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Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.18 21:26:00 - [1] I've heard a rumour that if there is a war dec on a corp with a high sec pos that concorde still protect the pos. Is this true or myth? Given that concorde shouldn't do anything to protect the pos with a current war dec. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:31:00 - [2] Why it shouldn't be protected? It pays charters.
Tunajuice Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:52:00 - [3] It never used to be, if it is now, its a bug that needs fixed. POS's aren't meant to be unattackable.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 01:12:00 - [4] 1st, No one can say it is or it's not a bug unless ccp says so. 2nd, It's been like that for months. Watch the forums more often. And now, think about dudes. A high sec POS can't do a lot of stuff. It's only (IMHO) good for research. Good, it solves the research slots problem in empire. But why would anybody bother to set up a research POS in high sec empire that cost close to 1b is it can be taken down by a few griefers with a cheap war-dec? No body will anchor them then. Research slots would be even more tied up and the industrialist profession would be indirectly nerfed.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.19 01:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Shameless Avenger But why would anybody bother to set up a research POS in high sec empire that cost close to 1b is it can be taken down by a few griefers with a cheap war-dec? No body will anchor them then. Research slots would be even more tied up and the industrialist profession would be indirectly nerfed. Excellent point -AS
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 02:19:00 - [6] Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/02/2007 02:15:17 Originally by: Shameless Avenger 1st, No one can say it is or it's not a bug unless ccp says so. 2nd, It's been like that for months. Watch the forums more often. And now, think about dudes. A high sec POS can't do a lot of stuff. It's only (IMHO) good for research. Good, it solves the research slots problem in empire. But why would anybody bother to set up a research POS in high sec empire that cost close to 1b is it can be taken down by a few griefers with a cheap war-dec? No body will anchor them then. Research slots would be even more tied up and the industrialist profession would be indirectly nerfed. In the mechanics prior to the concorde patching the GMs allowed people to attack so long as they had an active war dec. In my opinion this is a serious bug as it makes an empire pos invulnerable which is inappropriate. In response to your second point my life doesn't revolve around the eve forums. I asked a question and you bag me for it. Be more polite in the future. In response to your third point why should any player created structure be invulnerable. If you set up a pos with no defenses and it gets shot down it's your fault. They not griefers they're assisting player evolution by natural selection. People will still anchor research pos's but they'll add defense. By being able to fill up a research pos with ONLY research labs is providing too many high sec research slots without taking any risk. This doesn't need a nerf it needs a mega nerf. You have your opinions but I think that they are highly unbalanced. Why should smacktalking noobs with a research pos escape the wrath of a war dec and destruction of a defenseless pos? Also, this makes industrial/research professions unbalanced as there is no risk at all. It's not like it's hard to put up pos defenses with a 24 hour warning of a war dec. Cool an orange sig
mechtech	Posted - 2007.02.19 03:03:00 - [7] Sure, taking away concord protection might let a few smack talking noobs get what they deserve, but it would destroy everything else high sec POSs are for, namely: 1) Rented out research POSs. Who would pay to put a BPO in a POS that might get blown up randomly from a cheap war dec? 2) Building T2 items faster with rapid assembly labs. With the risk of the whole operation coming to a halt for up to a week, as well as the cost of a new POS, no industrialist will ever bring the Tech 2 BPOs out of NPC stations. Now, you are entitled to your opinion, but the majority's opinion is that making them war targets takes much more away from the game than it adds. There is enough stuff to shoot already, TBH.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:04:00 - [8] Originally by: Devian 666 ... I didn't 'bag' you for asking a question. You are not seeing the whole picture here. High sec POS are already nerfed beyond belief. About the so called 'noobs'. This is something that I didn't like. You see, it takes a lot of work to get standings to anchor a POS. And it takes even more work to keep it running. I highly doubt that a POS owner could be called 'noob'. You want to war-dec the 'noobs'? Fine. You can still do that. In fact, why don't you do that?
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:11:00 - [9] Originally by: mechtech Sure, taking away concord protection might let a few smack talking noobs get what they deserve, but it would destroy everything else high sec POSs are for, namely: 1) Rented out research POSs. Who would pay to put a BPO in a POS that might get blown up randomly from a cheap war dec? 2) Building T2 items faster with rapid assembly labs. With the risk of the whole operation coming to a halt for up to a week, as well as the cost of a new POS, no industrialist will ever bring the Tech 2 BPOs out of NPC stations. Now, you are entitled to your opinion, but the majority's opinion is that making them war targets takes much more away from the game than it adds. There is enough stuff to shoot already, TBH. I've had a think about this as you have raised some interesting points. However, let me clarify though if a war dec would enable a pos to be attacked. 1) Rented out research slots: Who would pay for research on a bpo when a cheap war dec would take out an undefended pos. However, if the pos is well defended then it might be worth more. Also, note that the bpo would never be lost if the pos is attacked and labs destroyed if the pos manager knows what he's doing. 2) Oh noooos no one would ever bring out a t2 bpo for production. Gasp. Oh nooos they've never heard of making BPCs. Oh nooos a delay of a week of making inordinant profits off of t2 bpos. Note that a weeks delay on research would be unacceptable, ummm, if it weren't for those month long ME research queues in empire. You talk about the majority opinion but I don't recall you being appointed president of all Eve players. Here is my short summary of this thread. - The current bug makes any high sec pos invulnerable. - The current abuse of this bug by not putting any defenses on a pos loaded with labs is unbalancing. - People talk about needing charters and how that should provide them with protection. However, given that any mission runner who gets their faction standing above 5.0 probably has a two year supply of charters from their agent paid for by lp. We're not exactly talking a crippling expense here. - High sec research pos's are a source of isk without any risk if the corp is configured correctly. This is why I consider this an imbalance. - All the tools to protect a pos during a war are available. Guns (big ones that chew up battleships), missle batteries, shield hardeners, ewar systems. Note that in high sec it's a lot harder to knock over a pos due to no capital ships being allowed in. Given the huge profits in high sec with a research pos and t2 production then these pos managers should be easily be able to afford mercenaries to provide pos defense. - This excessive protection of high sec pos's is a nerf on low sec and 0.0 pos's. There is more risk and sometimes more reward in low sec and 0.0 and people accept the risks. - Also don't whine at me about how much it costs to setup a research pos as some people have far more expensive gear in pos's in low sec and 0.0 Why should greedy research and industrial carebears have no risk, all profit and easy access to fuel. That and research profits are very high. I would be more likely to accept the current mechanic if high sec pos's cost more to run. If greedy carebears want their invulnerable pos's then all ice should be removed from high sec. You can't have you cake and eat it too. Given that all the tools to defend a pos are there including EXISTING pos equipment and the ability to hire mercenaries I think this is a serious bug. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:17:00 - [10] 1st, like many of your kind have said many times on carebear threads: If you don't like it, don't play! (I always wanted to say that). Originally by: Devian 666 High sec research pos's are a source of isk without any risk if the corp is configured correctly Please explain how the $@#$#& a High-POS is a source of ISK. Is it more of an ISK sink that anything else. Oh, and a recruitment tool maybe. The only difference between doing research in POS Vs NPC stations is time. Instead of waiting a frigging year for that BS BPO to be decently researched, you will wait a few months. That's all. Everything else regarding a POS is an expense. NOT a profit.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Devian 666 ... I didn't 'bag' you for asking a question. You are not seeing the whole picture here. High sec POS are already nerfed beyond belief. About the so called 'noobs'. This is something that I didn't like. You see, it takes a lot of work to get standings to anchor a POS. And it takes even more work to keep it running. I highly doubt that a POS owner could be called 'noob'. You want to war-dec the 'noobs'? Fine. You can still do that. In fact, why don't you do that? From my perspective low sec and 0.0 pos's are nerfed. High sec pos is still too easy to obtain. Also they're a lot harder to run. They can also be attacked without a 24 hour warning. I'm well aware of all the requirements to put up a high sec pos and the issues of obtaining an appropriate corp standing. In my opinion I do not consider someone being an expert and persistant mission runner to necessarily be an expert player of eve. I have seen 2 year players act and smack like noobs. While they might be ebayers sometimes they need to be put in line. War decs and low sec/0.0 pvp are a way of sorting out all this smacktalk and diffusing tensions. They also make players more considerate and polite to others. I have no issue with war decing smacktalking noobs, however I don't think new players should be blown up just for being new. Nothing wrong with stealing their ore though. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:22:00 - [12] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 19/02/2007 05:20:22 Oh, so you want to blow up NOOB POSes in High-Sec AND you are an ore thief? What they did to you anyway? I might side with your cause if their smacktalking is found to be worthy of punishment.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:24:00 - [13] Originally by: Shameless Avenger 1st, like many of your kind have said many times on carebear threads: If you don't like it, don't play! (I always wanted to say that). Originally by: Devian 666 High sec research pos's are a source of isk without any risk if the corp is configured correctly Please explain how the $@#$#& a High-POS is a source of ISK. Is it more of an ISK sink that anything else. Oh, and a recruitment tool maybe. The only difference between doing research in POS Vs NPC stations is time. Instead of waiting a frigging year for that BS BPO to be decently researched, you will wait a few months. That's all. Everything else regarding a POS is an expense. NOT a profit. I don't have an issue with a well rounded pos with a research lab or two and some guns. It's the all research lab pos's (with no defense) that I'm concerned about. Once you've ME researched enough BPOs then get some decent copying underway and sell the copies on the market. I know enough players making substantial amounts from bpc sales to handily pay for all the pos expenses. That comes down to selecting (and investing in) the right bpos. If you don't know how to make profit from a high sec pos then change your operation around so it does, or offline and unanchor. The only time I'd run a loss making pos is if it is a pvp platform in low sec or 0.0. Cool an orange sig
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:31:00 - [14] Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/02/2007 05:27:51 Originally by: Shameless Avenger Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 19/02/2007 05:20:22 Oh, so you want to blow up NOOB POSes in High-Sec AND you are an ore thief? What they did to you anyway? I might side with your cause if their smacktalking is found to be worthy of punishment. I don't think you understand what I do. I only act as a pos destruction consultant. I advise people. I would only down a pos if I thought it were worthwhile or someone had smacktalked me to some ridiculous level. The only purpose of this thread is to establish if the Concorde response is bugged. If we can't blow up pos's and steal ore the game will lose players. Ore theft is fun and some of the worst thieves are miners themselves. High sec pos destruction is a challange as well. Having a challange is fun and makes the game worth playing. Also don't judge me too heavily on pirate type matters as I've consulted more on protection of pos's than on destroying high sec pos's. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:36:00 - [15] In the case of BPC sellers. The ISK they generate is not directly connected to the POS. The POS make the research come faster, like I said before, but that's it. IMHO, selling BPCs is lame. About the guns, I agree that High sec POSes should have some. I always recommend some guns in any setup, just in case. About my personal POS operation, I have other reasons for running the research POS... It's not about ISK.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Devian 666 The only purpose of this thread is to establish if the Concorde response is bugged. We can argue for hours if it is a bug or not. But afaik, there's not official response from CCP saying one or the other. IMHO, it's not a bug, it's a feature
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/02/2007 05:51:17 Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/02/2007 05:50:55 I understand that you have other reasons for running your pos the way you want and I'm not attacking your style of play either. I'm going to file a bug report but in parallel I'll be doing a test to make sure. Oh and discussing/arguing about pos mechanics is worthwhile as can only help improve the game. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Devian 666 Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/02/2007 05:51:17 Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/02/2007 05:50:55 I understand that you have other reasons for running your pos the way you want and I'm not attacking your style of play either. I'm going to file a bug report but in parallel I'll be doing a test to make sure. Oh and discussing/arguing about pos mechanics is worthwhile as can only help improve the game. Do better, petition it. Won't be the first nor the last.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Devian 666 Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/02/2007 05:51:17 Edited by: Devian 666 on 19/02/2007 05:50:55 I understand that you have other reasons for running your pos the way you want and I'm not attacking your style of play either. I'm going to file a bug report but in parallel I'll be doing a test to make sure. Oh and discussing/arguing about pos mechanics is worthwhile as can only help improve the game. Do better, petition it. Won't be the first nor the last. I've put up a petition (I hate doing that) and will bust out the alt to do a test. Cool an orange sig
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:18:00 - [20] Originally by: mechtech Sure, taking away concord protection might let a few smack talking noobs get what they deserve, but it would destroy everything else high sec POSs are for, namely: 1) Rented out research POSs. Who would pay to put a BPO in a POS that might get blown up randomly from a cheap war dec? 2) Building T2 items faster with rapid assembly labs. With the risk of the whole operation coming to a halt for up to a week, as well as the cost of a new POS, no industrialist will ever bring the Tech 2 BPOs out of NPC stations. Now, you are entitled to your opinion, but the majority's opinion is that making them war targets takes much more away from the game than it adds. There is enough stuff to shoot already, TBH. If CCP thinks there is a problem with too few research slots existing than they can fix that problem by adding more/stopping removed research jobs from taking up slots. You fix the problem if there is one, you don't bandaid fix it by changing other systems to work outside the standard ruleset. If stations can be blown up then it makes it a bigger risk to put BPO's in stations, but people will still do it if they need research slots. It will mean that researched BPO prices will rise, which is a good thing. Currently people sell researched BPO's of lots of ships for UNDER cost because no one is buying them. There is a flood of researched BPO's currently... so making it riskier is a good thing imo. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: mechtech Sure, taking away concord protection might let a few smack talking noobs get what they deserve, but it would destroy everything else high sec POSs are for, namely: 1) Rented out research POSs. Who would pay to put a BPO in a POS that might get blown up randomly from a cheap war dec? 2) Building T2 items faster with rapid assembly labs. With the risk of the whole operation coming to a halt for up to a week, as well as the cost of a new POS, no industrialist will ever bring the Tech 2 BPOs out of NPC stations. Now, you are entitled to your opinion, but the majority's opinion is that making them war targets takes much more away from the game than it adds. There is enough stuff to shoot already, TBH. If CCP thinks there is a problem with too few research slots existing than they can fix that problem by adding more/stopping removed research jobs from taking up slots. You fix the problem if there is one, you don't bandaid fix it by changing other systems to work outside the standard ruleset. If stations can be blown up then it makes it a bigger risk to put BPO's in stations, but people will still do it if they need research slots. It will mean that researched BPO prices will rise, which is a good thing. Currently people sell researched BPO's of lots of ships for UNDER cost because no one is buying them. There is a flood of researched BPO's currently... so making it riskier is a good thing imo. #1, BPOs don't go in the POS. They stay safely in an NPC station and get researched via 'remote research'. If the POS if blown up, the BPO returns safely to the NPC station hangar. #2 Researched BPO Flod? Where? Please let me know, so I could buy some. #3 IF CCP increases the NPC slots, I would offline my POS inmediatelly. I'm all for it! This frigging tower cost a fortune to mantain. More NPC slots will be so easy.. no more fuel hauling! Easy-mode FTW! YES!
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: mechtech Sure, taking away concord protection might let a few smack talking noobs get what they deserve, but it would destroy everything else high sec POSs are for, namely: 1) Rented out research POSs. Who would pay to put a BPO in a POS that might get blown up randomly from a cheap war dec? 2) Building T2 items faster with rapid assembly labs. With the risk of the whole operation coming to a halt for up to a week, as well as the cost of a new POS, no industrialist will ever bring the Tech 2 BPOs out of NPC stations. Now, you are entitled to your opinion, but the majority's opinion is that making them war targets takes much more away from the game than it adds. There is enough stuff to shoot already, TBH. If CCP thinks there is a problem with too few research slots existing than they can fix that problem by adding more/stopping removed research jobs from taking up slots. You fix the problem if there is one, you don't bandaid fix it by changing other systems to work outside the standard ruleset. If stations can be blown up then it makes it a bigger risk to put BPO's in stations, but people will still do it if they need research slots. It will mean that researched BPO prices will rise, which is a good thing. Currently people sell researched BPO's of lots of ships for UNDER cost because no one is buying them. There is a flood of researched BPO's currently... so making it riskier is a good thing imo. #1, BPOs don't go in the POS. They stay safely in an NPC station and get researched via 'remote research'. If the POS if blown up, the BPO returns safely to the NPC station hangar. #2 Researched BPO Flod? Where? Please let me know, so I could buy some. #3 IF CCP increases the NPC slots, I would offline my POS inmediatelly. I'm all for it! This frigging tower cost a fortune to mantain. More NPC slots will be so easy.. no more fuel hauling! Easy-mode FTW! YES! 1) Shhh! Don't tell people that they might use the info. 3) If they increase the slots they will immediately be filled up with players researching Antimater S to ME 1500. Cool an orange sig
Dravin Dread	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Devian 666 3) If they increase the slots they will immediately be filled up with players researching Antimater S to ME 1500. Very true. The best solution is let players handle it with tools given to them. The effort it takes to do it is significant and allowing griefer corps to shoot them down is BS.
Grimreaperr The Eternal Knights	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:21:00 - [24] I am the ower of the war decked POS you are talking about. We were war decked as a resulut of making a comment to Romeo which as usual he did not like, for those who do not know Romeo, he swindled about 75 billion out of honest players trusting him to do there research. As for me and my corp being noobs we are far from it and have no worries about our POS, it's well defended concorde protected or not; plus all BPO are safe in NPC stations. Only Romeo is the NOOB.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Dravin Dread Originally by: Devian 666 3) If they increase the slots they will immediately be filled up with players researching Antimater S to ME 1500. Very true. The best solution is let players handle it with tools given to them. The effort it takes to do it is significant and allowing griefer corps to shoot them down is BS. True, I was just being sarcastic
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 14:02:00 - [26] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 19/02/2007 14:00:21 Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 19/02/2007 13:59:20 Originally by: Grimreaperr I am the ower of the war decked POS you are talking about. We were war decked as a resulut of making a comment to Romeo which as usual he did not like, for those who do not know Romeo, he swindled about 75 billion out of honest players trusting him to do there research. As for me and my corp being noobs we are far from it and have no worries about our POS, it's well defended concorde protected or not; plus all BPO are safe in NPC stations. Only Romeo is the NOOB. I suspected as much when I replied to the original thread on the issue. Good luck in your war mate.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.19 19:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Grimreaperr I am the ower of the war decked POS you are talking about. We were war decked as a resulut of making a comment to Romeo which as usual he did not like, for those who do not know Romeo, he swindled about 75 billion out of honest players trusting him to do there research. As for me and my corp being noobs we are far from it and have no worries about our POS, it's well defended concorde protected or not; plus all BPO are safe in NPC stations. Only Romeo is the NOOB. I'm sure we'll all be amused to see how this one pans out and if Rome0 can back up his smack. Cool an orange sig
SencneS Amarr Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 22:30:00 - [28] Small point here... How are you going to get the Dread into said High Sec space to take down the POS in a timely fashion? or are you just planning to keep tossing Battleships at it? ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Frisky Minx	Posted - 2007.02.19 22:51:00 - [29] Originally by: SencneS Small point here... How are you going to get the Dread into said High Sec space to take down the POS in a timely fashion? or are you just planning to keep tossing Battleships at it? you do know that there are dreads and carriers being built in high sec right?? Im not talking 01-04, but as high as 08? And yes, you can't jump into one of the sec systems, Im sure that the owners of these pos's have dreads at there disposal just for the off chance that someone gets "froggy". I pity whoever decs one of them...
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.19 23:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Devian 666 I'm sure we'll all be amused to see how this one pans out and if Rome0 can back up his smack. It seems he can't. He went asking for help and advice on the crime & punishment forum.

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