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Cyrene Initiative denies SF the surrender they want.

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Mithrantir Ob'lontra Gallente Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2007.02.07 19:45:00 - [31] You fail to understand don't you. We do still uphold the Federation ideals as we did in the beginning of this war. We are not however blind to the distance that exists between these ideals and the Federation now. Originally by: Devilish Ledoux You say that you don't support the Federation. If this is true, then formally surrendering to us should be completely painless, since you won't be asked to give anything up that you haven't already forsaken. (Please do not deny that you supported the Federation at the beginning of our war against you. Your denial will not be believed.) I will quote this for you. Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra Not because we are what you say we are. But because we are who we are. And to make us take the steps backwards in order to satisfy your egos is not an option. As for our supposedly denial, i would suggest to read carefully what i have said in my posts. Originally by: Jasmine Constantine The first post in this thread bore absolutely no recognition to any demands for surrender we have ever placed before you. Perhaps you should do what Sakura suggests? The first post I did in this thread, was referring to these terms though. As the second one did too. I was referring to my post, and i am sorry for not clarifying that. Originally by: Coeleth You have, in our perceptions, shifted stances and apparently your ideals a few times during the course of this short conflict. If this is the evolution, or the latest aspect of the evolution you speak of, then in a way you have us to thank. In the first post i did in this thread i had linked you to another post of mine that was addressed to you as an alliance, despite the fact that was originated from Mr Kovids words. The stance has not changed during this war. The only thing that this war has brought to CYI is publicity that was neither needed or sought after. As i said in my first post here, the whole process was a silent one and did not include any public statements or other PR show. The reasons why, are also stated there. So the only thing that you did is forcing us to publish this change. As i have told again and again, the coloring of CYI with a nationalistic meme was a direct outcome of outdated data in the public DB. And also the misinformation that there must have been by your sources. As for the diplomatic contacts, if there will be any, it will be decided in the discussion with the members of CYI. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:03:00 - [32] Are you saying that your publicly declared support for the Federation was a typographical error? Do you really think SF declared war on you over a misunderstanding? _
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:30:00 - [33] Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 07/02/2007 20:27:06 Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Are you saying that your publicly declared support for the Federation was a typographical error? Do you really think SF declared war on you over a misunderstanding? what they are saying is that they do not support the Federation anymore, they admit they have lost the war and they refuse to admit they changed their stance because of this war because of ego (though Crausaum triedàsort of). Ultimately this does show they are a failure, the war stats and the massive loss of membership has also proven it. The surrender of various spin off corps and member corps as they have left also point to the actual situation. CYI has lost but doesn't have the good grace to admit it. They can't field a combat force against either group any longer. The days of 20+ blobs is over for them. They continue to lose members due to alliance inaction and they have completely relocated their operation far from the source of conflict. This is a matter of public record and not deniable. They don't want to blatantly say that they faced enemies and lost the war, and their enemies (IU/SF) would prefer them to say it as a matter of public record. That is the sticking point but by the very nature of it being the sticking point it proves SF won. And their absence from syndicate and placid proves IU won. Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think. GLBTA Channel
Crausaum Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:26:00 - [34] The simple fact of the matter is the war is not lost until the Star Fraction declares victory, then the war will be over and there will be a winner and a loser. We have no major military ability to oppose them and never have really, yet we cannot yield to them under the current terms. Surrendering and handing Star Fraction their victory right now is impossible as we cannot honor the current surrender terms and have no intention of being dragged through the mud when we break it an hour after signing by returning to our duties in the Placid region by clearing obstructions to free passage. Cyrene are mostly Federation citizens or free peoples who operate inside Federation space and as such many of their daily actions will continue to aid the Federation even if they do not directly know it. What the Star Fraction has decided to attack is our way of life and not our political outlook. We will not give up our dignity and citizenship for a flimsy promise of peace. The attacks on the Caldari peoples attending their memorial have demonstrated to us what a low tolerance the Star Fraction has of free will and expression. --------------------------- absit iniuria verbis
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:55:00 - [35] Originally by: Crausaum Surrendering and handing Star Fraction their victory right now is impossible as we cannot honor the current surrender terms and have no intention of being dragged through the mud when we break it an hour after signing by returning to our duties in the Placid region by clearing obstructions to free passage. Please tell me where in the terms it states that you should not clear obstructions to free passage? Quote: We will not give up our dignity and citizenship for a flimsy promise of peace. The attacks on the Caldari peoples attending their memorial have demonstrated to us what a low tolerance the Star Fraction has of free will and expression. The only individuals attacked were war targets who had not met our terms of surrender. Their alliance later met our terms and has not been attacked since. When we promise peace on a given set of terms we keep that promise. An indication as to the nature of the original terms to CYI can be found in Sakura's links in her post above. We have always said to you that we are open to negotiation. You have either ignored us or publicly insinuated that we made demands that have never formed any part of any communication to you. If you wish to negotiate with us, do so. If you do not, fine. Understand this, if you meet a set of terms with us, after a negotiation if you wish, you will get lasting peace. If you do not then the war may end at some point but you will remain a -10 target and we will consider ourselves free to re-declare a CONCORD war at any time that suits us. It is entirely up to you. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Recruitment
Hatch	Posted - 2007.02.07 23:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Violence, naked force, has solved more issues in history than any other factor, and the contrary thinking is wishful thinking at its worse. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms. come up with that on your own or have you been watching starship troopers too much
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.08 00:10:00 - [37] Originally by: Crausaum Surrendering and handing Star Fraction their victory right now is impossible as we cannot honor the current surrender terms and have no intention of being dragged through the mud when we break it an hour after signing by returning to our duties in the Placid region by clearing obstructions to free passage. We don't have a problem with an organization clearing Placid of pirates to increase trade, commerce, and the general safety of that traffic. Doing it in the name of the Federation, however, or to foster a dependency culture amongst the region's travelers is what we take issue with. Originally by: Crausaum We will not give up our dignity and citizenship for a flimsy promise of peace. The attacks on the Caldari peoples attending their memorial have demonstrated to us what a low tolerance the Star Fraction has of free will and expression. Do we ask for the cession of your dignity? I dare say you gave that up with your conduct in the war - do we ask for you to throw away your citizenship? No; if you come to terms, we can work something out that gives us our victory, while allowing you to rebuild. You want to talk about the Caldari Memorial attack? Let's talk - we declared total victory in Mito when KD reached a stage almost as dead as your own, and as they surrendered we maintained cassus belli. The moment they say they're going to come to Caldari Prime to make a grand speech about the Caldari, we invoke our rights to re-declare war on them, and kill their executor. Shortly after, they surrendered, and have not been touched since. This is the fate that awaits CYI if you do not come to terms. If it gets to the point where we declare total victory, we will return whenever we see fit to destroy your infastructure, ships, and people until you come to the negotiating table to sue for peace. We have been generous in this thread, if you have concerns or problems with the terms, then let's talk - however, if you're going to exclaim that they are unfair while refusing to try and do anything to change them, then you are a hypocrite. I look forward to hearing from you.
Hatch	Posted - 2007.02.08 00:15:00 - [38] Originally by: Sakura Nihil if you're going to exclaim that they are unfair while refusing to try and do anything to change them, then you are a hypocrite. that isn't hypocritical, it's stubourn.
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.08 00:27:00 - [39] Originally by: Hatch Originally by: Sakura Nihil if you're going to exclaim that they are unfair while refusing to try and do anything to change them, then you are a hypocrite. that isn't hypocritical, it's stubourn. Not when you want and end to the war but refuse to talk at the offer.
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai	Posted - 2007.02.08 02:39:00 - [40] I'll be sure to add "Thank you everyone for attending" as a grand speech. As for my martyrdom at the Memorial, that had nothing to do with KD's subsequent conditional surrender. That had more to do with speaking to people who understood reasonable demands for a cessation of hostilities. Did you learn nothing from Mito? When you give someone two equally damming choices they more often times choose neither. ----- results may vary

Crausaum Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:11:00 - [41] Edited by: Crausaum on 08/02/2007 03:10:33 Originally by: Sakura Nihil Not when you want and end to the war but refuse to talk at the offer. Your offer is insulting when combined with your groups open ended logic and assures us of nothing. The act of clearing a path for your friends is creating a dependancy culture, the very act freely giving aid to anyone is an act of dependancy culture. You spout off ideals but put little thought into the full implications of what they mean. Is the idea that you belong to a society that you enjoy a viral meme that must be purged through violence? Will you declare war if we help another citizen in need? Will you attack should we decide to help the Federation in the area when their goals meet with ours? I ask these guestions because your alliance supposedly supports freespace yet you have allied with groups that restrict access to sectors of Placid by blocking gates (Black Rabbits) and others that attempt to bar access to areas of space based on imagined culture (Intaki Union). As your organization seems to give itself so much freedom in it's affiliations can I assume you would extend these to us? Your groups current surrender terms simply appear to be the work of tyrants that wish to impose their will on others but they are the work of rational tyrants. When you factor in the ramblings of the Star Fractions general memberbase it seems to be the work of someone with multiple personalities. --------------------------- absit iniuria verbis
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:21:00 - [42] Originally by: Crausaum Your offer is insulting when combined with your groups open ended logic and assures us of nothing. The act of clearing a path for your friends is creating a dependancy culture, the very act freely giving aid to anyone is an act of dependancy culture. You spout off ideals but put little thought into the full implications of what they mean. Is the idea that you belong to a society that you enjoy a memetic meme that must be purged through violence? Will you declare war if we help another citizen in need? Will you attack should we decide to help the Federation in the area when their goals meet with ours? I ask these guestions because your alliance supposedly supports freespace yet you have allied with groups that restrict access to sectors of Placid by blocking gates (Black Rabbits) and others that attempt to bar access to areas of space based on imagined culture (Intaki Union). As your organization seems to give itself so much freedom in it's affiliations can I assume you would extend these to us? Your groups current surrender terms simply appear to be the work of tyrants that wish to impose their will on others but they are the work of rational tyrants. When you factor in the ramblings of the Star Fractions general memberbase it seems to be the work of someone with multiple personalities. I think this illustrates why the "war" has dragged on beyond CYI's ability to undock and fight it. Crausaum you are a deeply confused man. At the moment we're talking about an unconditional surrender on your part to allow your alliance to try and gather some tiny iota of capability in a period of rebuilding. Thats all. Were aren't "offering" you things. This is not a market stall and you aren't haggling over the price of bread. You have one choice to make now and thats: either formally surrender to us - or refuse to surrender and listen to us declare a complete victory over your forces regardless. If you choose the former and provide a respectful surrender document you will be allowed to rebuild and conduct your industrial and trade interests as independent capsule pilots without further involvement of Star Fraction vessels. If you choose the latter and refuse to surrender then we'll declare complete victory in any case while maintaining an ongoing casus beli that will allow us to return at any point in the future to hit you again when your alliance shows signs of life. Thats your choice. Stop wriggling and make it. Star Fraction is recruiting
Kunte Kinte	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:36:00 - [43] Edited by: Kunte Kinte on 08/02/2007 04:34:59 Hurry and surrender so they can beat up on another weak guild and make more forum posts. KK
Phantomas Gallente INTAKI UNION	Posted - 2007.02.08 07:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Crausaum ... and others that attempt to bar access to areas of space based on imagined culture (Intaki Union). Interesting the Intaki Syndicate/Intaki Culture is an imaginary thing now? Our culture may be in its death throws our language, beliefs, and ancestry almost forgotten... soon I fear Crausaums efforts to paint fact into realms of fantasy will gain to many sympathetic hearts and minds. We must as a people act or the Federation will in very real sense destroy us. [2006.04.30 19:30:23] Vremaja Idama > For it is by men of action as yourself that we as Intaki will find our way into the future.
Monty Tomasi Phoenix Wing	Posted - 2007.02.08 08:42:00 - [45] DonÆt worry Phantomas old chap, your sterling efforts in the Onion are of such a pedigree when it comes to dealing with Intaki issues - for most pilots phrases along the lines of ôwould not touch it with a barge poleö spring to mind. Personally whenever someone mentions the Onion I have a mental image of a latrine sailing gracefully through the air, tumbling, tumbling in to the waiting arms of a windmill. As for the Star Fraction, I do not believe them to be an organisation with whom it is possible to have a meaningful dialogue. With such communication is possible only through violence, a sad state of affairs but then again the Cluster is blighted with many such post-human devolving back to the animals we evolved from. At a time and place of my choosing my words will reveal the actions taken place to support them, please stand by and thank you for your patience.
Iajatsu Seppeku	Posted - 2007.02.09 06:58:00 - [46] Edited by: Iajatsu Seppeku on 09/02/2007 07:02:02 Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Intaki Union will break you again and again as needed. Wow, i jsut noticed this and could't help but post the following reply: HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA. one night before SF jioned the war, after loosing lots of ships t us, IU hid in a system, diocking and undocking, while a single alt character that was an alliance meber 'camped' them. Wow, they were scared. We, on the other hand, were not. PS: this post was supposed to have read as from Durok TOrn of CYI, i hate that it defaults to my alt PPS: it is jsut a game, some of you guys take it WAAAAY to seriously
Durok Torn	Posted - 2007.02.09 07:07:00 - [47] Originally by: Iajatsu Seppeku Edited by: Iajatsu Seppeku on 09/02/2007 07:02:02 Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Intaki Union will break you again and again as needed. Wow, i jsut noticed this and could't help but post the following reply: HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA. one night before SF jioned the war, after loosing lots of ships t us, IU hid in a system, diocking and undocking, while a single alt character that was an alliance meber 'camped' them. Wow, they were scared. We, on the other hand, were not. PS: this post was supposed to have read as from Durok TOrn of CYI, i hate that it defaults to my alt PPS: it is jsut a game, some of you guys take it WAAAAY to seriously Appologies, this should have read as being posted by durok torn. PS: it's jsut a game, some of you take it WAAAAY to seriously
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.09 07:13:00 - [48] Originally by: Iajatsu Seppeku Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Intaki Union will break you again and again as needed. Wow, i jsut noticed this and could't help but post the following reply: HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA. one night before SF jioned the war, after loosing lots of ships t us, IU hid in a system, diocking and undocking, while a single alt character that was an alliance meber 'camped' them. Wow, they were scared. We, on the other hand, were not. And that is precisely the behavior that Cyrene Initiative pilots are now using. So if you assume that this is a tactic used by those who are "scared," then CYI is definitely afraid. If CYI continues to lose manpower, ships and the ability to make money, Intaki Union will probably break them. A wise director would have seen this coming and been willing to make peace with SF in order to prevail against IU. However, CYI does not have a wise director. It has a very stubborn and vain one. Now it may be too late. Time will tell. _
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.09 11:17:00 - [49] Edited by: Hardin on 09/02/2007 11:18:33 I have to admit I am impressed by Cyrene's willingness to soldier on despite the odds. Despite the Star Fraction mockery it shows a backbone which I doubt they expected to face. Good work Cyrene. Reading between the lines Star Fraction posts here seem to indicate a growing frustration with the turn the war has taken. By denying Star Fraction their surrender and sticking to your ideals you have already won a victory in this war. I wonder how much longer Star Fraction will spend on this fruitless cause and when we can expect their 'total victory' announcement that CYI are 'dead' and that they are moving on to their next target. Stick to your beliefs for they can never be destroyed and remember - that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.09 11:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Hardin I have to admit I am impressed by Cyrene's willingness to soldier on despite the odds. Despite the Star Fraction mockery it shows a backbone which I doubt they expected to face. Good work Cyrene. Reading between the lines Star Fraction posts here seem to indicate a growing frustration with the turn the war has taken. By denying Star Fraction their surrender and sticking to your ideals you have already won a victory in this war. I wonder how much longer Star Fraction will spend on this fruitless cause and when we can expect their announcement that CYI are 'dead' and that they are moving on to their next target. Stick to your beliefs for they can never be destroyed and remember - that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger... If this is what you consider backbone Hardin, I'll be sorely disappointed when we come for you.

Mebrithiel Ju'wien Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:02:00 - [51] Edited by: Mebrithiel Ju''wien on 09/02/2007 12:00:40 Originally by: Nekumi If this is what you consider backbone Hardin, I'll be sorely disappointed when we come for you. If you do decide to take on their juggernaut of Imperial brutism, pop me a bell. I've fought these heathens many times, but my old corporation was always too small to prove much of a challenge to the combined forces of CVA, NOS, Huzzah and their allied corporations of lower Domain and Providence. If I can't fight alongside you, I'd be happy to advise based on past interactions. I'd hate to see SF throw themselves impotently at a fully entreched enemy such as CVA and theirs. "But here is the smell of the blood still and all the perfumes of Khanid will not sweeten this little rose"
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:21:00 - [52] Edited by: Hardin on 09/02/2007 12:21:31 Originally by: Nekumi If this is what you consider backbone Hardin, I'll be sorely disappointed when we come for you. Hah I find it funny that a Star Fraction pilot should ask a question about backbone considering their recent history of war declarations. Rest assured that the CVA is looking forward to Star Fraction finally making good on their recent threats. Of course I really doubt you Star Fraction anarchists have the guts to face CVA on your own so am also expecting the usual crew of wannabe pirates (Black Rabbits), mercs and general Star Fraction hangers on (Revan et al) to get involved too. Star Fraction is a joke. We have beaten you before and we shall do so again. We look forward to your war dec and look forward to seeing how many lackeys you bring to the party too because it will certainly be fun to crush you once and for all... Amarr Victor ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.09 13:39:00 - [53] Originally by: Hardin Edited by: Hardin on 09/02/2007 12:21:31 Originally by: Nekumi If this is what you consider backbone Hardin, I'll be sorely disappointed when we come for you. Hah I find it funny that a Star Fraction pilot should ask a question about backbone considering their recent history of war declarations. Rest assured that the CVA is looking forward to Star Fraction finally making good on their recent threats. Of course I really doubt you Star Fraction anarchists have the guts to face CVA on your own so am also expecting the usual crew of wannabe pirates (Black Rabbits), mercs and general Star Fraction hangers on (Revan et al) to get involved too. Star Fraction is a joke. We have beaten you before and we shall do so again. We look forward to your war dec and look forward to seeing how many lackeys you bring to the party too because it will certainly be fun to crush you once and for all... Amarr Victor There was no question Hardin. When I cradle your smouldering corpse in my arms, I will weep for you as I weep for all those like you. Your time is coming, tell your God to ready for blood.
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.09 13:54:00 - [54] Ah fighting talk warms my heart. But I will not bother wasting many more words verbally sparring with you Star Fraction stooge... The outcome will be decided in space. We wait with interest... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR

Karass Sayfo Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.02.09 14:45:00 - [55] ((Thread cleaned from OOC and off-topic posts. Please remain on-topic in relation to the OP )) Karass Sayfo, Lt. _______ forum rules \| IGS rules \| COAD rules \| [email protected]

Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.02.09 15:12:00 - [56] I am not sure why there is still a problem. Cyrene initiative seemed to have stated that the only reason they haven't surrendered is the unfair terms they thought SF wanted. It has emerged that those were infact not the terms demanded and much more reasonable ones are available. Therefore it seems logical to me that cyrene should just surrender to SF and carry on the fight against the Intaki Union, a far inferior military force who should not pose much of a threat to any half organised corp. Or am I missing something?
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:15:00 - [57] Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 09/02/2007 16:13:06 Originally by: Kehmor the Intaki Union, a far inferior military force who should not pose much of a threat to any half organized corp. you know i still use those two tier 2 invulnerability fields harvested from the wreck of your raven? they have served me well since we defeated the old Blood Inq, twice while you were in it and three time total between IU and AM. Jusica Universi(sp?) said almost the same about us not being a threat when we went to war with Phoenix Wing just before we attacked them. She of course has eaten her words with the bitter spice of experience. I will add that a lot of the reason CYI failed was due to disorganization and the unwillingness to risk ones personal assets for their corp mates success. Self-centered tactics designed to escape will always equate failure to succeed in a war against an enemy that is dedicated. So in a sense your comment does have a kernel of truth for all the insipid flame attempt it was. A better-organized force is always more effective and thus more dangerous to one who would attack them. Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think. GLBTA Channel
Krychton Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.09 17:33:00 - [58] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 09/02/2007 16:13:06 since we defeated the old Blood Inq, twice while you were in it and three time total between IU and AM. I don't question or doubt the strength and military prowess of IU, but please don't indulge us with lies. Leaving before the war was finished is defined as abandonment not a victory. Miss informing people is a dangerous route, you lose credibility when you do so. That was a different time though. ---- Krychton 065 If this is all a dream, don't wake me up.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.02.09 18:07:00 - [59] Everyone loses ships, except cowards.
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2007.02.09 18:25:00 - [60] Originally by: Krychton Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 09/02/2007 16:13:06 since we defeated the old Blood Inq, twice while you were in it and three time total between IU and AM. I don't question or doubt the strength and military prowess of IU, but please don't indulge us with lies. Leaving before the war was finished is defined as abandonment not a victory. Miss informing people is a dangerous route, you lose credibility when you do so. That was a different time though. no actually there was one point when blood inq actually paid out a huge surrender dividend. And when it was Blood Inq backing the VF war you didn't have to pay out, your guy's loot paid for the alliance warfare entirely. If you feel I am lieing, though it is a matter of public record all three time, and that it is "dangerous" feel free to contact concord officials at your leisure. I'm not saying you werenÆt/arenÆt capable pilots, I am also not disagreeing with KehemorageÆs greater point that organization is key, what I am saying is that Intaki Union's prowess is proven and visible to the public and I took a little shot at Kehmorage's bitter little flame. But please don't try to sell your losses as anything other than losses. I'm not gloating, but it is what happened. I respect pilots who fight a lot more than pilots who troll, the former Blood Inq. for all the vampire blood play did fight as the kills on both sides attest. Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think. GLBTA Channel



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