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Why people undercut by 10% or more

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JohnHackworth	Posted - 2007.01.15 21:15:00 - [31] Originally by: Shin Ra Because undercutting by 1 isk every time means its a competition of who can log in as many times as possible all day. If you undercut by 10%, the competition may think, ah screw this and move their goods to another region or they may buy all your goods and sell at their current price. Either way, the market will correct itself. No, what actually happens is that 10% undercut just gets .01 undercut again, heh.
JohnHackworth	Posted - 2007.01.15 21:15:00 - [32] Originally by: Shin Ra Because undercutting by 1 isk every time means its a competition of who can log in as many times as possible all day. If you undercut by 10%, the competition may think, ah screw this and move their goods to another region or they may buy all your goods and sell at their current price. Either way, the market will correct itself. No, what actually happens is that 10% undercut just gets .01 undercut again, heh.
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.01.15 21:42:00 - [33] Why I've done it? Because a low sell order price for 10 units leads to a lower buy order price for 100 units seeming reasonable, which leads to an increase in my profits when I move those 100 units to another region (or just cancel whatever's left of my 10-unit sell order and wait a day or two for the market to correct itself). MP
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.01.15 21:42:00 - [34] Why I've done it? Because a low sell order price for 10 units leads to a lower buy order price for 100 units seeming reasonable, which leads to an increase in my profits when I move those 100 units to another region (or just cancel whatever's left of my 10-unit sell order and wait a day or two for the market to correct itself). MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Nuska Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.01.15 22:01:00 - [35] I undercut, sometimes by 100 isk, sometimes by 100,000 isk. I don't play the stupid .01 isk game because it is not worth my real life time. Whenever I sell something I make profit. If a batch of items sits in my order cue and doesn't sell because some joker just happened to be .01 isk cheaper, I make no profit. 1bil isk today is worth more to me than 1.25bil isk tomorrow. Liquidity is king and I pity those who don't get that.
Nuska Amarr Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.01.15 22:01:00 - [36] I undercut, sometimes by 100 isk, sometimes by 100,000 isk. I don't play the stupid .01 isk game because it is not worth my real life time. Whenever I sell something I make profit. If a batch of items sits in my order cue and doesn't sell because some joker just happened to be .01 isk cheaper, I make no profit. 1bil isk today is worth more to me than 1.25bil isk tomorrow. Liquidity is king and I pity those who don't get that.
Strel Samodelkin Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.15 23:47:00 - [37] They want their stuff to sell fast, simple as that.
Strel Samodelkin Caldari Nationalist Party	Posted - 2007.01.15 23:47:00 - [38] They want their stuff to sell fast, simple as that. CEO Caldari Nationalist Party http://www.eve-caldari.com
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.01.16 00:00:00 - [39] I'd say the only thing that has ever made me mad is when I sold over 300k scourge heavy missiles for 100 isk a piece... which anyone who knows heavy missiles knows is a massive profit. No one else in my system was selling them and it's a heavy level 3 mission system. Then after a few days of selling scourge missiles at this price someone came in and priced them at 42 isk, about 50k at this price. Just as I was about to buy them out so I could keep selling at over double that price someone else placed a sell order at 41.9 isk with 1 million quantity then someone else set one at 38 isk.... Within 3 days they had sold out and i sold another 200k+ at 100 isk and then here comes another moron placing an order at 40 or so isk. I could understand a 90 isk order... undercutting me, etc. This kept happening for several weeks until finally a ton of people placed multiple millions of missiles at this cheaper rate. Now, 40ish isk was still higher priced than 90% of the region... so it's not like anyone was gonna come buy these from other systems anyhow. They just were screwing themselves out of millions of isk. That's the only time in 100's of billions of trading that I've gotten mad at other traders being stupid. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.01.16 00:00:00 - [40] I'd say the only thing that has ever made me mad is when I sold over 300k scourge heavy missiles for 100 isk a piece... which anyone who knows heavy missiles knows is a massive profit. No one else in my system was selling them and it's a heavy level 3 mission system. Then after a few days of selling scourge missiles at this price someone came in and priced them at 42 isk, about 50k at this price. Just as I was about to buy them out so I could keep selling at over double that price someone else placed a sell order at 41.9 isk with 1 million quantity then someone else set one at 38 isk.... Within 3 days they had sold out and i sold another 200k+ at 100 isk and then here comes another moron placing an order at 40 or so isk. I could understand a 90 isk order... undercutting me, etc. This kept happening for several weeks until finally a ton of people placed multiple millions of missiles at this cheaper rate. Now, 40ish isk was still higher priced than 90% of the region... so it's not like anyone was gonna come buy these from other systems anyhow. They just were screwing themselves out of millions of isk. That's the only time in 100's of billions of trading that I've gotten mad at other traders being stupid. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Pussey Spankratchet	Posted - 2007.01.16 00:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Shadarle I'd say the only thing that has ever made me mad is when I sold over 300k scourge heavy missiles for 100 isk a piece... which anyone who knows heavy missiles knows is a massive profit. No one else in my system was selling them and it's a heavy level 3 mission system. Then after a few days of selling scourge missiles at this price someone came in and priced them at 42 isk, about 50k at this price. Just as I was about to buy them out so I could keep selling at over double that price someone else placed a sell order at 41.9 isk with 1 million quantity then someone else set one at 38 isk.... Within 3 days they had sold out and i sold another 200k+ at 100 isk and then here comes another moron placing an order at 40 or so isk. I could understand a 90 isk order... undercutting me, etc. This kept happening for several weeks until finally a ton of people placed multiple millions of missiles at this cheaper rate. Now, 40ish isk was still higher priced than 90% of the region... so it's not like anyone was gonna come buy these from other systems anyhow. They just were screwing themselves out of millions of isk. That's the only time in 100's of billions of trading that I've gotten mad at other traders being stupid. They were not screwing themselves out of millions but screwing you instead and as someone has pointed out that this is "market PVP" consider yourself wtfpwnd!
Pussey Spankratchet	Posted - 2007.01.16 00:09:00 - [42] Originally by: Shadarle I'd say the only thing that has ever made me mad is when I sold over 300k scourge heavy missiles for 100 isk a piece... which anyone who knows heavy missiles knows is a massive profit. No one else in my system was selling them and it's a heavy level 3 mission system. Then after a few days of selling scourge missiles at this price someone came in and priced them at 42 isk, about 50k at this price. Just as I was about to buy them out so I could keep selling at over double that price someone else placed a sell order at 41.9 isk with 1 million quantity then someone else set one at 38 isk.... Within 3 days they had sold out and i sold another 200k+ at 100 isk and then here comes another moron placing an order at 40 or so isk. I could understand a 90 isk order... undercutting me, etc. This kept happening for several weeks until finally a ton of people placed multiple millions of missiles at this cheaper rate. Now, 40ish isk was still higher priced than 90% of the region... so it's not like anyone was gonna come buy these from other systems anyhow. They just were screwing themselves out of millions of isk. That's the only time in 100's of billions of trading that I've gotten mad at other traders being stupid. They were not screwing themselves out of millions but screwing you instead and as someone has pointed out that this is "market PVP" consider yourself wtfpwnd!
Gizmo Koda Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.16 00:18:00 - [43] Someone undercutting by 0.1 isk or something is ridiculous and annoying, so to **** them off I'll undercut them by a few hundred thousand. As long as I still make profits I'll do it.
Gizmo Koda Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.16 00:18:00 - [44] Someone undercutting by 0.1 isk or something is ridiculous and annoying, so to **** them off I'll undercut them by a few hundred thousand. As long as I still make profits I'll do it.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.01.16 00:39:00 - [45] Originally by: Pussey Spankratchet Originally by: Shadarle I'd say the only thing that has ever made me mad is when I sold over 300k scourge heavy missiles for 100 isk a piece... which anyone who knows heavy missiles knows is a massive profit. No one else in my system was selling them and it's a heavy level 3 mission system. Then after a few days of selling scourge missiles at this price someone came in and priced them at 42 isk, about 50k at this price. Just as I was about to buy them out so I could keep selling at over double that price someone else placed a sell order at 41.9 isk with 1 million quantity then someone else set one at 38 isk.... Within 3 days they had sold out and i sold another 200k+ at 100 isk and then here comes another moron placing an order at 40 or so isk. I could understand a 90 isk order... undercutting me, etc. This kept happening for several weeks until finally a ton of people placed multiple millions of missiles at this cheaper rate. Now, 40ish isk was still higher priced than 90% of the region... so it's not like anyone was gonna come buy these from other systems anyhow. They just were screwing themselves out of millions of isk. That's the only time in 100's of billions of trading that I've gotten mad at other traders being stupid. They were not screwing themselves out of millions but screwing you instead and as someone has pointed out that this is "market PVP" consider yourself wtfpwnd! In fact, if you had looked, that was me who pointed out the use of undercutting to cause someone to lose money. I've been undercut before but I've never gotten mad. In this case I actually didn't lose any money, I couldn't make enough missiles (which I produce myself) to keep up with the demand at 100 isk... I barely could make enough to keep up with the demand of selling for 2 days/week which is about how much time I had at 100 isk. So I still made all my money until a few weeks later when even more people started pricing so cheaply. It was purely them losing money, as they could have been selling for 90 isk just as many as they were selling at 40 isk. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.01.16 00:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Pussey Spankratchet Originally by: Shadarle I'd say the only thing that has ever made me mad is when I sold over 300k scourge heavy missiles for 100 isk a piece... which anyone who knows heavy missiles knows is a massive profit. No one else in my system was selling them and it's a heavy level 3 mission system. Then after a few days of selling scourge missiles at this price someone came in and priced them at 42 isk, about 50k at this price. Just as I was about to buy them out so I could keep selling at over double that price someone else placed a sell order at 41.9 isk with 1 million quantity then someone else set one at 38 isk.... Within 3 days they had sold out and i sold another 200k+ at 100 isk and then here comes another moron placing an order at 40 or so isk. I could understand a 90 isk order... undercutting me, etc. This kept happening for several weeks until finally a ton of people placed multiple millions of missiles at this cheaper rate. Now, 40ish isk was still higher priced than 90% of the region... so it's not like anyone was gonna come buy these from other systems anyhow. They just were screwing themselves out of millions of isk. That's the only time in 100's of billions of trading that I've gotten mad at other traders being stupid. They were not screwing themselves out of millions but screwing you instead and as someone has pointed out that this is "market PVP" consider yourself wtfpwnd! In fact, if you had looked, that was me who pointed out the use of undercutting to cause someone to lose money. I've been undercut before but I've never gotten mad. In this case I actually didn't lose any money, I couldn't make enough missiles (which I produce myself) to keep up with the demand at 100 isk... I barely could make enough to keep up with the demand of selling for 2 days/week which is about how much time I had at 100 isk. So I still made all my money until a few weeks later when even more people started pricing so cheaply. It was purely them losing money, as they could have been selling for 90 isk just as many as they were selling at 40 isk. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Ryker Kilbane	Posted - 2007.01.16 01:17:00 - [47] i have undercut by 5-10% on items that i have looted and salvaged from the wrecks of my missions that i will not use. ususally if i get say 5 or more of an item accumulated and want to make some money from it i will make a sell order...however if there is no real profit for it then i will just recycle it for the minerals...its not a matter of trying to force anyone out its just the quick profit so i can buy items i do need.
Ryker Kilbane	Posted - 2007.01.16 01:17:00 - [48] i have undercut by 5-10% on items that i have looted and salvaged from the wrecks of my missions that i will not use. ususally if i get say 5 or more of an item accumulated and want to make some money from it i will make a sell order...however if there is no real profit for it then i will just recycle it for the minerals...its not a matter of trying to force anyone out its just the quick profit so i can buy items i do need.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.01.16 01:41:00 - [49] That's a good point. When I get loot that I will never use and that I don't usually sell and it's more valuable to sell than recycle I will put it up fairly cheap just to get rid of it, since I don't want to have to keep looking back to see if it's sold yet. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.01.16 01:41:00 - [50] That's a good point. When I get loot that I will never use and that I don't usually sell and it's more valuable to sell than recycle I will put it up fairly cheap just to get rid of it, since I don't want to have to keep looking back to see if it's sold yet. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Sun Win Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.01.16 02:25:00 - [51] I'll tell you why I do it. 1) Because if I undercut by a small # like the classic 0.1 ISK someone else is going to come along and undercut again etc. And so the person who gets the sales is the one who camps the market. I have better things to do than camp the market. So I drop stuff in significantly below the rest and the other traders figure "I'll wait it out" then my stuff sells and then their stuff sells. 2) Because if the space between the highest buy is too big then someone hungrier than me will swoop in and narrow the gap. I figure, I'll just narrow it now and save everyone some trouble. I cut to the chase and skips 20 steps of undercutting back and forth and put my stuff up at the inevitable final price. 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Sun Win Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.01.16 02:25:00 - [52] I'll tell you why I do it. 1) Because if I undercut by a small # like the classic 0.1 ISK someone else is going to come along and undercut again etc. And so the person who gets the sales is the one who camps the market. I have better things to do than camp the market. So I drop stuff in significantly below the rest and the other traders figure "I'll wait it out" then my stuff sells and then their stuff sells. 2) Because if the space between the highest buy is too big then someone hungrier than me will swoop in and narrow the gap. I figure, I'll just narrow it now and save everyone some trouble. I cut to the chase and skips 20 steps of undercutting back and forth and put my stuff up at the inevitable final price. 3) Because a 20% markup that sells out in a day is better than a 50% markup that takes a week to sell out. New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Lunadi Minmatar Solar Trade	Posted - 2007.01.16 09:37:00 - [53] Edited by: Lunadi on 16/01/2007 09:35:06 Interesting topic. A question to all those who overbid agressively. Do you find your strategy effective? I recently observed a rise in buy orders price (for an item) from 2mil to 4.5mil in about 2 months. I fail to observe big changes in the competition or supply (I get about the same number of market orders completed as before, the only problem is that on each item I lost about 50% profit). Does it make sense? IMHO agressive bidding is actually a bad strategy, since most of the time it will make the other traders get into this 'price war' for a long time. The overall ratio of 'order won' to 'profit lost' will be unfavorable for everyone. I think it's a everyone loose strategy, but maybe some of you experience net gain (or maybe some just like the thrill of winning 'orders') -------- hate my spelling? go play SCRABBLE!
Lunadi Minmatar Solar Trade	Posted - 2007.01.16 09:37:00 - [54] Edited by: Lunadi on 16/01/2007 09:35:06 Interesting topic. A question to all those who overbid agressively. Do you find your strategy effective? I recently observed a rise in buy orders price (for an item) from 2mil to 4.5mil in about 2 months. I fail to observe big changes in the competition or supply (I get about the same number of market orders completed as before, the only problem is that on each item I lost about 50% profit). Does it make sense? IMHO agressive bidding is actually a bad strategy, since most of the time it will make the other traders get into this 'price war' for a long time. The overall ratio of 'order won' to 'profit lost' will be unfavorable for everyone. I think it's a everyone loose strategy, but maybe some of you experience net gain (or maybe some just like the thrill of winning 'orders') -------- hate my spelling? go play SCRABBLE
Bok Choi	Posted - 2007.01.16 11:18:00 - [55] Edited by: Bok Choi on 16/01/2007 11:16:35 Edited by: Bok Choi on 16/01/2007 11:15:44 I undercut by about 10% fairly often, usually its loot from PVP. I do this because it ensures a very quick sale. This should have almost no effect on your sales anyway as I am only dealing in very small amounts of items. If it bothers you, buy up the stock that is 10% cheaper and relist it. You will get a 10% profit for no work. That way I still get my sale and you make money too.
Bok Choi	Posted - 2007.01.16 11:18:00 - [56] Edited by: Bok Choi on 16/01/2007 11:16:35 Edited by: Bok Choi on 16/01/2007 11:15:44 I undercut by about 10% fairly often, usually its loot from PVP. I do this because it ensures a very quick sale. This should have almost no effect on your sales anyway as I am only dealing in very small amounts of items. If it bothers you, buy up the stock that is 10% cheaper and relist it. You will get a 10% profit for no work. That way I still get my sale and you make money too.
szith	Posted - 2007.01.16 12:01:00 - [57] I think there are lots of reasons. I liked MP's best; however, I do it myself when I don't want to camp a station. I don't mind camping one station some when it just means log in and check a few prices, but I won't do it to several stations for obvious reasons. So I pick a profit center to camp (log in before work, at lunch, after work before bed) and keep those prices lowest. I have undercut people by 20% easily before..just because I don't want to sit in a station.
szith	Posted - 2007.01.16 12:01:00 - [58] I think there are lots of reasons. I liked MP's best; however, I do it myself when I don't want to camp a station. I don't mind camping one station some when it just means log in and check a few prices, but I won't do it to several stations for obvious reasons. So I pick a profit center to camp (log in before work, at lunch, after work before bed) and keep those prices lowest. I have undercut people by 20% easily before..just because I don't want to sit in a station.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.16 12:58:00 - [59] Originally by: Naldo Don't think thats the issue. 20% proffit > 5% peoffit. Undercutting by 10% is sheer stupidity. 5% profit and sales > 20% profit and no sales. 0.01 isk undercuts only serve to slow the market in it's shift towards the current equilibrium. This is great if you are there all day to babysit orders and eke out that margin. But many people don't have the time to do that, or have too many products to give that level of attention to all of them. The other disadvantage is that the longer high margins persist, the more competition that's going to attract. By the time 0.01isk drops have whittled the price down to a more realistic level, you could end up with far more competition, and an equilibrium below market price. You then get a dirty scrap until some sellers pack up and leave. More rapid adjustment dissuades addutional competition, and keeps your market nicer in the long run. Of course, there have been cases where I've caught people messing with my local market, and just placed orders to combat them, simply cause they annoyed me. Not everything is about the most isk in the shortest time. Though to be fair, trying to mess with a market where the entire region's usage can be produced off a single BPO, was a little silly of them. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.16 12:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Naldo Don't think thats the issue. 20% proffit > 5% peoffit. Undercutting by 10% is sheer stupidity. 5% profit and sales > 20% profit and no sales. 0.01 isk undercuts only serve to slow the market in it's shift towards the current equilibrium. This is great if you are there all day to babysit orders and eke out that margin. But many people don't have the time to do that, or have too many products to give that level of attention to all of them. The other disadvantage is that the longer high margins persist, the more competition that's going to attract. By the time 0.01isk drops have whittled the price down to a more realistic level, you could end up with far more competition, and an equilibrium below market price. You then get a dirty scrap until some sellers pack up and leave. More rapid adjustment dissuades addutional competition, and keeps your market nicer in the long run. Of course, there have been cases where I've caught people messing with my local market, and just placed orders to combat them, simply cause they annoyed me. Not everything is about the most isk in the shortest time. Though to be fair, trying to mess with a market where the entire region's usage can be produced off a single BPO, was a little silly of them. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.

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