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Grammaticus DeVere
CryoTech Engineering
Silent Requiem
2
   |
Posted - 2011.12.18 13:35:00 -
[31] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:mining barges are cheap hunks of scrap metal supporting a ore processing machine, how much tank do you think they should have? if you want to mine in high sec in safety use a battleship, or go mine in low or null where you at least have to pay attention and can realistically deal with hostile (anyone in system).
People that expect to mine in safety in empire in exhumers are greedy and out of touch with the modern game. Adapt or die is never a more appropriate mantra than in this instance.
Lady Spank states 'adapt or die'...and then ignores the fact that in that case (were it possible) miners would have adapted their ships with more tank and even some gank (without affecting the mining abilities) to be able to defend themselves rather than providing simple juicy targets.
How much tank should they have? Enough to be able to survive!
Oh wait, that might mean that suiciding stops being risk free, and then the gankers would have to adapt or die...
G |
Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
535
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 14:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
No dummy. Adapting means not using a hulk in high sec where it is easily killed no matter how you fit it.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Goose99
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
320
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 15:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:No dummy. Adapting means not using a hulk in high sec where it is easily killed no matter how you fit it.
Exactly. If it's broken in its intended role, don't fix it, just don't use it in its intended role. Lol@ gallante and hybrids, btw. |
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 15:20:00 -
[34] - Quote
Khaiton LaSalle wrote:Before I start, I have not searched the forums about this topic. I want to rant a bit. Griefers and mining barges. Have the powers that be ever been given grief about how easy it is to kill mining barges? I know that the game is suppose to have a level of risk, yadda, yadda, yadda. But can we not get a buff of the barges so that we can at least fight back a little bit? I lost a covetor to a Thrasher in 10 seconds. I did not even get a chance to launch my drones! So, if it has not already been beaten to death, can we all scream at CCP to buff the barges. Thank you for your support. 
Looking at the killmail I can't help but notice you fit for all out mining. Which is fine. You can fit however you like. But this means that if someone attacks you with a thrasher, you will pop almost instantly.
A barge is a very specialized ship, and surviving combat isn't what its designed for. But this is EVE, and you always have options.
You could mine in a higher sec system so Concord gets to you sooner.
You could fit for EHP and carry combat/ECM drones and hope for the best.
You could mine in a BS; The Rokh is a great mining ship.
Or you can continue doing what your doing now, and just accept that you may have to cover an occasional lost ship. |
Goose99
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
320
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 15:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cindy Marco wrote:Khaiton LaSalle wrote:Before I start, I have not searched the forums about this topic. I want to rant a bit. Griefers and mining barges. Have the powers that be ever been given grief about how easy it is to kill mining barges? I know that the game is suppose to have a level of risk, yadda, yadda, yadda. But can we not get a buff of the barges so that we can at least fight back a little bit? I lost a covetor to a Thrasher in 10 seconds. I did not even get a chance to launch my drones! So, if it has not already been beaten to death, can we all scream at CCP to buff the barges. Thank you for your support. Looking at the killmail I can't help but notice you fit for all out mining. Which is fine. You can fit however you like. But this means that if someone attacks you with a thrasher, you will pop almost instantly. A barge is a very specialized ship, and surviving combat isn't what its designed for. But this is EVE, and you always have options. You could mine in a higher sec system so Concord gets to you sooner. You could fit for EHP and carry combat/ECM drones and hope for the best. You could mine in a BS; The Rokh is a great mining ship. Or you can continue doing what your doing now, and just accept that you may have to cover an occasional lost ship.
Read my previous post:
Goose99 wrote:The new and improved Catalyst pumps out 800 dps overheated (no, you won't need those guns later). An exhumer, much less barge, won't tank it no matter what you do. Just be like everyone else and run ratting bots deep within the blue ass of a large alliance, where you don't see hostiles for weeks on end. 
Fittings won't help, even against a dessie. Barge is going the way of the Gallante. |
Nor Tzestu
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 15:37:00 -
[36] - Quote
I don't have a ton to add to this. Most high sec ganks are caused by people not paying attention. That said as someone who in real life works with REAL mining equipment I can tell you matter of fact you aren't going to find equipment that is more heavy duty or robustly built. Real mining gear takes abuse and stress that simply implodes most regular "heavy duty" grade construction equipment in a matter of days if not hours.
Do I think miners should be able to be ganked? Absolutely. I also don't think It should be a matter of simply pressing f1 with shitfit destroyer either. If I was going to "fix" the Hulk/Mackinaw I would simply remove a mining bonus of some type, and add a fitting/cap/effectiveness bonus to shield booster's. Something along the lines of what the new tier 3 BC's get in order to fit large guns. Pretty simple fix with a penalty to mining would seem to at least give the Hulk a chance to ride out an attack IF they are paying attention and keeping themselves aligned. IF not they should die in a spectacular fire with what is still a pretty small buffer. Sure the miner would have to be paying attention and if they see a suspicious ship land on grid shutdown a laser or two and fire up the shield booster. I don't see a problem with that. This would still make "afk" miner kills really easy and give those guys that are actually at the keyboard a chance at least. |
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 16:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:Read my previous post: Goose99 wrote:The new and improved Catalyst pumps out 800 dps overheated (no, you won't need those guns later). An exhumer, much less barge, won't tank it no matter what you do. Just be like everyone else and run ratting bots deep within the blue ass of a large alliance, where you don't see hostiles for weeks on end. Fittings won't help, even against a dessie. Barge is going the way of the Gallante.
That really depends on the situation.
An EHP fit would give him ~15 seconds to against your 800 DPS. Which would have saved him in 0.7, and perhaps even 0.6.
But in this case he was destroyed by a low SP char in an auto thrasher. So we are talking more like 200 DPS or maybe even a bit less. Where an EHP fit would have given him well over a minute and Concord would have saved him. |
Billionaire Carebear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 18:35:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mind I am a solo player, with no intention of joining a corporation, but, is this not where corporation mining comes into play as team play has some people mining, and some people patrolling, and everybody sharing in the profits? And I think you can just form a temporary fleet with somebody and do the same thing? And what is the comparison on a tanked hulk versus a battleship or other large ship fitted for mining?
Yes, I Am A n00b. Please don't hold it against me. |
Isan'na
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 20:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Bloody forums ate my post.
15 seconds for a single Catalyst to kill you? No. Well, if you're untanked, sure, but then you deserve to die. If you use the Tank fit that I posted earlier, the 28k EHP against 800 DPS gives a 35 second survival time - before overheating or jamming. ECM will save you outright, and it has the chance for two cycles, while overheating will up that to a 40 second survival time, or Time To Kill (TTK)
So that just means that they'll have to bring two Catalysts, right? Well, then they're down to a 17.5/20 second TTK, which is still leaning towards the safe side without ECM drones factored in. If there are three, it'll take 11.6/ 13.3 seconds, but if you get the jam you're safe. A flight of light ECM has a 40% jam chance and a flight of mediums has 52%, so it's just about a coin toss. However, the Catalysts would probably have to synchronize fire, or risk CONCORD showing up early for two of them.
Additionally, all of this is before leadership boosts, as Emperor Salazar pointed out earlier. You don't even need a full booster - just someone with the leadership skills trained up enough to give the armor/shield HP bonuses will give a noticeable effect. And for comparison's sake, take a look at the EHP of common combat cruisers. They generally fall between 20k and 40k, so the Hulk is comparable tank-wise. If there was enough grid to fit a LSE, you'd be putting it's EHP up to about 50k, or about the same as a shield Cane.
PS. Fully gank fit Catalyst with Neutron II's and Void, WITH 5% HARDWIRINGS hits 776. But it can't fit tackle. So that analysis is actually optimistic for the Catalysts since a more realistic DPS is 663 with overheated Ions with web/scram or 690 with a split Ion/Neutron and just a scram....
|
Goose99
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
320
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 20:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
I wasn't aware OP's barge comes with more than 1 mid? Oh you meant 200 mil hulks? I'm sure the ganker can invest in a nice Thorax or Brutix for that... |
Isan'na
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 20:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:I wasn't aware OP's barge comes with more than 1 mid? Oh you meant 200 mil hulks? I'm sure the ganker can invest in a nice Thorax or Brutix for that...
I try to address the people screaming "OMG SO OP A CATALYST CAN KILL A HULK!!!1!11!" in a rational manner and you come in doing your usual deflection and biased bullshit. Very classy. Either way, a overheated Brutix w/ Hammerheads pumps out just under 1.2k DPS. Against a 28k EHP ship, that's still going to take 23 seconds, or about enough time for Concord to respond. The point is that if you actually tank the ship, a ganker is not going to be able to solo you. And if they want to bring friends, I don't really see the problem...
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
1451
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 21:46:00 -
[42] - Quote
Khaiton LaSalle wrote:Before I start, I have not searched the forums about this topic. I want to rant a bit.
Griefers and mining barges. Have the powers that be ever been given grief about how easy it is to kill mining barges?
I know that the game is suppose to have a level of risk, yadda, yadda, yadda. But can we not get a buff of the barges so that we can at least fight back a little bit?
I lost a covetor to a Thrasher in 10 seconds. I did not even get a chance to launch my drones!
What was your fit?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Aggressive Nutmeg
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 01:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
You can get over 35,000 EHP on a Hulk.
Too easy to pop you say?
More like lazy, greedy Hulk pilots. |
Baden Luskan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 11:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ive thought CCP is due to release a new class of mining ship. The way the Eve climate is these days, the obvious step any person would take is a mining barde with better defence. Any ingenuitive person in Eve, if they could, would have taken the mining barge and buffed it up to defend itself.
The result would be something like a battleship hull mining barge, with very simular stats as the current mining barges have for mining, with the few extra module slots it would have from being a bit bigger going towards defence.
Maybe giving them 5 high slots now, but make it to where is you try to put more than 3 strip miners on the ship, it caps out. That means 2 high slots would be for defence (gotta kill rats when they spawn in yoru belt). Also give them more mids for a shield tank. No addational low slots however. Maybe give a bonus to shield resists with the ship.
Of course, nothing is free, and the cost of this ship should reflect its better survivability. I would expect the suggestion above to cost 2 to 3 times as much as a Hulk currently does.
Maybe this is not the best way to solve the problem, but the problem needs ot be solved. Mining barges are just too easy to kill. If CCp wants ot keep paying customers, then you have to treat players fairly. Every Eve player knows they can lose their ship at any time (or they should). However, any normal player will feel cheater when a ship that costs 230-250 million isk is destroyed in moments by a ship that costs 1/3 that. The average player will feel cheated and probably find another game to go play. I know that does not affect you, Joe Ganker, but it hurts CCP. Its hard to keep a game alive if it can not sustain an influx of new players. |
Dracko Malus
Starfrackers Inc
Quantum Forge
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 11:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
It's amazing where a few of you folks stopped reading and keep yapping over a Hulk's tank while the OP clearly states he is flying a Covetor.
Baden Luskan wrote:I would expect the suggestion above to cost 2 to 3 times as much as a Hulk currently does.
I'm guessing 600mil would not quite be an interesting barge what so ever.
Hulks are fine and are already overpriced.. people just need to learn how and where to mine instead of diving into an anthill covered in honey and then moaning that they got bitten. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
493
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 12:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
Khaiton LaSalle wrote:Before I start, I have not searched the forums about this topic. I want to rant a bit. Griefers and mining barges. Have the powers that be ever been given grief about how easy it is to kill mining barges? I know that the game is suppose to have a level of risk, yadda, yadda, yadda. But can we not get a buff of the barges so that we can at least fight back a little bit? I lost a covetor to a Thrasher in 10 seconds. I did not even get a chance to launch my drones! So, if it has not already been beaten to death, can we all scream at CCP to buff the barges. Thank you for your support.
Stop mining.
If you really want to have some impact about mining barges just stop mining.
The day where you'll figure out mining actually is not worthy you'll start playing the game, leave mining to alliance bots in null, they put real cash on those so they can not be detected, why would they let you go there and ruin their business?
You want to easy win isk? -get cloacky stuff cyno capable, find some supercap rating, contact PL and negociate price, open cyno.
Win more in 1 cyno than you'll ever win mining 5h/day for 1 year.
Profit |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
493
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 12:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:You can get over 35,000 EHP on a Hulk.
Too easy to pop you say?
More like lazy, greedy Hulk pilots.
35k EHP ?
PIck Tornado, equip T2 1400mm, hail or faction ammo (2 rounds is enough)
Shoot.
/bye Hulk
|
Sandrestal
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 14:26:00 -
[48] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:Is this your main? Where do you usually mine? I'd be happy to come and provide security for you.
Yeah, I guess after getting wanked by Goonites, Test pilots would want something easier to shoot at  |
Ooda
London Elektricity
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 17:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
So you need 2 fitting mods and near-perfect skills to have a 200 mil T2 ship with a decent tank for highsec, although it is supposed to be resilent by nature? You won't be able to install a single medium sized shield extender II on a medium sized hull without a fitting mod, and this should be right? I have to note that one down :D
Well, I hope CCP will change this, just to see delicious tears from elitist mining-gankers :D
|
Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
541
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 17:36:00 -
[50] - Quote
It's designed to tank 0.0 rats, not for high sec scrubs.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Vaurion Infara
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 18:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
I love carebear QQ threads. When I'm having a bad day, I come here and laugh at how many people play Eve in the most boring way possible. =D |
Billionaire Carebear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 18:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Vaurion Infara wrote:I love carebear QQ threads. When I'm having a bad day, I come here and laugh at how many people play Eve in the most boring way possible. =D
Eve has a great deal to offer, and I plan to experience a lot of it, in due course. I'm 6 months in and just starting to branch away from mining, however I will continue to mine off and on as needed during the rest of the game. I'm just now getting a 'salvage' barge fitted out so that I can go clean up the rat wrecks that I make while mining missions. And then there is research and manufacturing to get into - and I think a use for a bit of the salvage I get is to be used in manufacturing, along with ore I mine myself. Of course I am learning defensive skills along the way - so though I may not be engaging in PVP, I am still experiencing combat. Some people might think that playing EVE for the combat only is the most boring way possible to play the game.
Yes, I Am A n00b. Please don't hold it against me. |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 18:48:00 -
[53] - Quote
For all the banter back and forth on this...the underlying issue is that the Hulk is supposed to be the go-to ship for mining in HOSTILE space. It has the resists to do so. The problem is that any attempt to fit more than insignificant amounts of buffer to the thing to survive attempts at ganking (as opposed to the active tank usually used to deal with rats) runs head-on into powergrid problems that are so extreme only a MAPC can fix them.
To wit:
I own an AB Wolf with a 400mm plate + 2 projectile rigs + 150mm ACs and no powergrid mods. The Hulk, which uses MEDIUM rigs and has roughly 3x the mass of a Drake (Hulk mass = 40mil KG, Drake mass = ~14mil KG), needs a MAPC to be able to fit a MSE along with its strip miners. Does this smell to you? It sure does to me.
30k EHP of buffer is not too much for something that basically IS cruiser-sized. Most T2 cruisers have no trouble reaching the 30k mark even without a resist bonus as extreme as the Hulk's 7.5%/level, and those that do get a resist bonus (Sacrilege, I'm looking at you :-) come close to that mark "out-of-the-box".
TL;DR: Just give the Hulk about 15MW extra output from its reactor, so that buffer tanked Hulks would go from "theorycrafting curiosity" to "something people actually might use". |
Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 19:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:For all the banter back and forth on this...the underlying issue is that the Hulk is supposed to be the go-to ship for mining in HOSTILE space. It has the resists to do so. The problem is that any attempt to fit more than insignificant amounts of buffer to the thing to survive attempts at ganking (as opposed to the active tank usually used to deal with rats) runs head-on into powergrid problems that are so extreme only a MAPC can fix them.
To wit:
I own an AB Wolf with a 400mm plate + 2 projectile rigs + 150mm ACs and no powergrid mods. The Hulk, which uses MEDIUM rigs and has roughly 3x the mass of a Drake (Hulk mass = 40mil KG, Drake mass = ~14mil KG), needs a MAPC to be able to fit a MSE along with its strip miners. Does this smell to you? It sure does to me.
30k EHP of buffer is not too much for something that basically IS cruiser-sized. Most T2 cruisers have no trouble reaching the 30k mark even without a resist bonus as extreme as the Hulk's 7.5%/level, and those that do get a resist bonus (Sacrilege, I'm looking at you :-) come close to that mark "out-of-the-box".
TL;DR: Just give the Hulk about 15MW extra output from its reactor, so that buffer tanked Hulks would go from "theorycrafting curiosity" to "something people actually might use".
You do know you can already reach 30k ehp on a Hulk? Right?
Even with all the 'fitting' issues.
Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
[zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Evil: Sorry. -á |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 19:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Skimmed the previous posts and seems like there is some confusion between "mining barges" and "exhumers".
Mining barges are cheap, disposable ships for use in high-sec only. Except during Hulkageddon and the short-lived Goon Gallente ice interdiction, they are actually rarely ganked and you'll make more than enough ISK mining to replace the occasional loss. No big deal - but don't fit T2 rigs and modules to a mining barge.
Exhumers are expensive, have more slots, and can mount a reasonable tank (albeit trading mining efficiency for the additional tank). Fair enough. Logi support actually works with exhumers (not mining barges), so train up a support alt.
During Hulkageddon, park your exhumer or mining barge at a station and go do something else for a week. During the Goon ice interdiction, the smart move was simply to go mine something else.
All that said, yes, mining barges (not exhumers) could do with a buff.
The Retriever needs more CPU to better fit the two strip miners or ice harvesters (currently, it has the same CPU has the single turret Procurer). All three mining barges - Covetor, Retriever, and Procurer - would benefit from a bit more PG.
Also, the Covetor has virtually the same long skill training time as the Hulk, thanks to the requirements of Mining Barge V and Astrogeology V. This should be reduced to Mining Barge IV and Astrogeology IV, esp. given that Mining Barge is a Per/Wil skill and Astrogeology is an Int/Mem skill. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
178
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 19:51:00 -
[56] - Quote
Frankly I think they should remove mining barges from the game entirely. Mining is one of the worst examples of gameplay that I've seen in any game. And while they're at it, fix the S&I and POS UIs.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 20:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
Korg Tronix wrote:
You do know you can already reach 30k ehp on a Hulk? Right?
Confirmed. I can fit a Hulk with a 30K EHP tank, and a 108 EHP/sec shield recharge rate, while still fitting three strip miners in the highs.
No faction or officer stuff - only T2 modules and T1 rigs. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 23:47:00 -
[58] - Quote
I don't have a lot of sympathy for people and their 10k ehp hulks (yay civ shield booster tank!), but seriously the hp on a hulk is pathetic and should probably get a slight boost*. at the very least a bit more pg to fit a MSE.
*to compensate cargo expanders should nerf armor and shield hp as well! because seeing solo hulk ganks makes me lul |
Raiz Nhell
DEEP CORPS
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 00:11:00 -
[59] - Quote
Coming in late on this one but why do people whinge when their stuff gets blown up...
I don't think miners need a buff... they are fine...
I'm a deadset carebear, my pod bleeds rainbow, every time I think I'll put a PvP boat together it is scrap within minutes... whenever I think mining in lowsec is a good idea I have to go and buy another Hulk...
Not a big deal for me, and I dream of the day I get a kill mail... but I'm happy with what I'm doing, and if occasionally I get blown up, I don't whinge that I need more shield/armour tank...
My Hulk is going to be a pretty explosion for someone someday... And I'll enjoy the BOOM as well...
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
85
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 00:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
there should be racial t2 miners :P
so i can go mine with my full matar champ |
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