EVE Players 2016:

Free, accurate intel which increases risk: Heresy, must be patch out immediately, this is a disgrace, people should make an effort.

Free, accurate intel which decreases risk: Hallowed, sacrosanct, must be protected at all costs, cannot tolerate any suggestion of its removal.


The level of hate which attacked the watch list is matched only by the level of screaming defence about the "need" for local. Does it hurt you people being so hypocritical?

EVE Players 2016:

Free, accurate intel which increases risk: Heresy, must be patch out immediately, this is a disgrace, people should make an effort.

Free, accurate intel which decreases risk: Hallowed, sacrosanct, must be protected at all costs, cannot tolerate any suggestion of its removal.


The level of hate which attacked the watch list is matched only by the level of screaming defence about the "need" for local. Does it hurt you people being so hypocritical?

What about all the powwow that want to get rid of local also watch lists can both add or decrees risk based on who is using it so I'm lost on your point

It's more the general air, both here and the clearly more official feedback channel: reddit.

It's extremely disappointing both of these are not tackled at once, yet again it's all about MORE safety. Because let's face it, the super tears were starting to threaten the levees. Gotta keep chipping away at that risk, or so it would seem.

Nope and not even any of the CSM on reddit can muster an argument beyond "it's broken, knowing someone, is online somewhere in eve is totally OP because. Just because NOW STOP ASKING"

It's utterly pathetic, zero acknowledgement that it's a mere fraction of the picture. But gotta keep them super guys happy.

As Rocket_X said in the cap groups - this is a single shard MMO - I should be able to know that someone has 'opted out' of being in my universe. That is reasonable.

Compromise:

You can only add someone to your personal/corp/alliance watchlist if you have their corpse.

Nope and not even any of the CSM on reddit can muster an argument beyond "it's broken, knowing someone, is online somewhere in eve is totally OP because. Just because NOW STOP ASKING"

It's utterly pathetic, zero acknowledgement that it's a mere fraction of the picture. But gotta keep them super guys happy.

As Rocket_X said in the cap groups - this is a single shard MMO - I should be able to know that someone has 'opted out' of being in my universe. That is reasonable.

Why should we not be able to know if someone has placed themselves (literally) beyond all possible interaction?

I mean, if someone can completely and totally opt of the game, is it really unreasonable to know that? To know that you're chasing an impossible target?

Why would a random delay (5-15 minutes) on log on notifications and a 60 second delay on log offksis not suffice to kill the "instant" intel?


And the other thing is, without using killboards, eve who, locators and a scout in the system etc etc the damned thing is completely useless anyway. It's a very small part of the huge out of game metadata wheel, a part that says "this player is now in (potentially) play" and I think that is important.

In an environment were removing oneself from play is allowed, we should most assuredly be able to find that out and yes even that's that's a deus ex machina style solution.

I really don't care about the log on notification, delay that until your hearts are content.


Also I understand this is info available out of game - that should also be killed.

Docking, afk can be camped. You have a possibility of contact. Logged off, taken their ball and gone home? You get nothing.

I said knowing ONLINE is useless without other data, knowing a chase is actually impossible is not useless, just reasonable.


Like I say, what's unreasonable about killing out of game access and delaying the log ON notification?

Knowing PL/NC./goons/T-C/whoever have fifty supercap pilots logging in all at once is far from useless information.

The issue here for literally everyone who isn't wrecking crew is fairly simple, we can't check if someone is worth looking for.

I don't need to know when you log in but I do need to check of you are online before I waste my isk, time and effort looking for you.

I need to be able to ping someone and get a binary online/offline response at the very least or my only other reasonable hope of seeing a war target is by camping the hubs and trade pipes.

The issue here for literally everyone who isn't wrecking crew is fairly simple, we can't check if someone is worth looking for.

I don't need to know when you log in but I do need to check of you are online before I waste my isk, time and effort looking for you.

I need to be able to ping someone and get a binary online/offline response at the very least or my only other reasonable hope of seeing a war target is by camping the hubs and trade pipes.

I like this idea you have to check if they are online or not so you can't instantly know if a bunch of supers log in unless you check the pilots individually

Particularly given they are war targets, we pay for aggression rights, they get 24h notice of who we are and what we intend and for the expected duration of hostility.

Ok now you lost me I don't think it's your fault I think it just went over my head

I wonder if adding a corp or alliance to a watchlist would trigger thier idea of "mutual"?

both myself and the op are mercs , active hunting ones at that.

this change will reduce us to humping hubs and pipes

my point though was though the people that end up on our watch-lists are notified in advance they are going to war and thus what our intent is

no tactical tracking of the opponents, either of 0.0 supercapital pilots or your personal opponent, no matter whether you are the hunter or the prey

- no chance for determining login traps

- no chance to determine alts

- while hunting one can not determine if the opponent is lost or logged off, which lead to very frustating gameplay

Locator agents are desperately in need of an overhaul. And in my system, they would get a wide array of new buffs, both out of necessity, and because even without my proposed changes they need some changes. So here's how I would change them.

1:) All locator agents now have unlimited range. From level one to level four, all agents can now locate anyone anywhere. Let's be honest, the level one and two agents are near useless, three may be marginally useful, but I am fairly sure people only ever use level four agents. Since you had to grind standings anyway and you pay for distance of locate, it really doesn't make sense not to use level four agents. So, we'll give all agents a huge buff so they can all be useful. This also means you don't have to do tedious grinding with local NPC's just to be able to run basic locates.

2:) With all locator agents finding people at all ranges, what is left for the level two through four agents? We are going to revamp what intel is given at what level agent.
__A: Level one agents give you star system information only.
__B: Level two agents tell you whether the person is docked (at what station) or if they're in space.
__C: Level three agents tell you what ship the person is flying.
__D: Level four agents give you access to watch list functions. For a sum of 10 million isk, they will enable you to watch 1 person per transaction, for a period of 7 days. Only works in k-space, and while undocked. Further explanation on page 3, first post.

3:) Decreased search duration, decreased cooldown. Locates need to be more accessible, with how few and far between some locator agents can be. So, I'd make the search duration a mere 30 seconds, with no cooldown. If you want to toss a ton of isk at an agent finding out where every person of that 30-man industrial corp is, then you should be able to go for it.

4:) Cost. I'm not immediately familiar with how much each level of locator agent costs (again, I recall it is based on distance, I just don't remember what each level costs), but I believe the farthest current range costs 500,000 isk, am I correct? I would up the cost of the locator agents so level one agents start at that, then it doubles up from there. 1 million isk for a level two agent, 2 million isk for a level three agent, and 4 million isk for a level 4 agent.


(...)The lore: level 4 agents, being rather high up in the command chain of their respective companies, have contacts within Concord. Contacts willing to keep tabs on other players for you...for a price. Concord officers take the bribe and spread it to their friends, friends that use the stargate network to monitor your status.

Here's the catch:

All things in the game need counterplay. The counterplay for this watchlist is this: It no longer functions as a simple "online/offline" status. It functions as an "in k-space" status. Due to working through the Concord-monitored stargate network, it does not work in wormholes. And it does not work while a pilot is docked.

So is your target offline, or simply docked up? Hmm. Now the intel is incomplete, and it has to be. Streaming intel cannot be infallible, heck, streaming intel should not be possible at all. But I think this is an acceptable compromise.

__B: Level two agents tell you whether the person is docked (at what station) or if they're in space.


,,,

And it does not work while a pilot is docked.

So is your target offline, or simply docked up?

I'd like to bring up a system of changes I proposed a while back, including changes to the watch list and local.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=416522

I'd direct your attention to post #2, where I propose making watch lists a function of locator agents, as part of an overhaul both of watch lists and locator agents. It's best to get full context of the changes I proposed since they all are part of an integrated system, but I'll copy-paste the relevant section to this thread since this thread deals strictly with the discussion around watch lists.

I use the watchlist to track whether or not someone is multiboxing so we know if 4 War Targets are 1 person or 4 individals which assists in tactics.

Most Intel people can tell this without the watchlist but getting OOC eyes flagged to your corp usually requires some form of proof.

This will no longer be the case and so sucks balls imho.

Seeing a lot of talk about Supercaps, so looks like as usual CCP is pandering to the elite level and saying F%^& You to everyone else.

What's next CCP? Pandas and a F%^&ing Farming Option?

not frustrating for someone being chased.

this change is good and long overdue. You shouldnt be able to see someones online status just by adding them to a list.

you should be able to know if you are wasting your time looking for some one who has just quit playing

But honestly, if someone had proposed in F&I yesterday that "Hey guys, we should introduce a mechanic that lets me know the second a pilot comes online no matter how far away from me they are, so I can start hunting them instantly, and this mechanic will have no cost at all and can be done by a zero skill alt" they'd have been laughed off the forums and called a troll for proposing an idea that bad. The current Watchlist is a terrible mechanic.

For those care bears who now think AWESOME ..... you're wrong. Let me tell you what will happen if they implement this. It means I can no longer focus my wars as a mercenary on specific targets. Guess what I will do next.... exactly, War dec twice as many alliances/corps as I do now.

Want less wars ? Dont nerf but buff the watch lists, so we need less wars to operate.

I suspect that a lot of people will get on the Blocked list once this feature goes live, for the simple reason that you can just "Start Conversation" them to find out whether they are online or not. Not nearly as stealthy as the Watchlist should they be online and a lot more invasive should a lot of people chose to convo you, but that's that to it.

You know its a good change when you generate this kind of response.
All free intel should go from this game.

You should be required to take more effort than looking at a contact to see if your target is online.
Being able to do so has been OP for a long time.

....so their towers cannot be easily located.

Sounds like interesting and challenging gameplay.

A lot better than free-force fed intel.

That was a typo, should have read assets however the point remains.

Prey tell, how does one locate a logged off asset in a system? This should be good.

You see when you log off you're invisible, no trace, 100% completely unfindable, ever. So with power like that, why should there not be counterplay that allows people to even know that finding you is so much as possible?


I see you ducked the local question, thus I can only conclude you belong to the large crop of hypocrites.

That's (pretty much) flagged as an exploit, iirc. People used to spam convos at people to cripple their ability to use the UI was the reason.

To be fair, this was a while ago.

Not much of an exploit there if I convo you daily or every other hour ... or if many people do that.

While the asset is logged off it also can't affect a single thing, and unless I remember my locators wrong, if you know the asset exists at all, you can then use a locator agent to find which system it was in and if they logged off in space or in a station (& possibly even in a citadel). So yes you can't blow up someone's ship that they are actively piloting while they are logged off. And you should never be able to localise it and lie in wait to ambush them as soon as they log in either, because that's bad gameplay and denies them any chance to respond.

You want to locate it precisely, locate it before they log off. Or accept you only have a rough location.
But while you can't affect them logged off, they also can't affect you or find you. So fair is fair.

For those care bears who now think AWESOME ..... you're wrong. Let me tell you what will happen if they implement this. It means I can no longer focus my wars as a mercenary on specific targets. Guess what I will do next.... exactly, War dec twice as many alliances/corps as I do now.

Want less wars ? Dont nerf but buff the watch lists, so we need less wars to operate.

You see when you log off you're invisible, no trace, 100% completely unfindable, ever. So with power like that, why should there not be counterplay that allows people to even know that finding you is so much as possible?

Prey tell, how does one locate a logged off asset in a system? This should be good.

You see when you log off you're invisible, no trace, 100% completely unfindable, ever. So with power like that, why should there not be counterplay that allows people to even know that finding you is so much as possible?


I see you ducked the local question, thus I can only conclude you belong to the large crop of hypocrites.

Well, you actually have to take some effort as a group to find where players log off. There should be no easy-mode, "ya, my target just logged on" service in the game.

There is a locator service that tells you where someone is though I would say that mechanic is also broken. It, and no game mechanic, should be 100% accurate at all times. There should be some uncertainty and risk involved in trying discover a players location.

The locator service should give out accurate and inaccurate information that can't be gamed by having 20 players running it on the same player. It should give them all the same accurate and inaccurate information based upon random chance.

There should also be a risk that each time you run the locator service the target is notified and given the option to provide specific false information to maybe set their own trap for those who are trying to locate him.

Getting 100% risk-free and accurate intel should never exist in this game.

Getting 100% risk-free and accurate intel should never exist in this game.

local

Getting 100% risk-free and accurate intel should never exist in this game.

So you are an advocate, for the removal of local?

Wat

no eve should not make players do pve the amount we are already forced to is to much

Sure, but CCP did add the mechanic for a good reason years ago. This is a game universe where you can remove yourself from by just logging out. There needs to be ways to know when other players, both your friends and your foes, are online so you can interact with them.

I think the compromise is to buff locator agents or add equivalent functionality via a new structure

Don't know about him, but I certainly am.

Get rid of local, keep watchlists as a function of locator agents and an isk sink to discourage mass-use, and increase reliance on d-scan. Safety in this game should come from what you actively do to keep yourself safe, not passive things like watching local and watchlists.

This is already existing and is called wormhole. Everyone is free to move there and meet others like the same. Therefore it is no need to expand it to other areas. And btw it is unbalanced as all industry related stuff and pve cant be hidden from dscan while all pvp can. It would be a need to increase the reward for pve and industry then.

This is still a sandbox with interaction to other players. There is no point in artificially make it more difficult by letting them only see what is in 14AU range around.

This is already existing and is called wormhole.

This is still a sandbox with interaction to other players. There is no point in artificially make it more difficult by letting them only see what is in 14AU range around.

Stuff about agents that should be inacurate and even harder to use.

From years of experience, between the moment a target is located by the agent, the target has already moved around: There is inacurracy.

From the moment you know the target's location (assuming it is in space and interactable with) and the time you moved there tp intercept, the target has moved even further from original location: There is inacurracy.

Or logged off, by the time you get there. Or just logged in and decided to AFK cloak troll you for the next 10 hours, or stay docked.

Asking an agent to locate someone isn't a guarranty of a kill, or even finding a target, or make it interactable. You spend your time to go grind standings. Then spend time to ask an agent. You spend ISK. You spend more time to get to location, and that with no guarranty you will actually have a target when you get there.

Most users of locator agents will tell you that a vast majority of targets, when located, produce no concrete results in the end. Under teh current system I made watchlists of hundred of active players: Easily over 90% of location results doesn't result on anything.

Inacurracy isn't needed.

noone was talking about wormholes, as they have already no local display.



you know, CCP could also implement some sort of replacement for local, it would need to be less powerful however.

confirming all of this,
given the inordinate amount of effort and grinding needed to gain access to a useful amount of agents they dont offer anywhere near enough with the changes inbound.

Getting rid of local without at least modifying some other game mechanics would be a bit harsh

which is exactly what we are saying about watch-lists.

From 10 years of Null Sec and Low Sec Pvp experience, this is a bit overblown.
You just don't want to lose your free intel in order to keep it easy to track Supercapitals, war and gank targets.

i dont give two ****s about your supers , truly i don't.

what i want is the ability to decern between someone who is actually playing the game and isnt before i waste 40 minuets looking for him.

i dont need to see when he logs in but i would need to know if he is online when i make the decision to try and find him.

this isnt about your supers ,
neither i nor any of my friends could conceivably care any less about what or when you do with them.

i dont give two ****s about your supers , truly i don't.

what i want is the ability to decern between someone who is actually playing the game and isnt before i waste 40 minuets looking for him.

i dont need to see when he logs in but i would need to know if he is online when i make the decision to try and find him.

this isnt about your supers ,
neither i nor any of my friends could conceivably care any less about what or when you do with them.

You don't, others do. Your uses for the watchlist are not the only ones.

You don't, others do. Your uses for the watchlist are not the only ones.

And yet after 10 years we're still tossing the baby out with the bathwater when in fact the actual problem is solvable without either one being needed!

i understand that and as i have said, i dont need to know when someone logs in , nor would i have an issue with putting a reasonable amount of effort in to find out if they are but flying out to check each and every one of them isnt feasible.

im not here saying change wasent needed but this change,
without complimentary balancing of other tools is a massive nerf to everyone who isnt hub/pipe humping

From 10 years of Null Sec and Low Sec Pvp experience, this is a bit overblown.
You just don't want to lose your free intel in order to keep it easy to track Supercapitals, war and gank targets.

The discovery of any player should be done by a player, not given out by a NPC. A NPC could give clues but the actual discovery should be done by players.

If you have too many targets to track by the players in your organization, you should either reduce your targets or start recruiting more players, not ask for CCP to allow you to continue to rely on a flawed game mechanic.

Over dramatization of the issue. Automatically knowing if someone is in the game with a specific character from anywhere in the game is OP and needs to go.


I know all you guys want to keep padding your KBs with easy spoon fed kills, but really, this game shouldn't be about that. The discovery and the chase has always been more fun than the actual catch.

The discovery should not be automatic. The chase shouldn't be the race to the nearest locator agent, and the catch should be more than just a stat on your KB.

The watch list makes the discovery of prey automatic, the locator agent makes it simple, and with that it makes the catch trivial as compared to what it could be.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying there.

Are you saying taht I should log my 2 accounts and, if I want to, say, catch you, I should visit every one EVE's 5000 odd system to see if you're somewhere, and that without knowing if you are even online?

Unless you have moved behind me by jumping your ratting Super and then I will have to rake New Eden 2-3 time more, just to be sure.

Edit: Or maybe, I want you not to find me, ever. All I have to do is sit in a dead-end and keep a scout next door.

So you are an advocate, for the removal of local?

I'll take a delayed Constellation chat as a local replacement. I'm not against people knowing roughly who is in their vicinity to interact with and it means you can't just camp a gate and remain totally invisible to local/constellation. But you can quickly pass through without being there long enough to come up on the system.

And Starrakatt, I hear there are these things called locators and friends to tell you which of the 5,000 systems you referred to you actually need to visit.
I'm personally even fine with locater agents getting on/offline status showing up as long as you actually have to fly to the agent, have standings, and pay them with a cooldown before you can use them again.
If you can use them remotely, that's OP since you can just churn through 50 of them instantly while sitting docked at no risk.
If you don't need standings that's OP because you can use a bunch of alts to utilize them ignoring any cooldown.
If they don't have a cooldown that's OP because you can use a single agent to find 1,000 people.

The game needs to get rid of the easy intel and provide us with more player driven methods in the form of deployable structures, better locators agents, services, skills, and player created services such as a spy market.

And Starrakatt, I hear there are these things called locators and friends to tell you which of the 5,000 systems you referred to you actually need to visit.

A character hiding in a dead end system and never coming out isn't impacting the gameplay of others too much, nor is he gaining any real advantage by being there.

I question anyone who has to track and kill a specific character in any game.

You don't, others do. Your uses for the watchlist are not the only ones.

The question was: How am I to find a player if I don't know he's online and have to rely on scouting most of New Eden to find him, not knowing if he's even online. If you are being honest, you will know it is not really possible.

I feel like there's a near one hundred percent chance that one or more players who insist that players in highsec PVP groups should "adapt" to watchlist changes will later comment, or have already commented in the past in a thread about highsec warfare that large, trade hub camping alliances are the scourge of the universe and need to be dealt with by CCP in some way.

Just saying, we did warn you.

We always warn you.

Hunting a specific character for in-game reasons should take some effort, by more than one player.

you know you have a point when your usual prey item is agreeing with you ...

Good riddance. The mechanics behind watchlisting someone were stupid and made no sense.

I'm really curious though, as a compromise how do people feel about the notion of locators refusing to run on offline players?

Make them run with both a shorter delay and a refund with the result message telling you the target cannot be found. Hell I could see level 3 give last "seen" region and 4 last seen constellation for example since the guy still do some research with the shorter delay running.

IIRC, I heard that with CREST allowing you to fiddle with your contacts, the conclusion is going to be a big list of every supercap pilot in EVE you can watchlist with one click.

Bit much imo.

Compromise:

You can only add someone to your personal/corp/alliance watchlist if you have their corpse.

Yes.

Remove Watchlist, remove Local, remove Locator Agents.

More PvP for everyone.

That is all.

Removing the watch list notifications without an effective replacement system will reduce conflict and content. Consequences will be increased effectiveness of AFK cloaky campers, and fewer junior FCs stepping into larger FC roles.

AFK cloaky campers can be mitigated through a bit of research into who they represent. Hotdropers leave a trail of killmails that leads back to their bridging pilots. When watchlisted, you can accurately assess if the neutral pilot sitting in system for the past week is asleep. Removing the watch list notification will amplify AFK Cloaking, which is widely considered one of the most broken mechanics in the game.

Alliance level FCs utilize a large intel network to make them effective in large scale engagements. Eg: He/She will have scout alts watching the enemy staging systems and often have spys on the other side.

Aspiring junior and mid level FCs rarely have access to the same info. Some of this is due to the necessity of keeping your FC channels small for op-sec (and spam comment reduction). But with a bit of research, and trial by fire, junior FCs can eventually find out who the hostile titan pilot may be.

In sum, removing this bit of intel further compunds the problems that new FCs face as they try to build confidence in their abilities not just to themselves but, more importantly, to the people who may attend their fleet.

Reduced confidence in an FC leads to lower participation on his fleets. If your junior FC is constantly getting dropped on and dunked, people will stop going on his fleets. The spin off effect is that people will only want to attend fleets with their Main Alliance FC. Fewer junior FCs will have the chance to learn and grow into senior positions in circumstances where their enemy uses capitals regularly. Fewer FCs will lead to less fleets, more stand downs, more blue balled fleets, and less content overall.

I dont disagree that it would make some sense to remove the metagame aspect of the watch list; however, has an effective in game system been designed and implemented to replace this lost functionality ?

Make sure to log in some more alt accounts and spam the thread to misrepresent the consensus.

-stuff

Really, the intel provided by the watch-list benefits larger groups over the smaller more than anything.
Which is why it's not entirely surprising to see a fair amount of guys from the larger groups upset about it's removal.
Imagine the difficulty of keeping track, or even hunting, individual supers all over the galaxy when you have to scout each one individually as opposed to opening your People & Places.

I do like the way CCP are announcing this rather large change by putting it under the "Miscellaneous" heading of the patch notes, which tbh is where the majority of players will see it and/or wonder why the hell their watchlist isn't working on tuesday

Yup

Nice job CCP

Flame on!

what's the point of the "buddy list" now? if we really wanted to keep track of people we call friends, that are outside of our corps, we would just create a channel and invite those people and continue on our merry way.

So once again, what's the point of this?

The new Buddy List has no real point, as you said, its only a band aid on the Watchlist removal, to reduce the level of outcry, basically.

The real point is Watchlist removal.

Without anything meaningful to replace it. CCP could have just removed watchlists altogether and accomplish the same thing.

I do like the way CCP are announcing this rather large change by putting it under the "Miscellaneous" heading of the patch notes, which tbh is where the majority of players will see it and/or wonder why the hell their watchlist isn't working on tuesday

Yup

Nice job CCP

Flame on!

Where exactly would you have classified this change?

If it's as big a deal as the crying super owners made it out to be; then it's is clearly deserving of its own blog.