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+++ Eagle needs a fifth turret please! ½½½

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Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX	Posted - 2007.01.21 10:27:00 - [31] Yeah! Boost Caldari! ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
Waxau Liberty Rogues Phoenix Supremacy	Posted - 2007.01.21 11:31:00 - [32] Oh dear god. I wasnt sure if i should post in this thread but i think someone needs to beat some of you with an informed ugly stick. Eagle has rather poor dps. Its not enough (with rails) to pop anything bigger than a cruiser, before they can warp off. And those cruisers are only things such as osprey, exequror, and so on. However since the hp boost several changes has made the eagle a bit harder to fly - not so much the range reduction on Spike, but more so, the hp boost itself. Eagles are no longer able to pop frigates as easily. And whilst as a valid point was made, that making a frigate warp does the job...in many ways it doesn't. Pvp is about combat - And that usually implies killing. I personally think a 5th turret wouldn't overpower the eagle, as ive flown them for 1.5 years, and am very familiarized with its dps, compared to other hacs. The argument some may use here is that the eagle is specialized etc. And yes - it is. But thats no reason to limit its dps, due to own preference. By adding a 5th turret, the dps will not rival other hacs. But more make the eagle more balanced in its role. I can grab a moa, and do just the same as an eagle. The resistances dont matter, if im sniping. im long range, so i dont tank. So moa would be just as good. and if someone can hit me at 150km, then most likely they'll be able to hit me at 200km. The skills needed, and the cash, to outfit an eagle effectively is currently 'slightly' unbalanced, as many other ships can do that role JUST as well. This reminds me very much of the nighthawk situation. A ship which requires many skills, iskies, and time - and can have its job done by a less-skill-intensive ship. But then again - Im sure this 'request' will just turn into flame wars, and all the 'gah - caldari is overpowered monkey crap' stuff as usual. ps. - thorax has 5 turret slots too.
Nir The Doldrums	Posted - 2007.01.21 13:02:00 - [33] Originally by: Goumindong The eagle does not need 5 turrets. It is not a great blasterboat, but it is not a terrible blasterboat. There is no reason it should eclipse the Zealot. An Eagle with 5 turrets would do 9.375% more damage than a Zealot. The Eagle is a sniper ship first and foremost and it is there that its damage is lacking. For a ship with a 110m ISK pricetag what we get is a very expensive pod and shuttle cleaner. As for the Deimos retarded kid brother, the Beagle. If i'm honest I have never even seen one ingame so I doubt they're as much as a problem as some in this thread are saying. Even if it had 5 turrets there is no way a Beagle is going to kill a Zealot. For starters it is slow as hell, has 1 medslot to tackle with and no cap injector unless you start severely weakening the tank. All the Zealot would have to do in order to win is to stay at 18-19km and he's well into the Beagles fall off while he does full damage with heavy pulse.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.21 13:18:00 - [34] Originally by: PeeKaaBoo a 110m ISK ship Nuff said. Eagle don't need no turret, altho it could use a smallish boost elsewhere. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.21 13:18:00 - [35] Sorry, did someone actually suggest removing some turrets from the Rokh? Are we playing the same game? As for the Eagle yes it needs an extra turret slot. It does perform a valuable role in a fleet situation but it struggles now. Any recon (apart from Caldari of course) or Gallente turret ship is considerably more effective at killing frigates, even at some range. Everyone ignores the Eagle at 200km until the end of the fight anyway. Personally I'd be quite happy if it had a maximum range of 150km and more damage. Of course the most obvious evidence that suggests its poor is right in front of you everytime you undock, barely anyone flies it. Understand that me posting this doesn't mean I think the Sacrilege, diemos and whatever else should be ignored, so think before you type yeah?
Waxau Liberty Rogues Phoenix Supremacy	Posted - 2007.01.21 13:19:00 - [36] Actually beagles are pretty good - And having a 5th turret wouldnt make them overpowered before anyone mentions it. Atm an average setup is 4 blasters, 2 nos. If a person has 5 turrets on a beagle, they only can have 1 nos. Its simple maths:P
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.21 13:24:00 - [37] Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/01/2007 13:20:30 Aye the nos and tank make the Beagle not the damage. It doesn't outdamage close range ships of a similar size/price.
Charlie Seriya	Posted - 2007.01.21 13:52:00 - [38] 25m3 Drone Bay please!
Arzal Caldari Union Aerospace Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.21 14:15:00 - [39] theres no need for the drone bay, if the ship is used for its correct use which is at 200ks you don't need drones, its use is a fleep ship, and it was a good one, but now with the health bonuses (as mentioned) it needs abit more bang for you buck. i recon another high slit wouldn't overbalace it, just my fear is that people will decide... "hang on... i could fit blasters to this..." then it could become.. well a pain. if you catch my drift.
Waxau Liberty Rogues Phoenix Supremacy	Posted - 2007.01.21 15:02:00 - [40] Actually - it will unbalance it. As i said, i suggest an extra turret - NOT an extra highslot too.

Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX	Posted - 2007.01.21 15:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Waxau Actually - it will unbalance it. As i said, i suggest an extra turret - NOT an extra highslot too. I want the same thing for Retribution. ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
Waxau Liberty Rogues Phoenix Supremacy	Posted - 2007.01.21 15:33:00 - [42] yes - However theres a big difference - This is a thread regarding the eagle, not the retribution......
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.21 15:39:00 - [43] "However since the hp boost several changes has made the eagle a bit harder to fly - not so much the range reduction on Spike, but more so, the hp boost itself. Eagles are no longer able to pop frigates as easily." Yes, because the point of hp boost was to make ships harder to pop. Including frigates. So in this sense it achieves the desired effect... for everyone, and demanding the extra turret on the ship to counter that is essentially asking "omg let everyone else struggle with the hp boost but this one ship should be given special treatment"
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.01.21 17:29:00 - [44] Originally by: j0sephine "However since the hp boost several changes has made the eagle a bit harder to fly - not so much the range reduction on Spike, but more so, the hp boost itself. Eagles are no longer able to pop frigates as easily." Yes, because the point of hp boost was to make ships harder to pop. Including frigates. So in this sense it achieves the desired effect... for everyone, and demanding the extra turret on the ship to counter that is essentially asking "omg let everyone else struggle with the hp boost but this one ship should be given special treatment" Good, we are on the same page. It is a specialized hac, that fails miserable at it's role. fix it please.
LordInvisible Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.21 17:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: j0sephine "However since the hp boost several changes has made the eagle a bit harder to fly - not so much the range reduction on Spike, but more so, the hp boost itself. Eagles are no longer able to pop frigates as easily." Yes, because the point of hp boost was to make ships harder to pop. Including frigates. So in this sense it achieves the desired effect... for everyone, and demanding the extra turret on the ship to counter that is essentially asking "omg let everyone else struggle with the hp boost but this one ship should be given special treatment" Good, we are on the same page. It is a specialized hac, that fails miserable at it's role. fix it please. this HAC is specialized in sniping, not in one volley frig poping.. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.21 17:58:00 - [46] Originally by: Waxau By adding a 5th turret, the dps will not rival other hacs. But more make the eagle more balanced in its role. By adding a 5th turret, it will do more damage than a Zealot with its guns. What part of this dont you understand? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.21 18:00:00 - [47] Originally by: Shi Mun I say give the eagle is 5th turret and if need be (balance the other hacs). Giving it a 5th doesnt really make it overpowered as far as i could see. Just as an example tho - the thorax has 4 guns hardpoints and the deimos has 5. So why cant the eagle have 5? its not like it has the double damage bonus and atm with 4, its kinda useless... There are two ships that get an extra turret/launcher over their tech 1 variant. The Muninn and the Vagabond. The Muninn doesnt get a damage bonus for the HAC skill, and the Vagabond is overpowered... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2007.01.21 18:02:00 - [48] The Vagabond's damage is overpowered? News to me. If anything, the muninn is underpowered. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.21 18:10:00 - [49] Originally by: Tasty Burger The Vagabond's damage is overpowered? News to me. If anything, the muninn is underpowered. The Vagabond is the only HAC to get more than a single damage bonus with its primary weapon system over its tech 1 variant. Ships that dont get 25% are... Ishtar (200% bonus + Drone Speed Drawbacks, 66% with sentry drones] Cerberus (33% bonus: RoF instead of damage, still a single damage bonus) Sacriledge (0% bonus: Damage bonus offsets loss of turret) Vagabond (56.25% bonus: Damage bonus over Stabber and an extra turret) The muninn does fine damage ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.21 18:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Waxau By adding a 5th turret, the dps will not rival other hacs. But more make the eagle more balanced in its role. By adding a 5th turret, it will do more damage than a Zealot with its guns. What part of this dont you understand? Could you show the math for that? I don't seem to be getting values anywhere near what you are getting. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson

Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.21 18:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Goumindong Ishtar (200% bonus + Drone Speed Drawbacks, 66% with sentry drones] A turret is lost from the Vexor -> Ishtar transition, you didn't add that in there. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2007.01.21 18:30:00 - [52] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Tasty Burger The Vagabond's damage is overpowered? News to me. If anything, the muninn is underpowered. The Vagabond is the only HAC to get more than a single damage bonus with its primary weapon system over its tech 1 variant. Ships that dont get 25% are... Ishtar (200% bonus + Drone Speed Drawbacks, 66% with sentry drones] Cerberus (33% bonus: RoF instead of damage, still a single damage bonus) Sacriledge (0% bonus: Damage bonus offsets loss of turret) Vagabond (56.25% bonus: Damage bonus over Stabber and an extra turret) The muninn does fine damage This is true. However... I'm sure you are aware that the stabber has absolutely horrible DPS. It wouldn't be a heavy assault class without the extra turret. Why do the ships need to get the same bonuses over their t1 counterparts anyway? - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.21 18:41:00 - [53] Originally by: j0sephine "However since the hp boost several changes has made the eagle a bit harder to fly - not so much the range reduction on Spike, but more so, the hp boost itself. Eagles are no longer able to pop frigates as easily." Yes, because the point of hp boost was to make ships harder to pop. Including frigates. So in this sense it achieves the desired effect... for everyone, and demanding the extra turret on the ship to counter that is essentially asking "omg let everyone else struggle with the hp boost but this one ship should be given special treatment" True, but its debatable as to whether the Eagle ever did enough damage in the first place, regardless of hitpoint changes. I think the problem is frigs got harder but they don't move or warp any slower, result: no-one wants to fly the Eagle.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.21 19:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Waxau By adding a 5th turret, the dps will not rival other hacs. But more make the eagle more balanced in its role. By adding a 5th turret, it will do more damage than a Zealot with its guns. What part of this dont you understand? Could you show the math for that? I don't seem to be getting values anywhere near what you are getting. RoF is the same, so all skill bonuses normalize, and only ship bonuses/turrets are left. Zealot DPS w/ HP skill normalized = 3.6 x 1.25 x 4 / .75 = 24 Eagle DPS w/ Neut skill normalized = 4.2 x 1.25 x 5 =26.25 26.25/24 = 1.09375 OR Eagle would do 9.375% more dps than the Zealot. Eagle also has two launchers which it can use to increase DPS farther. Originally by: Tasty Burger This is true. However... I'm sure you are aware that the stabber has absolutely horrible DPS. It wouldn't be a heavy assault class without the extra turret. Why do the ships need to get the same bonuses over their t1 counterparts anyway? By that logic the Zealot should be a 5 turret beast and the Sacriledge should have 5 and a double damage bonus. Both these options dont seem balanced to me. The benefit of the Stabber has always been its speed[and disposability], it doesnt need such a DPS increase to achieve its goal. And no, the Stabber does not have terrible DPS. The omen only does 11% more damage than it with its guns(primary weapon system), and the Stabber has two missile hardpoints on top to help out with that[compared to 1 on the omen, which it cant really fit anyway]. The omen has 10 m^3 more drone space. Which means that no, the Stabber does not really do "terrible DPS" it does as much or nearly as much DPS as the comparable amarran boat[which is slower, larger, and just as fragile(due to fitting issues with lasers)] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Goumindong Ishtar (200% bonus + Drone Speed Drawbacks, 66% with sentry drones] A turret is lost from the Vexor -> Ishtar transition, you didn't add that in there. Yes, a turret is lost, and I should have mentioned that, however, even then, the Ishtar does considerable amounts of damage more than the Vexor. The real downside of the Ishtar that offets the large damage bonus[which is probably too large] is the speed of heavy drones and their lack of effectiveness agaisnt smaller targets. Really the damage bonus should be light/med drones only or the drone bay too small to fit heavies + extras. But that is another issue and one I dont really want to get into. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Arzal Caldari Union Aerospace Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.21 19:29:00 - [55] Originally by: Waxau Actually - it will unbalance it. As i said, i suggest an extra turret - NOT an extra highslot too. i meant turret slot, not high, i was half asleep at the time...
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span	Posted - 2007.01.21 19:44:00 - [56] i say sure as long as my zealot gets a 5th gun x_X --- If i'm posting on the forums, it's mostly cause i'm at work :D
Nir The Doldrums	Posted - 2007.01.21 19:46:00 - [57] Originally by: Goumindong stuff Look, so far all you've done is compare DPS figures and not looked at the ships themselves. What a Zealot has to do with the Eagle is beyond me because they fill very different roles. So the whole Beagle discussion here is pointless. A Blaster Eagle is slow and does not have medslots to tackle with. If you flew one you'd know this already. A Zealot would outrange and outdamage a Beagle in every encounter. If the Eagle had a second medslot for tackling purposes and the agility or speed of a Zealot, I might be inclined to agree. But you can't simply throw up some DPS charts and start making outrageous claims.
korrey Taurus Inc	Posted - 2007.01.21 19:55:00 - [58] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Waxau By adding a 5th turret, the dps will not rival other hacs. But more make the eagle more balanced in its role. By adding a 5th turret, it will do more damage than a Zealot with its guns. What part of this dont you understand? Zealot has double damage bonuses, RoF and damage. Also IIRC conflagration has better damage per crystal than short range blaster ammo. Just give th eeagle its turret and let this thread die
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.21 20:08:00 - [59] id prefer extra mid on the eagle tbh *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.21 20:27:00 - [60] Originally by: korrey Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Waxau By adding a 5th turret, the dps will not rival other hacs. But more make the eagle more balanced in its role. By adding a 5th turret, it will do more damage than a Zealot with its guns. What part of this dont you understand? Zealot has double damage bonuses, RoF and damage. Also IIRC conflagration has better damage per crystal than short range blaster ammo. Just give th eeagle its turret and let this thread die I just showed you, in plain simple math, how a 5 turret eagle would do more damage than the current Zealot. Here is a simple way to figure it out. 4 x 1.25= 5. So a Zealot, with 4 turrets is like a 5 turret ship that gets an ROF bonus. And blasters do more damage than lasers such that 1.33xheavy pulse/1.25x neutron is less than 1. Similarly, conflaglaration not only does the same amount of damage as all other short range tech 2 ammo, but in the case of blaster ammo, it as a significantly worse penalty, such that the zealot would only outrange the beagle by 2-3km with conflag and void. Originally by: Nir Originally by: Goumindong stuff Look, so far all you've done is compare DPS figures and not looked at the ships themselves. What a Zealot has to do with the Eagle is beyond me because they fill very different roles. So the whole Beagle discussion here is pointless. A Blaster Eagle is slow and does not have medslots to tackle with. If you flew one you'd know this already. A Zealot would outrange and outdamage a Beagle in every encounter. If the Eagle had a second medslot for tackling purposes and the agility or speed of a Zealot, I might be inclined to agree. But you can't simply throw up some DPS charts and start making outrageous claims. It would ourrange, yes, but not out-damage. The Eagle should not be an inside heavy hitter and the best long range sniper[which you want to do make even farther] at the same time. The Zealot despite its optimal bonus is effective mainly as a medium range pulse ship with scorch. The comparisons are such to compare, and to remove the ridiculous idea that a 5 turret eagle would not out-damage any other HAC. The Eagle is a sniper, it performs its role very very well. It does not need to also be awesome as a blastership, if you want to do that, train into a deimos. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"



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