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The Ferox is underpowered and needs a buff

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Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2890	Posted - 2016.01.25 02:27:20 - [1] - Quote We can see that the Ferox is clearly underpowered by simply comparing it with the two ships which are most similar to it in design: the Harbinger and Brutix. All three battlecruisers have 6 weapon slots and 7 high slots along with a combined total of 10 medium and low slots. Both the Brutix and Harbinger have a 10% damage bonus combined with a standard weapon or defensive bonus, but the Ferox gets a standard weapon bonus with a 5% damage bonus. Couple this with its much smaller drone bay/bandwidth and you get a ship which fits similarly but hits a lot softer and has no bonuses to counter this. I have two solutions to fix this: Ferox - new skill bonus setup 1 Caldari Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level) 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage(increased from 5%) 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range Role Bonus: - can fit Warfare Link modules 25% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and falloff Ferox - new skill bonus setup 2 Caldari Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level) 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range 4% bonus to all shield resistances(giving it back its old defensive bonus) Role Bonus: - can fit Warfare Link modules 25% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and falloff 20% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage(makes up for 1 less weapon, same as other combat battlecruisers) With either of these buffs, it'll still be a bit weaker in raw power due to its reduced drone capacity, but that is a much smaller variation which it can live with. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2248	Posted - 2016.01.25 04:59:04 - [2] - Quote Personally, I think the Ferox is just fine. Please post comparisons for the fitted ships, not just something based on the hull bonuses. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Lann Shahni Anderson Technologies 6	Posted - 2016.01.25 05:57:11 - [3] - Quote I to think the ferox is fine, fitting it correct you get a ship capable dealing a good damage a long range, combine that with MJD, and you got a winner
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 731	Posted - 2016.01.25 06:25:56 - [4] - Quote Ferox is one of the stronger BC's right now. Good range, decent damage and more forgiving fitting than it used to have. Not to mention you can squeeze big tanks on them now. Its tank is just as sustainable as a brutix, but better, with less dps. Thats the price you pay, but you can still get around 550-600 dps with a fit like this. [Ferox, XLASB] Co-Processor II Internal Force Field Array I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Small Energy Nosferatu II Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Acolyte II x5 This doesn't even touch on the fact that many alliances and other groups are using Ferox as cheap rail doctrines. Where they will be better than brutix as a rail platform. That is their main role, long range sniping. Something the brutix cannot do well, and the harb is marginal at. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 06:43:14 - [5] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Personally, I think the Ferox is just fine. Please post comparisons for the fitted ships, not just something based on the hull bonuses. Comparisons, all using T2 long range guns, T2 or faction ammo, max skills, no other bonuses. The rest of the ship is left unfit out of haste, but the remaining fitting room is quite comparable though I will admit the Brutix has both less CPU and powergrid--but keep in mind it is designed for blasters. I am putting rails on the Brutix for better comparison of damage projection. These are comparing only the weapons, not the drones. Harbinger, Imperial Navy Gamma Range: 23+13 DPS: 375 Tracking: 0.037 Ferox, Javelin Range: 17+19 DPS: 331 Tracking: 0.032 Brutix, Federation Navy Antimatter Range: 23+19 DPS: 391 Tracking: 0.026 In this comparison, the Harbinger and Ferox have about the same range, but the Harbinger has both higher DPS and higher tracking. The Brutix has lower tracking but it has significantly higher range and considerably higher damage. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Harbinger, Imperial Navy Standard Range: 38+13 DPS: 273 Tracking: 0.037 Ferox, Federation Navy Antimatter Range: 34+19 DPS: 326 Tracking: 0.026 Brutix, Federation Navy Uranium Range: 34+19 DPS: 326 Tracking: 0.026 In this comparison, the Brutix and Ferox have identical projection. The Harbinger has considerably less DPS with considerably better tracking. Note that here, where the Ferox is using antimatter, it is using one of the two best-projecting ammos (the other being spike), while the Harbinger and Brutix are using longer range navy ammo and losing a lot of DPS for that. Even so, the Ferox is not a clear winner over either of the other two. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Harbinger, Imperial Navy Gamma Range: 68+13 DPS: 237 Tracking: 0.009 Ferox, Javelin Range: 122+19 DPS: 189 Tracking: 0.006 Brutix, Federation Navy Antimatter Range: 81+19 DPS: 227 Tracking: 0.006 It is difficult to give long range comparisons because of the huge disparity between faction and tech 2 ammo along with the huge difference in range of the weapon systems between these ships. I am comparing the T2 long range ammo for the three ships despite the huge range difference. The Harbinger has a bit more DPS than the Brutix, with the bigger difference being that it gives up some range in favor of a LOT more tracking. The Ferox and Brutix have the same tracking, and the Ferox has significantly more range but the DPS is quite a bit lower. My conclusion: if range is the only thing that's important to you, the Ferox can outrange the other two. But its damage projection doesn't particularly shine at any level and rather fails at some levels. And remember, this is before drones. Add in drones and the Harbinger and Brutix easily dominate the Ferox. If you think the Ferox's guns alone are balanced already, then at least consider that the Ferox should have a slightly more powerful set of weapons to offset what it lacks in drone power. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2256	Posted - 2016.01.25 07:24:54 - [6] - Quote I cannot agree with the assumption the Ferox is underpowered compared to other BC. Especially in fleets, the Ferox' longer lock range compared to, for instance, the Hurricane makes it more viable than the Cane. Damage output is also similar to the cane. I probably don't need to mention that the tank on the Ferox also outclasses that of the Hurricane. In your last post's comparison, you compare the Ferox with Spike to a Harbinger with Faction short range and a Brutix with Faction short range ammo. I hope you see the mistake yourself. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 07:48:45 - [7] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: In your last post's comparison, you compare the Ferox with Spike to a Harbinger with Faction short range and a Brutix with Faction short range ammo. I hope you see the mistake yourself. lemme edit that FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1117	Posted - 2016.01.25 07:52:45 - [8] - Quote You called spike javelin. I did a double take too.
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2257	Posted - 2016.01.25 07:58:35 - [9] - Quote Now that makes more sense. But I still do not see a problem. A Ferox with the same DPS of a Brutix in combination with the 120 km range and the better tank of the Ferox would make this ship outclassing everything in the BC range when fitted with long range weaponry. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 08:29:54 - [10] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Now that makes more sense. But I still do not see a problem. A Ferox with the same DPS of a Brutix in combination with the 120 km range and the better tank of the Ferox would make this ship outclassing everything in the BC range when fitted with long range weaponry. That might be true if the Ferox actually had better tank than the Brutix but it doesn't. It has similar damage projection to the Brutix despite the Brutix being the one with considerably stronger defense. The Brutix gets its damage projection with one skill bonus while the Ferox has two skill bonuses dedicated to its weapons, and from that it gets only as much as the Brutix gets with one. Not sure how this is difficult to see. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Andrew Indy POS Party Ember Sands 147	Posted - 2016.01.25 08:32:12 - [11] - Quote Range is a huge bonus in eve. Quote: Ferox - new skill bonus setup 1 So the same DPS as a Brutix but with 50% more range. Next week you will be posting a thread about the brutix being bad.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 09:27:26 - [12] - Quote If we assume that the Harbinger and Brutix are in the right place, then the Ferox, Drake, Hurricane, and Cyclone are all underpowered. If the Drake isn't underpowered, it's because cruiser missiles are overpowered (which they aren't). Allow me to demonstrate: Harbinger: Turrets: 6 10% damage bonus plus a standard weapon bonus Effective turrets: 9, not counting weapon bonus Utility high slots: 1 Utility Weapons: 0 Drones: 50mbit/sec Brutix: Turrets: 6 10% damage bonus plus a standard defensive bonus Effective turrets: 9 Utility high slots: 1 Utility Weapons: 0 Drones: 50mbit/sec Ferox: Turrets: 6 5% damage bonus plus a standard weapon bonus Effective turrets: 7.5, not counting weapon bonus Utility high slots: 1 Utility Weapons: 0 Drones: 25mbit/sec Drake: Launchers: 6 10% kinetic only damage bonus plus a standard defensive bonus Effective missiles: 9 kinetic, 6 any other type Utility high slots: 1 Utility Weapons: 0 Drones: 25mbit/sec Cyclone: Launchers: 5 5% rate of fire bonus plus a standard defensive bonus Effective missiles: 6.667 Utility high slots: 2 Utility Weapons: 2 Drones: 50mbit/sec Hurricane: Turrets: 6 5% rate of fire, 5% damage Effective turrets: 10 Utility high slots: 1 Utility Weapons: 1 Drones: 40mbit/sec In case you don't see the disparity yet, let's do some cross-canceling. They all have at least 25 mbit/sec drone bandwidth and 1 utility high, so I'll eliminate those. They all have a skill bonus other than damage, except the Hurricane. I'll also erase the turrets consideration and skill bonuses for now to condense the chart further. Harbinger: Effective turrets: 9 Drones: +25mbit/sec Brutix: Effective turrets: 9 Drones: +25mbit/sec Ferox: Effective turrets: 7.5 Drake: Effective missiles: 9 kinetic, 6 any other type Cyclone: Effective missiles: 6.667 Utility high slots: +1 Utility Weapons: +2 Drones: +25mbit/sec Hurricane: Effective turrets: 10 Other skill bonuses: -1 Utility Weapons: +1 Drones: +15mbit/sec So here in the condensed chart you can see that the Harbinger and Brutix both have 9 effective turrets. They fill 6 slots to get this, and pay powergrid/CPU for 6 turrets. They then have a utility high remaining, +25mbit/sec bandwidth over the minimum, and either a weapon bonus or defensive bonus. The Ferox falls short quite clearly, as it has just 7.5 effective turrets before the weapon bonus, despite it having to pay for those same 6 weapons. But it gets even worse, the Ferox has no extra drone bandwidth. It is rather impotent next to the much more powerful Harbinger, or the much more durable Brutix. The Ferox should at minimum have its damage bonus increased to 10% per level. The Hurricane musters slightly more weapon power out of the same six weapon slots, but at the cost of lacking any other bonus aside from raw damage. Like the Ferox, the Hurricane has been shortchanged on its damage bonus. Now it can fit a utility weapon for a total effective weapons count of 11, but it must pay the powergrid and CPU to fit it, as well as using up the ship's utility high so that's not much of a bonus in its overall strength as a ship. Were it given a proper 10% per level bonus to damage, it would have 12 effective turrets but no other weapon skill bonus. Now I can see where that might be a bit overpowered, giving it too much room for use as a fast gank ship. So compromise and give it a 7.5% damage bonus per level. That will leave it at 11 effective turrets, 12 total effective weapons if it uses the utility high for a weapon. That high raw power comes at the cost of it not having any range or tracking bonuses, and since it's using projectiles it still won't have all that much DPS. The Drake has a 10% damage bonus, but only to kinetic. To understand this problem, you must understand how missiles work. They deal less DPS than turrets (lasers and hybrids) for the same range because they have the advantage of being able to deal damage of any type. When you give a ship a bonus only to kinetic missile damage, you are taking away its ability to get top damage with its choice of type, making its missiles much more on par with laser/hybrid turret damage application. You must then follow through and give the ship laser/hybrid damage. The Drake should have a 20% bonus to kinetic missile damage, or 15% to kinetic and 5% to other types, or 10% to all missile damage. At 20% to kinetic per level, its effective launchers amount will be 12 when using kinetic, or 6 when using any other (other damage types will be essentially useless). You might think that 12 seems way too high, but consider how much weaker missiles are. I ran a comparison between Drake and Brutix. I used Railguns with Antimatter vs. Heavy Assault Launchers with Scourge: Brutix: 23+19 \| 340 Drake: 25.3 \| 281//374 Drake with 9 effective launchers deals much less damage at shorter range. Drake with 12 effective launchers does a bit more damage which helps make up for the reduced range. The Cyclone has only 5 launcher hardpoints, yet it gets a weak 5% rate of fire bonus. This is the weakest battlecruiser of all, as it gets absolutely no grand bonus to offset this huge glaring weakness. With 2 turrets fit, it still nets a mere 8.667 effective weapons, still less than a Brutix or Harbinger which have their utility high left over. Increase the rate of fire bonus to 7.5% and the Cyclone will get 8 effective weapons out of the 5 slots. Then with 6 weapons fit, it will have 9 effective weapons. The drawback of having mixed weapons on high damage fits is countered by its ability to use two utility highs and maintain full damage bonus from ship bonus. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 09:29:23 - [13] - Quote Andrew Indy wrote: So the same DPS as a Brutix but with 50% more range. Next week you will be posting a thread about the brutix being bad. How do you get figures suggesting to you that the DPS is the same? The Brutix has much better DPS than the Ferox. Why would I post saying the Brutix is bad? It's far more powerful than the Ferox. There's nothing wrong with the Brutix except for its speed. It's a blaster boat, it shouldn't be so much slower than some of the other combat battlecruisers. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 1052	Posted - 2016.01.25 09:34:59 - [14] - Quote In my opinion the Ferox is just fine the way she is. The only thing I don't agree on is the pricetag but that's for another day - if EVE stays online until then. If you fly the Ferox like the most hated ship of all times - coincidentely a missile boat - you have a strong ship. Use Null M a lot, it helps. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 09:46:29 - [15] - Quote elitatwo wrote: In my opinion the Ferox is just fine the way she is. The only thing I don't agree on is the pricetag but that's for another day - if EVE stays online until then. If you fly the Ferox like the most hated ship of all times - coincidentely a missile boat - you have a strong ship. Use Null M a lot, it helps. That's a terrible idea. The Brutix is faster and tougher, and can deal MUCH more damage with Javelin at significantly higher range. The only benefit from using the Ferox with Null is better tracking. After thinking about it a bit, I take back what I said about giving the Hurricane only 7.5% damage bonus per level. No, it should have the full 10% damage bonus per level. I compared it to a Brutix in EFT. Even with the full 10% bonus damage per level, the Hurricane still dealt only a bit more damage than Brutix (both short range ammo) when the Hurricane had an extra launcher fitted, and less damage when it didn't. Its range is marginally better than the Brutix except for the launcher so it's basically just trading the utility of having variable damage type for the armor repair bonus on the Brutix. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1117	Posted - 2016.01.25 09:53:49 - [16] - Quote I'm honestly not getting the problem. Ferox with 250s and CNAM is 326 @34+19. The brutix is 391 @23+19. That is quite a significant projection decrease and as I'm sure you're aware range is essentially a DPS buff for turrets. If the brutix wishes to compete at that range then it has to load CNUR which is....wait for it....326 @34+19 Brutix is brawlier, ferox is a longer ranged beast. /shrug. Seems alright to me. All done on empty fits with 250mm rails.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 10:00:31 - [17] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: I'm honestly not getting the problem. Ferox with 250s and CNAM is 326 @34+19. The brutix is 391 @23+19. The Brutix has an armor rep bonus. The Ferox does not have any other bonus outside its weapons. What does the Ferox get to counterbalance the Brutix's bonus? FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1117	Posted - 2016.01.25 10:11:12 - [18] - Quote Range I do not think giving the ferox MORE dps is a good move because that vastly strengthens the fleet use, where a rep bonus counts for absolutely nothing. Likewise a resist bonus has the same effect. They're just different, I don't think the balance is a million miles away.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 10:28:08 - [19] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Range I do not think giving the ferox MORE dps is a good move because that vastly strengthens the fleet use, where a rep bonus counts for absolutely nothing. Likewise a resist bonus has the same effect. They're just different, I don't think the balance is a million miles away. So what you're saying is that since the rep bonus isn't useful for fleets, it's not worth counting when balancing the two ships? The Brutix isn't a fleeting ship, it shouldn't be on par with a Ferox when used in fleet PVP operations. So we've agreed on this much so far: The Ferox has more range. The Brutix has more damage. The Brutix has more defense. Eliminate the damage disparity and you have a fair trade off. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2928	Posted - 2016.01.25 10:38:43 - [20] - Quote Yet somehow people love the ferox and it's featuring very strongly in fleets. EFT warrioring on very specific aspects with weird choices of numbers does not tell the whole story.
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2257	Posted - 2016.01.25 11:25:30 - [21] - Quote A Ferox can outclass a Harbinger simply by being faster and having more range. A Harbinger fleet has no way of winning against a similarly strong Ferox fleet for the simple reason that the Harbs cannot get in range of the Feroxes, whereas Feroxes can simply fly circles around them without problems. The same goes for a Brutix and Hurricanes. That is all in fleet scenarios. However, as demonstrated by suitonia even before the BC changes, a Ferox can also perform very well in solo/small gank scenarios. As said, I do not see a problem at all with Feroxes. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2135	Posted - 2016.01.25 13:59:49 - [22] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: How do you get figures suggesting to you that the DPS is the same? The Brutix has much better DPS than the Ferox. No it doesn't, it gets "slightly" more dps but has worse damage projection than the ferox. The ferox is great with blasters or rails and has a good tank. The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1769	Posted - 2016.01.25 15:25:37 - [23] - Quote Reaver, you make me sad. I thought your were above this sort of thing. Shame on you. Either of your proposed changes would have the same outcome - The ferox would be THE BC blob ship of choice. It would just simply be better than all the others at flying around in flocks chewing through everything. Superior Scimi survivability or superior damage projection. Sigh.... I'm going to go sit in a corner and try to come to terms with this thread. You've betrayed us all.
Lann Shahni Anderson Technologies 9	Posted - 2016.01.25 15:30:58 - [24] - Quote I don't understand why you insist on trying use the ferox as a Brawler, when it's a sniper boat, like trying to use fork as spoon, you can do it, just not very well! it's the best medium sniper, that sniper it's not much used is another case! if you wana a brawler ship use one!
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2248	Posted - 2016.01.25 15:50:45 - [25] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Yet somehow people love the ferox and it's featuring very strongly in fleets. EFT warrioring on very specific aspects with weird choices of numbers does not tell the whole story. It's almost like you have to undock and fly the ships to see how they perform, rather than simply reading the description. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 18:37:42 - [26] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: A Ferox can outclass a Harbinger simply by being faster and having more range. A Harbinger fleet has no way of winning against a similarly strong Ferox fleet for the simple reason that the Harbs cannot get in range of the Feroxes, whereas Feroxes can simply fly circles around them without problems. That is patently false, Harbingers are much faster than Feroxes. Also, MMJDs. Rivr Luzade wrote: However, as demonstrated by suitonia even before the BC changes, a Ferox can also perform very well in solo/small gank scenarios. Battlebadgers prove that bad ships can do great things. That doesn't mean the Ferox isn't underpowered. Rek Seven wrote: No it doesn't, it gets "slightly" more dps but has worse damage projection than the ferox. The ferox is great with blasters or rails and has a good tank. No, it gets WAY more damage. A Brutix with rails can outdamage a Ferox with blasters by a good margin. And then it gets a tank bonus on top. All Combat Battlecruisers have good tank, but the Ferox does not stand out above the others for its tank. Serendipity Lost wrote: Either of your proposed changes would have the same outcome - The ferox would be THE BC blob ship of choice. It would just simply be better than all the others at flying around in flocks chewing through everything. Superior Scimi survivability or superior damage projection. Sigh.... Please give any reason at all to defend why you think this would be true? Just saying it doesn't make it true and all evidence seems to suggest the opposite. I've never seen or heard of a Ferox fleet doctrine. Lann Shahni wrote: I don't understand why you insist on trying use the ferox as a Brawler, when it's a sniper boat, At what point did I ever suggest using the Ferox as a brawler? I am well aware it is a sniper. It's not a very good sniper. The only reason it has a niche at all is because it's the only sniper combat battlecruiser. That also makes it difficult to offer up comparisons but I still don't see how you guys don't see the glaring error here. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 18:38:31 - [27] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: It's almost like you have to undock and fly the ships to see how they perform, rather than simply reading the description. I have to wonder if anyone posting here has ever flown a Ferox -OR- put it into EFT. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 1005	Posted - 2016.01.25 21:12:34 - [28] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: It's almost like you have to undock and fly the ships to see how they perform, rather than simply reading the description. I have to wonder if anyone posting here has ever flown a Ferox -OR- put it into EFT. Serendipity Lost wrote: Reaver, you make me sad. I thought your were above this sort of thing. Shame on you. I'm going to go sit in a corner and try to come to terms with this thread. You've betrayed us all. I'm having a really hard time understanding what you guys don't get about this. I even made a chart showing damage projection on all ammo types, Brutix vs Ferox. CHART Blue/green is Brutix with rails, red/orange is Ferox with rails. Higher dots are higher DPS values, and dots further to the right have further range. All non-pirate ammo types are shown. As you can clearly see, the Ferox's damage projection is very similar to the Brutix's damage projection in the ranges where they meet. Naturally, the Ferox can hit longer ranges but with lower DPS, while the Brutix can hit higher DPS but with shorter ranges. They're roughly equivalent. But contrary to what you guys keep saying about the Ferox having some magical unseen defensive powers it doesn't actually have, the Brutix actually does have much better tank than the Ferox. In some ways, the Brutix is a better sniper than the Ferox, and it'll do especially well when the sniper fleet gets a brawler fleet dropped on it. Drop a brawler fleet on Feroxes and they're done for. They should at least be good at their only niche. edit: I should clarify that a Brutix has better defense than a Ferox in some situations, primarily when used for solo or small gang operations. A fleet-fit Brutix has about the same defense as a fleet-fit Ferox. The Ferox does not, at any point, have better defense than a Brutix. Exactly what fit are you using for the Brutix? Because that fit on page one with the XL-ASBs is pretty valid, and very tanky. Would easily out tank a dual-rep Brutix.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2891	Posted - 2016.01.25 21:23:42 - [29] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Exactly what fit are you using for the Brutix? Because that fit on page one with the XL-ASBs is pretty valid, and very tanky. Would easily out tank a dual-rep Brutix. Shield boosters have more raw restored HP amount than armor repairers. Are you trying to suggest that armor repairers are underpowered? Because if not, then the Brutix is a better rep-tanker than the Ferox, end of story. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2136	Posted - 2016.01.26 07:56:39 - [30] - Quote end of the day, your suggested change isn't going to happen. Caldari hybrid ships get more range and gallante get higher damage, as it has always been. Fly the brutix if you feel it's the better ship better. The wishlist is pretty much complete...

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