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Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 0	Posted - 2015.12.18 01:44:46 - [1] - Quote Just pondering on how little use in general Battleships get used in Eve. Generally we use T3/Pirate Faction Cruiser ships and skip right on to Dreads and Carriers. Sure the 2 T2 Battleships are sweet but they don't quite fit enough use in most situations to justify flying them more then they are now. So here's an idea: One the the 'weakness' that BS have is they have a hard time tracking/hit smaller targets making them quite vulnerable. These beast are huge and have plenty of room for more guns. But more guns does not necessarily mean better. How about, just like the T3 Destroyers have multiple modes, we give a BS (T3 or T2) the ability to have a second row of guns. One set for Large Weapons of course, and the other for smaller weapons. Could have 3 rows, covering all size weapons, but I'm in no place to judge balancing vs meta of the game. You wont be able to fire your Large guns with your Medium guns, but you can switch between them with a 10 sec delay. Now some might say, "well that's what drones are for". Such a ship can still have its drones, but think of how fun if you could use the other non dps drones with this ship. Instead of relying on a set of Light Drones to cover your close range targets, you now got Small weapons more then capable to handle them, you use Web drones to catch stuff as they were meant to, or neut drones to cap someone, or, or, or... endless possibilities! Could be a fun solo BS, or a great Missions ship, or a better small fleet roaming ship as it will cover diverse situations without the need to reship. And $$$ enough yet to be hunted as it wont unbalance any other classes. Would this ship be OP? I doubt it as its DPS would not be bonuses in any significant way to out class other DPS BS counter ships. Maybe have a Class penalty with say a 25% reduction to range to prevent them from replacing/countering Sniper setups. This ship wont have any special DPS, rather the ability to cover/counter a range of different ship sizes. It will easily leave the BS Marauder class to do the heavy DPS.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 408	Posted - 2015.12.18 02:02:55 - [2] - Quote I like the concept of T3 battleships that have dual high slot racks. the secondary rack could be a lot smaller than the main rack, say main - 3 or main/2 turret/launcher slots. what happens to utility highs? battleships main problem is warp speed and acceleration. mobility is t3h suck. Bobman Smith wrote: ....you use Web drones to catch stuff as they were meant to, or neut drones to cap someone, or, or, or... endless possibilities!........ umm, you realise that the web/neut/damp/TD drones all suck balls, right? ECM drones are worthwhile, but they work best when three or four ships let fly on the one target. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 0	Posted - 2015.12.18 05:18:46 - [3] - Quote Mephiztopheleze wrote: I like the concept of T3 battleships that have dual high slot racks. the secondary rack could be a lot smaller than the main rack, say main - 3 or main/2 turret/launcher slots. what happens to utility highs? battleships main problem is warp speed and acceleration. mobility is t3h suck. Bobman Smith wrote: ....you use Web drones to catch stuff as they were meant to, or neut drones to cap someone, or, or, or... endless possibilities!........ umm, you realise that the web/neut/damp/TD drones all suck balls, right? ECM drones are worthwhile, but they work best when three or four ships let fly on the one target. I'd say a normal set of turret hard points would be fair. Hypothetically lets say in Mode 1 your allowed 6 Large Weapons. In Mode 2 your still allowed to have 6 hard points to equip say Small Weapons. Would that be deadly to a solo frigate trying to catch the BS? Absolutely. One of the perks of such a ship is a lone tackle would have a hard time tackling. This BS should be majestic and capable, not OP, but capable. And with its 6 weapon slots, it should not sacrifice utility either if lets say it had a total of 8 highs. Those +2 highs would be the same regardless of what Mode it is in. BS mobility is what it is and I would not change that. But if its window to do DPS on a wider variety of targets would make it more capable of taking on small gangs in smaller ships you might not need to run at all. As for the drones, and this is just an idea: Make it so it can't operate combat drones. Only utility drones. Kinda 'force' us to use them. If we're talking about building a T3 here, like the other T3's, they are quite vastly different from T1's and T2's in operation and even the Dessy and Cruiser don't operate in the same matter, why should a T3 BS be different. How about the ablity to target itself with its own drones! Get use out of using them to repair itself! Or web itself so that it can turn around faster! lolz
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4879	Posted - 2015.12.18 05:43:24 - [4] - Quote While I like the idea, if you introduced T3 battleships (let alone the second row of guns) - I don't think you'd see anyone using T1, T2 or Faction battleships anymore... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 0	Posted - 2015.12.18 09:09:42 - [5] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: While I like the idea, if you introduced T3 battleships (let alone the second row of guns) - I don't think you'd see anyone using T1, T2 or Faction battleships anymore... I agree. But in context to how popular other T3 ships are used compared to their T1 and T2 counterparts. Price is still a large factor into the equation and I'm sure such a ship if it were to be T3 wont be cheap. (But lets hope CCP fixes how cheap T3 Destroyers are.) The Marauder will and should be a stronger DPS/Tank platform. And the Covert BS do their own thing when needed. T1 BS will be much like the rest of the T1 line up: Rather disposable fun ships that most people can derp around in. In fact, arguably speaking it could give the T1 BS an edge because of that. T1 BS damage could be a good counter for the T3 BS... when you have small gang of them... And as for the Pirate BS's. I don't see how it would effect them much at all. They have their niche that wont disappear so long as the T3 BS are not too cheap. With that said, I think T3 Destroyers need to go up in price to about 160M a Hull. And maybe even reduce the 50% damage to 25% to minimize the power creep they have added to the game. T3 ship should be capable versatile ships but not the best at everything. A great platform for those with the ISK/SP to consider them their personal jack of all ship, master of none platform. I think the T2 line really should be where Fleet Composition is made. Better then T1, and when fitted correctly and use correctly, the best of its 'trade' it was built for when you factor in the budget. Pirate Faction ships should be powerful for it's niche, and when you factor in its added cost to T2, they should be better. Pirate Faction ships also create a place to have those Ace in the hole, unique role that does not fit in with the Fleets of the 4 Empires. T3 Cruisers from what I can tell are decently placed... And hence the Multi Sized Weapon System BS would come in and provide a nice well rounded niche for itself in balance with the rest of Eve. EDIT: You did say Faction BS... I can see them taking a minor loss. Their costs probably wont justify them too much other then for low SP pilots that want to fly something better then T1 but cant fly T2. Not saying Faction Ships are bad, they just seem to be a little pricey considering the other options available.
Jarsoom Blade Blade's Legion 6	Posted - 2015.12.18 15:22:42 - [6] - Quote A T3BS with the three T3D modes would be amazing. Nice and versatile, could be seen to much use. Only, multiple weapon racks for the different sizes of weaponry sounds way too OP :P maybe an enormous tracking bonus in sharpshooter mode or something (still OP). Tired of playing alone? Wanna make some friends? Join 'Blade's Legion Recruitment' channel
Hochopepa POS Consultants Group LLC 22	Posted - 2015.12.18 16:10:23 - [7] - Quote The extra hardpoints and whatnot isn't that great of an idea. However, having a T3 BS with 3 modes would be fantastic. In say shooter mode, the gunnery BS's get a bonus to tracking, the missile boats get a bonus to missile velocity and explosion radius.
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2142	Posted - 2015.12.18 16:30:54 - [8] - Quote battleships usually missed? how, where did you get this info? machariels, apoc navy, rattlesnakes, vindis are a thing just now I honestly dont think we need more battleships and especially not broken tech 3, battleships dont really track small targets, set your drones on them ;) Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 0	Posted - 2015.12.19 04:41:28 - [9] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: battleships usually missed? how, where did you get this info? machariels, apoc navy, rattlesnakes, vindis are a thing just now I honestly dont think we need more battleships and especially not broken tech 3, battleships dont really track small targets, set your drones on them ;) If its built right, T3 BS should not effect the use of Machs, Apoc, Rattles, and Vindis. But if you look at data for ship uses you will find BS are way way down at the bottom of the list for DPS applied in game due to many reasons and should be given a little love so more people can justify their expense in both ISK and SP to fly them more then they are now. Not saying BS should get some magical rebalancing. That would not be good! But a BS capable of handling itself vs a small kitchen sink gang should exist. Roughly speaking a gang of 5 frigates can get under the large weapons and apply enough DPS to take on a loan BS. I fear smaller stuff I cant deal with over another BS cause another BS will simply come down to who's got the best DPS/Tank then the other. 5 drones will have virtually no effect on that 5 man frigate gang unless your a drone boat. I think the T3 line up is an idea choice for personal 'Flagships' relative to its class (size) and cost. It should be flown as a non disposable ship and the pride of any individuals collection. It should not be cheap, and it should not be easy to solo against. It should take a small gang careful selection of ships/tactics to take one out, or more likely, a hot drop or blob gang. A T3 BS will be another flagship we can choice. (Carriers being the only practical Flagship a normal Eve Player can aspire too). And I would think a T3 BS should be able to hold its own in a good fight vs a Carrier with the right build/tactics. But Super Carriers should be another animal for their costs. Super Carriers are just too expensive though for most players to justify getting and using with any sort of regularity. And if that 5 man gang is out hunting BS, there will still be other BS they can hunt, just not that one. Unfortunately you are right about one thing: Adding another broken ship to Eve is not needed. The current T3's do need some tweaking, but they are in the right ball park for their use and are welcomed to Eve. A T3 BS will be just as welcomed. But I will bet you if and when a T3 BS is released, it will start OP. If you ever notice, all new features implemented in any game usually always comes out OP till we the players have enough real world time so the developers can dial them in. I'm sure this will be true too, just got to give CCP some time to do their tweaks.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 17058	Posted - 2015.12.19 07:59:03 - [10] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: A T3 BS will be just as welcomed. But I will bet you if and when a T3 BS is released, it will start OP. If you ever notice, all new features implemented in any game usually always comes out OP till we the players have enough real world time so the developers can dial them in. I'm sure this will be true too, just got to give CCP some time to do their tweaks. Its been years now and t3 cruisers are still horrendously overpowered, we don't need anti-everything battleships. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 0	Posted - 2015.12.19 08:21:46 - [11] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Bobman Smith wrote: A T3 BS will be just as welcomed. But I will bet you if and when a T3 BS is released, it will start OP. If you ever notice, all new features implemented in any game usually always comes out OP till we the players have enough real world time so the developers can dial them in. I'm sure this will be true too, just got to give CCP some time to do their tweaks. Its been years now and t3 cruisers are still horrendously overpowered, we don't need anti-everything battleships. Think of it as more of an Anti Tackle personal mobile Star Base with enough DPS/Tank to solo just about everything you would normally do solo in sub caps with a Fleet Hanger just big enough to bring along a fitted Cruiser and some other smaller utility ships. And it would be simple to balance T3's: Increase the cost of the Destroyer to aprox 160M and change the weapons bonus from 50% to 25% to take some of the DPS out of it. And remove the ability to insure T3's. T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks! Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
Valkin Mordirc 1745	Posted - 2015.12.19 08:43:58 - [12] - Quote Isn't one of the main weaknesses of a battleship, a weakness to smaller faster ships of EVE a core thing? That's the reason why cruisers are so effective right now anyways. They apply well enough to frigs and dessies but they tank enough to out last them generally, while they are faster and small enough to mitigate most of the Battleships DPS. T3's just amplify it to an extravagant level. It's like your asking for a really really big cruiser. Yeah it would take care of T3's being a problem but itself would take it's place. A Versatile ship capable of doing everything moderately effectively at once. It didn't work T3's it didn't work with T3D's why would work with a T3BS? Although I love see new stuff added to the game, CCP REALLY needs to work on making changes for current balances. T3's got a bit of a pass, but as side from the Tengu getting a rather good Balance pass, they all still need help. IMO that should be the priority right now. `#DeleteTheWeak`
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 17058	Posted - 2015.12.19 11:05:58 - [13] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Isn't one of the main weaknesses of a battleship, a weakness to smaller faster ships of EVE a core thing? That's the reason why cruisers are so effective right now anyways. They apply well enough to frigs and dessies but they tank enough to out last them generally, while they are faster and small enough to mitigate most of the Battleships DPS. T3's just amplify it to an extravagant level. It's like your asking for a really really big cruiser. Yeah it would take care of T3's being a problem but itself would take it's place. A Versatile ship capable of doing everything moderately effectively at once. It didn't work T3's it didn't work with T3D's why would work with a T3BS? Although I love see new stuff added to the game, CCP REALLY needs to work on making changes for current balances. T3's got a bit of a pass, but as side from the Tengu getting a rather good Balance pass, they all still need help. IMO that should be the priority right now. I have been saying it for years but if people really think battleships need help to make them viable in their eyes then the thing you need to do is whack t3 cruisers several times with the nerf bat. Buffing battleships to take on t3 cruisers will simply result in very overpowered battleships. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 0	Posted - 2015.12.19 21:15:22 - [14] - Quote YES! Absolutely agree with Valkin Mordirc and baltec1! The current T3 need to be nurfed some more. T2 should be better at the roll of being specialized in their class. T2 DPS ships should always out DPS a T3 or out tank, out logi, out ewar them. A T3 should be able to effectively combine and use two or three of these together and be an overall stronger ship. In normal situations, unless your fitting a T2 to hunt down specific T3's, T3's should be the champ in any 1v1 fight. To counter that strength I think the best way to balance them is to lose SP when you lose a ship, and cant insure them, and with a Hull price that has a pretty price tag on them. With that said, I think the T3 cruisers need a nurf to their EHP and T3 Destroyers a nurf to their DPS. T1 stuff should not even be close to comparison to T3. However, about 5 T1s should be able to team up on a T3 in its class and have it beat. T3's should always be compared to T2 when considering its place in Eve. Pirate Ships should be unique and special and even do what its meant to do better then any other T class and still be priced between T2 and T3's. T3s should be the choice ships for solo work in the game given the SP/ISK. They should be Swiss Army Knifes, good at a lot of things but a master of none, but the overall best bang for the one ship you can only fly one at a time. This T3 BS I'm proposing is not going to out DPS a Marauder. Or out Tank it. Its not going to out range snipers, out do ewar or anything else for that matter. I would love a BS that could jump a system and on the other side be a small gate camp and be able to take that fight. Its counter should be that your average gate camp wont have enough to take it on and will either lose the fight, or fly away. Now if that gate camp happened to be 20 dudes, then ya, by by T3 BS. This BS should easily hand its own in Lev 4 missions and rat Null sec with ease. But it should not replace carriers for their roll in solo WH Ratting. But a T3 BS vs a Carrier should be a good fight! And because T2 should be the best in their ship purpose should still be the choice for fleet compositions. Pirate and T3s, given the extra costs and risks should be able to hold there own when strategically applied well against T2 fleets when out numbered. That's why they need to be in the game. If a fleet of 50 T2s shows up, and you got only 20 buddies, it would be wise to use Gorilla Tactics with more expensive Pirate/T3's and work to fight them not to the strengths of the T2's. (T2 fleet strength will depend on composition and tactics apply from competent FCs) Eve has many counters, the trick is to use them. Sure balances are necessary, but only so much to the point where they are beneficial. Its easy to look at ship A vs ship B and say one is more powerful then the other, and harder to see that there maybe a reason that one ship needs to be stronger. Might be getting a little off topic, but if The Imperium can effectively Viceroy the rest of Null and even push their influence in Low, how in Eve can that be countered? Remember, where ever a Citadel is made, they effectively can enforce a tax on it or they will come for it. (I personalty think this is a great evolution to the story of Eve btw.) The only way is to counter this is restrict T3 sales to the open public markets and force The Imperium to use their T2's and Caps. WH & their T3's are Eves way of countering Empire Null. Empire Null monopolizes T2 Production, WH monopolizes T3. If the Powers of Null Sec Alliances put the rest of Eve under their thumb, it will be WH and their T3's to counter that and thus, T3 ships do need to be strong. CCP has created a wonderful sand box for us to play in, and the more I try to reverse engineer their ships and changes to Eve, the more I see they are trying to influence a plot: A Universe where Player Owned Corps/Alliances/Collisions are the Power in Eve. But to keep Eve alive and well for years to come, that Power (from Null) needs a counter. It is up to the rest of Eve to decide to make The Imperium their enemy and use the resources from WH and fight back against Null. WH wont be strong enough to evict Null Alliances, but will be enough to keep their Power from growing. If Null Powers grow and we the players don't counter, then it is we, the Eve players that have failed to play the game! The tools are available for both sides of this war! T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks! Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 290	Posted - 2015.12.20 03:44:44 - [15] - Quote Only players who don't like to fit heavy neuts and webs on their BSs think T3Cs are OP. Again I say the only thing that makes T3Cs OP is their ability to receive logi from external sources. If you take that away they're actually underpowered. Before any new BSs are added, CCP needs to do something (anything) for T2 BCs. Edit: Shouldn't this post be moved to F & I??
Valkin Mordirc 1747	Posted - 2015.12.20 05:10:36 - [16] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Only players who don't like to fit heavy neuts and webs on their BSs think T3Cs are OP. Again I say the only thing that makes T3Cs OP is their ability to receive logi from external sources. If you take that away they're actually underpowered. Before any new BSs are added, CCP needs to do something (anything) for T2 BCs. Edit: Shouldn't this post be moved to F & I?? I have both Tengu's and Proteus that will destroy almost battleship, even if that battleship is properly fitted. T3's are OP. Saying that they are not is trollish. Just because you have a heavy neut doesn't mean you automatically win against a T3. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 0	Posted - 2015.12.20 06:08:13 - [17] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Only players who don't like to fit heavy neuts and webs on their BSs think T3Cs are OP. Again I say the only thing that makes T3Cs OP is their ability to receive logi from external sources. If you take that away they're actually underpowered. Before any new BSs are added, CCP needs to do something (anything) for T2 BCs. Edit: Shouldn't this post be moved to F & I?? I have both Tengu's and Proteus that will destroy almost battleship, even if that battleship is properly fitted. T3's are OP. Saying that they are not is trollish. Just because you have a heavy neut doesn't mean you automatically win against a T3. You sound like you know what your doing with your T3's. Would you agree they have too much tank? T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks! Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode ISD Community Communications Liaisons 6726	Posted - 2015.12.20 06:16:23 - [18] - Quote Thread has been moved to Player Features and Ideas Discussion. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1146	Posted - 2015.12.20 07:36:34 - [19] - Quote We have the T3D's that we know need rebalancing. We also have the t3 cruisers which can generally outperform any subcap if fitted correctly. Now, my proposal on t3 cruisers is to actually change them to battlecruisers. Then, you'd be able to balance their speed and sig to better fit their capabilities. As far as the idea of a t3 BS... I like it, and I hate it.. I hate it because the. We come back to this OP ship that sits in game blapping stuff and it takes a year or 4 in order for CCP to rebalance them. However, if done correctly they could be nice. Couple of ideas on this: 1) 3 racks of high slots for small, medium, and large weapons.. 2) NO utility highs... This is a gun boat, and it's versitility would lie in those guns. 3) 30 second delay on rack re-alignment, thus you can continuously hot swap. 4) Perhaps this ship would rely on Bastion. It gives us another ship to use bastion on, but also helps to counter-act the weapon versatility 5) not the highest DPS. Balanced to be moderate DPS with each weapon system.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 17062	Posted - 2015.12.20 11:25:46 - [20] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Before any new BSs are added, CCP needs to do something (anything) for T2 BCs. Nerf t3 and t2 BC are fixed too. Infact most hull balance issues are fixed by nerfing t3. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 969	Posted - 2015.12.20 13:05:40 - [21] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: ...If its built right, T3 BS should not effect the use of Machs, Apoc, Rattles, and Vindis. But if you look at data for ship uses you will find BS are way way down at the bottom of the list.... I am sorry to be a mean girl but you shouldn't believe what you see on some list someone created to make a point. I can make make another list and show you how awesome they are. Other that cargohold, signature resolution (not size damnit, look it up what that value does) and some minor tweaks to the base targetting range battleships are fine as is. Maybe a 2 day old character shouldn't be flying them and making proposals that would undo everything that happened since Crucible. EVE does not need a tech 3 battleship for the sake of tech3 - zee END. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 0	Posted - 2015.12.21 07:28:22 - [22] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Bobman Smith wrote: ...If its built right, T3 BS should not effect the use of Machs, Apoc, Rattles, and Vindis. But if you look at data for ship uses you will find BS are way way down at the bottom of the list.... I am sorry to be a mean girl but you shouldn't believe what you see on some list someone created to make a point. I can make make another list and show you how awesome they are. Other that cargohold, signature resolution (not size damnit, look it up what that value does) and some minor tweaks to the base targetting range battleships are fine as is. Maybe a 2 day old character shouldn't be flying them and making proposals that would undo everything that happened since Crucible. EVE does not need a tech 3 battleship for the sake of tech3 - zee END. That list came from CCP and it detailed damage from all the different ship classes and BS are ranked one of the least used. Battleships are fine, they do their roll. But they are shackled to their roll and that roll is not used in daily life unless your a full time mission runner. For the PvP community its mostly Cruisers and under. Bring out the BS's when there's a show of strength. And most FC wont undock a fleet of BS without adequate logi. And not to be a mean boy, but where are you getting off making any comparisons to a 2 day old character? Bet there are not too many 2 month old characters that fly BS let alone suggest proposals to the game. Anyone with half a mind would understand Eve is too massive to emanate random changes for their own good as they don't comprehend the game in the least. The games going to evolve whether you like it or not. Being apart of its evolution and making suggestions and tweaks and putting up a valid reason for them is just what Eve needs. Its a 10+ year old game and dying. If you want to keep it alive, your going to need to bring in new players, and most of these new players will have likely given a try to Eve before and have failed the "Eve Learning Cliff". IF they come back, they need that 'something' that was not there before. More content, more possible 'things' in Eve, the better. People play Eve cause they are inspired about some content within it. BS content is limited. That needs to change. T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks! Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 17068	Posted - 2015.12.21 09:19:03 - [23] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: elitatwo wrote: Bobman Smith wrote: ...If its built right, T3 BS should not effect the use of Machs, Apoc, Rattles, and Vindis. But if you look at data for ship uses you will find BS are way way down at the bottom of the list.... I am sorry to be a mean girl but you shouldn't believe what you see on some list someone created to make a point. I can make make another list and show you how awesome they are. Other that cargohold, signature resolution (not size damnit, look it up what that value does) and some minor tweaks to the base targetting range battleships are fine as is. Maybe a 2 day old character shouldn't be flying them and making proposals that would undo everything that happened since Crucible. EVE does not need a tech 3 battleship for the sake of tech3 - zee END. That list came from CCP and it detailed damage from all the different ship classes and BS are ranked one of the least used. Battleships are fine, they do their roll. But they are shackled to their roll and that roll is not used in daily life unless your a full time mission runner. For the PvP community its mostly Cruisers and under. Bring out the BS's when there's a show of strength. And most FC wont undock a fleet of BS without adequate logi. And not to be a mean boy, but where are you getting off making any comparisons to a 2 day old character? Bet there are not too many 2 month old characters that fly BS let alone suggest proposals to the game. Anyone with half a mind would understand Eve is too massive to emanate random changes for their own good as they don't comprehend the game in the least. The games going to evolve whether you like it or not. Being apart of its evolution and making suggestions and tweaks and putting up a valid reason for them is just what Eve needs. Its a 10+ year old game and dying. If you want to keep it alive, your going to need to bring in new players, and most of these new players will have likely given a try to Eve before and have failed the "Eve Learning Cliff". IF they come back, they need that 'something' that was not there before. More content, more possible 'things' in Eve, the better. People play Eve cause they are inspired about some content within it. BS content is limited. That needs to change. What is this one role you think battleships fill? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2145	Posted - 2015.12.21 09:51:04 - [24] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: Battleships are fine, they do their roll. But they are shackled to their roll and that roll is not used in daily life unless your a full time mission runner. For the PvP community its mostly Cruisers and under. Bring out the BS's when there's a show of strength. And most FC wont undock a fleet of BS without adequate logi. FC's wont undock a fleet of anything without adequate logi.... Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 971	Posted - 2015.12.21 12:53:31 - [25] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Bobman Smith wrote: Battleships are fine, they do their roll. But they are shackled to their roll and that roll is not used in daily life unless your a full time mission runner. For the PvP community its mostly Cruisers and under. Bring out the BS's when there's a show of strength. And most FC wont undock a fleet of BS without adequate logi. FC's wont undock a fleet of anything without adequate logi.... or they undock 3 archons for one Megathron and 3 cruisers, you can never be sure enough.. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1697	Posted - 2015.12.21 13:22:11 - [26] - Quote We flew a lot of BS over the past week and had a lot of fun. They seem to be working just fine for me (perhaps I'm using them incorrectly?!?). It was small gang stuff w/ around 10 ships or less in fleet. A few BS and a few supports. Nothing fancy, but fun as all get out. BS are excellent at pulling in fights. If the only role you can find for them is tasty bait - I'm not seeing a problem. They are pretty awesome for pwning frigates and t3d. Running straight away from a BS seems to be a thing these days and I love it!
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 1	Posted - 2015.12.22 00:17:43 - [27] - Quote baltec1 wrote: What is this one role you think battleships fill? I think over all they play a role as heavy fleet tank/dps. More suited to Fleets and solo Mission runners. Which is fine, from what I can see I have not little tweaks I would want to change to the current BS line up. However, as mentioned, their overall use in Eve is a small fraction. I just want to see that fraction get a little larger with a T3 BS that is capable in the ways that I have mentioned. The gap should not jump from Cruisers to Caps like it does now. And like I said, I think the best counter to a T3 BS is a small feet of T1 BS thus increasing the uses for all BS all the while not hurting what they do now. Serendipity Lost wrote: We flew a lot of BS over the past week and had a lot of fun. They seem to be working just fine for me (perhaps I'm using them incorrectly?!?). It was small gang stuff w/ around 10 ships or less in fleet. A few BS and a few supports. Nothing fancy, but fun as all get out. BS are excellent at pulling in fights. If the only role you can find for them is tasty bait - I'm not seeing a problem. They are pretty awesome for pwning frigates and t3d. Running straight away from a BS seems to be a thing these days and I love it! And that's awesome! But would you ever undock in a BS solo? Not so fun without being part of a small gang with around 10 ships with support... T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks! Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2073	Posted - 2015.12.22 04:56:02 - [28] - Quote Eve is not balanced around solo combat. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 972	Posted - 2015.12.22 04:59:51 - [29] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: ...And that's awesome! But would you ever undock in a BS solo? Not so fun without being part of a small gang with around 10 ships with support... I did - ooops I'll show you how this looks hopefully very early next year when I get the editing done. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 17082	Posted - 2015.12.22 08:28:08 - [30] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: I think over all they play a role as heavy fleet tank/dps. More suited to Fleets and solo Mission runners. Which is fine, from what I can see I have not little tweaks I would want to change to the current BS line up. However, as mentioned, their overall use in Eve is a small fraction. I just want to see that fraction get a little larger with a T3 BS that is capable in the ways that I have mentioned. The gap should not jump from Cruisers to Caps like it does now. And like I said, I think the best counter to a T3 BS is a small feet of T1 BS thus increasing the uses for all BS all the while not hurting what they do now. . BS can already do everything you want them to. The T3 BS you want would be ridiculously overpowered in the hands of people like me. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1705	Posted - 2015.12.22 12:36:40 - [31] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: baltec1 wrote: What is this one role you think battleships fill? I think over all they play a role as heavy fleet tank/dps. More suited to Fleets and solo Mission runners. Which is fine, from what I can see I have not little tweaks I would want to change to the current BS line up. However, as mentioned, their overall use in Eve is a small fraction. I just want to see that fraction get a little larger with a T3 BS that is capable in the ways that I have mentioned. The gap should not jump from Cruisers to Caps like it does now. And like I said, I think the best counter to a T3 BS is a small feet of T1 BS thus increasing the uses for all BS all the while not hurting what they do now. Serendipity Lost wrote: We flew a lot of BS over the past week and had a lot of fun. They seem to be working just fine for me (perhaps I'm using them incorrectly?!?). It was small gang stuff w/ around 10 ships or less in fleet. A few BS and a few supports. Nothing fancy, but fun as all get out. BS are excellent at pulling in fights. If the only role you can find for them is tasty bait - I'm not seeing a problem. They are pretty awesome for pwning frigates and t3d. Running straight away from a BS seems to be a thing these days and I love it! And that's awesome! But would you ever undock in a BS solo? Not so fun without being part of a small gang with around 10 ships with support... So you're looking for a solo BS pwnmobile? Then (because they are bigger) dreads should be even better pwnmobiles. Next you'll want Dreads with 3 siegable main guns, a rack of 5 medium guns for those pesky BS and cruisers that dare to enter your grid, and of course some sort of point defense because it's unfair that a frigate would be able to do anything but die horribly in the presence of such gradure! Frigate - fast, low damage - ideal for solo stuff Cruiser - small, versatile, many varieances - can be made to brawl, snipe, kite and so on - has solo options BC - you're getting bigger and slower, but packing more firepower - there are some litte things that can tackle you and give you a bad day if you're not careful. BS - big, slow and respectable dps/tank - there are a lot of ships that can outmanuever you - there are a few situational solo options, but you're big and slow enough that support is recommended. Dreads - solo = loot pinata - support ships required Carriers and drone based BS - have the option to deploy anti frigate damage (small drones). While a carrier can by design have an endless supply of warrior 1s, a BS can not. These ships have a smaller degree of survivability without support, but to a good gang w/ average skills and brains - still a loot pinata. So you see, the BS is on that slippery slope just barely hanging on to solo abilities under certain conditions. It's the bridge between 'Small fast' and 'large needs support'. It is the middle ground. You need to embrace what it is and that it is better with support. That's how it will always be. There have been instances over eve's history where a BS here or there popped into solo status (bee hive domi, nano phoon and so on), but these were patched out as OP. Overall a lot of you folks are asking for BS to be OP. BS do best with support. Based on the progression of the game they have stepped aside as the damage dealers in large fleet fights and been replaced by dreads and carriers. If you really want to bring BS back into mainstream null fighting you'll have to do some painful (but in my opinion good for the game) things: 1. Remove space magic from citadels. If your citadel holding your stockpile of alliance archons gets blown up - you archon fleet should be half destroyed and half floating in the wreckage of the station. Until these vast warehouses actually become exposed to risk - there will be no place for BS. It's just better to stockpile caps than BS. If your alliance gets attacked would you rather hand out high powered assault rifles or combat knives? Totally safe storage dictates you stockpile the big expensive stuff. 2. Get rid of system upgrades. There is too much isk coming into the game AND there is no such thing as bad space in eve right now. You can make good isk anywhere and there is pretty much no need to fight over identical space. It's all just alloted out and has become farmville in space. There is no need to take your neighbors stuff, there is currently enough for everyone. 3. Get rid of the tools that fuel the great arsenals - botting and moon goo. Botting is obvious bad for the economy and passive static monopolized isk income is too. (I don't want to start a moon goo debate - there are plenty of those elsewhere) Uptweaking BS stats won't suddenly make them better than a capital fleet and making them solo pwnmobiles will in the end **** off more folks than it makes happy. If some of the core eve issues are addressed - BS might creep back toward their prior place of glory. BS stats are balanced and in a good spot for the ship class - some other parts of eve are out of whack and making them appear bad.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1705	Posted - 2015.12.22 12:38:08 - [32] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Bobman Smith wrote: I think over all they play a role as heavy fleet tank/dps. More suited to Fleets and solo Mission runners. Which is fine, from what I can see I have not little tweaks I would want to change to the current BS line up. However, as mentioned, their overall use in Eve is a small fraction. I just want to see that fraction get a little larger with a T3 BS that is capable in the ways that I have mentioned. The gap should not jump from Cruisers to Caps like it does now. And like I said, I think the best counter to a T3 BS is a small feet of T1 BS thus increasing the uses for all BS all the while not hurting what they do now. . BS can already do everything you want them to. The T3 BS you want would be ridiculously overpowered in the hands of people like me. If they put a t3BS in your hands - you'd just cover it w/ lotion and disappear for weeks. You're not fooling anyone.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 17083	Posted - 2015.12.22 12:49:17 - [33] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: baltec1 wrote: Bobman Smith wrote: I think over all they play a role as heavy fleet tank/dps. More suited to Fleets and solo Mission runners. Which is fine, from what I can see I have not little tweaks I would want to change to the current BS line up. However, as mentioned, their overall use in Eve is a small fraction. I just want to see that fraction get a little larger with a T3 BS that is capable in the ways that I have mentioned. The gap should not jump from Cruisers to Caps like it does now. And like I said, I think the best counter to a T3 BS is a small feet of T1 BS thus increasing the uses for all BS all the while not hurting what they do now. . BS can already do everything you want them to. The T3 BS you want would be ridiculously overpowered in the hands of people like me. If they put a t3BS in your hands - you'd just cover it w/ lotion and disappear for weeks. You're not fooling anyone. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2074	Posted - 2015.12.22 14:06:49 - [34] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Bobman Smith wrote: I think over all they play a role as heavy fleet tank/dps. More suited to Fleets and solo Mission runners. Which is fine, from what I can see I have not little tweaks I would want to change to the current BS line up. However, as mentioned, their overall use in Eve is a small fraction. I just want to see that fraction get a little larger with a T3 BS that is capable in the ways that I have mentioned. The gap should not jump from Cruisers to Caps like it does now. And like I said, I think the best counter to a T3 BS is a small feet of T1 BS thus increasing the uses for all BS all the while not hurting what they do now. . BS can already do everything you want them to. The T3 BS you want would be ridiculously overpowered in the hands of people like me. To be fair, it would also be totally overpowered in the hands of people like me. And that is saying something. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 1	Posted - 2015.12.22 20:41:39 - [35] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Bobman Smith wrote: ...And that's awesome! But would you ever undock in a BS solo? Not so fun without being part of a small gang with around 10 ships with support... I did - ooops I'll show you how this looks hopefully very early next year when I get the editing done. Yes, I would not mind seeing that. Serendipity Lost wrote: ..... Uptweaking BS stats won't suddenly make them better than a capital fleet and making them solo pwnmobiles will in the end **** off more folks than it makes happy. If some of the core eve issues are addressed - BS might creep back toward their prior place of glory. BS stats are balanced and in a good spot for the ship class - some other parts of eve are out of whack and making them appear bad. You make many valid points I completely agree on. I'm not asking for a revamp of the class to change its roll as it does have its place in the Eve Ship line up. I'm just trying to see a bigger balancing picture that effects the counter to large scale Alliances and the resources they have in terms of bring out fleets that out number the small guys. Would one really expensive BS really effect the BS class? I doubt it. Would a strong solo T3 BS (expensive loot pinata for a small counter T1 BS counter gang) be any different then T3 cruisers or T3 Destroyers? I think most of Eve is missing the point/purpose of T3's. There meant to counter larger Null Alliances. Eve players are still a little behind of the times. Your average T3 producer should NOT be supplying the public market with T3 goodies so large Null corps can buy them so easily. We should be restricting Null Fleets to their T2's and Cap Fleets. The Imperium is going to tax the entirety of Eve if Eve does nothing to stop them. T3s are a long implemented counter in the event that the inevitable powers from Null seek to control more then a few Null Constellations. WH are the vain of Null. Its just nobody see it yet... And if Eve fails to see this, then Eve will die as fewer and fewer people are going to want to pay a tax to play the game outside of High Sec... We NEED T3 BS! T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks! Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 981	Posted - 2015.12.23 01:56:26 - [36] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: ..Yes, I would not mind seeing that... You are not the only one. Miker and Zaqq were helping me on the editing part and now I need to put some music into the video. It will be short but even short ones take some time to edit and flash out. At least when this is done I'll have room for new footage - lost a ton when my other drive died. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1713	Posted - 2015.12.23 16:51:06 - [37] - Quote Bobby You have some wild ideas. I think the rabbit hole is a bit deeper than you imagine. Right now WH space is going through a wierd transition - I'll be honest I can't quite see where it's headed atm. Right now aside - who do you think has been primarily owning/controlling wh space? There are a few independants, but over its history, the bulk of wh systems have been owned by members of large null blocks. I'm not saying a major alliance controlled wh space - I'm saying most of wh space was controlled by players with interests (characters) in large null alliances. WH space was not (for the most part) populated by anti null HS folks. I hope you can see the logic in that. I'll use myself hypothetically. (Disclaimer - the following is just made up - no tin foil hats required) Pretend I have a character that is a director in a large SOV group. I have way more accounts than I know what to do with. I put some into these new wh things back when they were introduced. Woot, freeballin' smashmouth pvp w/ no strings. So I set up a system and stay a while. Me and my sov null buddies put a bunch of characters in the wh corp and it's a great diversion from the null hoo haw. (during this period of time null forms a blue donut and becomes stagnant) I'm playing both sides of the fence. Do you really think with my close ties to SOV null alliances I would give up a lucrative railgu production line just to bring my other self to my knees? I'll give you the punch line. SOV null is boring. From cyno jammers to timers of interest to upgrades (which make ALL of sov null good space and NONE of sov null space worth fighting to take) to blue donuts and so on. We've conned CCP into making a great farmland in the interest of maintaining accounts. There currently isn't really a compelling reason to initiate conflict in SOV null. Feel free to name one if you can come up with something. I'll give you the moral of the story. Anyone playing the game for a decade has a few mature alts. The mains stay in SOV null winning eve and the alts go one of several paths to actually have fun. RvB (where everyones alts became blue donut BFFS), marmites (or a marmite style HS player farming corp), FW for the frigate heads and last but not least - wh space. You hold SOV in null to show that you are winning eve and you go have fun in one of the above mentioned places according to your interests. (Incursions - some null guys stopped off there for a bit, but very few stayed - hard core farming like that just wears most players down) So good times are had on alts and once every 8 months or so someone goes bonehead causing someone else to call for an underpants on heads response and it snowballs into BR. Those fights aren't strategic. They are one group capitalizing on anothers bad move. There's no meaningful anything, just occaisional happenstance. The bane (vain??) of sov null alliances would be HS incursions. It's just awesome isk for no risk. A lot of folks get drawn in and don't get pulled to null. The saving grace that keeps sov null folks out of incursions for the most part is the large requirement of time spent in mind numbing rat shooting. There are just better things to do. There is no 'anti null' purpose behind T3 in general. Choking the market won't affect sov null at all.
Bobman Smith Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 1	Posted - 2015.12.24 00:16:11 - [38] - Quote Perendipity Lost wrote: Words You do make some good points that I have not considered too much of as of yet. I'll have to ponder over them for awhile. Just note: My objective is to encourage/push an anti Imperium campaign for 2 reasons. Content for both sides. And to counter/resist a superpower that is capable of preventing any other power to grow large enough to threaten it. There is a monopoly of power that is growing and growing and will grow till Eve is dead. A dead Eve is not a fun Eve. T3 Destroyers should cost aprox 160M. Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Remove Insurance from game. Undocking should be risky with no paybacks! Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Have more then 1 Clone in a station without loss.
Romana Erebus Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops 50	Posted - 2015.12.24 01:04:15 - [39] - Quote Say no to dishonor drone battleships .
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1716	Posted - 2015.12.24 14:53:12 - [40] - Quote Bobman Smith wrote: Perendipity Lost wrote: Words You do make some good points that I have not considered too much of as of yet. I'll have to ponder over them for awhile. Just note: My objective is to encourage/push an anti Imperium campaign for 2 reasons. Content for both sides. And to counter/resist a superpower that is capable of preventing any other power to grow large enough to threaten it. There is a monopoly of power that is growing and growing and will grow till Eve is dead. A dead Eve is not a fun Eve. Introducing a ship or class of ships won't do that. The imperium will just monopolize them like they have anything else. You would just be feeding that machine another tool to continue the work they are currently doing. You have to make SOV pvp desirable, meaningful and worth it. You have to change the game so that massive SRP are no longer a thing. You have to change the game so that taking space is more attractive than renting it. Here's a wierd thought. Timers for SOV and structures are to allow the defenders a 'fair' opportunity to defend their space in their prime time. With large conglomerates is this really necessary? Did the 'prime time' argument go from valid 5 years ago to a way to currently bin pvp into timers of interest for afk players to log in for at their leisure? Has the time for a defenders ablity to set timers passed? Would it save SOV pvp if the agressors could set a fixed unvariable timer into motion? Would it be that bad if defenders had to get up in the middle of the night to protect their assets? Would taking total timer control away from the defenders and giving some of it to the agressors be a bad thing (It might lead to more... you know.... agressor pvp). Eve has changed over the years, maybe it's time some of the core mechanics change with it. A T3 BS can't fix what is broken. There are some things that perhaps could.

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