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Kaaii
Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.01.17 23:21:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Machanara Well, lets put it this way folks.....everyone knows that people will fit ships when they hear of a way they can kill others and not be killed( not often at all) Everyone will do it. Thatis how you know you have something that is being used that was not per design. Everyone in Eve does it and then 1000 whining threads about it.
Well, everyone is now nanoing/stabbing ever single ship they can get their hands on. Raxs doing 7km/s, Phoons doing 5km++/s, cerberus doing 5km/s...the list doesnt end. THIS is how you know something needs to be nerfed. Exact same way they had to nerf Sensor boosters, tracking comps, WCS, DMG mods...and that list keeps going too. Again, why?? becasue everyone, their mother, brother and dog abused it. Nothing different here with nanos/ISTABS and you can damn well expect a nerf on them too.
Dont blame the whiners...blame yourselves for abusing it.
Wow,
Four pages, and some very intresting arguments, both pro and con, but id have to agree with this posters comments most of all. Sometimes it not about whether you can be allowed something, but whether you should...
Kaaii
Trading 101
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.18 00:14:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Nev Clavain on 18/01/2007 00:12:16 Edited by: Nev Clavain on 18/01/2007 00:11:04
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nev Clavain The complexity of the counter is proportional to the pricetag of the ship.
Exept this is exactly not the case. As said, the effect/isk ratio of nanoBS is far far FAR above anything else. Please do any non-nano shipsetup for 300 or even 500 mil (inculding shiprice after insurance) which cannot be killed by 3 t1 fitted BS and is able to kill them.
Nosdomi could do it I'm pretty sure with a hefty tank, or any Nos battleship. Of course depends on how the three t1 battleships were setup, and skill of the pilot and many other variables. This is what I'm saying, you can theorise all day like this and get nowhere. For me the proof is in the pudding that it really doesn't take moving a mountain to kill a nanoBS.
And honestly I dispute that a nanoBS can take on and kill 3 other bs pilots that know what they are doing, t1 or otherwise. They simply aren't that good, they are just irritating. Kill the drones and you are half way there to making him toothless.
Whoops i broke my promise - i just cant stay away!! (edit) ah page 5 was worth it lol
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.18 00:37:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Nev Clavain Nosdomi could do it I'm pretty sure with a hefty tank, or any Nos battleship.
You kinda answered yourself, they would simply kill it's drones. And/or outnos it, which isn't too unlikely. In short, basically the same tactics they can use against a nanodomi/phoon.
But the big difference here: if the nos-tank domi is loosing his ship will go boom. A faction tank won't help him. If a nos-nano-domi or a nos-nano-phoon - which do not less damage than a nos-tank-domi or nos-tank-phoon - is loosing it can retreat.
Same isk spent, same dps, higher survivability. Which is the core problem of nanosetups, they gain something for nothing.
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CharlieMurphy
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.01.18 01:07:00 -
[124]
hmmm 5 pages already
i dont fly nano phoons cause i dont think they are very good but i have experimented with set ups and i had trouble out running cruise missiles, no rigs no snake set
i have tackled nanophoons in a stiletto with an afterburner on it and 3 light nos in the highs he drained my cap in 1 cycle of his mighty e500s (12 second cycle time) and then my small knaves sucked back enough to keep 1 of my 2 webs and my scram running (3 sec cycle time)
yes thats right! an inty that costs probably less than 10 mil including its set up tackled the amazing invincable nanophoon long enough for friendlys to arrive and finish the job
this is a whine thread, the average nanoship sucks imo and people that manage to get some insane set up by spending vast amounts of isk are either mental or too rich if you whiners manage to get ccp to nerf stabs and nanos im going to be sad
resist the whine!
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.18 01:43:00 -
[125]
Originally by: CharlieMurphy i have tackled nanophoons in a stiletto with an afterburner on it and 3 light nos in the highs he drained my cap in 1 cycle of his mighty e500s (12 second cycle time) and then my small knaves sucked back enough to keep 1 of my 2 webs and my scram running (3 sec cycle time)
If you were able to catch a typhoon with an stiletto with an *afterburner* it was everything but no nanophoon.
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TorpSpammer ExtraordinR
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Posted - 2007.01.18 03:41:00 -
[126]
-rapier -serker sw-900 + your own mwd+web -better nanoBS with more nos -big short range guns -lag
*POP*
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Leto Twin
Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.18 03:53:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Nev Clavain
Originally by: Leto Twin stuff
yeah have you flown one? no obviously not if you think putting rails on there is anything but a waste of time.
Try hitting something with even small railguns while orbitting at 3500 m/s. Large ones, forget about it.
I wish people would actually fly the damn things themselves before coming here to whinge about stuff. Its incredibly frustrating trying to argue against people who have no clue what they are talking about, and sit their listing supposed strengths that are simply fabrication on their part.
The only thing of my post you responded to was the rail guns. Again, with a nanodomi, or a domi in general, guns are not the DPS for it. As was said by another poster.
Inside scram range is inside nos range. Pop, crap, there goes another interceptor. And another, and another. Damn, the thing just warped out. Fast as the interceptors would've, only they were popped by something that need a good swing of the nerfbat.
I won't fly them, because I resolve not to. My fights are picking and choosing with ships that can pick and choose, ones that are supossed to. Inties > gate camps. Are BSes supossed to be? Aligning as fast as a shuttle and warping like an inty?
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.18 08:35:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Nev Clavain on 18/01/2007 08:32:07
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nev Clavain Nosdomi could do it I'm pretty sure with a hefty tank, or any Nos battleship.
You kinda answered yourself, they would simply kill it's drones. And/or outnos it, which isn't too unlikely. In short, basically the same tactics they can use against a nanodomi/phoon.
But the big difference here: if the nos-tank domi is loosing his ship will go boom. A faction tank won't help him. If a nos-nano-domi or a nos-nano-phoon - which do not less damage than a nos-tank-domi or nos-tank-phoon - is loosing it can retreat.
Same isk spent, same dps, higher survivability. Which is the core problem of nanosetups, they gain something for nothing.
What you are asking for here, is that a ship - with the specific purpose of being fast, should be nerfed to the point that it can be caught by ships that are slow. At which point you take speed out of the equation as a useful tactic alltogether.
Yes the nanodomi can escape, and is likely to leave before killing anything. Thats why you would fly a nanodomi
The nosdomi would stay and take at least one or maybe two of your battleships before dying.
So Nosdomi- 1 battleship lost = 1 battleship lost
and NanoDomi- no battleship lost, to no battleship lost. I don't see the imbalance. It is you assumption that a nanodomi had the power to jump in, kill everything, and then flee that is just plain wrongwrong. Most fights where outnumbered result in nanodomi running around, although you do catch the odd pilot who makes a mistake.
YOu are making it out that a nanodomi can work against vastly superior odds and get kills everytime. This is simply not the case.
ONLY if the pilots he is fighting against make some pretty bad and elementary mistakes - which any other kind of ship could capitalise on too!
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.18 08:43:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Leto Twin
Originally by: Nev Clavain
Originally by: Leto Twin stuff
I won't fly them, because I resolve not to.
Good for you my morality. Your expertise on the subject of NanoBS comes from where exactly?
How can you properly know their strenght and weakness if you have never even attempted to fly one?
I fly one, and im telling you for real, you ignore fast tacklers like inties at your peril. Especially heavy fast tacklers like stabbers. It takes one web, one web for 20 seconds to slow you down to the point that you are in serious trouble, and then pop goes your 500 mill ship in a matter of moments.
Fully setup my BS as about the hitpoints of a tier 2 battlecruiser, with normal resists, no repair except shield regen. Think how quickly that dies.
Yes you might pop a tackler, but if you lose your 500 million isk ship because of it - was it worth it? hell no.
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Domalais
Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.01.18 08:50:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Sure, but 5k/sec is with implants. If you want to compare ships using implants, lets talk about a Raven or a Rohk using crystals to completely negate whatever damage the other ship does.
Okay, let's talk about a Raven using crystals. How much isk (including implants) will the Raven pilot need to spend in order to permatank a 4 nos nanophoon?
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.18 11:16:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Aramendel on 18/01/2007 11:14:05
Originally by: Nev Clavain What you are asking for here, is that a ship - with the specific purpose of being fast, should be nerfed to the point that it can be caught by ships that are slow.
Could you please finally stop stating I said stuff which I never did? It's getting annoying.
No, I didn't. I said multiple times that it's advantage of being able to escape has to be balanced with a disadvantage, not removing that advantage.
As said, you cannot keep the cake and eat it. One possible option would be to nerf the agility boost so nanoBS cannot orbit within WD range with more than 2km/s so in turn to keep their speed high enough to be effective they would need to make strafing runs which gives their target an window to escape. Then their high survivability would be balanced by a likewise high survivability of their target. Unless they form 2 man teams and time their flybys so always one has a WD on their target. But that would be ok because it actually requires some teamwork and skill.
Quote: Yes the nanodomi can escape, and is likely to leave before killing anything. Thats why you would fly a nanodomi
The nosdomi would stay and take at least one or maybe two of your battleships before dying.
So Nosdomi- 1 battleship lost = 1 battleship lost
and NanoDomi- no battleship lost, to no battleship lost.
Nosdomi and nanodomi have *identical* nospower and dps. So how in earth can one kill a BS and the other cannot? If 3 BS can kill a nanodomis drones before they can kill one of them they can do the same with the nosdomis drones.
And in either case we are talking about 300 mil ships each there. So the nosdomi kill 1 t1 BS - loss after insurance perhaps 40 mil at worst - while loosing oneself 300 mil. The 3 BS pilot will probably even make profit from it's loot after using to to pay for the ship loss. The nanodomi is loosing nothing.
Originally by: Domalais Okay, let's talk about a Raven using crystals. How much isk (including implants) will the Raven pilot need to spend in order to permatank a 4 nos nanophoon?
Wrong question. The correct question is "Can it tank a 4 nos nanophoon?" The answer is: no. Crystal implants do not help much when you have no cap.
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.18 12:51:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Aramendel
Nosdomi and nanodomi have *identical* nospower and dps. So how in earth can one kill a BS and the other cannot? If 3 BS can kill a nanodomis drones before they can kill one of them they can do the same with the nosdomis drones.
Yes but this disadvantage you are asking for, and the key point here, is that one ship can tank the damage of 3 t1 battleships for quite some time, while the other cannot.
Sure The tank or the Speed (the things negating the damage) both rely on Cap Booster charges, of which the nanodomi can carry less because it will likely have 1 or two overdrives fitted.
Basically if 3 battleship pilots have trouble with a nanodomi, they are idiots. A Nosdomi is a different proposition. Perhaps then we should also nerf NOS as something is badly wrong with them too (which for the record I am against), but I doubt you would like that one little bit as a curse pilot. And after NOS what next? and then after that what next? With this kind of attitude there will always be something that has advantages that will cause complaints, and if we must nerf everything what are we left with - a very dull game.
NanoDomi are easy enough to kill. That is the key issue, and what everyone keeps forgetting in these theoretical ramblings. However a one on one battleship fight isnt going to kill it because you are using the wrong tool for the job.
but still i'm sure you have an answer to all of this because we are never going to agree are we :P I realised this some time ago, but my beliggerent nature keeps bringing me back to try and get the last word
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.18 14:09:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Aramendel on 18/01/2007 14:06:50
Originally by: Nev Clavain Sure The tank or the Speed (the things negating the damage) both rely on Cap Booster charges, of which the nanodomi can carry less because it will likely have 1 or two overdrives fitted.
You are forgetting something.
A gist B or C type 100MN MWD needs 48 cap/second with lvl 4 in the skill. 2 faction LAR need 80 cap/second - unless you are telling me that you can tank the dps of 3 BS with 1 LAR?
The nanodomi can carry 18 800 cap charges. The nosdomi 23.
The nosdomi needs 66% more cap/sec than the nanodomi. The nosdomi can carry 27% more cap charges than the nanodomi. Guess which one will run out of cap charges first. Hint: it's not the nanodomi.
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Vito Parabellum
Fivrelde Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.18 15:18:00 -
[134]
Hehehe this happens all the time in a lot of games, but specially in eve where afterthought is the predominant thought :p A feature is put in the game that changes other facets of the game and make them unbalanced or unwanted. The conservatives complain about gameplay being changed (whiiinzeors, adapt or die!), the users and inventors of said feature (xploiters!!) adamantly push for the preservation of it so that they can continue using this new found path of least resistance.
In this case the cycle started with the mulitple mwd nerf. We had battleships zooming around firing torps at ppl that could not hit them back. Thoraxes doing 0-190 kms in 10 seconds and some scorpions that just didn't stay in grid for more than a couple of seconds. This was not wanted and was subsequently nerfed. There was a lot of discussion on how this was the end of eve, that the liberty of fitting your slots as you wanted was thrown out the window, the hauler pilots said the 15km haul to the gate was too long without a couple of small mwds fitted, etc etc. I wanted to clutch on to my multiple mwd ship too and never let go. In retrospect this change turned out for the better, because frankly having a hulking battleship outrunning and outmanouvering every normally fitted ship, looks silly and takes from the game. Yeah, despite it being fitted with the best of the best.
The base modules like webbers and scramblers had certain speeds in mind when their range and effect were decided.
After this came the faction modules(?), implants, the boost to inertial stabilizers and the speed rigs. All these small side effects have pushed up speed and agility back to square one. And unless Tux is out somewhere in azn flying a nanophoon this will get a quick, in eve terms, bump of the nerfbat, or I will eat my hat. And when this happens, there will be a lot of complaining, threats to quit the game and flamage to the left and right, but it's all normal :)
Until that happens you can find me in my nanocurse zipping around ;) ------ Simply by pulling on both ends, Chuck Norris can strech diamonds back into coal.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.01.18 16:36:00 -
[135]
Consider for a moment, the reason that damage modules have a stacking penalty....(I'll give you a hint, it's big, golden, packs 8x Heatsinks...)
...now why should nano's/IStabs be any different? ----------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.01.18 16:44:00 -
[136]
Edited by: LUGAL MOP''N''GLO on 18/01/2007 16:40:55
There are very easy ways to counter a nanoed ship.
It is a specialty setup, so you need a specialty setup to take it down. Sounds fair and balanced to me ~~~~~~~~~ Caldari. It's so easy a Minmatar could do it. |
Dr Felonius
Caldari Civilian Purposes Limited
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Posted - 2007.01.18 19:38:00 -
[137]
This is just theoretical, but why not a Scorpion to jam the nanophoon, allowing an interceptor to close to easy web range, allowing the Scorp's cruise missiles to pop the 'phoon?
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Domalais
Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.01.18 20:00:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Dr Felonius This is just theoretical, but why not a Scorpion to jam the nanophoon, allowing an interceptor to close to easy web range, allowing the Scorp's cruise missiles to pop the 'phoon?
1. Smart nanoship pilots run an eccm. Those who don't, will run when they see jamboats.
2. One missed jam and your interceptor is space dust.
3. Scorp dmg output is simply terrible.
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Miyazuki Otaru
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Posted - 2007.02.08 18:58:00 -
[139]
I have a perfect nerf for ALL the fast flying ships. Longer skill times... Just ask Albert Einstein about it.
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Ashiana
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Posted - 2007.02.08 20:05:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Domalais
Originally by: Dr Felonius This is just theoretical, but why not a Scorpion to jam the nanophoon, allowing an interceptor to close to easy web range, allowing the Scorp's cruise missiles to pop the 'phoon?
1. Smart nanoship pilots run an eccm. Those who don't, will run when they see jamboats.
2. One missed jam and your interceptor is space dust.
3. Scorp dmg output is simply terrible.
1) Smart nanoship pilots also run a sensor booster. Two, if possible. And a shield tank, and cap injection, and multiple long range scrams. They do this because they have 12 midslots. Yarr!
2) Because the lock time on a nano-bs is great. Especially as it has no sensor booster on it, because it's packin' eccm. Minmatar ships are also especially known for high sensor strength and lock range. Also, the now-webbed nano-bs will be able to insta-pop the inty before another jam cycle, even with the inty orbiting at 5k/sec and possibly nossing the nano-ship back for cap.
3) Because the nano-bs has a great tank, being unable to shield boost, armor rep, or pack hardeners, extenders or plates.
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.08 20:42:00 -
[141]
The only problem here is... With a huge gatecamp, even 30 guys a nano-whatever can escape.
It doesn't matter if you have 4 huginns because they can't target him before he's at 90km...
In order to actually catch one, there's nothing you can do but wait for the nano-whatever pilot to make a mistake. If he doesn't make a mistake he survives. If he makes a mistake, you still have to take him on (thus, he has a chance).
So what does the nano-whatever give you? - Heavy tackling ability - Near impunity to gatecamps (especially in highsec) - The ability to determine your fights - Ability to solo anything smaller than a BS, and some BS's as well. - Tackle interceptors - If you don't screw up you don't lose. - If you do screw up, you don't necessarily lose. ~~~~~~~~~ Ya. It's like that. |
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.02.08 20:55:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Dr Felonius This is just theoretical, but why not a Scorpion to jam the nanophoon, allowing an interceptor to close to easy web range, allowing the Scorp's cruise missiles to pop the 'phoon?
Because in most situations an interceptor can't catch the nanoship, and second of all... Even if they do, they have to get within web range (10km) which means nos, which means dead interceptor.
Also, the nano-phoon I encountered was running at 5,280m/s which means a 90% web would still put him at 528m/s.
By the time your ceptor catches him he'll be out of range. 5280m/s means he'll be at 100km in less than 20 seconds.
Even if you have 10 rigged ceptors that can catch him, he's already warped before you get in range of scrambling. The only way to catch these things is to wait for them to make a mistake and have enough people there to capitalize on it.
1) Here's a scenario, I'm in my huginn and I have a BS for support. Nano-ship makes a mistake and comes within 34km of me. I web, but I can't scram = he warps.
2)I'm in my huginn with BS and ceptor support. Nano-ship makes a mistake and comes within 34km. I web, ceptor gets to the Nano-ship and scrams. Nano-ship nosses ceptor = dead or useless ceptor = no scram = nano-ship warps.
2a)I'm in my huginn with BS and ceptor support. Nano-ship makes a mistake and comes within 34km. I web and approach, ceptor gets to the Nano-ship and scrams. Nano-ship nosses ceptor = dead or useless ceptor = no scram. This time, I'm able to get within scram range.
Here's the problem - I've got him, but he's got me worse. I hit scram, our ceptor warps to save. Out come the drones, he scrams me, he nosses me. All he has to do is determine if he can tank my BS support for enough time to take me down. IF he can't, he turns around, MWD's and saves his hide (My huginn can't web if I don't have any cap).
~~~~~~~~~ Ya. It's like that. |
Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.08 21:01:00 -
[143]
I wish yelling "nerf" got you permabanned. :P
[OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!] |
Kunming
Outcasts
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Posted - 2007.02.08 21:07:00 -
[144]
Nerf NOS, give it a drawback or counter and things will be magically fixed.
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Mordrake
MetaForge Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.08 21:37:00 -
[145]
You want Ballance... doubble all Web Mod Ranges.
Untill that happens a good Nano pilot is able to easily run from any Huggin packing gang or decimate a gang lacking one at his liesure.
"Arte et Marte" |
Hesed
Hamartia.
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Posted - 2007.02.08 23:29:00 -
[146]
If pulse lasers can hit them, then they're ok. Increase the Istab sig penalty plz.
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