Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

everything to do with a lack of mid slots.

Shamis

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

---

Originally by: Dreez

---

Having weapons that uses no cap is imo, a huge advantage.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/01/2007 19:03:34

Originally by: Dreez

---

Having weapons that uses no cap is imo, a huge advantage.

---

Arent you forgetting the superior dps of cap using weapons here? Its not like minnie can sit next to a gallente ship and out-tank them even with no cap use for guns. Simply because of the extreme dps output.

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/01/2007 19:03:34

Originally by: Dreez

---

Having weapons that uses no cap is imo, a huge advantage.

---

Arent you forgetting the superior dps of cap using weapons here? Its not like minnie can sit next to a gallente ship and out-tank them even with no cap use for guns. Simply because of the extreme dps output.

---

Originally by: Bazman

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/01/2007 19:03:34

Originally by: Dreez

---

Having weapons that uses no cap is imo, a huge advantage.

---

Arent you forgetting the superior dps of cap using weapons here? Its not like minnie can sit next to a gallente ship and out-tank them even with no cap use for guns. Simply because of the extreme dps output.

---

There is no extreme DPS, only marginally better DPS, for a massive imbalance in the amount of cap used. I see two ways to solve this: 1. Increase DPS on cap using weapons (lol, no) 2. Change the Controlled Bursts skill to give a bigger benefit.

From practical experience, Amarr and Gallente simply can't compete in a gank setup vs a nossing setup, only way to win that one is to fit nosses yourself so you can fuel your guns. And even then you'll barely get enough to run your guns.

---

Originally by: Tsanse Kinske

---

Originally by: Bazman

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/01/2007 19:03:34

Originally by: Dreez

---

Having weapons that uses no cap is imo, a huge advantage.

---

Arent you forgetting the superior dps of cap using weapons here? Its not like minnie can sit next to a gallente ship and out-tank them even with no cap use for guns. Simply because of the extreme dps output.

---

There is no extreme DPS, only marginally better DPS, for a massive imbalance in the amount of cap used. I see two ways to solve this: 1. Increase DPS on cap using weapons (lol, no) 2. Change the Controlled Bursts skill to give a bigger benefit.

From practical experience, Amarr and Gallente simply can't compete in a gank setup vs a nossing setup, only way to win that one is to fit nosses yourself so you can fuel your guns. And even then you'll barely get enough to run your guns.

---

Option 3: Fix NOS.

---

Originally by: Dreez

---

But the ships using
the weapontypes which needs cap, dont have superior cap to
make up for it..

---

Originally by: Dixon

---

Well this would be balanced if it weren't for NOS..

---

Originally by: Marcathonas

---

Except... they do. All gallente ships have more cap than the minmatar of the same class, IIRC.

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Originally by: Marcathonas

---

Except... they do. All gallente ships have more cap than the minmatar of the same class, IIRC.

---

Stop spewing this crap.
I read this p.o.s. argument on these boards like every ****ing day for 3 years+ now.

megathron: 4500
tempest: 4250

dominix: 4000
typhoon: 4000

The difference (whenever there is any difference at all) is so small that it's completely irrelevant.
Gallante and Minmatar ships basicly have the same cap, cpu and grid.

Yet when comparing guns;
blasters (and rails) use loads of cap, projectiles use none.
blasters (and rails) use ****loads more cpu, up to 75% more.
blasters use slightly more powergrid than autocannons (while arties use lots more grid than rails).

It's so totally messed up that it's nuts.

But on the other hand, and in reply to "AFAIK, no dev has done more than laugh off boosting lasers/hybrids or Controlled Bursts", the same devs managed to introduce these new rigs - with their attributes and stats decided by rolling a dice instead of doing any real balancing... So I guess we shouldn't be surprised :s

---

Originally by: Christopher Dalran

---

why do you think nos domi/vexors are so popular?

---

Originally by: Marcathonas

---

Btw, your numbers are wrong. Revelations cap upgrades ftw?

---

Originally by: Marcathonas

---

Ohnoez, blasters have harder fitting. They also do more damage. This is called balancing.

---

Originally by: Marcathonas

---

Btw, your numbers are wrong. Revelations cap upgrades ftw?

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

projectiles have lower tracking
Shamis

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

projectiles have lower tracking
Shamis

---

Let's dispell another myth while we're at it:

NO.
They don't.
Not when looking at blasters/autocannons.
k?

---

Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe

---

I honestly think the solution to making lasers more worthwhile in pvp is to get more people to shield tank in pvp. I personally feel that the best solution is to make some of the midslot shield tanking modules lowslot modules instead. Just a thought.

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Originally by: Christopher Dalran

---

why do you think nos domi/vexors are so popular?

---

That's the easiest question ever to answer.

1. About 33 months ago, TomB took his nerfbat and went berserk on the domi. Further, since RMR patch and enhanced in Kali, you can't fit a passive armor tank in small scale combat.
The result is that you can't fit any other module than nos/neut in the highs of a dominix.

2. Blasters has been constantly nerfed for about 30 months, until Tux gave them some poor excuse of a boost recently.


So all you could do as a gallante pilot was to fly a nos-domi.

---

Originally by: Ithildin

---

...or you could try the Abaddon. It's nowhere near as bad as some people make it out to be.

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

---

Quote:

---

READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.

---

Originally by: Ithildin

---

Btw, TomB didn't go berserk with nerfbat on Dominix.

---

Originally by: d'hofren

---

Come on, the nos domi is a geat small gang / solo ship and it is bloody cheap to use and loose.

---

Originally by: d'hofren

---

Edited by: d''hofren on 08/01/2007 21:07:31

Originally by: dalman

---

Originally by: Christopher Dalran

---

why do you think nos domi/vexors are so popular?

---

That's the easiest question ever to answer.

1. About 33 months ago, TomB took his nerfbat and went berserk on the domi. Further, since RMR patch and enhanced in Kali, you can't fit a passive armor tank in small scale combat.
The result is that you can't fit any other module than nos/neut in the highs of a dominix.

2. Blasters has been constantly nerfed for about 30 months, until Tux gave them some poor excuse of a boost recently.


So all you could do as a gallante pilot was to fly a nos-domi.

---

And the fact your Domi primary weapon system:

A) uses no cap at all
B) uses no fitting slots at all
C) Uses no grid at all
D) Uses no CPU at all

Allowing you to:

A) Fit a full rack of utility highs (nos, neut, etc)
B) Fit a huge tank which can be fuelled by said utility highs
D) Use all your mids for tackle or even more cap recharge, (now you can't fit ecm thank god).

Come on, the nos domi is a geat small gang / solo ship and it is bloody cheap to use and loose.

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

---

Originally by: dalman

---

As you are saying that blasters have so much higher fitting reqs cause they do a bit more damage, then there's no longer any reason for any difference in cap-use between them...

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Originally by: Ithildin

---

Btw, TomB didn't go berserk with nerfbat on Dominix.

---

Well, I was only referring to the grid stuff, which is what makes it impossible to fit turrets on it. That in turn made the turret bonus on the domi useless.

But yes, of course the change of the drone bonus from size to + one drone was good. Was that really done at the same time? Hmm, perhaps it was.

---

Originally by: Quarantine

---

Originally by: dalman

---

As you are saying that blasters have so much higher fitting reqs cause they do a bit more damage, then there's no longer any reason for any difference in cap-use between them...

---

Blasters have higher fitting requirements and higher cap usage because they do more dps. It's not only a "bit" more dps, and you should know that if you ever flew any gallente ship. And mostly blasters track better as autocannons, because gallente often have a tracking bonus on their ships. Don't compare weapons systems, compare the ships - I don't see any gallente blaster boat being in anyway underpowered at the moment, they all seem to work as intended. If you're running into cap problems after killing your first few targets, that's the price you pay for your dps and one of the few downsides that gallente have.

---

Originally by: Quarantine

---

Blasters have higher fitting requirements and higher cap usage because they do more dps. It's not only a "bit" more dps, and you should know that if you ever flew any gallente ship. And mostly blasters track better as autocannons, because gallente often have a tracking bonus on their ships. Don't compare weapons systems, compare the ships - I don't see any gallente blaster boat being in anyway underpowered at the moment, they all seem to work as intended. If you're running into cap problems after killing your first few targets, that's the price you pay for your dps and one of the few downsides that gallente have.

---

Originally by: Ithildin

---

I don't know what I'd object to more, the statement that the Hyperion work as intended or how it is intended to work. I generally go with the latter. In either case, the Hyperion doesn't have any tracking bonuses, nor does the Thorax (another top of the line for it's class ship). Nor does any of the T1 cruisers for that matter, nor the Brutix, Myrmidon, nor most of the frigates.
In fact, the list of ships with tracking bonus is rather short and contain mostly T2 ships.

---

Originally by: dalman

---

3. I hardly haven't flown a blasterthron for 2.5 years cause it's a piece of crap ship when combined with the crappyness of the blasters.

---

Quote:

---

As for the rest of your post, you are contradicting yourself.
gallente often have a tracking bonus on their ships (ie megathron)
= your argument for tracking.
but just as often minmatar has ROF and damage bonus on their ships (ie tempest)
= with your type of argumentation autocannons do more damage than blasters.

---

Originally by: Quarantine

---

Originally by: Ithildin

---

I don't know what I'd object to more, the statement that the Hyperion work as intended or how it is intended to work. I generally go with the latter. In either case, the Hyperion doesn't have any tracking bonuses, nor does the Thorax (another top of the line for it's class ship). Nor does any of the T1 cruisers for that matter, nor the Brutix, Myrmidon, nor most of the frigates.
In fact, the list of ships with tracking bonus is rather short and contain mostly T2 ships.

---

There's also Minnie ships with only a single damage bonus, yet whenever the blaster vs. autocannon debate comes up, people will compare the Tempest to the Megathron, so what's your point? If you're not happy about how the Dominix or Hyperion works with Blasters, then that deserves it's own whine thread - it's not a blaster issue.

And you aren't really complaining about the Myrmidon having a drone/rep bonus instead of drone/med hybrid tracking, are you?

---

Originally by: Diana Merris

---

Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

---

Originally by: Quarantine

---

Edited by: Quarantine on 08/01/2007 21:56:37

Originally by: dalman

---

3. I hardly haven't flown a blasterthron for 2.5 years cause it's a piece of crap ship when combined with the crappyness of the blasters.

---

So you don't have any experience on flying blasterthrons in revelations? And this is indeed a bought character.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As for the rest of your post, you are contradicting yourself.
gallente often have a tracking bonus on their ships (ie megathron)
= your argument for tracking.
but just as often minmatar has ROF and damage bonus on their ships (ie tempest)
= with your type of argumentation autocannons do more damage than blasters.

---

Some gallente ships, those with tracking bonuses, have superior tracking to Minmatar ships with autocannons without a bonus and have a dps advantage over minnie ships with double damage bonuses. A Megathron has better dps (also due to higher drone bay), better tracking, tighter fitting and more cap usage than a Tempest. The Tempest has advantages that make up for this to some degree, there is no need for further shifting the balance towards the Megathron here by boosting all blasters. Cap injected setups work well enough for the Mega, and if they don't for the Hyperion then that's (again) not a problem of blasters, but of the Hyperion.

---

Originally by: Ithildin

---

I just have to check, though. If a ship doesn't work well with (an intended) weapon, then it's not the weapon's fault, but the ship's fault. That is your argument, right?
By logical deduction, it can never be the weapon's fault.

---

Originally by: Quarantine

---

So you don't have any experience on flying blasterthrons in revelations?

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

projectiles have lower tracking
Shamis

---

Let's dispell another myth while we're at it:

NO.
They don't.
Not when looking at blasters/autocannons.
k?

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Combat in EVE is about math. It's not FPS game you know, where you aim and fire and so on...

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

Not sure if its always been that way. Back when I used to bother studying stats I think tracking always went amarr>gallent>minni

So perhaps blasters do need a tracking increase. But everything has to take t2 ammo into consideration.

425's still do track slightly better than 1400's, they have better DPS than 1400's AND they have MUCH more range than 1400's.

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

Surprisingly enough the ships that are the best for 1v1 are NOT usualy minmater, they are gallente, and that's because of drones + nos. Caldari might be good for an arranged 1v1, but the minute something goes wrong they get ganked because they turn slower than a bus.

The only real loser is amarr, and I still say the only reason they suck so bad is because they aren't made to us EW which is an essential part of the game. This lack of ballance is a lot smaller than it was however now that EW has gotten a bit of a nerf. And the abaddon looks like a great fleet ship.

I don't really even see the big deal with 1v1 balance anyway, where do you guys find 1v1's? I thought they died out in '05.

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

I disagree. I find that most combat is about timing, positioning, and anticipating the enemies next move. The math doesn't win fights (although its always good to know the math to rule out really bad setups).

---

Originally by: Christopher Dalran

---

Your sorta just looking at the tip of the ice berge here, eve has to be about the most complicated gae i've ever played and you cannot JUST look at cap usage between weapons (shoot you cant even just look at weapons) and expect to ever hope to come close to balancing things.

If i had to point a finger at any module most responsable to giving Cap independant weapons an advantage that is too large, it would have to be nos/energy neuts. Its not the fact they use no cap (because they do alot les dps, have poorer tracking, and in the case of projectiles bad optimal [but good falloff]) but more because a ship with non-cap using weapons can drain the other player's cap completly dry meaning they cant shoot or tank. If both people lose all their cap (easy to do if soemone decided to use neuts) and neither can tank then the one who does not need energy will win for obvious reasons.

The problem lies in that there is no effective way to shield your capacitor from being drained, it definitly shouldnt be protected by default but adding in modules that protect against cap draining would go a long way towards keeping stuff like that from happening. Why not add a MID SLOT module that must be activated to shield your cap from draining but must redirect power from your shields to shield the capacior and thus results in lower shield regen/max hp (from just fitting it, not from just activating) rates. Could range from 100% protection to protecting the last x% of your capicitor

Why hard on shield tankers? Because the shield tanking races (caldari and minmitar[most min ships]) are the ones that rely most heavily on the NON cap using weapons and we dont need to fix a problem by also boosting the group benefiting from the previous problem.

I think the only race that realy suffers from this is the amaar (Caldari has missiles, Min uses the projectile weapons, and gal has drones (why do you think nos domi/vexors are so popular?)

The best counter to nos ships right now would be sensor dampers + long range combat and trust me they die super fast and easy as long as you dont do EXACTLY what they want line flying in very close with blasters or pulse lasers and getting hit with Nos+webs.

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Originally by: Quarantine

---

Blasters have higher fitting requirements and higher cap usage because they do more dps. It's not only a "bit" more dps, and you should know that if you ever flew any gallente ship. And mostly blasters track better as autocannons, because gallente often have a tracking bonus on their ships. Don't compare weapons systems, compare the ships - I don't see any gallente blaster boat being in anyway underpowered at the moment, they all seem to work as intended. If you're running into cap problems after killing your first few targets, that's the price you pay for your dps and one of the few downsides that gallente have.

---

If that isn't a bought character you should know that:
1. I'm maxed out SP-wise to fly gallante battleships and one of the players that established the picture of the "fearsome blasterthron" in the earlier days.
2. I hardly use large blasters since RMR patch. They are quite crappy.
3. I hardly haven't flown a blasterthron for 2.5 years cause it's a piece of crap ship when combined with the crappyness of the blasters.

Did that answer you on that?

As for the rest of your post, you are contradicting yourself.
gallente often have a tracking bonus on their ships (ie megathron)
= your argument for tracking.
but just as often minmatar has ROF and damage bonus on their ships (ie tempest)
= with your type of argumentation autocannons do more damage than blasters.

Also, perhaps you didn't know... But ships doesn't have infinite CPU/grid.
If you want a tank on a blasterthron/hyperion, you can't fit neutrons cause of the much higher fitting reqs of blasters. And whoop de doo, there went the blaster damage advantage. But guess what? They're still using ****-loads of cap.
So the only way you can really use the so called huge damage of blasters is in complete gank-mode. Which isn't a very versatile setup to say the least...

---

Originally by: Ithildin

---

Change history is basically:
- Attempted to fix drone lag.
- Changed percentage to +500 metrics per level.
- Attempted to fix drone lag.
- Added 350mm Railguns.
- Fixed so that mining drones didn't crash people.
- Changed +500 metric drone bay to +1 drone controlled per level.
- More drone lag fixes. This time they actually work.
- (Thorax is no longer drone ship, Vexor is a drone ship, and both Vexor and Arbitrator has the +1 drone controlled per level)
- (Turrets now have signature resolutions, making it much harder hitting smaller ships with larger guns)
- A few more drone lag fixes, but using drones in gang combat is still treated as a criminal offence by all sides of the combat.
- Up until now, the Dominix was regarded as the WORST battleship. Worse than Typhoon, even. Sometimes classed as a cruiser.
- Nosferatus now GIVES capacitor to it's user instead of TAKING it.
- (long pause)
- People start using Dominix for more than mining.
- ECM re/unbalance
- Dominix now sell at marginal profit (BPO being very common).
- Drone rebalance, drones now come only in swarms of 5 (except on a VERY rare faction cruiser)
- People start whining about the Dominix.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

projectiles have lower tracking and dps.

---

Originally by: Dillius Archania

---

Noone's brought up the Amarr side to all of this in a while. What are peoples beliefs as to the condition of lasers at this time?

---

Originally by: Audri Fisher

---

18 pg for the biggest small laser? wtf? even with ammar having much better pg, and lots of lows to fit power upgrades Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

I whine about having to use up all of my lows to fit 150 mm tech II on a cormy, but is it even possible on the ammar destroyer?
That's what I have to say about the whole ammar side of things.
You cannot credibly argue about damge amount/type/cap usage, until you can actualy fit the damn thing.

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Combat in EVE is about math. It's not FPS game you know, where you aim and fire and so on...

---

I disagree. I find that most combat is about timing, positioning, and anticipating the enemies next move. The math doesn't win fights (although its always good to know the math to rule out really bad setups).

---

Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Combat in EVE is about math. It's not FPS game you know, where you aim and fire and so on...

---

I disagree. I find that most combat is about timing, positioning, and anticipating the enemies next move. The math doesn't win fights (although its always good to know the math to rule out really bad setups).

---

iam with shamis here, the math is before the fight. Like dps output, range abilitie and as soon as u start fighting ur math should already be done.

About the OP well imo the Amarr have a huge problem with fitting two rcu for their weapons on apo while mimatar need only one and gallente need none. And tbh i think with having all the weapons the same type eve would become quiet boring. Cause checking those weapon types and have their pro and contras u probally end up with something like, its different but nor is over/underpowerd.

Artis - Alphastrike/no cap - small mag and crappy dps
Hybrid - DPS/range - cap usage no alphastrike
Lasers - WTF different colours/Alphastrike and dps for using loads of cap
Missles - Alphastrike/no range problems (0-160kms)/no capusage - flight time

---

Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1

---

Lasers - WTF different colours/Alphastrike and dps for using loads of cap

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1

---

Lasers - WTF different colours/Alphastrike and dps for using loads of cap

---

Ermm..about the alphastrike - the only lasers which do that are tachyons, the other lasers have ROFs more similar to rails. At it only becomes close to that of arties on the abaddon due to it's damage bonus, on the geddon and apoc their alpha is between that of arties and rails.

Wouldn't call it a racial characteristic due to this.

---

Originally by: Thor Xian

---

I want my Tachyon Pulse please.

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

I think it's balanced ok. besides, you ask how many minnie pilots have won i battle after they have run out of cap because their guns kept firing and i'd say it's a rare occasion. you see how long a tempest with no cap lasts against a b'thron.

also as said before gallente get drones which altho can be popped they are essentially dmg without cap.

i think amarr are the weak link here as usual. they get the crappy high cap usage and not much to balance that. but heh that's why i cross trained to gallente

DE

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Edited by: dalman on 08/01/2007 20:36:37

Originally by: Marcathonas

---

Except... they do. All gallente ships have more cap than the minmatar of the same class, IIRC.

---

Stop spewing this crap.
I read this p.o.s. argument on these boards like every ****ing day for 3 years+ now.

megathron: 4500
tempest: 4250

dominix: 4000
typhoon: 4000

The difference (whenever there is any difference at all) is so small that it's completely irrelevant.
Gallante and Minmatar ships basicly have the same cap, cpu and grid.

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

---

Did you ever heard about armor repairers, shield bosters? Or about neuterer drones..?

---

Originally by: Radeberger

---

If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts

---

Originally by: Vathar

---

A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :)

Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ...

---

Originally by: Spaced Skunk

---

I also agree, maths does not win the fight, while good to know. If is was all about math it might as well be an in-browser java game. Many variables in a fight, chosen by the player and not the math, such as ship setups/ship choices/position/primary targets, just overall tactical play.

---

Quote:

---

projectiles have lower tracking and dps.

---

Originally by: Craven Loft

---

Part of the beauty of this game is the fact that things aren't completely balanced; that things are left up to chance and tactic as well as your personal play style. You can have a blaster set up but be ready to die if you should run into a NOSing ship. Thats the game. If you run out of cap, that too is part of the game. Whether its planned by the Dev's or not, whatever.

There are instances where balancing needs to be addressed, no doubt (why, dear god, did i train Stealth bombers when they are neither stealth, nor good bombers, and are more modeled after the deadliness of a piece of drift wood in the ocean) but this thread seems to be mostly people complaining about the fact that they lost their ship and wish to blame the game and the world around them rather than their poor planning or just someone hunting someone w/ that particular set up. I do that, I do it often. I know what ships my set ups are good to kill and where my weaknesses lie. If I come across a NOS domi, I know I'm in trouble but a geddon I know is in some deep ****. Learn to move w/ the game and anticipate what your going against and you'll be able to play to the strenghts and weaknesses of both the game and other players and to your specific races. Thats what EvE is all about. You wanna play a balancing game, go play WOW, get your guy to lvl 60, get the uber epic armor and go fight the 4 trillion other lvl 60's w/ uber epic armor and click till your finger falls off. Thats not for me.

---

Originally by: Kirov VIII

---

Quote:

---

projectiles have lower tracking and dps.

---

Sorry, it's a little too late but you can compare a Mega Pulse T2 and a 800mm autocannons t2 please ...

800mm have a better tracking and damage for my without consumption of cap (don't forget the alone dmg em on long range and em/thermal for short/medium range).
If you use these turrets for hunt agaisnt all others npc than blood/sansha, it's probably really better !!! Better tank (no cap use for turret) and you can choose damage ;)

---

Originally by: Diana Merris

---

Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

---

Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe

---

I honestly think the solution to making lasers more worthwhile in pvp is to get more people to shield tank in pvp. I personally feel that the best solution is to make some of the midslot shield tanking modules lowslot modules instead. Just a thought.

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

a single pulse (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 45 dps with a 45km optimal

a single 800mm (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 40 dps with around 7-8km optimal, at 30km the dps is 25

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

a single pulse (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 45 dps with a 45km optimal

a single 800mm (no rof, dmg, damage mods) do 40 dps with around 7-8km optimal, at 30km the dps is 25

---

Optimal on a megapulse II is 24km[cant get 45 without scorch and max skills or tracking enhancers/computers]

Optimal on an 800mm II is 4.8km, cant get 7-8km without long range tech 1 ammo[barrage has no optimal boost last time i checked].

Of course, the 800m II's can be fitted with falloff rigs and have plenty of powergrid left[Especialy w/maelstrom] which the Megapulses cannot[needs RCU to be fit on an Abaddon even at max skills].

---

Originally by: Diana Merris

---

Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

---

Originally by: Craven Loft

---

Part of the beauty of this game is the fact that things aren't completely balanced; that things are left up to chance and tactic as well as your personal play style. You can have a blaster set up but be ready to die if you should run into a NOSing ship. Thats the game. If you run out of cap, that too is part of the game. Whether its planned by the Dev's or not, whatever.

There are instances where balancing needs to be addressed, no doubt (why, dear god, did i train Stealth bombers when they are neither stealth, nor good bombers, and are more modeled after the deadliness of a piece of drift wood in the ocean) but this thread seems to be mostly people complaining about the fact that they lost their ship and wish to blame the game and the world around them rather than their poor planning or just someone hunting someone w/ that particular set up. I do that, I do it often. I know what ships my set ups are good to kill and where my weaknesses lie. If I come across a NOS domi, I know I'm in trouble but a geddon I know is in some deep ****. Learn to move w/ the game and anticipate what your going against and you'll be able to play to the strenghts and weaknesses of both the game and other players and to your specific races. Thats what EvE is all about. You wanna play a balancing game, go play WOW, get your guy to lvl 60, get the uber epic armor and go fight the 4 trillion other lvl 60's w/ uber epic armor and click till your finger falls off. Thats not for me.

---

Originally by: Craven Loft

---

Part of the beauty of this game is the fact that things aren't completely balanced; that things are left up to chance and tactic as well as your personal play style. You can have a blaster set up but be ready to die if you should run into a NOSing ship. Thats the game. If you run out of cap, that too is part of the game. Whether its planned by the Dev's or not, whatever.

There are instances where balancing needs to be addressed, no doubt (why, dear god, did i train Stealth bombers when they are neither stealth, nor good bombers, and are more modeled after the deadliness of a piece of drift wood in the ocean) but this thread seems to be mostly people complaining about the fact that they lost their ship and wish to blame the game and the world around them rather than their poor planning or just someone hunting someone w/ that particular set up. I do that, I do it often. I know what ships my set ups are good to kill and where my weaknesses lie. If I come across a NOS domi, I know I'm in trouble but a geddon I know is in some deep ****. Learn to move w/ the game and anticipate what your going against and you'll be able to play to the strenghts and weaknesses of both the game and other players and to your specific races. Thats what EvE is all about. You wanna play a balancing game, go play WOW, get your guy to lvl 60, get the uber epic armor and go fight the 4 trillion other lvl 60's w/ uber epic armor and click till your finger falls off. Thats not for me.

---

Originally by: Exus

---

saying that blasters have a better dps than autocanons is plain ****
-this difference is really marginal
-this difference can be used in a very few setups

overall, the ACs are deffinetly better because they stick with a larger scale of type of setups/engagement
blasters are good for ratting, EvE is at the NOS age. :P

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

comparsion was with t2 range ammos, is also true that the "real" optimal, for 800mm, will not change but the dps loss due high faloff is so low for a couple of km that i think was more appropriate to extend it at 7-8km where the dps loss begins to be significant

(probably was better to post the graph... but i'm too lazy atm )

editing again
imo faloff rig is pretty useless for lasers, the energy weapon cap reduction or even the cap recharge rigs are waaaay more benefical fore the "offensive department"

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/01/2007 19:03:34

Originally by: Dreez

---

Having weapons that uses no cap is imo, a huge advantage.

---

Arent you forgetting the superior dps of cap using weapons here? Its not like minnie can sit next to a gallente ship and out-tank them even with no cap use for guns. Simply because of the extreme dps output.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Vathar

---

A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :)

Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ...

---

how does a tempest run out of cap before a b-thron?

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Vathar

---

A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :)

Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ...

---

how does a tempest run out of cap before a b-thron?

---

a) i've never heard of a tempest with unlimited cap charges. have you?

b) if it doesn't run outta cap then it's irrelevant

c) in that case how long does a tempest last against a domi with ogre II's when it's run outta cap. again the answer is not long so doesn't make much differencce in 90% of engagements

DE

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Vathar

---

A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :)

Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ...

---

how does a tempest run out of cap before a b-thron?

---

a) i've never heard of a tempest with unlimited cap charges. have you?

b) if it doesn't run outta cap then it's irrelevant

c) in that case how long does a tempest last against a domi with ogre II's when it's run outta cap. again the answer is not long so doesn't make much differencce in 90% of engagements

DE

---

Originally by: Exus

---

saying that blasters have a better dps than autocanons is plain ****
-this difference is really marginal
-this difference can be used in a very few setups

overall, the ACs are deffinetly better because they stick with a larger scale of type of setups/engagement
blasters are good for ratting, EvE is at the NOS age. :P

---

Originally by: Diana Merris

---

Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

---

Originally by: Diana Merris

---

Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Vathar

---

A tempest running out of cap will do fine against a blasterthron ... if said B-thron is also cap dead :)

Neuts work better on minnie ships than Nos ...

---

how does a tempest run out of cap before a b-thron?

---

a) i've never heard of a tempest with unlimited cap charges. have you?

b) if it doesn't run outta cap then it's irrelevant

c) in that case how long does a tempest last against a domi with ogre II's when it's run outta cap. again the answer is not long so doesn't make much differencce in 90% of engagements

DE

---

HOW DO I BASH THIS THROUGH YOUR TINY THICK SKULL.

A TEMPEST CANNOT RUN OUT OF CAP BEFORE A BLASTERTHRON, BECAUSE THE BLASTERTHRON USES MORE CAP PER SECOND THAN THE TEMPEST AND THEY HAVE SIMILAR CAPACITOR SIZES.

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

hype: 1150dps
abaddon: 930dps
maelstrom: 830dps

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/01/2007 10:21:08
@Bellum Eternus

maybe instead you should look at a previous post i made where i spoke about cap used to tank in comparsion to cap used for offence...

basically the concept is...

blasters: use cap to deal damage but require more cap to tank their damage

ACs: use no cap to deal damage but require less cap to tank their damage

you use more cap... the opponent need more cap to survive (if he can)

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

a) if you want to insult someone then come do it in person in game or out i don't mind which you little kid.

b) the mega pilot does a lot more dps than the tempest so the pest will be repping at a much faster rate so will actually use more cap. also ur not talking about setup differences. the mega might have 2 nos and maybe pest 1. there's many different fadctors involved it's not just something that is the same every time.

the fact that ur saying a pest will never run out of cap to a mega is surprising but if u had read my post then u'd know that was my whole point. pests very rarely run out of cap.

next time u reply show a little respect and stop ur stupid insults on the forums or i'll simply get them removed.


DE

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

I think it's balanced ok. besides, you ask how many minnie pilots have won i battle after they have run out of cap because their guns kept firing and i'd say it's a rare occasion. you see how long a tempest with no cap lasts against a b'thron.

also as said before gallente get drones which altho can be popped they are essentially dmg without cap.

i think amarr are the weak link here as usual. they get the crappy high cap usage and not much to balance that. but heh that's why i cross trained to gallente

DE

---

How does a tempest run out of cap against a Blaster Thron?

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

I think it's balanced ok. besides, you ask how many minnie pilots have won i battle after they have run out of cap because their guns kept firing and i'd say it's a rare occasion. you see how long a tempest with no cap lasts against a b'thron.

also as said before gallente get drones which altho can be popped they are essentially dmg without cap.

i think amarr are the weak link here as usual. they get the crappy high cap usage and not much to balance that. but heh that's why i cross trained to gallente

DE

---

How does a tempest run out of cap against a Blaster Thron?

---

Originally by: Diana Merris

---

Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

---

Originally by: Diana Merris

---

Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/01/2007 11:48:00
@Dixon

the numbers where from a kali NB's spreadsheet so it should be quite accurate, if yours are from a recent version of NB spreadsheet too let me know that i will update mine

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

if in my 1.1k dps gankphoon i face a tank able to sustain 1k dps (so a good one) i will do a real dps of 100

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

1) The Megathron will kill the tempest long before the tempest runs out of cap from repping. You cant tank that type of damage without a dedicated tank setup[a ridiculous tank setup]. You cant tank the damage a Tempest puts out without a dedicated tank setup either.

2) The only setups worth talking about are similar setups, yea the megathron might be running highs full of NOS, but such a setup is stupid when comparing the cap use of blasters versus autocannons.

3) The tempest has more "free slots" for NOS than a Megathron does.

4) The question is comparing the cap use of the autocannons vs blasters so the question of running out of cap is intimatly important to the discussion.

---

Originally by: Sir Bart

---

Just checked the numbers so I wouldn't be talking out my butt:
dmg mod / rof / activation cost
800mm Rep. Art. 2.59 / 7.88 / 0
Neutron Bls Cann. 3.5 / 7.88 / 18.2

3.5 / 2.59 = 1.35

So a neutron blaster does 35% more dps than an 800mm repeating artillary. It's quite a substancial increase. If you prioritize dps like I do, you'd use neutrons every time.

It sucks to lose because you god nos'd (and it will happen often if you're using t1 ammo). It's possible to tank all dps even from t2 ammo, it's just rare to run into a tank that strong. (Like farjung's vindicator setup could tank around 1000 dps iirc).

-Bart

---

Originally by: Sir Bart

---

Just checked the numbers so I wouldn't be talking out my butt:
dmg mod / rof / activation cost
800mm Rep. Art. 2.59 / 7.88 / 0
Neutron Bls Cann. 3.5 / 7.88 / 18.2

3.5 / 2.59 = 1.35

So a neutron blaster does 35% more dps than an 800mm repeating artillary. It's quite a substancial increase. If you prioritize dps like I do, you'd use neutrons every time.

It sucks to lose because you god nos'd (and it will happen often if you're using t1 ammo). It's possible to tank all dps even from t2 ammo, it's just rare to run into a tank that strong. (Like farjung's vindicator setup could tank around 1000 dps iirc).

-Bart

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

---

Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

I think it's balanced ok. besides, you ask how many minnie pilots have won i battle after they have run out of cap because their guns kept firing and i'd say it's a rare occasion. you see how long a tempest with no cap lasts against a b'thron.

also as said before gallente get drones which altho can be popped they are essentially dmg without cap.

i think amarr are the weak link here as usual. they get the crappy high cap usage and not much to balance that. but heh that's why i cross trained to gallente

DE

---

How does a tempest run out of cap against a Blaster Thron?

---

i heard that modules like armor repair, webber, scrambler, hardeners and damage control need cap, and even with 2 nos u run out of cap, but thats mostly a mistake of cap booster mismanagment

---

Originally by: DarkElf

---

Your absolutely right it's very unlikely that situation will happen unless the pest is dumb and not injected.

Which is exactly my point btw. the pests weapons not using cap isn't that much of a big deal compared to gallente as most minnie ships will not run out of cap unless they are gonna die anyway and for the extra dps that blasters have ove ac's i think this is balanced.

one area that the cap usage issue really comes into play is with ceptors and af's. nos is a frig killer but a wolf for example can still be very effective with 0 cap where as amarr or gallente's are pretty much dead in the water after a heavy nos or 2 is on them.

i think everyone here is coming to the same conclusion. gallente/minnie is balanced ok to for cap/dmg, caldari is mmm well caldari and amarr suck

DE

---

Originally by: Dixon

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/01/2007 11:48:00
@Dixon

the numbers where from a kali NB's spreadsheet so it should be quite accurate, if yours are from a recent version of NB spreadsheet too let me know that i will update mine

---

They are, you should probably update.

---

Originally by: Dixon

---

Originally by: Ath Amon

---

if in my 1.1k dps gankphoon i face a tank able to sustain 1k dps (so a good one) i will do a real dps of 100

---

Yes but the low-dps weapons (missiles and projectiles) still have the advantage of choosing their damage types (even if projectiles have a more limited choice), this can result in a lot higher dps versus most tanks.

---

Originally by: Diana Merris

---

Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".

---

Originally by: Dixon

---

Originally by: Sir Bart

---

dmg mod / rof / activation cost
800mm Rep. Art. 2.59 / 7.88 / 0
Neutron Bls Cann. 3.5 / 7.88 / 18.2

3.5 / 2.59 = 1.35

---

Those numbers are a bit off:
800mm Rep. Art. 2.695 / 7.88 / 0
Neutron Bls Cann. 3.5 / 7.88 / 18.2

and you have to account for the bonuses, 25% damage is not the same dps increase as 25% RoF. But the difference is still about 20% in favor of blasters.

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Originally by: Sir Bart

---

Just checked the numbers so I wouldn't be talking out my butt:
dmg mod / rof / activation cost
800mm Rep. Art. 2.59 / 7.88 / 0
Neutron Bls Cann. 3.5 / 7.88 / 18.2

3.5 / 2.59 = 1.35

So a neutron blaster does 35% more dps than an 800mm repeating artillary. It's quite a substancial increase. If you prioritize dps like I do, you'd use neutrons every time.

It sucks to lose because you god nos'd (and it will happen often if you're using t1 ammo). It's possible to tank all dps even from t2 ammo, it's just rare to run into a tank that strong. (Like farjung's vindicator setup could tank around 1000 dps iirc).

-Bart

---

now see if that 35% or so is enough to run the target's cap dry before you yourself run out of cap and tank. Fast forward: it won't.

---

Originally by: Sir Bart

---

Originally by: Dixon

---

Originally by: Sir Bart

---

dmg mod / rof / activation cost
800mm Rep. Art. 2.59 / 7.88 / 0
Neutron Bls Cann. 3.5 / 7.88 / 18.2

3.5 / 2.59 = 1.35

---

Those numbers are a bit off:
800mm Rep. Art. 2.695 / 7.88 / 0
Neutron Bls Cann. 3.5 / 7.88 / 18.2

and you have to account for the bonuses, 25% damage is not the same dps increase as 25% RoF. But the difference is still about 20% in favor of blasters.

---

Just double checked my numbers and you're correct on the values; however, you don't take bonuses into account, we're comparing guns, not ships.

Correct difference is 29.8%

-Bart

---

Originally by: Cmdr Sy

---

So here is the state of Amarr tech. Nos, plate, EANM and a tracking disruptor - pick two out of four and counter all setups.

---

Originally by: dalman

---

Edited by: dalman on 08/01/2007 20:36:37

Originally by: Marcathonas

---

Except... they do. All gallente ships have more cap than the minmatar of the same class, IIRC.

---

Stop spewing this crap.
I read this p.o.s. argument on these boards like every ****ing day for 3 years+ now.

megathron: 4500
tempest: 4250

dominix: 4000
typhoon: 4000

---

Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa

---

Edited by: Shan''Talasha Mea''Questa on 15/01/2007 20:52:12

Originally by: dalman

---

Edited by: dalman on 08/01/2007 20:36:37

Originally by: Marcathonas

---

Except... they do. All gallente ships have more cap than the minmatar of the same class, IIRC.

---

Stop spewing this crap.
I read this p.o.s. argument on these boards like every ****ing day for 3 years+ now.

megathron: 4500
tempest: 4250

dominix: 4000
typhoon: 4000

---

Cap has been increased on all ships, but I'd rather look at the realistic figures and compare both Cap Size and Cap Recharge rate.

Unmodified & and not counting "peak recharge":

Megathron: 5625/1154.88 Sec. -> 4.871 cap/sec
Tempest: 5312/1154.88 Sec. -> 4.600 cap/sec

Dominix: 5000/1087.50 Sec. -> 4.598 cap/sec
Typhoon: 5000/1087.50 Sec. -> 4.598 cap/sec

Best way to deal with this seems to be lowering cap-usage on Hybrids. Capacitors seem pretty balanced already.

Edit: Spelling.

---

Quote:

---

Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?

---

Quote:

---

jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag

---

Originally by: Dixon

---

Comparing the guns without using the bonuses isn't a fair comparison. Every single minmatar ship receives that RoF bonus and all gallente blasterships get that damage bonus, to compare without the bonuses is like comparing laser cap usage before the 10% per level reduction.

---

Originally by: Sir Bart

---

Originally by: Dixon

---

Comparing the guns without using the bonuses isn't a fair comparison. Every single minmatar ship receives that RoF bonus and all gallente blasterships get that damage bonus, to compare without the bonuses is like comparing laser cap usage before the 10% per level reduction.

---

It a fair comparison of guns. My point is that comparing ships simply by looking at the damage their guns do and the amount of cap they consume is not a fair comparison. There's a lot more to a ship than it's weaponry.

---

Originally by: Sir Bart

---

So, comparing ships, requires many many factors, comparing guns, requires only looking at the attributes of those guns. It's too bad that some devs think the way you do because beams and rails are identical if you take ship bonuses on a Apoc and Megathron (same dps, same tracking, mega has more range, apoc uses more cap)
-Bart

---

Originally by: Cmdr Sy

---

So here is the state of Amarr tech. Nos, plate, EANM and a tracking disruptor - pick two out of four and counter all setups.

---