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Kalden Rollard
Fowl Play.
Phoebe Freeport Republic
3
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Posted - 2016.01.11 12:29:41 -
[1] - Quote
Just posting this here, as a mirror to a Reddit post I made, after it was suggested that it might be better posted here.
So we already know that we've had skillpoint reassignment before, so there's definitely a mechanic for a pool of assignable skill points.
I'm asking about this because last night I paused my skill queue to plug in some implants and then logged off for the night; meaning I missed out on about 13 hours of skill training. Hardly an apocalyptic scenario, but still mildly annoying.
Seems to me like it'd be terrifically nice if we could have a mechanic that allowed us to avoid silly mistakes that make us waste skill training time (and thus sub money). I'm not sure I see how such a system could be exploited? |
ToshioMagic
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2016.01.11 12:46:35 -
[2] - Quote
One problem may be that people could save up all the sp they want and then sell a fully customizable character on the bazaar. This devalues all of the other characters with allocated sp. Perhaps preventing a character with unallocated sp from being sold on the bazaar, or having the sp accrue at 50% speed, is a remedy for something like that. I like this idea though. I've lost quite a bit of training time due to my own forgetfulness. |
Mag's
Rabble Inc.
Rabble Alliance
20954
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 12:49:57 -
[3] - Quote
Actually if they removed attributes and had a fixed SP/hr amount, I think they could remove the need to pause the queue in the first place.
That's the goal we should aim for tbh.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Varus Tulvak
The Crown Estate Trading
0
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Posted - 2016.01.11 13:10:02 -
[4] - Quote
You don't need to pause the queue for plugging implants anymore and I think with the change to the skill queue to allow as many skills to be queued as you'd like means that this may not be a huge priority for the devs.
Just playing devil's advocate. |
Muon Farstrider
Partial Safety
7
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Posted - 2016.01.11 13:17:26 -
[5] - Quote
Kalden Rollard wrote:I'm not sure I see how such a system could be exploited?
Well, under the current attribute system the most obvious exploit I see is using this to (at least partially) get around the effects of remaps. That is, using this to train something off-remap faster than if you just put it in your queue.
I'm assuming that when you're in the 'not training anything' state, you'd probably accumulate banked SP at a flat rate that wouldn't depend on your remap, because you're not actually training any particular skill. (This is equivalent to saying that it'd effectively average your attributes.)
So, let's say I'm on an int/mem remap (because I am) and I decide I really want to train Gallente Frigate V (because I kinda do). Training a 2x skill from 4 to 5 requires 421,490 SP. This is a per/will skill, so on my int/mem remap I'd only be training it at a rate of 1530 SP/hr (ignoring implants) and it would therefore take ~275.5 hr, or about 11 and a half days. On the other hand, if you accumulate banked SP at a flat rate that's the average of your attributes you'd get 1782 SP/hr. If I just stopped my queue and started banking SP, I'd have enough to train that frigate V skill in ~236.5 hr, or a bit under 10 days.
Now, it's not a huge difference by any means, but it *does* allow people to at least partially get around the designed limitations of the attribute system. The only way to prevent that would be to say that instead of gaining SP at an average rate you'd gain it at the *lowest* rate of your current remap, but that then makes it *really* punishing in terms of lost SP relative to if you hadn't forgotten to start your queue for people who are using this feature for its designed purpose. (They'd already be losing some SP by only banking it at the average rate rather than at the rate of an on-remap skill, but this would make it much worse.)
That said, IMO the attribute system is stupid and needs to die in a fire *anyway*, so personally I wouldn't *care* very much about this particular small exploit, but it *would* still be an exploitable system. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2479
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 13:18:25 -
[6] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Actually if they removed attributes and had a fixed SP/hr amount, I think they could remove the need to pause the queue in the first place.
That's the goal we should aim for tbh.
There would still be jumpclonoes unless they manage to deal with that hurdle too. I hope they do tbh. |
Mag's
Rabble Inc.
Rabble Alliance
20955
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 13:33:17 -
[7] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Mag's wrote:Actually if they removed attributes and had a fixed SP/hr amount, I think they could remove the need to pause the queue in the first place.
That's the goal we should aim for tbh. There would still be jumpclonoes unless they manage to deal with that hurdle too. I hope they do tbh. I have a feeling that's due to the attributes found in implants. I'm not against them being removed also.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Aurthes
M. Corp Engineering
Executive Outcomes
61
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Posted - 2016.01.11 14:08:56 -
[8] - Quote
One issue would be how to handle multiple pilot training. Lets say that you have two pilots training and their queues run out, or you activate a certificate/plex, but don't initiate training. Would you then be able to apply twice as many skill points to the same character? If you never initiated training on an alt, where would the excess SPs go? |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
99
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Posted - 2016.01.11 14:16:20 -
[9] - Quote
Here's a problem scenario:
I have three characters on one account. I'm not using the Multiple Character Training. All characters have the max of 50 skills in the training queue. Only one is training currently. All have been trained somewhat previously.
If I stop the training on a character. How does the system know which character is supposed to get the skill points?
Are all of the characters accruing points?
Actually, I think that an alarm or Huge Red Notice that you're not training anything on that account should suffice, though if such an accrual system were to be implemented, the points should be gained at the minimum rate.
Right now that would assume the character has 19's in both attributes with no benefit of implants. Maybe put that in a pool that could be applied to any character on the account? It would still be much more beneficial to actually train the appropriate skill with the better attribute set up and implants, but the player wouldn't lose out completely.
--Gadget
Edit. LOL
Last post was sent while I was typing, but my point still stands. :)
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Ninja Riot
Shinigami Research and Development Institute
0
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Posted - 2016.01.11 14:24:26 -
[10] - Quote
The accruing of SP would need to be at a rate that is equal to the minimum possible w/o any remap points and implants so as to not be abused. Also if you have multiple character training active, I assume they would set the unallocated points to the characters w/ highest SP to least. |
Tellatubby
Cylon Nation
Coalition of the Unfortunate
4
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Posted - 2016.01.11 14:55:36 -
[11] - Quote
/signed.
All the times I forgot to hit apply... |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
779
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 16:48:24 -
[12] - Quote
No, for reasons already outlined.
But, I understand where you're coming from. I'd be good for a popup that gates logoff if your skill queue is inactive alerting you to such a condition and recommending you check with your queue before logging. Why not? We get popups for everything else.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Jack Harvey
Iron Inquisition
Sanctuary Pact
4
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Posted - 2016.01.11 17:39:31 -
[13] - Quote
I like this idea.
GÖª The devs will figure out how to make this work if the idea goes through. It won't be an apocalypse.
GÖª A common criticism will be something like "Let's not make this like World of Witchcraft!". If everyone had all V everything, it still wouldn't be WOW. Or close.
GÖª The personal skill of managing attributes is only a burden. If I wanted to take a road trip to Miami Beach, driving ten hours to get there doesn't make the beach better. Sure, road trips are fun - because I make them fun, but the beach itself is why I went. |
Requiescat
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
207
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:32:24 -
[14] - Quote
Muon Farstrider wrote:Well, under the current attribute system the most obvious exploit I see is using this to (at least partially) get around the effects of remaps. That is, using this to train something off-remap faster than if you just put it in your queue.
easy solution: unallocated sp gathered while nothing is in the skill queue accumulate at a rate determined by using your lowest attribute as primary and your second-lowest attribute as a secondary. specific remaps then become useful for active training, and balanced remaps become useful for when you don't have anything useful left to train
additionally, this could tie in nicely with bottling and selling sp - imagine if only unallocated sp could be bottled?
Aurthes wrote:One issue would be how to handle multiple pilot training.
this was a concern of mine as well, and perhaps more broad than you've touched on: if no pilot on an account has an active skill queue, how do you determine which character is accumulating sp? a solution to that problem is a solution to multiple pilot training as well - perhaps a checkbox on a character's skill queue to toggle whether it is an "active" queue or not
hi i'm requiescat, and i'm your best friendGÖÑ
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
99
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:37:04 -
[15] - Quote
Requiescat wrote:Aurthes wrote:One issue would be how to handle multiple pilot training. this was a concern of mine as well, and perhaps more broad than you've touched on: if no pilot on an account has an active skill queue, how do you determine which character is accumulating sp? a solution to that problem is a solution to multiple pilot training as well - perhaps a checkbox on a character's skill queue to toggle whether it is an "active" queue or not
Maybe I missed something, but if you can click the checkbox, then you can click 'Apply'.
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2216
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Actually if they removed attributes and had a fixed SP/hr amount, I think they could remove the need to pause the queue in the first place.
That's the goal we should aim for tbh.
This! All the way!
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2858
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Posted - 2016.01.11 18:59:17 -
[17] - Quote
Kalden Rollard wrote:Seems to me like it'd be terrifically nice if we could have a mechanic that allowed us to avoid silly mistakes that make us waste skill training time (and thus sub money). I'm not sure I see how such a system could be exploited?
It would need to have limitations to prevent people using it to farm untrained characters that they can fully train at a moment's notice simply by spending ISK/PLEX/AUR/RM. I'd say just allow a maximum time of 8.33% of the character's current age or 3 months, whichever is shorter. As the time accrues, it will record your neural attributes including changes from plugging in implants or jumping clones, and you can get the SP back in lumps of one month by setting up a skill queue going forward at least one month, then activating a reverse game time code on your account. If you have a month of recoverable training, you'll begin training a whole month on a background skillqueue which you can't adjust as it's training, but which will run alongside your regular skillqueue. It shouldn't train instantly because people would abuse that to get the training they need as soon as they find out they need it.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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bardghost Isu
Casteil Extraction Corporation
M3 Industries
21
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:02:09 -
[18] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:Requiescat wrote:Aurthes wrote:One issue would be how to handle multiple pilot training. this was a concern of mine as well, and perhaps more broad than you've touched on: if no pilot on an account has an active skill queue, how do you determine which character is accumulating sp? a solution to that problem is a solution to multiple pilot training as well - perhaps a checkbox on a character's skill queue to toggle whether it is an "active" queue or not Maybe I missed something, but if you can click the checkbox, then you can click 'Apply'. --Gadget
However this tick box would be more of a set it once and don't worry again unless your changing which characters are training.
There's No Kill Like Overkill !
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
49
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:03:46 -
[19] - Quote
Playing devil's advocate, if a core tenant of EVE is that every action has a consequence, shouldn't there be a negative consequence (not gaining SPs) to forgetting to click apply? |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
100
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:07:23 -
[20] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
It would need to have limitations to prevent people using it to farm untrained characters that they can fully train at a moment's notice simply by spending ISK/PLEX/AUR/RM....Blah, blah, blah... It shouldn't train instantly because people would abuse that to get the training they need as soon as they find out they need it.
This.
I'm ignoring the crazy in the centre. 
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
103
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Posted - 2016.01.11 19:08:41 -
[21] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Playing devil's advocate, if a core tenant of EVE is that every action has a consequence, shouldn't there be a negative consequence (not gaining SPs) to forgetting to click apply?
If you were to gain less SP, that's a consequence, if just a lesser-not-want-to-ragequit one.
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2859
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 19:26:06 -
[22] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Playing devil's advocate, if a core tenant of EVE is that every action has a consequence, shouldn't there be a negative consequence (not gaining SPs) to forgetting to click apply?
With this playerbase, that viewpoint isn't really Devil's Advocate. :P
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:If you were to gain less SP, that's a consequence, if just a lesser-not-want-to-ragequit one.
--Gadget
Good idea. Maybe something like what I said on post #17 except instead of tracking your attributes, it counts you as having zero bonus attributes including the allocate-able attributes, and you just have the base 17 for training on time you missed.
CCP could also make such a system but rather than present it to the playerbase, use it as a retention tool that GMs can selectively hand out to players who complain they will quit due to loss of training time.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Alexis Nightwish
381
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Posted - 2016.01.11 20:49:35 -
[23] - Quote
The best solution is to make is so you never have to pause the queue. Implants, jumpclones, remapping, whatever. Nothing should require the pause button. Hell, if you wanted to train on another character on the same account (w/o MCT), you should just be able to click apply on that other character's skill queue and get a popup warning you that Character X's training will pause.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
43078
|
Posted - 2016.01.11 21:15:03 -
[24] - Quote
+1
Saw this on Reddit and thought it was a good idea.
The reply above highlights why, in the absence of removing the need to pause the skill queue.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kalden Rollard
Fowl Play.
Phoebe Freeport Republic
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 11:00:59 -
[25] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:The best solution is to make is so you never have to pause the queue. Implants, jumpclones, remapping, whatever. Nothing should require the pause button. Hell, if you wanted to train on another character on the same account (w/o MCT), you should just be able to click apply on that other character's skill queue and get a popup warning you that Character X's training will pause.
Y'know, that's probably an even better alternative - would there be any problems if it were made *impossible* to pause the skill queue? Like, when you first log onto a new toon he is training some skill by default and from that point on you can only change what's being trained?
I'll second the point r.e. alts - it's an absolute pain in the keister to have to change character every time you want to transfer your training. |
Alexis Nightwish
385
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Posted - 2016.01.12 22:25:23 -
[26] - Quote
Kalden Rollard wrote:Alexis Nightwish wrote:The best solution is to make is so you never have to pause the queue. Implants, jumpclones, remapping, whatever. Nothing should require the pause button. Hell, if you wanted to train on another character on the same account (w/o MCT), you should just be able to click apply on that other character's skill queue and get a popup warning you that Character X's training will pause. Y'know, that's probably an even better alternative - would there be any problems if it were made *impossible* to pause the skill queue? Like, when you first log onto a new toon he is training some skill by default and from that point on you can only change what's being trained? I'll second the point r.e. alts - it's an absolute pain in the keister to have to change character every time you want to transfer your training.
Exactly. If for some reason you *really* need to stop training on a character (I think this needs to be done to sell a character on the bazaar), just empty the skill queue and hit apply.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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