A short test to get more reliable numbers:

Templar II with an all V Thannatos with 5 FSU II and 5 DDA II is roughly 1445 dps (only main weapon). Tested against a target with ~450k ehp, so the error should be pretty low.

Thats quite sad damage, considering that a tranq thanny with 5 DDA and 5 DCU and all V is about 3214 damage.

The secondary weapon does roughly the same dps as the primary (damage per hit ~2x, and reload time also 2x), so assuming you would constantly spam the missiles, and would magically not need to reload, then you would still be only at ~2900 dps, which is still 10% below tranq values.

This is just too low.
Carriers got quite a nerf with the removal of the drone bay and more importantly with the removal of their logistic abilities. And dps was never the reason to bring a carrier anyway. They need more dps if they are supposed to be useful.

A short test to get more reliable numbers:

Templar II with an all V Thannatos with 5 FSU II and 5 DDA II is roughly 1445 dps (only main weapon). Tested against a target with ~450k ehp, so the error should be pretty low.

Thats quite sad damage, considering that a tranq thanny with 5 DDA and 5 DCU and all V is about 3214 damage.

The secondary weapon does roughly the same dps as the primary (damage per hit ~2x, and reload time also 2x), so assuming you would constantly spam the missiles, and would magically not need to reload, then you would still be only at ~2900 dps, which is still 10% below tranq values.

This is just too low.
Carriers got quite a nerf with the removal of the drone bay and more importantly with the removal of their logistic abilities. And dps was never the reason to bring a carrier anyway. They need more dps if they are supposed to be useful.

Interesting. I thought they were supposed to warp after you and be abandonable now. Also, you can type /moveme and choose C-6.

I feel like a roll carriers could fill is the one of the utility capital and allow them to field 3 flights of support fighters

There already exist ewar ships that compared to carriers are very cheap, easy to skill, fast and agile.

So to make up for the drawbacks, carriers would have to be much more power in that role than the ewar ships.

While that would give carriers at least a role they can fulfill, I think that there are too many drawbacks:

-Difficult to balance since this would bring a whole new level of ewar to eve. And ewar already is quite strong, not sure how much fun fleets are against capital-damps and capital-ecm, and how to balance them. at least this would need extensive testing.

-There already are specialized ships for that niche, they should keep this as their own role.

-many players have skilled carriers because they want the dps (most for pve reasons), changing their role from dps to ewar would mean their ships and skills are now useless to them.

T2 triage in its current form on the test server is missing the 'Capacitor need reduction for remote assistance modules -20%' bonus.
Is that intended or a bug?

Test server Triage stats

TQ Triage stats

what is HAW supposed to be? These anti-subcap capital guns?
In that case I dont like the idea. Its too complicated, messes too much with existing roles, and has no advantage to the simpler solution. Just increase fighter damage and remove the stacking penalty from FSU. Then carriers are fine.

I doubt your 4k dps on the nid, as I mentioned earlier, a thanny with 5 DDA II und 5 FSU II does around 1445 with the main weapon. secondary is about the same dps (maybe 5% more). So spamming the missiles on cooldown (which is not possible because of reload) should not be more then 3k. faction modules are not that much better. maybe 3.3k with full faction.

Secondly:
You realize that the main role of the dread still is big damage against large targets? The ability to also shoot subcaps for still very good damage, is just a bonus that adds flexibility, not the main reason for bringng a dread. The carrier on the other hand has no other use than shooting subcaps, so obviously it should be better there.

On tranq, dreads are widely used for their damage abilities, obviously, being stuck for 5 minutes does not mean that they arent competetive outside wormhole space. They already are competetive. And on tranq they dont have the subcaps weapons at all.
Carrier on the oder side, are never used as damage dealers with fighters. And on Tranq their damage is even better then now on sisi.

your calculations are WAY off, I got 3660 on a maxxed out thanny with 4 normal dda's with firbolgs (highest dps drone) easily 4k with faction lows.

and the use of a dread as a anti capital weapon is not what i'm contesting, i'm contesting the subcap version as not being competative, and why should I do that in a dread and not just undock a carrier instead, it's not like the dread can swap to capital weapon mid fight?

1. None of the Minmatar Carrier Skills seem to apply to mods fitted to the Lif.

2. It appears the Lif will be wholly underwhelming even with the cap booster charge bonus in place.


The issue still seems to stem from a couple things:

1. With sub-capitals, there are actual uses for non-tank slots.

2. An apostle can fit 2 Cap Armor Repairers while still attaining high resistances. To achieve the same rep amount a Lif needs to fit a shield boost amplifier.

2a. If the capacitor booster amount bonus is used, the Lif needs to fit a capacitor booster, removing yet another tank slot.

2c. If a Ninazu uses the capacitor booster amount bonus, it does not use up a tank slot.

3. Apostle/Minokava receive capacitor amount bonuses, while at the same time receiving a repair amount bonus.

3a. Lif/Ninazu receive the capacitor boost amount bonus, while receiving a cycle time bonus. The cap use is a lot increased if compared to the amarr/caldari counterparts. The cap boost amount bonus does not appear to make up for it at all. In fact, a single remote shield transfer uses the same cap in about 3 seconds that the booster can provide in 12 seconds.

This seems to make the gallente, and especially the minmatar FAX, pretty much useless.

I don't agree, a dread that equips sub capital weaponry is comitted to that rule for the duration of combat. i'm saying that a carrier is superior in this aspect, and if you have access to all the skillpoints and isk needed, I will take a carrier for that role, if a dread is the only ship you have skills and isk for i understand ur reasoning more.

why is a carrier superior? it has no tracking component , orbit a dread at 500 and it's useless even with the new subcap weapons, barring a stasis webifier and a huge sig radius. (except for the phoenix)

obviusly it has less hp, but for a scenario like hit n run, or black ops, I see a carrier being WAY more effective as tank is less of a criteria. and it can push same if not more dps as a subcap dread.

your mentality on this is that a dread should be happy they can shoot subcaps at all?

the reason I wanted more out of this is because I do small gang pvp with 2-5 players w alts, so we don't have the luxury of putting X number of people in bloated and sub optimal ships.

I was hoping for a higher reward from fitting subcap guns and being sieged for 5 minutes than 4k ish dps.

and nids will be far superior to black ops for my fleet sieze bracket, 4k dps per carrier is vastly superior to any black ops ship, nevermind the far superior tank etc, i'm not saying nerf carriers, i'm saying buff sub cap dreads, take away the need for sieging while doing sub cap weapons.

or add the ability to carry 2 sets of weapons, and a ability to swap between them like a svipul with a significant cooldown (let's say 5 minutes)

also it's worth keeping in mind that they are REMOVING a dreads ability to fuckblap subcaps and giving them about the same a current carrier can deliver with full application bonus's applied. I personally would like a bigger return on the removal of a game feature which was cruical to small pvp groups like mine in dealing with being heavily outnumbered.

I noticed that the Capital Ancillary Shield Booster doesn't even require Capital Shield Operation skill, which is not consistent with other capital modules. Also, the T2 25m plate requires only Hull Upgrades I, which in combination with the former issue leads me to believe that skill requirements of new capital modules aren't well thought of or balanced.