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Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.14 04:59:00 - [31] POS Based Space Distortion Array that requires Sovereignty and Anchoring 5. Emits a Pulse (say every 60 seconds) that offlines cloaking devices (and maybe Cyno Generators?) within range (say, 10 au). Whether they are warping, stationary, cloaked, or uncloaked will not factor into the module disruption. Shouldn't need anything else. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Got Alliance? Contact me ingame for alliance creation services.
PartyVaN Minmatar The Hand Trade Alliance FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 05:40:00 - [32] Cloaking should cost some significant cap on non covops ships. I MEAN U R LIEK TURNING INVISIBLE WTF!?
Muthsera S.A.S	Posted - 2007.02.14 07:19:00 - [33] I find this argument very disturbing, because very few of you realize what this module really let you do. This module right here, is about the only aspect left in eve that lets a small pvp corp, be able to beat and sometimes dominate a larger and rarely a much larger alliance than your own corp. Large entities have for the longest time been the focus of CCP to let ppl get 0.0 access. I can to a large part understand that argument. But it have on point after point after point been on the expense of small dedicated corps. Trough dedication and skill. This module gives you the capability to take on larger alliances on their own turf, in their homes, in their strong sides. And beat them where they otherwise wouldn't be reachable. That is, it gives you that capability with an offset. It's not the omgwtfpwn the dual mwd or dual ab hac was, it's not the nanoinertia ships that we see now and will be nerfed shortly. And it's not the stabs that was hugely unbalanced. Giving ppl even the slightest possibility to find cloaks. Will ruin the role cloaks have to take on larger alliances. It will die, and your left with roaming gangs. That is so easily stopped these days with a well placed bubble gang. It will make those deep 0.0 homes of large alliances close to impossible to take on. And what your left to beat it with is to outblob it. Which is by all means. Not a very intelligent way of pvping. Although it can be extremely fun. It's more often than not about domination and forcing the other side not to engage. Thus winning the field. The entire role of small 0.0 pvp corps will be close to gone. You'll force the community of dedicated good pvpers even more into larger corps where numbers more often than not will be the end result. I know thats rather narrowed view of the module. But try to look at it like this: When you first start out. Even if you have very good pvp experiance in eve. Your character will close to never be able to take on another good pvper. Reason for that isn't as much tactics or personal skill or stuff like that. It's about the combine amount of it all. each 5% skill you train up, each 5% implant, 10% module, 25% t2 ship, etc etc etc. It all adds up. For so long ccp have given the large alliances/entities the possibility to turn the tide in their favor. The smaller dedicated/skilled pvp corps gets left behind. Each time ccp gives out abilities to consolidate their entity the next step up to pry them out of that hole is twice as high. You always need to keep on toes, keep up your skills to preform. Find new setups, learn the good and the bad with those. While the large entities only have to pile on the same number. The step up to take down a large alliance today is boiled down to a game of grind. I tbh do not want that. But it's what they got over time. When ppl say to me that you shouldn't be able to beat those large alliances with so small numbers. I tell you thats bulls*it, that is as ignorant and redundant argument you shouldn't even be playing this game. You haven't realized at all what eve is really like. The bottom line is. The cloaks have worked fine for the better part of 2 years. It does it's function perfectly. It does what it's suppose to do. It let corps like mine preform it's own role. Highly mobile, deep space, dedicated skilled gangs, who can live independently from any station in 0.0. It gives us the capability to take on much larger alliances. You cannot do that without the unprobeable cloak. It's by all account the only thing left. That lets a small pvp corp pwn a larger alliance. If you take that away. And let a cloaked ship be probed. That role will be gone completely. It will be another nerf in favor to the large entities. Where numbers more than anything matter most. I do not want such a development. Rabble
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 09:50:00 - [34] Originally by: gazarsgo step 1) align to them step 2) turn on mwd and full speed step 3) uncloak them by hitting them step 4) pew pew pew! listen to this man. I lost a lot of cloaked ships this way. If they saw you for a fraction of a second (like when you start cloaking) you are doomed if the other guy is smart. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Caletha	Posted - 2007.02.14 10:00:00 - [35] Originally by: HankMurphy so you wanna nerf cloaks because...? when they cloak you cant see them? hmm... that is a problem. its also THE POINT. ok, sir, if you could take a number. oh and here is a name tag (tag reads: "Thinks cloaks shouldn't cloak so well") sir , if ya could, perhaps you wanna just fall in line in the nerf nano's thread? those ppl are conviced mwds should not make your ship go fast and you could probly get them to bandwagon onto your nerf the moment they finish that thread up. thx and have a nice day Can I put this in my bio? You are the man!
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.14 10:13:00 - [36] I alway's liked the idea of being able to get an inaccurate probing location ( within say 50-100km )from the cloaking field sig or something and use a new type of ship or module that fire's out deph charger type thing's or smart bomb style decloaker, affecting same radius as a dictor bubble maybe.
Natasha Kerensky The Company Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.14 10:26:00 - [37] Originally by: Ecuatoria Why they should work on carriers/ms/titans/ravens even on nanodomis? etc? its just like WCS in old time - quite miserable I'll give you a hint on how to solve your problem. Use the tactical overlay
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.14 10:50:00 - [38] There are two parties whining about this: 1) The carebears. A "powerful" alliance gets a cloaked ship in their favorite ratting system. He chooses to sit there, most likely afk half the time, and then come out of hiding and engage (Note, he is already penalized by high locking time etc). It's mostly one lone player and those alliance CAREBEARS are so TERRIFIED of one player, that they come and cry on forum. Maybe try to make a bait trap for him etc, quite easily taken care of, or god forbid, go npc in a nearby system. If your space gets shut down by one cloaker, then you should really go back to empire. Let's say the imp/proto cloaks get nerfed, well, do you think that a pilgrim and other recons should be nerfed too? Completely eliminating their purpose? Their whole point is to be a pain in the arse, to do guerilla operations, it's a valid warfare tactic in eve, and alliances should learn to deal with it. Just as in real life during war occupation there is always guerilla warfare - you can't have your cake and eat it. 2) The pvpers A lot of npcers fit cloak, and once you enter local they go to a safe and cloak. Well guess what, it's not the cloak that is the problem. If they didn't have a cloak, they could just warp around all the time and then log eventually, you would waste your time searching for them, and they would waste their time warping around and logging. Grief for both sides. If they don't want to be found - well then they won't be found, and they deserve it, since they specifically fitted for it, and they have noticed you in local and went to a safe place. Let's see about the drawbacks of a cloaking device: 1) Can't fight while cloaked, can't perform any hostile action, unless you are a highly specialized recon/covops ship, you can't warp while cloaked either. 2) You get a severe penalty to your scan resolution while your cloaking device is fitted. 3) You move very slow while cloaked. 4) You get decloaked if anything gets under 2km from you. A drone, a corpse, anything. This combines with the 3), makes it fairly easy to get a ship that jumps in and cloaks. 5) You have a recalibration delay when decloaking, so you can't lock anything for some seconds. Unless you are a slow ass npcraven who is not paying attention, that time is most likely more than enough to warp off. Remember - eve is a game which has endless possibilities, one of those possibilities is being able to enjoy the game solo. We are not forced into raidgroups and alliances if we don't want to (unlike other games). If cloaks don't "cloak" as well anymore, then well, all the players who want to do their own thing solo get a big disadvantage. Npcers won't be able to npc anymore without having to join some huge blob that can keep up their pos and protect it. Small scale pvp corps or pvpers won't be able to annoy large alliances anymore because they will just be forced to log off every time they get blobbed. The people who are whining about the cloaks, are the same people who have been whining for years about nerfing vagabonds, interceptors, pilgrims etc. All ships that allow to bypass "the blob" and allow guerilla warfare. So, I hope you had time to read this, even if you are pro-nerfcloak, and think about it a bit. I for one, don't want my favorite game to end up like WoW or Lineage2 where I have to be in a huge group to get anything done at all and can't enjoy the game with a close friend or sometimes solo, when I desire to. N.F.F. Recruitment
Caletha	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:22:00 - [39] Originally by: Ryysa 1) The carebears. A "powerful" alliance gets a cloaked ship in their favorite ratting system. He chooses to sit there, most likely afk half the time, and then come out of hiding and engage (Note, he is already penalized by high locking time etc). It's mostly one lone player and those alliance CAREBEARS are so TERRIFIED of one player, that they come and cry on forum. We had an alliance 'try' this in our home system a few times, there's actually a very easy and good solution for this. If they camp your system with a cloaker, you get a gank squad together and kill their ratters Lets just say, they dont afk-cloak in our system anymore
Goberth Ludwig The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Ecuatoria Why they should work on carriers/ms/titans/ravens even on nanodomis? etc? its just like WCS in old time - quite miserable lmao u never tried pvping with a cloak on have you? - Gob
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:27:00 - [41] One thing though, titans and Moms being able to cloak seem a bit silly to me simply due to sheer size of the babies! I won't complain as soon as you let me cloak outposts :) Originally by: Radeberger If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:01:00 - [42] Yes, cloaked capital ships seem...silly. And about the "cloaked pvper" thing - baiting them is somewhat impractical. Because most time they are afk. Sure you ould try to setup a trap, but you very well might then wait 5 hours for nothing because your target is afk all the time. The effort to setup a trap is too high. Personally I wouldn't see a problem with a 10 minute probe to find a cloaked ship. If you cannot be at the PC log out.
Arte Warspite Developments	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:05:00 - [43] Edited by: Arte on 14/02/2007 13:03:52 I totally disagree with the idea that certain ship classes should be banned from fitting the module in the first place. In a post I did on the ideas and suggestions forum, there was basically a change to how the ships of the covert-ops class worked, but which still kept the penalties in place for the non-covert ops cloaks. It is those that make cloaked ships, be they Titans or Ravens, gimped by the very fact that they fit the cloak in the first place but allowed a lot more lattitude to the covert-ops class of ship itself. IF they ever bring the ability to scan cloaked ships... I think that it would be acceptable as long as it remained chance based (as far as it is now, with skills to improve that chance) and based wholly on the signature radius of the ship being scanned for but did not apply to covert-ops cloaks be the the T2 variant now or a potential T1 variant which is wholly lacking. That is to say, a top skilled pilot scanning for a titan with a proto cloak fitted is likely to have more success then if he is scanning for one with an improved cloak, but is still going to have a very very hard time scanning for another covert-ops frigate or recon cruiser. In either instance, I think that the scan deviation for the result should be large enough (as it is cloaked) so that the cov-ops pilot can get on the same grid but not near enough to uncloak him and wait or choose to bring in a force can then sit on the position and though not know exactly where the cloaker is, could be prepared to take the cloaker on should he decloak or drop a snoop and lock him down if he logs. The cloaked pilot may never know that the covert-ops pilot has made his position so the risk is there for him, even though he may remain safe by virtue of the fact that they are no where near close enough to snag him instantly or decloak him. He then has to align and decloak --> warp to a new safespot or a gate making him vulnerable or remain idle and achieve little but griefing which is where we are at now and is always going to be an issue so long as we have cloak devices in game.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:16:00 - [44] wel titans i think should not be able to cloak. CAuse if you see the texts about them, they cant even aproach planets because they would cause imense devastation only with its own gravity. So finding a cloaked titan would be as complex as seeing if the water in a cup on your ships moves into one direction or other :P If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Kagura Nikon CAuse if you see the texts about them, they cant even aproach planets because they would cause imense devastation only with its own gravity. Btw, this particular flavour text is kinda amusing since they are a good deal smaller than stations which are quite near to planets. Of cource they are probably a bit denser than stations, but I doubt they are MUCH desner than them.
mallina Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:36:00 - [46] Originally by: VJ Maverick We have a disconnect. I'm not arguing agianst you. My first response was to actually add to and bolster your argument. Then we got sidetracked. srry. was 4am or whatever. head hurt, forum whoring mode on full :(
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:00:00 - [47] Capitals might want to be forced to have some sort of capital cloak module... Cloaking of BS and smaller ships is perfectly fine imo, and that's exactly what cloaks are designed to do. They are a non-combat module designed to hide a ship. Don't you think it's retarded if a module that is designed to hide a ship doesn't hide it anymore? You already have local, showing you exactly who is there. You know, it would be kinda funny if there was no local in 0.0, i'd laugh so hard at all the ratters who will /ragequit their accounts :D N.F.F. Recruitment
Lin Dze PsyCorp Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:12:00 - [48] Capital ships shouldn't be allowed to cloak at all. Cloaks should have a 15-30 minute cycle time that you have to manually turn on, then allow the cloak to last for 5-10 seconds after to restart the module. That would prevent the people that log on, cloak up, and then afk while they're at work.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:14:00 - [49] Ryssa is pretty much 100% right in this situation ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2007.02.14 19:02:00 - [50] Edited by: hydraSlav on 14/02/2007 18:59:35 Originally by: Ethyn You sir, are just a little kid who would like all your enjoyment handed to you on a silver plater. You want a kill... EARN IT! Since it is impossible (not "hard", not "unlikely", but impossible) to find a cloaked ship at SS (and i am talking about SS'ed ship here, not cloaking at gates), there is absolutely nothing one can do to "earn it". So, lets rephrase that directed at you, shall we? You sir, are just a little kid who would like your safety handed to you on a silver plater. You want to hide... WORK FOR IT! p.s. flying off to a random SS and hitting cloak while going afk does not constitute work == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2007.02.14 20:30:00 - [51] imo cloak-finding probe should be introduced along with hiding cloaked ships from local, that way at least cloak does not get rendered entirely useless... otherwise it destroys the whole point of using a cloak... you don't need a clock if you are just warping between SS, if you have a clock and still have to do that why would anyone bother with a cloak? -------------------------------------------------- Yes I'm a forum alt, what you going to do about it?
Shozo Sanguinum Fratres	Posted - 2007.02.14 21:19:00 - [52] I think that a nice modification to cloaks should be... - Ships fitted or using non-Covert Ops II cloaking devices can be found via scan probes. Considering the Prototype and Improved are generally what gets used on all non-Covert Ops ships. - Add in a specific ship for each race that has a bonus for finding cloaked ships or a bonus that allows only that ship to use cloak specific probes. This would make you able to find those MS's, BS's, whatever because they can't fit the Cov Ops cloak and you'd need the special ship so that these people aren't 100% vulnerable. Cloaks are meant for hiding in the first place. - Covert Ops ships can't be found when cloaked for the scouting purposes these ships are intended for. Much more nerfing or modification than this would change the idea of cloaking devices and essentially render them useless for the purpose they were intended for. They have speed nerfs, lock time nerfs, loss of a high slot, etc. You can argue that that can be reduced but, that requires a fairly decent amount of time spent training Cloaking V and Covert Ops V. Time that should be rewarded for the investment.
Mudkest	Posted - 2007.02.14 22:01:00 - [53] Originally by: Shardrael please correct me if I am wrong but I believe the lock time penalty is only after decloaking corected, after decloaking you cant lock at all for up to 30 seconds(depends on skill and cloak fitted) fitting a cloak also lowers scan resolution, whether the cloak is active or not(not sure about offlined though) - Though I fly through the Valley of Death... I shall fear no evil. For I am at 80,000 feet and climbing. ~At the entrance to the old SR-71 operating base Kadena, Okinawa
Mudkest	Posted - 2007.02.14 22:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Kagura Nikon wel titans i think should not be able to cloak. CAuse if you see the texts about them, they cant even aproach planets because they would cause imense devastation only with its own gravity. So finding a cloaked titan would be as complex as seeing if the water in a cup on your ships moves into one direction or other :P nerf water in a cup module! -Though I fly through the Valley of Death... I shall fear no evil. For I am at 80,000 feet and climbing. ~At the entrance to the old SR-71 operating base Kadena, Okinawa
VJ Maverick Caldari Maverick Specialized Services	Posted - 2007.02.14 22:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Mudkest Originally by: Shardrael please correct me if I am wrong but I believe the lock time penalty is only after decloaking corected, after decloaking you cant lock at all for up to 30 seconds(depends on skill and cloak fitted) fitting a cloak also lowers scan resolution, whether the cloak is active or not(not sure about offlined though) Offline or not, the very fitting of a cloak to your ship hits you with a huge scan resolution penalty.
Noriath	Posted - 2007.02.14 22:52:00 - [56] I think if anything cloaks need to be boosted. It's just silly that if you warp on top of someone you can instantly lock them and blast away, but if you fit an expensive cloak and creep up on someone at miniscule speeds you aren't allowed to lock them and fire once you decloak. That doesn't make sense...
Ethyn Caldari Wings of Redemption	Posted - 2007.02.15 04:03:00 - [57] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: gazarsgo step 1) align to them step 2) turn on mwd and full speed step 3) uncloak them by hitting them step 4) pew pew pew! listen to this man. I lost a lot of cloaked ships this way. If they saw you for a fraction of a second (like when you start cloaking) you are doomed if the other guy is smart. True assuming, you are that slow when cloaked. I still move fast enough to avoid anyone who is trying to do this. One other disadvantage to having a cloaking device mounted to a non cov-ops ships the tracking lock time adjustment. Scan resolution is the official term. With the cloak added, it will take you 40-50% longer to target. This is especially a problem for BC and up. Ethyn GO Fast or Die!
Strong Badd Trogdor the Burninator Corporation	Posted - 2007.02.15 05:15:00 - [58] Originally by: Ethyn Originally by: Ecuatoria Why they should work on carriers/ms/titans/ravens even on nanodomis? etc? its just like WCS in old time - quite miserable You sir, are just a little kid who would like all your enjoyment handed to you on a silver plater. You want a kill... EARN IT! Ethyn Impossible to earn the kill if the person sits in a SS cloaked.
Trind2222 Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.15 05:45:00 - [59] I don't think we shoud nerf cloke any more but here is a idea: Cloak scaner: Can find cloaked ships depending on the signal radus on the ship, less signal radus on the ship harder is to find posion. I have no realy no idea how probing works but that is my idea it may be worst idea you have heard but is a idea.
Muthsera S.A.S	Posted - 2007.02.15 08:56:00 - [60] Ok. I'm getting tired of this now. To the ppl who cry nerf here. Why should we nerf the cloak? What gives the cloak such a massive advantage over other uncloaked players? It lets you do one thing and one thing only. It gives you the possibility to be safe in space. It lets you sit at a safespot and look at market or sort out contracts without having to worry about this and that. It lets you do all those stuff passively and you don't have to log on an alt or what not. It limit logoffski greatly. And it let you pay attention to events around you without disclosing your position. That shouldn't be laughed at. It gives you the capability to gather info about your enemy without having to warp around and do this and that to avoid getting podded. I would think 90% of you who cry nerf in this matter isn't a pvper. And if you are, your in a large entity and your falling victim to an annoying problem as you see it. It shouldn't be a walk in a park just by adding numbers to your alliance. Thats is daft by all reasoning. Again you make it just that much harder to preform against large entities if you do. This is one of the few modules left that gives you the possibility to live in deep space without station access. That shouldn't be frown upon of be taken lightly. Any limitation to this module above what it already is limited to. Makes no sense at all. It makes no sense to make it probeable. If you do. The use of this module is close to none existent. You might as well take it out of the database entirely. I don't care if you think thats right or not. But I tell your right now, you might as well delete it. What is the use of this module if you have to constantly use the scanner to see if your being scanned? You'll not do that. you'll just log instead. Wait 20 min and then log. You might just as well make 3 safes and warp between them and then log. Why would you limit your scan res for that? There is so many tactics that is tied to this module. Especially if your plan to hit large fleets. That 90% of the ppl who cry nerf doesn't recognize that is slightly disturbing. And I cannot understand why this module needs a nerf. Nothing that have been stated so far tells me it should be nerfed. Nothing, nada, zip, zero, none. If you fall victim to a cloaker in space and stay docked because of it. I just feel sorry for you. I've personally npced in system where we are without any form of cloak at all. And 30 hostiles have chosen to stay dock instead of take me on. FFS if you cannot preform, if you always fall victim to scares and don't bother npc or mine or go to deep space in fear of getting podded or lose your ship. This module isn't at fault. It is you. It is you who cannot preform. It is you who cannot take the step up to take me and my kind on. It is not this modules fault. On the same reasoning I've heard now. You should also eradicate npc station. If you can't take that, and can't force ppl to undock in deep space, then that to in terms of that reasoning should be deleted from the database. No, this entire reasoning that the cloak should be probeable is flawed. And what it only does. Is let the strong and get stronger. It forces scouts to be active at all times, it forces ppl into large entities to get access to deep space, to literally force themselves a space of land trough numbers. And not trough wits or tactics or skill. It is simply another wrong step in an ever more unbalanced direction. I won't even bother to see this in the same light as the current nano issue that is going to be changed shortly anyway. It's two entirely different issues, it's two different capabilities, and shouldn't be seen in light of each other at all. The reason inertia is going to be limited is mostly because of the tracking system and pure combat system. Not the capability of it as such. But you can start with explain to me why it is so crucial to change this mod in the first place? Whats so wrong about it the capability? Rabble

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