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The recent ECM Nerf, a cut too deep?

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Pistonbroke D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:16:00 - [1] Hi, As a previous ECM User, I'm obviously biased on this subject; my opinion is that the recent reduction in the strength of Jamming modules has gone too far and rendered them almost useless. The market for ECM modules has crashed, and it's now rare to see scorpions, rooks or even Blackbirds being used for their intended purpose. I appreciate that the nerf was at least partially to remove the tendancy for many ships to throw on a "get out of jail free" multispec, and while this seems to have worked just fine, it's also to a large extent removed jamming from the battlefield. The addition of the low slot and rig slot items can bring the EW-centric ships up to somewhere approaching their previous level of usefulness, however, it does mean giving up even the token armor tank that was previously available to the caldari jamming ship pilot, and the jamming rigs are frankly too expensive to be used given the minimal improvement they provide and the tendancy for jamming ships (once identified) to be called as primary. So, have CCP gone too far and consigned a class of ships and a large chunk of skill points to the dustbin? Should the nerf have fallen halfway between where it is now and where it was before the revelations patch was implemented? I'd welcome some debate about this as I miss using my rook, but when I can, with all-but maxed out EW skills, and the best mods fitted repeatedly fail to jam even a single battleship target for several cycles, I'd have to say that in attempting to balance these mods, the scales have swung too far the wrong way.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:21:00 - [2] Edited by: madaluap on 24/02/2007 22:18:43 Ok, the entire point of a nerf is simply beause it is ruin gamemechanics. In this case it means you have put some skills (omgskills) into ECM. A corpmate of mine can fly with a rook with high-sp and basically its just the same as before, only now he is trully a elite-jammer. Just like it should be, that my opinion offcourse, but i think jamming shouldnt be the noob-omg-i-win button. jamming is now into the hands of the true focused pvp pilots instead of the random retard in a jamming bb or scorp _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Pistonbroke D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:34:00 - [3] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 24/02/2007 22:18:43 Ok, the entire point of a nerf is simply beause it is ruin gamemechanics. In this case it means you have put some skills (omgskills) into ECM. A corpmate of mine can fly with a rook with high-sp and basically its just the same as before, only now he is trully a elite-jammer. Just like it should be, that my opinion offcourse, but i think jamming shouldnt be the noob-omg-i-win button. jamming is now into the hands of the true focused pvp pilots instead of the random retard in a jamming bb or scorp If you've finished editing to add more "omg you nub" type comments, I'd point out the following 1) I appreciate that nerf are because ccp consider that balance of gamemechanics has been affected, several times in my post I asked if the nerf had gone too far - I never once said it should not have taken place. 2) Your uber corp mate is not 'basically the same as before' there is a significant reduction in jamming strength post patch, even with the lows crammed with hypnos or T2 signal distortions I do agree with you that prior to the patch it was too easy for someone with minimal skills to throw on some Jamming mods and have a significant effect on the outcome of a battle, but my opinion is that the patch addressed this by hitting the whole ECM thing too hard. I used to fit ECCM to my battleships if I didn't want to be jammed and they worked just fine.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:38:00 - [4] serieusly if got ***** jammed by mother***** absolutions and mallers. using T2 signal distortions for the total cause: completely disruption a enemy from fighting. Whats wrong with that? Btw im a bit drunk spelling can be wrong, but still my words stand. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Pistonbroke D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:43:00 - [5] I don't mind losing ships for the cause Mad, It's just that the effect is now so watered down that frankly, its probable that a caldari ECM ship could have a greater effect by fitting a full rack of sensor dampers.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Pistonbroke 2) Your uber corp mate is not 'basically the same as before' there is a significant reduction in jamming strength post patch, even with the lows crammed with hypnos or T2 signal distortions I do agree with you that prior to the patch it was too easy for someone with minimal skills to throw on some Jamming mods and have a significant effect on the outcome of a battle, but my opinion is that the patch addressed this by hitting the whole ECM thing too hard. I used to fit ECCM to my battleships if I didn't want to be jammed and they worked just fine. Ok instead of of editing my post ill repost it again. Maybe it has become to hard to jam someone (which i dont believe IMO<--important) and Yes my corpmate effectiveness has decreased, but he remains a guy i would love in my gangs. A bit of skills and a good supporting BS/BB give enough to make enemy bs go crying. Plz give an example from what you have expirienced instead of just rambling about what theoritically is crap. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium Kurai Komichi	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:51:00 - [7] I don't believe it has become too hard to jam people. Of course you can not jam as often as before but given the right ship, skills, and mods you will jam people effectively. All you need is 1 cycle of jamming someone to tip the scales in a battle. Using ECM on ships that do not recieve a bonus to ECM is not anywhere near as viable as it used to be. That multispec on my tempest isn't there anymore... I've never seen that many scorps/blackbirds on the field by the way. I see no difference from my end of the spectrum on the availability or activity of such ships. They still make people not want to engage you =P --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Pistonbroke D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:57:00 - [8] I can't log on atm, so ask your mate, he should be able to put you straight. 1) Max ranges before and after 2) Max strength before and after I think you'll find it's far from the same.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.24 23:01:00 - [9] Edited by: madaluap on 24/02/2007 22:59:18 Originally by: Pistonbroke I can't log on atm, so ask your mate, he should be able to put you straight. 1) Max ranges before and after 2) Max strength before and after I think you'll find it's far from the same. Well i had a talk about it on TS and he said that yes he did suffer, his jamming strength is lower even with a totally dedicated setup. But he also he said ECM isnt suddenly for guy that just train it random. His skills totally shine. Look im just a guy addicted to gallente since my gankageddon (7 lasers,3sensorboost,8 heatsink) got totally busted by a navy issue megathron by DNA and i can tell you ECM isnt dead on people that sacrifice survivability and DPS for totally disrupting the enemy. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
MasterDecoy Gallente Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.24 23:03:00 - [10] nah, i would say that the nerf put ecm where it should be: a specialized discipline. one of my corp mates is heavily focused in ecm, if you ever see him, you're jammed. the only times he's having difficulty is against T2 ships, E.G. recon ships. or when the opponents fit eccm - and props to them! if i, with only casual ecm skills, jump into a bb or a scorp, im worthless - and that's the way it should be imo until i spend a few extra weeks to max my ecm skills out. and as far as "[...] repeatedly fail to jam even a single battleship target for several cycles" goes; well, you can't possibly expect to perma-jam every opponent now do you? the reason they nerfed it (or homerun nerfed it, whatever) was because they don't like ecm as an i-win button, after all, there's already plenty of them out there

Pistonbroke D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.24 23:05:00 - [11] Thanks for your input Mad, I will have to revisit my jamming ships. Perhaps now they are rarer out there they'll be less likely to be called as instant primary There is of course the advantage that they are now cheaper to buy, to fit and of course to lose.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.24 23:12:00 - [12] Originally by: Pistonbroke Thanks for your input Mad, I will have to revisit my jamming ships. Perhaps now they are rarer out there they'll be less likely to be called as instant primary There is of course the advantage that they are now cheaper to buy, to fit and of course to lose. lol and that all while i was a bit drunk, btw listen to this vid for like 9*times and you get it ubersong _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Pistonbroke D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.24 23:17:00 - [13] Originally by: madaluap lol and that all while i was a bit drunk, btw listen to this vid for like 9times and you get it ubersong Now thats* Jammin'
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.25 00:13:00 - [14] It would be nice if the "Signal Dispersion" skill had more of a kick with the ECM mods.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 00:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Pistonbroke I can't log on atm, so ask your mate, he should be able to put you straight. 1) Max ranges before and after 2) Max strength before and after I think you'll find it's far from the same. Max ranges actually INCREASED. With 2 t1 range rigs you can get 230k optimals on racial ECM on the BB, rook, falcon and scorp. Max strength decreased, but if you are using t2 ecm "damage mods" the actual reduction is fairly low. A scorp with 3 of them has 94% of it's old jamming power.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated	Posted - 2007.02.25 01:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Pistonbroke have CCP gone too far Njah, I actually consider that the general ECM nerf was actually boost for specialized pilots. I mostly fly small gang support Falcon; it has almost the same level of ECM capacity (even without rigs), and just a bit worse tank (seldom an issue). Yet now that one doesn't need to expect ECM from every ship in Eve, people are far less likely to fit ECCM mods -> jamming is easier fot specialized ships. -Lasse
BlackMoon Thrawn the Organ Grinder and Company Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.25 01:36:00 - [17] Trade ya for target painting?
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.25 02:10:00 - [18] The main problem now for dedicated ECM boats is the current Nanofad. Pre-Rev a dedicated jammer could warp into a fight at 100km to 120km and jam with relative impunity if they were careful. The only thing they had to worry about moving fast at them were interceptors, which they could handle. Now everyone and thier grandmother flies at what was interceptor only speeds, with TREMENDOUSLY increased firepower and nospower, while also sporting 5 large drones that can't reliably be stopped by jammers. Dedicated ECM ships can't cope with that amount of firepower that can close the distance to them that quickly as they essentially have no tank. As of now, the Falcon can "blink" at range but all other ecm ships are insta primary with only 15 or 20 seconds before a nanoship is trying to hump thier tailpipe while spitting large drones. After the speed nerf, jamming as a speciality should be more viable than it currently is as range will provide the needed buffer. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.25 03:15:00 - [19] Edited by: Neuromandis on 25/02/2007 03:12:21 The only thing I disagree about the ECM nerf are the low slot modules. The token armor tank had no reason to be removed, all other EW ships out there more than TOKEN tank, I don't see the reason for the discrimination. Yes ECM are strong, but not THAT stronger than, for example, dampeners. Couple that with their being chance-based, and I cannot say I really believe that creating the need for the low-slot modules were necessary. In fact I think it's just the point that the nerf cut deeper than was needed.
Kaathar Rielspar Minmatar	Posted - 2007.02.25 03:38:00 - [20] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn Trade ya for target painting? QFEWRE (quoted for even worse racial ewar) ____________________ Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Originally by: Eximius Josari If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs? Overpriced Nos victims.

Rosehunter	Posted - 2007.02.25 03:58:00 - [21] I love my rook (EW specc'ed), even post nerf. For the most part I fly small roving support. x4 multi's and 2 racial's (caldari and gal) In the hands of a skilled pilot they are still nasty buggers to run up against. I would never fly it in fleet or larger gangs as you WILL be called primary but for small gangs and pick and choose fights they are still great ships. -Rosehunter
Sonorra Baki Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.25 04:13:00 - [22] kept 3-4 BS almost permajammed on sisi today in my alt. Just bought a falcon. Training more ew skills. This may not be work safe -Capsicum
Derrys Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.25 07:04:00 - [23] My problem with the ECM nerf is that the devs didn't undo the stuff they'd already nerfed to make ECM less overpowered. For example, ECM ships have always had extremely low damage potential compared to other racial EW ships. Compare the DPS from a Blackbird to a Celestis or Arbitrator. That even extends to the recon ships -- a Pilgrim can do, what, twice as much damage as a Falcon? Now they've nerfed ECM so that it's more in line with the other EW types. Okay, that's fine. But give ships that specialize in ECM some punch to make up for it. It's bad enough that they already have to sacrifice their tank if they want to fit distortion amplifiers.
Veryez	Posted - 2007.02.25 07:52:00 - [24] Sadly you'll never get non-EW pilots to agree with you. They find it easy to kill ew ships and they like that. Near max EW skills here and I won't leave the station in a Scorp fitted w/EW anymore. The problem isn't the strength of the ECM module (I feel this is about right), it's that signal amps are too weak. A griff and a blackbird can never reach pre-kali jammimg levels since you need 4 sig amps to bring you back up (actually 4 will bring you slightly greater, but close enough to matter). Only the Scorp can fit 4 sig amps, but it must forgo everything else - so why bother. As far as rooks and falcons - once again why bother. A damage dealer is better in almost all cases. Obviously tactical battles aren't for eve. For the players that say "Oh my corp mate is a great ECM pilot and I want him along as much as possible," really? So if he left the Scorp in the station and jumped into a blasterthon you would kick him out of the group? If he abandoned the rook, and brought an astarte you'd object? I didn't think so. ECM is only good in situations where you have such an advantage over the enemy that loss of DPS doesn't hurt you. ECM has no counter? Ha put ECCM on your ship and watch how rarely a Scorp w/racials can jam you. Put 2 ECCM on and you are almost completely immune. Yup EW is just fine - as long as you don't try to use it.
Tecron Caldari Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.25 08:20:00 - [25] 3 t2 Sig Distortion Amps. With racials gives me just about the same strength as pre nerf. Scorp is my favorite fleet ship tbh under 100m to t2 and insure and only lost one in a fleet battle ever.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.02.25 10:49:00 - [26] Jamming has maintained its usefulness in large battles but i fear lost much of it in small gangs. My falcon used to be my favourite ship, but now I rarely fly it. I agree with the guys saying give ecm ships a bit more punch. The rook is about right, the scorp and falcon are way off. We now have ZERO defence outside our jamming if we want to be effective. Now everyone will say "but if they can't lock you they can't kill you". True, but lady luck gives jammers the finger and makes us fail at the worst times, before on my falcon I had about 5k armor to buffer against this, I could survive a round of failed jamming maybe. Now I can't at all.
Trev Kachanov STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.25 11:13:00 - [27] Edited by: Trev Kachanov on 25/02/2007 11:10:24 I agree the ECM nerf was a bit harsh, a 25% reduction in module effectiveness would of been a better reduction. The main problem lies upon the randomness, there should be somewhat of a bell curve to the equation to stop people from using 1 multispec of doom I find your lack of faith disturbing
FraXy 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.25 11:39:00 - [28] Well, if u think ECM modules is b0rked then have a look at ECM-drones. They are not in line with anything. Wasp EC-900 is like a slightly less effective T2 Multispec before skills, but then again some ships can field 5 of them.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:33:00 - [29] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/02/2007 12:34:37 Originally by: Neuromandis The only thing I disagree about the ECM nerf are the low slot modules. The token armor tank had no reason to be removed, all other EW ships out there more than TOKEN tank, I don't see the reason for the discrimination. Yes ECM are strong, but not THAT stronger than, for example, dampeners. Couple that with their being chance-based, and I cannot say I really believe that creating the need for the low-slot modules were necessary. In fact I think it's just the point that the nerf cut deeper than was needed. Range, range, range. With a curse, lachesis or huggin you have to be within 30-40k distance to be effective. With a pilgrim, which has the best tank of the EW ships, you have to be within 12k. A rook and falcon can use it's EW at FULL effeciency at 200k. The other EW ships can mount a better tank because they are in the line of fire far more often than the ECM ships which are used correctly (meaning no warp-to-zero with the rest of the gang). Originally by: Kehmor We now have ZERO defence outside our jamming if we want to be effective. Now everyone will say "but if they can't lock you they can't kill you". True, but lady luck gives jammers the finger and makes us fail at the worst times, before on my falcon I had about 5k armor to buffer against this, I could survive a round of failed jamming maybe. Now I can't at all. Again, range. If you are way outside scramble range nothing stops you from warping out if you are attacked. And neither does anything force you to use 3 ECM mods, due to stacking penalities of them it's not even a very good idea. A falcon with 2 ECM mods has 84% of it's old strength compared to 94% with 3.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:35:00 - [30] Edited by: Skeltek on 25/02/2007 12:34:33 long time since I saw ECMs in Fleetfights... Well, the base strenght was lowered by 50%. The increase of jamming strenght on ECM specialized ships can only be compensated by a fraction, by using ECM-modifiers in lowslots instead of tank. So now ECM specialized ships have lost both: their punch AND their tank. Regarding fleetbattles: Replacing a damagedealing BS with a Scorpion will enable you to keep 1-2 enemy ships partially neutralized for a small amount of time. First: you reduce your firepower a lot by using Scorps. Second: for every Scorp the enemy kills, he regains 1-2 of his BS fightingcapabilities, while you just loose non-tanked BS that didn¦t provide firepower in the first place anyway. Looking at it from a analytical/mathematical point of view, an ECM-BS has to be able to AT LEAST disable 2 enemy BS to compensate the fact, that the enemy draws twice the benefits of killing your ships: reducing your amount of ships and regaining firepower quickly at the same time. The usability of ECM ships was well balanced before the ECM-nerf, and even then I saw MANY fleets without using ECM at all. -Just looking at that fact, makes it most apparent that reducing ECM strenght on ECM ships in any way is not that wise an idea. -reducing ECM strenght on dedicated ECM ships and killing their tank off completely at the same time is an action, that might be at best considered to be the result of most doubtful reasons. But soon there will be possibilities to make ships completely invulnerable anyway I heard, so why reevaluate ECM balancing if there will be a far more dubious aspect of the game anyway? just my 2 cents from my experience...



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