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saltrock0000
DottCom
116
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Posted - 2016.01.06 17:50:07 -
[1] - Quote
It would be great if CCP remove learning implants from the game.
Pvping and loosing stat implants (slot 6 and up) no problem as they directly effect pvp performance.
Having to weigh up the lost sp from jumping to a fresh clone without learning implants to have some fun puts me off alot, so i assume it puts others off.
Base learning skill stats with no implants would be cool
o7
\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
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Iain Cariaba
2287
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Posted - 2016.01.06 18:34:07 -
[2] - Quote
1. CCP has already stated they want to remove learning implants. 2. Until they do, the solution to your fear of losing implants in combat is simple, don't use them.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2172
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Posted - 2016.01.06 19:38:15 -
[3] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:It would be great if CCP remove learning implants from the game.
Pvping and loosing stat implants (slot 6 and up) no problem as they directly effect pvp performance.
Having to weigh up the lost sp from jumping to a fresh clone without learning implants to have some fun puts me off alot, so i assume it puts others off.
Base learning skill stats with no implants would be cool
o7
While I agree with you, there are many, many recent threads on this topic. Please use one of those, rather than cluttering up these forums with a redundant thread.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
603
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Posted - 2016.01.06 21:20:41 -
[4] - Quote
As already mentioned by my fellow forum dwellers, please don't clog the toilet with redundant and unneeded toilet paper. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4078
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Posted - 2016.01.06 23:15:02 -
[5] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:It would be great if CCP remove learning implants from the game.
Pvping and loosing stat implants (slot 6 and up) no problem as they directly effect pvp performance.
Having to weigh up the lost sp from jumping to a fresh clone without learning implants to have some fun puts me off alot, so i assume it puts others off.
Base learning skill stats with no implants would be cool
o7
You're a 2007 character. If you can't afford ~20million for two +3 implants in your PVP clone, you're doing something seriously wrong. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2881
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Posted - 2016.01.07 01:06:06 -
[6] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote: You're a 2007 character. If you can't afford ~20million for two +3 implants in your PVP clone, you're doing something seriously wrong.
The same way character age is not linked to levels & combat abilities directly, it is also not linked to income. You constantly sing out about how this isn't a traditional MMO, yet you then abuse people on the grounds of traditional MMO such as old = rich, when in EVE it doesn't automatically link. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4078
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Posted - 2016.01.07 01:12:09 -
[7] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Danika Princip wrote: You're a 2007 character. If you can't afford ~20million for two +3 implants in your PVP clone, you're doing something seriously wrong.
The same way character age is not linked to levels & combat abilities directly, it is also not linked to income. You constantly sing out about how this isn't a traditional MMO, yet you then abuse people on the grounds of traditional MMO such as old = rich, when in EVE it doesn't automatically link.
Twenty million isk is ~fifteen minutes of ratting. It is not a large amount of money by any standards. If you are flying a ship bigger than a T1 fit frigate, you can probably afford it, and if you're that new, you don't need to be worrying about implants yet.
The link is not old = rich, it's old = knows how to make pocket change. I could understand your point if we were talking hundreds of millions, but we're not. This is less than the cost of an assault frigate. Are you saying that a harpy is a major investment? |
saltrock0000
DottCom
117
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Posted - 2016.01.07 01:31:21 -
[8] - Quote
Im actually talking about 1bil +/- for +5's
\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
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Iain Cariaba
2290
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Posted - 2016.01.07 01:39:15 -
[9] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:Im actually talking about 1bil +/- for +5's Figured you did. You apparently don't realize a few things.
1. A full set of learning implants is a waste of isk. You only need a couple. 2. The reduction in train time for +5s vs. +3s is really negligible. You're only looking at reducing a 30+ day level 5 train by about a day using +5s over +3s. 3. It's must be so terrible for you to have to make choices in this game. I mean, having to make a choice between learning at max possible sp/hr and not being able to PvP, or learning at slightly less than max sp/hr and being able to PvP. Your EvE must be sooooo horrible.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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saltrock0000
DottCom
117
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Posted - 2016.01.07 01:46:12 -
[10] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote: Figured you did. You apparently don't realize a few things.
1. A full set of learning implants is a waste of isk. You only need a couple. 2. The reduction in train time for +5s vs. +3s is really negligible. You're only looking at reducing a 30+ day level 5 train by about a day using +5s over +3s. 3. It's must be so terrible for you to have to make choices in this game. I mean, having to make a choice between learning at max possible sp/hr and not being able to PvP, or learning at slightly less than max sp/hr and being able to PvP. Your EvE must be sooooo horrible.
Unfortauntly its about 5 days difference per month. Means you get 14 months of training in a year if you use +5's... Might not sound like alot but it adds up.
\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4079
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Posted - 2016.01.07 02:20:20 -
[11] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote: Figured you did. You apparently don't realize a few things.
1. A full set of learning implants is a waste of isk. You only need a couple. 2. The reduction in train time for +5s vs. +3s is really negligible. You're only looking at reducing a 30+ day level 5 train by about a day using +5s over +3s. 3. It's must be so terrible for you to have to make choices in this game. I mean, having to make a choice between learning at max possible sp/hr and not being able to PvP, or learning at slightly less than max sp/hr and being able to PvP. Your EvE must be sooooo horrible.
Unfortauntly its about 5 days difference per month. Means you get 14 months of training in a year if you use +5's... Might not sound like alot but it adds up.
I just checked in evemon. (Skill in question is caldari BS V)
29 days 5 hours with +3s becomes 28 5 with +4s, or 27 5 with +5s.
on +3s, you're looking at two days in a month, so twenty four days in a year. My remapping is wonky, call it thirty if you like. It's still not the sixty you're claiming, and you can jump back to your precious +5s when you're done with whatever PVP you were doing. Don't forget the cooldown reductions we got on JCs.
Iain is correct on all counts here. It's a negligible reduction, especially if you can spring for +4s in your PVP clone.
I'm not even going to get in to the whole ISL/LP sink argument here either. Fact is, the issue is in your mind, not in the game mechanics. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1459
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Posted - 2016.01.07 05:05:52 -
[12] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote: Figured you did. You apparently don't realize a few things.
1. A full set of learning implants is a waste of isk. You only need a couple. 2. The reduction in train time for +5s vs. +3s is really negligible. You're only looking at reducing a 30+ day level 5 train by about a day using +5s over +3s. 3. It's must be so terrible for you to have to make choices in this game. I mean, having to make a choice between learning at max possible sp/hr and not being able to PvP, or learning at slightly less than max sp/hr and being able to PvP. Your EvE must be sooooo horrible.
Unfortauntly its about 5 days difference per month. Means you get 14 months of training in a year if you use +5's... Might not sound like alot but it adds up.
I'm just going to assume that if you could afford to fly with better implants, your math skills would be better by now.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Chekov Nikahd
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2016.01.07 09:08:34 -
[13] - Quote
I just want to add that I've actively avoided wormholes and PVP specifically because I didn't want to transfer to a jump clone for a day (or more), losing that training speed benefit from my implants.
Even though I run +3's, even though I have over a billion isk, they are still extremely expensive to replace.
Instead of undocking and flying around doing stuff, I station trade and let my character skill up. They are not a very good mechanic, and much like clone grades they have a detrimental effect on getting people to actually play the game. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4290
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Posted - 2016.01.07 09:13:39 -
[14] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:It would be great if CCP remove learning implants from the game.
Pvping and loosing stat implants (slot 6 and up) no problem as they directly effect pvp performance.
Having to weigh up the lost sp from jumping to a fresh clone without learning implants to have some fun puts me off alot, so i assume it puts others off.
Base learning skill stats with no implants would be cool
o7
Dude you are older than me and thus should have more SP. At 126 million SP...I just can't be bothered to do that kind of calculations....
And if you are cool with base learning skill stats with no implants...then stop using them, there no more bothersome calculations to perform. Just log in and have fun.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
991
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Posted - 2016.01.07 09:21:26 -
[15] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:3. It's must be so terrible for you to have to make choices in this game. I mean, having to make a choice between learning at max possible sp/hr and not being able to PvP
Actually that is a really ****** choice. It's not even a choice, which is kind of the problem.
PvPing in high grade learning (not pirate) implants is flat out stupid without exception. It is as much of a "choice" as not updating your clone in days gone by. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4290
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Posted - 2016.01.07 09:21:29 -
[16] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:saltrock0000 wrote:Im actually talking about 1bil +/- for +5's Figured you did. You apparently don't realize a few things. 1. A full set of learning implants is a waste of isk. You only need a couple. 2. The reduction in train time for +5s vs. +3s is really negligible. You're only looking at reducing a 30+ day level 5 train by about a day using +5s over +3s. 3. It's must be so terrible for you to have to make choices in this game. I mean, having to make a choice between learning at max possible sp/hr and not being able to PvP, or learning at slightly less than max sp/hr and being able to PvP. Your EvE must be sooooo horrible.
Just going by memory here...but if you have +5s in vs. +3s and you are traing some skill...the difference with the +5s will be 3 additional SP/minute, or about 129,600 additional SP/month. Now if you are worried about spending half that time in +3s we are talking about 65,000 SP or so. Like I said, at 126 million its a trivial consideration.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4290
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 09:32:09 -
[17] - Quote
Chekov Nikahd wrote:I just want to add that I've actively avoided wormholes and PVP specifically because I didn't want to transfer to a jump clone for a day (or more), losing that training speed benefit from my implants.
Even though I run +3's, even though I have over a billion isk, they are still extremely expensive to replace.
Instead of undocking and flying around doing stuff, I station trade and let my character skill up. They are not a very good mechanic, and much like clone grades they have a detrimental effect on getting people to actually play the game.
Seriously? You should have about 60-70 million SP...yeah? Maybe more? And yet you are upset because by jumping to an implantless clone you face an opportunity cost of around 6,500 SP for a 24 hour period? Probably less if you Infomorph Synchronizing a few levels.
I'm sorry, but is this the unofficial OCD thread? A single day in a clone without implants is like 0.01% of your SP if you have 65 million SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Sigras
Conglomo
1106
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Posted - 2016.01.07 10:17:23 -
[18] - Quote
The issue I have here is that learning implants do create opportunity cost within the game beyond just ISK.
There is a reason I dont fly with slave sets all the time even though I can afford it... Without these trade-offs there are far fewer reasons not to always sit in at least low-grade pirate implant sets. |
Iain Cariaba
2297
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 12:00:12 -
[19] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:3. It's must be so terrible for you to have to make choices in this game. I mean, having to make a choice between learning at max possible sp/hr and not being able to PvP Actually that is a really ****** choice. It's not even a choice, which is kind of the problem. PvPing in high grade learning (not pirate) implants is flat out stupid without exception. It is as much of a "choice" as not updating your clone in days gone by. Yes, it really is a choice. I have undocked for PvP with a full set of +5s in my head. Why? Because I simply didn't care if I lost them. The fact that you are so scared of losing those precious implants is actually the problem here, not the fact that they exist.
Seriously, if you're so afraid of loss that the mere thought of losing something easily replaced makes you afraid of undocking, then maybe you should find another game to play. I hear there's a few game geared for the preschool-kindergarten demographic where everyone's a special snowflake and no one ever loses anything. Might want to give one of those a try.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Lucy Callagan
SnaiLs aNd FroGs WE FORM V0LTA
36
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Posted - 2016.01.07 12:03:52 -
[20] - Quote
Get HG slaves m8, you'll have more tank and it will be harder to pod you.
Frugu.net
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
998
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Posted - 2016.01.07 12:12:28 -
[21] - Quote
And so was not upgrading your clone. It's a choice in name only.
Given your final sniping comment, I assume you think anyone not officer fitting frigates is a risk averse pansy too? Sorry I'm not space rich enough to lose a few billion a week on pod losses, you're right, I should go play a softer game.
Honestly. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4291
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 17:39:37 -
[22] - Quote
Sigras wrote:The issue I have here is that learning implants do create opportunity cost within the game beyond just ISK.
There is a reason I dont fly with slave sets all the time even though I can afford it... Without these trade-offs there are far fewer reasons not to always sit in at least low-grade pirate implant sets.
Dude, the whole game is full of opportunity costs. You cannot remove opportunity costs entirely. In fact, I'd argue it is those opportunity costs that make the game. You asses these costs then take an action. What the OP here is arguing over though is a trivial opportunity cost. It is like worrying what effect the change in price of pencils in Oregon will have on the price of toilet paper in Finland. There may very well be an effect, but WTF cares?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2399
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Posted - 2016.01.07 19:11:46 -
[23] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:And so was not upgrading your clone. It's a choice in name only.
Given your final sniping comment, I assume you think anyone not officer fitting frigates is a risk averse pansy too? Sorry I'm not space rich enough to lose a few billion a week on pod losses, you're right, I should go play a softer game.
Honestly.
Not even close. Yes upgrading your clone was kind of a choice in name only. The choice of Learning implants is purely a choice. You can choose higher level implants, train a bit faster and risk more or not.
In my entire time playing EVE I have never used above +3 learning implants, and amazingly it has not negatively impacted my EVE experience.
I hope they leave learning implants in, if for no other reason I can continue to read these wonderful threads. |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
999
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Posted - 2016.01.07 22:44:08 -
[24] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:And so was not upgrading your clone. It's a choice in name only.
Given your final sniping comment, I assume you think anyone not officer fitting frigates is a risk averse pansy too? Sorry I'm not space rich enough to lose a few billion a week on pod losses, you're right, I should go play a softer game.
Honestly. Not even close. Yes upgrading your clone was kind of a choice in name only. The choice of Learning implants is purely a choice. You can choose higher level implants, train a bit faster and risk more or not. In my entire time playing EVE I have never used above +3 learning implants, and amazingly it has not negatively impacted my EVE experience. I hope they leave learning implants in, if for no other reason I can continue to read these wonderful threads.
So you wuss out of using +5s. You enjoying that choice? Are you like Iain would say, "too scared" to use high end implants?
Your post doesn't make the point you think it does. There is NOT a choice if one PvPs regularly. You just don't enjoy faster training that the carebears do. Unless you have trillions in the bank perhaps, but that's not everyone.
Tell me, give me one good reason why high sec players should enjoy the safest, fastest training compared to anyone else. Just one will do. |
Iain Cariaba
2305
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Posted - 2016.01.07 23:05:31 -
[25] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Tell me, give me one good reason why high sec players should enjoy the safest, fastest training compared to anyone else. Just one will do. If you lose the mindset that terrible things will happen if you lose expensive implants, you too can enjoy the slightly faster train times.
Here's a hint, no matter how many attribute implants you have plugged into your head, only two are being used at any given time. Spending a billion isk on a full set of +5s is a waste when you only need two to get the fastest training time.
Additionally, you could lose the mindset that the 3% increase in SP accumulation for using +5s over +4s actually matters.
Lastly, it really is about choice. Unlike clone upgrades, there is no penalty for not using attribute implants. You aquire SP at the same base rate as everyone else who doesn't use implants. The SP accumulation bonus you get for using attribute implants is not, nor has it ever been, mandatory outside of your own mind.
Remember that EvE is a game about patience. If you're too impatient to wait that extra day or two for that month long train, you're really going to hate it when you get to the skills that take almost two months for lvl 5.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio The OSS
1003
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Posted - 2016.01.08 08:10:58 -
[26] - Quote
It's not terrible, it's just stupid. So I don't do it. I abide by the "dont fly what would hurt to lose (repeatedly)" rule. At the rate pods die it's simple prudence on my part. But then, some of us are out shooting more than others....which goes back to my officer/deadspace fit frigate remark, really. Given the average pod loss this month is ~40,000 isk it would appear that the people who are losing them in large part agree with me - the risk is pointless and stupid.
I mean if you have the money to regularly risk very expensive pods then great, well done you, but most people do not and given that the effect these have is nil in combat it is a broken system. One not conducive to encouraging PvP at all opportunities. |
Iain Cariaba
2308
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Posted - 2016.01.08 09:39:55 -
[27] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:It's not terrible, it's just stupid. So I don't do it. I abide by the "dont fly what would hurt to lose (repeatedly)" rule. At the rate pods die it's simple prudence on my part. But then, some of us are out shooting more than others....which goes back to my officer/deadspace fit frigate remark, really. Given the average pod loss this month is ~40,000 isk it would appear that the people who are losing them in large part agree with me - the risk is pointless and stupid.
I mean if you have the money to regularly risk very expensive pods then great, well done you, but most people do not and given that the effect these have is nil in combat it is a broken system. One not conducive to encouraging PvP at all opportunities. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you can afford the loss, but whether or not you are willing to accept the loss if/when it happens.
Regardless of which side of the debate you're on, this is a stupidly redundant thread as CCP has already stated they intend to remove attribute implants. I'm not sure why ISD hasn't already locked it.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Sigras
Conglomo
1106
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Posted - 2016.01.08 10:05:47 -
[28] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Sigras wrote:The issue I have here is that learning implants do create opportunity cost within the game beyond just ISK.
There is a reason I dont fly with slave sets all the time even though I can afford it... Without these trade-offs there are far fewer reasons not to always sit in at least low-grade pirate implant sets. Dude, the whole game is full of opportunity costs. You cannot remove opportunity costs entirely. In fact, I'd argue it is those opportunity costs that make the game. You asses these costs then take an action. What the OP here is arguing over though is a trivial opportunity cost. It is like worrying what effect the change in price of pencils in Oregon will have on the price of toilet paper in Finland. There may very well be an effect, but WTF cares? Im sorry I just feel that a 20% boost to armor HP is a big effect...
Without the opportunity cost of training slower, that's what you're gonna get because low grade slaves are cheap easy to come by and (after this change) come with no drawbacks!
Then these same poor people are just going to start whining about how slave sets or snake sets are "mandatory and should be removed from the game because it's a choice in name only" when in reality it was their whining that took the choice out of the equation in the first place! |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2203
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Posted - 2016.01.08 10:46:13 -
[29] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:I mean if you have the money to regularly risk very expensive pods then great, well done you, but most people do not and given that the effect these have is nil in combat it is a broken system. One not conducive to encouraging PvP at all opportunities. You do not need to risk ridiculously expensive pods. +3 implants are more than sufficient for 90% of usage scenarios. You gain a significantly increased SP accumulation rate over no implants, but they are so cheap that the loss is recovered with 1 anomaly or 1 L4 mission (or some trading/mining/PI). The problem is not the price of the implants or risk of losing an expensive pod -- it is entirely the mindset of the players: People want to train at max speed at all times and when they realize how costly it can potentially be for them when that expectation collides with their other expectations (constant PVP in dangerous areas, for instance), they blame the implants for their risk aversion. However, not the implants are at fault, the players themselves are because they do not properly evaluate the risks versus the benefits of different implants. Personal anecdote: I have only usedd +4s in my first couple of months when I was situated in High sec. Ever since I moved out to Null sec/Low sec, I have not used +4s in my regular clones. I exclusively use +3s and I have not yet encountered any skill training time that was unbearably, excruciatingly long, let alone situations where I missed out massively on action. The only situations where I use my +4 clone is when I am on vacation and cannot play EVE at all (or for my station sitting alts who are training things and don't leave the station in the first place).
All in all, the implants are not the problem. It is players not being capable of thinking about and evaluating their actions, as well as the colliding, mutually exclusive expectations resulting from the previous.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
250
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Posted - 2016.01.08 10:56:49 -
[30] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:It would be great if CCP remove learning implants from the game.
Pvping and loosing stat implants (slot 6 and up) no problem as they directly effect pvp performance.
Having to weigh up the lost sp from jumping to a fresh clone without learning implants to have some fun puts me off alot, so i assume it puts others off.
Base learning skill stats with no implants would be cool
o7
You sir are atrocius in your ideas. And everyone advocating for Attribute Implants removal are idiots. Seriously....If you dont want to use them THEN DONT F-ING USE THEM. every single character i won uses them, to me they are cheap and over a very long time useful. idiots, trying to take our choices away because they dont know how to play. |
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