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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.20 09:15:00 - [31] Originally by: SencneS Small point here... How are you going to get the Dread into said High Sec space to take down the POS in a timely fashion? or are you just planning to keep tossing Battleships at it? It's glaringly obvious that you haven't looked at the poor defensive condition of most of the pos's in high sec. You don't need a dread to do the job. In relation to dread in high sec. Yes they are there but it's unlikely that some of the small research corps have this equipment at their disposal. Cool an orange sig
Domalais Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.20 11:04:00 - [32] Originally by: Shameless Avenger But why would anybody bother to set up a research POS in high sec empire that cost close to 1b is it can be taken down by a few griefers with a cheap war-dec? Oh noes, you might have to put some guns on your POS! What a shame!
insulubria	Posted - 2007.02.20 11:26:00 - [33] What used to happen is, you could kill anyones hi-sec pos and concord just sat around useless as **** on a nun. Then GM's would go around filling shields on the pos's that got attacked without a War Dec. Now the POS's will trigger concord wardec or no wardec. I Wish I could bait some morons into wardecing my hi sec pos, its got lots of pretty guns.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.20 13:57:00 - [34] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 20/02/2007 13:55:42 Originally by: Domalais Originally by: Shameless Avenger But why would anybody bother to set up a research POS in high sec empire that cost close to 1b is it can be taken down by a few griefers with a cheap war-dec? Oh noes, you might have to put some guns on your POS! What a shame! Oh, I do have some guns, believe me. But that's not the point. Not even a 100 batteries could stop a dedicater scammer/griefer (reffer to the thread that spawned this one) from rallying trops in every channel/forum and making a super duper fleet to take down POSes in high sec. Is just grief at it's finest. Plus, even with a 100 guns, it's a high sec POS. It can't be set to shoot anyone. Meaning, that they could scout for defenses without risk. Oh, and his fight was not with me. I just step in due to the discussion of concord protection.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.20 14:09:00 - [35] Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: SencneS Small point here... How are you going to get the Dread into said High Sec space to take down the POS in a timely fashion? or are you just planning to keep tossing Battleships at it? It's glaringly obvious that you haven't looked at the poor defensive condition of most of the pos's in high sec. You don't need a dread to do the job. In relation to dread in high sec. Yes they are there but it's unlikely that some of the small research corps have this equipment at their disposal. So your goal in eve is to wipe out small research corps? Got grief? About the dreads in high sec (besides the 2 well known) prove it. Looks more of an intimidating propaganda than a fact.
Caius Sivaris Minmatar Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2007.02.20 14:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Plus, even with a 100 guns, it's a high sec POS. It can't be set to shoot anyone. Meaning, that they could scout for defenses without risk. You can scout any POS anywhere without risk either in a pod or a covert ops...
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.20 14:26:00 - [37] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 20/02/2007 14:23:30 Originally by: Caius Sivaris Originally by: Shameless Avenger Plus, even with a 100 guns, it's a high sec POS. It can't be set to shoot anyone. Meaning, that they could scout for defenses without risk. You can scout any POS anywhere without risk either in a pod or a covert ops... true
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.20 23:35:00 - [38] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: SencneS Small point here... How are you going to get the Dread into said High Sec space to take down the POS in a timely fashion? or are you just planning to keep tossing Battleships at it? It's glaringly obvious that you haven't looked at the poor defensive condition of most of the pos's in high sec. You don't need a dread to do the job. In relation to dread in high sec. Yes they are there but it's unlikely that some of the small research corps have this equipment at their disposal. So your goal in eve is to wipe out small research corps? Got grief? About the dreads in high sec (besides the 2 well known) prove it. Looks more of an intimidating propaganda than a fact. I find all this talk about grief tiresome. Get off the whining carebear bandwagon. Eve is a pvp game, thus you are allowed to shoot at other players and their assets. Destroying a ship, pos or whatever isn't grief it's an act of revenge, to respond to idiotic smacktalk or just for sport. Grief is repeatedly popping noob ships in 1.0 when they haven't even gotten to grips with the game or how to deal with the situation presented to them. Grief is war decing a corp of 2 week players, except where they've been endlessly smacktalking in local and harrassing other players. I regard the current immunity provided to high sec pos's via concorde to be griefing your enemies (potential or actual). It's an abuse of a game mechanic so from my perspective it's bordering on being an exploit. Cool an orange sig
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.21 00:38:00 - [39] A comment on this. First, I have taken part in the destruction of two POS belonging to CONCORD war targets in low-sec since this bug entered the game. No CONCORD, naturally, but sec-status losses were incurred. My petitions for those sec-status losses were answered favourably. It's the same issue. It's also likely the same issue as being CONCORDOKKENED if you attack an anchored can belonging to a war target. People who have had that issue have been re-imbursed. I suspect someone who attacked a war target POS in high-sec would have a favourable reimbursement petition following the CONCORDOKKEN that would follow. It appears to be the case that aggression against an anchored object belonging to a war target in empire space will incur sec-status loss (in low and high sec) and CONCORD action (in high sec). This should not happen. You can debate the rights and wrongs of waging war against POS-owners but this is straightforwardly a bug. In empire wars all the assets of the enemy are fair game and this nonsense started with the Kali patch and should be fixed. Cosmo The Star Fraction Recruitment
Domalais Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.21 01:51:00 - [40] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Oh, I do have some guns, believe me. But that's not the point. Not even a 100 batteries could stop a dedicater scammer/griefer (reffer to the thread that spawned this one) from rallying trops in every channel/forum and making a super duper fleet to take down POSes in high sec. Is just grief at it's finest. Plus, even with a 100 guns, it's a high sec POS. It can't be set to shoot anyone. Meaning, that they could scout for defenses without risk. 1. The super duper fleet would all have to wardec you, else CONCORDOKKEN. 2. Given a total inability to use dreads, any super duper fleet would take massive losses in a POS assault. 3. A battleship fleet will take eternity to down a properly set up POS. 4. Proper use of strontium in your POSes (I bet most highsec POSes have 0 stront) will eliminate the risk of disorganized randoms, as they are highly unlikely to have the patience and organization to show up when your tower exits reinforced. Therefore, you can't expect someone to rally a bunch of random people together to attack you, because the random people would not have any monetary interest in the attack and are likely to lose significant amounts of their isk and waste significant amounts of their time.

Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.21 02:15:00 - [41] Originally by: The Cosmopolite A comment on this. First, I have taken part in the destruction of two POS belonging to CONCORD war targets in low-sec since this bug entered the game. No CONCORD, naturally, but sec-status losses were incurred. My petitions for those sec-status losses were answered favourably. It's the same issue. It's also likely the same issue as being CONCORDOKKENED if you attack an anchored can belonging to a war target. People who have had that issue have been re-imbursed. I suspect someone who attacked a war target POS in high-sec would have a favourable reimbursement petition following the CONCORDOKKEN that would follow. It appears to be the case that aggression against an anchored object belonging to a war target in empire space will incur sec-status loss (in low and high sec) and CONCORD action (in high sec). This should not happen. You can debate the rights and wrongs of waging war against POS-owners but this is straightforwardly a bug. In empire wars all the assets of the enemy are fair game and this nonsense started with the Kali patch and should be fixed. Cosmo Yeah it does sound like the bugs are linked. I used to have all sort of fun popping marketing cans in high sec. You have to note that a lot of people think they have a right to have their pos protected by Concorde while a war dec is active. If a war dec doesn't remove Concorde protection then what are you paying for? I have no issue with Concorde protecting a pos without a war dec as this did need to be fixed. Cool an orange sig
Sakura Yoshimitsu	Posted - 2007.02.21 10:12:00 - [42] If all assets were meant to be able to become targets of war BPO's etc in other stations should be able to be destroyed. POS's currently enjoy the same protection basically as an NPC station. I see no problem in this current situation.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.22 10:47:00 - [43] The notion that any assets in space (in this case, high-sec space) should be safe from a CONCORD-Sanctioned War Declaration is absurd. It runs entirely against the core philosophy of Eve Online, where it has been a foundational principle that even in high-sec space, you and your assets are not 100% safe. This is still a PvP game, right? The notion of invulnerable high-sec POS is deeply flawed and I strongly suspect that CCP will recognise this and act accordingly, in full recognition of the necessary options available to individuals and corporation that have desired war against another group of people otherwise unattackable in high-sec space. This is frankly, a troubling nerf on Empire War and cheapens the notion of two entities going all out on eachother after declaring CONCORD-Sanctioned hostilities. I really hope it is changed, and soon (forget the Ö).
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.22 14:02:00 - [44] OMG, PvPiers can also whine like crying babies Griefing is bad m'kay.
Fitz VonHeise United Connection's	Posted - 2007.02.22 14:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Devian 666 Sorry about that Fitz I'm remember reading about that. Not a problem... And I guess we both have vested interets (in opposite directions) on this one. Well just have to let CCP work this one out.
Shandling Minmatar Cotton Buds FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.22 16:08:00 - [46] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Griefing is bad m'kay. EVE is built around competition (read: griefing), free market (read: griefing), open universe (read: griefing), and PvP (read: griefing). If you like everything to be safe and easy... well... then this probably isn't the game for you. (Unless you want to stay in an NPC corp and docked 23/7 in Jita) Honestly, I don't care about hi-sec POS's since I don't really leave 0.0 often, but it does seem kind of silly to be able to put up a POS without any risk whatsoever. It shouldn't be invulnerable imo. That goes against everything EVE Online is.
Dravin Dread	Posted - 2007.02.22 16:55:00 - [47] Originally by: Nooey It runs entirely against the core philosophy of Eve Online, where it has been a foundational principle that even in high-sec space, you and your assets are not 100% safe. This is still a PvP game, right? "It's important to understand that EVE is a "PvP" focused game, but in a broader sense of the word. This is also why both terms are in quotes. Imagine me with a beer making 'air quotes' (think Doctor Evil but without the attitude) when I say PvP and PvE. We consider almost every activity in EVE to be "PvP". We've touched on this before, the basic example always used is that, you as a pilot doing a mission for an agent ties into a lot of elements where you are competing with other players. "PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale. You're competing in price and supply." Oveur, 21 Feb 2007 Refrence
Josh Causto Gallente Fatalix Inc. Schism.	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:02:00 - [48] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Come on! You only want high sec POSes to be wardekkeable because most have no guns and you like to shoot at stuff with no guns... -----sig starts here---- Some griefers are articulate and polite, but they are still griefers. Hi! Just because you don't put guns on your pos, doesn't mean you can't. Lets say you get war decked. You have 24 hours to turn your high sec pos into a deathstar. If setup properly, a BS fleet will have a HELL of a time trying to bring that pos to its knees. POS's should have the ability to be attacked because you have the ability to put defensive mods on them. Simple as that.
Zylis Stormhand Gallente Paranoid Miners	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:35:00 - [49] Ive read alot of this thread and wanted to weigh in my thoughts on it. Im a noob so we'll get that out of the way..... Pos safe in high sec space...so what. How will that effect the game in the long run? Well more people will have access to research slots to research there BPO's. Well researched BPO's reduce the production costs of goods. Cheaper goods mean cheper items on the market. Cheper items on market mean that more people will be able and willing to join in PVP play. I fail to see how Research POS's pose a threat to game stability. I can only see how it would benefit the game. The way the games seems to me (being a 6month old charecter) is that its an elitist game. 1. The game is very intimidating when you start. 2. When you finally get done with the tutorial and are still in the process of wrapping your head around the game. The first person you meet will be the guy helping himself/herself to your ore. 3. Everyone is a pirate......well maybe not now but thats what they aspire too as soon as they can get the skills they want. 4. EVERYONE CAMPS. Whether your the noobie miner, indy corp like myself or the guys waiting on the otherside of the gate to pop your indy as you come through. So the way I see it is.... Safe POS's ensure reasearch can get done on a wider scale. More research = cheaper prices. Cheaper prices = more people willing to lose stuff in fights. So for all you haters out there that want more and easier targets. We're on our way out to 0.0 just let us get enough going so that when we lose our 60-170million dollar battleship it wont be a 4 month set back. Thanks. On the behalf of noobies everywhere....
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:10:00 - [50] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Devian 666 I disagree a low sec or 0.0 pos is much harder to erect and maintain that in high sec.... Are you aware of fuel bonuses for sovereignty? Are you aware of the incredible incomes that could come from moon mining? Are you aware you don't need to wory about your standings to erect low-sec / 0.0 POS? Come on! You only want high sec POSes to be wardekkeable because most have no guns and you like to shoot at stuff with no guns... -----sig starts here---- Some griefers are articulate and polite, but they are still griefers. This is a thread about a serious bug in game mechanics. Save your smacktalk for the crime and punishment forum. Make points instead of making veiled insults. Given all the benefits that you suggest in low sec/0.0 you neglect to consider the control required over low sec/0.0 and that weapons and defenses consume fuel. Keeping a military force operating to exert control over a region or local area is considerable. Moon mining isn't that profitable unless you have really good moons, like in BoB space, and you actually need to be doing complex reactions to get real money. There are significant logistics in running enough pos's to create complex reaction products. Also you do need standings and permission to set up a pos in alliance space in 0.0. Perhaps you should step away from making personal attacks on people are participating in the discussion in a more serious manner. Cool an orange sig

Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:15:00 - [51] Originally by: Shameless Avenger OMG, PvPiers can also whine like crying babies Griefing is bad m'kay. I wouldn't advise calling Exuro Mortis whining crying babies. Cool an orange sig
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:28:00 - [52] Originally by: Zylis Stormhand So for all you haters out there that want more and easier targets. We're on our way out to 0.0 just let us get enough going so that when we lose our 60-170million dollar battleship it wont be a 4 month set back. Thanks. On the behalf of noobies everywhere.... I think it is noticeable that by and large all the insults are coming from people who want this bug to remain in place. I'm not a 'griefer' and I'm not a 'hater'. I care about this game and I believe that a player-owned asset in space that is totally invulnerable to miltary action even though its owners are in a CONCORD war is a bad thing. The dimension that has been totally missed here is that it means it is far less risky for people with POSes in high sec to declare war themselves. They don't need to weigh the risks to their infrastructure when declaring war on someone who happens not to have any. I think that is wrong. EVE is a game of consequences. The consequence of choosing to put up a totally unarmed and unhardened POS in high sec should be that there is some risk of it being destroyed in a CONCORD war. The consequence of declaring war while owning POSes in high sec should be that they are vulnerable to counter-attack by the entity that has been declared against. I did, actually, take note of Oveur's slightly worrying remarks. I am hoping it is not some bizarre Humpty-Dumpty attempt to redefine PvP such that it's just meaningless so that CCP can make the game progressively consequence-free and just like any other instanced and 100% safe zone MMOG out there. I really am. What I hope is that it is simply an expression of a view I would share: that many things can be PvP beyond just shooting at people, whether it be competing for resources, market war, researching, competitive PvE or whatever. That I have no problem with and welcome. What I don't welcome is the notion that people should be able to do something as significant as put up a POS with absolutely zero risk. Cosmo The Star Fraction Recruitment
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:39:00 - [53] I agree with the above comments but would like to go a step further. My underlying concern is that if "features" like this start creeping in one by one soon Eve will change into something else. Eve currently has: Scope to be creative with ship configurations through use of modules. This surprised me when I was first shot down by a sniper. It was a creative method of dealing with the game mechanics in low sec. Now the wcs nerf has made it a very dangerous profession. So be it. Eve has an actual economy with some "hidden" market controls. The ability to pvp throughout the game but with significant protection for players, except where at war, in high sec. This is very valuable as it regulates the market by acting as a sink for products maintaining demand. Loss of any of the above would ruin Eve significantly. Basically the current pos-concorde bug makes researchers/industrials too powerful and unbalanced. You can put up an unarmed and undefended research pos with no fear of losing it or it's components. You can then use the isk from bpcs to wage war on other corps without fear of loss of earnings. Basically this will be the ultimate pirate corp funding system. From the isk made from bpcs pirates will be able to fund a sea of t2 ships and fittings to stomp every small and medium sized corp out of existence. Given that most players are now hiding in high sec this is what CCP are currently encouraging by allowing this bug to stay in place. If that's what they want then I'll help to deliver it. Cool an orange sig
Slash Harnet Minmatar Industrial Services INC	Posted - 2007.02.23 00:57:00 - [54] This is a bug, it's just that simple. It isn't really a big deal anyway. You just keep one or two labs doing short jobs and then if you do get war dec you unanchor them and go into death star mode before hostilities start. Without dreads able to attack a smart corp can defend an high sec. POS without any problems at all. signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior!
Kaaii Caldari Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.23 01:02:00 - [55] Edited by: Kaaii on 23/02/2007 01:04:38 What has escaped most of you, is this "option" is available to each and everyone of you. Claiming its unfair, industrially invulnerable while flitting around in your nano-squids, blobs and your sniper set alpha strikers, smacks of such irony I hardly know where to begin. Industrials, have always been the true power in any war, any peace, anywhere. History reveals it time and time again, should you not learn from history, you are doomed to fall to it... You can't have your cake and not be eaten too... /edit Short version, for the economically impaired the "wallet is greater than the bullet" Trading 101
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.23 01:15:00 - [56] Originally by: Devian 666 This is a thread about a serious bug in game mechanics. Save your smacktalk for the crime and punishment forum. Make points instead of making veiled insults. Ok, you have issues AND a very sensitive ego. Before crying "don't insult me" please notice that you are the one indirectly shouting left and right that High Sec POS owners in favor of concord protection are ridiculous and stupid. Good points have already been made by various people. They have been ignored by PVP fanatism, and they will continue to be ignored. There is no point in trying to have a 'discussion' of any kind. So far, the only point in your favor is that "EVE is a 'primarly' a pvp game", like Oveur said. Many will try to compare the Hi-Sec Towers with their low-sec and 0.0 counterparts. They seem to forget that most people in this forum (myself included) already had erected and mantained low-sec and 0.0 POS operations. We have already been in a few alliances and we know how it is and how they operate. We just refuse to fight and die just to make a few selected alliance CEO's rich and powerfull. The fact that we are now in hi-sec empire doesn't mean we are impress or intimidated by low-sec and 0.0 POS warfare stories. Been there, done that. Finaly, I was sorprised that many of my forum peers have not voice their opinions about this. But now I know why: it's pointless. It's not a bug until CCP says so. Until then, we will continue our thing. If the rules change, we will adapt.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.23 01:29:00 - [57] Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Shameless Avenger OMG, PvPiers can also whine like crying babies Griefing is bad m'kay. I wouldn't advise calling Exuro Mortis whining crying babies. Don't know who the guy is, and frankly, don't care. I don't take advice from a confesed ORE thief. And I really don't know how mentioning the guy helps to prove your opinion about the High Sec POS concord protection issue.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.23 02:19:00 - [58] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Devian 666 This is a thread about a serious bug in game mechanics. Save your smacktalk for the crime and punishment forum. Make points instead of making veiled insults. Ok, you have issues AND a very sensitive ego. Before crying "don't insult me" please notice that you are the one indirectly shouting left and right that High Sec POS owners in favor of concord protection are ridiculous and stupid. Good points have already been made by various people. They have been ignored by PVP fanatism, and they will continue to be ignored. There is no point in trying to have a 'discussion' of any kind. So far, the only point in your favor is that "EVE is a 'primarly' a pvp game", like Oveur said. Many will try to compare the Hi-Sec Towers with their low-sec and 0.0 counterparts. They seem to forget that most people in this forum (myself included) already had erected and mantained low-sec and 0.0 POS operations. We have already been in a few alliances and we know how it is and how they operate. We just refuse to fight and die just to make a few selected alliance CEO's rich and powerfull. The fact that we are now in hi-sec empire doesn't mean we are impress or intimidated by low-sec and 0.0 POS warfare stories. Been there, done that. Finaly, I was sorprised that many of my forum peers have not voice their opinions about this. But now I know why: it's pointless. It's not a bug until CCP says so. Until then, we will continue our thing. If the rules change, we will adapt. Again I'll request that you stop with the personal attacks as it's seems the only thing you have an interest in doing. Just because I have a different opinion doesn't give you the right to sit on an ivory tower and smacktalk. If you want to claim that my arguements are stupid you should provide a valid arguement as to why. I have not seen anything that would convince me. You can continue with your insults but I will not stoop to your level. Talking about what you have done in relation to pos's does not impress me. Stop trying to inflate your ego. You will find most if not all who are posting to this thread have done what you have claim to have done. Your forum peers are not supporting you because the game mechanic is broken and anyone too lazy to defend a pos with 24 hours notice deserves to have it shot down. Basically you have not made any valid points in your post and are not contributing constructively. You think insulting people is constructive but I regard it as childish. You go on about me stealing ore and what exactly is your point in relation to one of my styles of playing eve. I'm not hassling your style of play. You suggest that I have issues and a very sensitive ego. I find your personal attacks to be offensive. I suggest you don't post to this thread until you are able to behave yourself. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.23 03:00:00 - [59] Well, it is YOUR thread. Fine with me, I'm gone.
insulubria	Posted - 2007.02.23 03:42:00 - [60] The little kids here that want the I WIN button are the ones that lie to themselves when they say invulnerable pos's are normal. Sorry your facts are wrong. It was a Bug concord would not a protect pos's with no one at war with them, they tried to fix the bug and it brought another bug. People would be reimbursed when they lost a pos to people who didnt war dec them, but they were NOT reimbursed when the attackers actually had a war dec. Seeing as now they ALWAYS defend and before the NEVER defended looks to me they havent coded concords ablity to differentiate between corps that were dec'ed or not. So Obviously the intention is there, backed by logical game play mechanics. I beg the day i can get war deced and dock my ship behind 50million HP of hardened shields, and laugh. Hopefully this huge bug will be fixed in the future, and yes, I do have battleship bpos in hi-sec INSIDE the pos's and no I dont use scientific networking. I happen to have rings of anti projectile/laser turrets and EW batteries along multiple long-latitude lines of the large pos's. When it gets decked, most of the labs go off and the guns come on. I even have more anti capital guns then I can actually fit with the pos's powergrid. Its like a decorated globe of death, well I guess thats why they call it a deathstar. Anyhow. I really hope this bug gets fixed some time so my defencive hardware can be something more then paperweights.



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