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Project Discovery - March Update feedback thread

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CCP Wonderboy C C P C C P Alliance 1	Posted - 2016.03.01 11:57:57 - [31] - Quote Akkerman Shalyga wrote: Yadaryon Vondawn wrote: Akkerman Shalyga wrote: There are a lot of confusing samples without any hint. For example, here (ex. 160000370): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4262011/wrong.png I can't see green thin strands. I can't see any yellow point. Maybe we need some more hints about how to detect such features? The sample is not confusing, either the players or the system behind it is giving a false positive. There are a few of these examples where the 'good' option is just plain wrong. Not a few really. Seems like every 5-10 samples I can see a "plain wrong". And it can be easily achieved if system accepts most popular answer as a right answer. Because a lot of people just click like "ok, it seems good, no time to think, I need my money and AK" =( We are aware of these false positive samples. They are a result of a minor error in the long production line from the scientists microscope to Project Discovery. Human error is mostly at fault here, we are already working on it and we believe this will be fixed for the TQ release.

Terrah Chain Space Isolation 0	Posted - 2016.03.01 17:10:54 - [32] - Quote CCP Paradox wrote: Known Issues Soon to come Multiple example images per classification. Many asked for this also, as sometimes one example image is sometimes not clear enough. We are working on this now. Flight Academy video. To better explain Project Discovery, your role and help aid you through the tutorial we will be creating a Flight Academy video that will be available to watch in client and on YouTube. Thank you for trying out Project Discovery, -Team Astro Sparkle One area I think could use some clarification is when to choose more than one classification. I did some analysis yesterday and on one slide is seems the consensus was tied for 2 classifications, nucleus and cytoplasm. But on another similar slide only nucleus was the consensus. When there are two shades of green are we focusing on the bright green only or all green areas? When dealing with classification outside the nucleus, is it possible that there is green below the nulceus? If so how can you let players know when to ignore it? On one slide with the bright dots outside the nucleus the text said the dots would never be in the nucleus, since dots appeared to be in the nucleus also, I chose a different classification but got it wrong. So, my point is that if you want accurate results the training may need to be a little bit better. Otherwise I like it and had fun with it. Not sure the rewards would make it an item of interest for me, but definitely worth doing if I am passing the time waiting for something else.

CCP Wonderboy C C P C C P Alliance 1	Posted - 2016.03.01 17:46:08 - [33] - Quote Terrah Chain wrote: CCP Paradox wrote: Known Issues Soon to come Multiple example images per classification. Many asked for this also, as sometimes one example image is sometimes not clear enough. We are working on this now. Flight Academy video. To better explain Project Discovery, your role and help aid you through the tutorial we will be creating a Flight Academy video that will be available to watch in client and on YouTube. Thank you for trying out Project Discovery, -Team Astro Sparkle One area I think could use some clarification is when to choose more than one classification. I did some analysis yesterday and on one slide is seems the consensus was tied for 2 classifications, nucleus and cytoplasm. But on another similar slide only nucleus was the consensus. When there are two shades of green are we focusing on the bright green only or all green areas? When dealing with classification outside the nucleus, is it possible that there is green below the nulceus? If so how can you let players know when to ignore it? On one slide with the bright dots outside the nucleus the text said the dots would never be in the nucleus, since dots appeared to be in the nucleus also, I chose a different classification but got it wrong. So, my point is that if you want accurate results the training may need to be a little bit better. Otherwise I like it and had fun with it. Not sure the rewards would make it an item of interest for me, but definitely worth doing if I am passing the time waiting for something else. This is a pretty hard thing to convey in the tutorial, but i'll try my best. Remember that what you are looking at is actually a 3D structure represented in 2D, the nucleus is the doughey center of the cell, and the cytoplasm surrounds it. That means that there can be protein in the cytoplasm beneath the nucleus, giving the appearance that it is in the nucleus, when it actually is not. You can sort of tell when that is happening if there are green spots in the nucleus that are blurry and out of focus, that means they are either beneath or above the nucleus, which mean they are located in the cytoplasm. Another thing that is good to know is that you are not supposed to classify every little faint smudge of green. If you see green staining that is way weaker in brightness and contrast compared to other green staining in the image, you usually ignore it, but only if it is really weak. We are interested in the strongest proteins present in the cells, so classify everything you see, but leave out the super weak green staining. I hope that clears things up a little bit, we are of course always aiming to improve Project Discovery and we will try our best in training people to do this accurately.

Terrah Chain Space Isolation 0	Posted - 2016.03.01 18:20:46 - [34] - Quote CCP Wonderboy wrote: Terrah Chain wrote: CCP Paradox wrote: Known Issues Soon to come Multiple example images per classification. Many asked for this also, as sometimes one example image is sometimes not clear enough. We are working on this now. Flight Academy video. To better explain Project Discovery, your role and help aid you through the tutorial we will be creating a Flight Academy video that will be available to watch in client and on YouTube. Thank you for trying out Project Discovery, -Team Astro Sparkle One area I think could use some clarification is when to choose more than one classification. I did some analysis yesterday and on one slide is seems the consensus was tied for 2 classifications, nucleus and cytoplasm. But on another similar slide only nucleus was the consensus. When there are two shades of green are we focusing on the bright green only or all green areas? When dealing with classification outside the nucleus, is it possible that there is green below the nulceus? If so how can you let players know when to ignore it? On one slide with the bright dots outside the nucleus the text said the dots would never be in the nucleus, since dots appeared to be in the nucleus also, I chose a different classification but got it wrong. So, my point is that if you want accurate results the training may need to be a little bit better. Otherwise I like it and had fun with it. Not sure the rewards would make it an item of interest for me, but definitely worth doing if I am passing the time waiting for something else. This is a pretty hard thing to convey in the tutorial, but i'll try my best. Remember that what you are looking at is actually a 3D structure represented in 2D, the nucleus is the doughey center of the cell, and the cytoplasm surrounds it. That means that there can be protein in the cytoplasm beneath the nucleus, giving the appearance that it is in the nucleus, when it actually is not. You can sort of tell when that is happening if there are green spots in the nucleus that are blurry and out of focus, that means they are either beneath or above the nucleus, which mean they are located in the cytoplasm. Another thing that is good to know is that you are not supposed to classify every little faint smudge of green. If you see green staining that is way weaker in brightness and contrast compared to other green staining in the image, you usually ignore it, but only if it is really weak. We are interested in the strongest proteins present in the cells, so classify everything you see, but leave out the super weak green staining. I hope that clears things up a little bit, we are of course always aiming to improve Project Discovery and we will try our best in training people to do this accurately. Yes, thank you. I knew some of what you said, but trying to figure it out and also seeing what others are choosing as classifications makes me think some addtional tips and pointers can be helpful. Trying to accurately classify what the project is looking for is obviously key and I wanted to convey my experience so that you could clarify and help others understand with my first time user point of view. Also the better equipped the user to analyze with the proper point of view and understanding will make the project more successful. So thank you for the time and I hope you can find ways to convey the areas I mentioned to new analyst.
Yadaryon Vondawn Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 88	Posted - 2016.03.02 10:06:49 - [35] - Quote I noticed this morning that Project Discovery has a checkable box now that says 'Abnormal Sample'. What does that do? Oh and thanks for the way we can now select colours! It is great. And at the moment samples do not load :\|

CCP Wonderboy C C P C C P Alliance 1	Posted - 2016.03.02 10:40:37 - [36] - Quote Yadaryon Vondawn wrote: I noticed this morning that Project Discovery has a checkable box now that says 'Abnormal Sample'. What does that do? Oh and thanks for the way we can now select colours! It is great. And at the moment samples do not load :\| You check the 'Abnormal Sample' box when you see something in the image that can not be classified in any of the available categories. So when you see something strange or out of place, check the box and the scientists at the HPA will review it. I too like the new color filter ^-^ About the samples not loading, we are updating the MMOS API today and at the latest you should be getting samples tomorrow. Thank you :)

Yadaryon Vondawn Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 88	Posted - 2016.03.02 10:52:58 - [37] - Quote CCP Wonderboy wrote: Yadaryon Vondawn wrote: I noticed this morning that Project Discovery has a checkable box now that says 'Abnormal Sample'. What does that do? Oh and thanks for the way we can now select colours! It is great. And at the moment samples do not load :\| You check the 'Abnormal Sample' box when you see something in the image that can not be classified in any of the available categories. So when you see something strange or out of place, check the box and the scientists at the HPA will review it. I too like the new color filter ^-^ About the samples not loading, we are updating the MMOS API today and at the latest you should be getting samples tomorrow. Thank you :) Ah I see, am I correct in guessing that using the Abnormal Sample will eventually lead to additional classification categories? During one of the talks Lundberg I believe said that the HPA has 20 classifications currently, one of the aims of the project is to extend that number right? From a gameplay point of view: Is it going to be part of the tutorial? And looking forward to the renewed Project Discovery tomorrow :)

CCP Wonderboy C C P C C P Alliance 1	Posted - 2016.03.02 11:03:06 - [38] - Quote Yadaryon Vondawn wrote: CCP Wonderboy wrote: Yadaryon Vondawn wrote: I noticed this morning that Project Discovery has a checkable box now that says 'Abnormal Sample'. What does that do? Oh and thanks for the way we can now select colours! It is great. And at the moment samples do not load :\| You check the 'Abnormal Sample' box when you see something in the image that can not be classified in any of the available categories. So when you see something strange or out of place, check the box and the scientists at the HPA will review it. I too like the new color filter ^-^ About the samples not loading, we are updating the MMOS API today and at the latest you should be getting samples tomorrow. Thank you :) Ah I see, am I correct in guessing that using the Abnormal Sample will eventually lead to additional classification categories? During one of the talks Lundberg I believe said that the HPA has 20 classifications currently, one of the aims of the project is to extend that number right? From a gameplay point of view: Is it going to be part of the tutorial? And looking forward to the renewed Project Discovery tomorrow :) It could lead to additional categories, yes. And that would mean EVE players had made a real scientific discovery! However unlikely that is, it could happen :D

Yadaryon Vondawn Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 89	Posted - 2016.03.03 15:57:02 - [39] - Quote A new patch, a new feedback post :D Wallet still blinks, I beg of you, please remove it. Project Discovery is now taxed!? Why is this a thing? You get 50k~ per sample and you lose (in a NPC corp) 10% of that! I do not think this should be taxed CCP Wonderboy wrote: We are aware of these false positive samples. They are a result of a minor error in the long production line from the scientists microscope to Project Discovery. Human error is mostly at fault here, we are already working on it and we believe this will be fixed for the TQ release. I still see this happening, people identifying fibrillar centers as regular nucleoli's or nucleus as nucleoplasm. Based on the sample images and the sample images from the HPA these classifications are just plain wrong, yet it penalizes my accuracy. Level progression was changed to non linear. So because the level stuff did not reset but only the accuracy I happen to be able to see how much I need to get to rank 105, insert drumroll 135.494 Experience points. Yep, 135K(!) that means that with an 75% accuracy I need to classify over 1800 to level up. In the meantime I will not get any AK since this is only given out when ranking up. That is insane. 1800 samples take a good 6~ hours plus, if you rush it. Since I wont be able to level up now I cannot see if the reward has been changed accordingly but can we get some clarification on this? This seems extremely offputting to me. Before this change I got 5K+ AK at level 100+. If after this change this will remain the same I would quit Project Discovery right away because from a gameplay point of view it is not viable at all. *I feel this is the most important thing, I cannot stress this enough, without incentive the entire real life science tie in goes down the drain.* Abnormal sample is not part of the tutorial (not explained and not visible), maybe also include a sample image that is none of the options and has to be marked with Abnormal sample?
Oktura Ostus Wicked Privateers Smile 'n' Wave 9	Posted - 2016.03.03 16:59:21 - [40] - Quote CCP Wonderboy wrote: I too like the new color filter ^-^ Thanks for new filter! It now possible to view "holes" in blue cells. Small feature request to the filter: LMB on red color makes red visible, blue and green hidden. Is it possible that RMB on any color do reverse: hide it, and show all others?
Darkblad Hilfe is like Free Entertainment 456	Posted - 2016.03.03 22:50:47 - [41] - Quote The new Professor appears to be younger. If the surviving Professor really is the one that will host the Prorject. Her Portrait within the PD UI still is like this. Intended? NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!

CCP Wonderboy C C P C C P Alliance 4	Posted - 2016.03.04 10:26:45 - [42] - Quote Oktura Ostus wrote: CCP Wonderboy wrote: I too like the new color filter ^-^ Thanks for new filter! It now possible to view "holes" in blue cells. Small feature request to the filter: LMB on red color makes red visible, blue and green hidden. Is it possible that RMB on any color do reverse: hide it, and show all others? I've played a bit and find out this sample: http://i.imgur.com/MTQWznE.png 1600000854 As for me it's clear that there is "cytoskeleton" (marked in red circle), it's exactly the same as in examples, but it's marked as negative result. May be it's calculated from most often results, but such things disappoints a bit. May be it's possible to give ability to ask for recheck wrong results for players with high accuracy? With comment why to recheck. Thanks, i'll forward this to the HPA to see if they want to change their metadata for this task.

HPA Dichroic Polaris Corporation 12	Posted - 2016.03.04 11:59:34 - [43] - Quote Thanks for playing and helping us test this! In this case actually the annotation is correct as we at the HPA have manually curated the training tasks to ensure you have some quality feedback before venturing into the unknown. Here you have highlighted the cytokinetic bridge as indicated by the two dense red points extending towards each other. Remember, you are only looking for the pattern in the green signal. For this staining pattern you should see a bright green signal between the two red protrusions creating a small "bridge" between the cells. In this case, there is green signal everywhere between the cells, not just at this bridge. This indicates the protein labels the cell junctions, not the cytokinetic bridge. A slight caveat: If the green signal was much much brighter in this bridge between the red protrusions than the other areas showing cell junctions, cytokinetic bridge could be labeled. For the unknown samples, you will see a percentage of players voting for each class. We then try to estimate if the community has reached a consensus. HELP ME: Does anyone know how to set up email alerts for these forums? I see that I can receive notification on this topic, at the bottom of the post, but I would love to know automatically when a thread or post is created mentioning Project Discovery so I can give timely feed back. Sorry I'm a total noob to this EVE world Oktura Ostus wrote: CCP Wonderboy wrote: I too like the new color filter ^-^ Thanks for new filter! It now possible to view "holes" in blue cells. Small feature request to the filter: LMB on red color makes red visible, blue and green hidden. Is it possible that RMB on any color do reverse: hide it, and show all others? I've played a bit and find out this sample: http://i.imgur.com/MTQWznE.png 1600000854 As for me it's clear that there is "cytoskeleton" (marked in red circle), it's exactly the same as in examples, but it's marked as negative result. May be it's calculated from most often results, but such things disappoints a bit. May be it's possible to give ability to ask for recheck wrong results for players with high accuracy? With comment why to recheck.
Oktura Ostus Wicked Privateers Smile 'n' Wave 9	Posted - 2016.03.05 12:52:09 - [44] - Quote HPA Dichroic wrote: For this staining pattern you should see a bright green signal between the two red protrusions creating a small "bridge" between the cells. In this case, there is green signal everywhere between the cells, not just at this bridge. This indicates the protein labels the cell junctions, not the cytokinetic bridge. A slight caveat: If the green signal was much much brighter in this bridge between the red protrusions than the other areas showing cell junctions, cytokinetic bridge could be labeled. For the unknown samples, you will see a percentage of players voting for each class. We then try to estimate if the community has reached a consensus. Thank you for clarification! Thus returning to my proposal of "antiexamples" or misleading examples, when some choise looks right for this sample, but there are small important detail that might be missed and cause wrong answer. For people who wants reach high accuracy instead of fast money :) For instance, picture above could be added as "antiexample" for "cytokinetic bridge" with small text about importance of visible green dot between red parts of the bridge.
Sir Constantin 49	Posted - 2016.03.05 13:06:09 - [45] - Quote Is Project Discovery working as intended? I did like 60 samples and there wasn't any community vote, it always showed the 0%
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker 133	Posted - 2016.03.06 11:20:19 - [46] - Quote HPA Dichroic wrote: HELP ME: Does anyone know how to set up email alerts for these forums? I see that I can receive notification on this topic, at the bottom of the post, but I would love to know automatically when a thread or post is created mentioning Project Discovery so I can give timely feed back. Sorry I'm a total noob to this EVE world Sadly no. Perhaps CCP can give you access to some space magic API, but the forums do not have functionality like that. When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
HPA Dichroic Polaris Corporation 13	Posted - 2016.03.07 09:23:26 - [47] - Quote Oktura Ostus wrote: HPA Dichroic wrote: For this staining pattern you should see a bright green signal between the two red protrusions creating a small "bridge" between the cells. In this case, there is green signal everywhere between the cells, not just at this bridge. This indicates the protein labels the cell junctions, not the cytokinetic bridge. A slight caveat: If the green signal was much much brighter in this bridge between the red protrusions than the other areas showing cell junctions, cytokinetic bridge could be labeled. For the unknown samples, you will see a percentage of players voting for each class. We then try to estimate if the community has reached a consensus. Thank you for clarification! Thus returning to my proposal of "antiexamples" or misleading examples, when some choise looks right for this sample, but there are small important detail that might be missed and cause wrong answer. For people who wants reach high accuracy instead of fast money :) For instance, picture above could be added as "antiexample" for "cytokinetic bridge" with small text about importance of visible green dot between red parts of the bridge. We aren't currently planning "antiexamples" partially because it is hard to predict what you all might find challenging. What we are planning is a "image of the week" where we choose an image from the forums and/or the list marked with "abnormal sample" (see new in-game button) to explain the sample further. We are working with CCP games to try to also be able to directly credit players that lead us to these interesting examples too Additionally, I am planning to make a simple video of myself playing the game and explaining my choices so that people can see some of the logic that I use when evaluating the images. @Linus Gorp: Thanks for the reply, sad that I can't do that. @Sir Constantin: As far as I know it is. If you are getting unclassified samples it means you are among the first to evaluate them! 0% is a little misleading because in this case it really just means that not enough people have voted yet to give you a percentage. You should see unclassified samples some of the time (particularly if you have high accuracy), but it should not be every image, if it is let me know.
Yadaryon Vondawn Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 89	Posted - 2016.03.07 11:35:16 - [48] - Quote Is it possible @CCP Wonderboy or @CCP Paradox that the questions in this post are adressed? It should go live tomorrow and I am concerned it could be optimized, or at least clarified, a bit more :)
Oktura Ostus Wicked Privateers Smile 'n' Wave 9	Posted - 2016.03.08 20:50:59 - [49] - Quote HPA Dichroic wrote: What we are planning is a "image of the week" where we choose an image from the forums and/or the list marked with "abnormal sample" (see new in-game button) to explain the sample further. This would help me to better understand rules, thanks. Could you please also include in that list cases when majority of players (75% or something like this) selected exactly same wrong choise. I think such samples could be automatically filtered with simple script, so no manual work. And they should reveal common errors done by players, and common misunderstanding points in the rules.
Shalmon Aliatus Bluestar Enterprises The Craftsmen 8	Posted - 2016.03.09 13:19:45 - [50] - Quote Can you please display the explanation panel below the category that I am looking at ? When you, for example, mouse-over the "Nucleus" button in the NUCLEUS category, it leaves very little space for my mouse to mouse-over "Nucleoplasm" and "Nuclear bodys (few)", so I either have to move my mouse away or have to start at the right side all the time so the pop-up doesn't block the next category.
Motorbit HildCo Interplanetar Villore Accords 49	Posted - 2016.03.09 13:23:20 - [51] - Quote yeah... did this some 15 min. im fairly sure that some of the "correct" answers are wrong. at least, after two cases where the "correct" answer was obviously wrong and my answer (tho maybe not correct) was obviously less wrong, i removed the icon from my necom. now, im not saying that im the top biologist. i realy have no clue about this. but at least during the tutorials i missed only once. i also understand that a result is "correct" if it hits a threshold where enough players belive it to be correct. now, of course, i may be wrong here, but at least to me it seems this is not working very well.
Lasse R Farnsworth Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 20	Posted - 2016.03.09 15:26:58 - [52] - Quote Well Feedback: The abnormal Sample tickbox haqs no explanation .. and it would be cool to look back at the images if you see your acurracy drop .. just to learn
Rainboq Spencer Toxic Refuge Elemental Tide 0	Posted - 2016.03.09 17:48:55 - [53] - Quote It'd be nice to have a way to mark a sample as being out of focus, I've had a few there were impossible to decipher because the sample was completely out of focus it all became a giant haze.

CCP Wonderboy C C P C C P Alliance 6	Posted - 2016.03.09 17:55:40 - [54] - Quote Rainboq Spencer wrote: It'd be nice to have a way to mark a sample as being out of focus, I've had a few there were impossible to decipher because the sample was completely out of focus it all became a giant haze. Use the "Abnormal Sample" checkbox :)

Rainboq Spencer Toxic Refuge Elemental Tide 0	Posted - 2016.03.09 17:57:26 - [55] - Quote CCP Wonderboy wrote: Rainboq Spencer wrote: It'd be nice to have a way to mark a sample as being out of focus, I've had a few there were impossible to decipher because the sample was completely out of focus it all became a giant haze. Use the "Abnormal Sample" checkbox :) Will do :) Maybe have that in a tool tip for the button?
Eodp Ellecon I N E X T R E M I S Tactical Narcotics Team 27	Posted - 2016.03.09 18:38:36 - [56] - Quote Finding the baseline sample box not being in a fixed location annoying. Requires scrolling right to left to check variants. Also unable to select two options to make a comparison of baseline samples against each other. These would help with ascertaining the unknown sample leading to better accuracy attempts.
Konstantin Reshetnikov Dropbears Anonymous Friendly Probes 0	Posted - 2016.03.09 18:42:50 - [57] - Quote I just came across a strange sample and wasn't entirely sure what to mark it as. Sample and results What exactly is this and how should it have been marked?
Vypera Blackneck NerdHerd The Explicit Alliance 12	Posted - 2016.03.09 20:17:28 - [58] - Quote Ok, I feel like say couple of things about this mini-game. First of all I love it... well I loved it more some hours ago. But it still got me. I'm @ rank 14 atm. I was working up myself to 54.6 accuracy slowly and suddenly it dropped 0.9% at once... some more samples and it was down to 52.5 what the...? So the tutorial was fine, but it didn't explain a thing. I miss the explanation of the basic functionality of the window elements... for example as some said before, what is the abnormal check box for? There's no explanation what are the percentages on the buttons after submitting one. Would be nice to learn from them but it is just annoying as it is. I also miss the rules of the "game" there are no rules explained. What are my choices should be based on? Less but more accurate better or should I pick all the seemingly fitting patterns. Is the "right" answer based on a scientific fact or it just simply based on the answer of the EVE player base... if the case is the second, I'm out, thanks. I like to think that I help with playing. But after some hours clicking it just became annoying. It is just a hopeless guess work since no info, no feedback what should we do or done wrong. Teach us and you will reach your goal. Thanks for letting us participate and enrich this game! Keep up the good job! o7 Vyp
Valkyrie Quantum Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 0	Posted - 2016.03.09 20:54:18 - [59] - Quote While I personally thus far absolutely love the idea and think the implementation was fairly well done, I would say the following could improve the experience. --For tutorial questions perhaps some small paragraph explaining why something is what it is. not major issue --The biggest issue perhaps make it account wide scoring instead of character base while as a programmer myself I see the issue of what character to assign rewards to probably just a checker on which one is active I would imagine I just find it slightly silly that progress needs to be restarted if you use multiple characters, especially as it forces you to redo the tutorial. Other than that amazing job CCP I truly hope this project is expanded upon in order to help the research of even more organizations.
Lasse R Farnsworth Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 20	Posted - 2016.03.10 07:51:45 - [60] - Quote Another small feedback: The cell to cell variation answer (wich is somewhat subjetional) should not count to your accuracy rating. Right now I have the feeling that I'm punished for using that button ...

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