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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7150
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Posted - 2016.01.31 13:15:09 -
[91] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Which is exactly the same as any other P2W game. No Lucas, it's not, but that's some nice bait. It's not bait, it's a fact. P2W is never a payment for actual victory. I don't know of a single game where you pay real money and get a button that simply makes you win. What I do know of is many games with give you better gear and more resources which give you an advantage, neither of which will do you any good if you are terrible at the game. Further, a new player buying items will still often be behind non-paying veterans but ahead of people that start alongside them but don't pay. This is no different.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
291
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Posted - 2016.01.31 13:25:51 -
[92] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Which is exactly the same as any other P2W game. No Lucas, it's not, but that's some nice bait. It's not bait, it's a fact. P2W is never a payment for actual victory. I don't know of a single game where you pay real money and get a button that simply makes you win. What I do know of is many games with give you better gear and more resources which give you an advantage, neither of which will do you any good if you are terrible at the game. Further, a new player buying items will still often be behind non-paying veterans but ahead of people that start alongside them but don't pay. This is no different.
In reference to the underlined and bolded part.
This is from an earlier post of mine
Quote: This is an extract from the Urban Dictionary
'Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced...'
Those examples you give are P2W, sp packets only save you time, they are an advantage but not P2W. |
Arthur Hannigen
30
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Posted - 2016.01.31 13:48:46 -
[93] - Quote
1. Urban Dictionary? Seriously?
2. Two players being equally the same in (age, skill, etc), you don't see how the one purchasing SP's will have a greater advantage over the one that doesn't? |
Altair Taurus
37
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Posted - 2016.01.31 13:54:53 -
[94] - Quote
let's face reality here - some old nerds are crying because they are narked at CCP wanting to earn some money and they hate new reality where new players can reach their SP level quite quickly. That's their own problem. EVE Online and players community will move forward regardless of stupid of arguments of those haters. EVE Online won't be over in next months. At best those haters will leave the game beaten-up in PvP by large numbers of SP boosted "scrubs". Anyway they can always try MOBA or similar game. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7154
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Posted - 2016.01.31 13:59:40 -
[95] - Quote
Yes, as Arthur pointed out, urban dictionary is laughable. It's not exactly a quality source of information.
Avvy wrote:Those examples you give are P2W, sp packets only save you time, they are an advantage but not P2W. What game can you pay to win? Like literally win. So a game where I can pay some cash, and even if I'm completely terrible at the game and can't even figure out basic movement controls, I can win anyway from the "I win" button I bought.
P2W is always pay for advantage in reality. What that urban dictionary entry is talking about is different types of advantage, between buying something unique which you can only get for cash, vs paying to skip content and get something you can get for free but without waiting. Either way it's an advantage over someone that started in the same situation but didn't pay. Not that you claim my examples are P2W, so why is buying resources in a game P2W, but buying SP - which is a resource - isn't?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1073
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Posted - 2016.01.31 14:04:16 -
[96] - Quote
Will trading SP ruin the game?
I don't know. I'm no longer convinced it will. But I'm certainly not convinced it won't. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7154
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:05:38 -
[97] - Quote
Altair Taurus wrote:Let's face reality here - some old-timers are crying because they are narked at CCP wanting to earn some money and they hate new reality where new players can reach their SP level quite quickly. That's their own problem! EVE Online and players community will move forward regardless of stupid arguments presented by those haters. EVE Online won't be over in the next months. At best those haters will leave the game beaten-up in PvP by large numbers of SP boosted "scrubs". Anyway they can always try MOBA games. I'm not crying at anything, I'm fully embracing the fact that CCP are chucking microtrans into the game like mad, I'm just not pretending it isn't what it is or trying to find ways to excuse it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
292
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:07:50 -
[98] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Yes, as Arthur pointed out, urban dictionary is laughable. It's not exactly a quality source of information. Avvy wrote:Those examples you give are P2W, sp packets only save you time, they are an advantage but not P2W. What game can you pay to win? Like literally win. So a game where I can pay some cash, and even if I'm completely terrible at the game and can't even figure out basic movement controls, I can win anyway from the "I win" button I bought. P2W is always pay for advantage in reality. What that urban dictionary entry is talking about is different types of advantage, between buying something unique which you can only get for cash, vs paying to skip content and get something you can get for free but without waiting. Either way it's an advantage over someone that started in the same situation but didn't pay. Not that you claim my examples are P2W, so why is buying resources in a game P2W, but buying SP - which is a resource - isn't?
If you look at it the way you are the game would already be P2W even without the addition of skill packets. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2359
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Posted - 2016.01.31 14:08:58 -
[99] - Quote
just think though.
Noob buys sp the possibilites are endless.
highsec: noobs can now be in a hulk or t2 mining ship so you mining corps can swindle more tax from players and make more money. lowsec: more battleship pilots, t3, and ahac pilots. nullsec: same as lowsec sov: more monkey ratters and f1 pushers making sov more money from taxes and bigger blobs.
I dont see it as an issue it gives new players the chance to be more relevant in the game, allbeit they will die alot but it does make the game much more fun when you can actually fly main doctrine ships instead of ewar or frigates for months on end.
CCP are going to make a ton of money from this and it will only help the developmen of the game
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
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Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7155
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Posted - 2016.01.31 14:12:40 -
[100] - Quote
Avvy wrote:If you look at it the way you are the game would already be P2W even without the addition of skill packets. Indeed it is, this is just adding another aspect to that, making it "more P2W" if you will.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
121
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Posted - 2016.01.31 14:12:48 -
[101] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Yes, as Arthur pointed out, urban dictionary is laughable. It's not exactly a quality source of information. Avvy wrote:Those examples you give are P2W, sp packets only save you time, they are an advantage but not P2W. What game can you pay to win? Like literally win. So a game where I can pay some cash, and even if I'm completely terrible at the game and can't even figure out basic movement controls, I can win anyway from the "I win" button I bought. P2W is always pay for advantage in reality. What that urban dictionary entry is talking about is different types of advantage, between buying something unique which you can only get for cash, vs paying to skip content and get something you can get for free but without waiting. Either way it's an advantage over someone that started in the same situation but didn't pay. Not that you claim my examples are P2W, so why is buying resources in a game P2W, but buying SP - which is a resource - isn't?
The usual definition of pay2win is buying an advantage you could not get without paying. Which is why the new EVE model is not pay2win, in a strict sense. You can stilll get to the same point, by waiting. And let us not forget that the veterans are already there right now. Due to EVE skill hard caps people who buy SP will not be better off than the veterans who already has most of all the skills divided on 3-4 alts.
My definition of pay2win is build on this article from IGN discussing free2play vs pay2win.
The interesting part from the IGN article: " The much maligned GÇÿpay to winGÇÖ label in the West, where users can only really advance by handing over money, is pretty much a standard for distribution and financial gain in China. "
If you can show another definition that you did not make up yourself, I would love to see it.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
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Arthur Hannigen
30
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Posted - 2016.01.31 14:17:08 -
[102] - Quote
Altair Taurus wrote:Let's face reality here - some old-timers are crying because they are narked at CCP wanting to earn some money and they hate new reality where new players can reach their SP level quite quickly. That's their own problem! EVE Online and players community will move forward regardless of stupid arguments presented by those haters. EVE Online won't be over in the next months. At best those haters will leave the game beaten-up in PvP by large numbers of SP boosted "scrubs". Anyway they can always try MOBA games. I can't speak for everyone else. But in my opinion, I think CCP does not have much of a choice than to go the P2W way. I think that as of late CCP has made it crystal clear it is resolute in its intent to keep Eve a niche game meant only for the few. So at that point, what choices are there to keep it "successful" and relevant?
If you have any better ideas on how to keep a game afloat without new blood, by all means please share. Like Lucas, I say "just do it". But to see some convincing themselves this is not P2W is giving me a few chuckles. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
292
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:22:32 -
[103] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Avvy wrote:If you look at it the way you are the game would already be P2W even without the addition of skill packets. Indeed it is, this is just adding another aspect to that, making it "more P2W" if you will.
Then it doesn't matter.
If I was to accept your definition of P2W, which I don't.
PLEX would be P2W.
A character from the bazaar would be P2W
A second account would be P2W.
Using your definition, how many accounts do you have. Have you paid to win? |
W33b3l
The Scope Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:30:25 -
[104] - Quote
Regardless of all the arguing over if it's good or bad. I don't like it.
I don't like the fact that it's going to remove part of the game for some people that was there before. Its not a needed mechanic.
I'm not up in arms about it, I just don't like the idea.
If they are going to do this, they should list the amount of SP a character has where other players can see it when they click the info button on them. That way you have some clue to what is going on when you see a week old character in a BS. Gauging targets and all that. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7155
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:31:44 -
[105] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:The usual definition of pay2win is buying an advantage you could not get without paying. Which is why the new EVE model is not pay2win, in a strict sense. You can stilll get to the same point, by waiting. And let us not forget that the veterans are already there right now. Due to EVE skill hard caps people who buy SP will not be better off than the veterans who already has most of all the skills divided on 3-4 alts. My definition of pay2win is build on this article from IGN discussing free2play vs pay2win. The interesting part from the IGN article: " The much maligned GÇÿpay to winGÇÖ label in the West, where users can only really advance by handing over money, is pretty much a standard for distribution and financial gain in China. " If you can show another definition that you did not make up yourself, I would love to see it. There isn't really a solid definition, since it's simply a derogatory term for games that allow microtransactions, like they say on engadget, "The problem is that there is no agreed-upon definition of pay-to-win. "Convenience" items are a good case in point. Some folks don't mind them, while others point out that they can make your character more powerful in less time, depending on the system."
But consider games from companies like Zynga, like Farmville. These are pretty much all classed as pay to win games by most people, yet all (or at least most) of them can be played for free and you can advance without playing, albeit much much slower.
Also, going by the overly broad IGN definition you've given above, all paid games are pay to win, since you can't progress in the game unless you are able to play it, and you aren't able to play it (legally) without paying. For subscription MMOs, paying the subscription is a prerequisite for progression.
Of course though a newbie paying cash isn't going to suddenly be better than a veteran with several years of playtime, just like someone paying a few hundred dollars into Farmville won't suddenly have a bigger farm than a free to play player who's been playing for years. What they will have though is an advantage over other people starting at the same time who don't pay, and a closer to level playing field with veterans.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Altair Taurus
38
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Posted - 2016.01.31 14:33:38 -
[106] - Quote
Once again - let's face reality: EVE is quite old game introduced in completely different market environment. Think a bit how MMO games business model looks today:
- we have many examples of quite successful F2P games with additional extra charges (WoT, WT) - games that were based on paid subscriptions are moving away from this model (TESO) - introduction of microtransacrions is widespread (i.e. WOW Tokens and instant max. level instant boost)
I don't know how CCP could escape this trend. This trend also creates new players behaviors thus new players are more and more used to new MMO reality. They want quick in-game progress and they are willing to pay for this. EVE Online with its current mechanic is not newbie friendly game and this is one of primary reasons of low player retention, shrinking playerbase and (possibly) lower CCP incomes. That's why CCP has to react accordingly. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7155
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:35:42 -
[107] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Then it doesn't matter.
If I was to accept your definition of P2W, which I don't. Yeah, I get that, you're only accepting it as pay to win if you can pay for an item which doesn't exist to anyone else, yet you've stated yourself that paying players will now be able to get more of an advantage that the previously available paid advantage. So effectively we agree on everything except the terminology, so let's simply call it "pay for advantage", and at the same time point out that most games called as "P2W" by the general public should also be reclassified as "pay for advantage".
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
121
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:38:40 -
[108] - Quote
W33b3l wrote:Regardless of all the arguing over if it's good or bad. I don't like it.
I don't like the fact that it's going to remove part of the game for some people that was there before. Its not a needed mechanic.
I'm not up in arms about it, I just don't like the idea.
If they are going to do this, they should list the amount of SP a character has where other players can see it when they click the info button on them. That way you have some clue to what is going on when you see a week old character in a BS. Gauging targets and all that. I understand your point. I also understand why CCP won't do that. Suggesting this would lead to that people who are against it could pick out people who used SP, like a shaming process. I understand why the people against SP trading would do this. They want to limit the amount of people using SP packets, as they think it is a bad mechanic. CCP did implement this to earn more money, so I am pretty sure they have no interest giving a small minority of the community the tools to decrease their newly implemented monetization plat form. Just my opinion.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
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Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21082
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:46:52 -
[109] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:W33b3l wrote:Regardless of all the arguing over if it's good or bad. I don't like it.
I don't like the fact that it's going to remove part of the game for some people that was there before. Its not a needed mechanic.
I'm not up in arms about it, I just don't like the idea.
If they are going to do this, they should list the amount of SP a character has where other players can see it when they click the info button on them. That way you have some clue to what is going on when you see a week old character in a BS. Gauging targets and all that. I understand your point. I also understand why CCP won't do that. Suggesting this would lead to that people who are against it could pick out people who used SP, like a shaming process. I understand why the people against SP trading would do this. They want to limit the amount of people using SP packets, as they think it is a bad mechanic. CCP did implement this to earn more money, so I am pretty sure they have no interest giving a small minority of the community the tools to decrease their newly implemented monetization plat form. Just my opinion. One of the reasons most people were OK with the Bazaar, was due to it's limitations. You couldn't choose the name, had to have what you deemed acceptable in regards to the skill sheet and if someone took the time to look, had a I've bought this character post to indicate originality.
Now, not so much. In fact, not at all.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
176
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:52:22 -
[110] - Quote
Altair Taurus wrote:Once again - let's face reality: EVE is quite old game introduced in completely different market environment. Think a bit how MMO business model looks today:
- we have many examples of quite successful F2P games with additional extra charges included (WoT, WT) - games that were based on paid subscriptions are moving away from this model (TESO) - an introduction of microtransactions is widespread (i.e. WOW Tokens and max. level instant boost)
I don't know how CCP could escape this trend. This trend also creates new players habits thus new players are more and more used to new MMO reality. They want quick in-game progress and they are willing to pay for that. They do not want to wait months to be able to fly decent ships effectively. So EVE Online with its current SP mechanic is not newbie friendly game and this is one of primary reasons of low retention, shrinking playerbase and (possibly) lower CCP incomes. That's why CCP has to react accordingly.
Maybe I'm an old timer (just pretend for this analogy) but I like going to a nice restaurant and ordering a well prepared steak, it takes some time for the chef to make it just the way I like but this is the only restaurant in town that makes it how I like. McDonalds and Starbucks are popping up all over the place and making more money than my favourite restaurant, but all they offer is quick, sugary, fatty food that tastes nice but leaves you feeling bad afterwards. Should the nice restaurant say, "well we are a steak place and we have regular paying customers who will stick with us because they like their steaks, but we're going to go after more profit and turn into a fast-food joint" ?
If they do are they really going to steal McDonalds crowd of customers? No. Are they going to lose the customers they do have who just want a nice steak? Yes. I personally don't see why we should lower the bar for people who don't want to play the game that we are all playing and enjoying.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
292
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 14:53:24 -
[111] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Avvy wrote:Then it doesn't matter.
If I was to accept your definition of P2W, which I don't. Yeah, I get that, you're only accepting it as pay to win if you can pay for an item which doesn't exist to anyone else, yet you've stated yourself that paying players will now be able to get more of an advantage that the previously available paid advantage. So effectively we agree on everything except the terminology, so let's simply call it "pay for advantage", and at the same time point out that most games called as "P2W" by the general public should also be reclassified as "pay for advantage".
Like a lot of gaming terms they're supposed to distinguish between different types of games. Not always to be taken literally. Which does tend to cause a lot of debate over what the terms actually mean.
But if the game was already P2W, then we shouldn't be looking at a P2W reason for not adding sp packets. We should just be looking at will it benefit the game or not.
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J'Poll
Perkone Caldari State
6274
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Posted - 2016.01.31 14:57:00 -
[112] - Quote
Will Buying Skill Points Ruin The Game?
Let me counter question:
Has buying characters from the bazaar ruined the game?
As in a sense, it's just the same thing, only you can now tailor make your character and pick your own name.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21082
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Posted - 2016.01.31 15:04:24 -
[113] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Will Buying Skill Points Ruin The Game?
Let me counter question:
Has buying characters from the bazaar ruined the game?
As in a sense, it's just the same thing, only you can now tailor make your character and pick your own name. I love how when someone says it's the same as the bazaar, they seems to always qualify it with 'in a sense' or 'almost', or 'nearly' or 'except that'.
Another example.
Stitch Kaneland wrote:The SP trading thing is no different than the character bazaar that has been around for years. Except instead of trading full characters, you can just buy/sell the SP.
I almost won the lottery once.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
123
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Posted - 2016.01.31 15:10:07 -
[114] - Quote
Mag's wrote:sero Hita wrote:W33b3l wrote:Regardless of all the arguing over if it's good or bad. I don't like it.
I don't like the fact that it's going to remove part of the game for some people that was there before. Its not a needed mechanic.
I'm not up in arms about it, I just don't like the idea.
If they are going to do this, they should list the amount of SP a character has where other players can see it when they click the info button on them. That way you have some clue to what is going on when you see a week old character in a BS. Gauging targets and all that. I understand your point. I also understand why CCP won't do that. Suggesting this would lead to that people who are against it could pick out people who used SP, like a shaming process. I understand why the people against SP trading would do this. They want to limit the amount of people using SP packets, as they think it is a bad mechanic. CCP did implement this to earn more money, so I am pretty sure they have no interest giving a small minority of the community the tools to decrease their newly implemented monetization plat form. Just my opinion. One of the reasons most people were OK with the Bazaar, was due to it's limitations. You couldn't choose the name, had to have what you deemed acceptable in regards to the skill sheet and if someone took the time to look, had a I've bought this character post to indicate originality. Now, not so much. In fact, not at all.
True, no limitations but what the market puts on the SP packets. I am okay with this though. If one is so inclined that they don't want to buy SP packets, I still think they can compete though. EVE has so many game play mechanisms that one can use to counter better skills. An example: I earn my ISK by supplying a small tradehub, that no one else wants to seed. I earn decent enough to pvp. That people can buy SP and get better trade skills than me will not change that. They will still not go through the hassle to seed a station in the middle of no where. In PVP if someone flies a better ship, with better skills I call in reinforcements and blop the sun out of him. Regardless if he is a veteran or just bought the exp. That is the beauty of EVE with some effort, there will always be a place in space where you can be king, even if others have higher SP. That is why I am not too worried.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
292
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Posted - 2016.01.31 15:22:16 -
[115] - Quote
sero Hita wrote: True, no limitations but what the market puts on the SP packets.
The limitations will be their cost and the declining benefit. But there should also be a point where they no longer work.
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Trader20
Hedion University Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2016.01.31 15:40:58 -
[116] - Quote
Avvy wrote:sero Hita wrote: True, no limitations but what the market puts on the SP packets.
The limitations will be their cost and the declining benefit. But there should also be a point where they no longer work.
aka diminishing returns |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
124
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Posted - 2016.01.31 15:49:21 -
[117] - Quote
Avvy wrote:sero Hita wrote: True, no limitations but what the market puts on the SP packets.
The limitations will be their cost and the declining benefit. But there should also be a point where they no longer work. People talk about this like it is a pixel ship that should be balanced. It is not though. It is to increase the income of CCP, in a relatively harmless way imo. I am sure they have investors breathing down their necks after the last few years failed projects. They could have come up with something worse, or have closed the game for example.
You also don't balance income streams negatively. I understand your point, but have to say that your expectation for them to put restrictions on something they have to live from, is naive. I also don't see why they should.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
292
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Posted - 2016.01.31 15:52:40 -
[118] - Quote
Trader20 wrote:Avvy wrote:sero Hita wrote: True, no limitations but what the market puts on the SP packets.
The limitations will be their cost and the declining benefit. But there should also be a point where they no longer work. aka diminishing returns
Yeah, except that with diminishing returns you don't know where someone will deem them not worth the cost. Diminishing returns with a cut-off point I think would be better. It might mean the with diminishing returns you won't get to the cut-off point, but it doesn't hurt to have one. |
Minkki
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2016.01.31 15:56:06 -
[119] - Quote
I can buy tons of plexes, go to character bazaar, buy a titan pilot, go to sell forums, buy a titan and by Friday, I am flying titan after one week in EVE. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
124
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Posted - 2016.01.31 15:59:40 -
[120] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
Yeah, except that with diminishing returns you don't know where someone will deem them not worth the cost. Diminishing returns with a cut-off point I think would be better. It might mean that with diminishing returns you won't get to the cut-off point, but it doesn't hurt to have one.
It also doesn't help to have a cut-off. From CCPs point of view, there is no reason to implement this. I am certain if they did that the forums would be full of vets complaining about why they get no cookies? From a business point of view your suggestion makes no sense, and it seems like something few would care for.
edit. they even increased the amount of SP vets get from the injectors. This was due to complaints from the community.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
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