:00 - [79] Originally by: Craven Loft Part of the beauty of this game is the fact that things aren't completely balanced; that things are left up to chance and tactic as well as your personal play style. You can have a blaster set up but be ready to die if you should run into a NOSing ship. Thats the game. If you run out of cap, that too is part of the game. Whether its planned by the Dev's or not, whatever. There are instances where balancing needs to be addressed, no doubt (why, dear god, did i train Stealth bombers when they are neither stealth, nor good bombers, and are more modeled after the deadliness of a piece of drift wood in the ocean) but this thread seems to be mostly people complaining about the fact that they lost their ship and wish to blame the game and the world around them rather than their poor planning or just someone hunting someone w/ that particular set up. I do that, I do it often. I know what ships my set ups are good to kill and where my weaknesses lie. If I come across a NOS domi, I know I'm in trouble but a geddon I know is in some deep ****. Learn to move w/ the game and anticipate what your going against and you'll be able to play to the strenghts and weaknesses of both the game and other players and to your specific races. Thats what EvE is all about. You wanna play a balancing game, go play WOW, get your guy to lvl 60, get the uber epic armor and go fight the 4 trillion other lvl 60's w/ uber epic armor and click till your finger falls off. Thats not for me. thats why a scanner is so usefull -------- Necroth
kill0rbunny Caldari Chimera Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:21:00 - [80] Originally by: Craven Loft Part of the beauty of this game is the fact that things aren't completely balanced; that things are left up to chance and tactic as well as your personal play style. You can have a blaster set up but be ready to die if you should run into a NOSing ship. Thats the game. If you run out of cap, that too is part of the game. Whether its planned by the Dev's or not, whatever. There are instances where balancing needs to be addressed, no doubt (why, dear god, did i train Stealth bombers when they are neither stealth, nor good bombers, and are more modeled after the deadliness of a piece of drift wood in the ocean) but this thread seems to be mostly people complaining about the fact that they lost their ship and wish to blame the game and the world around them rather than their poor planning or just someone hunting someone w/ that particular set up. I do that, I do it often. I know what ships my set ups are good to kill and where my weaknesses lie. If I come across a NOS domi, I know I'm in trouble but a geddon I know is in some deep **. Learn to move w/ the game and anticipate what your going against and you'll be able to play to the strenghts and weaknesses of both the game and other players and to your specific races. Thats what EvE is all about. You wanna play a balancing game, go play WOW, get your guy to lvl 60, get the uber epic armor and go fight the 4 trillion other lvl 60's w/ uber epic armor and click till your finger falls off. Thats not for me. Absolutely signed. EVE-+NLINE Supporter of T+TALHELLDEATH**
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:27:00 - [81] Originally by: Exus saying that blasters have a better dps than autocanons is plain **** -this difference is really marginal -this difference can be used in a very few setups overall, the ACs are deffinetly better because they stick with a larger scale of type of setups/engagement blasters are good for ratting, EvE is at the NOS age. :P What? Blasters have loads more DPS than autocannons. Heavy Pulses do more base damage than AC's by a good amount and Electrons do more damage than Heavy Pulses... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:29:00 - [82] Originally by: Ath Amon comparsion was with t2 range ammos, is also true that the "real" optimal, for 800mm, will not change but the dps loss due high faloff is so low for a couple of km that i think was more appropriate to extend it at 7-8km where the dps loss begins to be significant (probably was better to post the graph... but i'm too lazy atm ) editing again imo faloff rig is pretty useless for lasers, the energy weapon cap reduction or even the cap recharge rigs are waaaay more benefical fore the "offensive department" I meant that you cant stick weapon rigs on lasers due to powergrid issues[unless you downsize, and well, downsizing lasers isnt worth it] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:38:00 - [83] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/01/2007 19:03:34 Originally by: Dreez Having weapons that uses no cap is imo, a huge advantage. Arent you forgetting the superior dps of cap using weapons here? Its not like minnie can sit next to a gallente ship and out-tank them even with no cap use for guns. Simply because of the extreme dps output. Yes, they can. Case in point: I lost a 1v1 duel to a Maelstrom in a Hyperion. On TQ, with real bullets. Not on test. What it cost me: 500m for the bet, a very expensive Hyperion, and a little dent in my pride. But I learned quite a bit. My setup: Hyperion, 8x Neutron IIs, T2 MWD, 2x fleeting web, 20km scram, Heavy injector w/ 800s. 2x TRUE SANSHA large reps (1170 HP per cycle, something around 9.6 sec cycle time), DC II, EANM II, 2x Shadow Serpentis mag stabs (total damage mod on the Neutrons is around 10.00). All this fits if you use 3x grid rigs (ancillary current routers). I figure that I spent about 750m or so on this setup when I put it together. Rig prices and BS prices have come down a bit, but it's still pretty spendy. Getting to the point: the Mael had 8x 800mm II ACs, and no nos. He tanked all my damage, and then some. I never broke his tank. On top of all that, he did break my tank, and I was out of structure right about the time I was out of cap. My setup can't run the tank/guns at once without steadily losing cap. If I hadn't have run out of armor/structure, I would have run out of cap, and then died anyway. The Mael had 8 charges left and 100% cap when I died. The point is: when you don't have to share your cap with your tank and weapons, it's an unstoppable advantage. Every time. No exceptions. Do I want all weapons to use cap? No. I want the cap using weapons to have a significant enough advantage to be valuable. When a Mael can tank the full DPS of a max skilled Hype with Neutron IIs with faction mag stabs and break a tank that reps over 2200 raw HP every ten seconds or so requiring faction reps, I think that the devs need to take a good hard look at cap using weapons and what the real situation is. Blasters simply don't do enough DPS to warrent their cap use. Probably even more so with lasers. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:56:00 - [84] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Vathar A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :) Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ... how does a tempest run out of cap before a b-thron? a) i've never heard of a tempest with unlimited cap charges. have you? b) if it doesn't run outta cap then it's irrelevant c) in that case how long does a tempest last against a domi with ogre II's when it's run outta cap. again the answer is not long so doesn't make much differencce in 90% of engagements DE
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:59:00 - [85] Originally by: DarkElf Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Vathar A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :) Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ... how does a tempest run out of cap before a b-thron? a) i've never heard of a tempest with unlimited cap charges. have you? b) if it doesn't run outta cap then it's irrelevant c) in that case how long does a tempest last against a domi with ogre II's when it's run outta cap. again the answer is not long so doesn't make much differencce in 90% of engagements DE you forgot d) how do weapons that use cap stack up against those that don't? Answer: poorly. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:02:00 - [86] Yea, the Maelstrom is a peice of work, it is utterly devastating if you fly it like an Amarran ship. 8 x 800mm AC's XL Booster, Boost amp II, INV II, INV II, Injector, EM II 3 x Gyrostab II, DC II, Free slot for whatever you want. 3x Falloff rigs[2 can be tech 2] Falloff with Barrage caps at 49km[with 2 tech 2 rigs], 44 with tech 1 5-6 slot tank, full set of damage mods and ridiculous range with the AC's ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:05:00 - [87] Originally by: DarkElf Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Vathar A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :) Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ... how does a tempest run out of cap before a b-thron? a) i've never heard of a tempest with unlimited cap charges. have you? b) if it doesn't run outta cap then it's irrelevant c) in that case how long does a tempest last against a domi with ogre II's when it's run outta cap. again the answer is not long so doesn't make much differencce in 90% of engagements DE HOW DO I BASH THIS THROUGH YOUR TINY THICK SKULL. A TEMPEST CANNOT RUN OUT OF CAP BEFORE A BLASTERTHRON, BECAUSE THE BLASTERTHRON USES MORE CAP PER SECOND THAN THE TEMPEST AND THEY HAVE SIMILAR CAPACITOR SIZES. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:06:00 - [88] Not using cap is an obvious advantage due to nos...Lets see here. My zealot vs a dominix,i get within my pulse laser range get nossed and webbed and wait for myself to die. A vagabond(turrets dont use cap)vs a dominix,he gets within autocannon range gets nossed(possibly webbed if he wants to get within 10km)and KEEPS SHOOTING,although he might still die. Its the same with any noncap using frig cruiser destroyer or anything below a bc.... Above a bc the nos does less and less due to your cap recharge rate which means energy weapons become more and more usefull and the noncap using weapons(that do less dps)become less and less usefull,BUT that noncap using element is still there in any fight and helps alot in long fights. Now your all right,the problem with amarr(if there is any)is all of those stated,nos high em resists on armor etc etc...None of these hurt laser very much alone,but together makes them underpowered,but i believe amarr arent as overpowered as most people think and with the proper tactics and skills those problems can be overcome. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:07:00 - [89] Originally by: Exus saying that blasters have a better dps than autocanons is plain ** -this difference is really marginal -this difference can be used in a very few setups overall, the ACs are deffinetly better because they stick with a larger scale of type of setups/engagement blasters are good for ratting, EvE is at the NOS age. :P ehm actually the base difference in dps is quite huge speaking about base stats (again no bonuses or mods) with 2 range ammos a single neutron II do 52 dps vs 45 of megapulse II and 40 of 800mm II neutron will also outdamage the 800mm up to 25km with an optimal of around 13km and equal tracking (actually it track a biiiiiiit better, but let's say they are equal) it have also a better alpha... imo alpha doesn't mean much but, as rails user always says that alpha is uber and this balance the poor dps of arty i tought it was right to mention it these base stats actually mean that an AC to compete with a blaser in dps need ship dmg bonus... speaking about actual ships with 3 dmg mods and damage ammo we have for guns only hype: 1150dps abaddon: 930dps maelstrom: 830dps we can also factor in a less dmg mod for hype and abaddon due to fitting restriction (grid or cpu mod) and we have hype 2mod: 970 abaddon 2mod: 830 maelstrom 3mod: 830 still a huge difference and a very good base dps of almost 1k for a ship using a minimal number of slots... to do a comparsion the phoon withh 800mm/siege (minnie BS with highest close range dps) to reach a dps similar to hype needs 3 damage mods + 5 ogre T2 @Goumindong ahhh ok, but in the end i don't consider them that umbalanced, consider that the cap recharger rig doesn't use pg, the cap usage can require a RCU but given the higher range and good base damage i think is quite ok... (again for beams is different) Originally by:** Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:24:00 - [90] Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/01/2007 10:21:08 @Bellum Eternus maybe instead you should look at a previous post i made where i spoke about cap used to tank in comparsion to cap used for offence... basically the concept is... blasters: use cap to deal damage but require more cap to tank their damage ACs: use no cap to deal damage but require less cap to tank their damage you use more cap... the opponent need more cap to survive (if he can) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

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