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Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.01.15 20:06:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Karlemgne on 15/01/2007 20:03:08
Furthermore, if you were to try these tactics every day at the same gate, some alliance or corp would adapt, and wipe you all.
I suppose you even consider yourself "superior" to the 'newb who'd pay for your course(sic)'.
I never said this. And yes, you claim to be a school, so I did, in fact, at some point give you enough credit to call your "class" a "course." These words are interchangable, friend, depending on where you live, so you can dispense with the "(sic.)"
After going through our course, that 'newb' will be much better prepared to destroy your "big bad battleship".
I don't normally fly Battleships, though I do sometimes to camp gates. Having said that,a Battleship kitted by me could pop any one of your "newb" characters in their tech one frigs. Again, they aren't prepared to do anything of the sort, unless there are 15 of them, which isn't realistic.
And by the way, I'm sure such an experienced and bad-ass pilot such as yourself has a 100% success record, never lost a ship to an enemy, etc...
Everyone loses ships in this game, that is what makes it fun. And for the record, I never called myself a "badass" pilot. All I said was, intially, that the best way to "train" your pvp skills in this game is to engage in pvp. Start small and work your way up. Join a pirate or an anti-pirate corp. You will learn very quickly, and what you really need to know. All without paying a dime in isk to a school who teaches you pvp for 2 hours then has you sit in a giant frig blob at a 0.0 gate.
Of course we will suffer some losses, but IIRC, that battleship ended up dying to us later and dropped a couple of faction smartbombs, alone paying for more than what he/she/it destroyed.
You do recal correctly. And if I recal correctly, the pilot who made that video expected to die all along. It was a suicide mission to grief you and your school, which in and of itself is not a noble thing to do. It does, however, point out the limitations of your school, and your thinking, which is why I mentioned it.
Did we lose more ships? Yes. Did he/she/it lose much more ISK? Yes. Do I consider that class to be a success? Most certainly.
I imagine, since you are doing this "for profit," that you consider any class where you've made a few hundred million isk of newbs who can't afford it a "success," no matter how many of them die, or who you kill.
Please refrain from posting your uninformed opinions regarding our classes unless you have specifically and personally had a chance to fly with or against us.
My opinion is only somewhat uninformed. I base my opinion on my own 8 months in eve as a pirate (from day one mind you.) I couple this with the video of your school, and what you, and your members have said your cirriculum to be.
Numbers (ISK) speak volumes, and to date AGONY is very very ahead of our opponents in the ISK-destroyed game.
Who are your opponents? If you want to do a side by side of "isk" destroyed, I'm sure there are many alliances, pirate corps, merc corps, etc who have you beat, friend. Or is this just heavy winded posturing?
To our potential customers/students. Take a look at our site, join our chat channel, talk to our pilots and to the pilots that we've flown against, and decide for yourself if you think our classes will be worth your time and ISK.
I recomend you do the same. Then look at who critiques them here, and elsewhere. As I've said in the past, I have no doubt that you will learn something of utility by flying with these guys. Whether or not its worth your time and isk is another story. I'm inclined to say no, and have given you free alternatives. In the end, its up to you how you want to spend your time and isk.
-Karlemgne
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Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.01.15 20:16:00 -
[62]
Would you sacrifice 8 hours of gameplay time for each new player in your alliance?
Unequivacablly, yes I would. That is how our corp works. When we get new players, they come on operations with us immediately, where we teach them the right way, in real situations.
-Karlemgne
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:32:00 -
[63]
 Originally by: Karlemgne
Edited by: Karlemgne on 15/01/2007 20:03:08
Furthermore, if you were to try these tactics every day at the same gate, some alliance or corp would adapt, and wipe you all.
...
Who are your opponents? If you want to do a side by side of "isk" destroyed, I'm sure there are many alliances, pirate corps, merc corps, etc who have you beat, friend. Or is this just heavy winded posturing?
-Karlemgne
Keep in mind that PvP University is only part of what Agony does. We're also a full-time 0.0 pvp corp living in Pure Blind fighting D2, FLA, IRON, OXIDE, etc. We DO use our tactics every day and guess what, we still have positive kill:loss ratios and a lot of success, despite having members who are much newer and fly much cheaper ships. It's easy to call us blobbers if you don't fight us. The fact of the matter is that outside of classes Agony members pvp solo and in small gangs. Seriously, the more you post the less informed you sound. You keep coming up with criticisms which straight up don't apply. If you're going to flame us for what we do at least know what we do.
Yes, of course the best way to learn pvp is to join a PvP corp, that's pretty damn obvious. We do take recruits and they do learn damn fast. The fact of the matter is though that some people are happy in their current corp and still want to learn to pvp. Our classes provide an easy way to get into PvP and form a foundation that can be built upon by further practice.
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Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:14:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Karlemgne on 15/01/2007 22:11:05
We're also a full-time 0.0 pvp corp living in Pure Blind fighting D2, FLA, IRON, OXIDE, etc.
You live in 0.0, and you are teaching newbs a lot of stuff that only really has utility in 0.0 fighting. This is one of my main concerns about your school. Some of these guys won't be out to 0.0 for a long time, and a vast majority of them, never at all.
We DO use our tactics every day and guess what, we still have positive kill:loss ratios.
This is kind of amusing to me. There are hundreds of corps with a positive kill loss ration. Plenty whose pvp skills I know, and respect. I've never met you guys, but there is something a bit gamey about 50 guys shooting a Vexor and one of you chanting "good kill."
The fact of the matter is that outside of classes Agony members pvp solo and in small gangs.
Again, you concede a point I made somewhere up on this thread. Most pvp in this game occurs in small groups, and on a 1v1 level. You guys have stated that you don't teach that. Because, in your words, fleet tactics are more important, and you "don't have the resources." The fact is, training of this kind of pvp is what newbs need most.
Seriously, the more you post the less informed you sound.
Give me a break, kid. You've conceded all my points. Such as, "well yeah we teach in blobs, but when we do our own fighting we don't blob."
Furthermore, I've noticed you have collectively remained silent when I've countered all your talk about the power of a skilled pilot in a destroyer, blah blah...
Or your the "number of newbs in tech 1 frigates versus a battleship don't matter."
I think, by the tone of posts, the opposite is true. The more I post, the more it appears to everyone else I know what the **** I'm talking about, thus the need to flame me and call me ignorant, or just quote me and change my text to some sladerous bull****.
You keep coming up with criticisms which straight up don't apply. If you're going to flame us for what we do at least know what we do.
First of all, I never flamed you. I started with dispelling the notion that you have something insigtful to teach about destroyers, then lightly critiquing your school. I've even said, MORE THAN once, that flying with you will teach people something useful. The only thing I've disputed here is whether or not a newb should pay for training that doesn't really apply to them, when they can get training that does apply to them free.
The fact of the matter is though that some people are happy in their current corp and still want to learn to pvp.
True. That is why you make friends with people. Its an MMO. There are plenty of pirate or anti-pirate corps who will let you fly with them as a friend, invite to their vent, and teach you heaps of stuff... ::drum roll:: for free.
Our classes provide an easy way to get into PvP and form a foundation that can be built upon by further practice.
Yes, sure. I concede that as a possibility. I still will insist that you are not giving newbs what they need to survive in low sec empire. You are teaching them stuff that has limited application, and mostly in 0.0. That doesn't mean they won't learn anything valuable that they can "build on."
-Karlemgne
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Gamble Dakota
Immortalis Silens
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:28:00 -
[65]
Game, Set, and Match, Karl.
Also, the best way to learn pvp is to get out there and do it. Classes are stupid.
I find the correct answer is rarely the truthful one.
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:47:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Christina Bamar on 15/01/2007 22:44:22
These classes ARE getting out there and doing it. We teach a bit then take people out to 0.0 and give them first hand practice. As far as most of EVE pvp being solo/small gang that's just not true. Lots of 0.0 corps/alliances send us their new pilots so that they can participate in their ops without messing things up. The easiest way to get into pvp is to work in a gang and THEN work on how to solo. It's much easier to learn when you have other people to help you out. You even said yourself the best way to learn is to make friends and fly along with them. Then at the same time you say that everyone should learn to pvp solo.
Low sec is easier to live in than 0.0 period. We teach people how to survive in 0.0, and by extension how to live in low sec. I don't really see how bookmarks, aligning, ewar, and small ship tactics are only good for 0.0. Exactly what is this stuff that we teach which is only useful in 0.0(other than how a bubble works =P ).
Also for the last time we do pvp outside of 50 man gangs. Enough with the saying "killing a vexor with a 50 man gang takes no skill." Yes we kill with overwhelming odds sometimes, everyone does. We're not going to let some random cruiser pass by just because we have more ships than them. What you keep ignoring is the fact that we do beat even or worse odds even while flying cheaper ships and having less SP. There are reasons why classes are big. First of all, it's more time efficient. Most of our classes fill up within a day or two of being posted, even with 30 slots open. Secondly with a group of players competely new to pvp mistakes happen. In a 5 man gang one guy messing up would screw over the entire group. In a 40 man gang a mistake is much less likely to have a large effect. Being in a large group is much more forgiving to mistakes and is a better way to teach new pvpers.
Also, I'm not a "kid"
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Oran Sound
Crimson Council
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:49:00 -
[67]
I don't think 5mil would break the bank of most new players. Its fairly easy to amass that amount of isk in a short amount of time. Funnily enough, I believe I ended up profiting by 6 mil isk when I took the class. Those T2 drones pull in a fair amount on the market :p. That vulture dropped a few.
Personally, I didn't join the class to learn "solo pvp". I wanted to be exposed to 0.0 and to see how cov-ops pilots are used to vector in gangs on unsuspecting targets. I'd never been exposed to fleet/gang warfare. Its a completely different experience from solo flying in Empire. If anything, its 5 mil to fly around with some fun, combat oriented people in 0.0 with a competent leader. I can now even tag along with them in 0.0 in the future. This is in complete contrast to my corp. We don't go out looking for a fight and are mainly industrial/mission runners. They have exposed me to parts of the game that I normally would never see.
Yes, anyone can learn to be a pirate on their own and often times without joining a corp. How can you get exposure to fleet/gang warfare without joining another corp/alliance? If anything, AU allows me to stay in my tightknit corp of friends and still have fun every once in awhile. Keyword "fun". It's fun to fly around in a huge gang of T1 frigs blowing stuff up. It breaks the monotony of missions/mining in empire.
In closing, do your own research. Its only 5mil and not much to lose if you feel the class sucks. Take it for what it is, an introduction.
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Elgwapo
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Posted - 2007.01.16 06:41:00 -
[68]
6 mil is nothing. How could anyone be all up in arms about this. Some people really will benefit from having someone show them pvp basics. People that have been playing long enough to know everything they have to teach wont miss the 6 mil.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.16 09:37:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Further line-by-line pointless uninformed dissections...
-Karlemgne
1-I am not and never have been affiliated with AU beyond taking two of thier advertised courses.
2-The reason myself (and others) take them is to learn something new. As a brief example-right after completing the first course one of my former corp-mates was attacked in Tash-Murkon low-sec by a pirate. For the first time in game I felt comfortable organizing and leading a response (5 pilots-1 of whom acted as bait...various fast ships) resulting in the destruction of the pirate's Thorax and a "well-played" in local from same. I have to wonder if one of the small mining corps you prey upon has taken this course and ganked you in a similar fashion to cause this much hostility on your part towards an in-game school who's courses you have NOT taken.
Further to that-when I made the move to UKC/LV I was ready and comfortable in my ability to instantly contribute to operations having been taught the basics and built upon them from there.
3-Alliance combat operations run the gamut from solo/small gangs right up to the POS war fleets. But you would have no knowledge of that being a small time pirate type. Not that there is anything wrong with that..pirating is just as viable an EvE profession as anything else.
4-Solo combat in EvE is a suckers game (generally speaking). As I have stated elsewhere-if I want to fly realistic one-v-one scenarios I'll boot up IL-2 or Falcon-IV where "true" ACM is a viable option.
5-You sir-are a troll and nothing more. And a rather boring one at that. I will leave it there as AU are more than capable of defending themselves both on the forums and in-game.
Regards
Bone
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Cerias Shadows
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.16 19:25:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Cerias Shadows on 16/01/2007 19:26:26
You keep stating that you arent flaming... that you are merely and I quote "critiqueing" our course.
... Correct me If I am wrong but is it common for someone Critiqueing anothers work to do so with out viewing it? Would you critique a movie with out first watching the movie from start to finish... and if you were a good critic you would do so several times to pick up the subtle sub plots. Would you critique a painting with out viewing the painting sitting down and really trying to understand it? Would you critique a chef with out tasting his food? Could you imagine the Iron Chef concluding by the Judges playing Paper Rock Scissors?
So I have one question. Have you taken our course?
- No. You have not.
I feel safe in explaining to you then once again that you are not Critiquing. Comprende?
Also a true critique belongs in the Agony Forums under the Enrollment thread you are signed up in or on our PVP-Basic forums which you get access to when you sign up and take our course.
Please stop trying to pass this off as anything less that it is ... be honest with yourself. You were the "kid" that reads the cliff notes and tries to write the book report the day after its due and turn it in for half credit.
~CS |
Cerias Shadows
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.16 19:28:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Cerias Shadows on 16/01/2007 19:25:00
And Gamble is the perfect definition of a "Tool"
~CS |
Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.19 03:44:00 -
[72]
Updated with current courses.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.19 09:35:00 -
[73]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/01/2007 09:33:00
Just out of curiosity are there any plans for an Interceptor course? And I presume the covops classes are being run from time-to-time?
Bone
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Kesro
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Posted - 2007.01.19 10:31:00 -
[74]
It is in the works but nothing firm yet.
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.22 22:50:00 -
[75]
Class list updated to reflect currently offered classes.
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Sebmagic
Caldari
In Articulo Mortis
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Posted - 2007.01.23 03:11:00 -
[76]
I took the PvP Course in the beginning of January and it was a lot of fun. You learn all the basics for low sec movement, then you venture in 0.0 and practice some skills that would result in a couple of ship lost without the training.
I will be going back again with some corp members of I and we plan to have a blast... It's all we need to build up or confidence and our own tactics to venture in 0.0 ourselves as a little gang.
If you don't like the course, don't mind them, but I took them after a year of playing and it was a blast. Plus, they are good teachers and they take care of the students during the class.
Good points for you all AU.
Seb
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Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
ORKS
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Posted - 2007.01.23 04:40:00 -
[77]
Hi People,
Firstly I did the PVP Basic course on the past weekend and found it to be generally well run and very pertinent to noob pvpers. Now, while I am not a highly experienced pvper I have 5 or so kills to my name (2 cruisers and 3 frigates) and have been playing Eve for 10 months so do have a good idea of how the pvp game goes.
Due to my prior knowledge and experience I was in a good position to be able to judge the quality of the Agony basic course. Let me make these points:
1. The course was not just about frigate blobs. Far from it.
2. Most of the rules and methods taught apply to solo lowsec as well as 0.0 pvp.
3. The course was designed as a basic intro. Remember that.
4. The practical part being held in low sec and then in 0.0 gave the students a real taste of life in a contested part of busy 0.0 space. This is an experience that many of them would never have been able to get otherwise. The challenging environment made the students apply their skills and hone their combat nerves.
Karl's attack on the course is pretty irrelevant as he has surely no idea what the material is and what effect it had on the students.
I personally learned a few good things from the course and grew a better understanding of how PvP works and how to setup my Eve client more effectively.
To give you an idea it covered everything from how jump, how/when/how far and why orbit a target, the importance of the various modules when pvping, the importance of clear communications in groups of any size, the strong and weak points of various T1 frigates, how to balance out and use web, scram and other eWar in a gang of any size, the economy and perspective of the pvper, use of ships' scanner, etc etc etc.
I went into the course with an open mind and left my gamer ego at the starting station. Much of the material I already knew but there were many things I learnt that I did not even expect. The whole exerience I found to be very professional and well organised. The material was clear, relevant and well presented. The attention to each students needs was given willingly with patience and tolerance. Overall the course was run extrememly well.
I would like to thank the instructor (Dez) and the team of Agony players that scouted for us and Assisted Dez throughout the 6-8 hours it ran. I was stunned at the tolerance and dedication that your corp has to it's classes.
Really, if anyone wishes to complain then I would suggest that if you think it can be done better then go ahead and assmble your team and run courses yourself. There is certainly room for other training organisations in Eve. Don't come in here and run the course down, go out there and do better if you think you can.
Mik Nostrebor
AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite |
Dez Erichs
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.24 07:55:00 -
[78]
Thank you very much Mik! We get lots of feedback from new players that enjoyed the class, which is nice, but when we get positive comments from experienced players it is all the sweeter. I'm sure I'll be flying with you soon!
Cheers!
-Dez
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Dez Erichs, Captain, Agony Unleashed "Veni, Vidi, Caedi" |
Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.05 07:55:00 -
[79]
Class Announcements updated.
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:41:00 -
[80]
Topic updated with current course announcements.
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Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.02.11 20:25:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Karlemgne on 11/02/2007 20:21:52
Karl's attack on the course is pretty irrelevant as he has surely no idea what the material is and what effect it had on the students.
If my attack is irrelevant, why is it that you continue, far after I let this argument die, to explain your way out of my critique?
I stand by what I said, and you can judge for yourself simply from the behavior of Agony, its members, allies, and alts.
You will learn something from this course, I'm sure. Is it worth your isk, particularly if you are a relatively new player? I doubt it. There are more efficent, less costly ways to get a pvp education.
-Karlemgne
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MI Koshkin
The Protectorate Corporation
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:28:00 -
[82]
The classes put on by Agony are top-notch. Their teachers are excellent and their presentation is outstanding. The amount they charge for their classes is really a pittance for the effort they expend on their classes. Our board of directors thinks highly enough of their classes that we have made attendance mandatory (at our corporations expense) for any new recruits that don't already have extensive PVP experience.
Just another happy client.
kosh
The Protectorate |
Karlemgne
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:08:00 -
[83]
Originally by: MI Koshkin
The classes put on by Agony are top-notch. Their teachers are excellent and their presentation is outstanding. The amount they charge for their classes is really a pittance for the effort they expend on their classes. Our board of directors thinks highly enough of their classes that we have made attendance mandatory (at our corporations expense) for any new recruits that don't already have extensive PVP experience.
Just another happy client.
kosh
Ah, good ole' fashioned testimonials! I mean, I believe it every time I see someone on television tell me they made a million dollars in a week, and all I need to do is send them $20 to find out how.
If you want to learn PvP put in an application with BKFT.
-K
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Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:47:00 -
[84]
Thanks for the continuous bumps Karl. You've done a pretty good job at keeping us near the top. Of course, according to you, Agony must have an army of alts in all kinds of alliances in order to get this testimonials.  - And naturally, by charging 5mil isk per customer, we must be getting wealthy!
-----
/ash |
Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:14:00 -
[85]
Originally by: MI Koshkin
The classes put on by Agony are top-notch. Their teachers are excellent and their presentation is outstanding. The amount they charge for their classes is really a pittance for the effort they expend on their classes. Our board of directors thinks highly enough of their classes that we have made attendance mandatory (at our corporations expense) for any new recruits that don't already have extensive PVP experience.
Just another happy client.
kosh
Thanks for the glowing review and for your business. We greatly appreciate all of the support we get from our students and their corp CEOs.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:15:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Karlemgne
Edited by: Karlemgne on 11/02/2007 20:21:52
If my attack is irrelevant, why is it that you continue, far after I let this argument die, to explain your way out of my critique?
-Karlemgne
Most folks "critique" what they have personally experienced. Your commentary/arguements have no validity as you have not attended an AU course and as such-remain boring and irrelevant.
Free AU bump 
"Lead me...Follow me...Or get the **** out of my way...."
-General George Patton USA
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Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.02.12 07:01:00 -
[87]
Great class. Highly recommend it. At first you just learn the basics: what to fit, how to orbit, what to look out for, etc. Its definitely good for beginners. If you stick with them you'll eventually learn a lot more stuff, like how to fit a t1 frig or destroyer to kill interceptors solo and a bunch of other fun stuff too. Check it out.
----------------------------------------------------
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Garrick Konquero
Gallente
ImmCo
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Posted - 2007.02.18 18:51:00 -
[88]
I completed the 2.17 PVP-Basic class and found the experience very worthwhile. The instructor and his corp-mates were mature, professional, and patient with their students.
I think most players with an interest in PVP would find something to take from the course.
I also recommend the course to any that want to experience a bit of 0.0, but due to their circumstances (casual player, solo-player, small corp, etc.) find it difficult.
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alexiaous
Caldari
Pitch Black Incorporated
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.19 03:22:00 -
[89]
In these courses we will learn how to gank:
1. gank 15-1 then pat each other on the back.
2. fly around pb/venal ganking innocent(most of the time) ratters.
mmm carebears with guns is one thing. carebears taking a course that is now a very badly concealed attempt to pirate anyhting that moves in 0.0 is quiet another.
p.s. flame my spelling, or grammer, or both. ^^
Coming to a system near you! |
Borasao
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Posted - 2007.02.19 16:47:00 -
[90]
The ganking part is the fun at the end of the class to get your blood flowing. The couple hours of instruction before you ever enter lowsec space is the important part.
As far as picking easy targets, I flew in the basic class where we killed a tanked Drake that was bait (that made a mistake) in front of a station while his ~five friends watched (two in BS, two others in BC, and one in a HAC, IIRC). We also killed a Curse later that night and then the same pilot warped in on top of us with a Tempest loaded with smartbombs and a friend of his in a Typhoon and another in an interceptor both joined in. We got the Tempest abut the Typhoon and interceptor both warped away after we turned our attention to them (the phoon showed up at range so we had to close the distance but he got away while we did that).
In the wolfpack class (destroyers), we killed a Zealot outside of a base where several friends of his also watched, then a little while later we killed two BS loaded with smartbombs (apoc and raven) that used a covops to warp in on top of us to kill us for taking out the Zealot. Unfortunately, they warped in right on top of me but I got out in my pod that time. During that run, we also had to dodge two fleets that were about to collide... one with a mothership and another fairly large one, that was fun.
So yeah... there's some ganking going on and some attempts to gank as well. However, the things done before ever entering lowsec are the important parts. The lowsec/0.0 run afterwards is more like 'recess' or something... just to put what you've gone over into action and get your blood flowing.
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