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The recent ECM Nerf, a cut too deep?

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Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:51:00 - [31] Originally by: Skeltek So now ECM specialized ships have lost both: their punch AND their tank. No & no. With 3 damage mods a scorp has 94% of it's old strength. It got a slight nerf - but so got t2 longrange ammo. So for fleet combat it did not get a strength nerf when compared to other ships. It can only mount one 1600mm plate then though, but it got something in exchange too - more range. With 2 EW range rigs (yes, they cost isk, but even with them a scorp is still cheaper than a t2 sniper fitted BS) you can achieve ECM ranges of 230k. If you get primaried there you will get mostly misses by anything but rokhs. It requires a bit more preperation to setup extra spots for your EW ships, but if you do that effort they have a better survivability than before the ECM changes.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:57:00 - [32] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/02/2007 13:03:41 1. I haven't been jammed for about 2 months. 2. You're generally more use to your colleagues if you fly a different ship. Fleets and gangs used to be based around a strong ECM backbone and it made battles more interesting. Jamming was too powerful in a solo combat sense but in fleets and gangs it made proceedings more interesting. Whats more it was counterable. Caldari have 5 ships dedicate to this task alone, they don't do anything else. Not many people want to fly these ships anymore because a) they're generally more use flying something else and b) it's more fun to fly something else. Jamming needs a slight buff or jamming ship bonuses need to be reworked to offer some other use... Theres 4 things I think they could do: 1. Shield size bonus so they have more staying power? "But they'll be uber solo ships!!" no they won't because they still don't do any damage which is even further exemplified post hit point changes. 2. Give them some combat ability, I'm thinking as drone ships. Give jamming ships sizeable drone bays, not gallente size but large enough to hold 5 drones based on their size. Scorpion - 5 heavy drones with maybe 2 spare, cruisers - 5 medium drones, griffin - 3-4 light drones. 3. Get rid of 2 jamming ships and make them something else entirely. I'd love to see a little variation wrt our recons. 4. Just make ECM stronger for jamming ships across the board, make fitting ECM damage mods a bonus rather than a neccesity so the low slots can be used for other tasks if preffered. Originally by: Aramendel It requires a bit more preperation to setup extra spots for your EW ships, but if you do that effort they have a better survivability than before the ECM changes. Interesting but basically useless, fleet combat doesn't work like that. Range is far too variable for this to be effective which is why you're still better off in a Megathron than a Rokh and anything other than a scorp. Caldari have lots of ships that "Have insane skillz!!" on paper but in practice are little use.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.25 13:26:00 - [33] Gatecamping 180km+ from gate is not really considered PvP imho, so I can¦t really believe range to be a very big argument in this matter. Oh, I found an old post from mine in our forum. Me and a few others from our alliance were doing a 10/10 complex in Venal, while we noticed enemy entering local. We had fitted for NPC killing/doing the complex. We were outnumbered 6:8, but decided to stay in the complex anyway. When they jumped in... well, here is our forum entry: "The D2 gang consisted of a Vulture, a Raven, Apocalypse, Armageddon, Typhoon and one Dominix and was attacked by 6 enemy battleships and 2 Rooks. Our force made quick work of ... ; our Raven had to warp out with armordamage, but we had no losses. All enemy pods barely escaped smartbombing." In total 2 of our faction-fitted attackers barely survived(2BS) and escaped. We knew what ships they were coming with and intentionaly ignored the existance of the rooks, winning the fight with quiet ease. Now just please repeat the thing with ECM still being effective often enough and I might start believing it <.< kind regards, Skeltek (Ex-ECM specialist, retrained for giving gangbonuses and tech2 smartbombs(maybe I got sick of getting compliments for being one of the best jamming pilots people used to work with <.<))
Veryez	Posted - 2007.02.25 13:55:00 - [34] Here's another way to look at it, I'm going to bring a battleship into your gang that does dps equivalent to a good cruiser. However I'll have 10 modules dedicated to stopping 2 enemy ships. However if they each fit a certain module there is a 50% chance I will no NOTHING at all to help you. So in fact you are taking a chance that I will guess correctly on my choice of racials, and that the enemy won't use ECCM for me to help your gang (assuming I stay @ 200k and don't die - since I have no tank) or I can get in a Rohk @ 200k and pour 8xRails with 3xDamage mods into the enemy (and field a very good tank too). So FC, what do you want?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 13:58:00 - [35] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/02/2007 14:00:02 And we attacked part of a russian gang farming an 10/10 plex in our territory. We outnumbered them 5 to 3. We suffered no losses, but neither did they because their single rook managed to jam our ships so we couldn't keep a target scrambled all the time. You cannot say it's fine or not from a single engagement. Originally by: Veryez Here's another way to look at it, I'm going to bring a battleship into your gang that does dps equivalent to a good cruiser. However I'll have 10 modules dedicated to stopping 2 enemy ships. However if they each fit a certain module there is a 50% chance I will no NOTHING at all to help you. Thats not in any way different to other EW.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:05:00 - [36] Originally by: Aramendel And we attacked part of a russian gang farming an 10/10 plex in our territory. We outnumbered them 5 to 3. We suffered no losses, but neither did they because their single rook managed to jam our ships so we couldn't keep a target scrambled all the time. You cannot say it's fine or not from a single engagement. Primary is always EW, it has not much of a tank. Or for example use drones, they cannot be jammed at all any more and should send any EW Cruiser running sooner or later, even if you don¦t get to insta-pwn him if you get a lock. Sorry for slightly exagerating
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:19:00 - [37] Drone max range is 60k. Even with multies ECM has higher ranges. If they are stupid and go in a point blank combat (or get jumped) they will of cource have a disadvantage - but so has a sniper moa who goes vs a blasterthorax. And, again, you always have to see it in relation to the other EW and the general usability range of other ships. Even if ECM has reduced usefulness in fleet combat, damps and TDs had and still have zero use there. TDs don't work past 100k and damps have an optimal of 45k - although can be used between 50-150k as ECM alternative due to their high falloff. But past 150k - where the majority of all fleetbattles happen - three damps have about the same strength as 1 single multi. A sniperBS is good for large fleets, but rather useless in small gangs. ECM does not suffer a effeciency loss there.
Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:20:00 - [38] Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 25/02/2007 14:18:17 Some weeks after release of Rev. I we had a 10(?)-pages thread about this topic, without any dev-response. Yes, ECM was nerfed badly it even killed the Scorps/BB/... I was a dedicated Scorp/BB/Rook-pilot, but I adapted and stoped flying this ships instead of maxing all the skills to be barely as good as before (with decent skills). When flying around in gangs I only barely see BBs anymore. My advice: Fly damage dealer, no point in "maybe I can help my gang for some seconds but I will be primary for sure and can't fit any hp-buffer anymore" -- Boost ECM on dedicated ships. Please.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:29:00 - [39] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/02/2007 14:26:36 Originally by: Aramendel Drone max range is 60k. Even with multies ECM has higher ranges. If they are stupid and go in a point blank combat (or get jumped) they will of cource have a disadvantage - but so has a sniper moa who goes vs a blasterthorax. And, again, you always have to see it in relation to the other EW and the general usability range of other ships. Even if ECM has reduced usefulness in fleet combat, damps and TDs had and still have zero use there. TDs don't work past 100k and damps have an optimal of 45k - although can be used between 50-150k as ECM alternative due to their high falloff. But past 150k - where the majority of all fleetbattles happen - three damps have about the same strength as 1 single multi. A sniperBS is good for large fleets, but rather useless in small gangs. ECM does not suffer a effeciency loss there. Yes but having 5 ships dedicated to Caldari racial Ewar is a bit different than having 2-3 ships that are barely dedicated and are fantastic ships anyway. Don't bring the other races into this because they don't suffer.
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:35:00 - [40] The ECM nerf didn't affect the real world application of ECM at all. My mates fly rooks/falcons/bbs just like they always did: in a support role at range jamming for a gang. They jam the targets with at least 80% effectiveness, and this is vs. high sensor strength ships (BS and hacs, command ships etc.). ECM just doesn't work like it used to in all the bullsh#t setups like ECM Ravens and Domis etc. I fail to see any problem. Everyone is having a stupid contest, and you're in first place!
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Bellum Eternus The ECM nerf didn't affect the real world application of ECM at all. My mates fly rooks/falcons/bbs just like they always did: in a support role at range jamming for a gang. They jam the targets with at least 80% effectiveness, and this is vs. high sensor strength ships (BS and hacs, command ships etc.). ECM just doesn't work like it used to in all the bullsh#t setups like ECM Ravens and Domis etc. I fail to see any problem. I just don't believe you, sorry. I haven't been jammed for about 2 months, to me that suggests noone is flying ECM ships because they're a)boring b)ineffective. Now this wouldn't be such a big deal if it was maybe 1 or 2 ships suffering but five? Five ships with no other useful attributes and you honestly fail to see a problem?
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:51:00 - [42] Edited by: LUKEC on 25/02/2007 14:49:37 ECM is fine. I almost never miss jam cycle on battleships, anything smaller usually gets permajammed. However, you can't really have sick amounts of armor and jam like god. Now you actually have to chose between jamming strength, shield tank, armor tank. As for boring role, if you know who to jam, you can turn insane odds to your favour(I think OP was in EC-P8R when we had some EW) ps. I never bother to use scorp or falcon and have all relevant skills at 5. -------- .....
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:55:00 - [43] Originally by: welsh wizard Yes but having 5 ships dedicated to Caldari racial Ewar is a bit different than having 2-3 ships that are barely dedicated and are fantastic ships anyway. Don't bring the other races into this because they don't suffer. Firstly, other races have 4 dedicated EW ships (frig, t1 cruiser, recons). The only difference for caldari is that they have an EW BS in addition to that. And no, they do suffer. Not now, but if ECM is made (again) way stronger than all other EW certainly. The was a reason all non-caldari EW ships used unbonussed ECM pre-kali. ECM is plain out stronger than other EW. Now at least an ECM specced ship has too choose between higher EW effeciency or similar "tank" than the other recons.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.25 15:03:00 - [44] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/02/2007 15:01:55 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Yes but having 5 ships dedicated to Caldari racial Ewar is a bit different than having 2-3 ships that are barely dedicated and are fantastic ships anyway. Don't bring the other races into this because they don't suffer. Firstly, other races have 4 dedicated EW ships (frig, t1 cruiser, recons). The only difference for caldari is that they have an EW BS in addition to that. And no, they do suffer. Not now, but if ECM is made (again) way stronger than all other EW certainly. The was a reason all non-caldari EW ships used unbonussed ECM pre-kali. ECM is plain out stronger than other EW. Now at least an ECM specced ship has too choose between higher EW effeciency or similar "tank" than the other recons. Only difference? Other than the fact that our Ewar ships are entirely dedicated to ECM alone? Bonuses, survivability and offensive capability, we don't get any of that. And don't try and twist words, its not like you get 1 less battleship. I'd take the geddon, domi or phoon over a scorpion any day. You're saying ECM is more powerful than the other forms of Ewar? While damps are arguably stronger now I generally agree. Problem is Caldari Ewar is only more powerful on paper. In any realistic everyday Eve sceanrio its underpowered and less use than extra damage. Luke, seriously dude, dont be silly. Players don't fly them, players don't get jammed, players fly something else because its more use and more fun. It's as simple as that.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 15:16:00 - [45] Damperners are slightly more effecient up to 45k (vs battleships, mind you, a lach cannot do much against a 4 frig wolfpack while a rook has good chances to jam all and escape), has about equal effeciency at 45-150k and is utterly useless at ranges above. That is the whole point: yes, other EW can achieve ECM strength or even slightly surpass it, but only in very specific scenarios. If ECM wouldn't be able to work just fine at sniper distances (or alternatively wouldn't work at 40k or below) and wouldn't get more effecient vs smaller ships (other EW gets less effecient) I would agree with you. But as long as ECM has the "works everywhere" attribute ECM is >> other EW if looked from the whole picture. And, as a sidenote, I have been jammed last time 2 days ago and I see regulary falcons, rooks and scorps in the gangs of our alliance.
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.25 17:57:00 - [46] Edited by: Trillian Mcmillan on 25/02/2007 17:55:24 I, too, dont remeber being jammed since the patch, certainly not in the last few months. I, too, no longer fly ECM ships. Now, seeing as almost everybody agrees this nerf was done properly, i cant wait for the nano and the nos "balance". Hopefully it will be handeled in a similar manner in regards to what will be left of these modules/setups. :) Have fun...
Trillian Mcmillan Cry Me A River Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.25 18:20:00 - [47] Originally by: Aramendel If ECM wouldn't be able to work just fine at sniper distances (or alternatively wouldn't work at 40k or below) and wouldn't get more effecient vs smaller ships (other EW gets less effecient) I would agree with you. A bit of a derail but i have to disagree here. Dampeners do not always become less effective againts smaller targets. I can see what you are trying to say, ie small ships arent hit badly by the increased lock time and fight at short rng usually anyway. However... A blasterthron will not be seriously hamperd by dampening while a lot of interceptors will. With a base lock rng of about 20-25km an interceptor which is hit by a couple of dampeners will suddenly find itself forced to enter web (and even small nos) range. This often means one very dead interceptor :) And yes i know some ceptors fight at these ranges anyway, but i do belive most try to avoid it when tackling big ships.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:08:00 - [48] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/02/2007 19:07:40 Assuming the ship in question has a web, which is not always the case. It is no standard equipment for all ships. Also, one ECM is perfectly able to permajam a frigate. To get a sensorboosted crow (rather common) or an assault frig without SB within web range you need 2 SDs on a ship with SD boni. And then a web... And don't let me start on tracking disruptors... The core functionality of TDs and SDs is to exploit the lower speed of your target, by reducing it's operational range significantly and outdistancing it. If you cannot do this you have a problem unless you have backup. That are problems ECM simply does not face because it has no such loopholes. My point that ECM gets a good deal more effective vs smaller ships stands.
Veryez	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:29:00 - [49] The fact that there is only one way to fly a ship (jump in last at extreme range) does not mean the ship is fine. We've had this argument before and I'm well aware that you will never listen to any argument that ECM ships have been nerfed into uselessness. So don't waste your time posting here. You think ECM ships are fine. I think amarr ships are fine, but since I don't fly them what does my opinion matter? Only if you fly the ship on a day in/day out basis can you truely be qualified to comment on it. I tried to present an arguement based on flying the ship. No FC I've flown with has wanted to bring a battleship into combat that has a 50/50 chance of doing nothing. But it can perma-jam frigates - so what! Most battleships can kill frigates with secondary weapons. The comparison is not valid. In a 5 on 5 battle, bringing a scorpion is a big risk. It cannot add any damage to the fight at the range it needs to be to survive. So you are starting out down in firepower and tanking. It has the possibility of taking 2 other battleships out of the fight, which would now raise the odds into your favor. However, if the other ships carry one ECCM module, it will fail the jam far more often than it exceeds. If it does not have the correct racials, it's chance of jammimg is well below 50%. Not to mention that since it is fighting deep in falloff, the effective ECM strength is ever lower. Add these odds up and there is a big risk in bringing in the Scorp. On the other hand, the same pilot can fly a rohk with equal effectiveness, who adds firepower and tanking. Most FC's I fly with don't like risks. As I said, you believe they are fine - most others, including those who fly them, don't agree. Oh and Lukec, I don't use the Rook, but at 20% boost per level, so that at level 5, ecm is back to it's former strength. I would tend to agree with you. The fact you don't use Scorps or Falcons actually supports the contention that these ships are underpowered.... What should be done? Leave ECM modules as they are. Make the signal amp a high slot module and boost it's effectiveness to 50% - allow only one to work (like damage controls). Lastly make it's CPU intensive so that only ECM specific ships can fit it (they get a boost to fitting requirements). They would still be weaker than before Kali, but only slightly (for example multispec would be strength 4.5 vs 5). Now if ECM ships want to boost ECM strength higher they can use rigs. Lastly boost T2 ECM modules so they are in ANY way better that their T1 counterparts (Higher fitting, higher cap usage, same range, same strength - but at least they cost less).
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:08:00 - [50] Originally by: Veryez Only if you fly the ship on a day in/day out basis can you truely be qualified to comment on it. There are quite a few people in this thread who fly them and who say they are fine. Quote: But it can perma-jam frigates - so what! Most battleships can kill frigates with secondary weapons. The comparison is not valid. BSs are not the only ships in the game. And it's no comparsion, it's a strength ECM has compared to other EW. If it would be the same for ECM as for SDs and TDs cruisers would have 30 sensor strength and frigate 40 sensorstrength. Quote: In a 5 on 5 battle, bringing a scorpion is a big risk. It cannot add any damage to the fight at the range it needs to be to survive. So you are starting out down in firepower and tanking. It has the possibility of taking 2 other battleships out of the fight, which would now raise the odds into your favor. However, if the other ships carry one ECCM module, it will fail the jam far more often than it exceeds. If it does not have the correct racials, it's chance of jammimg is well below 50%. And bringing ANY other non-ECM EW ship would be any different? EW is always risky. It's the tradeoff for it being able to completely wreck an opposite force when it works. Quote: Not to mention that since it is fighting deep in falloff, the effective ECM strength is ever lower. Why on earth would it do that? If you think I said that you should better reread my posts. Quote: Oh and Lukec, I don't use the Rook, but at 20% boost per level, so that at level 5, ecm is back to it's former strength. I would tend to agree with you. The fact you don't use Scorps or Falcons actually supports the contention that these ships are underpowered.... Exept it isn't, basic math. Old ECM strength: 100% * 1.5 (50% bonus) -> 150% New ECM strength: 50% * 2.0 (100% bonus) -> 100% Add a 1600mm plate and a 20% ECm strength rig on it and it has 80% of it's former strength, lower than the scorp and falcon have if they use a plate. With 2 ECM mods (no plate buffer) it's on 94% of it's former strength, about the same as the scrop gets with 3 mods and 1 plate.
Veryez	Posted - 2007.02.26 03:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Aramendel And bringing ANY other non-ECM EW ship would be any different? EW is always risky. It's the tradeoff for it being able to completely wreck an opposite force when it works. Arbitrators and Celestis can tank, deal damage at the range their EW is effective, and still assist w/EW. The Blackbird can't. It's ECM or nothing. So it might help your group, it might not. Many FC's I work with aren't willing to take that risk. I won't discuss the bellicose - it's a disgrace of a ship. As far as basic math goes, I was refering to the difference between a 10% boost per level and a 20% boost per level. While it doesn't bring the ship up to it's former level, it does bring the module back up (hence the reason I said ECM, not the ship). Basic reading. Maybe you're FC's are still asking pilots to bring ECM ships along. The one's I fly with are saying to fit ECCM and ignore the ECM ships completely. Argue all you wish, the facts speak for themselves.
DuPuy	Posted - 2007.02.26 05:09:00 - [52] I have maximum-to near-maximum ecm skills I fly blackbirds I fly falcons I used to fly rooks I don't fly scorpions. I still fly ecm as I refuse to accept that the time spent training that skill tree was a waste... I'm now training up another race's force recons as a result of my experience since Revelations. Russian Roulette is not a game I'm willing to pay for. Fit an $80mil cloak to a $60 mil Falcon... and your named racials and full-lowslot-range of boosters will still fail to jam one in three cycles on a battlecruiser. It is a "chance based" mod now afterall. As almost all non-ecm ships are nanos... the 200km "buffer" you started the engagement with is meaningless. (ecm can't fit nanos as they must have the boosters to even bother undocking... just as they cant fit armor or anything else in lows... and you can shield tank if you don't carry a full set of ecm... and without ecm, why fly that ship anyway?) The blackbird is at least cheaper and expendible. And it is useful... in that rare situation where a battle-plan goes exactly to plan. So... you're of use maybe once every four times you undock... until the dice determine you miss a jam and go pop or have to warp out. yes: fly them smart and have "lady luck" on your side, you can do reasonably well. But if you can fly so well as to make these ships work... you'd be a true killer in any other ship that doesn't have to sacrifice tank and flexibility to be moderately useful at its core EW job. And you'd probably also do better in any ship that has the dps to at least threaten frigates...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.26 05:23:00 - [53] So ECM desont hold up well to nano battleships. And you see the problem is with ECM not being strong enough how? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
DuPuy	Posted - 2007.02.26 05:42:00 - [54] Edited by: DuPuy on 26/02/2007 05:40:26 read it all. not just the bit you're interested in. as for that one little piece... people keep saying the weakness of ecm boats should be overcome by their range... but range isn't the "iwin" button they say it is.
Veryez	Posted - 2007.02.26 05:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Goumindong So ECM desont hold up well to nano battleships. And you see the problem is with ECM not being strong enough how? The problem is NOT ECM! The problem is ECM specific ships having to sacrifice everything, be flown only 1 way, to have to guess on what the enemy is going to fly, and hoping that the enemy doesn't bother to use ECCM. To have any chance to have an impact on a battle. Now if all the cards line up, I can jam 1 to 3 ships and have an impact on the fight. On the other hand I can use my same skills jump into a rohk and add some serious firepower to any fight, and ignore enemy ECM by fitting one ECCM module. Some people feel this situation is fine and doesn't need to be changed, usually those who don't fly the ships.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.26 06:00:00 - [56] Originally by: DuPuy Edited by: DuPuy on 26/02/2007 05:40:26 read it all. not just the bit you're interested in. as for that one little piece... people keep saying the weakness of ecm boats should be overcome by their range... but range isn't the "iwin" button they say it is. I did, its tripe. ECM is no longer overpowered. Deal with it, its still very strong and stronger than all the other EWs ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Avalloc GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.26 06:03:00 - [57] Another thing I've noticed effected by the ECM nerf is the leadership gang mod for EW strength. Prior to nerf my Rook had a jam strength of 17 with racials while being buffed by a max Information Warfare pilot (using mindlink too.) Now? Only 13.8 and he unbuffed strength is 12.1 which is pretty sad. And 1.7 point boost? Come on!
DuPuy	Posted - 2007.02.26 06:59:00 - [58] Edited by: DuPuy on 26/02/2007 06:58:40 Edited by: DuPuy on 26/02/2007 06:56:11 Quote: I did, its tripe. ECM is no longer overpowered. Deal with it, its still very strong and stronger than all the other EWs I guess we'll soon be seeing what you have to say when they nerf nos... and force all those (many) pilgrim and curse pilots to fill their lows with mods to make their EW useful as well as make their effectiveness "chance" based...
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2007.02.26 07:32:00 - [59] EW got nerfed but is still very useful in the right hands - the ships are nber fragile however if the pilot want a good shot at jamming a few people.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.26 08:42:00 - [60] Originally by: Veryez Oh and Lukec, I don't use the Rook, but at 20% boost per level, so that at level 5, ecm is back to it's former strength. I would tend to agree with you. The fact you don't use Scorps or Falcons actually supports the contention that these ships are underpowered.... You have distortion amps & rigs to make them better. I can't have 4x 1600mm plates on any fleet setup with guns and perform good. It would be funny if you would need 2x cpuII to fit all ecm on scorp like amarr for guns -------- .....

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