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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Curver
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Posted - 2007.01.31 12:36:00 -
[1]
Hello everyone.
I have recently had to re-sub my game since my game expired when i noticed somthing rather strange.
I personally pay via credit card, directly to ccp. i thougth this was the chespest most effective way but it seems i am mistaken infact it looks as if we are being over charged!
Let me explain:
1 month subscription 14.95 euro
3month subscription 38.85 euro.
Now im british so lets convert this into a currency i can understand:
1month - ú9.91
3months - ú25.75
thanks to xe.com
Ok fair enough, but what are these etc's i hear so much about lets have a look at the first site i come to.. shateredcrystal.com for example.
30 day time code: $14.99
90 time code: $38.99 note this is in dollers.
Nice little conversion to GBP:
30 day code - ú7.68
90 day code - ú19.97
--------------------------------
So what does this mean?
Well lets work out the saving by using gtc's:
30day/1month = ú9.91 - ú7.68 = ú2.23
90 day/3months = ú25.75 - 19.97 = ú5.78
this is how much more you pay if you sub by credit card.
Now it is possible for the prices on te site to be in $ which would mean that everything was the same and all is well but because we are using euros and these gtc sites use dollers the exchange rate makes it that we are being riped off by ú6 every 3 month subscripsion which could pay for an extra months subscription!
Sorry if im wrong but i just work up and my maths is bad lol.
/discuss
-Curver
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente
Anqara Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.31 12:53:00 -
[2]
Think that that is a combination of an outdated exchange rate ($ are worth a lot less compared to ú now), and VAT charged on purchases in the UK.
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Curver
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:02:00 -
[3]
all calculations were done using www.xe.com which in my experence is one of the most relyable upto date curreny converters.
The gtc's were inclusive of VAT, if there is vat added to the credit card cost also it makes the different even more steep!
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Cotton Tail
Rage of Angels
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:09:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Curver
all calculations were done using www.xe.com which in my experence is one of the most relyable upto date curreny converters.
The gtc's were inclusive of VAT, if there is vat added to the credit card cost also it makes the different even more steep!
I believe he meant that CCP prices are using an out-dated exchange rate, one where the dollar is much stronger against the pound than it is now. It's a bit of a tricky situation, CCP would probably rather avoid changing prices every week/month to keep up to date with exchange rates, although it is a bit unfair for the UK atm. Personally I just buy GTCs from US companies from CCPs trusted list on this site, get them instantly and save a few quid.
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Taaketa Frist
PoliCratton Technologies
5th Column
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:25:00 -
[5]
If you live in the UK and have subscribed from the start of 2005 you no longer can choose to pay in Dollars but only in Euros.
This character has been activate since 2004 and still pays dollars.
The Euro is strong than the Dollar against the pound at the moment. (last figure I got from my bank was 1.9 dollars to 1 pound adn 1.4 Euros to 1 pound)
I also do not think we will get to choose dollars again as it makes more business sense for UK people to Euros to CCP as then they do not have to pay a conversion rate to convert their dollars into euros. etc etc. (it also depends on which one is strong against their own economy and really the dollar is playing badly on the international market at the moment)
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Dang nabit |
Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Revelation Space
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:37:00 -
[6]
It's down to exchange rates... At the end of the day, CCP still get the same amount paid to them in Euro's so they are not ripping you off.
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Taaketa Frist
PoliCratton Technologies
5th Column
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
At the end of the day, CCP still get the same amount paid to them in Euro's so they are not ripping you off.
Not strictly true.
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Dang nabit |
Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Revelation Space
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:44:00 -
[8]
If they are paying in Dollars, it is converted to teh required amount of Euro's... same goes for Pound Stirling.
How can it not be the case?
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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:47:00 -
[9]
Well, atm both UK and Euros pay too much OR yanks pay not enough...
silly exchange rates...
In theory either the $ costs per month or the Euro(and pound) costs per month had to vary depending on the exchange rates...
But somehow I doubt this will happen
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Revelation Space
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:51:00 -
[10]
That's fine, I just found it disagreable that someone is accusing CCP of ripping people off when (to me) it's clearly down to Exchange Rates.
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Gunnanmon
Gallente
Forty Two
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:52:00 -
[11]
/me joins in the crying.
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Curver
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:59:00 -
[12]
Well ccp have direct conrol of their subscriptions. Its not like they are powerless.
They must sell GTC's to companies to sell on to us, they should make these companies sell the gtc's at the same cost to subscription or MORE. Prefrably more to discourage GTC sales since im sure it costs CCP more to sell gtc's than to have someone direcly subscribe with credit card. This should be passed onto the users, otherwise why dosnt everyone just buy GTC's off sites, CCP loose money by having to pay them commission.
But instead they allow the UK members to pay increasing prises which is actually more than any other MMO at ú9.91 a month. Im not complainign about cost its just the inequality of not treating all members equal.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Revelation Space
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:04:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rashmika Clavain on 31/01/2007 14:03:22
So you want CCP to allow UK members to pay their sub in Dollars? I don't think that's up to CCP.
If CCP traded in Dollars, you'd still pay in Pound Stirling as the money comes from your bank/credit card in the UK. As such, you still get the discrepancies in payments for differing currencies through the exchange rate.
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Cleric JohnPreston
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:04:00 -
[14]
Get used to it. They dont call Britain the "golden ilse" or "rippoffbritain" for nothing.
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Curver
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:10:00 -
[15]
no i dont expect brittain to expect us to pay in dollers.
I expect them to raise the cost of GTC's or lower the cost of the euro subscription.
I am looking out for CCP's best interest. It is much better for business is people subscribe via direct debit, or directly to them with credit card. Not as much cost is involved.
If this continues the UK population of the game, which is a large ammount, will switch to USA game time codes to save the extra money. We like to save money in the uk. This will incur adidtional costs and loss in profit for ccp.
This profit lost will result in less game updates/ect.
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Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:12:00 -
[16]
this has been explained here somewhere before /me rummages for the post
basically, it boils down to VAT
by buying and importing the timecards from the US you ARE legally obliged (afaik) to pay UK VAT on these. but meh, does anyone actually do this? is there a huge VAT *****down about to take place in the UK? are thousands of eve-gamers about to get wtfpwned by the VAT man?
stay tuned for another episode of "i dont really know but here's some possible reasons"!!11one
____________________
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Originally by: Eximius Josari
If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs?
Overpriced Nos victims.
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Grez
Minmatar
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Curver
no i dont expect brittain to expect us to pay in dollers.
blah blah
I found this out about a 1/2 years ago. Luckily for me, I'm affiliated with shatteredcrystals, so any of TRW's corp members from Europe tend to buy through me, so I get money to keep the site going longer, and it allows them to pay for EVE cheaper.
I completely agree that CCP should pay closer attention to the exchange rates, and adjust subscription fees accordingly.
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Cache Clearer |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:18:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/01/2007 14:14:38
AFAIK ShatteredCrystal prices do not include VAT, so technically you are breaking the law by buying from them.
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/01/2007 14:14:38
AFAIK ShatteredCrystal prices do not include VAT, so technically you are breaking the law by buying from them.
if he doesn't pay the VAT yes
i'm fairly sure just by buying them he isn't breaking any laws 
____________________
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Originally by: Eximius Josari
If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs?
Overpriced Nos victims.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar
Originally by: Dark Shikari
AFAIK ShatteredCrystal prices do not include VAT, so technically you are breaking the law by buying from them.
if he doesn't pay the VAT yes
i'm fairly sure just by buying them he isn't breaking any laws
Who is actually going to pay the VAT if they're not forced to? 
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
GandolftheWhite
Gallente
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:34:00 -
[21]
keep in mind, CCP may not get the most favorable exchange rates with L sterling, as it enters thier banks in either iceland or lord knows where, perhaps cayman islands etc. You claim your being ripped off, but cmon, youve got no idea how thier banking system works.
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Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar
Originally by: Dark Shikari
AFAIK ShatteredCrystal prices do not include VAT, so technically you are breaking the law by buying from them.
if he doesn't pay the VAT yes
i'm fairly sure just by buying them he isn't breaking any laws
Who is actually going to pay the VAT if they're not forced to?
touchT 
____________________
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Originally by: Eximius Josari
If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs?
Overpriced Nos victims.
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Curver
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:38:00 -
[23]
isnt it the responcibility of the retailer to pay VAT?
For example, i walk into my local store, buy a mouse at ú3.00 i dont get to the till and they go you need to pay vat on that. Why because its included in the price, why is it included in the price because the retailer pays it.
Do i have to fill out a form for VAT when purchacing from an online entity? i dont beleive so because its the sellers responcibility, only if i am buying it to sell on to others for a profit should i personally have to pay the VAT. If i am buying for personal use, its the retailers responcibilty to charge VAT. If its not charged, its included in the price.
Thats my understanding of it anyways which i will look into.
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Curver
isnt it the responcibility of the retailer to pay VAT?
For example, i walk into my local store, buy a mouse at ú3.00 i dont get to the till and they go you need to pay vat on that. Why because its included in the price, why is it included in the price because the retailer pays it.
Do i have to fill out a form for VAT when purchacing from an online entity? i dont beleive so because its the sellers responcibility, only if i am buying it to sell on to others for a profit should i personally have to pay the VAT. If i am buying for personal use, its the retailers responcibilty to charge VAT. If its not charged, its included in the price.
Thats my understanding of it anyways which i will look into.
If you buy from a retailer in another country, YOU are responsible for reporting the item and paying the VAT, or you will be guilty of tax evasion.
It is not the responsability of another countries venders to collect on any tax for your country, but YOU are responsible for reporting property purchased and paying tax on said property within your own country.
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Jiekon
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Soon Tzu
Originally by: Curver
isnt it the responcibility of the retailer to pay VAT?
For example, i walk into my local store, buy a mouse at ú3.00 i dont get to the till and they go you need to pay vat on that. Why because its included in the price, why is it included in the price because the retailer pays it.
Do i have to fill out a form for VAT when purchacing from an online entity? i dont beleive so because its the sellers responcibility, only if i am buying it to sell on to others for a profit should i personally have to pay the VAT. If i am buying for personal use, its the retailers responcibilty to charge VAT. If its not charged, its included in the price.
Thats my understanding of it anyways which i will look into.
If you buy from a retailer in another country, YOU are responsible for reporting the item and paying the VAT, or you will be guilty of tax evasion.
It is not the responsability of another countries venders to collect on any tax for your country, but YOU are responsible for reporting property purchased and paying tax on said property within your own country.
Quoted for truth - i got stung buying an eve fleece from the store when i lived in the UK. There was no mention about taxes and then i got a bill from DHL saying they wanted cash off me for paying import dues. It's up to the buyer to declare taxable purchases from another country. Now i don't need to worry about taxes from the eve store \o/
________________________________
~Jiekon
~CCP QA
Known Issues Page
The LogServer
Easy Steps To Bug Reporting |
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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:57:00 -
[26]
Concerning VAT (which would be Zoll or importing tax in Germany I believe):
Well, lets see...
The tax is supposed to be 19% or so? 
Hm...and I'm paying 270 Million ISK per GTC... 
So thats 51.3 million in taxes...
Where do I send that to?
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maarud
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:57:00 -
[27]
Heh, I was smart, I chose the $ option when choosing to pay for my sub, so I pay less than the euro option.
They should just remove the euro option and keep it all $ really.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Curver
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:00:00 -
[28]
But how to know when you have to pay vat, quoting from direct.gov.uk:
"Businesses with annual sales below ú61,000 don't have to register for (and therefore charge) VAT. If they don't, the price you pay for their goods or services may be cheaper than if you bought the same goods or services from a VAT-registered supplier."
Does this company sell over ú61000 a year? how am i ment to know?
--------------------------
Please remember i am just arguing a point of view, not that i have done this it is that i have noticed the different in price and foudn it strange we are paying ú5 more then the US.
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Curver
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:01:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Curver on 31/01/2007 14:58:12
Originally by: maarud
Heh, I was smart, I chose the $ option when choosing to pay for my sub, so I pay less than the euro option.
They should just remove the euro option and keep it all $ really.
/agree would solve all problems to have everyone pay the same ammount in the same currency.. + Vat for each indvidual country.
The point of the thread is not to discuss VAT. it is to discuss the BASE price of paying in the US and UK. Since Eurors pay a higher base price before any additions.
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Iyanah
Minmatar
Mining Munitions and Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Curver
Edited by: Curver on 31/01/2007 13:18:55
Hello everyone.
I have recently had to re-sub my game since my game expired when i noticed somthing rather strange.
I personally pay via credit card, directly to ccp. i thougth this was the chespest most effective way but it seems i am mistaken infact it looks as if we are being over charged!
Let me explain:
1 month subscription 14.95 euro
3month subscription 38.85 euro.
Now im british so lets convert this into a currency i can understand:
1month - ú9.91
3months - ú25.75
thanks to xe.com
Ok fair enough, but what are these etc's i hear so much about lets have a look at the first site i come to.. shateredcrystal.com for example.
30 day time code: $14.99
90 time code: $38.99 note this is in dollers.
Nice little conversion to GBP:
30 day code - ú7.68
90 day code - ú19.97
--------------------------------
So what does this mean?
Well lets work out the saving by using gtc's:
30day/1month = ú9.91 - ú7.68 = ú2.23
90 day/3months = ú25.75 - 19.97 = ú5.78
this is how much more you pay if you sub by credit card.
Now it is possible for the prices on te site to be in $ which would mean that everything was the same and all is well but because we are using euros and these gtc sites use dollers the exchange rate makes it that we are being riped off by ú6 every 3 month subscripsion which could pay for an extra months subscription!
Sorry if im wrong but i just work up and my maths is bad lol.
/discuss
-Curver
well i'm english. i don't want a credit card, thus don't have one to use here, so i have always used GTC's bought from shattered crystal. note that i would never buy a GTC for ISK, nor sell one for ISK, as i don't believe in this lamer tactic.
==========================================
Iy |
MrTriggerHappy
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:08:00 -
[31]
Ok you pay by credit card.. have you taken into account that your credit card company also has their own exchange rate which may or may not be better than what the web is telling you.
Another factor to consider is are they charging you for the GBP to Euro conversion?!?
The Image hoster removed my siggy.. it'll be back on the weekend!!
My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance |
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Jiekon
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:12:00 -
[32]
The whole VAT / TAX thing is beyond me, to be honest. The best idea is to contact your local Inland Revenue or Customs office if you have any questions.
All i know is that there is an EU law that says we have to charge VAT for the subscriptions to our game (also applies to other companies / mmos)
________________________________
~Jiekon
~CCP QA
Known Issues Page
The LogServer
Easy Steps To Bug Reporting |
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Kappas.
Galaxy Punks
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:13:00 -
[33]
Why complain about it when you can just buy game time cards cheaper, like you said in your original post. Just switch payment methods and hey presto! Your problem is solved and you are paying less!
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Jiekon
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:13:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Curver
The point of the thread is not to discuss VAT. it is to discuss the BASE price of paying in the US and UK. Since Eurors pay a higher base price before any additions.
The base price in euros is with VAT Added i believe. which is why it is higher.
________________________________
~Jiekon
~CCP QA
Known Issues Page
The LogServer
Easy Steps To Bug Reporting |
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Curver
But how to know when you have to pay vat, quoting from direct.gov.uk:
"Businesses with annual sales below ú61,000 don't have to register for (and therefore charge) VAT. If they don't, the price you pay for their goods or services may be cheaper than if you bought the same goods or services from a VAT-registered supplier."
Does this company sell over ú61000 a year? how am i ment to know?
--------------------------
Please remember i am just arguing a point of view, not that i have done this it is that i have noticed the different in price and foudn it strange we are paying ú5 more then the US.
you've confused an internal regulation with international.
A store in Iceland is not subject to UK laws and regulations regarding sales and tax. So they do not have to report anything to your governing tax entity (unless it is in a formal trade agreement, but on low commerce levels, I have never heard of one)
as to the EU and $ conversion, if your currency is in EU, then the $ value of the item has to be converted, then taken from your bank/cc account as EU currency, add your VAT charge, then you should still be paying the same on your end when all is done.
i.e...the only real way to get it cheaper, is to evade the tax on the item that your country says you have to pay.
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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:33:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Siri Blue on 31/01/2007 15:30:31
I somehow doubt that there is no tax on GTCs in the US...
In the end that means due to the low $ value atm CCP is losing money on GTCs cause they do their business in Euros I guess...
When the Euro-$ relation was 1:1 and a GTC cost 14.99$ and a 3 month subscription 14.99Ç then CCP made 14 Euro 99 from each...(substracting any taxes and stuff of course)
Now that the Euro-$ relation is 1-1.3 CCP makes 14.99 Ç of the subscription while only making 11.53Ç off the GTC (again substracting any taxes from both)
See the point everyone?
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Grez
Minmatar
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:44:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:45:09
Originally by: Jiekon
Originally by: Curver
The point of the thread is not to discuss VAT. it is to discuss the BASE price of paying in the US and UK. Since Eurors pay a higher base price before any additions.
The base price in euros is with VAT Added i believe. which is why it is higher.
It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing.
Math time!
Euros:
15.00 EUR = 9.96457 GBP (we'll call this 10 GBP).
Dollars:
15.00 USD = 7.67133 GBP (we'll call this 7.5 GBP).
So, you're saying the Euro's include VAT?
7.5 * 17.5% VAT = 8.8125 (we'll call this 9 GBP).
So we're being charged even more on top of VAT, even if it was due to it.
This has been asked before, and it's simply a case of it costing more for us, not VAT.
We've basicly been paying ú12 ($23.5) extra per year, if you include the VAT calculations, without, we pay roughly ú30($59) more per year. There have been several posts like this over the course of 2006, and this is the first of 2007 I believe. It would be nice if CCP got their act together over this and actually gave us something back for a bit. Americans did actually pay a little bit more than us for a year, but it was nothing to this magnitude.
I hope we get Vivox free or something :(
---
Cache Clearer |
Jernau Gurgeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Grez
It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing.
The actual service is provided from within the EU though.
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
Grez
Minmatar
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:55:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:52:27
Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh
Originally by: Grez
It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing.
The actual service is provided from within the EU though.
The company is run from Iceland, and is immune to tax laws from the UK though (I don't know about other countries).
You cannot tax bandwidth, and even if you were correct, everyone, including US residents, should have to pay the tax.
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Cache Clearer |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:04:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Patch86 on 31/01/2007 16:04:00
Originally by: Grez
Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:52:27
Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh
Originally by: Grez
It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing.
The actual service is provided from within the EU though.
The company is run from Iceland, and is immune to tax laws from the UK though (I don't know about other countries).
You cannot tax bandwidth, and even if you were correct, everyone, including US residents, should have to pay the tax.
While technically true, Iceland still pays EU VAT, and their rate of VAT is a fair chunk higher than the UK rate. So "immunity" might be a bit of a misnomer 
EDIT: To clarify, Iceland is a member of the EEA, not the EU proper. They still pay EU VAT, though, at a rate of 24.5% standard (compare to the UK's 17.5% standard). See here, here and here for details.
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Grez
Minmatar
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:16:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 16:13:29
Originally by: Patch86
Edited by: Patch86 on 31/01/2007 16:04:00
Originally by: Grez
Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:52:27
Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh
Originally by: Grez
It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing.
The actual service is provided from within the EU though.
The company is run from Iceland, and is immune to tax laws from the UK though (I don't know about other countries).
You cannot tax bandwidth, and even if you were correct, everyone, including US residents, should have to pay the tax.
While technically true, Iceland still pays EU VAT, and their rate of VAT is a fair chunk higher than the UK rate. So "immunity" might be a bit of a misnomer
EDIT: To clarify, Iceland is a member of the EEA, not the EU proper. They still pay EU VAT, though, at a rate of 24.5% standard (compare to the UK's 17.5% standard). See here, here and here for details.
If that's right, then shouldn't the US be paying it too?
(Note: 7.5 GBP * 24.5% comes too 9.3 GPB, closer to the original price difference, but still not completely correct).
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Cache Clearer |
Salusa VC
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:24:00 -
[42]
Here is a summary of the VAT situation for UK subscribers: Probably applies to all EU as well.
Any company (CCP) providing a service, classified as a ætaxable supplyÆ in the EU is required to charge VAT at the prevailing rate of the country in which the service is provided. In the UK this is 17.5%..
Certain categories of æsuppliesÆ are exempt or more accurately æzero ratedÆ for VAT.
A subscription service for an MMO is obviously not one of them.
If your annual turnover is over ú61k you HAVE to register for VAT. We can all assume that CCP has an annual turnover of UK subscriptions in excess of ú61k
Therefore CCP have no choice but to charge VAT on UK subscriptions. They donÆt get to keep the VAT as this all has to paid back to HM Customs and Excise, normally on a quarterly basis.
When CCP sell time codes to the likes of Shattered Crystal, they do not have charge them VAT as they are ôexportingö outside of the EU.
SC being resellers based in the USA is a grey area. Technically they should be charging VAT at whatever the country rate is in which they sell to.
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Szprinkoth Sponsz
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Grez
If that's right, then shouldn't the US be paying it too?
(Note: 7.5 GBP * 24.5% comes too 9.3 GPB, closer to the original price difference, but still not completely correct).
The US isn't part of any European organisation, and frankly, why should it be?
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Grez
Minmatar
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:28:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 16:25:46
Originally by: Salusa VC
VAT stuff
Either way, the numbers don't crunch properly.
---
Cache Clearer |
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:28:00 -
[45]
/raises American flag.
What's all this fuss about again? 
~~~~~~~~~
Hey Gai. Bak Off Coz Ai Bang Yu Hawd. K Gai? |
Cerwyn Taraman
Minmatar
Phoenix Tech Industries
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:30:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 31/01/2007 16:27:12
IANATL (I am not a tax lawyer), however, to clear up a few things for the UK / Europe people about how taxes are done here. Over in Europe you have a really high VAT of like 18% or more which covers a lot of social services such as medical care for your people etc (we have no government run healthcare for everyone, everything is privatized here except for medicare which is for low-income/retirees on Social Security). Your VAT is almost always included in prices you see, something that is in sharp contrast to the United States where prices are NEVER advertised with the tax included. The tax is always added during the checkout process.
Now, in this day and age with the internet, the U.S. has traditionally made the Internet a tax-free zone (federal rules) such that goods and services you buy on the internet are not taxed. However, many states are trying to get a hold of some of this lost revenue by requiring the people living in their state, to A) Charge tax for internet goods being sold in a state, that are being shipped TO that same state and B) report as taxable all goods bought from other states that you bought and had mailed to you and didn't pay tax on at the time of purchase.
North Carolina where I live is one of those states that wants everyone to basically at the end of the year say "I bought $5000 worth of stuff from Amazon.Com and they didn't charge me tax, so here is my 7% sales tax on $5000 worth of stuff". Now, hardly anyone actually fills this out correctly, but that is another issue entirely.
So basically if you see a GTC being sold in the U.S., that price is without tax and it might can be argued that a "subscription" to a non-tangible good is considered a service which is almost always tax-free here in the U.S. If you say it is not a service but you are instead buying the "Card" itself that the code is printed on, we are reponsible for filling out the taxes later per our State laws but the seller itself is not required to collect it unless the customer is located in the same state as the seller.
Hope that makes some sense. So yeah, exchange rates make it seem like you are getting hosed but thats not always the case as U.S. pays ZERO taxes on MMO subscriptions at the moment which is likely to change in the near future.
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:32:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Originally by: Grez
If that's right, then shouldn't the US be paying it too?
(Note: 7.5 GBP * 24.5% comes too 9.3 GPB, closer to the original price difference, but still not completely correct).
The US isn't part of any European organisation, and frankly, why should it be?
...O'er the laaaaaand of thaaaaaaaaa freeeeeeeee
and theee hooooooomeeeee offff thaaaaaa brrrrraaaaaaaaavvvvvveeeeeee
~~~~~~~~~
Hey Gai. Bak Off Coz Ai Bang Yu Hawd. K Gai? |
Max Hardcase
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:38:00 -
[48]
Most countries have a minimum amount b4 you need to actually declare anything. So if you for instance order a 30 day GTC for below that amount you'd be fine.
Keep in mind that what you pay for transportation is ADDED to the value of the goods. Strange but true.
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MrTriggerHappy
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 -
[49]
Ok ok ok.. ignore Tax.. Tax has nothing to do with the ú2 difference.. i explained the reason in my previous post. Here we go again with a more "In-depth" discussion...
Overseas charges includes a currency conversion (usually 2.75 per cent) on all transactions; up to ú2 at an ATM; a higher "cash advance" annual percentage rate (APR) for using a card at the cashpoint; and something called a "dynamic currency conversion".
With the latter charge, consumers are asked if they'd rather settle their bill in sterling. If they say "yes", they will pay at a local exchange rate rather than that on their lender's card - and so end up being ripped off with a higher rate.
Keeping a lid on all these charges isn't easy as nearly all lenders apply them, albeit at different levels.
I hope that helps...
The Image hoster removed my siggy.. it'll be back on the weekend!!
My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance |
Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 -
[50]
So that is why your FEMA thingy in Louisiana went so bad...no taxes to finance it
But seriously...interesting to know that there are basically no taxes on internet stuff in the US...
AND ONLY 7% taxes on all other stuff you buy?!?
Sheesh!!! Me wants too!
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:54:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Siri Blue
So that is why your FEMA thingy in Louisiana went so bad...no taxes to finance it
But seriously...interesting to know that there are basically no taxes on internet stuff in the US...
AND ONLY 7% taxes on all other stuff you buy?!?
Sheesh!!! Me wants too!
Sales tax is 8.7% in my state.
But for comparison reasons lets look at this (Interesting this is brought up now). Last night my father sat me down to show me what I will be dealing with in the years to come.
In his tax bracket he ends up taking home about 42% of his pay. That is not including 10% property taxes.
~~~~~~~~~
Hey Gai. Bak Off Coz Ai Bang Yu Hawd. K Gai? |
Apis Dorsetta
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 17:14:00 -
[52]
As far as I know Iceland should not charge their Tax rate to any shipment to the UK as they arent a member of the EU. I work for a company that does quite a bit of shipping all over the world and we charge VAT only to the EU countries.
CCP probably however include their tax price in the cost and those that shouldnt be charged the tax just loose out and they make a little extra cash off of them.
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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.01.31 17:47:00 -
[53]
Ok, I just noticed Iceland uses the Iceland Krona as a currency...
What I would like to know is...
Is CCP doing their business in Iceland Krona, Euro or USD?
Also...is the Iceland Krona bound in value to the Euro or not?
That would clearify a few points 
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Barthez Thed
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Posted - 2007.01.31 17:59:00 -
[54]
Can i just point out that you do not need to pay VAT on any single item bought outwith the uk of a value of ú18 or less. That is how sites like play.com can get away with cheap prices.
(i think there is a bulk limit of ú150 as well, but i believe this is for 1 transaction/ movement of goods)
eg: i can buy 8 games for ú18 each, total of ú144 and not pay VAT on it. The rules are very complicated and the holes are being plugged for stores on the channel islands but they still stand on purchases from the states or elsewhere.
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Purvy
Amarr
Umbra Congregatio
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.01.31 18:02:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Purvy on 31/01/2007 18:01:28
From the last time this was discussed, It was said the CCP deals with Kronur (isk) and not the euro. The realtion of Euro to $ does not have to be the same relationship as the euro to isk, and the $ to isk although at the moment is fairly close. In addtion in the US, there are no taxes on internet purchases made out side of your own state, i'm not sure if CCP have to pay the VAT tax for services bought in the US or not.
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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.01.31 18:06:00 -
[56]
This way or the other...
Currently Euro players yield 30% more Kronas to CCP than US players do! (If there really are additional taxes on Euro gamers (which I highly doubt) then its still 12 or so %!
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.01.31 18:33:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Siri Blue
This way or the other...
Currently Euro players yield 30% more Kronas to CCP than US players do! (If there really are additional taxes on Euro gamers (which I highly doubt) then its still 12 or so %!
no no no no...you keep missing the FACT;
$ != EU currency
there is an exchange rate, take out the VAT (and any other tax) and do the conversion, and CCP gets the same from any contries currency in relation to Icelands currency.
What you pay may seem higher too you do to tax and conversion rates, but to CCP, the charge is all the same.
Don't whine to the world that one country is being hosed by ccp vs another...because it isn't happening.
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Cammulos
Magnetar Ltd
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Posted - 2007.01.31 18:44:00 -
[58]
Good Luck trying to adjust the dollar so we americans pay out as much as the rest of yas. CCP would lose a ton of subs if the price got jacked up to be comporable to the pound and euro. Devs aren't THAT stupid
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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.01.31 18:46:00 -
[59]
1 US Dollar = 68.63094 Iceland Krona
1 Iceland Krona (ISK) = 0.01457 US Dollar (USD)
1 Euro = 88.94982 Iceland Krona
1 Iceland Krona (ISK) = 0.01124 Euro (EUR)
14.99 USD = 1028.78 Iceland Krona
14.99 Euro = 1333.36 Iceland Krona
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Viqer Fell
Minmatar
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2007.01.31 19:21:00 -
[60]
It is worth bearing in mind as well that you are legally bound the UK to pay import tax on GTC's.
Now if you order by standard post (the one that loses so many things) then you may be able to avoid it as no-one reports it to Customs however welcome to a nice fine if you don't and they catch you.
If you ship by DHL then DHL report it to Customs directly and pay the import duty for you and then bill you adding a surcharge to the cost. So it is somewhat false to think that GTC's are cheaper than a subscription as the overall cost is pretty much the same ( albeit i admit not quite as costly with GTC )
I have spent a lot of money in the eve store so far ú700 or so, so I do have some experience here. PS I ship by DSL always to avoid losing stuff. DHL grass me up to the man every time :/
Click here to visit our site
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys
Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.31 19:25:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Nev Clavain on 31/01/2007 19:22:53
Just had a brainwave!
Use your credit card to buy timecodes from a us$ website. Yes the electronis ones that get emailed to you. If you are really a moral crusader i suppose you could declare them to customs and pay tax, but honestly - its not necessaary.
Problem solved.
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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.01.31 19:33:00 -
[62]
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.01.31 20:00:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Curver
But how to know when you have to pay vat, quoting from direct.gov.uk:
"Businesses with annual sales below ú61,000 don't have to register for (and therefore charge) VAT. If they don't, the price you pay for their goods or services may be cheaper than if you bought the same goods or services from a VAT-registered supplier."
Does this company sell over ú61000 a year? how am i ment to know?
You ask them.
Of course in practice this is very difficult and time consuming but 'I didn't know' or 'I couldn't tell' will not get you off the hook if they choose to prosecute. Make no mistake - the law expects you to take responsibility for your actions. As the old adage has it "ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law"
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.01.31 20:10:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Andrue on 31/01/2007 20:13:59
Originally by: Grez
Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:50:27
Originally by: Jiekon
Originally by: Curver
The point of the thread is not to discuss VAT. it is to discuss the BASE price of paying in the US and UK. Since Eurors pay a higher base price before any additions.
The base price in euros is with VAT Added i believe. which is why it is higher.
It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing.
Math time!
Euros:
15.00 EUR = 9.96457 GBP (we'll call this 10 GBP).
Dollars:
15.00 USD = 7.67133 GBP (we'll call this 7.5 GBP).
So, you're saying the Euro's include VAT?
7.5 * 17.5% VAT = 8.8125 (we'll call this 9 GBP).
So we're being charged even more on top of VAT, even if it was due to it.
This has been asked before, and it's simply a case of it costing more for us, not VAT.
We've basicly been paying ú12 ($23.5) extra per year, if you include the VAT calculations, without, we pay roughly ú30($59) more per year. There have been several posts like this over the course of 2006, and this is the first of 2007 I believe. It would be nice if CCP got their act together over this and actually gave us something back for a bit. Americans did actually pay a little bit more than us for a year, but it was nothing to this magnitude.
No we haven't. The Americans have been paying less relative to the EU which is a different thing. The American currency has weakened over the last couple of years particularly with respect to the Euro and Sterling (don't forget that Iceland is economically tied to the EU so is effectively a European country).
You can't blame CCP for the Dollar tanking so you shouldn't be asking them to lower their prices for those of us living in the EU. Raising the dollar subscription would be more appropriate except that then you're punishing Americans for the decisions made by economists and financiers all round the world.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Andrue
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 20:13:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Siri Blue
So that is why your FEMA thingy in Louisiana went so bad...no taxes to finance it
But seriously...interesting to know that there are basically no taxes on internet stuff in the US...
AND ONLY 7% taxes on all other stuff you buy?!?
Sheesh!!! Me wants too!
Ask him how much he (or his parents) pays for medical insurance. If he's employed ask him if he has a contract and if he does how many days annual leave is he allowed and what's the notice period?
America is a land of opportunity but you have to work to get those opportunities. Quite often you have to work a helluva lot harder
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Andrue
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 20:14:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Apis Dorsetta
As far as I know Iceland should not charge their Tax rate to any shipment to the UK as they arent a member of the EU. I work for a company that does quite a bit of shipping all over the world and we charge VAT only to the EU countries.
CCP probably however include their tax price in the cost and those that shouldnt be charged the tax just loose out and they make a little extra cash off of them.
Iceland is one of a couple of countries that are part of the EU when it comes to trade but not politics. Basically they have access to the free trade stuff but don't have to get tangled in the beuraucracy.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Cerwyn Taraman
Minmatar
Phoenix Tech Industries
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 20:42:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 31/01/2007 20:42:43
Originally by: Andrue
Originally by: Siri Blue
So that is why your FEMA thingy in Louisiana went so bad...no taxes to finance it
But seriously...interesting to know that there are basically no taxes on internet stuff in the US...
AND ONLY 7% taxes on all other stuff you buy?!?
Sheesh!!! Me wants too!
Ask him how much he (or his parents) pays for medical insurance. If he's employed ask him if he has a contract and if he does how many days annual leave is he allowed and what's the notice period?
America is a land of opportunity but you have to work to get those opportunities. Quite often you have to work a helluva lot harder
So State + Local sales tax comes out to 7%-8% in most States. Some states do not have state income tax either such as Texas, they do however have slightly higher sales tax (8-9%).
I pay ZERO for my health insurance, it is employer provided (I work for the State of NC at a University in IT). I do pay minimal copays on prescription drugs such as $10-15 and my copays on generic drugs are free (no cost at all to me for them or for the doctor visits). However, to be truthful here this is not the case for many people who work for small businesses. When I worked for a small business a year ago (my previous job) I paid $146.80/month for good health insurance (covered just about everything, minimum copays). That is for healthy non-smoking adult male, costs are higher for females and those with pre-existing conditions etc.
I don't know how much State/Federal equivalent in income taxes you pay in the U.K. though. I may pay 7% for sales tax and mostly zero tax on internet goods, but I do pay around 30% of my income to the State, Federal, Social Security, and Medicare systems in income taxes. That number goes up or down based on your income level. Highest tax bracket is 39% atm IIRC. Lowest is free and lower income is around 15% income tax.
Socialized healthcare has benefits and disadvantages. We pay for our healthcare but we don't get put on waiting lists for what doctors claim are "elective" surgeries even if such surgeries are directly affecting your quality of life. You pay, you get better healthcare is the generally thought of axiom here which is why socialized healthcare (read, government pays for everyone to get their version of healthcare) has not gotten much traction here at all.
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CiNi
FireStar Inc
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.31 21:50:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Siri Blue
Concerning VAT (which would be Zoll or importing tax in Germany I believe):
Well, lets see...
The tax is supposed to be 19% or so?
Hm...and I'm paying 270 Million ISK per GTC...
So thats 51.3 million in taxes...
Where do I send that to?
u made beer come out my nose!!!
Firestar Is Not Recruiting :( |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.31 21:57:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 21:55:34
Cerwyn Taraman, Texas also has much higher property tax rates. According to people I know who have moved there, there's really very little actual difference. That's all second hand, though.
//Maya |
Bosie
Tenacious Warriors Acquiring Technology
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Posted - 2007.01.31 22:26:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Jiekon
The best idea is to contact your local Inland Revenue or Customs office if you have any questions.)
We merged and are now called HM Revenue & Customs and that link has all the information you need.
"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word,
which means more to me than any other.
That word is ENGLAND."
...Winston |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.31 22:36:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Siri Blue
Edited by: Siri Blue on 31/01/2007 15:30:31
I somehow doubt that there is no tax on GTCs in the US...
In the end that means due to the low $ value atm CCP is losing money on GTCs cause they do their business in Euros I guess...
When the Euro-$ relation was 1:1 and a GTC cost 14.99$ and a 3 month subscription 14.99Ç then CCP made 14 Euro 99 from each...(substracting any taxes and stuff of course)
Now that the Euro-$ relation is 1-1.3 CCP makes 14.99 Ç of the subscription while only making 11.53Ç off the GTC (again substracting any taxes from both)
See the point everyone?
It is simple: in the USA the VAT tax is different from state to state.
So a buyer in a different state must apply the VAT of the state where he live if buying through mail services or internet, and pay that to the state where he live, not the one where he buy the item (if he buy in a store, the VAT is applied directly).
Apparently this form of tax evasion (not paying VAT tax through internet puchases) is very common in the USA.
I have discovered all the above during a voyage in the USA last june, speaking with a friend living here.
Buying in aduty free in an airport has the same kind of "discount", no VAT tax.
The import tax is another thing, and it is applyed indipendently by the VAT tax.
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Kara Kaprica
Minmatar
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.01.31 22:49:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
It's down to exchange rates... At the end of the day, CCP still get the same amount paid to them in Euro's so they are not ripping you off.
No, thats a crockite of sheet.
if i pay ú10 it transfers into x euros
if i pay ú11 it transfers into x euros +10%
Yours not paying ANY rate over the internet, it is purely what one monetary type is worth against the other.
Simple fact is by only allowing (gtc not withstanding) Euro and UK players to pay vias Euros, we ARE paying more money, be it pounds euros or dollars. More money leaves my pocket (well not actually as i buy USA gtc) for the same service, ergo, being ripped off.
Always Outnumbered. Never Outgunned.
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Tinselle Po'Ulas
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Posted - 2007.01.31 22:52:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Andrue
Edited by: Andrue on 31/01/2007 20:13:59
Originally by: Grez
Edited by: Grez on 31/01/2007 15:50:27
Originally by: Jiekon
Originally by: Curver
The point of the thread is not to discuss VAT. it is to discuss the BASE price of paying in the US and UK. Since Eurors pay a higher base price before any additions.
The base price in euros is with VAT Added i believe. which is why it is higher.
It's not included due to the fact that EVE is run by an Icelandic company, and is therefor clean of VAT charges in the UK, and other various European countries. A CCP person already cleared this up at some point in the past. UK has a VAT of 17.5, and it still isn't covered in the pricing.
Math time!
Euros:
15.00 EUR = 9.96457 GBP (we'll call this 10 GBP).
Dollars:
15.00 USD = 7.67133 GBP (we'll call this 7.5 GBP).
So, you're saying the Euro's include VAT?
7.5 * 17.5% VAT = 8.8125 (we'll call this 9 GBP).
So we're being charged even more on top of VAT, even if it was due to it.
This has been asked before, and it's simply a case of it costing more for us, not VAT.
We've basicly been paying ú12 ($23.5) extra per year, if you include the VAT calculations, without, we pay roughly ú30($59) more per year. There have been several posts like this over the course of 2006, and this is the first of 2007 I believe. It would be nice if CCP got their act together over this and actually gave us something back for a bit. Americans did actually pay a little bit more than us for a year, but it was nothing to this magnitude.
No we haven't. The Americans have been paying less relative to the EU which is a different thing. The American currency has weakened over the last couple of years particularly with respect to the Euro and Sterling (don't forget that Iceland is economically tied to the EU so is effectively a European country).
You can't blame CCP for the Dollar tanking so you shouldn't be asking them to lower their prices for those of us living in the EU. Raising the dollar subscription would be more appropriate except that then you're punishing Americans for the decisions made by economists and financiers all round the world.
you simply make everyone pay in the same currency and forget the who pays more *******s. k?
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Soon Tzu
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Posted - 2007.01.31 22:57:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kara Kaprica
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
It's down to exchange rates... At the end of the day, CCP still get the same amount paid to them in Euro's so they are not ripping you off.
No, thats a crockite of sheet.
if i pay ú10 it transfers into x euros
if i pay ú11 it transfers into x euros +10%
Yours not paying ANY rate over the internet, it is purely what one monetary type is worth against the other.
Simple fact is by only allowing (gtc not withstanding) Euro and UK players to pay vias Euros, we ARE paying more money, be it pounds euros or dollars. More money leaves my pocket (well not actually as i buy USA gtc) for the same service, ergo, being ripped off.
No merchant will charge a USA VAT since they do not have one, and by using USA currency, you evaded the VAT charge up front, so you still owe your local tax man his due...you will have saved nothing if you followed the law.
comparing one countries currency to another and avoiding the local taxes you have a duty to pay, results in you seeing apples, when the matter at hand, is oranges.
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