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Why people undercut by 10% or more

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SloBones	Posted - 2007.01.24 00:41:00 - [121] In my short experience of selling on the market I agree with the oter players that sell pvp loot and mission loot. My rule of thumb for selling the items is to go off of regional average and lower than what everyone else is selling it for. I doubt selling a few here and there aren't going to affect the market. THose 5 or 6 items will sell quick and then it's back to you're high priced products
SloBones	Posted - 2007.01.24 00:41:00 - [122] In my short experience of selling on the market I agree with the oter players that sell pvp loot and mission loot. My rule of thumb for selling the items is to go off of regional average and lower than what everyone else is selling it for. I doubt selling a few here and there aren't going to affect the market. THose 5 or 6 items will sell quick and then it's back to you're high priced products
aiaakii	Posted - 2007.01.24 04:06:00 - [123] Originally by: Sun Win 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. ding ding.. we have a winner... what is an 'acceptable level of profit' for one, is simply to much capital tied up for to long for another.. and to think someone is arguing that the Market ISNT PvP in the General forum...
aiaakii	Posted - 2007.01.24 04:06:00 - [124] Originally by: Sun Win 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. ding ding.. we have a winner... what is an 'acceptable level of profit' for one, is simply to much capital tied up for to long for another.. and to think someone is arguing that the Market ISNT PvP in the General forum...
David H'Levi Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.24 07:59:00 - [125] Originally by: aiaakii Originally by: Sun Win 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. ding ding.. we have a winner... what is an 'acceptable level of profit' for one, is simply to much capital tied up for to long for another.. and to think someone is arguing that the Market ISNT PvP in the General forum... Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. We Recruit!
David H'Levi Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.01.24 07:59:00 - [126] Originally by: aiaakii Originally by: Sun Win 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. ding ding.. we have a winner... what is an 'acceptable level of profit' for one, is simply to much capital tied up for to long for another.. and to think someone is arguing that the Market ISNT PvP in the General forum... Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. As much as you may love me, your signature must pertain to your in-game persona, and thus I must remove it. -Conuion Meow
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.01.24 08:21:00 - [127] Originally by: David H'Levi Originally by: aiaakii Originally by: Sun Win 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. ding ding.. we have a winner... what is an 'acceptable level of profit' for one, is simply to much capital tied up for to long for another.. and to think someone is arguing that the Market ISNT PvP in the General forum... Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. Exactly: I'm with David H'Levi on elasticity here. EVE players place a high priority on maximizing entertainment and/or ISK value of gametime. That's why people reliably pay large markups for T2 stuff at gateway systems - they can earn the money back in the time it would take them to head farther into empire.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.01.24 08:21:00 - [128] Originally by: David H'Levi Originally by: aiaakii Originally by: Sun Win 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. ding ding.. we have a winner... what is an 'acceptable level of profit' for one, is simply to much capital tied up for to long for another.. and to think someone is arguing that the Market ISNT PvP in the General forum... Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. Exactly: I'm with David H'Levi on elasticity here. EVE players place a high priority on maximizing entertainment and/or ISK value of gametime. That's why people reliably pay large markups for T2 stuff at gateway systems - they can earn the money back in the time it would take them to head farther into empire.
Trebor Locke Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.24 17:41:00 - [129] Originally by: David H'Levi Originally by: aiaakii Originally by: Sun Win 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. ding ding.. we have a winner... what is an 'acceptable level of profit' for one, is simply to much capital tied up for to long for another.. and to think someone is arguing that the Market ISNT PvP in the General forum... Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. Depends on where you trade. If it's in a trade hub such as Ours or Jita, you might have to do this to ensure your sale without having to deal with the .01iskers. The market will saturate, deal with it. 20% will sell faster than 50% no matter what. There are differing rates of sales depending on the system. For someone to be competitive they will need to undercut their competition. The reason for a 20% markup as opposed to 50% is so that it makes it worth it for potential buyers to go get the item from him as opposed to their opponent. If you experience no difference in sales be it 50% or 20%, then good for you. But don't knock someone elses way of playing just because it comes in to conflict with yours. Your whole way of thinking presumes that there is the same rate of sales no matter what. It is ovbious that someone wants to take your sales for themselves and that it annoys you because you've lost your nice profits. --------------
Trebor Locke Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.24 17:41:00 - [130] Originally by: David H'Levi Originally by: aiaakii Originally by: Sun Win 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. ding ding.. we have a winner... what is an 'acceptable level of profit' for one, is simply to much capital tied up for to long for another.. and to think someone is arguing that the Market ISNT PvP in the General forum... Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. Depends on where you trade. If it's in a trade hub such as Ours or Jita, you might have to do this to ensure your sale without having to deal with the .01iskers. The market will saturate, deal with it. 20% will sell faster than 50% no matter what. There are differing rates of sales depending on the system. For someone to be competitive they will need to undercut their competition. The reason for a 20% markup as opposed to 50% is so that it makes it worth it for potential buyers to go get the item from him as opposed to their opponent. If you experience no difference in sales be it 50% or 20%, then good for you. But don't knock someone elses way of playing just because it comes in to conflict with yours. Your whole way of thinking presumes that there is the same rate of sales no matter what. It is ovbious that someone wants to take your sales for themselves and that it annoys you because you've lost your nice profits. --------------
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.01.24 19:59:00 - [131] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide Why is it people will take a perfectly good item which has a high demand and an unusually high price, an start undercutting it by 10% or even more? Do they get off to depriving people of good profits? I can honestly not think of a good reason to kill not only your own profits, but the profits of other people. I do it all the time, but only when i have multiples of the item. I want other sellers to think about undercutting me by much more. And simply i want it to sell fast. Since i can only have like 5 orders up at a time. Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Jason Marshall Emerald Empire	Posted - 2007.01.24 19:59:00 - [132] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide Why is it people will take a perfectly good item which has a high demand and an unusually high price, an start undercutting it by 10% or even more? Do they get off to depriving people of good profits? I can honestly not think of a good reason to kill not only your own profits, but the profits of other people. I do it all the time, but only when i have multiples of the item. I want other sellers to think about undercutting me by much more. And simply i want it to sell fast. Since i can only have like 5 orders up at a time. Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Teh Supah Thorku	Posted - 2007.01.24 20:59:00 - [133] I undercut by 0.01 coz i have plenty of time to babysit station and check market every 10 seconds and if i get undercutted by 10% i do my 0.01 undercut again when owner of 10% less order is goin offline (buddy list ftw) Thanks
Teh Supah Thorku	Posted - 2007.01.24 20:59:00 - [134] I undercut by 0.01 coz i have plenty of time to babysit station and check market every 10 seconds and if i get undercutted by 10% i do my 0.01 undercut again when owner of 10% less order is goin offline (buddy list ftw) Thanks
Kua Burrow	Posted - 2007.01.24 22:25:00 - [135] Edited by: Kua Burrow on 24/01/2007 22:29:10 Edited by: Kua Burrow on 24/01/2007 22:23:38 Could someone prove that putting your sell order 10% below that of the lowest price will mean you make more money than putting it 0.1 isk below? I'm assuming now that people are able to check their prices regularly (and change them accordingly). It is my humble opinion that if someone has decided they want something now they will usually simply buy no matter what the lowest sell price (within reason). And I would say this has rung true for me, although my trading experience is limited. Well IMO (as if another opinion needed to be added to this thread) the only reason for undercutting by 10% is if you don't have time to check your orders. But, as others have suggested (and this has also been my experience) others will just undercut you by 0.01 isk. Having said that if a price seems really ridiculous I will undercut it by more than a token amount. But I'm not very clued up on the true worth of things - could anyone point me in the direction of a spreadsheet or something which lists the mineral worth of items? Something where I could put in my own mineral prices and get an item's base worth. If something like this already exists I'd like to save myself the bother of making one . EDIT: I just read this and it sums up what I was trying to say rather better Originally by: David H'Levi Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. Trebor, I'm not sure but I wonder if you have misunderstood David. I agree when he says if you're going to have the lowest sell order, why not make it the highest lowest sell order you can get away with? Like Ramblin man says, in many cases if someone wants (needs even) something they're willing to pay over the odds to get it. I'm sure we've all sold things for stupidly high mark-ups, and I'm sure we've all bought things at ridiculously high prices when we were desperate.
Kua Burrow	Posted - 2007.01.24 22:25:00 - [136] Edited by: Kua Burrow on 24/01/2007 22:29:10 Edited by: Kua Burrow on 24/01/2007 22:23:38 Could someone prove that putting your sell order 10% below that of the lowest price will mean you make more money than putting it 0.1 isk below? I'm assuming now that people are able to check their prices regularly (and change them accordingly). It is my humble opinion that if someone has decided they want something now they will usually simply buy no matter what the lowest sell price (within reason). And I would say this has rung true for me, although my trading experience is limited. Well IMO (as if another opinion needed to be added to this thread) the only reason for undercutting by 10% is if you don't have time to check your orders. But, as others have suggested (and this has also been my experience) others will just undercut you by 0.01 isk. Having said that if a price seems really ridiculous I will undercut it by more than a token amount. But I'm not very clued up on the true worth of things - could anyone point me in the direction of a spreadsheet or something which lists the mineral worth of items? Something where I could put in my own mineral prices and get an item's base worth. If something like this already exists I'd like to save myself the bother of making one . EDIT: I just read this and it sums up what I was trying to say rather better Originally by: David H'Levi Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. Trebor, I'm not sure but I wonder if you have misunderstood David. I agree when he says if you're going to have the lowest sell order, why not make it the highest lowest sell order you can get away with? Like Ramblin man says, in many cases if someone wants (needs even) something they're willing to pay over the odds to get it. I'm sure we've all sold things for stupidly high mark-ups, and I'm sure we've all bought things at ridiculously high prices when we were desperate.
Ghost Baron	Posted - 2007.01.28 08:28:00 - [137] Edited by: Ghost Baron on 28/01/2007 08:25:52 Originally by: David H'Levi Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. Agreed. Not only will consumers buy out of convenience, they will buy out of ignorance. Many players, especially inexperienced ones, will assume the lowest price is a reasonable one. If a player has never checked the market of another region for a specific item, they may not realize they just payed 400% more than what it would sell in the boarding region. The point is, consumers are going to go with the lowest relative price almost every time, whether it be do to convenience, ignorance or just plain apathy. So I really don't see the justification in a 10% undercut. If the item is at all usable or even popular, a large undercut is just going to cause other traders to undercut, gradually lowering the profit for everyone. The 10% undercut is almost like a "quick fix" that just makes the market more unstable. If you really want to see profit, I suggest all the traders in a region collectively buy off every available order of a single mod, and resell for a ridiculous increase. (Mark I Generator CPR's, anyone?) I had huge success with this, as did everyone involved(all my 20 sold very fast for 400% of the purchasing price), and it seemed to have been done randomly or by accident(doubtful). Of course, the spike didn't last but there are plenty of other mods out there. Let's put some collaboration into it Edit: Clarity
Ghost Baron	Posted - 2007.01.28 08:28:00 - [138] Edited by: Ghost Baron on 28/01/2007 08:25:52 Originally by: David H'Levi Sure, this is mathematically true. But in my experience there is almost no difference in sell times between reasonable markups. The obvious question is, "if a 20% markup sells out that fast, why not a 30% markup?" So, given the same rate of sales, 50%>20%. Agreed. Not only will consumers buy out of convenience, they will buy out of ignorance. Many players, especially inexperienced ones, will assume the lowest price is a reasonable one. If a player has never checked the market of another region for a specific item, they may not realize they just payed 400% more than what it would sell in the boarding region. The point is, consumers are going to go with the lowest relative price almost every time, whether it be do to convenience, ignorance or just plain apathy. So I really don't see the justification in a 10% undercut. If the item is at all usable or even popular, a large undercut is just going to cause other traders to undercut, gradually lowering the profit for everyone. The 10% undercut is almost like a "quick fix" that just makes the market more unstable. If you really want to see profit, I suggest all the traders in a region collectively buy off every available order of a single mod, and resell for a ridiculous increase. (Mark I Generator CPR's, anyone?) I had huge success with this, as did everyone involved(all my 20 sold very fast for 400% of the purchasing price), and it seemed to have been done randomly or by accident(doubtful). Of course, the spike didn't last but there are plenty of other mods out there. Let's put some collaboration into it Edit: Clarity
Plim Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.01 19:25:00 - [139] Because they are stupid. I have noticed this alot in the tech II market. They don't seem to understand that it's an oligopoly, and that by saturating the market (which is another issue) and undercutting by large amounts they are destroying their own profit margin. In EVE the number of compeitive advantages that can be found are quite limited. So often people can undercut all they want, it won't eliminate the competition, especially where tech II is involved. So everyone just ends up making less profit in the end. ----------------- Originally by: BoB forum PR Toxic sludge is good for you.
Plim Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.01 19:25:00 - [140] Because they are stupid. I have noticed this alot in the tech II market. They don't seem to understand that it's an oligopoly, and that by saturating the market (which is another issue) and undercutting by large amounts they are destroying their own profit margin. In EVE the number of compeitive advantages that can be found are quite limited. So often people can undercut all they want, it won't eliminate the competition, especially where tech II is involved. So everyone just ends up making less profit in the end. ----------------- signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) Hi, can you get CCP to remove T20 from the dev team too? Thanks.
Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.02.01 23:51:00 - [141] I bought up all the items in a region and jacked up the price. People are buying them like hotcakes and the industrialists still think it's cool to dump large sell-orders on the market for half my price. Big deal. I either buy their order up (I run lvl 4s, I have the cash) and resell at my price, or I 1 ISK them to death and then they drop the price low enough where I guess what. . .buy the order up. If they'd just price it up close to my new price we'd all make a ton of money. Guess people are just TOO smart for that. Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.02.01 23:51:00 - [142] I bought up all the items in a region and jacked up the price. People are buying them like hotcakes and the industrialists still think it's cool to dump large sell-orders on the market for half my price. Big deal. I either buy their order up (I run lvl 4s, I have the cash) and resell at my price, or I 1 ISK them to death and then they drop the price low enough where I guess what. . .buy the order up. If they'd just price it up close to my new price we'd all make a ton of money. Guess people are just TOO smart for that. Tired of 30 day plus research wait times? Want to produce your stuff faster? Try Liquid Research!!
Rathowen	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:05:00 - [143] The undercutting business is great isn't it? There is a huge difference between manufacturers and mission runners. Once I save a few of a like item that are worth selling, I will sell it at a lower price. There are many things that I consider when selling. I don't think you are giving enough credit to the casual trader. The first thing I will do is to check the availibility of the item on the market. If there are many of the same item, to include the current station I am docked in, I will undercut by a lesser amount, maybe by 1-5%. Now if the item is far and few between, I will match or lower by a few thousand isk just to make it worth the players time to jump to this station to pick up the item. When looking at a hub station in my region, and see that the item in question is 4 jumps away. I consider the laziness of most players. I will glady buy an item for a few iskies more if it is my current station if it will save me from jumping 4 gates for the 1 isk difference just for the particular item. So the price has to be worth my time, to fly over there and pick it up. Now, if said item is thousands cheaper a few jumps out, by god I'm there. Thats why you will see such undercutting. Not only for the quick isk, but to draw more people to that station to make it worth their time and isk to pick it up.
Rathowen	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:05:00 - [144] The undercutting business is great isn't it? There is a huge difference between manufacturers and mission runners. Once I save a few of a like item that are worth selling, I will sell it at a lower price. There are many things that I consider when selling. I don't think you are giving enough credit to the casual trader. The first thing I will do is to check the availibility of the item on the market. If there are many of the same item, to include the current station I am docked in, I will undercut by a lesser amount, maybe by 1-5%. Now if the item is far and few between, I will match or lower by a few thousand isk just to make it worth the players time to jump to this station to pick up the item. When looking at a hub station in my region, and see that the item in question is 4 jumps away. I consider the laziness of most players. I will glady buy an item for a few iskies more if it is my current station if it will save me from jumping 4 gates for the 1 isk difference just for the particular item. So the price has to be worth my time, to fly over there and pick it up. Now, if said item is thousands cheaper a few jumps out, by god I'm there. Thats why you will see such undercutting. Not only for the quick isk, but to draw more people to that station to make it worth their time and isk to pick it up.
Lady SDevil	Posted - 2007.02.04 06:21:00 - [145] I've been known to undercut quite frequently, then again most of what I pick up is rat loot, and I don't care what it sells for cause anything it makes is a bonus. Sure, I will try to get the maximum I can get for it, but at the same time I want to go as fast as possible, and the lowest priced item will go first. However, I also usually look at what it's selling for in the region and base my price off that if it's higher than the "average" price, a lot of people just go for the average price and call it a day.
Lady SDevil	Posted - 2007.02.04 06:21:00 - [146] I've been known to undercut quite frequently, then again most of what I pick up is rat loot, and I don't care what it sells for cause anything it makes is a bonus. Sure, I will try to get the maximum I can get for it, but at the same time I want to go as fast as possible, and the lowest priced item will go first. However, I also usually look at what it's selling for in the region and base my price off that if it's higher than the "average" price, a lot of people just go for the average price and call it a day.
Clementina Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.02.04 07:12:00 - [147] Half the merchants in this game complain about people who undercut by 0.01 isk. the other half complain about people who undercut by 10 percent or more. I command you merchants to get off the forums and get money.
Clementina Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.02.04 07:12:00 - [148] Half the merchants in this game complain about people who undercut by 0.01 isk. the other half complain about people who undercut by 10 percent or more. I command you merchants to get off the forums and get money.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.05 15:50:00 - [149] Someone gets gank and his loot collected. The Pirate gets sold on the market at above the buy order price, but cheaper than the sell order price. The pirate moves on. He does not study the market for more than a few mins. He could not care less if it could have squeezed an extra 20isk per item. He just wants to put it up for sale and move on. However, if you are controling the market - Then buy his goods out and resell. Making a fuss does nothing. Back a few months ago, when I ran the 0.0 Paragoon Soul Giant Can Mafia, where I bought out anyone selling Giant cans cheaper than me and then resold them at 4.5mil in 0.0. Nobody could topple me because I focused on a niche, and forced everyone to pay the prices I wanted. I did not make a post that somebody put a can for sale at 10% cheaper - I just bought his cans out and made isk out of them. --
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.05 15:50:00 - [150] Someone gets gank and his loot collected. The Pirate gets sold on the market at above the buy order price, but cheaper than the sell order price. The pirate moves on. He does not study the market for more than a few mins. He could not care less if it could have squeezed an extra 20isk per item. He just wants to put it up for sale and move on. However, if you are controling the market - Then buy his goods out and resell. Making a fuss does nothing. Back a few months ago, when I ran the 0.0 Paragoon Soul Giant Can Mafia, where I bought out anyone selling Giant cans cheaper than me and then resold them at 4.5mil in 0.0. Nobody could topple me because I focused on a niche, and forced everyone to pay the prices I wanted. I did not make a post that somebody put a can for sale at 10% cheaper - I just bought his cans out and made isk out of them. --

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