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The recent ECM Nerf, a cut too deep?

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Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2007.02.28 18:40:00 - [91] I was perma jammed by a rook in my nighthawk till my tank eventually died to him and his buddies. In my experience the rook's jamming couldn't have been better. It almost made me go out and buy one. 'Nough Said. D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2007.02.28 19:39:00 - [92] Originally by: Veryez I completely agree, ECCM and ECM were very well balanced then. I even carried projected ECCM sometimes to help my gang mates, since I had enough tank to stay close to them (for some time at least). The Scorpion is my favorite PvP ship by a wide margin, but it just can't help groups like a Raven or Rokh can. All they do is sit in my hanger now Same here, there really isn't any reason for bringing a scorp instead of a rokh or a raven. It's a shame cause they could really have added some flavor but they just do not compare... I hope they buff the dedicated ships so they do not rust up in the hangar...
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.28 20:11:00 - [93] Edited by: welsh wizard on 28/02/2007 20:11:12 Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Veryez Originally by: welsh wizard It was almost perfect for a very short time (About 3 weeks?) pre-Kali when ECCM was buffed. Now they've just removed said module from the game again. I mean whats the point in its existence? They went too far with the nerf post-kali. I completely agree, ECCM and ECM were very well balanced then. I even carried projected ECCM sometimes to help my gang mates, since I had enough tank to stay close to them (for some time at least). The Scorpion is my favorite PvP ship by a wide margin, but it just can't help groups like a Raven or Rokh can. All they do is sit in my hanger now It was ballanced in 1vs1 situation. 10 ships with 1 multispec of doom vs 10 ships with backup ... Best outcome for backupers was not getting jammed. Seriously, ECM is fine. All you need to do is pick ship with ECM bonus and FIT it for jamming and voila, it works. Nobody fits backups anyway as they are worthless(i remember flying domi with 2 medslot ECCM and still getting jammed all the time). 1 backup is waste of slot, because 1 stupid bb with few multis will still nerly permajam 1bs. Sensor booster will perform better, at least it gives you small chance to put drones on jammer or nosfs. Well I guess our experiences have differed then Luke. Fighting Xelas invariably meant being jammed at least once during a fight when ECM was still borked. Then ECCM was buffed... Celes bs started fitting one low-slot and one mid-slot ECCM to counter the almost exclusively caldari/gallente Xelas fleets. Practically overnight jamming was quashed. I can tell you this from personal experience and even quoting a Xelas member who was confused as to why Celes ships were suddenly almost impossible to jam. Why? Because the Celes ships chose to sacrifice 1 or 2 precious low/med slots to fit ECCM, and it worked. Now if thats not a perfect example of a module working as intended I don't know what is? I'm pretty much certain being in BoB you never decided to try ECCM out against an ECM zerg. You probably just carried on fitting for speed and damage. Apologies if this assumption is wrong but I base it on plenty of experience fighting you, minimal ECM and plenty of speed/hurt. When in Celes we actively fit ECCM to counter the zerg and it worked well with the close range philosophy the corp used to employ. Based on my experiences ECM was almost a perfect system at that point. Still massively effective unless the target was fit to counter it.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.28 21:04:00 - [94] Originally by: welsh wizard ...stuff that I mostly agree... BUT: Backups were dice standard(and ATUK). Let's be honest, fleets of alliances with less sp heavy players are (or at least used to be) jammer heavy. ASCN was fielding fleets with 20-30 scorps (up to 30% of bs sometime) and that was mainly pre-kali ecm nerf. Was it effective? No. But it was annoying enough that people started to fit backups again. But let's be honest, skilled EW pilots are rare as hell. I can usually field rook with maxed skills, but usually i don't unless if it's roaming trip. Reason is too obvious, you don't field jamming ship when you can have insta damage. But my problem with EW never really was fleets. It was... look he's jamming alot, primary.. problem solved. Problem was smaller gangs(up to 15-20), where jaming was mother of god, 3 plates and 5 jammers on raven/domi, combined with few wcs. -------- .....
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.01 14:02:00 - [95] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: welsh wizard ...stuff that I mostly agree... BUT: Backups were dice standard(and ATUK). Let's be honest, fleets of alliances with less sp heavy players are (or at least used to be) jammer heavy. ASCN was fielding fleets with 20-30 scorps (up to 30% of bs sometime) and that was mainly pre-kali ecm nerf. Was it effective? No. But it was annoying enough that people started to fit backups again. But let's be honest, skilled EW pilots are rare as hell. I can usually field rook with maxed skills, but usually i don't unless if it's roaming trip. Reason is too obvious, you don't field jamming ship when you can have insta damage. But my problem with EW never really was fleets. It was... look he's jamming alot, primary.. problem solved. Problem was smaller gangs(up to 15-20), where jaming was mother of god, 3 plates and 5 jammers on raven/domi, combined with few wcs. Now that I think of it... I must totaly agree. Back then our low-SP members were advised to fly Scorpions in fleetfights, if they were unable to fly a tech2 BS. Anyone capable to fly a direct damage tech2 BS usualy flew one. So the job was left only for those that relly loved the challenge of coordinating cyclejamming and those that were unable to fly tech2 BSs or Ceptors. Since the patch, I just saw a handfull Scorps in total during fleetfights. Neither our nor the enemy sides seem to have flown them any longer. Regarding small-scale engagements: An ECM platform ROCKS of course. Ganking a much inferior force will leave enough pilots leftover on your side to fly ECM ships and might help reduce your losses completely to zero. The thing is different if meeting an equaly sized force though...
Elrich Zann Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2007.03.01 23:00:00 - [96] I believe the problem is one of balance, and what is fair. I propose the following: any ECM specific ship should have a 50% chance to jam a ship of equivalent class, assuming max skills, using 1 racial ECM and 1 Signal distortion amp (best of each). The average theoretical battleship has a sensor strength of 21.1. The average theoretical cruiser has a sensor strength of 14.2. I wonÆt go into frigates. Here in lies the problem, all 3 ECM specific t1 ships have an ECM strength of 8.1. Thus by this estimation the griffin and the blackbird are slightly overpowered, and the Scorpion slightly underpowered. To further the discussion the t2 ships should have a 50% chance to jam a battleship. By this reasoning the falcon is underpowered and the Rook is fine (ECM Strength of 10.8). The fallacy of range. With maximum skills a Scorpion can jam out to 243k, however optimal is 162k, and falloff 40.5k. Therefore a Scorpion jumping in @ 200k (technically 202.5k) has about a 50% chance of ômissingö with ECM and has an effective strength of around 4. This is why the proposed tactic of using range is not a good solution. To the proposed plan of using more than 1 signal distortion amp. Almost every ship in the game can be setup to gank or tank. Using 3xdamage mods is normally a gank setup, not minimum necessary to perform. If a scorpion pilot decides to forgo tank and go for a pure gank setup, then he/she should have the ability to choose that. This choice does not exist at this time. The ECM ôtankö. Many people have implied that the scorpion has an ôECM tankö. I believe most ECM pilots believe that ECM is a weapon and use it accordingly. This is the real reason Scorpions have become extinct, there is simply no reason to use one over a Blackbird. The problem is not ECM per say, but specific ECM ships that have been affected more than others. Thus I propose that ECM ships be adjusted to provide a 50% chance to jam an equivalent ship. This would result in a slight nerf to the griffin, no change to the blackbird and a boost to the Scorpion (to 20% per level). I also believe that t2 ships should be adjusted to be able to jam any ship, so the falcon should be boosted to 20% per level. Lastly denoting itÆs ôKing of jammingö reputation the Rook should either get a boost to 25% per level strength or 25% per level increase in optimal if the former should prove to be imbalanced.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.02 00:32:00 - [97] Originally by: Elrich Zann The fallacy of range. With maximum skills a Scorpion can jam out to 243k, however optimal is 162k, and falloff 40.5k. Therefore a Scorpion jumping in @ 200k (technically 202.5k) has about a 50% chance of ômissingö with ECM and has an effective strength of around 4. This is why the proposed tactic of using range is not a good solution. You overread or ignored that I specifically mentioned this with rigs. +ECM strength rigs share a stacking penality with ECM lowslot mods, so they not a good idea to use because they have a minimal effect. The only really useful one left are EW range rigs. With 2 of them you have an optimal range of 230k with racial ECM. Which is an higher range than any BS exept the rokh can achieve. And, yes, it increases the cost of a scorp. However not beyond the cost of a fleet fitted BS with t2 guns. Quote: To the proposed plan of using more than 1 signal distortion amp. Almost every ship in the game can be setup to gank or tank. Using 3xdamage mods is normally a gank setup, not minimum necessary to perform. If a scorpion pilot decides to forgo tank and go for a pure gank setup, then he/she should have the ability to choose that. This choice does not exist at this time. The scorp has to choose between maximizing it's physical DPS "gank" or it's EW "gank". This is not limiting the scorp because every single other BS does not even have the option to maximize it's EW "gank". Quote: The ECM ôtankö. Many people have implied that the scorpion has an ôECM tankö. I believe most ECM pilots believe that ECM is a weapon and use it accordingly. Does not change anything that it's effeciently a tank as well. And, if you consider it a weapon it does not make much sense saying that it should be able to use both of its weapons, EW and physical, at the same time with maximum effeciency. See above. It's keeping the cake and eating it. Quote: This is the real reason Scorpions have become extinct, there is simply no reason to use one over a Blackbird. Outside of having 2 more mids and lows (stronger EW) and 5 times the hitpoints (higher survivability). Quote: Thus I propose that ECM ships be adjusted to provide a 50% chance to jam an equivalent ship. The problem here is that you are ignoring the non-equivalent ships. Battleships are not the only ships in the game. And the scorp has this very 50% chance already. If he uses 3 ECM mods it has 10.6 strength on it's ECMs. It has a weak tank then, of courc,e but this is something intended by tux. In his original dev blog about ECM he said that he does not see a problem with dedicated ECM ships since they sacrfice tank for that. If they fill their lows with an armortank they don't do this.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.02 00:36:00 - [98] You know what the real problem is? It the chance based nature of ECM. Nothing in EVE is chance based and neither should ECM be. To support this claim i give the following example: My gang was annoying the hell out of the locals with a Raven, an ECM Scorp and a Stabber. They decided to fight back. The gang they threw at us was: 2 Ravens, 2 ECM Scorps and a Taranis. For some reason we decided not to run and try to fight these guys. The outcome, much to our surprise, was: 0 casualties on our side with them losing 2 Scorps and 1 Raven. How did this happen? Bear in mind all pilots were of similar age. "Easy". Our Scorp (piloted by me) had a very lucky break. I was jamming three battleships at a time (generally i cant even think of doing this, it was a freak accident) while their Scorps failed to jam anything at all. It was a massacre. And there was no way we should have won looking at the odds. Whats the point of this war story? Once you bring ECM on the table the outcome of the battle (small scale battle) becomes entirely chance based. Roll your dice and pray. This is bad. This is something people like myself(dedicated ECM pilots) have always been trying to avoid (by fly ships with ECM bonuses and using racilas, both of these increase our chance of a jam therefore reducing the luck factor). What happened with the patch? People who depended on luck found themselves severely nerfed (Domis,Caracals with ECM and such). However people who were trying to eliminate depending on the luck factor found themseleves severely nerfed too. Why is this? I can still have comparable jamming strength on my ships, right? No... I get slightly below of what i used to have and i can not carry any tank whatsoever. You might say: "this is fair". And it might be.. But i was depending on my tank in an effort to reduce the randomness of my role. It was part of my "anti-luck-dependant" fitting. Why? how? Becouse...Even if i failed to jam anything (which is chance based and DOES happen) i was still primary, always, so failing my role i was still usefull. I would suck up some damage for my gang. Ill put before you antoher war story to support this: Back in the TCF vs MM days... After all the fleet action was done, some of us(MM allied forces) decided to stay and try to control D7-. Most of the guys docked and jumped into small, fast ships. I had none nearby so i stayed in my long rng, tanked, fleet Scorp. We didnt get to fight TCF, but we found out the infamus Burn Eden 3 pilot gang was camping a gate nearby. We decided to engage that. This gang was typical of BE for that time: 2 Dampener Ravens firing at about 100-150km off the gate and a dictor sitting on the gate.We jumped into their dictor and into the firing line of the Ravens. I (flying the long rng fleet scorp, fitted with sensor boosters amongst else) was immidiately dampened and failed to jam anything. However... I was still primary. The ravens started pounding on me. My armor tank held long enough for the reminder of my gang (mostly various t2 frigs) to kill the dictor without taking casualties. I was still usefull to the gang even though my CHANCE based role failed miserably. We won a small victory that day (we didnt kill them all but at least we forced them to stop ganking until they can replace the dictor) thanks to the scorp. And before you say: "You cant jam and have an uber tank". It wasnt that good. I had to jump back before the dictor went down. It was just enough. This is me reducing the randomness factor of my ECM ships. Even if my cycles fail... Ill stil be primary and at least ill buy my gang some time. The ECM nerf took all of this away... It reduced my chances of jamming, increasing the randomness of my primary role. And it took away my ability to tank. And i do tank since im alway primary and this is my secondary role. I, for one, do NOT have a desire to fly a ship whose preformance is, now, completely chance based.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.02 00:38:00 - [99] So... As a passionate ECM pilot... Please take away the luck factor of ECM. Make me capable of perma jamming if i prepare properly. Or make me useless if i didnt... But dont force me to fly a lottery.
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.02 01:20:00 - [100] Edited by: Neuromandis on 02/03/2007 01:19:24 In short, increase chance to jam for "medium-good" jamming strength (right racial vs. common battleship, multifreq vs. cruiser), decrease chance to jam for "bad" jamming comparisons (wrong racial vs. cruiser, multifreq against battleship), keep "medium" comparsisons about the same chance as today (wrong racial vs. frigate, multifreq against battleship), and make jamming time sensor-strength specific instead of standard 20sec timer (it would take a single multifreq jammer to lock down a frig, a racial or two multifreq for a cruiser, 2 racials or 3 multispecs for a battleship's worth of jamming time). These comparisons are of course completely rough approximations as ships have different sensor strengths and jammers different variations, but that is the general idea: To make ECM less chance-based you need to increase probability of jam and decrease duration. And lose the low slot-modules already. There you go, chance factor decreased, preparedness factor increased, balance maintained, no gimped setups. I also liked the idea somebody threw around elsewhere of making jammers something completely different (chance to deactivate random modules for a time), but it sounds so hard to implement and balance that it is just that- an idea...
Elrich Zann Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2007.03.02 02:59:00 - [101] Originally by: Aramendel A whole lot of junk that amounts to nothing more than what you feel is fair. Don't care about your opinions or your "facts" based on numbers. I won't enter into a debate with you, since you have apparently never flown an ECM ship. Your opinion is wrong, but you're too blind to see it. I fly in small gang engagements, Scorps are a no-no, don't fly them anymore - hardly ever see them. Rooks (for strength) and blackbirds (throw away) are the only ships around. You can scream ECM is fine till your blue in the face. The rest of EVE doesn't hear you. Damps are the new kings of the EW block, I'm sure when they get nerfed - you'll scream the loudest.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.02 12:33:00 - [102] Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan As a passionate ECM pilot... Please take away the luck factor of ECM. Now that is something I can utterly, 100% agree with. The random factor of ECM sucks, sucks, sucks. The problem however is that as ECM is currently it's the only thing which can balance it. Compare it to damperners: With a specced ship you can effeciently permajam a ship which is within 10-50k. Below that you will be in danger of getting into it's targetting range, above that damps have also only a chance to work and behave pretty much like ECM. Due to their very long falloff they can still be halfway decent for a good time, but won't reach the ranges ECM is able to. At 50-100k they are basically an high effeciency jammer and at 100-150k a low effeciency jammer. At sniper ranges of 180k they are about as strong as an unbonused multispec. Also, since you need to stack damps for them to be effective a damperner ship cannot really disable more than 2 targets. Basically, compared to ECM damps are considerably stronger at 10-50k, somewhat stronger at 50-100k and about equal at 100-150k. ECM is stronger at 0-10k and 150k+. Right now, with it being chance based. Damps trade a more relyable effect for a range limitation, which ECM does not have. If it would loose it's random factor it would need another limitation to balance this out, like ranges where it simply will not work. Originally by: Elrich Zann Don't care about your opinions or your "facts" based on numbers. I won't enter into a debate with you, since you have apparently never flown an ECM ship. Your opinion is wrong, but you're too blind to see it. I fly in small gang engagements, Scorps are a no-no, don't fly them anymore - hardly ever see them. Rooks (for strength) and blackbirds (throw away) are the only ships around. You can scream ECM is fine till your blue in the face. The rest of EVE doesn't hear you. I see scorps very regulary in gangs of my alliance. Just today I saw a corpmail with one of our members offering to sponsor 2 falcon pilots. And, likewise, you can go into surpression, scream "ECM is underpowered" and try to use incorrect "facts" as long as you want. I'll be there to correct you. Quote: Damps are the new kings of the EW block, I'm sure when they get nerfed - you'll scream the loudest. Oh rly?
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.03.02 15:22:00 - [103] I wonder what a group with a logistic ship and jammer would do? People would have to pick and choose which to go after when they weren't jam cycled and if they went for the jammer with no tank the logistic would heal like hell and if they went for the logistic it'd tank them long enough for the jam cycle to catch up. Throw in a damage dealer or two and this seems like a viable addition to a small gang.
Elrich Zann Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2007.03.02 21:00:00 - [104] Originally by: Aramendel And, likewise, you can go into surpression, scream "ECM is underpowered" and try to use incorrect "facts" as long as you want. I'll be there to correct you. Please learn to read. I never said ECM was underpowered. I said the Scorpion and Falcon were underpowered. Where in my post did I ask for a boost to ECM? I stated that those 2 ships need a boost, and if boosting them, the rook should get a small boost so that it is still king.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.03.02 21:37:00 - [105] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/03/2007 21:34:08 I've seen no real argument against an ECM buff yet. Pretty much everything you've said Arumandel has what I consider to be a more convincing counter-argument. The Scorpion at this time is a poor ship and there are a multitude of better alternatives in a fleet situation including smaller ship types. Same goes for small gang operations. Survivability has not been an issue for the ECM Scorpion for the last 2 years. It dies if the foe is competent, simple as that. What used to set it apart was its ability to turn the tide in a battle while inevitably sacrificing itself. This is what made it the revered ship of old. Now, you fly something else because it isn't that ship anymore. It just isn't effective at its role currently. End.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.02 23:12:00 - [106] Originally by: Elrich Zann Please learn to read. I never said ECM was underpowered. I said the Scorpion and Falcon were underpowered. Where in my post did I ask for a boost to ECM? I stated that those 2 ships need a boost, and if boosting them, the rook should get a small boost so that it is still king. Decide. Either the rook is ok and does not need a boost or it is underpowered and needs a boost. Arguning that a balanced ships has to be made stronger because it is supposed to be the king is a rather poor argument. Originally by: welsh wizard I've seen no real argument against an ECM buff yet. Pretty much everything you've said Arumandel has what I consider to be a more convincing counter-argument. Every fool can say "this is so". Arguments and proofs make a point, not simply stating it.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.02 23:29:00 - [107] Originally by: Aramendel What do you think is the survivability of **every single other** EW ship in mass combat? The non-ECW EW ships do not fare in any way better than the ECM ships. Please point me to another EWAR battleship and then we can compare the Scorps survivability to its. He was talking about Scorps fyi. Even says so in your quote...
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.02 23:38:00 - [108] I still say that the real issue for ECM ships now is that range has been minimized, or at least marginalized. Pre nanofad for small gangs I would take my scorp in at range. This allowed me to use my jammers but moreso my range as a tank. The only thing that could close the distance were ceptors. Any scorp/falcon/rook that engages at close range knows that they will die. Even if you jam you will be primary and subject to mass droneage. Nanofits (mainly rigs) have taken range away from ECM ships, and thereby thier tanks. After the upcoming reduction in speed I would like to come back and look at ECM ships to see if they are still weak (hopefully they will be able to use distance as tank again). Afterwards if they are still too weak I wouldnt mind beefing up the tank of the scorp, but not ecm. Survivability=yes, more jamming power=no Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.02 23:39:00 - [109] Edited by: Aramendel on 02/03/2007 23:37:41 Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan Please point me to another EWAR battleship and then we can compare the Scorps survivability to its. He was talking about Scorps fyi. Even says so in your quote... This is only something which boosts ECM and not nerfs it. Unless you can explain to me how a cruiser can survive longer then a BS if the enemy is focussing fire on it? Originally by: Nyxus I still say that the real issue for ECM ships now is that range has been minimized, or at least marginalized. This is very true - however it is no ECM issue but a general EW issue. TD and damp ships also have to rely on range. Not to use it as tank, but to make their EW work. They are effected by it just as heavily.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.02 23:51:00 - [110] Originally by: Aramendel This is only something which boosts ECM and not nerfs it. Unless you can explain to me how a cruiser can survive longer then a BS if the enemy is focussing fire on it? Ok then.. since i have to spell it out... The Scorp is unique. It doesnt compare to anything. You have to judge it by itself. Persoanlly... i feel its a useless peise of crap atm, barring one single setup: High: 4 cruise launchers 1 350mm rail 1 recon probe launcher Med: 5 warp core disruptors 3 sensor boosters Low: 1 lar 1 dcu 2 1600mm plate This is a great setup for solo ganking industrials at lowsec gates. Scrambles everything and tanks for long enough. also you can squish the pod of loggers thanks to the recon probe launcher. Now theres an electronic warfare battleship! Utter bull****. If you want to compare smaller ships i can only point you to: Ship setups index If you take a look there you will find a whole mess of Curses and Pilgrims with plates, MAR 2s (sometimes even dual), a whole mess of nossage, great drone dmg and plenty of slots for various ewar and Arazus and Lachesis's with 1600mm plates and what not. The only recons which dont get tanked are the caldari and the minmatar ones. Minmatars make great use of their speed tanks combined with uber webbage. Cladari are sitting ducks praying to god something happens once they push their buttons. Thanks for reading.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.03 00:10:00 - [111] The scorp is unique, but that doesnt mean we cant compare it to other ships. Or should we say that the curse is unique and so we cant compare it to other ships? When the armageddon was the gankageddon it was also "unique" That doesnt stop us from comparing them quite well to other ships. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.03 00:16:00 - [112] Originally by: Goumindong The scorp is unique, but that doesnt mean we cant compare it to other ships. Or should we say that the curse is unique and so we cant compare it to other ships? When the armageddon was the gankageddon it was also "unique" That doesnt stop us from comparing them quite well to other ships. There is no ship in its class which has an even remotely similar role. The curse can easily be compared to other recons. They each have their unique abilites but they are also all very similar due to them all being in the same class and sharign some similarities. Such as the ability to mount a covops claock for the force variety and some tankability/damage dealing potential on the combat variety. An armageddon can easily be compared to any other battleship whose primary role is damage dealing. There are NO ewar battleships expect the scorp.
Elrich Zann Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2007.03.03 01:29:00 - [113] Originally by: Aramendel Decide. Either the rook is ok and does not need a boost or it is underpowered and needs a boost. Arguning that a balanced ships has to be made stronger because it is supposed to be the king is a rather poor argument. And that is your problem in a nutshell. I stated that I have no experience with the Rook and that it would need to be tested to see if it is overpowered with a slight boost in ECM strength. Since I don't fly it, I won't comment of whether it needs to be boosted or left alone. I do fly the Scorpion (or did) and it needs a boost to it's bonus. Period. It should jam better than the blackbird, and it can't. Since I have experience w/a 10% per level ECM boost, I can tell you this is fine for jamming cruisers, too strong for frigates, and too weak for battleships. So to spell this out for you (take your time and read this carefully): ECM is fine, the blackbird is fine, the griffin is slightly overpowered, the Falcon and the Scorpion need a slight boost, the Rook MAY need a boost if it is to remain the "ECM king" - however this needs testing to prove.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.03 02:02:00 - [114] Edited by: Aramendel on 03/03/2007 01:59:15 Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan If you take a look there you will find a whole mess of Curses and Pilgrims with plates, MAR 2s (sometimes even dual), a whole mess of nossage, great drone dmg and plenty of slots for various ewar and Arazus and Lachesis's with 1600mm plates and what not. The only recons which dont get tanked are the caldari and the minmatar ones. Minmatars make great use of their speed tanks combined with uber webbage. Cladari are sitting ducks praying to god something happens once they push their buttons. Nothing stops the caldari ships from using an 1600mm plate as well. Many examples I posted deliberatly left one low slot free. And, to repeat myself, how exactly does this enable non-caldari EW ships to have a snowflakes chance in hell when they get primaried? Their "great tank" has problems keeping up with a single dps fitted cruiser, let alone bigger ships. The get primaried their either manage to warp out in time or are a wreck. ALL EW ships have a **ty tank. If anything the high range of caldari ships is still the best tank because it pulls them out of heavy drone range, which are the highest danger to recons. Originally by:** Elrich Zann And that is your problem in a nutshell. I stated that I have no experience with the Rook and that it would need to be tested to see if it is overpowered with a slight boost in ECM strength. Since I don't fly it, I won't comment of whether it needs to be boosted or left alone. Too late. ...if boosting them, the rook should get a small boost so that it is still king. Quote: I do fly the Scorpion (or did) and it needs a boost to it's bonus. Period. It should jam better than the blackbird, and it can't. It can. 2 reasons: - 8 vs 6 medslots -> it can fit 33% more ECM modules than the blackbird. Now you could argue that it needs these 2 slots for sensorboosters to lock as fast as the BB. True. But then it also has a way way higher lock range than it. It would be still in an advantage. - 4 vs 2 low slots -> it can fit 3 ECM mods and a 1600mm plate, giving it's ECM modules an 11% higher strength than the BB with 2 ECM mods. And in addition it has 6 times the hitpoints.
Elrich Zann Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2007.03.03 02:58:00 - [115] Aramendel - do you seriously think that you know enough about a ship that you don't even fly to say that it is "fine". That's what it comes down to. I have stated my premise: An ECM ship should have a 50% chance to jam an equivalent sized ship assuming 1 Racial ECM and 1 Signal Distortion Amp. Best modules, max skills. A T2 ECM ship should have a 50% chance of jamming a Battleship using the same assumptions. I know how to fit a Scorpion, I know how to Calculate ECM, and I am fairly certain I have spent far more time flying a Scorpion than you. I don't believe that a 50/50 chance is unfair. If the pilot wants to avoid being jammed, fit ECCM which will reduce the odds, if the Scorpion pilot wants to increase the odds of jamming, add more Signal dispersion amps (sacrificing his/her tank). Don't put words in my mouth. To reach my premise, the Scorpion and the Falcon need a boost the ECM strength for that ship ONLY. Now the part you seem to misread - IF the Rook is the remain the king of ECM it MAY need a boost, BUT THIS WILL HAVE TO BE TESTED TO ENSURE IT IS NOT OVERPOWERED.
nico wurz250 The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.03 11:06:00 - [116] I am totaly argee with Pistonbroke As an ecm pilot (before the nerv) i am totaly miss-skilled now. My Online Time has been reducted to 50% because my charakter was specialized and is now useless. It exists EECM Modules to counter ECM perfectly, if noone fit thease EECM Modules, ECM should effectfully. -
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.03 12:07:00 - [117] Originally by: Elrich Zann An ECM ship should have a 50% chance to jam an equivalent sized ship assuming 1 Racial ECM and 1 Signal Distortion Amp. Which is a fallacious assumption because it ignores that the scorp has 4 low slots and has unlike the BB no problem to use 3 Signal Distortion Amps. The only reasoning you brought for that is that the scorp should have free slots for damage mods for it's weapons of all things so it can fit a gang setup. Which is ignoring that ECM IS it's weapon (which you yourself admitted). It's a straw man argument.
Elrich Zann Minmatar Hidden Agenda	Posted - 2007.03.03 12:36:00 - [118] Originally by: Aramendel The only reasoning you brought for that is that the scorp should have free slots for damage mods for it's weapons of all things so it can fit a gang setup. Which is ignoring that ECM IS it's weapon (which you yourself admitted). It's a straw man argument. Again proving my point that since you don't fly the ship, you don't know what you are talking about. I don't believe I've ever even heard of a Scorp setup with 3 damage mods. Amazing. The reason I chose 50% was because most rational people consider a 50/50 chance fair. It has nothing to do with carrying 3 damage mods...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.03 14:59:00 - [119] Edited by: Aramendel on 03/03/2007 15:00:25 Originally by: Elrich Zann Again proving my point that since you don't fly the ship, you don't know what you are talking about. I don't believe I've ever even heard of a Scorp setup with 3 damage mods. Amazing. Me neither. It would be rather braindead. You were the person metioning it. Originally by: Elrich Zann To the proposed plan of using more than 1 signal distortion amp. Almost every ship in the game can be setup to gank or tank. Using 3xdamage mods is normally a gank setup, not minimum necessary to perform. If a scorpion pilot decides to forgo tank and go for a pure gank setup, then he/she should have the ability to choose that. This choice does not exist at this time. /edit: Ah, wait, now I get what you are saying. You are referring for the 50% chance as a minimum performance setup. I consider it the gank setup. No other BS can disable averagely 2 targets from sniper ranges, een with a gank setup. Also, Tux himself said the high effeciency of ECM on specced comes with the price of a weak tank. An 3 slot tank is a rather strong tank compared to other sniper fitted BS. Quote: The reason I chose 50% was because most rational people consider a 50/50 chance fair. It has nothing to do with carrying 3 damage mods... The scorp has a 50% chance to jam the average BS with 3 ECM mods... BTW, as a sidenote, just now an enemy scorp totally wrecked our first attempt to break up a gatecamp. He was hovering at 150k away from the gate and jamming multiple of our ships and we could do nothing to take him out. We could kill it after their dictor logged and I could get us a warpin for the scorp with a cov ops, their remaining ships warped out that.
Shaala Caldari Singularity Services	Posted - 2007.03.03 15:37:00 - [120] Aramendel perhaps you would understand one day, but I guess we don¦t have that much time here <.< If you want to compare an ew ship to other ships, give the ecm-ships a heavy tank, effective weaponry(ecm in this case) and make it as cheap as other ships of it¦s class. No point comparing a commandship to an interceptor. If I look at the development of this discussion here, the ship you claim to be not underpowered has the tank of a scorp, the ew strenght of a rook and the benefit/cost-relation of a blackbird. And talking about fleetbattles. I guess you missed the whole concept. Of course you will die almost instantly when getting called primary; anyway here are a few facts that indeed to matter in a fleetfight: -wether you will get called primary in minute #10 or minute #16 -wether you have 3 or 6 seconds time to push the warpout button -will the enemy fleet have 80 or 20 Turretmodules left unactivated after killing you and switch them to the next poor idiot. So the argument of getting insta-pwnd when primaried anyway is not that well-thought-through imho. weaponturrets kill enemy ships ecm disables an enemy for a short duration(until you got to warp out or get destroyed) ecm like turrets are an offensive weapon, even though the effect is of a much shorter duration. making the ecm effectiveness&duration AND the tank inferior to a regular turret BS at a much higher price is questionable.

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