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Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:07:00 - [1] Edited by: Kaaii on 16/01/2007 23:05:21 So you've no doubt seen these, battle ships screaming along at the speed rivaling some top notch interceptors, a fine article on this was written by an allince mate here, So, Good? Bad? or just screaming for a stacking penalty/nerf? (much to the screaming of the current users...) /discuss Trading 101
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:27:00 - [2] I blame inertia stabilizers for this. Oh and any arazu jock worth a damn would have at least two sensor damps on target, a jam can be missed.
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:34:00 - [3] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan I blame inertia stabilizers for this. Oh and any arazu jock worth a damn would have at least two sensor damps on target, a jam can be missed. isn't dampening enough to trigger drone attack anyway? But yes, as the article pointed out, its pretty much ridiculous, seeing a BS out run ceptors. I also think its a repsonse from the 8 stabathon community looking for the "next best thing" Trading 101
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:37:00 - [4] Edited by: Aramendel on 16/01/2007 23:35:15 While I personally argue against nanoships I must say the article is bad, because it has a few errors in it. - the scoop/redeploy tactic does not work with nanoships because they are 6 times as fast as ogres. They would have to slow down to "normal" speeds to egt them - which makes them quite vulnerable. Killing the drones is a viaable tactic vs them. - for fitting he forgot rigs which have a major effect on them. 3 t1 MWD rigs ("vent") give it ~45% higher speed - almost as much as a highgrade snake set. - you do not need ECM if you have a lachesis or arazu. If webbed by a minnie recon they can completely disable it with damperners. In fact, a minnie and gal recon together should be able to kill a nanoship alone, they do not much dps, but a nanoship has no tank. It will take a bit to chew through its hitpoints, but it will die. Of cource, the same is the case for any other (non-nano) BS if caught by a minnie/gal recon tagteam, it's not a weakness unique to nanoships. Originally by: Kaaii isn't dampening enough to trigger drone attack anyway? AFAIK drones (and FOF missiles, for that matter) do not attack targets outside a ships targeting range. But I am not 100% sure there.
Gadfly Hawke G-Tek Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:38:00 - [5] There is no physical reason why a battleship can't fly as fast as an interceptor, so long as a thrust is applied. The only speed difference should be the time that it takes a BS to achieve the speed of light compared to the time that it takes an interceptor. G-Tek is recruiting
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:42:00 - [6] Originally by: Gadfly Hawke There is no physical reason why a battleship can't fly as fast as an interceptor, so long as a thrust is applied. There is a physical reason why a BS can't be as agile as a ceptor, though. Inertia. If you take physics into the picture a BS should only be able to make strafing runs - starting 50k away, acellerating, flying by, doing some dps, breaking, stopping 50k away. Nevermind that a physics argument is pretty pointless here. SPace behaves in reality also not like it is filled with water like eve space does. The game is not based on reality in the first place.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.16 23:47:00 - [7] nah...someone has to go from "yellow flashy" to "red flashy" for the drones to go tearing off on their own. That's assumeing the nano pilot didn't target and give a attack order before all the jamming/damping started. That said web/scram/jam/damp the hell out of the nano ship if possible then kill off the drones or force a "return to dronebay" order. Both outcomes pulls the nano BS's teeth nicely.
Sebmagic Caldari In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2007.01.17 01:29:00 - [8] You don't need inertia much in space... so it shouldn't be much of an issue anyways....
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.17 01:44:00 - [9] That's hilarious, you don't need a such a huge gang to kill a nano-ship. Once you have it webbed and scrambled you can tear through it's non-existant tank like tissue-paper. Tanking Survivability Calculator
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.17 01:44:00 - [10] That's hilarious, you don't need a such a huge gang to kill a nano-ship. Once you have it webbed and scrambled you can tear through it's non-existant tank like tissue-paper. Tanking Survivability Calculator
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.17 01:49:00 - [11] "That's hilarious, you don't need a such a huge gang to kill a nano-ship. Once you have it webbed and scrambled you can tear through it's non-existant tank like tissue-paper." That's a bit like saying you don't need more than one ticket to win the lottery... once you pick the right numbers, you're all set -.^ (while technically true, easier said than done)
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.17 01:54:00 - [12] A single ship can annoy one enough via damping/ECM at beyond drone control range to force it to go someplace else for kills. The tatic worked wonders on vagas during RMR.
Ice Conch	Posted - 2007.01.17 01:59:00 - [13] Originally by: j0sephine "That's hilarious, you don't need a such a huge gang to kill a nano-ship. Once you have it webbed and scrambled you can tear through it's non-existant tank like tissue-paper." That's a bit like saying you don't need more than one ticket to win the lottery... once you pick the right numbers, you're all set -.^ (while technically true, easier said than done) except the probability of having an available huginn/rapier pilot online in your alliance is a lot higher than winning the lottery
Leto Twin Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 02:55:00 - [14] I hate them. Gangs of nanophoons can wreck anything in it's path, unless they are outnumbered 5:1. Nerf nanos. They are the new WCS.
Gut Punch Gallente The Revenant	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:39:00 - [15] Is everyone so uncreative that they can't fight someone just a little outside the box? One of these hyped up battleships are so vulnerable. Not only that, they are some of the most expensive setups you can make. The easiest way for you to wax one of these things, using the senerio presented in the OP's link, is to fix the loadouts of the ship in the group. First, each of those ships involved should have their own Webber, if not more than one. Don't target the Dom first! His drones, being heavys, are slower than snot. Target the drones, fire missiles at the drones, and Web the drones so you can hit them with your turret weapons. If everyone starts pooring the fire into the drones, and pulverizes a couple of them, the Dom has a couple of choices. Either he will recall his remaining drones, count his losses (which are more than most of your fleet), and leave OR he will close to NOS range in an attempt to save his drones. If he choses to get into NOS range, then you can throw a party knowing that you can cost this guy a ship and fittings far more expensive than your entire fleet. Everyone switches their webs to the Dom and there weapons follow. His complete disreguard for tanking, increased signature radius, and over worked capacitor will give you the opportunity to give him the damage before his NOS can force you out of the fight. Your battleship should be able to eat this guy alive. If he tries to deploy more drones, your other ships can use their missiles on the new drones while still keeping the Dom webbed. Once the Dom has lost his inertia and can be held by two or three webs, you can again switch some of the webs to his drones and cost him some more money. It comes down to you just hammering away at the webbed Dom until he pops. Sure there is a good chance you could lose a ship from your fleet, but the costs of a frig or cruiser pale to the cost your fleet just gave to the guy who lost several T2 Heavys, a battleship, and all of his expensive fittings. The problem I see isn't with the nanos. It with you and your squadmates not building loadouts that enable them to cope with someone who comes at you with something outside the box. --- Gut Punch The Revenant --- Playing as Caldari is EVE on Easy Mode...
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.01.17 03:47:00 - [16] Edited by: Blind Man on 17/01/2007 03:52:53 lol @ the argument about the INVINCIBLE DEATH WAGON!!!1111(LOL) the whole thing written to say this 1)Now go fly out and try not to be an idiot and get killed, since then your opponent gets massive gloating rights. .... 2)This maneuver, as difficult as it is to pull off and using such specialized shipsà is the only way to kill any non-retarded nanoship pilot. both of those mess up the whole argument..saying you need skill to fly one and if you are a noob you die a quick and embarrassing death show that they aren't the 'invincible death wagons' the article leads you to believe they are. àat least until the eventual nerf wrecks you for infinite damage and makes you spill tiny, tiny tears. When that comes, may I suggest you invest in a Tiny Violin II? Many people will offer good prices, but little pity. Have fun while it lasts. lol. my favorite part about nerf-nano posts. anyone who thinks nerfing nanoships will change anything for experienced pvp corps is sadly mistaken, gangs will just get bigger and bigger as much as the target area requires, filled with heavy tanking hard hitting ships like sleipnirs, absolutions, astarte, geddons, megathrons, etc. gl hf.
Arian Snow The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:06:00 - [17] I think the whole problem with Nano/Istab BS's is that they can pick and choose their fights, and they are near impossible to catch. If they are on the loosing end fx. they just disengage and get the **** out! I dont think their offensive and tanking capabilities suffer enough to get that kind of advantage. (yes 4-5K m/s makes for a mean tank!) People have been whining over a highly specialized 300M Isk ship, but now that the Phoon and Domi can do they same everyone goes Weeeee... Something is wrong in the state of Eve when BS's go faster than interceptors, simple as that! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:13:00 - [18] time to apply a NOS penalty on nano setups ( that would make the tank run less and therefore hit the speed limit of these things) would make it a bit more tactical without a direct nerf
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:32:00 - [19] Can we keep the nano-crying to one thread, please? I'm finding it hard to reply to them all and showing it's easy enough to take out a nanoship with two ships of virtually any class. ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
Leto Twin Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:38:00 - [20] I know plenty of good ways to kill them if they are in 2 or 3s, but any gangs of them larger than that and they can *****and pillage anything in their path. I think it is just an excuse. Nanos = the new WCS. BSes are not supossed to move at 4km/s. They are not interceptors that have a starting speed of 500 m/s. They usually start at much closer to the 200 m/s range.
Aries Acheron Caldari The Valour United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:42:00 - [21] NanoBS pilots are quite adamant about their setups. :) Let me explain the issue here, really. Even with 'your whole gang carrying webs'... you're still deploying a gang against a single ship. A single ship that can defeat many types of ships, and withdraw effortlessly from those it can't. That's a mighty strong power. Interceptors are beloved for it, but they're lightly armed, and literally instantly explode if a single good hit is placed on them. Your battleship meanwhile has enough HP to get the hell out of dodge if something catastrophic happens such as bumping a roid for a second and losing it's speed. Let's not forget webs have only a 10 km range, unless you're using either a faction web, or a minmatar recon. Now, since a warp disruptor has a 20km range, your NOS has at least a 20km range, and your ship moves about as fast as a cruise missile (at least!)... why would you ever fight within 10km range? Not to mention most nanosetups that get beyond 5k are still able to withdraw from a big ship that has a web, or NOS-out a small ship with a web. I do believe most of those points stand. A half-assed nanoship with an idiot pilot will get killed, just like any ship. A decent nanoship with an average pilot can decimate everything short of a large gang, or flee without consequence. See the issue? ~~~ Action! Suspense! Jita! http://survive-eve.blogspot.com/
Leto Twin Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Aries Acheron NanoBS pilots are quite adamant about their setups. :) Let me explain the issue here, really. Even with 'your whole gang carrying webs'... you're still deploying a gang against a single ship. A single ship that can defeat many types of ships, and withdraw effortlessly from those it can't. That's a mighty strong power. Interceptors are beloved for it, but they're lightly armed, and literally instantly explode if a single good hit is placed on them. Your battleship meanwhile has enough HP to get the hell out of dodge if something catastrophic happens such as bumping a roid for a second and losing it's speed. Let's not forget webs have only a 10 km range, unless you're using either a faction web, or a minmatar recon. Now, since a warp disruptor has a 20km range, your NOS has at least a 20km range, and your ship moves about as fast as a cruise missile (at least!)... why would you ever fight within 10km range? Not to mention most nanosetups that get beyond 5k are still able to withdraw from a big ship that has a web, or NOS-out a small ship with a web. I do believe most of those points stand. A half-assed nanoship with an idiot pilot will get killed, just like any ship. A decent nanoship with an average pilot can decimate everything short of a large gang, or flee without consequence. See the issue? <3! Thank you. You expressed it ways that I tried to, and failed (so I posted what I did, above).
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.17 04:51:00 - [23] The solution is to beam all the i-stabs and nanos over to the Klingon ship, where they'll be no tribble at all. (I hope you don't change the topic! ) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Ephemeron The Syndicate Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:10:00 - [24] Applying stacking penalty to agility modifier would be the easiest and best step in right direction. Even if that won't solve the issue entirely, it would make things better without major game changes.
Leto Twin Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Ephemeron Applying stacking penalty to agility modifier would be the easiest and best step in right direction. Even if that won't solve the issue entirely, it would make things better without major game changes. And speed/intertia attributes?
Daelmon Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:35:00 - [26] Bad. Nerf Nanos.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:50:00 - [27] Don't nerf nanos. My dear CEO uses them to hunt down**abonds and interceptors. Playing Caldari-Online** as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore (aka. stupid).
Leto Twin Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 06:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Kuolematon Don't nerf nanos. My dear CEO uses them to hunt down****abonds and interceptors. It would slow down Vagas, too. Because they often use nanos, no? And I am going to have to steal some of your kills for that comment?
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2007.01.17 07:36:00 - [29] Originally by: Leto Twin It would slow down Vagas, too. Because they often use nanos, no? And I am going to have to steal some of your kills for that comment? You get Sadao from my cold dead hands! Playing Caldari-Online as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore (aka. stupid).
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.01.17 07:59:00 - [30] have em if fitted the penalty could either be a NOS nerfing and or a nerfing to tracking speed ( moving quicker = harder to hit) - sensor damps are useful to
Alain Deloen	Posted - 2007.01.17 08:00:00 - [31] - stacking nerf? you'll actually drive the last one to using a split i-stabs'n'nanos fitting for even more wooooosh - speed or agility nerf? expect a revenge of the traders - typhoon nerf? people will just switch over to the dominix and people will find out it's even more evil a speedy ship can pick its fight - so what? it's the matari way. other races have their huge tanks. as soon as racers are trapped, they're dead. and especially @ the caldaris: it's not my fault you chose massive amounts of shield and dumbfire missles over speed. now don't be surprised your inties can't keep up with a highly specialized BS. but yes - there is something foul in the state of denmark: a vampire nerf will render 80%+ of these threads obsolete.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.17 09:32:00 - [32] Industrialists whine about stuff. Pirates whine about stuff. Now we have PvP combat pilots whining about stuff. Just goes to show we're all carebears deep down. The OP's message can be summed up as "whaaa, whaaa, someone worked out a clever way to fit their ship using the skills and modules provided to them - nerf them!" Boo hoo. It's obvious that there are disadvantages to the nano BS and arguing about the reality of space flight in this game is a non-starter. Personally I've been using nano BS for several years now. The only difference is that I use them for travelling. An Apoc with all its low slots fitted with nanos or more lately inertials gets from A to B quite quickly -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Neon Genesis Gallente Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.01.17 09:49:00 - [33] Deploy a bibble and use minny recons?
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2007.01.17 10:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Neon Genesis Deploy a bibble and use minny recons? bubbles take several minutes to deploy .... A few remote sensor damps and he will go away (or get close if he's stupid) And neon m8, you need a tan
Chancer Minmatar Blueprint Haus Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.01.17 10:27:00 - [35] One possible solution would be to have a maximum safe speed. Once the ship goes over that speed, it starts to take structure damage.
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.17 10:42:00 - [36] Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 17/01/2007 10:40:02 needs stacking penalty. minmater ARE the speed race however this is reflected in their speed bonii and naturally faster/lighter ships, not their ability to fit 4nanos and 3 iStabs. ______________________________________
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 10:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Sebmagic You don't need inertia much in space... so it shouldn't be much of an issue anyways.... Inertia is THE main force in space which is limiting movement. Originally by: Alain Deloen it's the matari way. other races have their huge tanks. Exept a regulary tanked phoon tanks in no way worse than a domi or scorp. And a good deal better than an arma.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2007.01.17 13:27:00 - [38] Let me begin by saying that I don't fly a nano pvp ship so have no vested intrest in defending them. I do have a couple of heavily nanoed haulers for runs into 0.0 tho. However I really am saddened to see the number of whines about nano ships. It seems that everytime a fitting concept is developed that breaks with the standard gank/tank mould a lobby develops to nerf. This is not good for the game. Enforcing a doctrine that all fights should be toe to toe contests of dps vs tank leads to boredom and stagnation. The reaction to seeing a new and successful ship concept should not be to scream for a nerf but to figure out a counter. Having fought nanophoons - lost once, drove them of the second I see them as a challenge. Challenges and variety are what make life, and games, interesting. If long term we don't see practical counters evolving then maybe CCP will need to make a few minor tweaks but please people lay off the demands for urgent and major nerfs to nanos and Istabs. They are not only used on nano pvp ships. A nerf to nos has already been mooted,(again I hate the way a bandwagon has emerged against vampire fits but there is a little more justification in this case), and this will have an impact on nano setups. So the next time you see an enemy phoon burn past your camp at 4km a second dont think "thats cheating - nerf it", but rather "clever setup - now how do I catch him next time".
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem	Posted - 2007.01.17 13:56:00 - [39] Originally by: Leto Twin I hate them. Gangs of nanophoons can wreck anything in it's path, unless they are outnumbered 5:1. Nerf nanos. They are the new WCS. all i hear is: "wah, wah, wah, i don't wanna!" they're easy to kill, just because they have a different method of defending themselves - i.e. if they can't out gun it, they can out run it. welcome to eve, where you don't always win. and no, i don't have one, i don't have enough faith in their survivability, quite frankly. ========================================== Iy
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 14:10:00 - [40] I don't like nano-BS. Why? Is it because they're unbalanced? Maybe, but not really my main problem. Is it because I can't counter them with anything? Maybe, but plenty of suggestions as to nano-killers are around, so thats not really it either? Is it because they look bloody ridiculous? Yep, thats the one. This game has a few certain rough laws to it. Roughly speaking- small ships can accelerate fast, and have a good top speed, but have low max-damage and low HP. Large ships accelerate slowly and have a lower top speed, but have higher HP and DPS to compensate. What a nanophoon or similar has is a big tank (BS sized HP + speed tank is pretty tough, unconventional or not), big damage (whichever way you look at it, they can still fit as much weaponry as any "slow bruiser" of a BS- more even, considering the low fitting reqs of nanos and IS) and a top speed that can outrun most standard fitting interceptors ("fastest" ship in the game). Whichever way you look at it, thats broken. And yes, watching something the size of a phoon or domi travel at 5km/s looks absolutely ******* stupid. Now this came up once before, some people will remember- with multiple MWDs fitted. What did CCP do? They made it so you could only use 1 MWD at a time. All I want is to see a stacking penalty on nanos so that ships can still move fast, but not stupidly fast. -----------------------------------------------
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.01.17 14:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Gadfly Hawke There is no physical reason why a battleship can't fly as fast as an interceptor, so long as a thrust is applied. The only speed difference should be the time that it takes a BS to achieve the speed of light compared to the time that it takes an interceptor. There also is no physical reason why the crew doesn't turn to fudge inside those ships. Yes a nerf would be in order.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 14:53:00 - [42] Hey I have a simple solution: Suck it up and stop whining. Lets start by dispelling a few myths: 1) Nano Battleships are faster than interceptors - No, No they aren't. They are faster than a badly setup interceptor with poor skills. Put that bad inty pilot in a nano domi, and guess what, he doesnt go very fast at all. 2) OMG Nano BAttleships are invincible!!11 - No, No they aren't. Far from it. Anything that can scramble it and stay out of NOS range and beat its shield regen will kill it. A crow with a faction scram for example. And boy if you get it webbed by a damage dealer with a reasonable tank, its so finished its not true. 3) Nano Battleships pilots are the new WCS pilots - and whiners are the same old whiners. You people need to remember that a nano BS has to scramble its target to stand a good chance of killing it. that means getting within 20 - 30km. Thats should give a friend a very good chance of getting within web range. Web it and its finished. Whiners need to ask themselves that after nanos have been nerfed - what's the next thing they can't cope with, and the next thing, and the next thing. It's never ending until this game is nothing more than everyone line up and activate guns, and most isk and skills wins. How boring is that? The reason I defend nanobattleships? Because I fly one and they are fun, and I know first hand their limitations, and the extreme cost of an effective setup. They are weak, they lack firepower, they are hugely expensive and a great amount of isk risked and lost if destroyed. They carry great mods so a tasty reward for anyone who kills them. They are next to useless in certain scenarios like close-in belts and stations where they bump into objects and get thrown into close range of their targets. They are as vulnerable to EW as any ship, their firepower can be destroyed. On the plus side they are great fun, and they allow you the ability to take on larger groups of players with a chance of escape, and a chance of a few kills (but remember what is being risked). Basically I get the impression, as with most whines, that the whiners aren't capable of flying the ships they are complaining about, and therefore object that other people can. The same rediculous invulnerability claims were made about sniping battleships, despite the fact that they also are paper thin and only useful in their specific bubble. A hugely specialised ship and pilot in their specific role OUGHT to be good at what they do. What is wrong with that.
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:05:00 - [43] Originally by: Nev Clavain Hey I have a simple solution: Suck it up and stop whining. Lets start by dispelling a few myths: 1) Nano Battleships are faster than interceptors - No, No they aren't. They are faster than a badly setup interceptor with poor skills. Put that bad inty pilot in a nano domi, and guess what, he doesnt go very fast at all. 2) OMG Nano BAttleships are invincible!!11 - No, No they aren't. Far from it. Anything that can scramble it and stay out of NOS range and beat its shield regen will kill it. A crow with a faction scram for example. And boy if you get it webbed by a damage dealer with a reasonable tank, its so finished its not true. 3) Nano Battleships pilots are the new WCS pilots - and whiners are the same old whiners. You people need to remember that a nano BS has to scramble its target to stand a good chance of killing it. that means getting within 20 - 30km. Thats should give a friend a very good chance of getting within web range. Web it and its finished. Whiners need to ask themselves that after nanos have been nerfed - what's the next thing they can't cope with, and the next thing, and the next thing. It's never ending until this game is nothing more than everyone line up and activate guns, and most isk and skills wins. How boring is that? The reason I defend nanobattleships? Because I fly one and they are fun, and I know first hand their limitations, and the extreme cost of an effective setup. They are weak, they lack firepower, they are hugely expensive and a great amount of isk risked and lost if destroyed. They carry great mods so a tasty reward for anyone who kills them. They are next to useless in certain scenarios like close-in belts and stations where they bump into objects and get thrown into close range of their targets. They are as vulnerable to EW as any ship, their firepower can be destroyed. On the plus side they are great fun, and they allow you the ability to take on larger groups of players with a chance of escape, and a chance of a few kills (but remember what is being risked). Basically I get the impression, as with most whines, that the whiners aren't capable of flying the ships they are complaining about, and therefore object that other people can. The same rediculous invulnerability claims were made about sniping battleships, despite the fact that they also are paper thin and only useful in their specific bubble. A hugely specialised ship and pilot in their specific role OUGHT to be good at what they do. What is wrong with that. So basically you need a Crow, rare compared to a Typhoon and a faction scrambler, again rare compared to a Typhoon to be able to counter a run off the mill Typhoon, sounds balanced to me...
Xiaodown Dragons Of Redemption Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:13:00 - [44] Your myth dispelling doesn't hold up. Originally by: Nev Clavain 2) OMG Nano BAttleships are invincible!!11 - No, No they aren't. Far from it. Anything that can scramble it and stay out of NOS range and beat its shield regen will kill it. A crow with a faction scram for example. And boy if you get it webbed by a damage dealer with a reasonable tank, its so finished its not true. [...] You people need to remember that a nano BS has to scramble its target to stand a good chance of killing it. that means getting within 20 - 30km. Thats should give a friend a very good chance of getting within web range. Web it and its finished. Hey, genius. NOS range is 24km. Scrambling a nanoBS won't do any good - the problem isn't keeping it from warping, the problem is holding it still. You show me a web that webs at 24km, without requiring a Minmitar recon ship, and then we'll talk. WARP SCRAMBLING DOES NOT SLOW A SHIP DOWN. THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT THE NANOSHIP WARPS OFF, IT'S THAT YOU CAN'T HIT IT BECAUSE IT'S GOING SO FAST. How do you get in web range when the thing is 23km from you and going 5000m/s? Well, you have to go FASTER than 5000m/s, AND be able to catch it, AND be able to tank the damage from its drones, AND be immune to its NOS so that your MWD keeps running long enough to catch it. Originally by: Nev Clavain The reason I defend nanobattleships? Because I fly one and they are fun, and I know first hand their limitations, and the extreme cost of an effective setup. SHOCKER. You fly one, so you don't think it should be nerfed. You like your I WIN button.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:14:00 - [45] Originally by: Wendat Huron So basically you need a Crow, rare compared to a Typhoon and a faction scrambler, again rare compared to a Typhoon to be able to counter a run off the mill Typhoon, sounds balanced to me... GRRRR, its not a run of the mill typhoon that does 5km/s. Proof that you don't or have not flown one or have the first clue to set one up. Nano Battleships cost 100s of millions to setup to a good speed. We are talking lows full of local hull nanos and inertials and overdrives. We are talking 100mn faction mwd @ 70-150 mill. Rigs worth another 150 mill. We are also talking a good month of skill specialisation. Also the really fast pilots you see will have a full snake set too, so add billions on top of that. Where the hell you get the idea that these really fast battleships are 'run of the mill' I don't know. That is the point here is they are highly highly specialised and so are very good at what they do. And still a crow setup total cost under 100 mill can beat it down. It is perfectly balanced if you have the brains to figure out a way to kill one. If you don't have that intellectual ability, then i can see why it all seems terribly unfair.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:21:00 - [46] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 15:19:43 Originally by: Xiaodown Your myth dispelling doesn't hold up. Originally by: Nev Clavain 2) OMG Nano BAttleships are invincible!!11 - No, No they aren't. Far from it. Anything that can scramble it and stay out of NOS range and beat its shield regen will kill it. A crow with a faction scram for example. And boy if you get it webbed by a damage dealer with a reasonable tank, its so finished its not true. [...] You people need to remember that a nano BS has to scramble its target to stand a good chance of killing it. that means getting within 20 - 30km. Thats should give a friend a very good chance of getting within web range. Web it and its finished. Hey, genius. NOS range is 24km. Scrambling a nanoBS won't do any good - the problem isn't keeping it from warping, the problem is holding it still. You show me a web that webs at 24km, without requiring a Minmitar recon ship, and then we'll talk. WARP SCRAMBLING DOES NOT SLOW A SHIP DOWN. THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT THE NANOSHIP WARPS OFF, IT'S THAT YOU CAN'T HIT IT BECAUSE IT'S GOING SO FAST. How do you get in web range when the thing is 23km from you and going 5000m/s? Well, you have to go FASTER than 5000m/s, AND be able to catch it, AND be able to tank the damage from its drones, AND be immune to its NOS so that your MWD keeps running long enough to catch it. Originally by: Nev Clavain The reason I defend nanobattleships? Because I fly one and they are fun, and I know first hand their limitations, and the extreme cost of an effective setup. SHOCKER. You fly one, so you don't think it should be nerfed. You like your I WIN button. yet another person who cant fly one and therefore has no clue about its weaknesses. My advice to you is go out and try and build a battleship that does over 4000 m/s, then fly it around, and then come back and tell me how 'invincible' it is. Until then you seriously need to shut up. You think it is unbalanced mainly because you don't understand it. All you know is you got owned by one so its unfair. The point about the crow killing it, is that it doesnt need to web it. A fast crow can outpace any nanobattleship. A crow can quite easily reach 8km/s without a snake set. So it can stay out of NOS range. Add a faction scram, and it can scramble out of nos range. Add some good missile skills, and it can hit and do ok damage from outside of NOS range. The point being a nano battleship HAS NO TANK. Beat its shield regen and you are going to kill it, or it is going to run. Or you can use an inty , say a stiletto, to double web and scram for the 20 seconds it will take a tanked damage dealer to get in and put on more webs and scrams. ONce again, Dead nanoBS. A further point I havent mentioned is that nanobattleships require cap booster charges to keep running. When these run out, you are worthless. SO such a ship has a maximum fighting time in combat of about 5 minutes and then it has to go and 'refuel'. Once again you think they are unbalanced because you can't fly one and therefore have no idea of their limitations.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:22:00 - [47] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 15:19:39 Originally by: Nev Clavain A hugely specialised ship and pilot in their specific role OUGHT to be good at what they do. What is wrong with that. What kills a nanoship also kills a normal ship. A nanoship have more viaable targets than a normal ship. A nanoship can escape from more situations than a normal ship. They basically have the cake and keep it. If a nanoship would be, for example, unable to kill normally tanked BS or if their high surviability would be countered by making it also easy to escape from them (for example by making the inertia bonus stacking penalized, so they can use their speed only in strafing runs, but not in orbits in WD range) then you might have some balance. Originally by: Nev Clavain Add a faction scram, and it can scramble out of nos range. Add a faction nos and it will still get sucked dry.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:23:00 - [48] Seriously guys... what speed would be acceptable for a nano battleship? I get the impression that as long as you can kill it, its fine. And if so, why would anyone fit it that way? Why would anyone even pick minmatar when they are about speed, if speed is not allowed to make a difference in combat? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:28:00 - [49] Why would anyone even pick amarr when they are about tanking, if tanking is not allowed to make a difference in combat? Why would anyone even pick gallente when they are about damage, if damage is not allowed to make a difference in combat? Why would anyone even pick caldari when they are about range, if range is not allowed to make a difference in combat? Racial concepts are nice and fine, but when they counter everything else - as speed does - they are too strong.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:29:00 - [50] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 15:19:39 Originally by: Nev Clavain A hugely specialised ship and pilot in their specific role OUGHT to be good at what they do. What is wrong with that. What kills a nanoship also kills a normal ship. A nanoship have more viaable targets than a normal ship. A nanoship can escape from more situations than a normal ship. They basically have the cake and keep it. If a nanoship would be, for example, unable to kill normally tanked BS or if their high surviability would be countered by making it also easy to escape from them (for example by making the inertia bonus stacking penalized, so they can use their speed only in strafing runs, but not in orbits in WD range) then you might have some balance. Originally by: Nev Clavain Add a faction scram, and it can scramble out of nos range. Add a faction nos and it will still get sucked dry. I'm not going on forever with this argument. Suffice to say, if you can't kill one, it is you who has the problem, not some inherent flaw in the game mechanics. In my alliance we fly such ships, and regularly get caught out too. Furthermore we have hunted down and caught such ships ouselves, using a very ordinary gang. I know its possible, and not even that difficult because I have seen it happen at least 5 times in the last two months, from both ends of the spectrum. Your biggest problem is not some game mechanic, but that you are convinced it cannot be done. Your point about faction NOS, while true, shows what is wrong with your attitude: you are focused on thinking why you can't kill a nanoBS, instead of how you can do it. If you don't believe you can do something, then you probably won't.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:31:00 - [51] Originally by: Jim McGregor Seriously guys... what speed would be acceptable for a nano battleship? I get the impression that as long as you can kill it, its fine. And if so, why would anyone fit it that way? Why would anyone even pick minmatar when they are about speed, if speed is not allowed to make a difference in combat? Its not really about minmatar, specifically. nanophoon is the classic, but you can easily setup a nanodomi for much the same effect, and I even say a decent nanoscorp once. Nanophoons are the "WIN" nano ship, but its not just minmatar. -----------------------------------------------
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:32:00 - [52] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/01/2007 15:30:16 Originally by: Aramendel "Making a difference" is a rupture outdistancing a throax and killing it with it's higher dps at 15-20k. A nanophoon orbiting a mega with 5 km/s is not making a difference, it is completly negating what the other ship has. Sure, but 5k/sec is with implants. If you want to compare ships using implants, lets talk about a Raven or a Rohk using crystals to completely negate whatever damage the other ship does. Originally by: Patch86 Its not really about minmatar, specifically. nanophoon is the classic, but you can easily setup a nanodomi for much the same effect, and I even say a decent nanoscorp once. Nanophoons are the "WIN" nano ship, but its not just minmatar. Yeah I know. Im just wondering what speed is acceptable? Because I get the impression that everything that cant be killed 1 vs 1 is judged as unacceptable. And then what good is it...? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:33:00 - [53] About a week ago I was flying my pvp typhoon, setup with torp missles and a heavy tank. I was actually returning home from an active fight and I was about six jumps from my gang. I jumped into system and a single typhoon jumped to the gate. He tackled me, so I figure I was in a fun 1vs1 fight. He pops his drones out, and I start firing 4 torps plus droped my drones out. Then it happens, the typhoon orbiting me at 10km doing 6k a second. The trops just ciricled around me trying to catch the ship, the drones missing every shot. Had two nos on him, but he had at least 4 on me. Wasn't too long before I was dead. I just don't see much of a counter to this ship... I see ways of negating it with nos but see no chance of shooting it down. IF you manage to web it, and then damage it, it just runs off. physics asside, just feel it's a game balance issue... I don't think my torps should hit interceptors, but I do feel they should hit a b.s.
Captain Vampire	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:33:00 - [54] I have flown, got killed by and killed nanoships. In that article I am the halfassed idiot that outfits my ship 50%, I got beta named nanos, E500 nos, and the navigation speed skills at 3 and 4. I even ''only'' use 4 nanos and 2 interias. Still my dominix does 2,5k M/S with my gist ctype MWD (The only expensive stuff in the setup, primarly to save cap). If I pop I loose 60 mill isk, which hasnt happend yet. I got introduced to Mr. Nanofiber through my corp as my traditional battleships were too slow and too clumsy, so I started using it to fit into our fastmoving gangs. The problem is when something is stacked too many times, and nanos are the base of the problems, because it adds to your base speed, then skills, implants, rigs and MWD come upon that. But the basic problem is the fitting... lets set up a nanodominix: MWD, a medium or heavy cap booster, a 20km 5 nanos, 2 interia A dronebay full of nice stuff. Even with as little as this, the ship already succeeds doing the 3 basic things: -Tank -Gank -Tackle Thats pretty good for only using below 2000 powergrid and 100 CPU. So the pilot got loads of powergrid left, the nos got the range and doesnt require tracking so thats a must. 4x Heavy nos Thats pretty heavy stuff, 400-500 energy every 12 sec, hurts your enemies alot and makes you immune to small ship's tackling if you target them fast enough. The power grid is quite depleted now, well used. If you felt factionish you could add 2 corpum nosses for extra drains and giggles. Now we got ALOT CPU left, and 2 mid slots, a luxury problem? What to put here? To counter the only thing that can do damage to you (midsized minmatar guns), a tracking disrputor, for catching haulers on a gate, a sensor booster (and an anti-loggoffski), always getting your fights, but they go after your drones right away? 2 sensor damps to make safe your drones. We still got CPU left, and 2 high slots, so a probe launcher should fit well, who needs covops when you got nanodoms? You got tank, gank, speed, nos, probes, ewar, tackling in one package. Thats as close as you gets to a solopwnmobile. Killing a nanodom: We were in regular dominix and a blasterthorn going after the nanodominix by the gate, it went for 3000 m/s, but we managed to get it webbed by disrupting its orbit. Dying from nanos: My dominix getting tackled by a nanovexor and soon a nanodomi joined the fight, my one heavy nos wasnt even near touching the nanovexors cap as it most likely had cap boosters. Flying a nanodom: Its practical because you can get through the camps and get to the 0.0 ratters, and if you say kill a ratter in a busy system, you can easily get out if too much reiforcement comes. Its also a neat way to travel, no more slow aligning, no more 1 min to get back on the gate, no more deaths because you nearly got out. My solo setup: 4x E500 Nos, 1 tractor beam (wtf?), 1 probe launcher gist ctype 100mn MWD, medium cap booster, 20km, sensor booster, tracking disruptor medium repper (Since I cant outfly everything this really helps me maintaining my tank), 4 nanos, 2 interias No speed implants, no rigs. The only thing that I have to be afraid about is jumping into a really well organized camp with lots of web, or a nanoship thats faster than me, but even then we're kinda nice to eachother as none of us usally got webs so you can disrupt his orbit and warp off to safety. Combat is kinda boring, as you cant really loose a 1v1, I recently took on an Eos (2003 pilot) and broke him down so easily that it wasnt even funny, I wouldnt want that to happend if I had trained for my own command ship. What you have is an interceptor on sterioids, with battleship sized Nos and a dronebay which takes ages to deplete. This needs some fixing, I wouldnt want to undocking in say a blasterthron and redock just because 1 noobpilot can fit his domi with a 5 mill fitting, press orbit, activate his modules and kill me.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:34:00 - [55] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 15:19:39 Originally by: Nev Clavain A hugely specialised ship and pilot in their specific role OUGHT to be good at what they do. What is wrong with that. What kills a nanoship also kills a normal ship but about 10 times faster. A nanoship have more viaable targets than a normal ship as long as it is in open space away from obstructions and objects not including gangs with significant numbers of fast tacklers or minmitar recons. A nanoship can escape from more situations than a normal ship because thats the whole point of the 500 million isk setup. Fixed.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:34:00 - [56] Originally by: Nev Clavain Your point about faction NOS, while true, shows what is wrong with your attitude: you are focused on thinking why you can't kill a nanoBS, instead of how you can do it. The point is that whatever you do you need an higher "effort" to kill a nanoship. If it uses t1 you need t2 to counter it. If it uses t2 you need faction to counter it. If it uses faction you need... Balance is about equal performance at equal skill & equipment lvl.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:40:00 - [57] The solution is easy really. Just nerf the implants. Those are the ones responsible. I mean all implants. Crystal implants too of course. Why should superior tanking be fine when superior speed isnt? Anyway, once the implants are nerfed, things get back to normal and minnie ships still have a slight advantage vs the others. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:44:00 - [58] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 15:41:51 Originally by: Aramendel A decent faction MWD and 3 vent rigs are about 200 mil. 300 mil total with the other equipment perhaps if you incdule insurance payout. As ship prices go nanosetups are not more or less expansive as other stuff. Their effect/money ratio is far far above when you can do with other ships for that price. Lol so your 300 mill setup you propose, (notice no hugely expesnive faction nos) can be countered by a crow setup worth under 100 mill, as I have already described. The problem is what?? I can think of so many solo setups for 300 mill that can counter the nanoBS you describe its not true. The question is why can't you? Start adding gang setups with a total value of under 300 mill and it just gets too easy.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:47:00 - [59] Originally by: Jim McGregor Sure, but 5k/sec is with implants.[/b] 8 km/sec is with (snake) implants. 5k/sec is with a relatively cheap faction MWD and 3 vent rigs. Quote: Because I get the impression that everything that cant be killed 1 vs 1 is judged as unacceptable. And then what good is it...? What good is everything else is there is a setup which kills everything but itself?
Gaia's Wrath	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:53:00 - [60] Hehe, your all funny. I love Nano BS pilots and encourage more people to fly them and to equip those nice and expensive faction MWDs. I have been making nice isks off the loot. FYI like another poster stated Nano BSs are easy to kill, 24 km NOS range hmmm why is it when I kill Nano BSs there NOS range is only about 6 to 8 km (hmmm HINT!!!). One more point if your interceptor can't do 4000 m/s base without gang bonuses go refit your interceptor. Interceptors are all about speed, oh and take 5 minutes to organize your gangs/squads into effective units.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:55:00 - [61] Originally by: Nev Clavain Lol so your 300 mill setup you propose, (notice no hugely expesnive faction nos) can be countered by a crow setup worth under 100 mill, as I have already described. The problem is what?? A domi WD costs 150 mil. A TS nos 70 mil. Good like trying to keep out of nos and in WD range with a SS WD. Also, care to explain what good scrambling a nanoship does without webbing it? Your crow can follow it, true, but your gang will fall behind and not doing much.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:55:00 - [62] Right... well, anyway, to fix the nanoships, they should start with the implants. Those are the ones responsible for every story people come on the forums with, where ships are orbiting at 5-8k per sec being untouchable. And if they nerf speed implants, they need to nerf shield tanking implants as well, because its the exact same thing. Otherwise we will just see everybody switching to those since they become the new rave. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 15:59:00 - [63] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nev Clavain Lol so your 300 mill setup you propose, (notice no hugely expesnive faction nos) can be countered by a crow setup worth under 100 mill, as I have already described. The problem is what?? A domi WD costs 150 mil. A TS nos 70 mil. Good like trying to keep out of nos and in WD range with a SS WD. Also, care to explain what good scrambling a nanoship does without webbing it? Your crow can follow it, true, but your gang will fall behind and not doing much. It has no tank and a crow can beat its shield regen. While it has absoltuely nothing to hit back at a crow doing that speed. Its only option is to head for a gate or station. Now if the gate happens to be covered by a good gang, the nanoBS is in trouble and in for a slow slow death.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 16:00:00 - [64] Originally by: Jim McGregor Right... well, anyway, to fix the nanoships, they should start with the implants. Those are the ones responsible for every story people come on the forums with, where ships are orbiting at 5-8k per sec being untouchable. And if they nerf speed implants, they need to nerf shield tanking implants as well, because its the exact same thing. Otherwise we will just see everybody switching to those since they become the new rave. I agree.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 16:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Jim McGregor Right... well, anyway, to fix the nanoships, they should start with the implants. Those are the ones responsible for every story people come on the forums with, where ships are orbiting at 5-8k per sec being untouchable. And if they nerf speed implants, they need to nerf shield tanking implants as well, because its the exact same thing. Otherwise we will just see everybody switching to those since they become the new rave. I actually agree with that. Implants should be about giving an edge, not about creating whole new setups. If speed implants are responsible for as much as an extra 3km/s (!) on a BS, they're overpowered. If similar overpowering is true of the other implants, they need fixing too. having a head full of implants should not mean the difference between a ship being one thing and being another entirely different thing. -----------------------------------------------
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 16:23:00 - [66] Originally by: Nev Clavain It has no tank and a crow can beat its shield regen. While it has absoltuely nothing to hit back at a crow doing that speed. Its only option is to head for a gate or station. Now if the gate happens to be covered by a good gang, the nanoBS is in trouble and in for a slow slow death. And how exactly is that different to a normal BS? If it is tackled by a factioned out ceptor it cannot do anything either. It will be able to permatank, yes, but it cannot flee from it's gang. In both cases the inty pilot iwll need a supporting gang, in one to break it's tank, in the other to block the escape route. The difference is that you do not need a inty (nevermind a factioned out one) to catch/kill a normal ship. Even if it has an officer tank worth billions.
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.01.17 16:35:00 - [67] if implants are nerfed i want a refund :P
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 16:41:00 - [68] i Said so many times, just change the nano speed bonus to a percentage of the base speed of teh ship. Done. BS will not be able to go so fast but smaller ships will not be affected.!!! If any other limitation is to be done to nanofiber i demand that no more than one repairer may be used per ship. neither more than one shield extender or armor plate. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Gaia's Wrath	Posted - 2007.01.17 16:42:00 - [69] Arrg if the implants as you say get a Nano BS to 8000 m/s ( I am yet to see one, max so far has been about 4200m/s that I have seen)you can still kill them learn to use your interceptors to control a 20km grid of space and herd the BS. If you can't control the ships speed then control the space around the ship and force either it to warp out or herd it to the rest of your gang. Good tactics always beat skill advantages. Eve is more than F1, F2, F3.
Captain Vampire	Posted - 2007.01.17 16:46:00 - [70] I still mean that its nanos that causes this. They are perfectly balanced in ceptors and most ships, but when you got 6+ low slots and you go allout on the speed mods it gets out of hand. Some possible fixes: Makes nanos/Istabs take up a good bunch of your CPU/PG, need to be % to still fit on smaller ships. PG would be ideal so I would kill those Nos heavy/Siege phoon setups. Maybe a reversed stacking penality, so it would have been small first then increased as you stack more nanos in one ship, again a way to still make nanos vaiable for smaller ships. Completly gimp shields and armor aswell, so that nanofibers doesnt only gimp your structure, but your shields and armor aswell (To make it viable using small ships to down a nanoBS) Simply make a limit for 1 nano and 1 istab per ship. This would also help against the uncatchable amarr haulers (curse you all!) with 5 lowslots. Something needs to be done, thats for sure.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 16:55:00 - [71] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nev Clavain It has no tank and a crow can beat its shield regen. While it has absoltuely nothing to hit back at a crow doing that speed. Its only option is to head for a gate or station. Now if the gate happens to be covered by a good gang, the nanoBS is in trouble and in for a slow slow death. And how exactly is that different to a normal BS? If it is tackled by a factioned out ceptor it cannot do anything either. It will be able to permatank, yes, but it cannot flee from it's gang. In both cases the inty pilot iwll need a supporting gang, in one to break it's tank, in the other to block the escape route. The difference is that you do not need a inty (nevermind a factioned out one) to catch/kill a normal ship. Even if it has an officer tank worth billions. So I see what you are saying, everything should be the same. Yes That would be great. Once again we come back to the purpose of spending 300 million on a faction fitted nanoBS. It is obviously for the ability to be able to escape. My problem with your agruments, and me endlessly reposnding to them is its all theory. You take your side to the extreme, I do the same from the opposite angle. There is no end to this, and no one will ever be right or wrong. In practise though, I know that I have killed, been killed by, and been killed while flying nanoBS. I know that killing them is not incredibly difficult, because a) they are not the I win button everyone who can't or doesn't fly one thinks they are and b) all pilots make mistakes and bad decisions. You can take any ship with a 300 million faction fit put into its specialized role and say its unbalanced and unfair. However as has been pointed out if something goes really really fast people say omg thats unfair nerf it. If something tanks a gang of 5 and one by one kills them off, people say omg nice tank and want to know the setup. If someone wrecks for 2500 damage people say ouch nice hit. But in this particular instance people don't like it. Personally I think it is narrow mindedness.
Daikaze	Posted - 2007.01.17 17:01:00 - [72] Originally by: Kagura Nikon i Said so many times, just change the nano speed bonus to a percentage of the base speed of teh ship. Done. BS will not be able to go so fast but smaller ships will not be affected.!!! If any other limitation is to be done to nanofiber i demand that no more than one repairer may be used per ship. neither more than one shield extender or armor plate. I think this idea would be perfect.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 17:03:00 - [73] Originally by: Captain Vampire Something needs to be done, thats for sure. Yeah why don't you do it rather than begging CCP to do it all for you, like think up some proper tactics and fittings to counter this setup. I dont think 4-5000 in a 300M battleship setup and good skills, and t1 implants is unreasonable. The trade-off is greatly reduced firepower, and no tank whatsoever. The ship is still very much cathable and webbable by people with the right tackling setups. I can think of many many ships that can get close enough to put webs if they are also set for speed. Examples - all interceptors, stabber, minmitar recons. Your problem is you want the game tailored to your playstyle. I never touched a nanoBS before i was killed by one but guess what I did? Was it come and whine on the forums abouthow unfair they are? NO. It was firstly to build a nanoship of my own because they looked like great fun and effective, and secondly to think about how I would go about killing one. In both counts I've been succesful.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 17:16:00 - [74] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 17:16:38 Originally by: Nev Clavain So I see what you are saying, everything should be the same. Yes That would be great. No, I am saying that everything should be balanced. Which does not mean everything is the same. Nano setups have an higher survivability than other setups. You cannot really argue against that. Price is pretty pointless as argument here because you can also setup a ship with 300 mil in a faction tank, if 3 generic ships of equal size with t1 gear catch it it will still die. In short, it has an advantage vs normal ships. In order to balance this it also needs a disadvantage. Lower DPS certainly isn't it, a nanodomi or nanophoon do not deal less dps than normally tanked setups of these ships when you include the effect nos has as dps multiplier since it kills any active tank. Basically, right now nanoships enjoy advantages without suffering disadvantages. Originally by: Nev Clavain Your problem is you want the game tailored to your playstyle. I am flying a nanocurse right now. I have 1.2 mil SP in navigation. I have no t2 tanking skills in either shield or armortanking (excluding t2 shield extenders). More baseless asumptions please.
Erotic Irony RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.01.17 17:32:00 - [75] Medium mobile webifier. Seed 'em! ___
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 17:34:00 - [76] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 17:32:16 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 17:16:38 Originally by: Nev Clavain So I see what you are saying, everything should be the same. Yes That would be great. No, I am saying that everything should be balanced. Which does not mean everything is the same. Nano setups have an higher survivability than other setups. You cannot really argue against that. Price is pretty pointless as argument here because you can also setup a ship with 300 mil in a faction tank, if 3 generic ships of equal size with t1 gear catch it it will still die. In short, it has an advantage vs normal ships. In order to balance this it also needs a disadvantage. Lower DPS certainly isn't it, a nanodomi or nanophoon do not deal less dps than normally tanked setups of these ships when you include the effect nos has as dps multiplier since it kills any active tank. Basically, right now nanoships enjoy advantages without suffering disadvantages. Originally by: Nev Clavain Your problem is you want the game tailored to your playstyle. I am flying a nanocurse right now. I have 1.2 mil SP in navigation. I have no t2 tanking skills in either shield or armortanking (excluding t2 shield extenders). More baseless asumptions please. what is a 'normal' ship for gods sake. You are just talking rediculous theories here there and everywhere. How can you say that a nanoship doesnt have a reduce in dps? Large guns are just not an option on a ship moving that fast - therefore reduced DPS. Alot of your theories dont mean anything when applied to the game. Not one of your theories justifies your point of view which basically says that Battleships shouldnt go fast. They should go slow, and tank and gank, and then in your mind they will be 'balanced'. But you say becaue a nano battleship can now escape from ships setup to be much slower but to tank better and do more damage that this is unfair. Its not unfair. A nano battleship can be rendered totally innefective and nullified (if not killed) by ANY gang that is worth its salt. Many ships cant be killed if they dont make a mistake and have no counter in this sense, but no one is saying nerf them. A faction inty pilot cannot be killed unless he makes the mistake, a covops pilot is the same, a recon pilot, a Titan and Mothership pilot. But a nanopilot being hard to kill is totally unnacceptable --- why? Yet you seem to think they can just swoop in and kill everything and then run away scott free. Its just not like that at all. They have to pick and choose their targets like any other ship. They have to play to their strenghts like any other setups. But because it doesnt fit with your personal conception of 'balance' which does not include a ship bigger than yours going faster than you, then CCP needs to hit the nerf button. My reason for leaving them alone is I have no trouble killing them, and I am hardly uber at pvp. I dont know for sure what your difficulty is with doing it, but it seems to me your biggest stumbling block is your attitude. You've convinced yourself it can't be done.
Morden Nok Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 18:21:00 - [77] I'd like to see nanoship proponents give me a way of killing nano-ship without using any of the following: Another nano-ship. Anything that can only be countered by itself is broken. Minmatar Recon Faction gear Preferably this should be done with a single ship in same size class as the nano-ship. Considering that it is possible to counter any other type of ship with single ship, it should also be possible to do so on nano-ship. Forcing ship to disengage is definetely not a win and you get no points for such setup. Of course I know you can force nanoship to disengage with heavy Ewar or large mass of ships with enough tracking / fast enough missiles to kill it. But that applies to every single ship not just nano fitted. One way of fixing this would be to actually limit mwd's to their 550% (+skills) max speed bonus and not make it mass dependant. That way mwd would give you speed advantage, but would balance them against turret users at least. Yes I know that there are mwd's with both lower and higher max speed bonii when unfitted, that's beside the point. And I've yet to see nano-ship counter that wouldn't work against practically any solo-ship. Personally I can say that using a Rapier, damps and damage dealer means dead nanodomi.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 18:53:00 - [78] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 18:52:26 Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 18:49:51 Originally by: Morden Nok I'd like to see nanoship proponents give me a way of killing nano-ship without using any of the following: Another nano-ship. Anything that can only be countered by itself is broken. Minmatar Recon Faction gear SO what you are saying is that if you cant catch a fast ship without going fast yourself, something is broken. I would have to disagree. If this is the case then every fast ship in the game needs nerfing until anything can be caught by a badger. Speed has no counter other than speed, and that is not just the case for nanoBS. As Webbing is a close range deal (except for minnie recon which is why they come up so often in this - dont see why they are arbitrarily not a valid counter), you will also need speed to get there. So you are going to need a ship fitted with nanos or something similar to get close to a nanoBS, but that does not make it unfair. So a t1 fitted nanobattleship is gonna struggle to break 2000 m/s (with no implants) So any t1 fitted ship that can reach that kind of speed and hold a scram and a couple of sensor damps is going to kill it eventually. DPS is not an issue because you will kill it eventually because it has no tank, only need to beat shield regen. So try a raven with cruise or heavy missiles will absolutely murder a t1 nanoBS. But yes unless you can catch it and keep it scrambled, it is just going to run away, that is what speed is there for. Same goes for any fast ship. POint is there are ships that can catch it, and ANY ship can murder it if it can catch it. The point is when you fit a crapload of faction mods onto a nanoship it becomes really very uber, like most battleships do in tanking or ganking or whatever. There is no reason why a t1 fitted battleship should be able to kill a 400 million isk faction -fited equivalent. Otherwise, faction mods would be a waste of money.
Xiaodown Dragons Of Redemption Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:14:00 - [79] Originally by: Nev Clavain Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nev Clavain Lol so your 300 mill setup you propose, (notice no hugely expesnive faction nos) can be countered by a crow setup worth under 100 mill, as I have already described. The problem is what?? A domi WD costs 150 mil. A TS nos 70 mil. Good like trying to keep out of nos and in WD range with a SS WD. Also, care to explain what good scrambling a nanoship does without webbing it? Your crow can follow it, true, but your gang will fall behind and not doing much. It has no tank and a crow can beat its shield regen. While it has absoltuely nothing to hit back at a crow doing that speed. Its only option is to head for a gate or station. Now if the gate happens to be covered by a good gang, the nanoBS is in trouble and in for a slow slow death. Dude, give up. You're worse than ANY fanboy I've ever encountered on the ENTIRETY of teh intarnets. 1.) WARP SCRAMBLING != SLOWING THE SHIP DOWN. As I and numerous others have pointed out to you before in this thread. The nano ships can't be hit because they go too fast. 2.) YOUR ARGUEMENT ABOUT A CROW IS STUPID. Even IF a crow can go 10,000 m/s AND AT THE SAME TIME, warp scramble at more than 26k, spending less than 100 mil, you state that it can break the tank of a battleship, which is silly. What part of "going 10,000 m/s" and "firing standard missiles / rockets" and "explosion velocity" do you not get? A warp disruptor that goes more than 26k (the maximum range for T2 large NOS) will set you back at least 120 mil, and I'm not even sure which ones do. I think the Domi scrambles out to 24k, but that's inside the range of the E500, the Diminishing, and the T2 NOS's. And those are touted as "best in game" and go for 150M. And trust me, a diminishing NOS will cripple a crow. So, now you need an OFFICER warp scrambler. Furthermore, to get a crow going 10,000 m/s you need ace skills and a faction 1mn MWD, plus the same rigs you've got on your IWIN button, and that might get you to 10,000 m/s without implants. So, now you've got a 700M isk crow needed to counter your BS. AND you state that it can put out enough damage to break the shield regen? Yeah, maybe after 20 minutes, if you're lucky enough to stay out of nos range. What if you run across a nanophoon that sacrifices the target painter or tracking disruptor for a T2 medium or large shield booster? It's a solo pwnmobile, there's no question, it's broken, and you don't want it fixed because you simply want to continue pimping your killboard with kills you don't deserve. Unlike most of the nano-BS pilots, who say "yeah, it's broken, but until they fix it, I'll use it cause it's fun", YOU say, "OMFG it's not overpowered, it's so fragile, and anyone in a gang of a kestrel and a punisher can kill it just by sneezing!!lol!". Thanks for playing. You, sir, are what's wrong with the game. DIAF, pls.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:15:00 - [80] Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 17/01/2007 19:14:28 This is a terrible whine by people who have been flying and using inties, and force recon as their IWIN button. Translation WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I cannot be invicible in my generic pvp set up inty anymore. Stop whining and fit to take them down. Nano's have penalty to using them. These players end up with no tanks, and low hp BS, that still are not as fast as an agressively set up inty. IE you need a specialized set up to beat a specialized set up. Problem is you got all these lazy campers and pvp'ers who think that the generic pvp set up on their inty should work for all ships they encounter because historically IT HAS WORKED. Killing a nano is simple web/scramble friend in BS warps in who also has webs /scrambles and nano ship = pwned. Sorry all you spoiled inty pilots have to actually think and maybe use a specialized set up for once. Like people have said if anything needs a nerf in this case it should be the implants that take it over the top, be cause anyone can get nanos but not everyone can dump a billion on implants.
James Snowscoran Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:28:00 - [81] The problem is that there isn't a stacking penalty to fitting them. Fast battleships aren't really a problem, but agile battleships makes it unbalanced. Basically it's just another tool for fighters that doesn't want to commit themselves to the fight. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but IMO scoring kills whilst keeping a safe retreat route open has always been too easy in EVE. -----
Vito Parabellum Fivrelde Corp	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:30:00 - [82] Domination scrambler, 30kms range - 150M ISK Dark Blood heavy nosferatu, 30kms range - 100M ISK Stop the stupid crow arguments Myself I simply don't like having battlships running around acting like interceptors with bs sized hitpoints and damage. It was nerfed before but now it's back. Don't get surprised if it vanishes again. Thats all. ------ Simply by pulling on both ends, Chuck Norris can strech diamonds back into coal.
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:35:00 - [83] As I have mentioned elsewhere: I suspect that the reason why many of the large alliance players have such a visceral dislike for nano-setups is they are outstanding at avoiding/breaking gatecamps. Territorial control in this game is currently maintained through the use and threat of gatecamps, if hordes of pirates can slip through or avoid the gate-camp mechanic it makes it MUCH more difficult to control territory. I say threat because many folks don't even venture into 0.0 alliance territory because it is too much of a risk to lose their combat ship to a gate camp. As such the IDEA of a gatecamp acts as a detterent, and folks don't have to maintain them 24-7. Now a decent gate-camp will still take out a nano-ship, but these are rarely maintained 24-7. Joe Solo headed out to 0.0 for a little piracy fun will most likely be able to avoid all but the largest gatecamps in a nano setup. If nano ships continue to gain in popularity, alliances will need to actually patrol their holdings, with other nano-ships. (Having Nano ships at a gatecamp is not really effective, as the ships will high tail it back to the gate or be in warp well before most of these ships even lock). This will reduce the effective territory that an alliance is able to effectively hold. (Unless they use BoB's vassalization model and just make the tenants deal with them). Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:39:00 - [84] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nev Clavain Lol so your 300 mill setup you propose, (notice no hugely expesnive faction nos) can be countered by a crow setup worth under 100 mill, as I have already described. The problem is what?? A domi WD costs 150 mil. A TS nos 70 mil. Good like trying to keep out of nos and in WD range with a SS WD. Also, care to explain what good scrambling a nanoship does without webbing it? Your crow can follow it, true, but your gang will fall behind and not doing much. I'd rather take those iskies and bring a small fleet of Minmatar and Gallente recons. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Xiaodown Dragons Of Redemption Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:43:00 - [85] Yeah, someone ahead of me looked it up - the domi warp disrupter goes to 30km. That's cool. It's still 150M. So, if you can manage to stay BEWTEEN 26k and 30k from the nano ship, and maintain your cap, and hope they don't have faction NOS, and that they don't unexpectedly change directions or slow down to get in NOS range (if you're chasing)... then you get to shoot 3 standard missile launchers (crow has 3 missile hardpoints) at the battleship and hope you can beat the shield regen, and wait for 30 minutes to find out if you can or not, while also hoping the nanoship doesn't dock or jump through a gate. Riiiiiiight. Thanks for playing. DIAF.
Forum Troll	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:44:00 - [86] Nerf Nanos. Nerf Speed Implants. Nerf Speed Riggings.
Xiaodown Dragons Of Redemption Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:53:00 - [87] Originally by: Forum Troll Nerf Nanos. Nerf Speed Implants. Nerf Speed Riggings. Troll. Hehe.
Imaldris	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:58:00 - [88] get rid of nos
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:59:00 - [89] Originally by: James Snowscoran The problem is that there isn't a stacking penalty to fitting them. Fast battleships aren't really a problem, but agile battleships makes it unbalanced. I tend to agree. Flagging the -inertia stat would almost HALF the agility bonus of 6 nano/instab setups. Neither have the +MWD speeds a stacking penality which is kinda strange considering the (less effecient) +speed rigs have it. Giving them it would reduce the boost from 3 +MWD speed rigs from about 45% to 35%, circa a 7% reduction in effective speed.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:02:00 - [90] Whine whine whine... sigh, guess I have to explain it again. Take two or three cruisers, fitted with a tank, MWDs, and webs, and probably a cap booster. Fan them out so they're in a formation 20km from one another. When the nanoship orbits one, he'll likely have to run into one of the others, or disengage and run away. If he doesn't disengage, he'll orbit close enough to one of the other ships for it to web him. At any rate, once he tries to orbit something to keep it in nos/scram range, watch his orbit and fly in an intercepting path against it. Stabbers are really good at this particular job. This also works with frigates as the wingmen (the ones not being orbitted), be them AFs, intys, or normal T1 frigs. Doesn't work quite as well with non-nano Bships, though, but it DOES work with web drones (they fly in an intercepting path). I don't know of any tanked Bship that could even conceivably be scared of three non-dampening, non-ECM T1 cruisers/frigs. ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
Venson Bryce Universal Dynamics	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:05:00 - [91] The PvP lot are just not going to be satisfied till all ships are "balanced" at which point the only difference between them is going to be how they look. Hell we might as well be playing rock, paper, scissors. Well no actually because then the whining would turn to "It's not fair the scissors can cut paper but paper can't cut scissors. WTF! NERF SCISSORS !!!!111!!!" Thanks guys for dumbing this game down to that level.
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:05:00 - [92] Originally by: Nev Clavain Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nev Clavain Lol so your 300 mill setup you propose, (notice no hugely expesnive faction nos) can be countered by a crow setup worth under 100 mill, as I have already described. The problem is what?? A domi WD costs 150 mil. A TS nos 70 mil. Good like trying to keep out of nos and in WD range with a SS WD. Also, care to explain what good scrambling a nanoship does without webbing it? Your crow can follow it, true, but your gang will fall behind and not doing much. It has no tank and a crow can beat its shield regen. While it has absoltuely nothing to hit back at a crow doing that speed. Its only option is to head for a gate or station. Now if the gate happens to be covered by a good gang, the nanoBS is in trouble and in for a slow slow death. Unless the enemy throws dare I say it, two nanophoons into the mix! Then you can take your crow and shove it.
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:08:00 - [93] Nanos are the only thing that make the phoon good. If you nerf that we have two useless battleships. -=====-
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:14:00 - [94] Originally by: Chancer One possible solution would be to have a maximum safe speed. Once the ship goes over that speed, it starts to take structure damage. That is genious. Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:16:00 - [95] Originally by: Hllaxiu I'd rather take those iskies and bring a small fleet of Minmatar and Gallente recons. apparently thats not allowed, its not considered a valid counter, for errr some reason....
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:22:00 - [96] Originally by: Xiaodown *frightening ranting and calling me a fanboi for some reason You have clearly never flown a nanoBS, and have very little idea how they work and what they are capable of. WHich kind of makes your participation in this discusiion, and the participation of those like you, irrelevant. YOu seem to think that they are faster then inties. They are not. All inties are capable of a higher top speed than any battleship assuming the optimum fit on both, and the same skills and implants. You seem to think that nano BS has a tank, it doesnt. I'm serious when i say a single crow could break its tank provided it stays out of nos, and stops it from running away. You think I'm exaggerating, thats because you know absolutely nothing about nanBS except that you got pwned by one.
Morden Nok Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:23:00 - [97] Originally by: Nev Clavain Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 18:52:26 Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 18:49:51 Originally by: Morden Nok I'd like to see nanoship proponents give me a way of killing nano-ship without using any of the following: Another nano-ship. Anything that can only be countered by itself is broken. Minmatar Recon Faction gear SO what you are saying is that if you cant catch a fast ship without going fast yourself, something is broken. I would have to disagree. If this is the case then every fast ship in the game needs nerfing until anything can be caught by a badger. No. You're purposefully misquoting what I said. Using a normally faster ship, like cruiser or interceptor is acceptable. I'd like to see you killing a nano-domi with one though. No gang. Originally by: Nev Clavain Speed has no counter other than speed, and that is not just the case for nanoBS. As Webbing is a close range deal (except for minnie recon which is why they come up so often in this - dont see why they are arbitrarily not a valid counter), you will also need speed to get there. Actually why I said no Minmatar recons because I can counter any BS setup with Huginn/Rapier and Lachesis/Arazu. Other reason they're not accepted counter is that they're T2 ships and should not be required to counter single T1 ship. Originally by: Nev Clavain So a t1 fitted nanobattleship is gonna struggle to break 2000 m/s (with no implants) So any t1 fitted ship that can reach that kind of speed and hold a scram and a couple of sensor damps is going to kill it eventually. DPS is not an issue because you will kill it eventually because it has no tank, only need to beat shield regen. First: With rigs, going past 2000m/s is trivial. Second, damps are easily counterable by fitting sensor booster. It's not trivial to drop targeting range below 20 km if target has SB II fitted. Third, you seem to be completely forgetting the inconvenient fact that nano-ship will put his drones, guns and nosses on that tackler. If it is solo, it will then most likely die. Like I said, I doubt that nothing but nano-ship can both tackle a nano-ship and survive long enough, excluding faction gear and Minnie Recons. Originally by: Nev Clavain So try a raven with cruise or heavy missiles will absolutely murder a t1 nanoBS. But yes unless you can catch it and keep it scrambled, it is just going to run away, that is what speed is there for. Same goes for any fast ship. POint is there are ships that can catch it, and ANY ship can murder it if it can catch it. Nano-ship will run away from any ship that can kill it. There is no single non-nano ship that can both tackle and kill it. Here's the imbalance. Originally by: Nev Clavain The point is when you fit a crapload of faction mods onto a nanoship it becomes really very uber, like most battleships do in tanking or ganking or whatever. There is no reason why a t1 fitted battleship should be able to kill a 400 million isk faction -fited equivalent. Otherwise, faction mods would be a waste of money. Problem really is that non-nano ships suitable for tackling nano-ships are usually lacking in cap and fragile, which means the nano-ship can just put hvy nosses + drones / missiles on it and speed away. Besides, it's not like fitting a Rapier that can tackle nano-domi properly is cheap, you need around 200 mil worth of gear to do it. You really have to remember that there that 1) Domi costs 15 mil after insurance. Rapier costs 40 mil after insurance. 2) cov-ops cloaks aren't cheap. Neither are 26+ km scramblers, which you need to stay out of NOS range. Damps won't work if target has sensor booster. Even if he does not have one, staying at 19 km orbit is bit risky. Nano-ships are too good right now and need to be balanced. You probably cried when they nerfed stabs too :P
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:24:00 - [98] Originally by: Venson Bryce Well no actually because then the whining would turn to "It's not fair the scissors can cut paper but paper can't cut scissors. WTF! NERF SCISSORS !!!!111!!!" Thanks guys for dumbing this game down to that level. qft
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:35:00 - [99] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 20:33:06 Originally by: Morden Nok Nano-ships are too good right now and need to be balanced. You probably cried when they nerfed stabs too :P Well after reading that I forgot about taking you seriously. FYI I never used a stab on a combat setup ever. HOwever I'm tired of peoples little game of Hey NEv tell me how we can counter a NanoBS, so i provide a perfectly valid counter, and then they come back with - well what if he fits a sensor booster LoL! What if any ship fits a sensor booster dumbass? Same effect. What if what if what if, it never ends. I tell you a setup and you can obviously think of some module to get arouns it. Thing is the NanoBS doesnt have infinite fitting slots to have all these modules you guys keep thinking of, and afaik can't switch modules in space on the fly, like you can in your arguments. Once again you conveneiently forget how expensive it is to get a battleship to high speeds. Oh with rigs its trivial to get a ship to higher than 2000 m/s. Those rigs cost 50 million each. SO the cost of your 't1' 'standard' domi that you are using in the example has just soared from 15M to 165M. Stop bending everything to your own argument. Stop whining on these forums about things you are too dumb to kill. Yes dumb. Sitting here arguing about nothing can kill it one on one. I dont care, doesnt make it unbalanced to me (even though I've told you how it can be killed one on one). This is a team game and one on one has nothing at all to do with it. If you want one on one, perhaps Yahoo chess is more your speed. I know they can be killed with minimal effort, because i have done so. This is all that really matters. Yes the ideal way to do it involves a couple of people if you want to stop the thing running away. So what? See the post above about rock paper scissors that I quoted. That just about covers anything else I have to say to anyone thinking nanoBS, or NOS, or Snipers, or pretty much anything in the game as it is now, should be nerfed. If people must cry about battleships travelling 8km/s, then the first thing that should be looked at is faction implants, as I have already pointed out.
Leto Twin Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Nev Clavain Nanobattleship defense stuff, many posts of such Once I can find a webber that will web outside of large nos range (20km) if we are assuming that they are not using faction, and a webber that will do the same (not as hard to do, but you need a faction or TII), then I can see my crow helping. Most of the nanophoons I have seen also carry a bunch of acs. Acs eat through interceptors when they try to get into web range. To the other person: You are telling me that a nanodomi doesn't have pretty much the same DPS as a normal Domi? I am thinking the TII drones have the same damage as a non-nanodomi. And the rails (if they are using them and not the nos) will do almost the same damage, because I don't know many domi pilots that use the tracking enhancers and such (whatever the low slot gun modifier is). I have very, very high navigation skills, I fly a crow and they still eat my ship. I am well versed in the ways of the interceptors. I can T2 fit the thing out with ease, have an incredible set-up that can take down many things. There is no lack of damage/tanking/navigation skills for my crow. I have electronic and engineering skills to fit the hell out of my crow. And they still eat me. I admittedly use nanos to move haulers through bubbles. I also sometimes fit one on my crow. I thought about using a nanodomi, maybe I could do a nanoraven for ****s and giggles. But I still feel they need to be a nerf. Nanos are wtfpwnmobiles. You would lose too many interceptors to keep them webbed long enough to kill them. Their MWD bonus makes them the size of a planet, but the missiles can't catch up of the hard hitters.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:47:00 - [101] I wouldn't worry about nano-bs too much. They are the flavor of the month currently, but I'm sure we won't see them again after several patches. The thing is clearly is an exploitation of holes in game mechanics; just like kessies with cruise missiles or double mwd ravens.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:54:00 - [102] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 20:51:31 Originally by: Nev Clavain How can you say that a nanoship doesnt have a reduce in dps? Large guns are just not an option on a ship moving that fast - therefore reduced DPS. Yes, because a domi get's it's dps from it's guns..oh, wait. To repeat myself since you apparently did not get it (or ignored it): NOS is a DPS multiplier Unless you are facing a purely passively tanked setup killing the cap of a target will directly increase your effective dps because it cannot repair any damage you do. And, if it uses active harderners, will recieve up to twice the dps it would if it still had cap. Either you really are thick or are trying to actively mislead the thread. Quote: Alot of your theories dont mean anything when applied to the game. Not one of your theories justifies your point of view which basically says that Battleships shouldnt go fast. They should go slow, and tank and gank, and then in your mind they will be 'balanced'. But you say becaue a nano battleship can now escape from ships setup to be much slower but to tank better and do more damage that this is unfair. Ah, we are in the baseless assumptions/accusations mode again? Firstly, I never said BS shouldn't go fast. You're welcome to show me where. Secondly, no, they shouldn't go slow, tank and gank to be balanced. But in order to counter their survivability advantage they need a disadvantage. Which, as said, ATM isn't reduced effective dps. Quote: A nano battleship can be rendered totally innefective and nullified (if not killed) by ANY gang that is worth its salt. Noone said nanoships cannot be killed. The point is that everything which kills them also kills normally tanked BS. Quote: A faction inty pilot cannot be killed unless he makes the mistake, a covops pilot is the same, a recon pilot, a Titan and Mothership pilot. None of them can solo kill a target which is not alone. Well, exept motherships and titans, but if you make nanoships costing as much as these I won't have any problems with them, too. Quote: They have to pick and choose their targets like any other ship. Exept their possible amount of viaable targets is far greater than other ships. Quote: My reason for leaving them alone is I have no trouble killing them, and I am hardly uber at pvp. Considering the best counter to nanoships are nanoships themselves this is hardly surprising. ECM ships could also counter ECM ships very well.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:56:00 - [103] Originally by: Leto Twin stuff yeah have you flown one? no obviously not if you think putting rails on there is anything but a waste of time. Try hitting something with even small railguns while orbitting at 3500 m/s. Large ones, forget about it. I wish people would actually fly the damn things themselves before coming here to whinge about stuff. Its incredibly frustrating trying to argue against people who have no clue what they are talking about, and sit their listing supposed strengths that are simply fabrication on their part.
Anator Namon	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:57:00 - [104] You whiners need to L2P. Many many setups have been suggested that can beat a nanoBS, but you just say that doesn't matter, that your favorite setup can't. Well, adapt. And it isn't like only one setup can beat them, or that only another NanoBS can beat them. And yes, if your Interceptor is only going 2000m/s you are a sucky pilot.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:59:00 - [105] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 20:58:15 Originally by: Aramendel Either you really are thick or are trying to actively mislead the thread. You are the one that has problems killing a paper thin battleship just cos it goes quite fast... not me. Don't call people stupid just because they don't agree with you, its the most ignorant position you can take. I don't have a problem with them because I enjoy flying them and I have no problem killing them (for the record without using a nanoBS, but yes utilising other fast ships). Once again see the rock paper scissors argument if you want more details of my opinions.
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:00:00 - [106] Originally by: Nev Clavain Originally by: Leto Twin stuff I wish people would actually fly the damn things themselves before coming here to whinge about stuff. Its incredibly frustrating trying to argue against people who have no clue what they are talking about, and sit their listing supposed strengths that are simply fabrication on their part. exactly, this is why I never take the time to try and argue back, just laugh and get ready for the next thing to abuse before it gets nerfed too
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:04:00 - [107] Why does the title still say the tribble with nano's? Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -ISD Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!?
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:08:00 - [108] Originally by: j0sephine "That's hilarious, you don't need a such a huge gang to kill a nano-ship. Once you have it webbed and scrambled you can tear through it's non-existant tank like tissue-paper." That's a bit like saying you don't need more than one ticket to win the lottery... once you pick the right numbers, you're all set -.^ (while technically true, easier said than done) My thoughts exactly. Frankly, I hate the new nano/i-stab craze. It bugs me...the same way stabbabonds bugged me. However...it's allowed, so more power to these pilots. Just because I don't like to play that way doesn't mean these guys shouldn't (unless CCP decides they don't want the game played that way and change the game). The plain fact of the matter is that most of the guys I've seen using these setups/tactics are good pilots anyway and could probably kick much butt with more conventional setups...heheh.
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:13:00 - [109] Originally by: Hllaxiu The solution is to beam all the i-stabs and nanos over to the Klingon ship, where they'll be no tribble at all. (I hope you don't change the topic! ) Go away, Gasbag. We don't want them!
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:13:00 - [110] Warfare has changed? good, Noob pilots used to doing lvl 4 agent missions in their raven with few skill points and spending hours as a blob on a gate are getting killed ? good, about time. Blob battles and gate camps were getting old - any ship setups that help detract from that and add another dynamic is well welcome in my book. If your opponent is flying a nano battleship and is flying at 5-6m/s then he has faction equipment/implants fitted and isk value of over a billion for a set of snakes. If you want to tackle a BS like that your going to need ships fitted to kill them, yes with faction mods. A 25 million fully equipped crow isn't going to do crap, but if you guys can't see the point in having a domination warp scrambler fitted to warp scramble outside of 25km, then i'd think before you type a response.
Quarantine 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:17:00 - [111] Wow, what a load of crappy arguments from both sides here. Just a few points to think about for you: - A nano ship needs to get webbed or cap drained long enough for a normal combat ship to get into web range once, then it dies. - Hitting approach and hoping to be faster isn't the only way to intercept an orbiting ship. No, I'm not talking about just hitting orbit either. - All nano ships operate within nos and neutralizer range. - Nanoships can't web anyone if solo. Reapproach gate and jump out. Oh, and you'd have died in that belt if caught by any ship, so stop whining. - Battleships going into warp as fast as ceptors is dead wrong and needs to be fixed. - Snakes are overpowered, but so are crystals. Let's nerf both and see what happens, huh?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:19:00 - [112] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 21:17:05 Originally by: Nev Clavain You are the one that has problems killing a paper thin battleship just cos it goes quite fast... not me. I did say where? Ah, yes, assumptions again. Quote: Don't call people stupid just because they don't agree with you, its the most ignorant position you can take. No, I call people stupid when they ignore facts, aka when they ARE ignorant. Which you still do, btw. Using nos gives nanoships effeciently a greater dps than regular guns. Compare the effective dps of a Typhoon with 4 ACs, 4 siege launchers and 5 heavies vs a target with average 60% resistance and a LAR2 running and it's effective dps without the ACs vs a target with 20% average resistances and without a LAR2. Or continue to wear blinkers. Your choice. Quote: I don't have a problem with them because I enjoy flying them and I have no problem killing them (for the record without using a nanoBS, but yes utilising other fast ships). To repeat myself, noone said they are not killable. But it requires a specialized gang - which does not have any problems with killing a solo non-nanoBS as well. The only ship which can solo counter a nanoship is a nanoship itself - exept your crow example, of cource. Or haven't you done that yourself and you were then just..what were the words...talking rediculous theories here there and everywhere? Quote: Once again see the rock paper scissors argument if you want more details of my opinions. So, lets see. Single nanoBS counters single non-nanoBS, but is countered by specialized gang. Specialized gang counters nsingle anoBS, but is countered by single non-nanoBS. Single non-nanoBS is counters specialized gang, but is countered by single nanoBS. Spot the error!
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:31:00 - [113] Originally by: Quarantine Wow, what a load of crappy arguments from both sides here. Just a few points to think about for you: - A nano ship needs to get webbed or cap drained long enough for a normal combat ship to get into web range once, then it dies. - Hitting approach and hoping to be faster isn't the only way to intercept an orbiting ship. No, I'm not talking about just hitting orbit either. - All nano ships operate within nos and neutralizer range. - Nanoships can't web anyone if solo. Reapproach gate and jump out. Oh, and you'd have died in that belt if caught by any ship, so stop whining. - Battleships going into warp as fast as ceptors is dead wrong and needs to be fixed. - Snakes are overpowered, but so are crystals. Let's nerf both and see what happens, huh? This post delivers. Thread winner.
Agent 24 Gallente Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:32:00 - [114] Edited by: Agent 24 on 17/01/2007 21:35:00 Edited by: Agent 24 on 17/01/2007 21:30:02 Edited by: Agent 24 on 17/01/2007 21:29:16 Gallente BS, T2 blasters with mid slots: cap booster, scram, web, AB/MWD should leave 2-3 slots for tracking enhancers II and web drones. Usual armor tank, even a nano if you wish :) and slap him. I concur with many people on this thread as it is 50/50 whiners/realists. There are ways to beat nanophoons, it jsut takes some ingenuity and not CCP to hold your hand. Get out there, lose some ships and learn the tactics. TY nanophoons for generating interesting and finger biting fights, I hate you but love the challenge :P P.S. Nerf the whiners, save the world
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:35:00 - [115] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 21:17:05 So, lets see. Single nanoBS counters single non-nanoBS, but is countered by specialized gang. Specialized gang counters nsingle anoBS, but is countered by single non-nanoBS. Single non-nanoBS is counters specialized gang, but is countered by single nanoBS. Spot the error! The error is assuming that is correct, which its not. It depends on the individual basis along with setup, skill and small amount of luck that every encounter in EvE depends upon. There are single BS setups that can easily survive a nano ship.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:19:00 - [116] Originally by: Aramendel more stuff Can't be bothered to argue with you any longer. We are never going to agree, it achieves nothing. I agree with everything Quarantine just said. He puts it better than me, and probably plenty of the crappy arguments he referred to were mine. Only one last thing to say, is that of course killing a nanoBS requires a specialised gang to kill it, its a very specialised ship. Its not the only ship in the game like this. If it is no problem for you to kill it then why is it in need of massive and immediate nerfage? Its not is the simple answer. It is a ship with a counter like any other. The complexity of the counter is proportional to the pricetag of the ship. A good NanoBS is not cheap in any sense, and the pilot is risking alot. The counter is not really that complicated, and if you aren't dead set on actually killing the nanophoon but merely sending it somewhere else, it is very very simple and doable by one person. lol god that turned into about 10 last things to say. Anyway I'm in this thread too much already thats the end of it I promise lol.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:19:00 - [117] I'm scissors. Paper is fine. Nerf rocks. ------------------- ... [OK] ... zOMG!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:34:00 - [118] Originally by: Nev Clavain The complexity of the counter is proportional to the pricetag of the ship. Exept this is exactly not the case. As said, the effect/isk ratio of nanoBS is far far FAR above anything else. Please do any non-nano shipsetup for 300 or even 500 mil (inculding shiprice after insurance) which cannot be killed by 3 t1 fitted BS and is able to kill them.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:42:00 - [119] Edited by: Nicocat on 17/01/2007 22:40:18 Originally by: Quarantine Wow, what a load of crappy arguments from both sides here. Just a few points to think about for you: - A nano ship needs to get webbed or cap drained long enough for a normal combat ship to get into web range once, then it dies. - Hitting approach and hoping to be faster isn't the only way to intercept an orbiting ship. No, I'm not talking about just hitting orbit either. - All nano ships operate within nos and neutralizer range. - Nanoships can't web anyone if solo. Reapproach gate and jump out. Oh, and you'd have died in that belt if caught by any ship, so stop whining. - Battleships going into warp as fast as ceptors is dead wrong and needs to be fixed. - Snakes are overpowered, but so are crystals. Let's nerf both and see what happens, huh? Huh, I'm agreeing with an outbreak. Better pack your **, the world's ending ;) About the second to last part, though, I really, REALLY wish I could enter warp like an inty, instead of a (pokey) cruiser, which is what actually happens. Stabbers beat me into warp, Ruppies do not. Addendum: If we ever see formation flying, you won't see many horribly effective nano ships anymore. As stated, a trio of ships in a 20km-on-a-side triangle really ruins an orbit. ---------------------------- Originally by:** Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
Machanara	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:47:00 - [120] Well, lets put it this way folks.....everyone knows that people will fit ships when they hear of a way they can kill others and not be killed( not often at all) Everyone will do it. Thatis how you know you have something that is being used that was not per design. Everyone in Eve does it and then 1000 whining threads about it. Well, everyone is now nanoing/stabbing ever single ship they can get their hands on. Raxs doing 7km/s, Phoons doing 5km++/s, cerberus doing 5km/s...the list doesnt end. THIS is how you know something needs to be nerfed. Exact same way they had to nerf Sensor boosters, tracking comps, WCS, DMG mods...and that list keeps going too. Again, why?? becasue everyone, their mother, brother and dog abused it. Nothing different here with nanos/ISTABS and you can damn well expect a nerf on them too. Dont blame the whiners...blame yourselves for abusing it.
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.17 23:21:00 - [121] Originally by: Machanara Well, lets put it this way folks.....everyone knows that people will fit ships when they hear of a way they can kill others and not be killed( not often at all) Everyone will do it. Thatis how you know you have something that is being used that was not per design. Everyone in Eve does it and then 1000 whining threads about it. Well, everyone is now nanoing/stabbing ever single ship they can get their hands on. Raxs doing 7km/s, Phoons doing 5km++/s, cerberus doing 5km/s...the list doesnt end. THIS is how you know something needs to be nerfed. Exact same way they had to nerf Sensor boosters, tracking comps, WCS, DMG mods...and that list keeps going too. Again, why?? becasue everyone, their mother, brother and dog abused it. Nothing different here with nanos/ISTABS and you can damn well expect a nerf on them too. Dont blame the whiners...blame yourselves for abusing it. Wow, Four pages, and some very intresting arguments, both pro and con, but id have to agree with this posters comments most of all. Sometimes it not about whether you can be allowed something, but whether you should... Kaaii Trading 101
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 00:14:00 - [122] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 18/01/2007 00:12:16 Edited by: Nev Clavain on 18/01/2007 00:11:04 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nev Clavain The complexity of the counter is proportional to the pricetag of the ship. Exept this is exactly not the case. As said, the effect/isk ratio of nanoBS is far far FAR above anything else. Please do any non-nano shipsetup for 300 or even 500 mil (inculding shiprice after insurance) which cannot be killed by 3 t1 fitted BS and is able to kill them. Nosdomi could do it I'm pretty sure with a hefty tank, or any Nos battleship. Of course depends on how the three t1 battleships were setup, and skill of the pilot and many other variables. This is what I'm saying, you can theorise all day like this and get nowhere. For me the proof is in the pudding that it really doesn't take moving a mountain to kill a nanoBS. And honestly I dispute that a nanoBS can take on and kill 3 other bs pilots that know what they are doing, t1 or otherwise. They simply aren't that good, they are just irritating. Kill the drones and you are half way there to making him toothless. Whoops i broke my promise - i just cant stay away!! (edit) ah page 5 was worth it lol
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.18 00:37:00 - [123] Originally by: Nev Clavain Nosdomi could do it I'm pretty sure with a hefty tank, or any Nos battleship. You kinda answered yourself, they would simply kill it's drones. And/or outnos it, which isn't too unlikely. In short, basically the same tactics they can use against a nanodomi/phoon. But the big difference here: if the nos-tank domi is loosing his ship will go boom. A faction tank won't help him. If a nos-nano-domi or a nos-nano-phoon - which do not less damage than a nos-tank-domi or nos-tank-phoon - is loosing it can retreat. Same isk spent, same dps, higher survivability. Which is the core problem of nanosetups, they gain something for nothing.
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.01.18 01:07:00 - [124] hmmm 5 pages already i dont fly nano phoons cause i dont think they are very good but i have experimented with set ups and i had trouble out running cruise missiles, no rigs no snake set i have tackled nanophoons in a stiletto with an afterburner on it and 3 light nos in the highs he drained my cap in 1 cycle of his mighty e500s (12 second cycle time) and then my small knaves sucked back enough to keep 1 of my 2 webs and my scram running (3 sec cycle time) yes thats right! an inty that costs probably less than 10 mil including its set up tackled the amazing invincable nanophoon long enough for friendlys to arrive and finish the job this is a whine thread, the average nanoship sucks imo and people that manage to get some insane set up by spending vast amounts of isk are either mental or too rich if you whiners manage to get ccp to nerf stabs and nanos im going to be sad resist the whine!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.18 01:43:00 - [125] Originally by: CharlieMurphy i have tackled nanophoons in a stiletto with an afterburner on it and 3 light nos in the highs he drained my cap in 1 cycle of his mighty e500s (12 second cycle time) and then my small knaves sucked back enough to keep 1 of my 2 webs and my scram running (3 sec cycle time) If you were able to catch a typhoon with an stiletto with an afterburner it was everything but no nanophoon.
TorpSpammer ExtraordinR	Posted - 2007.01.18 03:41:00 - [126] -rapier -serker sw-900 + your own mwd+web -better nanoBS with more nos -big short range guns -lag POP
Leto Twin Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 03:53:00 - [127] Originally by: Nev Clavain Originally by: Leto Twin stuff yeah have you flown one? no obviously not if you think putting rails on there is anything but a waste of time. Try hitting something with even small railguns while orbitting at 3500 m/s. Large ones, forget about it. I wish people would actually fly the damn things themselves before coming here to whinge about stuff. Its incredibly frustrating trying to argue against people who have no clue what they are talking about, and sit their listing supposed strengths that are simply fabrication on their part. The only thing of my post you responded to was the rail guns. Again, with a nanodomi, or a domi in general, guns are not the DPS for it. As was said by another poster. Inside scram range is inside nos range. Pop, crap, there goes another interceptor. And another, and another. Damn, the thing just warped out. Fast as the interceptors would've, only they were popped by something that need a good swing of the nerfbat. I won't fly them, because I resolve not to. My fights are picking and choosing with ships that can pick and choose, ones that are supossed to. Inties > gate camps. Are BSes supossed to be? Aligning as fast as a shuttle and warping like an inty?
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 08:35:00 - [128] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 18/01/2007 08:32:07 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nev Clavain Nosdomi could do it I'm pretty sure with a hefty tank, or any Nos battleship. You kinda answered yourself, they would simply kill it's drones. And/or outnos it, which isn't too unlikely. In short, basically the same tactics they can use against a nanodomi/phoon. But the big difference here: if the nos-tank domi is loosing his ship will go boom. A faction tank won't help him. If a nos-nano-domi or a nos-nano-phoon - which do not less damage than a nos-tank-domi or nos-tank-phoon - is loosing it can retreat. Same isk spent, same dps, higher survivability. Which is the core problem of nanosetups, they gain something for nothing. What you are asking for here, is that a ship - with the specific purpose of being fast, should be nerfed to the point that it can be caught by ships that are slow. At which point you take speed out of the equation as a useful tactic alltogether. Yes the nanodomi can escape, and is likely to leave before killing anything. Thats why you would fly a nanodomi The nosdomi would stay and take at least one or maybe two of your battleships before dying. So Nosdomi- 1 battleship lost = 1 battleship lost and NanoDomi- no battleship lost, to no battleship lost. I don't see the imbalance. It is you assumption that a nanodomi had the power to jump in, kill everything, and then flee that is just plain wrongwrong. Most fights where outnumbered result in nanodomi running around, although you do catch the odd pilot who makes a mistake. YOu are making it out that a nanodomi can work against vastly superior odds and get kills everytime. This is simply not the case. ONLY if the pilots he is fighting against make some pretty bad and elementary mistakes - which any other kind of ship could capitalise on too!
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 08:43:00 - [129] Originally by: Leto Twin Originally by: Nev Clavain Originally by: Leto Twin stuff I won't fly them, because I resolve not to. Good for you my morality. Your expertise on the subject of NanoBS comes from where exactly? How can you properly know their strenght and weakness if you have never even attempted to fly one? I fly one, and im telling you for real, you ignore fast tacklers like inties at your peril. Especially heavy fast tacklers like stabbers. It takes one web, one web for 20 seconds to slow you down to the point that you are in serious trouble, and then pop goes your 500 mill ship in a matter of moments. Fully setup my BS as about the hitpoints of a tier 2 battlecruiser, with normal resists, no repair except shield regen. Think how quickly that dies. Yes you might pop a tackler, but if you lose your 500 million isk ship because of it - was it worth it? hell no.
Domalais Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.18 08:50:00 - [130] Originally by: Jim McGregor Sure, but 5k/sec is with implants. If you want to compare ships using implants, lets talk about a Raven or a Rohk using crystals to completely negate whatever damage the other ship does. Okay, let's talk about a Raven using crystals. How much isk (including implants) will the Raven pilot need to spend in order to permatank a 4 nos nanophoon?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.18 11:16:00 - [131] Edited by: Aramendel on 18/01/2007 11:14:05 Originally by: Nev Clavain What you are asking for here, is that a ship - with the specific purpose of being fast, should be nerfed to the point that it can be caught by ships that are slow. Could you please finally stop stating I said stuff which I never did? It's getting annoying. No, I didn't. I said multiple times that it's advantage of being able to escape has to be balanced with a disadvantage, not removing that advantage. As said, you cannot keep the cake and eat it. One possible option would be to nerf the agility boost so nanoBS cannot orbit within WD range with more than 2km/s so in turn to keep their speed high enough to be effective they would need to make strafing runs which gives their target an window to escape. Then their high survivability would be balanced by a likewise high survivability of their target. Unless they form 2 man teams and time their flybys so always one has a WD on their target. But that would be ok because it actually requires some teamwork and skill. Quote: Yes the nanodomi can escape, and is likely to leave before killing anything. Thats why you would fly a nanodomi The nosdomi would stay and take at least one or maybe two of your battleships before dying. So Nosdomi- 1 battleship lost = 1 battleship lost and NanoDomi- no battleship lost, to no battleship lost. Nosdomi and nanodomi have identical nospower and dps. So how in earth can one kill a BS and the other cannot? If 3 BS can kill a nanodomis drones before they can kill one of them they can do the same with the nosdomis drones. And in either case we are talking about 300 mil ships each there. So the nosdomi kill 1 t1 BS - loss after insurance perhaps 40 mil at worst - while loosing oneself 300 mil. The 3 BS pilot will probably even make profit from it's loot after using to to pay for the ship loss. The nanodomi is loosing nothing. Originally by: Domalais Okay, let's talk about a Raven using crystals. How much isk (including implants) will the Raven pilot need to spend in order to permatank a 4 nos nanophoon? Wrong question. The correct question is "Can it tank a 4 nos nanophoon?" The answer is: no. Crystal implants do not help much when you have no cap.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 12:51:00 - [132] Originally by: Aramendel Nosdomi and nanodomi have identical nospower and dps. So how in earth can one kill a BS and the other cannot? If 3 BS can kill a nanodomis drones before they can kill one of them they can do the same with the nosdomis drones. Yes but this disadvantage you are asking for, and the key point here, is that one ship can tank the damage of 3 t1 battleships for quite some time, while the other cannot. Sure The tank or the Speed (the things negating the damage) both rely on Cap Booster charges, of which the nanodomi can carry less because it will likely have 1 or two overdrives fitted. Basically if 3 battleship pilots have trouble with a nanodomi, they are idiots. A Nosdomi is a different proposition. Perhaps then we should also nerf NOS as something is badly wrong with them too (which for the record I am against), but I doubt you would like that one little bit as a curse pilot. And after NOS what next? and then after that what next? With this kind of attitude there will always be something that has advantages that will cause complaints, and if we must nerf everything what are we left with - a very dull game. NanoDomi are easy enough to kill. That is the key issue, and what everyone keeps forgetting in these theoretical ramblings. However a one on one battleship fight isnt going to kill it because you are using the wrong tool for the job. but still i'm sure you have an answer to all of this because we are never going to agree are we :P I realised this some time ago, but my beliggerent nature keeps bringing me back to try and get the last word
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.18 14:09:00 - [133] Edited by: Aramendel on 18/01/2007 14:06:50 Originally by: Nev Clavain Sure The tank or the Speed (the things negating the damage) both rely on Cap Booster charges, of which the nanodomi can carry less because it will likely have 1 or two overdrives fitted. You are forgetting something. A gist B or C type 100MN MWD needs 48 cap/second with lvl 4 in the skill. 2 faction LAR need 80 cap/second - unless you are telling me that you can tank the dps of 3 BS with 1 LAR? The nanodomi can carry 18 800 cap charges. The nosdomi 23. The nosdomi needs 66% more cap/sec than the nanodomi. The nosdomi can carry 27% more cap charges than the nanodomi. Guess which one will run out of cap charges first. Hint: it's not the nanodomi.
Vito Parabellum Fivrelde Corp	Posted - 2007.01.18 15:18:00 - [134] Hehehe this happens all the time in a lot of games, but specially in eve where afterthought is the predominant thought :p A feature is put in the game that changes other facets of the game and make them unbalanced or unwanted. The conservatives complain about gameplay being changed (whiiinzeors, adapt or die!), the users and inventors of said feature (xploiters!!) adamantly push for the preservation of it so that they can continue using this new found path of least resistance. In this case the cycle started with the mulitple mwd nerf. We had battleships zooming around firing torps at ppl that could not hit them back. Thoraxes doing 0-190 kms in 10 seconds and some scorpions that just didn't stay in grid for more than a couple of seconds. This was not wanted and was subsequently nerfed. There was a lot of discussion on how this was the end of eve, that the liberty of fitting your slots as you wanted was thrown out the window, the hauler pilots said the 15km haul to the gate was too long without a couple of small mwds fitted, etc etc. I wanted to clutch on to my multiple mwd ship too and never let go. In retrospect this change turned out for the better, because frankly having a hulking battleship outrunning and outmanouvering every normally fitted ship, looks silly and takes from the game. Yeah, despite it being fitted with the best of the best. The base modules like webbers and scramblers had certain speeds in mind when their range and effect were decided. After this came the faction modules(?), implants, the boost to inertial stabilizers and the speed rigs. All these small side effects have pushed up speed and agility back to square one. And unless Tux is out somewhere in azn flying a nanophoon this will get a quick, in eve terms, bump of the nerfbat, or I will eat my hat. And when this happens, there will be a lot of complaining, threats to quit the game and flamage to the left and right, but it's all normal :) Until that happens you can find me in my nanocurse zipping around ;) ------ Simply by pulling on both ends, Chuck Norris can strech diamonds back into coal.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.01.18 16:36:00 - [135] Consider for a moment, the reason that damage modules have a stacking penalty....(I'll give you a hint, it's big, golden, packs 8x Heatsinks...) ...now why should nano's/IStabs be any different? ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.01.18 16:44:00 - [136] Edited by: LUGAL MOP''N''GLO on 18/01/2007 16:40:55 There are very easy ways to counter a nanoed ship. It is a specialty setup, so you need a specialty setup to take it down. Sounds fair and balanced to me ~~~~~~~~~ Caldari. It's so easy a Minmatar could do it.
Dr Felonius Caldari Civilian Purposes Limited	Posted - 2007.01.18 19:38:00 - [137] This is just theoretical, but why not a Scorpion to jam the nanophoon, allowing an interceptor to close to easy web range, allowing the Scorp's cruise missiles to pop the 'phoon?
Domalais Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.18 20:00:00 - [138] Originally by: Dr Felonius This is just theoretical, but why not a Scorpion to jam the nanophoon, allowing an interceptor to close to easy web range, allowing the Scorp's cruise missiles to pop the 'phoon? 1. Smart nanoship pilots run an eccm. Those who don't, will run when they see jamboats. 2. One missed jam and your interceptor is space dust. 3. Scorp dmg output is simply terrible.
Miyazuki Otaru	Posted - 2007.02.08 18:58:00 - [139] I have a perfect nerf for ALL the fast flying ships. Longer skill times... Just ask Albert Einstein about it.
Ashiana	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:05:00 - [140] Originally by: Domalais Originally by: Dr Felonius This is just theoretical, but why not a Scorpion to jam the nanophoon, allowing an interceptor to close to easy web range, allowing the Scorp's cruise missiles to pop the 'phoon? 1. Smart nanoship pilots run an eccm. Those who don't, will run when they see jamboats. 2. One missed jam and your interceptor is space dust. 3. Scorp dmg output is simply terrible. 1) Smart nanoship pilots also run a sensor booster. Two, if possible. And a shield tank, and cap injection, and multiple long range scrams. They do this because they have 12 midslots. Yarr! 2) Because the lock time on a nano-bs is great. Especially as it has no sensor booster on it, because it's packin' eccm. Minmatar ships are also especially known for high sensor strength and lock range. Also, the now-webbed nano-bs will be able to insta-pop the inty before another jam cycle, even with the inty orbiting at 5k/sec and possibly nossing the nano-ship back for cap. 3) Because the nano-bs has a great tank, being unable to shield boost, armor rep, or pack hardeners, extenders or plates.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:42:00 - [141] The only problem here is... With a huge gatecamp, even 30 guys a nano-whatever can escape. It doesn't matter if you have 4 huginns because they can't target him before he's at 90km... In order to actually catch one, there's nothing you can do but wait for the nano-whatever pilot to make a mistake. If he doesn't make a mistake he survives. If he makes a mistake, you still have to take him on (thus, he has a chance). So what does the nano-whatever give you? - Heavy tackling ability - Near impunity to gatecamps (especially in highsec) - The ability to determine your fights - Ability to solo anything smaller than a BS, and some BS's as well. - Tackle interceptors - If you don't screw up you don't lose. - If you do screw up, you don't necessarily lose. ~~~~~~~~~ Ya. It's like that.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:55:00 - [142] Originally by: Dr Felonius This is just theoretical, but why not a Scorpion to jam the nanophoon, allowing an interceptor to close to easy web range, allowing the Scorp's cruise missiles to pop the 'phoon? Because in most situations an interceptor can't catch the nanoship, and second of all... Even if they do, they have to get within web range (10km) which means nos, which means dead interceptor. Also, the nano-phoon I encountered was running at 5,280m/s which means a 90% web would still put him at 528m/s. By the time your ceptor catches him he'll be out of range. 5280m/s means he'll be at 100km in less than 20 seconds. Even if you have 10 rigged ceptors that can catch him, he's already warped before you get in range of scrambling. The only way to catch these things is to wait for them to make a mistake and have enough people there to capitalize on it. 1) Here's a scenario, I'm in my huginn and I have a BS for support. Nano-ship makes a mistake and comes within 34km of me. I web, but I can't scram = he warps. 2)I'm in my huginn with BS and ceptor support. Nano-ship makes a mistake and comes within 34km. I web, ceptor gets to the Nano-ship and scrams. Nano-ship nosses ceptor = dead or useless ceptor = no scram = nano-ship warps. 2a)I'm in my huginn with BS and ceptor support. Nano-ship makes a mistake and comes within 34km. I web and approach, ceptor gets to the Nano-ship and scrams. Nano-ship nosses ceptor = dead or useless ceptor = no scram. This time, I'm able to get within scram range. Here's the problem - I've got him, but he's got me worse. I hit scram, our ceptor warps to save. Out come the drones, he scrams me, he nosses me. All he has to do is determine if he can tank my BS support for enough time to take me down. IF he can't, he turns around, MWD's and saves his hide (My huginn can't web if I don't have any cap). ~~~~~~~~~ Ya. It's like that.
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:01:00 - [143] I wish yelling "nerf" got you permabanned. :P [OMG! CURRENTLY RECRUITING!]
Kunming Outcasts	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:07:00 - [144] Nerf NOS, give it a drawback or counter and things will be magically fixed. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Mordrake MetaForge Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:37:00 - [145] You want Ballance... doubble all Web Mod Ranges. Untill that happens a good Nano pilot is able to easily run from any Huggin packing gang or decimate a gang lacking one at his liesure. "Arte et Marte"
Hesed Hamartia.	Posted - 2007.02.08 23:29:00 - [146] If pulse lasers can hit them, then they're ok. Increase the Istab sig penalty plz.

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