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Juana Cavin-Guang
Zelotic Economics Karezza
Lost Cause Syndicate
6
   |
Posted - 2016.01.07 01:59:56 -
[1] - Quote
Here's an idea, instead of giving assault frigs a "bandaid" to better fit into the svipul shaped peg in the meta with the intended fleet role of the ship class, we change up the ship class to fill a niche that won't be better fit and outclassed in almost every way by a tech 3 destroyer.
Rename the Assault Frigate ship class to Reconnaissance Frigate and give them all d-scan immunity.
It would give the ship class something unique, and it should provide a neat little niche for the ship class to excel in.
The mind games in FW will move to a whole new level, at the very least. |
Iyokus Patrouette
Kenshin.
DARKNESS.
619
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 02:51:59 -
[2] - Quote
Juana Cavin-Guang wrote:
The mind games in FW will move to a whole new level, at the very least.
not really because a T3D will still beat an assault frig.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
|
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3925
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 05:48:38 -
[3] - Quote
I wanna give them heavy neuts so they can threaten larger ships.
Oh god.
|
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
983
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 08:48:33 -
[4] - Quote
\o/ buff everything else.... dont fix the problem... powercreeps a lie.... double the damage on all other frig size ships and give other destroyers 10x the ehp... that'll fix the problem... right? .... right??
(for those who dont understand, that was sarcasm...)
No Worries
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2665
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 09:51:39 -
[5] - Quote
If I could have a buff to assault frigates of my choice it would be skill dependent resistance to energy neutralizers.
Mebbe a tiny boost to their base speed too? I mean if we're talking about the brass ring here and stuff.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
13464
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 10:38:25 -
[6] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:I wanna give them heavy neuts so they can threaten larger ships.
this made me giggle 
i think an ab bonus wouldn't go amiss.
not as sever as the sansa line obviously but enough to allow them to run down the slow-medium slow cruisers
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
|
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
771
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 12:25:28 -
[7] - Quote
At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot, I still have to wonder what the hell T3D's were meant for if not to completely obsolete every AF in the game. Did CCP really just say, "**** it," and just decide to toss them in for ***** and giggles, or was there some dev blog explaining their actual intended role that I missed? It's all I tend to hear now is that AF's and many other frigs are dead and T3D's killed them, especially in FW Low.
At the same time, I also have to wonder why simply bringing some of your own T3D's along with to counter there own brethren doesn't work just as well. I can't imagine I'm not the first to suggest that, can I? Maybe it's just me; I have very little PvP from long ago, but nothing recent, so that's very possible.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
|
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
72
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 13:04:40 -
[8] - Quote
There are two things which should be buffed for Assault Frigates. And it would be adequate even without t3ds being here.
1)Increase the base speeds to either match t1 counterparts or get them in -5/+5 range.
2)Give them about 15 extra CPU and 5 PWG in general.
That way they'll become the same thing to t1 frigs as HAC to t1 cruiser.
Why speed buffs? Because HACs don't have speed penalties like AFs do.
Why fitting buffs? Because, you know, these ships are MEANT to carry MORE plates/shield extenders AND use mwd to their heart's contest. In the current state, it's not a thing.
You barely may fit t2 pulses with damage mods, damage control and MWD on Retribution. You may need overclocking rig just for that. You don't have powergrid for 400mm plate (You probably should), you'll have problem with fitting long point and you can't even touch any weapon system rig.
Then, we may actually consider serious comparison of t3ds and assault frigates. Although, I think they really always meant to have bonus strength and range/overheat damage reduction for warp scramblers, given the "Heavy second tackle" role CCP were mumbling about. |
Garrett Osinov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 17:17:33 -
[9] - Quote
Svipul fitted 100 mils, Af 35-40 mils. Obviously 100 mils ship will be better then 35-40 mils ship. |
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
76
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 17:27:51 -
[10] - Quote
Garrett Osinov wrote:Svipul fitted 100 mils, Af 35-40 mils. Obviously 100 mils ship will be better then 35-40 mils ship.
Taking price into account in universe being ruled by 8-12 y.o. veterans is just plain silly. Not to mention that 100 mil is a bull. Taking similar grade of blinging, we talk about just 20-25 mil difference. |
Arla Sarain
726
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 18:19:07 -
[11] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:I wanna give them heavy neuts so they can threaten larger ships.
This and an agility buff would be sweet. |
Ong
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
129
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 19:30:45 -
[12] - Quote
T3D's might be the straw that broke the camels back, but AF's have been obsolete since the t1/faction frigate buffs. There was absolutely no reason to fly them already.
But yeah w/e hurf derf T3D's took ma job!! |
Ong
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
129
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 19:37:55 -
[13] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:I wanna give them heavy neuts so they can threaten larger ships.
Because that wouldn't be power creep at all, there is already very little reasons to fly larger ships as it is!!
|
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
360
|
Posted - 2016.01.07 23:04:51 -
[14] - Quote
Give them a +200% bonus to the effectiveness of;
- TCs and TEs (and the missile ones),
- SeBos and SigAmps,
- ECCM and Backup Sensors,
- Cap Batteries.
This means AFs can be fit to be mega resistant to ewar, but have little extra bite unless they specifcally fit for it. This is a new niche that doesn't exist in the game yet. |
Valkin Mordirc
1801
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 00:56:19 -
[15] - Quote
Garrett Osinov wrote:Svipul fitted 100 mils, Af 35-40 mils. Obviously 100 mils ship will be better then 35-40 mils ship.
I'll just take out my officer fit Ibis and go wreck if price is obviously a balance factor
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Kamahl Daikun
Back To Basics.
Tactical Supremacy
65
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 03:58:25 -
[16] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Garrett Osinov wrote:Svipul fitted 100 mils, Af 35-40 mils. Obviously 100 mils ship will be better then 35-40 mils ship. I'll just take out my officer fit Ibis and go wreck if price is obviously a balance factor
I'm betting isk that my Deadspace Luxury Yacht will destroy your Ibis. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3926
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 05:27:15 -
[17] - Quote
Ong wrote:Riot Girl wrote:I wanna give them heavy neuts so they can threaten larger ships. Because that wouldn't be power creep at all, there is already very little reasons to fly larger ships as it is!!
Because there's totally a reason to fly AFs, but yeah, it's not really a legit suggestion. They need something though, preferably something that can be carried up to HACs too.
Oh god.
|
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2680
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 08:00:10 -
[18] - Quote
I don't know about them being completely obsolete so much as having much more niche applications than they used to.
For my high sex nogoodery I still use the Ishkur as my go-to ship due to it having two separate weapons platforms that can work well together or independently.
It doesn't output damage like a T3D, certainly, nor is it as fast, but in the case where I'm having a nice close slow dance with a much larger vessel it's very handy to have the drones that I can divert in case a white knight arrives intent on saving the princess. I've sent a handful of catalysts and coercers scurrying off in flames this way in the past, so the versatility aspect has much appeal to me.
Would I put my trusty AF up against a T3D with reasonable expectation of victory? Of course not. Barring the pilot being far worse at EVE than me, I'm gonna lose. They are possessed of a different form of versatility, and have strengths of their own that are quite potent.
I do think the AF does need a bit of love in comparison, because as folks have stated it's now competing with a class of ship that does pretty much everything it used to do but only better.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Hochopepa
POS Consultants Group LLC
32
|
Posted - 2016.01.08 19:36:24 -
[19] - Quote
Juana Cavin-Guang wrote:Here's an idea, instead of giving assault frigs a "bandaid" to better fit into the svipul shaped peg in the meta with the intended fleet role of the ship class, we change up the ship class to fill a niche that won't be better fit and outclassed in almost every way by a tech 3 destroyer.
Rename the Assault Frigate ship class to Reconnaissance Frigate and give them all d-scan immunity.
It would give the ship class something unique, and it should provide a neat little niche for the ship class to excel in.
The mind games in FW will move to a whole new level, at the very least.
These are called covert ops frigates.
|
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated
Executive Outcomes
350
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 02:04:45 -
[20] - Quote
It's the same problem with their larger cousins, but in reverse.
The HACs are so much better than the next larger class of ships- the battlecruiser- that BC fleets have become rare animals. This was called Ishtars Online for awhile, not Oracles Online.
AFs suffer from being inferior to the next larger class of ships, Destroyers. Especially now with T3 and Command variants in the meta.
CCP could boost the mobility of the AF to make the frigate hull more nimble than a larger destroyer- but given the extreme focus on mobility blessed upon the T3 destroyers, this begins to make an AF look like a 'Heavy Ceptor' in application- a role I don't think is really compelling.
I think the immunity to D-Scan idea has merit. The AF could become like a 'combat' recon, reduced cloak targeting penalty, D-Scan immune, but unable to warp cloaked.
Or just troll everyone and make Bastion Module AF's. |
ValentinaDLM
Khushakor Clan
Of Questionable Repute
838
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 03:14:34 -
[21] - Quote
I think the jag needs a major buff in it having an optimal bonus suggesting artillery yet, being unable to meaningfully fullfill that role at all and being too slow to be heavy tackle. The retribution could use a very small like +5pg bonus so that it can still fit a plate with pulse lasers and an MWD without too many fitting mods and a proper glass cannon beam fit.
Outside of those I feel that the lineup really isn't that bad. Harpies are bordering on OP, Hawks are super strong in small gangs, vengeances too, the wolf is pretty decent in dps for a minmatar ship and fits a solid tank, or can kite okay for a ship so slow. The enyo is very strong as a glass cannon and the ishkur has solid versatility.
We have had lots of sweeping changes to the meta when I think only minor changes should be done or we will just see power creep in response to the new ships. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
342
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 09:15:05 -
[22] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot, I still have to wonder what the hell T3D's were meant for if not to completely obsolete every AF in the game. Did CCP really just say, "**** it," and just decide to toss them in for ***** and giggles, or was there some dev blog explaining their actual intended role that I missed? It's all I tend to hear now is that AF's and many other frigs are dead and T3D's killed them, especially in FW Low.
At the same time, I also have to wonder why simply bringing some of your own T3D's along with to counter there own brethren doesn't work just as well. I can't imagine I'm not the first to suggest that, can I? Maybe it's just me; I have very little PvP from long ago, but nothing recent, so that's very possible.
You make a relevent observation that T3D's appear to be meant to obsolete (in a rock-paper-scissors sense) the Assault Frigate Class. Tech 3 Cruisers largely (though not absolutely) obsolete HAC's and Recons while adding superior probing abilities. People still use HAC's because they are cheaper and they are still effective because they still have potent bonuses. Assault Frigates were meant to counter the cruiser meta at their initial release and later the BC meta when they got their sig bonus reduction.
With the T3D's they are fairly expensive compared to their t1 counterparts and ought to be looked at in that regard. Assault Frigates are fairly slow and cumbersome - but we can't keep buffing everything otherwise we run into the same issue elsewhere.
What else can be done to change/shift the meta? Iterate on under used mechanics. Ex:
Drugs - Assault Frigate Role Bonus - 25% reduction in drug penalty severity and 25% increase to drug beneficial effect
Addition: Assault Frigates get 3m3 drug bay that is non-scannable by high sec police forces.
Other ideas:
Reduce AF Base Signature so that it is VERY tiny - like 20 meters or less. Making them harder to lock (or insta-lock) as well as harder to track - and reduce further incoming missile damage from the rapid light class of launchers and nearly immune to anything larger.
Ideally pirate ships get the drug bay imo and AF's get the signature reduction - yes I know it steps on the interceptors a bit but interceptors get to fly through bubbles and generally be much faster plus tackle specialty. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
342
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 09:15:56 -
[23] - Quote
That said most cruisers in a 1v1 or even 1v2 situaltion will utterly step all over a t3d if you have a decent fit and good skills. |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
989
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 09:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:That said most cruisers in a 1v1 or even 1v2 situaltion will utterly step all over a t3d if you have a decent fit and good skills.
If you specifically fit the cruiser to fight TD3's yeah... ish... some just dont have a chance whatever you do, and most of the time the destroyer can just bug out... and if you fit to foght the T3D's you gimp yourself to everything else...
No Worries
|
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
779
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 12:17:56 -
[25] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:Justin Cody wrote:That said most cruisers in a 1v1 or even 1v2 situaltion will utterly step all over a t3d if you have a decent fit and good skills. If you specifically fit the cruiser to fight TD3's yeah... ish... some just dont have a chance whatever you do, and most of the time the destroyer can just bug out... and if you fit to foght the T3D's you gimp yourself to everything else...
Sounds awfully familiar actually...remember when the Dramial was OP'd and CCP had to lasso that one in? People use to state that even a cruiser could be easily bested by a Dram if flown right, and that dessies and frigs were having an even harder time with it. I remember people in T1 cruisers would say to watch for Dramiels, they are a pain to deal with.
Funny thing is when I ask someone who had flown the Dram for a long time before the nerf how it was afterwards, they said, "Well, it's not as good as it was and harder to get a strong fit squeezed in and some fits don't work like they use to, but it's still strong. It just doesn't feel like cheating anymore is all, which is nice."
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
|
Hochopepa
POS Consultants Group LLC
32
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 19:05:13 -
[26] - Quote
Youtube is littered with videos of T3Ds curb-stomping cruisers, frigate and really anything under BC solo. In a small gang (2-3), BC and BS don't stand a chance either. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
725
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:05:29 -
[27] - Quote
Hochopepa wrote:Youtube is littered with videos of T3Ds curb-stomping cruisers, frigate and really anything under BC solo. In a small gang (2-3), BC and BS don't stand a chance either.
I regularly stomp t3ds and even frig gangs in my BC's. But thats because i fit for max application against smaller ships. Because you know... i might only run into 1 BS during a roam, but run across 30 frigs/t3ds. So im willing to gimp just to put t3ds and command dessies in their place when they try to pounce my drake.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
|
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
725
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 22:11:38 -
[28] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote:I think the jag needs a major buff in it having an optimal bonus suggesting artillery yet, being unable to meaningfully fullfill that role at all and being too slow to be heavy tackle. The retribution could use a very small like +5pg bonus so that it can still fit a plate with pulse lasers and an MWD without too many fitting mods and a proper glass cannon beam fit.
Outside of those I feel that the lineup really isn't that bad. Harpies are bordering on OP, Hawks are super strong in small gangs, vengeances too, the wolf is pretty decent in dps for a minmatar ship and fits a solid tank, or can kite okay for a ship so slow. The enyo is very strong as a glass cannon and the ishkur has solid versatility.
We have had lots of sweeping changes to the meta when I think only minor changes should be done or we will just see power creep in response to the new ships.
Yay! Someone who has ideas to fix AF without resorting to stupid gimmicks.
This. This is all that is needed to fix AF.
Up their grids so they can actually be heavy tackle, or actually do the role theyre intended to do. Also cap buffs for most of them. Since running a point and mwd seems like an impossible task half the time.
Some AF need some tweaking like the jag. Just roll both damage bonuses into 1 trait and give it a shield boost bonus. Same as the wolf, but maybe give it another falloff bonus or sig bonus. I will say the jag amd wolf are pretty fast. My jag with one nano is around 2900m/s cold and close to 4k hot. Pretty good imo.
Remove hawk's shield boost bonus and give it an application bonus. Up its grid so i can fit LML and give a moderate buff to shield HP. This makes it into a frigate sized corax.
Give ishkur full drone bay from the get go, give it an armor rep bonus.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head... im actually roaming in AF now, and they still shame most frigs and t2 dessies.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
|
Hochopepa
POS Consultants Group LLC
32
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 15:07:34 -
[29] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Hochopepa wrote:Youtube is littered with videos of T3Ds curb-stomping cruisers, frigate and really anything under BC solo. In a small gang (2-3), BC and BS don't stand a chance either. I regularly stomp t3ds and even frig gangs in my BC's. But thats because i fit for max application against smaller ships. Because you know... i might only run into 1 BS during a roam, but run across 30 frigs/t3ds. So im willing to gimp just to put t3ds and command dessies in their place when they try to pounce my drake.
Certainly, when you're specially fit to deal with them, then you can do just that. Not everyone flies around specially fit to deal with them though. And that, really, proves the point. If you have to do special fits just do deal with a specific ship class, it may be time to do a balance pass.
|
ValentinaDLM
Khushakor Clan
Of Questionable Repute
839
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 16:25:44 -
[30] - Quote
Hochopepa wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Hochopepa wrote:Youtube is littered with videos of T3Ds curb-stomping cruisers, frigate and really anything under BC solo. In a small gang (2-3), BC and BS don't stand a chance either. I regularly stomp t3ds and even frig gangs in my BC's. But thats because i fit for max application against smaller ships. Because you know... i might only run into 1 BS during a roam, but run across 30 frigs/t3ds. So im willing to gimp just to put t3ds and command dessies in their place when they try to pounce my drake. Certainly, when you're specially fit to deal with them, then you can do just that. Not everyone flies around specially fit to deal with them though. And that, really, proves the point. If you have to do special fits just do deal with a specific ship class, it may be time to do a balance pass.
Eve is a very complex version of rock, paper scissors with piloting skill/FC skill thrown in; it isn't meant that ships are a strictly meant to destroy all ships smaller than them with any fit. Just like 1400mm pests aren't th best fit to use against ahacs, HML drakes aren't the best to use against t3ds, if you didn't have to fit your ship towards fighting down then that would absolutely be OP. T3Ds probably ought to get a minor look at, but mostly from a mobility aspect as they are in quite a few cases faster than frigates. I personally think just taking off a few ms from t3ds and probably adding a few to t1 Dessies would do a fair bit to making things more competitive, but we absolutely shouldn't make them easier to hit by larger guns than they are now. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3926
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 17:11:19 -
[31] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:My jag with one nano is around 2900m/s cold and close to 4k hot. Pretty good imo.
So your Jag is as a fast as a Sabre. Cool.
Oh god.
|
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
1319
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 18:01:31 -
[32] - Quote
CCP feels they need to constantly add something to the game to keep people who have a short attention span subscribed. Maybe this is true. By doing this of course you're going to make some ships obsolete. Since they're at it why not make it expensive since that will sell more PLEX meaning CCP will make more $$$.
My question to CCP is where do we stop? Perhaps we need T4- T9 versions of every ship too?
Of course I'm being sarcastic. You can only make so many different types of ships before they either start obsoleting others or are exactly like one another. We could make AF do the exact same thing as the T3 destroyers but look different. The pixels on your screen would be the only difference but they would interact with the other pixels the same way. This would make people who want to fly something "different" happy. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
728
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 21:35:51 -
[33] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:My jag with one nano is around 2900m/s cold and close to 4k hot. Pretty good imo. So your Jag is as a fast as a Sabre. Cool.
Not everything needs to go 5k/s. Speed creep is bad.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
|
Jace Varus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 21:57:16 -
[34] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:
CCP could boost the mobility of the AF to make the frigate hull more nimble than a larger destroyer- but given the extreme focus on mobility blessed upon the T3 destroyers, this begins to make an AF look like a 'Heavy Ceptor' in application- a role I don't think is really compelling.
Wouldn't this be boring and repeated though? Combat ceptors wouldn't have purpose anymore.
|
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
978
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 22:19:28 -
[35] - Quote
I like the ideas that reduce sig radius and up the PG. Make it tanky and hard to hit. |
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
91
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 23:33:43 -
[36] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:My jag with one nano is around 2900m/s cold and close to 4k hot. Pretty good imo. So your Jag is as a fast as a Sabre. Cool. Not everything needs to go 5k/s. Speed creep is bad.
Speed creep is bad, but you can't fight one without becoming part of one. |
ValentinaDLM
Khushakor Clan
Of Questionable Repute
840
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 12:02:06 -
[37] - Quote
I think the real moral of this thread is we need to slow or stop power creep in general, I was very much hoping that the new command dessies would have their speeds more in line with their t1 counterparts, but not even close.
I am very much against this speed creep, but, if things were to be fair t1 dessies and AFs would get a mobility buff, but I am worried how that might effect the balance of the game and this is coming from a woman who uses t1 destroyers more than anything else. I get very frustrated when my Corax goes goes 1453 with a MWD and a Moa goes 1560 with an MWD, but keep in mind just how over powered small ships can become when they put out lots of damage and have high mobility.
The Svipul if anything should be seen as something of a cautionary tale, because, unlike the other t3ds the Svipul didn't give up projection for speed, it gets both at the same time, and over buffing the speed on AFs or t1 dessies would result in a similar situation. If the hull got a tracking bonus, and the sharpshooter was the optimal bonus Svipuls would still make excellent alpha ships with GTFO ability, but they wouldn't be nearly as strong as they are now.
If we were to vastly push on the speed of for example Retributions, then they could have similar issues, able to project damage combined with low sig and lots of manuverability, for a pretty low cost, further pushing the game into a small ship meta. The confessor is in a really good spot right now, because in order to really project damage it has to give up speed, close to levels of a t1 destroyer, but it maintains the ability to switch to prop mode and still have it's mobility advantage when necessary, assault frigates don't have modes, so we have to be very, cautious about how we approach them. |
Demica Diaz
SE-1
178
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 21:31:59 -
[38] - Quote
Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time.  |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
1319
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 05:07:49 -
[39] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time.
How about just when you get podded your pilot is dead... No clone.. No skills.
Pop... Character creation screen loads  |
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
93
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 05:56:06 -
[40] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time.
Which is not even a setback. 4 days worth of training at max? For a ship that's that hard to take down unless we talk about lack of scouts and sense? |
Demica Diaz
SE-1
180
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 08:13:10 -
[41] - Quote
Leila Meurtrier wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time. Which is not even a setback. 4 days worth of training at max? For a ship that's that hard to take down unless we talk about lack of scouts and sense?
True, perhaps skill loss isnt "harsh" enough but this suggestion is mostly anti power creep. Giving assault frigates D-scan immunity... more speed... signature change and so on only increase problem that EVE and every single MMO suffers from. Power creep. We need to make ships viable by not adding more abilities. If not skill points then perhaps price. Make it cost more. Everytime we add power to ship we make other ships that specialized in that power, obsolete.
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
94
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 09:12:20 -
[42] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:Leila Meurtrier wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:Give T3Ds skill loss like T3 Strategic cruisers have. Want to fly something powerful? Be ready to lose training time. Which is not even a setback. 4 days worth of training at max? For a ship that's that hard to take down unless we talk about lack of scouts and sense? True, perhaps skill loss isnt "harsh" enough but this suggestion is mostly anti power creep. Giving assault frigates D-scan immunity... more speed... signature change and so on only increase problem that EVE and every single MMO suffers from. Power creep. We need to make ships viable by not adding more abilities. If not skill points then perhaps price. Make it cost more. Everytime we add power to ship we make other ships that specialized in that power, obsolete.
Again, cost won't change much because t3ds are excellent pvp ships that may actually rat effectively in the meantime. You may double the price and things won't change. Not to mention that you don't lose these on daily basis anyway. |
Hochopepa
POS Consultants Group LLC
33
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 14:40:40 -
[43] - Quote
Make them frigate versions of hics? |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3932
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 17:49:33 -
[44] - Quote
Hochopepa wrote:Make them frigate versions of hics?
But they're already frigate version of HACs, so then what? Make HACs into HICs?
Oh god.
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
94
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 19:01:45 -
[45] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Hochopepa wrote:Make them frigate versions of hics? But they're already frigate version of HACs, so then what? Make HACs into HICs?
Except they are not. Look at speed difference between hacs and their t1 parents. Then do the same with frigates. |
Hochopepa
POS Consultants Group LLC
34
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 19:20:42 -
[46] - Quote
each race has 2 AF's, make 1 a frigate version of a HAC and the other a frigate version of a HIC |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 19:35:44 -
[47] - Quote
Leila Meurtrier wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Hochopepa wrote:Make them frigate versions of hics? But they're already frigate version of HACs, so then what? Make HACs into HICs? Except they are not. Look at speed difference between hacs and their t1 parents. Then do the same with frigates.
That's really a lot of effort. To humour you, I checked Punisher vs Vengeance, compared with Omen vs Zealot.
I didn't find anything remarkable.
Oh god.
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
94
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 20:30:17 -
[48] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Leila Meurtrier wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Hochopepa wrote:Make them frigate versions of hics? But they're already frigate version of HACs, so then what? Make HACs into HICs? Except they are not. Look at speed difference between hacs and their t1 parents. Then do the same with frigates. That's really a lot of effort. To humour you, I checked Punisher vs Vengeance, compared with Omen vs Zealot. I didn't find anything remarkable.
Then look at moa vs eagle, caracal vs cerberus, vagabond vs stabber. Speed reduction is very low.
Then we have assault frigates which got their speed butchered with exception of probably Jaguar/Wolf. We talk about 20% reduction in most cases when switching from t1 to AF. That's a huge one, comparing with average 5% reduction of HACs over t1. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 21:25:03 -
[49] - Quote
Well that's very interesting. Thank you for sharing your observation.
Oh god.
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
|
Posted - 2016.01.14 21:27:28 -
[50] - Quote
Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing.
Oh god.
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Abby Silverwind
Demonic Retribution
The Initiative.
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 01:02:19 -
[51] - Quote
Juana Cavin-Guang wrote:Here's an idea, instead of giving assault frigs a "bandaid" to better fit into the svipul shaped peg in the meta with the intended fleet role of the ship class, we change up the ship class to fill a niche that won't be better fit and outclassed in almost every way by a tech 3 destroyer.
Rename the Assault Frigate ship class to Reconnaissance Frigate and give them all d-scan immunity.
It would give the ship class something unique, and it should provide a neat little niche for the ship class to excel in.
The mind games in FW will move to a whole new level, at the very least.
or just nurf T3D
:D
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
Your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
Drunk Posting
Best Posting
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
96
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 05:04:38 -
[52] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing.
Except that they've seen limited use even before t3ds rolling out. They have tight enough fittings to fail meeting of their own builds in CCPs vision as heavily tanked MWDing bull. Take for example, retribution, which simply can not fit reasonably focused pulses, MWD, scram and 400mm plate. Slow speed limiting it's kiting abilities and it's straight inferior to slicer in such regard. T3d weren't they only stone thrown at it, it was just the last one
...or not. Last one was punisher receiving "fit any type of turret for free" treatment as an early X-mass gift. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Legion
17102
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 09:49:12 -
[53] - Quote
Leila Meurtrier wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing. Except that they've seen limited use even before t3ds rolling out. They have tight enough fittings to fail meeting of their own builds in CCPs vision as heavily tanked MWDing bull. Take for example, retribution, which simply can not fit reasonably focused pulses, MWD, scram and 400mm plate. Slow speed limiting it's kiting abilities and it's straight inferior to slicer in such regard. T3d weren't they only stone thrown at it, it was just the last one ...or not. Last one was punisher receiving "fit any type of turret for free" treatment as an early X-mass gift.
I actually took the time to look into this claim that AF use was low and found it was not true. AF were popular and in heavy use right up until a few weeks after T3D were added. In fact all frigate activity aside from the cov ops and logistics branches took a very noticeable hit in usage along with T1 destroyers. This is not just an AF problem, t3d have messed up the entire small ship balance.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Tung Yoggi
Incidents Diplomatiques
120
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 11:53:28 -
[54] - Quote
Indeed, yet i believe the ones who suffer the most from T3Ds are AFs, because they kinda lost their "tank hard, hit hard" edge in the sub-cruiser meta to T3Ds.
As for what they need right now, I kind of like the idea of buffing their combat potential against larger targets, while tweaking the T3D since it is true that it is not only an AF issue.
Ideally, i would like to see T3D lean towards slightly less damage and more application (frig killers), and AF going for more mitigation against higher class ships (cruisers killers / heavy tacklers), po
The other option i see would be to have an harpy-like AF for every race (projection bonus), which could therefore be used in fleets. However, that might be more problematic, and won't really change their usefulness in smaller gangs. |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
362
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 12:33:57 -
[55] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing.
AFs were one of the first ship classes to get buffed during the whole tiericide thing. They got a 4th bonus which they'd been missing since they were introduced, and they got an additional slot and a smidge of fitting. Their mwd sig bonus was a bandaid, on the test server they got an AB bonus which was generally seen as overpowered so they removed it and slapped the mwd bonus on.
Since that time every other ship class got some pretty drastic changes. Destroyers lost their rof nerf, new destroyers were introduced, most ships got more fittings, weapons have been buffed, etc etc etc
A lot of tech 1 frigates got tougher thanks to extra fittings, agility and speed buffs.....things the AFs missed out on. That's the thing AFs had going for them, the tank. Now we've got tech 1 frigates that are faster, more agile, much cheaper........
And don't get me started on how command destroyers make them even more obsolete. Command destroyers are faster, have a better tank, generally more dps, fit into the same accelerations gates........why even bother with an AF?
That's the thing everyone is getting at. They have been surpassed by other ship classes. They have no role.
At a bare minimum they need their mass reduced to sane levels. Destroyer hulls shouldn't be more agile/faster than a frigate. Hell, even if they do get fixed HACs are going to need some loving, since they're kind of in the same boat since HICs got buffed.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
362
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 12:43:05 -
[56] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Leila Meurtrier wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Why are we comparing t1 hulls to t2 hulls again? I'm not really sure where the argument here is when AFs are generally very strong in frigate meta and used to be reasonable in the larger meta but now their position and the position of all non-cloaky frigates in the game seems to have been made somewhat irrelevant or at least that seems to be the argument I'm seeing. Except that they've seen limited use even before t3ds rolling out. They have tight enough fittings to fail meeting of their own builds in CCPs vision as heavily tanked MWDing bull. Take for example, retribution, which simply can not fit reasonably focused pulses, MWD, scram and 400mm plate. Slow speed limiting it's kiting abilities and it's straight inferior to slicer in such regard. T3d weren't they only stone thrown at it, it was just the last one ...or not. Last one was punisher receiving "fit any type of turret for free" treatment as an early X-mass gift. I actually took the time to look into this claim that AF use was low and found it was not true. AF were popular and in heavy use right up until a few weeks after T3D were added. In fact all frigate activity aside from the cov ops and logistics branches took a very noticeable hit in usage along with T1 destroyers. This is not just an AF problem, t3d have messed up the entire small ship balance.
Their usage from what I saw dropped off after 'tier 1' destroyers got buffed, and the 'tier 2' destroyers came around. Everything else was just more nails in the coffin. In this area they're about as rare as an EAF.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Legion
17102
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 18:04:29 -
[57] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:
Their usage from what I saw dropped off after 'tier 1' destroyers got buffed, and the 'tier 2' destroyers came around. Everything else was just more nails in the coffin. In this area they're about as rare as an EAF.
T1 destroyers are fairly well balanced. Flown well they can be very nice but at the same time AF were not at a huge disadvantage and could fight back if flown well. T3D just **** pillage and burn all in their path with next to no hope of anything under or in their class winning a fight.
T1 destroyers are in an even worse position than AF are as they are utterly outclasses in every area aside from the catalysts use as a suicide ganker. Its the reason why I say nerf T3Ds rather than buff AF because T3D have invalidated a whole lot more than just the 8 AF which are still good ships in a scrap.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated
Executive Outcomes
358
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 08:10:27 -
[58] - Quote
At the risk of agreeing with a PL dude.........Baltec is spot on.
On their own the T1 Destroyers were pretty well balanced and fell fairly well in line with T1 frigs and AF's. The new destroyers didn't create new roles so much as obsolete any competition for the current role.
I don't think there should be a T2 variant of a ship that is focused on tank/damage. So basically no AF's or HACs . T2's should be highly specialized support ships. They should offer large force multipliers but be restricted to being very very gimped in effective DPS. They should not be the main ship of the line.
The T1 version of a hull should be the 'basic DPS' variant with bonuses for damage/range/speed. The T2 variants are specialized versions that get role-specific bonuses and resist/tank buffs for survivability but at the cost of being viable as a ship of the line.
That way the core of any fleet would be basic T1 ships. T2's would only be fielded as support to those T1's and would represent a small percentage of a given fleet rather than the majority or even entirety of it as is common in the current meta.
Another problem is the entire concept of ships so versatile that they obsolete half the line up of ships in the game (T3's in general). New ships should create new roles within a fleet- not simply do all of the existing ones so well there is no need to fly anything else.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
731
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 19:53:05 -
[59] - Quote
Tung Yoggi wrote:Indeed, yet i believe the ones who suffer the most from T3Ds are AFs, because they kinda lost their "tank hard, hit hard" edge in the sub-cruiser meta to T3Ds.
As for what they need right now, I kind of like the idea of buffing their combat potential against larger targets, while tweaking the T3D since it is true that it is not only an AF issue.
Ideally, i would like to see T3D lean towards slightly less damage and more application (frig killers), and AF going for more mitigation against higher class ships (cruisers killers / heavy tacklers).
The other option i see would be to have an harpy-like AF for every race (projection bonus), which could therefore be used in fleets. However, that might be more problematic, and won't really change their usefulness in smaller gangs.
I think there is some truth to this, and your idea of nerfing the T3D damage output is warranted (400 dps svipuls, why fly stabber?) since it competes with cruisers. You don't need 430dps out of something faster and just as tanky as a cruiser to kill frigs. Although the main culprit is the svipul. The hecates dps comes at a cost (its slow, and vulnerable to neuts). The svipul has no "weakness" per say. Just overwhelm it with dps, neuts and webs.
However, i don't think AF "need" mitigation against larger ships. I've fought against and used AF against larger ships. Large ships only have an issue when they don't fit for application.
Best example: All tank drake with only a scram. Of course you can't hit/damage an AF, you aren't fit for the job. Drop some extenders and slap on a couple webs and a missile computer and you're golden at killing any frig/T3D.
What i'm getting at is, there is no reason to nerf large ships to fix a smaller class of ship. AF's were already viable against larger ships. Yea if you fought someone who wanted to genocide frigs with a drake/typhoon, it would happen. Thats not the AF's fault, its the fact the person flying the big ship sacrificed tank, for application. In the case of a max tank drake, or any turret BS, an AF would have a field day tanking it.
I also don't believe in homogenizing AF. Harpies have range because they're Caldari, which the trend in their hybrid ships is they favor range. The harpy sacrificed a trait for double optimal bonus, that is the racial flavor. We don't need dual optimal bonused jaguars, or 100% optimal retributions. There can still be variety in each race, and still have different roles for each ship. Homogenizing 4 AF to be basically the same, but with different weapons is boring.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
380
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 17:54:18 -
[60] - Quote
Give Assault Frigates a 50% reduction bonus to enemy e-war effects (except warp disruptors/scramblers). |
Durbon Groth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 06:01:26 -
[61] - Quote
I'm liking the gist of this thread - I just lost my first shtfit arty buffer svipul and I think it's OP. So easy to fly, extremely forgiving and of course, got all the deeps and speed you'd want. I'm probably biased because I love tech2 frigates but I don't think it's unreasonable to nerf the svipul a bit. Like people have already said, nerf the DPS a little, focus on the application. I'm not even sure why they have a bonus to Scan probe launchers as it doesn't suit their role - unless you're flying one solo hunting explorers in sites - at which point it becomes a jack-of-all trades, which is pretty good for 100m.
So yeah, slight buff for AFs, I love the idea of a sig reduction and some extra PG/CPU so you can have some crazy fun with them and some slight boosts to base stats to set them apart from tech1 frigates where needed; and at the same time a slight nerf to the T3D's (admittedly I havn't tried any apart from the svipul yet) in terms of natural speed and DPS. Or, Perhaps introduce a penalty to certain things when in different modes - like a tracking penalty in speed mode, or a speed penalty in tank mode etc. so changing modes is much more situational to your weaknesses, as well as your strengths. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1094
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:33:39 -
[62] - Quote
remove svipul from the game, problem solved. |
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