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F Apparition
Minmatar
MAFIA
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2007.01.21 20:35:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Goumindong
It does not need to also be awesome as a blastership, if you want to do that, train into a deimos.
Because the Deimos is such a great blastership. 
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.01.21 21:01:00 -
[62]
Originally by: F Apparition
Originally by: Goumindong
It does not need to also be awesome as a blastership, if you want to do that, train into a deimos.
Because the Deimos is such a great blastership.
Well, the Brutix is better, but for a cruiser, its the best you can get.
The deimos's problems stem from range really, since it cant outrange a brutix you might as well fly the higher damage, better repping biigger ship. Its not a ship problem its a problem that the role is taken up by the brutix already. This issue can be mitigated by fitting rails, though not perfectly.
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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Oiri Yusko
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.01.21 21:12:00 -
[63]
Temporary lock. Removing hijack/off topic posts.
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Nir
The Doldrums
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Posted - 2007.01.21 21:35:00 -
[64]
Last post on the subject, to be honest all high tier HACs need looking at and not just the Eagle.
Originally by: Goumindong
It would ourrange, yes, but not out-damage.
Beagle DPS at 18km DPS = lower than a Zealots at the same range I assure you. I don't hear AC Pest pilots complaining that Blasterthrons deal more DPS inside 6km. Besides even if the fight DID start at say, 5km the Zealot can dictate range unless the Eagle is armor tanking or something crazy like that - in which case he's going down regardless.
Originally by: Goumindong
The Eagle is a sniper, it performs its role very very well. It does not need to also be awesome as a blastership, if you want to do that, train into a deimos.
Even if an Eagle had SIX turrets, it would still be an inferior blaster ship to the Deimos. Without a webifier or webifier drones and with it being a slow ship it can't simply can't pin targets down.
This isn't about Blasters, its about the damage output of an Eagle at long range. It sucks, it was always mediocre but the changes in Revelations really make it stand out clear as day.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.01.21 21:58:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Goumindong
Zealot DPS w/ HP skill normalized = 3.6 x 1.25 x 4 / .75 = 24
Eagle DPS w/ Neut skill normalized = 4.2 x 1.25 x 5 =26.25
26.25/24 = 1.09375 OR Eagle would do 9.375% more dps than the Zealot.
Eagle:
am/250II: 3.3*24*1.25*5/6.38 = 77.58
am/200II: 2.4*24*1.25*5/4.88 = 73.77
am/HNB: 4.2*24*1.25*5/5.25 = 120
am/HIB: 3.375*24*1.25*5/4.5 = 112.5
am/HEB: 2.1*24*1.25*5/3 = 105
Zealot:
mf/HBL: 3.6*24*1.25*4/(6*.75) = 96
mf/FMBL: 2.4*24*1.25*4/(4.8*.75) = 80
mf/QLBM: 1.8*24*1.25*4/(3.15*.75) = 91.42 (huh?)
mf/HPL: 3.6*24*1.25*4/(5.25*.75) = 109.75
mf/FMPL: 2.4*24*1.25*4/(4.05*.75) = 94.81
It should be noted that without a major grid bonus, it will be very difficult to have a usable heavy neutron blaster setup on the Eagle, making any short range DPS advantage questionable at best. Using long range weapons, which is what the Eagle is intended to fit, the Eagle deals less damage, but it of course has the range bonus. With practical considerations considered, I'd say that the zealot is probably still the better short range ship, if only due to mobility and 2 more tanking slots (that are not completing with other stuff).
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Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.01.21 23:24:00 -
[66]
Quad light beams are more similar to pulse lasers really, except they really really suck instead of just completly sucking. It would be like having another blaster option that was worse than electron blasters.
They have 1km falloff and 9.6km range for the tech 2 version, which makes them into a viable option for the Omen and Maller[if they want to do even less than an FMP version with no falloff and less range] but not exactly a quality product.
Before the gleam(and other tech 2 ammo) nerf they were viable alternatives to FMPs for really short range tank setups. Not really so much anymore.
That should fix the QLB confusion.
As for the rest, yes, higher damage in the short range, lower damage and MUCH higher range in the long.
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.01.21 23:26:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Nir
Last post on the subject, to be honest all high tier HACs need looking at and not just the Eagle.
Originally by: Goumindong
It would ourrange, yes, but not out-damage.
Beagle DPS at 18km DPS = lower than a Zealots at the same range I assure you. I don't hear AC Pest pilots complaining that Blasterthrons deal more DPS inside 6km. Besides even if the fight DID start at say, 5km the Zealot can dictate range unless the Eagle is armor tanking or something crazy like that - in which case he's going down regardless.
Originally by: Goumindong
The Eagle is a sniper, it performs its role very very well. It does not need to also be awesome as a blastership, if you want to do that, train into a deimos.
Even if an Eagle had SIX turrets, it would still be an inferior blaster ship to the Deimos. Without a webifier or webifier drones and with it being a slow ship it can't simply can't pin targets down.
This isn't about Blasters, its about the damage output of an Eagle at long range. It sucks, it was always mediocre but the changes in Revelations really make it stand out clear as day.
The damage output of the Eagle at long range is fine...
160 DPS @ 180-200km and not a single frigate aside from an afterbruning interceptor that can outrun you.
240 damage with antimatter @ 57km
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Tunajuice
Convergent
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.21 23:46:00 -
[68]
The whole freaking line of caldari ships needs another turrent a touch of powergrid. The moa to harpy to eagle to ferox.. they are all 1 turrent short. They already give up a DPS bonus for a range bonus, also taking away a turrent is the nail in the coffin.
of ALL the +50% to optimal range ships, the ONLY one worth it's weight is the rokh.. and that is because it has 8 turret slots. If it had 7 it would again be useless, and you would be better training up gallente BS for their better turrent BS's. The rokh was made balanced, in that it does REASONABLE dps, while having a tiny range bonus over other BS. All the other ships really need adjusted..
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues
Phoenix Supremacy
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Posted - 2007.01.21 23:55:00 -
[69]
Well Gormindong - Im going to take a WILD guess and say you dont fly an eagle, but fly a zealot.
Let me lay it out simply : The eagle, EVEN BEFORE Revelations lacked the damage to be a considerable threat to anything other than frigates. Even then, a skilled frigate pilot would be able to speed tank an eagle indeffinately - no matter what range.
Now - for some reason, you're applying everything to blasters. So we'll play on your playing field. But lets just at a twist. Lets talk about the deimos and eagle.
Now - The eagle. At the moment, it has 4 turrets, 6 high slots - So naturally, 2 nos. The Deimos? 5 turrets, 1 nos. Simple no?
Now lets take into account the bonuses. The eagle has a range bonus - Oh wow, it can shoot outside web range. Amazingly useful eh? Oh and lets not forget that its a shield tanker - So byebye capacitor, and longevity in tanking.
The deimos however...armor tanking - so more sustainable and less micro-management. The huge damage bonuses which allow 9.8 damage mods achieveable, compared to the eagles 4.7. OH and who can forget that wonderful drone bay.
If the eagle achieved its extra turret, the deimos would be far superior, in gangs or 1v1. The deimos would have far superior damage, and if the eagle kept the same number of high slots, would have the same highslot layout as the deimos.
And just to make things that much simpler - we'll just throw in the tanks shall we?
Eagle - 5 medium slots.
Deimos - 6 low slots.
Now im sure that alone will allow anyone with common sense, see who can fit the strongest tank. Now although the eagle does have resistance bonuses, with an extra 'tanking slot' than the eagle, the deimos can achieve those 'ship bonuses' it fails to have.
And whats that you say? The eagle needs its med slots for tackling? By Jove youre right!
So lets use a general setup shall we? a scrambler, a web, a shield booster, an EM hardener and GAH! One slot left....now we have a choice here..we can either fill out the precious low slots which we need for the damage with either damage mods OR pdu/rcu so we can actually fit that precious mwd. Oh wait - Guess we'll have to settle with an AB, with a top speed of 400ms.
Now tell me - Even with that extra turret, do you STILL think the eagle with blasters would win?
My point is proven.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.22 00:27:00 -
[70]
Our fleets suck coz we actually do have some eagles in them.
Eagle is fine. The whole HP increase was completely unnecessary, together with damage nerf on ammo and resulted in omfgannoying nanofgtry that used to die before it covered distance to anything.
But if HP increase wasted eagle's sniping ability, how did it result on gunboats that use more cap(zealot) etc.
That said, I don't fly eagle, but sometimes I wish i could(apart from other hacs, that i really don't care about).
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What is local devoid of smack?
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.22 00:33:00 -
[71]
"If it had 7 it would again be useless, and you would be better training up gallente BS for their better turrent BS's."
That's the idea, yes.
* Gallente -- all-out turret ships, drones at close range
* Caldari -- mix of turrets and missiles. strong tank to balance out the lower dps
if *all* you want is ****load of damage raining from huge shiny guns then yes, train and fly Gallente ships. That's what they specialize in.
I seriously don't see the need to have two races with identical fighting profile. Even if one of the devs goes by name of Redundancy o.O;
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.01.22 01:59:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Audri Fisher on 22/01/2007 01:57:42
Originally by: LUKEC
Our fleets suck coz we actually do have some eagles in them.
Eagle is fine. The whole HP increase was completely unnecessary, together with damage nerf on ammo and resulted in omfgannoying nanofgtry that used to die before it covered distance to anything.
But if HP increase wasted eagle's sniping ability, how did it result on gunboats that use more cap(zealot) etc.
That said, I don't fly eagle, but sometimes I wish i could(apart from other hacs, that i really don't care about).
unbonused cap use of med nuetron II = 1.65 cap/sec
unbonused cap use of 250mm rail II = 1.56 cap/sec
with controlled burst at 5, the difference in cap use is a whopping .06 cap/sec.
this whole thing on blaster users complaining about cap use over rails is beyond me.
That difference is more than made up for with 0 cap use ean II's.
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.22 04:13:00 -
[73]
"this whole thing on blaster users complaining about cap use over rails is beyond me."
Lukec said Zealot there... ^^;; lasers with 25% extra rof do eat quite a bit more cap than the rails on the Eagle, even with cap use bonus maxed out (~15% extra for pulses, 60% for beams... well if anyone actually fits the beams :s
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.01.22 07:48:00 -
[74]
Originally by: j0sephine
"this whole thing on blaster users complaining about cap use over rails is beyond me."
Lukec said Zealot there... ^^;; lasers with 25% extra rof do eat quite a bit more cap than the rails on the Eagle, even with cap use bonus maxed out (~15% extra for pulses, 60% for beams... well if anyone actually fits the beams :s
I need to train reading past level I
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Gyro DuAquin1
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.01.22 09:22:00 -
[75]
eagle never was ment to be a hard hitting vessel its more a "get away from my battleship fellaws" vessel. Flewn it quiet often it was ment to chase ppl off, or kill ppl not being fast enough, with a good setup, u can easily kill ceptor, t1 cruisers in no time. Just have to choose the right targets.
And ive seen loads of ppl in eagle failing in that. If u are trying to kill ppl already orbiting ur battleships its too late, have to get those far away, so its probally a good idea to stay away from your battleships 60km and then kill ppl with t1 ammo, or kill the t1 cruiers with the enemie gang.
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.01.22 09:25:00 -
[76]
The Eagle is the only HaC capable of hitting at and beyond 150km+ !! That gives it a fairly good role in my opinion 
It's DPS at that range shouldn't be amazing, For comparison a Zealot with 4 Heavy Beam II /Aurora and 3 heat sink II only has <20dps more than the Eagle. While having around 2/3rd's of the range.
Seems fairly balanced to me, Look at the ships bonus's, It wasn't designed to be an up close and personal DPS machine.
Alliaanna
[FOR SALE]25Mill Sp Amarr Char + Hauler Alt
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Sherpondeldey
Minmatar
SolaR KillerS
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Posted - 2007.01.22 12:07:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Sherpondeldey on 22/01/2007 12:09:55
omg! All i see is gallente whinners again.
boost minmatar! give us base 35% kinetic resist to armor or something... 7 turret slots on Claymore (look at EOS) would be fine
Eagle is fine as it is. It has its role in fleet. You need to try it.
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Daos Leghki
Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.22 13:09:00 -
[78]
I'm gonna go out on a limb here. All you Eagle people are pointing to the Rokh and saying that every other Caldari turret ship sucks, is underpowered, etc, and only the Rokh is OK. Perhaps it's the design intent to have the Caldari line be short some damage in exchange for range, and the Rokh was a mistake? It isn't really coincidence that the Merlin, Moa, Ferox and Eagle all do less damage than their other counterparts, but also tank well and have good range.
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Mar vel
Caldari
H.Y.D.R.A.
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:33:00 -
[79]
The EOS / Astarte got 7x turret hardpoint AND (in the case of the EOS) a 300 m3 Drone Bay, lol.
Eagle is incredibly underpowered in terms of cobat effectiveness.
If CCP is going to leave as-is, jack the PG by about 300 so I can run by neutron beagle w/o 2x RCU2's, and give it a drone bay of 25 m3. Then it would be on par with the other HACs.
kthxbye
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
For the lovbe of God yes, 5th turrtet please! and 1-2 more turrets for the Ferox and Vulture FFS!
The EOS and Astarte get 7 trurret points, why don't we?
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.22 18:53:00 -
[80]
"The EOS / Astarte got 7x turret hardpoint AND (in the case of the EOS) a 300 m3 Drone Bay, lol."
And they're field/fleet command ships while Eagle is heavy assault cruiser. Nighthawk/Vulture are both able to equip 7 weapons, 'though not of them will be turrets.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.01.22 20:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Mar vel
The EOS / Astarte got 7x turret hardpoint AND (in the case of the EOS) a 300 m3 Drone Bay, lol.
Eagle is incredibly underpowered in terms of cobat effectiveness.
If CCP is going to leave as-is, jack the PG by about 300 so I can run by neutron beagle w/o 2x RCU2's, and give it a drone bay of 25 m3. Then it would be on par with the other HACs.
kthxbye
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
For the lovbe of God yes, 5th turrtet please! and 1-2 more turrets for the Ferox and Vulture FFS!
The EOS and Astarte get 7 trurret points, why don't we?
You can run a neutron beagle without 2x RCU's... With AWU 0 you should have 150 PG left over. With AWU 3 you should have 206 PG left over and with AWU 5 you should have 244 PG left over...
So uhhh, i really dont know how you cant fit a neutron beagle without two RCU's, considering the amount of PG you have left over with rather pathetic skills.
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
CherniyVolk
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Posted - 2007.01.23 02:17:00 -
[82]
If the Eagle gets another turret slot, the the Deimos better get another turret slot (with PG/CPU increase) too!
Six Blasters!!!! :D Plus Medium NOS! :DD
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