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What is wrong with the current Subscription Process when using C/C

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MrTriggerHappy Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:08:00 - [31] Ok you pay by credit card.. have you taken into account that your credit card company also has their own exchange rate which may or may not be better than what the web is telling you. Another factor to consider is are they charging you for the GBP to Euro conversion?!? The Image hoster removed my siggy.. it'll be back on the weekend!! My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:12:00 - [32] The whole VAT / TAX thing is beyond me, to be honest. The best idea is to contact your local Inland Revenue or Customs office if you have any questions. All i know is that there is an EU law that says we have to charge VAT for the subscriptions to our game (also applies to other companies / mmos) ________________________________ ~Jiekon ~CCP QA Known Issues Page The LogServer Easy Steps To Bug Reporting

Kappas. Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:13:00 - [33] Why complain about it when you can just buy game time cards cheaper, like you said in your original post. Just switch payment methods and hey presto! Your problem is solved and you are paying less!

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:13:00 - [34] Originally by: Curver The point of the thread is not to discuss VAT. it is to discuss the BASE price of paying in the US and UK. Since Eurors pay a higher base price before any additions. The base price in euros is with VAT Added i believe. which is why it is higher. ________________________________ ~Jiekon ~CCP QA Known Issues Page The LogServer Easy Steps To Bug Reporting

Soon Tzu	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:19:00 - [35] Originally by: Curver But how to know when you have to pay vat, quoting from direct.gov.uk: "Businesses with annual sales below ú61,000 don't have to register for (and therefore charge) VAT. If they don't, the price you pay for their goods or services may be cheaper than if you bought the same goods or services from a VAT-registered supplier." Does this company sell over ú61000 a year? how am i ment to know? -------------------------- Please remember i am just arguing a point of view, not that i have done this it is that i have noticed the different in price and foudn it strange we are paying ú5 more then the US. you've confused an internal regulation with international. A store in Iceland is not subject to UK laws and regulations regarding sales and tax. So they do not have to report anything to your governing tax entity (unless it is in a formal trade agreement, but on low commerce levels, I have never heard of one) as to the EU and $ conversion, if your currency is in EU, then the $ value of the item has to be converted, then taken from your bank/cc account as EU currency, add your VAT charge, then you should still be paying the same on your end when all is done. i.e...the only real way to get it cheaper, is to evade the tax on the item that your country says you have to pay.
Siri Blue Gallente Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:33:00 - [36] Edited by: Siri Blue on 31/01/2007 15:30:31 I somehow doubt that there is no tax on GTCs in the US... In the end that means due to the low $ value atm CCP is losing money on GTCs cause they do their business in Euros I guess... When the Euro-$ relation was 1:1 and a GTC cost 14.99$ and a 3 month subscription 14.99Ç then CCP made 14 Euro 99 from each...(substracting any taxes and stuff of course) Now that the Euro-$ relation is 1-1.3 CCP makes 14.99 Ç of the subscription while only making 11.53Ç off the GTC (again substracting any taxes from both) See the point everyone?
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:44:00 - [37] Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:45:09 Originally by: Jiekon Originally by: Curver The point of the thread is not to discuss VAT. it is to discuss the BASE price of paying in the US and UK. Since Eurors pay a higher base price before any additions. The base price in euros is with VAT Added i believe. which is why it is higher. It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing. Math time! Euros: 15.00 EUR = 9.96457 GBP (we'll call this 10 GBP). Dollars: 15.00 USD = 7.67133 GBP (we'll call this 7.5 GBP). So, you're saying the Euro's include VAT? 7.5 * 17.5% VAT = 8.8125 (we'll call this 9 GBP). So we're being charged even more on top of VAT, even if it was due to it. This has been asked before, and it's simply a case of it costing more for us, not VAT. We've basicly been paying ú12 ($23.5) extra per year, if you include the VAT calculations, without, we pay roughly ú30($59) more per year. There have been several posts like this over the course of 2006, and this is the first of 2007 I believe. It would be nice if CCP got their act together over this and actually gave us something back for a bit. Americans did actually pay a little bit more than us for a year, but it was nothing to this magnitude. I hope we get Vivox free or something :( --- Cache Clearer
Jernau Gurgeh Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Grez It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing. The actual service is provided from within the EU though. There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:55:00 - [39] Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:52:27 Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh Originally by: Grez It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing. The actual service is provided from within the EU though. The company is run from Iceland, and is immune to tax laws from the UK though (I don't know about other countries). You cannot tax bandwidth, and even if you were correct, everyone, including US residents, should have to pay the tax. --- Cache Clearer
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:04:00 - [40] Edited by: Patch86 on 31/01/2007 16:04:00 Originally by: Grez Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:52:27 Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh Originally by: Grez It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing. The actual service is provided from within the EU though. The company is run from Iceland, and is immune to tax laws from the UK though (I don't know about other countries). You cannot tax bandwidth, and even if you were correct, everyone, including US residents, should have to pay the tax. While technically true, Iceland still pays EU VAT, and their rate of VAT is a fair chunk higher than the UK rate. So "immunity" might be a bit of a misnomer EDIT: To clarify, Iceland is a member of the EEA, not the EU proper. They still pay EU VAT, though, at a rate of 24.5% standard (compare to the UK's 17.5% standard). See here, here and here for details. -----------------------------------------------

Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:16:00 - [41] Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 16:13:29 Originally by: Patch86 Edited by: Patch86 on 31/01/2007 16:04:00 Originally by: Grez Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:52:27 Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh Originally by: Grez It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing. The actual service is provided from within the EU though. The company is run from Iceland, and is immune to tax laws from the UK though (I don't know about other countries). You cannot tax bandwidth, and even if you were correct, everyone, including US residents, should have to pay the tax. While technically true, Iceland still pays EU VAT, and their rate of VAT is a fair chunk higher than the UK rate. So "immunity" might be a bit of a misnomer EDIT: To clarify, Iceland is a member of the EEA, not the EU proper. They still pay EU VAT, though, at a rate of 24.5% standard (compare to the UK's 17.5% standard). See here, here and here for details. If that's right, then shouldn't the US be paying it too? (Note: 7.5 GBP * 24.5% comes too 9.3 GPB, closer to the original price difference, but still not completely correct). --- Cache Clearer
Salusa VC TunDraGon	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:24:00 - [42] Here is a summary of the VAT situation for UK subscribers: Probably applies to all EU as well. Any company (CCP) providing a service, classified as a ætaxable supplyÆ in the EU is required to charge VAT at the prevailing rate of the country in which the service is provided. In the UK this is 17.5%.. Certain categories of æsuppliesÆ are exempt or more accurately æzero ratedÆ for VAT. A subscription service for an MMO is obviously not one of them. If your annual turnover is over ú61k you HAVE to register for VAT. We can all assume that CCP has an annual turnover of UK subscriptions in excess of ú61k  Therefore CCP have no choice but to charge VAT on UK subscriptions. They donÆt get to keep the VAT as this all has to paid back to HM Customs and Excise, normally on a quarterly basis. When CCP sell time codes to the likes of Shattered Crystal, they do not have charge them VAT as they are ôexportingö outside of the EU. SC being resellers based in the USA is a grey area. Technically they should be charging VAT at whatever the country rate is in which they sell to.
Szprinkoth Sponsz ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:28:00 - [43] Originally by: Grez If that's right, then shouldn't the US be paying it too? (Note: 7.5 GBP * 24.5% comes too 9.3 GPB, closer to the original price difference, but still not completely correct). The US isn't part of any European organisation, and frankly, why should it be?
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:28:00 - [44] Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 16:25:46 Originally by: Salusa VC VAT stuff Either way, the numbers don't crunch properly. --- Cache Clearer
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:28:00 - [45] /raises American flag. What's all this fuss about again? ~~~~~~~~~ Hey Gai. Bak Off Coz Ai Bang Yu Hawd. K Gai?
Cerwyn Taraman Minmatar Phoenix Tech Industries Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:30:00 - [46] Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 31/01/2007 16:27:12 IANATL (I am not a tax lawyer), however, to clear up a few things for the UK / Europe people about how taxes are done here. Over in Europe you have a really high VAT of like 18% or more which covers a lot of social services such as medical care for your people etc (we have no government run healthcare for everyone, everything is privatized here except for medicare which is for low-income/retirees on Social Security). Your VAT is almost always included in prices you see, something that is in sharp contrast to the United States where prices are NEVER advertised with the tax included. The tax is always added during the checkout process. Now, in this day and age with the internet, the U.S. has traditionally made the Internet a tax-free zone (federal rules) such that goods and services you buy on the internet are not taxed. However, many states are trying to get a hold of some of this lost revenue by requiring the people living in their state, to A) Charge tax for internet goods being sold in a state, that are being shipped TO that same state and B) report as taxable all goods bought from other states that you bought and had mailed to you and didn't pay tax on at the time of purchase. North Carolina where I live is one of those states that wants everyone to basically at the end of the year say "I bought $5000 worth of stuff from Amazon.Com and they didn't charge me tax, so here is my 7% sales tax on $5000 worth of stuff". Now, hardly anyone actually fills this out correctly, but that is another issue entirely. So basically if you see a GTC being sold in the U.S., that price is without tax and it might can be argued that a "subscription" to a non-tangible good is considered a service which is almost always tax-free here in the U.S. If you say it is not a service but you are instead buying the "Card" itself that the code is printed on, we are reponsible for filling out the taxes later per our State laws but the seller itself is not required to collect it unless the customer is located in the same state as the seller. Hope that makes some sense. So yeah, exchange rates make it seem like you are getting hosed but thats not always the case as U.S. pays ZERO taxes on MMO subscriptions at the moment which is likely to change in the near future.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz Originally by: Grez If that's right, then shouldn't the US be paying it too? (Note: 7.5 GBP * 24.5% comes too 9.3 GPB, closer to the original price difference, but still not completely correct). The US isn't part of any European organisation, and frankly, why should it be? ...O'er the laaaaaand of thaaaaaaaaa freeeeeeeee and theee hooooooomeeeee offff thaaaaaa brrrrraaaaaaaaavvvvvveeeeeee ~~~~~~~~~ Hey Gai. Bak Off Coz Ai Bang Yu Hawd. K Gai?
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:38:00 - [48] Most countries have a minimum amount b4 you need to actually declare anything. So if you for instance order a 30 day GTC for below that amount you'd be fine. Keep in mind that what you pay for transportation is ADDED to the value of the goods. Strange but true.
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 - [49] Ok ok ok.. ignore Tax.. Tax has nothing to do with the ú2 difference.. i explained the reason in my previous post. Here we go again with a more "In-depth" discussion... Overseas charges includes a currency conversion (usually 2.75 per cent) on all transactions; up to ú2 at an ATM; a higher "cash advance" annual percentage rate (APR) for using a card at the cashpoint; and something called a "dynamic currency conversion". With the latter charge, consumers are asked if they'd rather settle their bill in sterling. If they say "yes", they will pay at a local exchange rate rather than that on their lender's card - and so end up being ripped off with a higher rate. Keeping a lid on all these charges isn't easy as nearly all lenders apply them, albeit at different levels. I hope that helps... The Image hoster removed my siggy.. it'll be back on the weekend!! My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance
Siri Blue Gallente Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 - [50] So that is why your FEMA thingy in Louisiana went so bad...no taxes to finance it But seriously...interesting to know that there are basically no taxes on internet stuff in the US... AND ONLY 7% taxes on all other stuff you buy?!? Sheesh!!! Me wants too!

LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:54:00 - [51] Originally by: Siri Blue So that is why your FEMA thingy in Louisiana went so bad...no taxes to finance it But seriously...interesting to know that there are basically no taxes on internet stuff in the US... AND ONLY 7% taxes on all other stuff you buy?!? Sheesh!!! Me wants too! Sales tax is 8.7% in my state. But for comparison reasons lets look at this (Interesting this is brought up now). Last night my father sat me down to show me what I will be dealing with in the years to come. In his tax bracket he ends up taking home about 42% of his pay. That is not including 10% property taxes. ~~~~~~~~~ Hey Gai. Bak Off Coz Ai Bang Yu Hawd. K Gai?
Apis Dorsetta	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:14:00 - [52] As far as I know Iceland should not charge their Tax rate to any shipment to the UK as they arent a member of the EU. I work for a company that does quite a bit of shipping all over the world and we charge VAT only to the EU countries. CCP probably however include their tax price in the cost and those that shouldnt be charged the tax just loose out and they make a little extra cash off of them.
Siri Blue Gallente Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:47:00 - [53] Ok, I just noticed Iceland uses the Iceland Krona as a currency... What I would like to know is... Is CCP doing their business in Iceland Krona, Euro or USD? Also...is the Iceland Krona bound in value to the Euro or not? That would clearify a few points
Barthez Thed	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:59:00 - [54] Can i just point out that you do not need to pay VAT on any single item bought outwith the uk of a value of ú18 or less. That is how sites like play.com can get away with cheap prices. (i think there is a bulk limit of ú150 as well, but i believe this is for 1 transaction/ movement of goods) eg: i can buy 8 games for ú18 each, total of ú144 and not pay VAT on it. The rules are very complicated and the holes are being plugged for stores on the channel islands but they still stand on purchases from the states or elsewhere.
Purvy Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:02:00 - [55] Edited by: Purvy on 31/01/2007 18:01:28 From the last time this was discussed, It was said the CCP deals with Kronur (isk) and not the euro. The realtion of Euro to $ does not have to be the same relationship as the euro to isk, and the $ to isk although at the moment is fairly close. In addtion in the US, there are no taxes on internet purchases made out side of your own state, i'm not sure if CCP have to pay the VAT tax for services bought in the US or not.
Siri Blue Gallente Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:06:00 - [56] This way or the other... Currently Euro players yield 30% more Kronas to CCP than US players do! (If there really are additional taxes on Euro gamers (which I highly doubt) then its still 12 or so %!
Soon Tzu	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:33:00 - [57] Originally by: Siri Blue This way or the other... Currently Euro players yield 30% more Kronas to CCP than US players do! (If there really are additional taxes on Euro gamers (which I highly doubt) then its still 12 or so %! no no no no...you keep missing the FACT; $ != EU currency there is an exchange rate, take out the VAT (and any other tax) and do the conversion, and CCP gets the same from any contries currency in relation to Icelands currency. What you pay may seem higher too you do to tax and conversion rates, but to CCP, the charge is all the same. Don't whine to the world that one country is being hosed by ccp vs another...because it isn't happening.
Cammulos Magnetar Ltd	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:44:00 - [58] Good Luck trying to adjust the dollar so we americans pay out as much as the rest of yas. CCP would lose a ton of subs if the price got jacked up to be comporable to the pound and euro. Devs aren't THAT stupid
Siri Blue Gallente Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:46:00 - [59] 1 US Dollar = 68.63094 Iceland Krona 1 Iceland Krona (ISK) = 0.01457 US Dollar (USD) 1 Euro = 88.94982 Iceland Krona 1 Iceland Krona (ISK) = 0.01124 Euro (EUR) 14.99 USD = 1028.78 Iceland Krona 14.99 Euro = 1333.36 Iceland Krona
Viqer Fell Minmatar Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:21:00 - [60] It is worth bearing in mind as well that you are legally bound the UK to pay import tax on GTC's. Now if you order by standard post (the one that loses so many things) then you may be able to avoid it as no-one reports it to Customs however welcome to a nice fine if you don't and they catch you. If you ship by DHL then DHL report it to Customs directly and pay the import duty for you and then bill you adding a surcharge to the cost. So it is somewhat false to think that GTC's are cheaper than a subscription as the overall cost is pretty much the same ( albeit i admit not quite as costly with GTC ) I have spent a lot of money in the eve store so far ú700 or so, so I do have some experience here. PS I ship by DSL always to avoid losing stuff. DHL grass me up to the man every time :/ Click here to visit our site



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