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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:25:00 -
[151]
On topic: agreed, it's lame and CCP has to replace the ship because it was killed with an exploit.
You can spin the word exploit as much as you can, it is an exploit: use of game mechanics for unwanted purposes.
It's a shame that while EVE is about to fight the biggest war ever fought on any online game, the game becomes so tainted. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
NightmareX
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:27:00 -
[152]
Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 15:24:40
Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich He should not have flown that Titan, because he apparently did all the things he could to loose it, he didnt log of at a deepsafe, he logged in the proximity of others, and BoB took advantage, like any other smart EVE players would have done, it was not an exploit, it was legitimate.
Oh, so he did wrong by logging off when there was no hostile ships with the Titan before the titan pilot logged off without knowing that he had got a new agression timer from a cheap CHEAP ingame tactic?.
The titan pilot didn't do anything wrong, he logged off with no enemy agression. And was thinking he was safe because of NO agression timer. So yeah he didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
Your soooooo wrong there dude.
And cry more please BoC fanbois, i'm really starting to love you guys more and more for every OMG BoC is right, cuz BoC is hot ♥♥♥♥♥, and cuz they are really good pvpers while they clearly have showed that they can't really fight
He logged with agression, be it enemy or not.....and no I no BoB fanboi, never have been, you should know that. He trusted his alliance/corpmates, but one of them was a spy, its legitimate tactic. and i guess he will never do that again, knowing he could face the same scenario.
Yeah but you still don't get it to, agression timer is meant to avoid players to log off while you ARE in a fight, not just of a player in the same corp / alliance just pressed on the smartbomb button by mistake or something and did a little damage on your ship. You shuld still log off with NO agression timer
Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred |
xlop
omen. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:29:00 -
[153]
friendly fire activates agro timer? ...
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NightmareX
Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:31:00 -
[154]
Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 15:35:16
Originally by: xlop friendly fire activates agro timer? ...
Yes
It sounds to me that you can't have a safe 1 vs 1 with your corp mate in space without knowing that you can get killed by a stupid aggro timer
Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred |
pershphanie
The Ancient Race
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:32:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Sorja
You can spin the word exploit as much as you can, it is an exploit: use of game mechanics for unwanted purposes.
lol? That could be said about tanking in a mining barge against a vagabond. |
Lireil Crow
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:33:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Lireil Crow on 17/02/2007 15:30:49 I have yet to see any titan die in this game, I on the other hand seen 2 of them cheated to death by using exploits and bugs. But Has a titan been killed? no they died of cheating BOD.
I think a lot of people are missing something here. CCP helped bob gang info that wasn't going to be given out. Info on bugs, and exploits, and when people found out CCP did nothing. Are the bugs and exploits going to be fixed CCP? Were they bugs and exploits put in the game for BOD use? What are you going to do to BOD? Nothing Yes, And for all you people who says "can I have your stuff", well can I have yours?
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Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.02.17 15:44:00 -
[157]
The truth of the matter is the titan pilot should have been more circumspect about logging. Why announce you are doing so or where you are doing it? Unless this BoB spy was a really really good infiltrator and was the D2 fc or such then he didnt need to know. I dont think this is going to be a big issue as all titan pilots will now be more careful, its just unfortunate for D2 that bob used the tactic first (they would of done the same if they had thought of it and there would not be anything like the fuss there is about this). And all those people saying how titans should only be taken out in combat obviously dont understand how hard that is with them being able to use dd from pos and even if they are in the front line, the nodes cant handle the sort of forces that will be attacking/defending it(yes i spent 4 hrs on log in screens while supposedly defending lvs titan factory). I also think that titans using jump bridges (as this one supposedly did before logging) and even cyno ships should get an aggro timer tbh. Oh and why dont we have an aggro timer on our screens - at least then no-one could claim they didnt know they had aggro - seems a pretty obvious solution.
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HellSpeed
angels of darkness LTD Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:06:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Kmacross Hi,
iam still ****ed also after overslept a night. the thing what happened yesterday with the D2 titan is just one big setp into the wrong direction.As far as i understand a titan is not meant to kill before he fired his ultimate weapon (doomsday), than his cap will be down and he is free to kill for some time.
Now it comes to the point, what the hell are ppl doing ? Titan got aggroed by a spy, and his timer was running so bob was able to kill it !!!!
I tought u guys were they ultimate pvpers ;), fighting fair and NOT using this kinda lame and a unrespectful thing (it isnt a tactic). Losing a titan would be no problem if it had been in a proper way, but do u guys really think this was a good kill?
Just a shame that so many guys think it was. Personally i like to pvp in so many games like rocket arena, unreal tournament, battlefield, warhammer40k, and also in eve. But lately it is more essential to know the bugs,exploits and so on in eve to win without any heavy losses. If it goes further that way iam going to stop palying eve, cause iam not willing to pay for a game were honor and fairness got lost.Of course u will find everywhere cheaters, but hey they are only like 13 years old.
Dont tell me using a spy to do aggro on the titan isnt cheating, from my pov it is and u guys should get a propper punishment! Just waiting for all those forum warriors to respond on this post ....
And then this passive targeter thing (targeting enemies while they in pos), and also shooting in them was possible while they been in the pos (but only when pw from pos is not active) . If ppl using bugs, exploits they have to be banned for some time or whatever,but nothing happened.Still to remind, U and I paying for this nonsense.
Also i personally lost faith in ccp, just remember the t2 bpo thing spawing in bobs hangar. Also bob always knows the most useful bugs ingame and using them of course, just wondering from whom they got the information about it ;)
U need to know them also if u want to fight equally, but u dont
Well there was a time when i started playing this game and tought "What a wonderful game with all those features". Now it is more like "Should i stop playing eve and play something else ?"
Hey, how did Ragoons find out that a titan was being built in JV1V? [url=http://profile.xfire.com/blackboltx][/url] |
Fabienne Runestar
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:12:00 -
[159]
BoB... you want respect for your uber PVP skills at taking a titan... Next time try it without waiting for them to log off or be in the process of logging off.
I have to give props to MC for their STK Mothership kill, forsure. Helen was in it for the fight, and stuck around too long but still their kill was class. As aposed to the 2 titans your sorry butts have killed while they were logged off. No class at all.
BoB doesn't want respect, though they want to be feared and uber. So, go on being 'So awesome' Bob. Your griefing will end sooner rather than later. It was a nice run while it lasted. ---
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Troubadour
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:13:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Troubadour on 17/02/2007 16:10:51
Originally by: Kmacross Hi...
Now it comes to the point, what the hell are ppl doing ? Titan got aggroed by a spy, and his timer was running so bob was able to kill it !!!!
I tought u guys were they ultimate pvpers ;), fighting fair and NOT using this kinda lame and a unrespectful thing (it isnt a tactic). Losing a titan would be no problem if it had been in a proper way, but do u guys really think this was a good kill?
Just a shame that so many guys think it was. Personally i like to pvp in so many games like rocket arena, unreal tournament, battlefield, warhammer40k, and also in eve.
waaa waaa. This isn't any of those other games, this is eve. In eve, there is espionage. Deal with it. Simply put, if you can't handle it, go play WoW or EQ2 where everyone are friends and play nice together.
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Deva Blackfire
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:19:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Troubadour
waaa waaa. This isn't any of those other games, this is eve. In eve, there is espionage. Deal with it. Simply put, if you can't handle it, go play WoW or EQ2 where everyone are friends and play nice together.
Yes and is this espionage too? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/exploiters/cheater.avi
Sorry im fed up with BoC using everything they can to win. Too weak to take it fair and square? Or maybe they lose balls when they join bob?
My bet: noone will get banned for this. And now d2 can remember XZH when 2-3 dread pilots were banned when they were struck by game bug (getting hit from 30AU).
Yeh i love when depending which corp you join you are allowed to abuse some mechanics.
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pershphanie
The Ancient Race
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:22:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Lireil Crow Edited by: Lireil Crow on 17/02/2007 15:30:49 I have yet to see any titan die in this game, I on the other hand seen 2 of them cheated to death by using exploits and bugs. But Has a titan been killed? no they died of cheating BOD.
I really did try to root for the death to bob crowd in this war. but crap like this has changed my mind.
WTS - tinfoil hat. slightly used. |
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Eldo Davip
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:23:00 -
[163]
Thread cleaned. Please keep the flaming and trolling out of this thread. Thanks
___
EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER
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Why'dyou HitMe
Minmatar The Reckoning
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:25:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Troubadour
some crapola
Hey a pet of a pet, wow do you know any other tricks besides boot licking?
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Eamz
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:26:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 17/02/2007 14:35:51 The aggro timer was never meant as a means to keep people in game indefinatly, without them knowing.
BOD never set out to kill that titan in a fight, they set out to abuse an ingame mechanic in such a way that they KNEW the titan pilot wouldnt spot that he was aggroed.
This by definition is an exploit of ingame mechanics. Its no better than using NPC cans to keep aggro. Which i might add has been stated by Jeikon(dev) as an exploit.
Aggro timer was never intended as a means to catch people out. It was to stop people logging out in combat.
If anything it shows the need for a lowsec like timer.
exactly, it is clearly exploiting. Should be reimbursed and those involved warned not to do it again.
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MAD D0G
Caldari BURN EDEN GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:26:00 -
[166]
Edited by: MAD D0G on 17/02/2007 16:24:57
Originally by: Edde Bebbi
Originally by: Kmacross Hi,
iam still ****ed also after overslept a night. the thing what happened yesterday with the D2 titan is just one big setp into the wrong direction.As far as i understand a titan is not meant to kill before he fired his ultimate weapon (doomsday), than his cap will be down and he is free to kill for some time.
Now it comes to the point, what the hell are ppl doing ? Titan got aggroed by a spy, and his timer was running so bob was able to kill it !!!!
I tought u guys were they ultimate pvpers ;), fighting fair and NOT using this kinda lame and a unrespectful thing (it isnt a tactic). Losing a titan would be no problem if it had been in a proper way, but do u guys really think this was a good kill?
Just a shame that so many guys think it was. Personally i like to pvp in so many games like rocket arena, unreal tournament, battlefield, warhammer40k, and also in eve. But lately it is more essential to know the bugs,exploits and so on in eve to win without any heavy losses. If it goes further that way iam going to stop palying eve, cause iam not willing to pay for a game were honor and fairness got lost.Of course u will find everywhere cheaters, but hey they are only like 13 years old.
Dont tell me using a spy to do aggro on the titan isnt cheating, from my pov it is and u guys should get a propper punishment! Just waiting for all those forum warriors to respond on this post ....
And then this passive targeter thing (targeting enemies while they in pos), and also shooting in them was possible while they been in the pos (but only when pw from pos is not active) . If ppl using bugs, exploits they have to be banned for some time or whatever,but nothing happened.Still to remind, U and I paying for this nonsense.
Also i personally lost faith in ccp, just remember the t2 bpo thing spawing in bobs hangar. Also bob always knows the most useful bugs ingame and using them of course, just wondering from whom they got the information about it ;)
U need to know them also if u want to fight equally, but u dont
Well there was a time when i started playing this game and tought "What a wonderful game with all those features". Now it is more like "Should i stop playing eve and play something else ?"
Your allies exploited a node-crash bug to kill an LV titan. I dont see you making comments like this in those threads.
lol yee we put up 20 large bubbles and launched 400 drones to reduce lag honest
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Sargonius
Minmatar Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:26:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Troubadour
waaa waaa. This isn't any of those other games, this is eve. In eve, there is espionage. Deal with it. Simply put, if you can't handle it, go play WoW or EQ2 where everyone are friends and play nice together.
Yes and is this espionage too? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/exploiters/cheater.avi
Sorry im fed up with BoC using everything they can to win. Too weak to take it fair and square? Or maybe they lose balls when they join bob?
My bet: noone will get banned for this. And now d2 can remember XZH when 2-3 dread pilots were banned when they were struck by game bug (getting hit from 30AU).
Yeh i love when depending which corp you join you are allowed to abuse some mechanics.
Sorry i like that video , so i thought a linky would be better
*snip* Please don't troll in your signature -Eldo ([email protected]) No troll , i show the true until somethin is done :htt |
thoradh
AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 16:58:00 -
[168]
None of this is any surprise, and expect much more before the crusade has completed its work. These incidents are merely steps along the way, and there will be more incidents that illustrate to us exactly why the cleansing must continue until the task has been completed. Win at all costs means exactly that, even if it threathens the very existence of EVE itself. Take heart comrades, the job is progressing very nicely, it is only a metter of time.
Oh nearly forgot...tick tock, tick tock.
> > Noli illegitimi carborundum! > |
Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Momentum. Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:01:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Fabienne Runestar BoB doesn't want respect, though they want to be feared and uber. So, go on being 'So awesome' Bob. Your griefing will end sooner rather than later. It was a nice run while it lasted.
Yeah BOB want to be feared, but all you have to do is stay logged in and they wont attack you
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searchi
tiberian suns
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:02:00 -
[170]
ccp please check in your logs, who was responsible for cyvoc logging off with an aggro timer.
if it was he himself or a hostile then fine but if it was a friendly, then something smells funny.
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Edde Bebbi
Amarr The Griffin
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:03:00 -
[171]
At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move"
Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on.
Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs?
Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics?
Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers?
I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame.
Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
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Sargonius
Minmatar Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:15:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Edde Bebbi At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move"
Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on.
Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs?
Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics?
Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers?
I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame.
Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477804
Post 25
copie paste euh?
Exploits s bad but true |
Edde Bebbi
Amarr The Griffin
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:16:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Sargonius
Originally by: Edde Bebbi At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move"
Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on.
Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs?
Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics?
Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers?
I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame.
Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477804
Post 25
copie paste euh?
4 Threads on the same thing, what do you expect. Still seem to have no answer to it though?
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Sargonius
Minmatar Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:17:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Edde Bebbi
Originally by: Sargonius
Originally by: Edde Bebbi At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move"
Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on.
Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs?
Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics?
Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers?
I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame.
Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477804
Post 25
copie paste euh?
4 Threads on the same thing, what do you expect. Still seem to have no answer to it though?
yes i got the anser just for you
clic the link under my sig
Exploits s bad but true |
Eamz
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:18:00 -
[175]
they are all lame, and so too are bob. happy?
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Powdder
CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:20:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Kmacross Hi,
iam still ****ed also after overslept a night. the thing what happened yesterday with the D2 titan is just one big setp into the wrong direction.As far as i understand a titan is not meant to kill before he fired his ultimate weapon (doomsday), than his cap will be down and he is free to kill for some time.
Now it comes to the point, what the hell are ppl doing ? Titan got aggroed by a spy, and his timer was running so bob was able to kill it !!!!
I tought u guys were they ultimate pvpers ;), fighting fair and NOT using this kinda lame and a unrespectful thing (it isnt a tactic). Losing a titan would be no problem if it had been in a proper way, but do u guys really think this was a good kill?
Just a shame that so many guys think it was. Personally i like to pvp in so many games like rocket arena, unreal tournament, battlefield, warhammer40k, and also in eve. But lately it is more essential to know the bugs,exploits and so on in eve to win without any heavy losses. If it goes further that way iam going to stop palying eve, cause iam not willing to pay for a game were honor and fairness got lost.Of course u will find everywhere cheaters, but hey they are only like 13 years old.
Dont tell me using a spy to do aggro on the titan isnt cheating, from my pov it is and u guys should get a propper punishment! Just waiting for all those forum warriors to respond on this post ....
And then this passive targeter thing (targeting enemies while they in pos), and also shooting in them was possible while they been in the pos (but only when pw from pos is not active) . If ppl using bugs, exploits they have to be banned for some time or whatever,but nothing happened.Still to remind, U and I paying for this nonsense.
Also i personally lost faith in ccp, just remember the t2 bpo thing spawing in bobs hangar. Also bob always knows the most useful bugs ingame and using them of course, just wondering from whom they got the information about it ;)
U need to know them also if u want to fight equally, but u dont
Well there was a time when i started playing this game and tought "What a wonderful game with all those features". Now it is more like "Should i stop playing eve and play something else ?"
most of the eve community DOSN"T condone this kind of thing. Example, most of the community is standing against the that kind of game play. the line has been drawn, and most are standing up to pitch these scumbags out of 0.0. when that happens it will be a true testament to the population of EVE. Pow
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Edde Bebbi
Amarr The Griffin
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:21:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Sargonius
Originally by: Edde Bebbi
Originally by: Sargonius
Originally by: Edde Bebbi At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move"
Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on.
Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs?
Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics?
Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers?
I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame.
Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477804
Post 25
copie paste euh?
4 Threads on the same thing, what do you expect. Still seem to have no answer to it though?
yes i got the anser just for you
clic the link under my sig
If exploits are bad why do you ally with exploiters?
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Sargonius
Minmatar Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:23:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Edde Bebbi
Originally by: Sargonius
Originally by: Edde Bebbi
Originally by: Sargonius
Originally by: Edde Bebbi At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move"
Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on.
Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs?
Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics?
Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers?
I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame.
Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477804
Post 25
copie paste euh?
4 Threads on the same thing, what do you expect. Still seem to have no answer to it though?
yes i got the anser just for you
clic the link under my sig
If exploits are bad why do you ally with exploiters?
?? what exploit? show me? i did show you the proof , wheres yours? what exploit?
Exploits s bad but true |
Edde Bebbi
Amarr The Griffin
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:25:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Sargonius
?? what exploit? show me? i did show you the proof , wheres yours? what exploit?
AAA and RA have had more than 30 accounts banned for use of a complex exploit last year. RA have had 3 carrier pilots banned for use of carrier overloading exploits. All of this is very well documented (far better than what you claim is an 'exploit' but is probably just a bug.
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darth solo
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.17 17:25:00 -
[180]
One of the main reasons we are away from all that crap is because it really did seem to be "win at all costs".. it was a rubbish way to play eve and i apologise to my corp mates for putting them thru it. lesson learned.
it wasnt for fun, it was all about winning, thats REALLY sad..
the large alliances do not care if they destroy this game, they are just out for themselves, i hope they all burn. BOB hopefully faster than others, because regardless of what others may think imo they are FULL of cheats that are bad for this great game.
d solo.
celes apoc new kilboard |
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