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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3926
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Posted - 2016.01.12 17:11:19 -
[31] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:My jag with one nano is around 2900m/s cold and close to 4k hot. Pretty good imo. So your Jag is as a fast as a Sabre. Cool.
Oh god.
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1319
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Posted - 2016.01.12 18:01:31 -
[32] - Quote
CCP feels they need to constantly add something to the game to keep people who have a short attention span subscribed. Maybe this is true. By doing this of course you're going to make some ships obsolete. Since they're at it why not make it expensive since that will sell more PLEX meaning CCP will make more $$$.
My question to CCP is where do we stop? Perhaps we need T4- T9 versions of every ship too?
Of course I'm being sarcastic. You can only make so many different types of ships before they either start obsoleting others or are exactly like one another. We could make AF do the exact same thing as the T3 destroyers but look different. The pixels on your screen would be the only difference but they would interact with the other pixels the same way. This would make people who want to fly something "different" happy. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
728
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Posted - 2016.01.12 21:35:51 -
[33] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:My jag with one nano is around 2900m/s cold and close to 4k hot. Pretty good imo. So your Jag is as a fast as a Sabre. Cool.
Not everything needs to go 5k/s. Speed creep is bad.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Jace Varus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2016.01.12 21:57:16 -
[34] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:
CCP could boost the mobility of the AF to make the frigate hull more nimble than a larger destroyer- but given the extreme focus on mobility blessed upon the T3 destroyers, this begins to make an AF look like a 'Heavy Ceptor' in application- a role I don't think is really compelling.
Wouldn't this be boring and repeated though? Combat ceptors wouldn't have purpose anymore.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
978
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Posted - 2016.01.12 22:19:28 -
[35] - Quote
I like the ideas that reduce sig radius and up the PG. Make it tanky and hard to hit. |
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
91
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Posted - 2016.01.12 23:33:43 -
[36] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:My jag with one nano is around 2900m/s cold and close to 4k hot. Pretty good imo. So your Jag is as a fast as a Sabre. Cool. Not everything needs to go 5k/s. Speed creep is bad. Speed creep is bad, but you can't fight one without becoming part of one. |
ValentinaDLM
Khushakor Clan Of Questionable Repute
840
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Posted - 2016.01.13 12:02:06 -
[37] - Quote
I think the real moral of this thread is we need to slow or stop power creep in general, I was very much hoping that the new command dessies would have their speeds more in line with their t1 counterparts, but not even close.
I am very much against this speed creep, but, if things were to be fair t1 dessies and AFs would get a mobility buff, but I am worried how that might effect the balance of the game and this is coming from a woman who uses t1 destroyers more than anything else. I get very frustrated when my Corax goes goes 1453 with a MWD and a Moa goes 1560 with an MWD, but keep in mind just how over powered small ships can become when they put out lots of damage and have high mobility.
The Svipul if anything should be seen as something of a cautionary tale, because, unlike the other t3ds the Svipul didn't give up projection for speed, it gets both at the same time, and over buffing the speed on AFs or t1 dessies would result in a similar situation. If the hull got a tracking bonus, and the sharpshooter was the optimal bonus Svipuls would still make excellent alpha ships with GTFO ability, but they wouldn't be nearly as strong as they are now.
If we were to vastly push on the speed of for example Retributions, then they could have similar issues, able to project damage combined with low sig and lots of manuverability, for a pretty low cost, further pushing the game into a small ship meta. The confessor is in a really good spot right now, because in order to really project damage it has to give up speed, close to levels of a t1 destroyer, but it maintains the ability to switch to prop mode and still have it's mobility advantage when necessary, assault frigates don't have modes, so we have to be very, cautious about how we approach them. |
Demica Diaz
SE-1
178
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Posted - 2016.01.13 21:31:59 -
[38] - Quote
Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1319
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Posted - 2016.01.14 05:07:49 -
[39] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time. How about just when you get podded your pilot is dead... No clone.. No skills. Pop... Character creation screen loads |
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
93
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Posted - 2016.01.14 05:56:06 -
[40] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time. Which is not even a setback. 4 days worth of training at max? For a ship that's that hard to take down unless we talk about lack of scouts and sense? |
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Demica Diaz
SE-1
180
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Posted - 2016.01.14 08:13:10 -
[41] - Quote
Leila Meurtrier wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time. Which is not even a setback. 4 days worth of training at max? For a ship that's that hard to take down unless we talk about lack of scouts and sense?
True, perhaps skill loss isnt "harsh" enough but this suggestion is mostly anti power creep. Giving assault frigates D-scan immunity... more speed... signature change and so on only increase problem that EVE and every single MMO suffers from. Power creep. We need to make ships viable by not adding more abilities. If not skill points then perhaps price. Make it cost more. Everytime we add power to ship we make other ships that specialized in that power, obsolete.
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
94
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Posted - 2016.01.14 09:12:20 -
[42] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:Leila Meurtrier wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time. Which is not even a setback. 4 days worth of training at max? For a ship that's that hard to take down unless we talk about lack of scouts and sense? True, perhaps skill loss isnt "harsh" enough but this suggestion is mostly anti power creep. Giving assault frigates D-scan immunity... more speed... signature change and so on only increase problem that EVE and every single MMO suffers from. Power creep. We need to make ships viable by not adding more abilities. If not skill points then perhaps price. Make it cost more. Everytime we add power to ship we make other ships that specialized in that power, obsolete. Again, cost won't change much because t3ds are excellent pvp ships that may actually rat effectively in the meantime. You may double the price and things won't change. Not to mention that you don't lose these on daily basis anyway. |
Hochopepa
POS Consultants Group LLC
33
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Posted - 2016.01.14 14:40:40 -
[43] - Quote
Make them frigate versions of hics? |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3932
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Posted - 2016.01.14 17:49:33 -
[44] - Quote
Hochopepa wrote:Make them frigate versions of hics? But they're already frigate version of HACs, so then what? Make HACs into HICs?
Oh god.
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
94
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Posted - 2016.01.14 19:01:45 -
[45] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Hochopepa wrote:Make them frigate versions of hics? But they're already frigate version of HACs, so then what? Make HACs into HICs? Except they are not. Look at speed difference between hacs and their t1 parents. Then do the same with frigates. |
Hochopepa
POS Consultants Group LLC
34
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Posted - 2016.01.14 19:20:42 -
[46] - Quote
each race has 2 AF's, make 1 a frigate version of a HAC and the other a frigate version of a HIC |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
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Posted - 2016.01.14 19:35:44 -
[47] - Quote
Leila Meurtrier wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Hochopepa wrote:Make them frigate versions of hics? But they're already frigate version of HACs, so then what? Make HACs into HICs? Except they are not. Look at speed difference between hacs and their t1 parents. Then do the same with frigates. That's really a lot of effort. To humour you, I checked Punisher vs Vengeance, compared with Omen vs Zealot. I didn't find anything remarkable.
Oh god.
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
94
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Posted - 2016.01.14 20:30:17 -
[48] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Leila Meurtrier wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Hochopepa wrote:Make them frigate versions of hics? But they're already frigate version of HACs, so then what? Make HACs into HICs? Except they are not. Look at speed difference between hacs and their t1 parents. Then do the same with frigates. That's really a lot of effort. To humour you, I checked Punisher vs Vengeance, compared with Omen vs Zealot. I didn't find anything remarkable. Then look at moa vs eagle, caracal vs cerberus, vagabond vs stabber. Speed reduction is very low. Then we have assault frigates which got their speed butchered with exception of probably Jaguar/Wolf. We talk about 20% reduction in most cases when switching from t1 to AF. That's a huge one, comparing with average 5% reduction of HACs over t1. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
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Posted - 2016.01.14 21:25:03 -
[49] - Quote
Well that's very interesting. Thank you for sharing your observation.
Oh god.
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
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Posted - 2016.01.14 21:27:28 -
[50] - Quote
Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing.
Oh god.
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Abby Silverwind
Demonic Retribution The Initiative.
9
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Posted - 2016.01.15 01:02:19 -
[51] - Quote
Juana Cavin-Guang wrote:Here's an idea, instead of giving assault frigs a "bandaid" to better fit into the svipul shaped peg in the meta with the intended fleet role of the ship class, we change up the ship class to fill a niche that won't be better fit and outclassed in almost every way by a tech 3 destroyer.
Rename the Assault Frigate ship class to Reconnaissance Frigate and give them all d-scan immunity. It would give the ship class something unique, and it should provide a neat little niche for the ship class to excel in. The mind games in FW will move to a whole new level, at the very least.
or just nurf T3D
:D
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
Your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
Drunk Posting
Best Posting
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
96
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Posted - 2016.01.15 05:04:38 -
[52] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing. Except that they've seen limited use even before t3ds rolling out. They have tight enough fittings to fail meeting of their own builds in CCPs vision as heavily tanked MWDing bull. Take for example, retribution, which simply can not fit reasonably focused pulses, MWD, scram and 400mm plate. Slow speed limiting it's kiting abilities and it's straight inferior to slicer in such regard. T3d weren't they only stone thrown at it, it was just the last one ...or not. Last one was punisher receiving "fit any type of turret for free" treatment as an early X-mass gift. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17102
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Posted - 2016.01.15 09:49:12 -
[53] - Quote
Leila Meurtrier wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing. Except that they've seen limited use even before t3ds rolling out. They have tight enough fittings to fail meeting of their own builds in CCPs vision as heavily tanked MWDing bull. Take for example, retribution, which simply can not fit reasonably focused pulses, MWD, scram and 400mm plate. Slow speed limiting it's kiting abilities and it's straight inferior to slicer in such regard. T3d weren't they only stone thrown at it, it was just the last one ...or not. Last one was punisher receiving "fit any type of turret for free" treatment as an early X-mass gift.
I actually took the time to look into this claim that AF use was low and found it was not true. AF were popular and in heavy use right up until a few weeks after T3D were added. In fact all frigate activity aside from the cov ops and logistics branches took a very noticeable hit in usage along with T1 destroyers. This is not just an AF problem, t3d have messed up the entire small ship balance.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Tung Yoggi
Incidents Diplomatiques
120
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Posted - 2016.01.15 11:53:28 -
[54] - Quote
Indeed, yet i believe the ones who suffer the most from T3Ds are AFs, because they kinda lost their "tank hard, hit hard" edge in the sub-cruiser meta to T3Ds.
As for what they need right now, I kind of like the idea of buffing their combat potential against larger targets, while tweaking the T3D since it is true that it is not only an AF issue.
Ideally, i would like to see T3D lean towards slightly less damage and more application (frig killers), and AF going for more mitigation against higher class ships (cruisers killers / heavy tacklers), po
The other option i see would be to have an harpy-like AF for every race (projection bonus), which could therefore be used in fleets. However, that might be more problematic, and won't really change their usefulness in smaller gangs. |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
362
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Posted - 2016.01.15 12:33:57 -
[55] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing.
AFs were one of the first ship classes to get buffed during the whole tiericide thing. They got a 4th bonus which they'd been missing since they were introduced, and they got an additional slot and a smidge of fitting. Their mwd sig bonus was a bandaid, on the test server they got an AB bonus which was generally seen as overpowered so they removed it and slapped the mwd bonus on.
Since that time every other ship class got some pretty drastic changes. Destroyers lost their rof nerf, new destroyers were introduced, most ships got more fittings, weapons have been buffed, etc etc etc
A lot of tech 1 frigates got tougher thanks to extra fittings, agility and speed buffs.....things the AFs missed out on. That's the thing AFs had going for them, the tank. Now we've got tech 1 frigates that are faster, more agile, much cheaper........
And don't get me started on how command destroyers make them even more obsolete. Command destroyers are faster, have a better tank, generally more dps, fit into the same accelerations gates........why even bother with an AF?
That's the thing everyone is getting at. They have been surpassed by other ship classes. They have no role.
At a bare minimum they need their mass reduced to sane levels. Destroyer hulls shouldn't be more agile/faster than a frigate. Hell, even if they do get fixed HACs are going to need some loving, since they're kind of in the same boat since HICs got buffed.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
362
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Posted - 2016.01.15 12:43:05 -
[56] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Leila Meurtrier wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing. Except that they've seen limited use even before t3ds rolling out. They have tight enough fittings to fail meeting of their own builds in CCPs vision as heavily tanked MWDing bull. Take for example, retribution, which simply can not fit reasonably focused pulses, MWD, scram and 400mm plate. Slow speed limiting it's kiting abilities and it's straight inferior to slicer in such regard. T3d weren't they only stone thrown at it, it was just the last one ...or not. Last one was punisher receiving "fit any type of turret for free" treatment as an early X-mass gift. I actually took the time to look into this claim that AF use was low and found it was not true. AF were popular and in heavy use right up until a few weeks after T3D were added. In fact all frigate activity aside from the cov ops and logistics branches took a very noticeable hit in usage along with T1 destroyers. This is not just an AF problem, t3d have messed up the entire small ship balance.
Their usage from what I saw dropped off after 'tier 1' destroyers got buffed, and the 'tier 2' destroyers came around. Everything else was just more nails in the coffin. In this area they're about as rare as an EAF.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17102
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Posted - 2016.01.15 18:04:29 -
[57] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote: Their usage from what I saw dropped off after 'tier 1' destroyers got buffed, and the 'tier 2' destroyers came around. Everything else was just more nails in the coffin. In this area they're about as rare as an EAF.
T1 destroyers are fairly well balanced. Flown well they can be very nice but at the same time AF were not at a huge disadvantage and could fight back if flown well. T3D just **** pillage and burn all in their path with next to no hope of anything under or in their class winning a fight.
T1 destroyers are in an even worse position than AF are as they are utterly outclasses in every area aside from the catalysts use as a suicide ganker. Its the reason why I say nerf T3Ds rather than buff AF because T3D have invalidated a whole lot more than just the 8 AF which are still good ships in a scrap.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
358
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Posted - 2016.01.23 08:10:27 -
[58] - Quote
At the risk of agreeing with a PL dude.........Baltec is spot on.
On their own the T1 Destroyers were pretty well balanced and fell fairly well in line with T1 frigs and AF's. The new destroyers didn't create new roles so much as obsolete any competition for the current role.
I don't think there should be a T2 variant of a ship that is focused on tank/damage. So basically no AF's or HACs . T2's should be highly specialized support ships. They should offer large force multipliers but be restricted to being very very gimped in effective DPS. They should not be the main ship of the line.
The T1 version of a hull should be the 'basic DPS' variant with bonuses for damage/range/speed. The T2 variants are specialized versions that get role-specific bonuses and resist/tank buffs for survivability but at the cost of being viable as a ship of the line. That way the core of any fleet would be basic T1 ships. T2's would only be fielded as support to those T1's and would represent a small percentage of a given fleet rather than the majority or even entirety of it as is common in the current meta.
Another problem is the entire concept of ships so versatile that they obsolete half the line up of ships in the game (T3's in general). New ships should create new roles within a fleet- not simply do all of the existing ones so well there is no need to fly anything else.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
731
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Posted - 2016.01.23 19:53:05 -
[59] - Quote
Tung Yoggi wrote:Indeed, yet i believe the ones who suffer the most from T3Ds are AFs, because they kinda lost their "tank hard, hit hard" edge in the sub-cruiser meta to T3Ds.
As for what they need right now, I kind of like the idea of buffing their combat potential against larger targets, while tweaking the T3D since it is true that it is not only an AF issue.
Ideally, i would like to see T3D lean towards slightly less damage and more application (frig killers), and AF going for more mitigation against higher class ships (cruisers killers / heavy tacklers).
The other option i see would be to have an harpy-like AF for every race (projection bonus), which could therefore be used in fleets. However, that might be more problematic, and won't really change their usefulness in smaller gangs.
I think there is some truth to this, and your idea of nerfing the T3D damage output is warranted (400 dps svipuls, why fly stabber?) since it competes with cruisers. You don't need 430dps out of something faster and just as tanky as a cruiser to kill frigs. Although the main culprit is the svipul. The hecates dps comes at a cost (its slow, and vulnerable to neuts). The svipul has no "weakness" per say. Just overwhelm it with dps, neuts and webs.
However, i don't think AF "need" mitigation against larger ships. I've fought against and used AF against larger ships. Large ships only have an issue when they don't fit for application.
Best example: All tank drake with only a scram. Of course you can't hit/damage an AF, you aren't fit for the job. Drop some extenders and slap on a couple webs and a missile computer and you're golden at killing any frig/T3D.
What i'm getting at is, there is no reason to nerf large ships to fix a smaller class of ship. AF's were already viable against larger ships. Yea if you fought someone who wanted to genocide frigs with a drake/typhoon, it would happen. Thats not the AF's fault, its the fact the person flying the big ship sacrificed tank, for application. In the case of a max tank drake, or any turret BS, an AF would have a field day tanking it.
I also don't believe in homogenizing AF. Harpies have range because they're Caldari, which the trend in their hybrid ships is they favor range. The harpy sacrificed a trait for double optimal bonus, that is the racial flavor. We don't need dual optimal bonused jaguars, or 100% optimal retributions. There can still be variety in each race, and still have different roles for each ship. Homogenizing 4 AF to be basically the same, but with different weapons is boring.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service Ushra'Khan
380
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Posted - 2016.01.24 17:54:18 -
[60] - Quote
Give Assault Frigates a 50% reduction bonus to enemy e-war effects (except warp disruptors/scramblers). |
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