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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Fitz VonHeise United Connection's	Posted - 2007.02.28 00:27:00 - [91] Originally by: Devian 666 I'd accept your idea if bpos had to be placed inside the mobile research lab in high sec. No the BPO's stay researched where they are... What a POS owner will be losing if they are WarDec'ed is the research time that will be lost. (You can put in BPO's for up to a month to research.) All that research would be gone if POS is taken down. You are disrupting the economics of the Corp owning the POS. That is the billions of lost isk I refer to. (as well as the cost to replace the POS and other destroyed items.) Those who want to destroy any POS need to pay a REAL COST to do so. A billion would work. Those who own the POS lose and those who destroy it need to really want to.
Akashi Motojiro	Posted - 2007.02.28 02:22:00 - [92] He should have no problem in paying even a trillion for the wardec. After all, he claims to know an uber way to turn a pos into an "ISK printing machine" so profitable that could spell doom for eve's economy.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.28 02:28:00 - [93] I seem to have missed something in the calculation. 11 mobile labs x 12 research slots = 132 slots 1.3m/day/slot x 132 slots = 171.6m /day Average loss of revenue over 10 days = 171.6m /day x 10 days = 1.716b The 1.7b isk loss is the immediate short term loss. The loss of labs and ct can be avoided by shutting down the labs (you will most definitly lose the above income calculation), then setting up defenses and hiring mercenaries. If you have a war dec don't just leave the labs sitting out there they are expensive. Given the potential 6 month income loss from not attempting to defend the pos sitting at 200b isk isn't it worth paying the isk for decent mercenaries to squash the attackers? Also the other option is to shut down the pos until the war is over. You wouldn't lose the capital cost of the pos only the short term revenue and some customers. You'd need to do some customer relations work and set up the pos in a new location etc, but that looks better than losing everything. Cool an orange sig
Akashi Motojiro	Posted - 2007.02.28 06:08:00 - [94] Originally by: Devian 666 I seem to have missed something in the calculation. 11 mobile labs x 12 research slots = 132 slots 1.3m/day/slot x 132 slots = 171.6m /day Average loss of revenue over 10 days = 171.6m /day x 10 days = 1.716b And finally, some math! \0/ Now exactly from where did you get the idea that a mobile lab has 12 research slots? Fitz was clear, it's 12 slots. Research are only 3. And this is your uber profitable POS? renting slots at 1.3M when there are available slots in empire (not for research but...)? Maybe a few guys with the right clients could pull it off but, seriously... this is what's going to ruin eve's economy? So you don't care about smacktalking noobs as you said in the begining. You just want to blow up your competition. Try maybe, providing a better service? You know, from the client's point of view, if I wanted to research a valuable BPO, I wouldn't hire the guy that spent days on the forums promoting POS war decs. Not the best PR for the bussines.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.28 06:36:00 - [95] Originally by: Redsan Originally by: Devian 666 I'm tired of all these greedy people wanting to print isk to inflate the already highly inflated market atm. High Sec PoS's do not bring money into the economy, in fact they remove money from the economy, and thus are anti-inflationary. They do shift money around among players, but this is not inflationary. Sorry I originally missed your post in the sea of posts on this page. The thing about currency circulation that concerns me is not adding most isk to the economy it's getting people to spend the isk. The overall amount of isk in eve increases every day. A player with 100b isk and never spends any of it isn't really a concern. However, once the money goes into circulation (in the player economy) then demand and supply is affected. More spending is more demand in general terms. You are quite correct that there is an definite isk sinking effect from pos's. However, I'm not sure that the isk sinking effect is sufficient to offset the inflationary pressure though. Cool an orange sig
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.28 06:46:00 - [96] Originally by: Akashi Motojiro Originally by: Devian 666 I seem to have missed something in the calculation. 11 mobile labs x 12 research slots = 132 slots 1.3m/day/slot x 132 slots = 171.6m /day Average loss of revenue over 10 days = 171.6m /day x 10 days = 1.716b And finally, some math! \0/ Now exactly from where did you get the idea that a mobile lab has 12 research slots? Fitz was clear, it's 12 slots. Research are only 3. And this is your uber profitable POS? renting slots at 1.3M when there are available slots in empire (not for research but...)? Maybe a few guys with the right clients could pull it off but, seriously... this is what's going to ruin eve's economy? So you don't care about smacktalking noobs as you said in the begining. You just want to blow up your competition. Try maybe, providing a better service? You know, from the client's point of view, if I wanted to research a valuable BPO, I wouldn't hire the guy that spent days on the forums promoting POS war decs. Not the best PR for the bussines. Finally a more civilised post When I talk about research pos's I mean all aspects of mobile labs (though the profitibility of an invention slot is questionable as there are many free in empire). So to be very clear I'm not just talking about me slots. This isn't my model of a profitable pos as the earnings are too low and doesn't involve running a public pos. My model is based on my friends very functional profitable pos. Do I think mobile labs on pos's are a bad unbalancing thing. No. What does concern me is if they're loaded to the hilt with mobile labs. I just don't think that there should be very very large volumes of mobile labs in high sec. Tbh if the bug isn't fixed I might not have any choice to set up my own undefended research pos. Might as well milk the isk as it's risk free and the time spent managing it is worthwhile for the returns. I wouldn't run a public pos as it's too much hassle and I have enough whining clients at work. That and you can ask Fritz about his unfortunate past experiences with research pos + R0me0. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.28 07:42:00 - [97] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 28/02/2007 07:39:08 Originally by: Devian 666 Finally a more civilised post more civilized? But but, you were the one... bah About the model(renting POS slots), like I said, it may work. I'm not putting to much faith in it. If you have friends with big wallets AND if they don't want to do it themselves, it could work. But by the ammount of people that have been posting about that for months, I predict competition won't let you charge 1.3M a day. What sets apart one research service from another is only one thing, trust. And that may be nerfed if CCP decides to make it posible to set slots as 'public' for a fee. The interface for doing it is already there (it just doesn't work). By then, you won't need to handle over the BPO to the research guy. Still: It's not a bug until CCP says so.

Oiri Yusko Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.02.28 07:45:00 - [98] May I remind everybody to stay respectful toward each other. Thanks! \/ forum rules\|[email protected]

Redsan	Posted - 2007.02.28 07:48:00 - [99] Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Redsan Originally by: Devian 666 I'm tired of all these greedy people wanting to print isk to inflate the already highly inflated market atm. High Sec PoS's do not bring money into the economy, in fact they remove money from the economy, and thus are anti-inflationary. They do shift money around among players, but this is not inflationary. Sorry I originally missed your post in the sea of posts on this page. The thing about currency circulation that concerns me is not adding most isk to the economy it's getting people to spend the isk. The overall amount of isk in eve increases every day. A player with 100b isk and never spends any of it isn't really a concern. However, once the money goes into circulation (in the player economy) then demand and supply is affected. More spending is more demand in general terms. You are quite correct that there is an definite isk sinking effect from pos's. However, I'm not sure that the isk sinking effect is sufficient to offset the inflationary pressure though. PoS's do not bring ISK into the game, which would be required for them to be a factor for inflation. PoS's have a negligable effect on the overall economy, and most definatly do not, in any way, shape or form, contribute to inflation. The most they do is move money from one player to another, which does not generate inflation. If you are trying to suggest POS's as not doing enough to ofset inflationary pressure from other ISK creating activities(Missions and NPC bouties as an example), I am not sure if that is there role in things.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.28 08:56:00 - [100] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 28/02/2007 07:39:08 Originally by: Devian 666 Finally a more civilised post more civilized? But but, you were the one... bah About the model(renting POS slots), like I said, it may work. I'm not putting to much faith in it. If you have friends with big wallets AND if they don't want to do it themselves, it could work. But by the ammount of people that have been posting about that for months, I predict competition won't let you charge 1.3M a day. What sets apart one research service from another is only one thing, trust. And that may be nerfed if CCP decides to make it posible to set slots as 'public' for a fee. The interface for doing it is already there (it just doesn't work). By then, you won't need to handle over the BPO to the research guy. Still: It's not a bug until CCP says so. Competition will pick up for public research pos's but there is an entry barrier of the captial cost of setting up the pos. The profitability of the public research pos under the current mechanics will always be a problem especially where scamming is concerned. In terms of current rates charged have a look at those running these services. They a the experts in this area. I suspect the ME services are the ones in hot demand given the state of NPC stations. At this point I haven't received a response to my petition in relation to this. So this bug will remain in the game until further notice from CCP. That means I'm gonna have to run some numbers as to what's required for my captial investment to milk isk. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.28 10:25:00 - [101] If you have the clients, you can start with a small gallente tower, 3 labs + one corp hangar. According to your math, thats 3 * 12 * 1.3M = 43M daily. Should have enough to spam a few large POS in no time.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.02.28 10:52:00 - [102] Edited by: Devian 666 on 28/02/2007 10:49:35 Nah I was thinking I might sell a spare combat ship or borrow my friends spare small tower. It's the additional bpos I'll need that will set me back. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:30:00 - [103] Well, you can always wardec a research/industry corp with a big tower fully fitted with labs. Can't blow their POS for now, but sure you can demand the surrender of one or 2 labs to stop the wardec. By forcing them to keep the freighters docked, they will sure lose more than that if they keep the wardec going.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.28 12:22:00 - [104] Originally by: "Known Issues" Players get a standing hit when they destroy starbases in empire space that belong to corporations they are at war with. It's on the bugfix radar now. I know what's going to be said, 'standing hit' and CONCORD are not the same. No, they're not, but they are intimately linked. If the intention is not to get a standing hit when attacking an empire POS that belongs to someone you are at war with then it follows you are not supposed to be criminally-flagged and, in high-sec, you are not supposed to be CONCORDOKKENED. So there you are, it's a bug. Officially. Cosmo The Star Fraction Recruitment
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.02.28 13:02:00 - [105] I believe that is in responce to the standing hit you get in low sec pos warfare. Bus it does says 'empire'. And yet it doesn't mention concord protection to hi sec pos. Will have to wait and see.
Melkinor T'sbanion Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.01 09:09:00 - [106] Originally by: Devian 666 Sorry for sounding concerned that people want eve to become a total carebear game step by step to the point where what we have got is ruined. ... Hey, when they do make empire space totally carebearish and you can't grief someone who calls you names or, heaven forbid, smacktalks you in local and you decide to quit: CAN I HAVE YOUR S***T?
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.01 20:41:00 - [107] I have an answer to the whole thing, directly related to Risk vs. Rewards (since that is one of the main gripes). Simply, building a POS for a small-medium Empire Corp is a huge investment in time and resources that will take forever to get back. Remember, they don't have access to T2 BPOs to print money, they can't build Cap ships in the prospective systems, etc. So it takes a lot of time to generate a return on the investment, more time that it takes to return the investment of a BS while running missions. Make the WarDec reflect that. The POS is seriously contributing to the economy of the systems it resides in with its work force and manufacturing capabilities. It is a BLOW to the area, financially, to have it disappear. THink what happened in places like Pittsburgh when their steel mills shutdown. So, since the value of the POS is high outside of its value to the corp that put it up, make the WarDec prices reflect that rather than a simple 5M and you get to destroy billions of ISK in the local economy. WarDec a corp/alliance with shoot rights on their small POS? Add 200M to the cost of the initial WarDec. A medium POS? 500M. A large POS? 1Billion. That reflects the impact to the local economy, basically you are putting into escrow to "insure" economic fallout for the inhabitants of the area. Note this is only if you want to shoot at the POS, otherwise the cost is the same as a standard wardec regardless because if you DO force the corp out of business the local government would logically claim the POS as thier own. They don't care if the corp is destroyed, but they do care about the economic impact of the POS leaving their system. <-----------> oveur --> Eve is PRIMARILY a PvP game. Primarily != 100%
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.03.01 21:11:00 - [108] Originally by: Melkinor T'sbanion Originally by: Devian 666 Sorry for sounding concerned that people want eve to become a total carebear game step by step to the point where what we have got is ruined. ... Hey, when they do make empire space totally carebearish and you can't grief someone who calls you names or, heaven forbid, smacktalks you in local and you decide to quit: CAN I HAVE YOUR S***T? What exactly did you contribute with this post? I would rather trash my t2 fitted ships before leaving than give anything to someone who trolls without any originality or creativity. Put some effort in next time. Cool an orange sig
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.03.01 21:21:00 - [109] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I have an answer to the whole thing, directly related to Risk vs. Rewards (since that is one of the main gripes). Simply, building a POS for a small-medium Empire Corp is a huge investment in time and resources that will take forever to get back. Remember, they don't have access to T2 BPOs to print money, they can't build Cap ships in the prospective systems, etc. So it takes a lot of time to generate a return on the investment, more time that it takes to return the investment of a BS while running missions. Make the WarDec reflect that. The POS is seriously contributing to the economy of the systems it resides in with its work force and manufacturing capabilities. It is a BLOW to the area, financially, to have it disappear. THink what happened in places like Pittsburgh when their steel mills shutdown. So, since the value of the POS is high outside of its value to the corp that put it up, make the WarDec prices reflect that rather than a simple 5M and you get to destroy billions of ISK in the local economy. WarDec a corp/alliance with shoot rights on their small POS? Add 200M to the cost of the initial WarDec. A medium POS? 500M. A large POS? 1Billion. That reflects the impact to the local economy, basically you are putting into escrow to "insure" economic fallout for the inhabitants of the area. Note this is only if you want to shoot at the POS, otherwise the cost is the same as a standard wardec regardless because if you DO force the corp out of business the local government would logically claim the POS as thier own. They don't care if the corp is destroyed, but they do care about the economic impact of the POS leaving their system. Currently there are a large number of players hiding behind alliances (so a 50m war dec is required) and this spawned the concept of the privateers who collectively contribute to war decs. By attaching the war dec cost to the size and/or number of pos's the corp owns does two things. 1) people hide behind a big pos corp the same way they hide behind alliances. 2) the cost of the war dec gives away what assets a corp has making them a significant target. If someone is prepared to spend 1b isk to war dec your corp then they're going to want their moneys worth. Also how would this apply to corps with low sec pos's? Consider that corps would put up 10 large pos's so it would take 10b isk to war dec them. This would effectively be about pricing out any possibility of war occuring in empire. What you are suggesting is about eliminating pvp from high sec. There is already too much protection of corps hiding in high sec I don't see how protecting them more adds anything to the game. Cool an orange sig
Fitz VonHeise United Connection's	Posted - 2007.03.03 18:20:00 - [110] Originally by: Devian 666 This would effectively be about pricing out any possibility of war occuring in empire. What you are suggesting is about eliminating pvp from high sec. No it is about making it cost something to those who want to kill an expensive asset of a Corp. A cost you evidently don't want to pay.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.03.04 09:55:00 - [111] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Originally by: Devian 666 This would effectively be about pricing out any possibility of war occuring in empire. What you are suggesting is about eliminating pvp from high sec. No it is about making it cost something to those who want to kill an expensive asset of a Corp. A cost you evidently don't want to pay. I've been thinking about the effect of this 1b isk war dec. If you got war dec'd the group would be dedicated at that cost to wiping an entire corp and assets out. It would also force various aggressors to operate as a collective, while at the same time focusing their attention on a smaller number of corps. Consider the Privateers operating 60+ wars at a cost of a minimum of 3b per week possibly an average of around 6b isk per week. Now if all the corps run a high sec pos for protection that cash would go from funding 60 wars down to 3 to 6 wars. This is not really about whether I want to pay the cost it's about what the effect is on gameplay and the way players will adapt. You also want to consider that if you need help defend a pos under attack and the attackers have a pos then to hire mercenaries to defend your pos will cost considerably more than 1b isk. The 1b isk requirement is only a higher barrier and it doesn't provide protection. Cool an orange sig
CampyloBacter Gallente Enteritis Inc	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:46:00 - [112] As a 35 milion SP character, I am not a 'noob', nor am I a 'smack talker'. I am an empire carebear who never ventures out of secure space because I choose to avail myself of the protection of Concorde, just as I choose to live in RL in a nice safe neighbourhood where I can bring my kids up safely. I happen to agree with many of the quite well argued points that 666 has put, but I must confess to being slightly surprised by some of the egotistical frailty shown in many of the posts. Is 'smack-talking' seriously a reason to war-dec? Frankly it seems a little puerile to me, but hey if you have cash to throw away on a war just to massage your bruised ego, then who am I to argue? Just imagine if humanity went to war everytime a politician took offence to the comments of one of his adversaries. I think we'd be in a pretty shI**ty state as a planet. Yes I know Eve is founded on PVP, and I do my fair share of the (indirect) type from Empire space. I have no objection to fair play in the case of this undoubted bug, but might I (respectfully, to avoid being war-decced) suggest that you stop being so insufferingly patronising and speaking down to people as if you have a divine right to do so? If you don't agree, then fine, but the tone of your posts implies that anyone who hasn't got as many SP as you or hasn't done as much PVP as you has less right to an opinion. That my friend is untrue. Everybody who pays CCP a subscription has as much right to have their say as you, whether you like it or not. I hope I haven't upset you enough to get a war dec.
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:52:00 - [113] Edited by: Devian 666 on 04/03/2007 23:50:04 To understand the mindset you have to look at it from the perspective of the other side. In general pvpers look for trouble so having an excuse to shoot at people as is good as any. When it comes to war dec piracy then the goal is profit which either comes from shooting down soft targets for loot, or ransom the corp. Smack talk comes in all manner of varieties ranging from amusing to ridiculous to nonsensical. The smacktalk provides entertainment for pvpers and pirates alike, and often treated as sport. Anyone who pirates is on the receiving end of significant amounts of abuse which could be petitioned but is laughed off instead. There are a large number of players that think they have the right to abuse anyone who pirates, but it is a part of the game. Anyone who has personally attacked me in this thread is fair game for the brunt of my comments. In my opinion I don't consider that your state of the real world applies as eve is a game and conflict is required to create pvp. Why play a pvp game that has no pvp? The current interest in high sec at the moment for most pvp and pirating activity as it's where most of the targets are. Low sec is ok but there's insufficient pvp to keep things entertaining. 0.0 is a bit of fun but running into 50 man gate camps under the current game mechanics takes away most of the challenge as you're either being blobbed or blobbing people in high traffic areas. You should note that this thread started as a simple question but has expanded into a more significant discussion, with randoms jumping in to claim I'm an evil person and try to claim that my opinion doesn't matter because of how I play eve. I have every right to post my opinions, justify my reasoning and cut down people who personally attack me in an attempt to derail this thread. Don't get sucked into the emotional side to this thread. Cool an orange sig
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:00:00 - [114] And here we go again to the personal attacks claims.
Fitz VonHeise United Connection's	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:10:00 - [115] Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 05/03/2007 04:10:13 Originally by: Devian 666 Now if all the corps run a high sec pos for protection that cash would go from funding 60 wars down to 3 to 6 wars. Yes... perfectly stated. Instead of wardec'ing a corp's POS over stupid reasons (they smacktalked me) because the cost is so little the wardec'ers would have to think about whether it is worth the price. And would more often then not opt to go after the members rather then their assets. Sounds good to me!
Devian 666 KAIZEN BROTHERHOOD	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:19:00 - [116] While I don't agree with it there is some merit. What I don't want to see is giant blobbing groups crushing small and medium sized corps into oblivion though. The warfare would end up a lot more concentrated. While it could be fun it would be sad to have smaller corps crushed completely because of a war. Cool an orange sig
Devian 666 Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.07 02:06:00 - [117] I have had Senior GM confirmation that the Concorde response is bugged and will be fixed in the future. Cool an orange sig
Jastra Gallente Gallente Venture Inc	Posted - 2007.03.08 11:12:00 - [118] Edited by: Jastra on 08/03/2007 11:08:36 I've been thinking about this. I agree that in principal it's unfair you cant attack a high sec pos for a corp that you wardec, it's just not "realistic". Why would concord protect it but not your ships (and this is despite really wanting to put one up ) I am not sure what happens to blueprints in a destroyed POS, do they return to the NPC station. If so, then would a possible answer just to be to allow insurance on POS towers ? - this allows the nervous owner to offset some of the risk of losing a lot of capital outlay whilst still allowing warring corps to shoot pos's ?
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.03.08 14:07:00 - [119] Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 08/03/2007 14:05:59 Originally by: Jastra ... allow insurance on POS towers ? /signed! I believe it's better than raising the cost of the wardecs and it does follow the same mechanics as ship loses. I love the idea. Devian, Fitz: what do you think? About Devian's petition responce, I'm glad you get a responce at all. All my emails have never been answered. I do know one guy that lost some ships back in December 2006 while attacking a wardeced hi-sec pos (concordokken), he petitioned, reimburshment was denied (or so he said). I do remember another guy that experienced the same situation, and this one actually made a thread about it. This one was back in Dec 03, 2006 but he never updated with a responce from his bug-report. Maybe we could eve-mail him to see what happened on his case.
Meek also	Posted - 2007.03.08 19:59:00 - [120] First: saying "A Dev told me it's a bug and it's gonna be fixed" really doesn't hold any weight.. Also if it's in response to a Petition, you run the risk of getting a warning / edited as you are not allowed to quote Petition responses.. Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about this.. I agree that using charters is, in essence, buying some form of protection.. But I don't like the idea of a POS being invincible.. Granted, if the POS is offline.. i.e. no charters.. then it should be fair game to a war dec..

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