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Venson Bryce Universal Dynamics	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:05:00 - [91] The PvP lot are just not going to be satisfied till all ships are "balanced" at which point the only difference between them is going to be how they look. Hell we might as well be playing rock, paper, scissors. Well no actually because then the whining would turn to "It's not fair the scissors can cut paper but paper can't cut scissors. WTF! NERF SCISSORS !!!!111!!!" Thanks guys for dumbing this game down to that level.
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:05:00 - [92] Originally by: Nev Clavain Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nev Clavain Lol so your 300 mill setup you propose, (notice no hugely expesnive faction nos) can be countered by a crow setup worth under 100 mill, as I have already described. The problem is what?? A domi WD costs 150 mil. A TS nos 70 mil. Good like trying to keep out of nos and in WD range with a SS WD. Also, care to explain what good scrambling a nanoship does without webbing it? Your crow can follow it, true, but your gang will fall behind and not doing much. It has no tank and a crow can beat its shield regen. While it has absoltuely nothing to hit back at a crow doing that speed. Its only option is to head for a gate or station. Now if the gate happens to be covered by a good gang, the nanoBS is in trouble and in for a slow slow death. Unless the enemy throws dare I say it, two nanophoons into the mix! Then you can take your crow and shove it.
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:08:00 - [93] Nanos are the only thing that make the phoon good. If you nerf that we have two useless battleships. -=====-
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:14:00 - [94] Originally by: Chancer One possible solution would be to have a maximum safe speed. Once the ship goes over that speed, it starts to take structure damage. That is genious. Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:16:00 - [95] Originally by: Hllaxiu I'd rather take those iskies and bring a small fleet of Minmatar and Gallente recons. apparently thats not allowed, its not considered a valid counter, for errr some reason....
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:22:00 - [96] Originally by: Xiaodown *frightening ranting and calling me a fanboi for some reason You have clearly never flown a nanoBS, and have very little idea how they work and what they are capable of. WHich kind of makes your participation in this discusiion, and the participation of those like you, irrelevant. YOu seem to think that they are faster then inties. They are not. All inties are capable of a higher top speed than any battleship assuming the optimum fit on both, and the same skills and implants. You seem to think that nano BS has a tank, it doesnt. I'm serious when i say a single crow could break its tank provided it stays out of nos, and stops it from running away. You think I'm exaggerating, thats because you know absolutely nothing about nanBS except that you got pwned by one.
Morden Nok Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:23:00 - [97] Originally by: Nev Clavain Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 18:52:26 Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 18:49:51 Originally by: Morden Nok I'd like to see nanoship proponents give me a way of killing nano-ship without using any of the following: Another nano-ship. Anything that can only be countered by itself is broken. Minmatar Recon Faction gear SO what you are saying is that if you cant catch a fast ship without going fast yourself, something is broken. I would have to disagree. If this is the case then every fast ship in the game needs nerfing until anything can be caught by a badger. No. You're purposefully misquoting what I said. Using a normally faster ship, like cruiser or interceptor is acceptable. I'd like to see you killing a nano-domi with one though. No gang. Originally by: Nev Clavain Speed has no counter other than speed, and that is not just the case for nanoBS. As Webbing is a close range deal (except for minnie recon which is why they come up so often in this - dont see why they are arbitrarily not a valid counter), you will also need speed to get there. Actually why I said no Minmatar recons because I can counter any BS setup with Huginn/Rapier and Lachesis/Arazu. Other reason they're not accepted counter is that they're T2 ships and should not be required to counter single T1 ship. Originally by: Nev Clavain So a t1 fitted nanobattleship is gonna struggle to break 2000 m/s (with no implants) So any t1 fitted ship that can reach that kind of speed and hold a scram and a couple of sensor damps is going to kill it eventually. DPS is not an issue because you will kill it eventually because it has no tank, only need to beat shield regen. First: With rigs, going past 2000m/s is trivial. Second, damps are easily counterable by fitting sensor booster. It's not trivial to drop targeting range below 20 km if target has SB II fitted. Third, you seem to be completely forgetting the inconvenient fact that nano-ship will put his drones, guns and nosses on that tackler. If it is solo, it will then most likely die. Like I said, I doubt that nothing but nano-ship can both tackle a nano-ship and survive long enough, excluding faction gear and Minnie Recons. Originally by: Nev Clavain So try a raven with cruise or heavy missiles will absolutely murder a t1 nanoBS. But yes unless you can catch it and keep it scrambled, it is just going to run away, that is what speed is there for. Same goes for any fast ship. POint is there are ships that can catch it, and ANY ship can murder it if it can catch it. Nano-ship will run away from any ship that can kill it. There is no single non-nano ship that can both tackle and kill it. Here's the imbalance. Originally by: Nev Clavain The point is when you fit a crapload of faction mods onto a nanoship it becomes really very uber, like most battleships do in tanking or ganking or whatever. There is no reason why a t1 fitted battleship should be able to kill a 400 million isk faction -fited equivalent. Otherwise, faction mods would be a waste of money. Problem really is that non-nano ships suitable for tackling nano-ships are usually lacking in cap and fragile, which means the nano-ship can just put hvy nosses + drones / missiles on it and speed away. Besides, it's not like fitting a Rapier that can tackle nano-domi properly is cheap, you need around 200 mil worth of gear to do it. You really have to remember that there that 1) Domi costs 15 mil after insurance. Rapier costs 40 mil after insurance. 2) cov-ops cloaks aren't cheap. Neither are 26+ km scramblers, which you need to stay out of NOS range. Damps won't work if target has sensor booster. Even if he does not have one, staying at 19 km orbit is bit risky. Nano-ships are too good right now and need to be balanced. You probably cried when they nerfed stabs too :P
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:24:00 - [98] Originally by: Venson Bryce Well no actually because then the whining would turn to "It's not fair the scissors can cut paper but paper can't cut scissors. WTF! NERF SCISSORS !!!!111!!!" Thanks guys for dumbing this game down to that level. qft
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:35:00 - [99] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 20:33:06 Originally by: Morden Nok Nano-ships are too good right now and need to be balanced. You probably cried when they nerfed stabs too :P Well after reading that I forgot about taking you seriously. FYI I never used a stab on a combat setup ever. HOwever I'm tired of peoples little game of Hey NEv tell me how we can counter a NanoBS, so i provide a perfectly valid counter, and then they come back with - well what if he fits a sensor booster LoL! What if any ship fits a sensor booster dumbass? Same effect. What if what if what if, it never ends. I tell you a setup and you can obviously think of some module to get arouns it. Thing is the NanoBS doesnt have infinite fitting slots to have all these modules you guys keep thinking of, and afaik can't switch modules in space on the fly, like you can in your arguments. Once again you conveneiently forget how expensive it is to get a battleship to high speeds. Oh with rigs its trivial to get a ship to higher than 2000 m/s. Those rigs cost 50 million each. SO the cost of your 't1' 'standard' domi that you are using in the example has just soared from 15M to 165M. Stop bending everything to your own argument. Stop whining on these forums about things you are too dumb to kill. Yes dumb. Sitting here arguing about nothing can kill it one on one. I dont care, doesnt make it unbalanced to me (even though I've told you how it can be killed one on one). This is a team game and one on one has nothing at all to do with it. If you want one on one, perhaps Yahoo chess is more your speed. I know they can be killed with minimal effort, because i have done so. This is all that really matters. Yes the ideal way to do it involves a couple of people if you want to stop the thing running away. So what? See the post above about rock paper scissors that I quoted. That just about covers anything else I have to say to anyone thinking nanoBS, or NOS, or Snipers, or pretty much anything in the game as it is now, should be nerfed. If people must cry about battleships travelling 8km/s, then the first thing that should be looked at is faction implants, as I have already pointed out.
Leto Twin Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Nev Clavain Nanobattleship defense stuff, many posts of such Once I can find a webber that will web outside of large nos range (20km) if we are assuming that they are not using faction, and a webber that will do the same (not as hard to do, but you need a faction or TII), then I can see my crow helping. Most of the nanophoons I have seen also carry a bunch of acs. Acs eat through interceptors when they try to get into web range. To the other person: You are telling me that a nanodomi doesn't have pretty much the same DPS as a normal Domi? I am thinking the TII drones have the same damage as a non-nanodomi. And the rails (if they are using them and not the nos) will do almost the same damage, because I don't know many domi pilots that use the tracking enhancers and such (whatever the low slot gun modifier is). I have very, very high navigation skills, I fly a crow and they still eat my ship. I am well versed in the ways of the interceptors. I can T2 fit the thing out with ease, have an incredible set-up that can take down many things. There is no lack of damage/tanking/navigation skills for my crow. I have electronic and engineering skills to fit the hell out of my crow. And they still eat me. I admittedly use nanos to move haulers through bubbles. I also sometimes fit one on my crow. I thought about using a nanodomi, maybe I could do a nanoraven for ****s and giggles. But I still feel they need to be a nerf. Nanos are wtfpwnmobiles. You would lose too many interceptors to keep them webbed long enough to kill them. Their MWD bonus makes them the size of a planet, but the missiles can't catch up of the hard hitters.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:47:00 - [101] I wouldn't worry about nano-bs too much. They are the flavor of the month currently, but I'm sure we won't see them again after several patches. The thing is clearly is an exploitation of holes in game mechanics; just like kessies with cruise missiles or double mwd ravens.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:54:00 - [102] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 20:51:31 Originally by: Nev Clavain How can you say that a nanoship doesnt have a reduce in dps? Large guns are just not an option on a ship moving that fast - therefore reduced DPS. Yes, because a domi get's it's dps from it's guns..oh, wait. To repeat myself since you apparently did not get it (or ignored it): NOS is a DPS multiplier Unless you are facing a purely passively tanked setup killing the cap of a target will directly increase your effective dps because it cannot repair any damage you do. And, if it uses active harderners, will recieve up to twice the dps it would if it still had cap. Either you really are thick or are trying to actively mislead the thread. Quote: Alot of your theories dont mean anything when applied to the game. Not one of your theories justifies your point of view which basically says that Battleships shouldnt go fast. They should go slow, and tank and gank, and then in your mind they will be 'balanced'. But you say becaue a nano battleship can now escape from ships setup to be much slower but to tank better and do more damage that this is unfair. Ah, we are in the baseless assumptions/accusations mode again? Firstly, I never said BS shouldn't go fast. You're welcome to show me where. Secondly, no, they shouldn't go slow, tank and gank to be balanced. But in order to counter their survivability advantage they need a disadvantage. Which, as said, ATM isn't reduced effective dps. Quote: A nano battleship can be rendered totally innefective and nullified (if not killed) by ANY gang that is worth its salt. Noone said nanoships cannot be killed. The point is that everything which kills them also kills normally tanked BS. Quote: A faction inty pilot cannot be killed unless he makes the mistake, a covops pilot is the same, a recon pilot, a Titan and Mothership pilot. None of them can solo kill a target which is not alone. Well, exept motherships and titans, but if you make nanoships costing as much as these I won't have any problems with them, too. Quote: They have to pick and choose their targets like any other ship. Exept their possible amount of viaable targets is far greater than other ships. Quote: My reason for leaving them alone is I have no trouble killing them, and I am hardly uber at pvp. Considering the best counter to nanoships are nanoships themselves this is hardly surprising. ECM ships could also counter ECM ships very well.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:56:00 - [103] Originally by: Leto Twin stuff yeah have you flown one? no obviously not if you think putting rails on there is anything but a waste of time. Try hitting something with even small railguns while orbitting at 3500 m/s. Large ones, forget about it. I wish people would actually fly the damn things themselves before coming here to whinge about stuff. Its incredibly frustrating trying to argue against people who have no clue what they are talking about, and sit their listing supposed strengths that are simply fabrication on their part.
Anator Namon	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:57:00 - [104] You whiners need to L2P. Many many setups have been suggested that can beat a nanoBS, but you just say that doesn't matter, that your favorite setup can't. Well, adapt. And it isn't like only one setup can beat them, or that only another NanoBS can beat them. And yes, if your Interceptor is only going 2000m/s you are a sucky pilot.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 20:59:00 - [105] Edited by: Nev Clavain on 17/01/2007 20:58:15 Originally by: Aramendel Either you really are thick or are trying to actively mislead the thread. You are the one that has problems killing a paper thin battleship just cos it goes quite fast... not me. Don't call people stupid just because they don't agree with you, its the most ignorant position you can take. I don't have a problem with them because I enjoy flying them and I have no problem killing them (for the record without using a nanoBS, but yes utilising other fast ships). Once again see the rock paper scissors argument if you want more details of my opinions.
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:00:00 - [106] Originally by: Nev Clavain Originally by: Leto Twin stuff I wish people would actually fly the damn things themselves before coming here to whinge about stuff. Its incredibly frustrating trying to argue against people who have no clue what they are talking about, and sit their listing supposed strengths that are simply fabrication on their part. exactly, this is why I never take the time to try and argue back, just laugh and get ready for the next thing to abuse before it gets nerfed too
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:04:00 - [107] Why does the title still say the tribble with nano's? Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -ISD Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!?
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:08:00 - [108] Originally by: j0sephine "That's hilarious, you don't need a such a huge gang to kill a nano-ship. Once you have it webbed and scrambled you can tear through it's non-existant tank like tissue-paper." That's a bit like saying you don't need more than one ticket to win the lottery... once you pick the right numbers, you're all set -.^ (while technically true, easier said than done) My thoughts exactly. Frankly, I hate the new nano/i-stab craze. It bugs me...the same way stabbabonds bugged me. However...it's allowed, so more power to these pilots. Just because I don't like to play that way doesn't mean these guys shouldn't (unless CCP decides they don't want the game played that way and change the game). The plain fact of the matter is that most of the guys I've seen using these setups/tactics are good pilots anyway and could probably kick much butt with more conventional setups...heheh.
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:13:00 - [109] Originally by: Hllaxiu The solution is to beam all the i-stabs and nanos over to the Klingon ship, where they'll be no tribble at all. (I hope you don't change the topic! ) Go away, Gasbag. We don't want them!
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:13:00 - [110] Warfare has changed? good, Noob pilots used to doing lvl 4 agent missions in their raven with few skill points and spending hours as a blob on a gate are getting killed ? good, about time. Blob battles and gate camps were getting old - any ship setups that help detract from that and add another dynamic is well welcome in my book. If your opponent is flying a nano battleship and is flying at 5-6m/s then he has faction equipment/implants fitted and isk value of over a billion for a set of snakes. If you want to tackle a BS like that your going to need ships fitted to kill them, yes with faction mods. A 25 million fully equipped crow isn't going to do crap, but if you guys can't see the point in having a domination warp scrambler fitted to warp scramble outside of 25km, then i'd think before you type a response.
Quarantine 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:17:00 - [111] Wow, what a load of crappy arguments from both sides here. Just a few points to think about for you: - A nano ship needs to get webbed or cap drained long enough for a normal combat ship to get into web range once, then it dies. - Hitting approach and hoping to be faster isn't the only way to intercept an orbiting ship. No, I'm not talking about just hitting orbit either. - All nano ships operate within nos and neutralizer range. - Nanoships can't web anyone if solo. Reapproach gate and jump out. Oh, and you'd have died in that belt if caught by any ship, so stop whining. - Battleships going into warp as fast as ceptors is dead wrong and needs to be fixed. - Snakes are overpowered, but so are crystals. Let's nerf both and see what happens, huh?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:19:00 - [112] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 21:17:05 Originally by: Nev Clavain You are the one that has problems killing a paper thin battleship just cos it goes quite fast... not me. I did say where? Ah, yes, assumptions again. Quote: Don't call people stupid just because they don't agree with you, its the most ignorant position you can take. No, I call people stupid when they ignore facts, aka when they ARE ignorant. Which you still do, btw. Using nos gives nanoships effeciently a greater dps than regular guns. Compare the effective dps of a Typhoon with 4 ACs, 4 siege launchers and 5 heavies vs a target with average 60% resistance and a LAR2 running and it's effective dps without the ACs vs a target with 20% average resistances and without a LAR2. Or continue to wear blinkers. Your choice. Quote: I don't have a problem with them because I enjoy flying them and I have no problem killing them (for the record without using a nanoBS, but yes utilising other fast ships). To repeat myself, noone said they are not killable. But it requires a specialized gang - which does not have any problems with killing a solo non-nanoBS as well. The only ship which can solo counter a nanoship is a nanoship itself - exept your crow example, of cource. Or haven't you done that yourself and you were then just..what were the words...talking rediculous theories here there and everywhere? Quote: Once again see the rock paper scissors argument if you want more details of my opinions. So, lets see. Single nanoBS counters single non-nanoBS, but is countered by specialized gang. Specialized gang counters nsingle anoBS, but is countered by single non-nanoBS. Single non-nanoBS is counters specialized gang, but is countered by single nanoBS. Spot the error!
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:31:00 - [113] Originally by: Quarantine Wow, what a load of crappy arguments from both sides here. Just a few points to think about for you: - A nano ship needs to get webbed or cap drained long enough for a normal combat ship to get into web range once, then it dies. - Hitting approach and hoping to be faster isn't the only way to intercept an orbiting ship. No, I'm not talking about just hitting orbit either. - All nano ships operate within nos and neutralizer range. - Nanoships can't web anyone if solo. Reapproach gate and jump out. Oh, and you'd have died in that belt if caught by any ship, so stop whining. - Battleships going into warp as fast as ceptors is dead wrong and needs to be fixed. - Snakes are overpowered, but so are crystals. Let's nerf both and see what happens, huh? This post delivers. Thread winner.
Agent 24 Gallente Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:32:00 - [114] Edited by: Agent 24 on 17/01/2007 21:35:00 Edited by: Agent 24 on 17/01/2007 21:30:02 Edited by: Agent 24 on 17/01/2007 21:29:16 Gallente BS, T2 blasters with mid slots: cap booster, scram, web, AB/MWD should leave 2-3 slots for tracking enhancers II and web drones. Usual armor tank, even a nano if you wish :) and slap him. I concur with many people on this thread as it is 50/50 whiners/realists. There are ways to beat nanophoons, it jsut takes some ingenuity and not CCP to hold your hand. Get out there, lose some ships and learn the tactics. TY nanophoons for generating interesting and finger biting fights, I hate you but love the challenge :P P.S. Nerf the whiners, save the world
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:35:00 - [115] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/01/2007 21:17:05 So, lets see. Single nanoBS counters single non-nanoBS, but is countered by specialized gang. Specialized gang counters nsingle anoBS, but is countered by single non-nanoBS. Single non-nanoBS is counters specialized gang, but is countered by single nanoBS. Spot the error! The error is assuming that is correct, which its not. It depends on the individual basis along with setup, skill and small amount of luck that every encounter in EvE depends upon. There are single BS setups that can easily survive a nano ship.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:19:00 - [116] Originally by: Aramendel more stuff Can't be bothered to argue with you any longer. We are never going to agree, it achieves nothing. I agree with everything Quarantine just said. He puts it better than me, and probably plenty of the crappy arguments he referred to were mine. Only one last thing to say, is that of course killing a nanoBS requires a specialised gang to kill it, its a very specialised ship. Its not the only ship in the game like this. If it is no problem for you to kill it then why is it in need of massive and immediate nerfage? Its not is the simple answer. It is a ship with a counter like any other. The complexity of the counter is proportional to the pricetag of the ship. A good NanoBS is not cheap in any sense, and the pilot is risking alot. The counter is not really that complicated, and if you aren't dead set on actually killing the nanophoon but merely sending it somewhere else, it is very very simple and doable by one person. lol god that turned into about 10 last things to say. Anyway I'm in this thread too much already thats the end of it I promise lol.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:19:00 - [117] I'm scissors. Paper is fine. Nerf rocks. ------------------- ... [OK] ... zOMG!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:34:00 - [118] Originally by: Nev Clavain The complexity of the counter is proportional to the pricetag of the ship. Exept this is exactly not the case. As said, the effect/isk ratio of nanoBS is far far FAR above anything else. Please do any non-nano shipsetup for 300 or even 500 mil (inculding shiprice after insurance) which cannot be killed by 3 t1 fitted BS and is able to kill them.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:42:00 - [119] Edited by: Nicocat on 17/01/2007 22:40:18 Originally by: Quarantine Wow, what a load of crappy arguments from both sides here. Just a few points to think about for you: - A nano ship needs to get webbed or cap drained long enough for a normal combat ship to get into web range once, then it dies. - Hitting approach and hoping to be faster isn't the only way to intercept an orbiting ship. No, I'm not talking about just hitting orbit either. - All nano ships operate within nos and neutralizer range. - Nanoships can't web anyone if solo. Reapproach gate and jump out. Oh, and you'd have died in that belt if caught by any ship, so stop whining. - Battleships going into warp as fast as ceptors is dead wrong and needs to be fixed. - Snakes are overpowered, but so are crystals. Let's nerf both and see what happens, huh? Huh, I'm agreeing with an outbreak. Better pack your **, the world's ending ;) About the second to last part, though, I really, REALLY wish I could enter warp like an inty, instead of a (pokey) cruiser, which is what actually happens. Stabbers beat me into warp, Ruppies do not. Addendum: If we ever see formation flying, you won't see many horribly effective nano ships anymore. As stated, a trio of ships in a 20km-on-a-side triangle really ruins an orbit. ---------------------------- Originally by:** Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
Machanara	Posted - 2007.01.17 22:47:00 - [120] Well, lets put it this way folks.....everyone knows that people will fit ships when they hear of a way they can kill others and not be killed( not often at all) Everyone will do it. Thatis how you know you have something that is being used that was not per design. Everyone in Eve does it and then 1000 whining threads about it. Well, everyone is now nanoing/stabbing ever single ship they can get their hands on. Raxs doing 7km/s, Phoons doing 5km++/s, cerberus doing 5km/s...the list doesnt end. THIS is how you know something needs to be nerfed. Exact same way they had to nerf Sensor boosters, tracking comps, WCS, DMG mods...and that list keeps going too. Again, why?? becasue everyone, their mother, brother and dog abused it. Nothing different here with nanos/ISTABS and you can damn well expect a nerf on them too. Dont blame the whiners...blame yourselves for abusing it.

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