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Sorela
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:02:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Exekias
If a group believes otherwise, and chooses not to hire us because they perceive us to have some underlying loyalties, well, frankly, that's their problem.
Actually it's your problem. Nobody else would hire you, thus BoB didn't have to pay you as much as they would of otherwise.
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Razor Jaxx
Fate.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:30:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Razor Jaxx on 28/02/2007 16:33:11
Originally by: Kespii
You should all stop making the broad assumption that just because MC lives in BoB space, they have to do their bidding for a number of weeks. You all state the assumption that BoB wouldnt let a neutral pvp entity live in its space, but that is just an assumption. Let me guess, you guys also believe in the assumption of intellegent design too? Some people believe in it regardless of evidence and proof. If you do, then it's no wonder you believe in this tin foil crap.
Highly ironic. 
You're the one making assumptions, here. Where are your facts that prove MC's neutrality towards BoB, or that prove that BoB would indeed allow a fully neutral entity to live in its space?
There are facts that point in the other direction, however :
- MC has had no contract against BoB or any of its residents, and has failed to generate any mercenary business interest on these targets. Quite surprising when you consider BoB's long list of enemies, don't you think?
- MC has rooted itself deeply within BoB's sphere of influence by choosing to deploy outposts and supporting POSes in one of BoB's home regions. We are talking tens of billions of assets that are actually held hostage by BoB - indeed it would take an enormous contract just to offset the potential loss of these assets. Neutrality?
- MC has consistently declined to communicate transparently on its agreement with BoB to live within their space, thus adding a layer of obfuscation. They certainly have valid strategic reasons to do so, however it is a highly deterrent stance for would-be employers who are NOT aligned with BoB.
As I said in a previous post, MC's only master should be the almighty ISK, and nothing else. They cannot afford to be tied to any given political entity, thus they cannot afford to hold any 0.0 space (unless they conquer their own, and manage to hold it against inevitable punitive attacks). If this means they cannot afford a sizeable capital fleet, then so be it, although I can't see why they couldn't finance one with contract ISK.
As for your jab about intelligent design, well, again it looks to me like you're the one lacking facts here, so... pot, kettle, black?
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Yodaron Ballsithor
Gallente
Black Avatar
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:38:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Nez Perces
Originally by: Kespii
Edited by: Kespii on 28/02/2007 13:48:18
You should all stop making the broad assumption that just because MC lives in BoB space, they have to do their bidding for a number of weeks. You all state the assumption that BoB wouldnt let a neutral pvp entity live in its space, but that is just an assumption. Let me guess, you guys also believe in the assumption of intellegent design too? Some people believe in it regardless of evidence and proof. If you do, then it's no wonder you believe in this tin foil crap.
Off-topic.. but I just find it amusing to see a lone FIX voice defending MC in a sea of pretty damning posts. It seems these days FIX is slightly off pace with the general consensus across the boards and not really on-message as far as the pro-BoB contingent is concerned.
Both BoB and MC have now recieved their gagging orders. I think its safe to say that they have withdrawn from the forums... as anything they say will be thrown right back at them.
Tbh it would probably be wise for FIX to follow suit, you guys are cutting such solitary figures defending BoB and MC that its funny... in a pathetic sort of way.
And you, my friend, Nez, are simply trolling for fish. Maybe you should heed your own advice given the lines have been drawn?
Oh, one last question: How would you oare anyone else know what the Eve consensus is? Based upon one set of alliances with more members spewing drivel on the forums?
Just wondering.
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.28 16:48:00 -
[94]
Anyone who thinks its possible to stay neutral is eve is wrong.
If you don't make the decision yourself someone will make it for you.
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$Forum + $Bob + $Devs == $ForumPostCount+++++; |
Haruna Ogawa
Sampa Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.28 18:32:00 -
[95]
What I see as only flaw in the MC logic to be in BOB space is " Ok. you need space to build capital ship to do your business... but who gonna hire you if you are no longer a respectable neutral merc? Why will you need a capital fleet?"
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Entilzah Valen
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.28 18:51:00 -
[96]
Originally by: DeadDuck
I really donĘt care about if Xelas lives in Fountain or if FIX leaves in Querious or MC continues in their constellation building Capitals.
***
I really donĘt understand the allies of BOB
"fighting for their right to pay the rent", because thatĘs what they are doing.
They are not free of having their own political agenda,
they are not free of making their own strategic choices,
they are not free of making anything that might put in danger BOB sovereignty.
Of course they have access to 0 space and make isks, but only because that suits BOB purposes.
From firsthand experience. . .
Whats underlined is whats true. The things in bold are circumstantial in the case of the resident.
Little reason to fight for something that can't determine its own destiny (or is unwilling), in my opinion.
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 19:17:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Yodaron Ballsithor
And you, my friend, Nez, are simply trolling for fish.
.. and one could argue that I found one... my learned friend. 
The important conclusion to draw after the Seleene announcement and this thread is the obvious one.
The Mercenary Coalition has closed its doors for business... indefinitely.
The most high profile mercenary entity in the game is now KIA. Kia Eddz must be laughing all the way to the bank... he's gonna be booked up till next christmas.
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.02.28 19:26:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 28/02/2007 19:24:39
Originally by: Nez Perces
Originally by: Yodaron Ballsithor
And you, my friend, Nez, are simply trolling for fish.
.. and one could argue that I found one... my learned friend.
The important conclusion to draw after the Seleene announcement and this thread is the obvious one.
The Mercenary Coalition has closed its doors for business... indefinitely.
The most high profile mercenary entity in the game is now KIA. Kia Eddz must be laughing all the way to the bank... he's gonna be booked up till next christmas.
Mercenary Coalition stopped beeing mercs when they were big enough and had power enough to make a difference.
Pure neutrality is only reserved for the weak.
As soon as you start to hurt enemies you will gather a reputation and over time this reputation will bite you in the butt because one or more of your enemies just decide that they wont accept the difference between "in" and "off" contract anymore.
Thats pretty much what happened to the MC. Kia has success but are relatively small and havent done many high profile jobs. If you compare their announcements, the feedback they get and in addition their "final stats" with the ones MC get/have you will see 2 different weightclasses.
The conclusion is really simple and has been like this since the first 0.0 alliances formed. Noone likes neutrals. No matter if they are called CFS, Xetic, BigBlue, ISS or powergaming mercs in the coat of MC. At one point in time you will reach a situation where ppl force you either to support them or to support their enemies thats when every civilian/neutral project ends.
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insanebe
Caldari
soni Corp
Imperium Sonorumance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 19:30:00 -
[99]
employing them against BoB might be a big bill but what about a smaller entity e.g Rise who lives in bob space ?
i suspect that this would be a high bill too simply because MC live in BoB space and it would risk them losing their station and this is why everyone views them as being in BoBs pocket,
high bill for wardecing BoB from any merc would be expected but a high bill for attacking a weaker BoB resident is not :p
.....course im making a alot of assumptions here and even if the assumptions are wrong, the assumption it's self then becomes the problem 
knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Yodaron Ballsithor
Gallente
Black Avatar
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.28 20:15:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Nez Perces
Originally by: Yodaron Ballsithor
And you, my friend, Nez, are simply trolling for fish.
.. and one could argue that I found one... my learned friend.
The important conclusion to draw after the Seleene announcement and this thread is the obvious one.
The Mercenary Coalition has closed its doors for business... indefinitely.
The most high profile mercenary entity in the game is now KIA. Kia Eddz must be laughing all the way to the bank... he's gonna be booked up till next christmas.
If the price is right, why not close your doors until the funds run out. Is that not how all mercs operate? One job at a time? Or did I miss something?
I did notice that you stayed away from my other questions. Most wise old friend.
And Yes, I still consider Nez a friend (which will irk many Fixions). We have a long and fruitful history together.
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Grimster
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.28 20:41:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Nez Perces
Both BoB and MC have now recieved their gagging orders.
Oh touchT old man, pay to play 'nall
Nice to see you're still rattling around Nez.
Blog at: The Jammy Blog |
Troubadour
Slacker Industries
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.02.28 20:57:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Founder Meo
in all honesty if they fight well enough bob might just give em some space.
See above.
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fugazii
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:19:00 -
[103]
stay competitive, i hardly think outposts is needed, they could have used that isk to put towards thier capitol fleet, or providing members with even more of what they need.
if they have enough isk to build 4 outposts 100ish bil + pos's, and still continualy expand thier capitol fleet there is no reason they needed the outposts in the first place, especially since most of the time theyre not even being used. keep in mind also mc have a large t2 bpo cache also, constantly feeding isk into the alliance pocket(yes i know it is said the items form the bpo's go to members but mc doesnt lose all that many ships, numbers jst dont add up).
production, alt corps, buying ships through an alt, low sec pos's, npc .0's the list goes on, but doesnt include having to do it in an alliances space.
seleene has continously said the space is so thier members can enjoy other aspect of the game, fair enough. if that was true, why would they choose a place so remote. it would make more sence to be in an 0.0 region with npc stations so missions are possible, not jst being limited to mining and npc'n in period basis.
attacks, while they havent had one(that i know of) aside from aaa, that doesnt take away from the fact that was and is unwise to own space if your a merc. as said by op, when they leave the could be attacked, what then, let thier space be taken or continue on doing what theyre being paid to do? a npc region would not have this problem.
from the start they never should have opt'd to be non-paying renters. im not saying theyre in the pockets of bob, but it sure makes them look it.
all in all, they should stay in npc regions. get back to thier roots, they did fine then, no reason why they wouldnt now.
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Taison
Russian SOBR
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:24:00 -
[104]
Originally by: fugazii
stay competitive, i hardly think outposts is needed, they could have used that isk to put towards thier capitol fleet, or providing members with even more of what they need.
if they have enough isk to build 4 outposts 100ish bil + pos's, and still continualy expand thier capitol fleet there is no reason they needed the outposts in the first place, especially since most of the time theyre not even being used. keep in mind also mc have a large t2 bpo cache also, constantly feeding isk into the alliance pocket(yes i know it is said the items form the bpo's go to members but mc doesnt lose all that many ships, numbers jst dont add up).
production, alt corps, buying ships through an alt, low sec pos's, npc .0's the list goes on, but doesnt include having to do it in an alliances space.
seleene has continously said the space is so thier members can enjoy other aspect of the game, fair enough. if that was true, why would they choose a place so remote. it would make more sence to be in an 0.0 region with npc stations so missions are possible, not jst being limited to mining and npc'n in period basis.
attacks, while they havent had one(that i know of) aside from aaa, that doesnt take away from the fact that was and is unwise to own space if your a merc. as said by op, when they leave the could be attacked, what then, let thier space be taken or continue on doing what theyre being paid to do? a npc region would not have this problem.
from the start they never should have opt'd to be non-paying renters. im not saying theyre in the pockets of bob, but it sure makes them look it.
all in all, they should stay in npc regions. get back to thier roots, they did fine then, no reason why they wouldnt now.
Good thoughts. They could have just bought or order that capital ships and defend the capital yard it is build in without alligning for a side. But like i described before - MC toook the easy way and became just another pet alliance. Sad was that moment...
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Trind2222
Amarr
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:32:00 -
[105]
Mercenary Coalition don't need other corp to tell them what to do if you got the money they will offer the service to you if not they will not offer the service to you.
And if you look true the word book for mercenary you find out they are hired soliders free to do what they want go where the best deals are done.
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Taison
Russian SOBR
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:36:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Trind2222
Mercenary Coalition don't need other corp to tell them what to do if you got the money they will offer the service to you if not they will not offer the service to you.
And if you look true the word book for mercenary you find out they are hired soliders free to do what they want go where the best deals are done.
U must have missed seleen's post - thats what this post is reffering to. And in the light of his post - this discussion has a valid place.
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 21:44:00 -
[107]
Originally by: fugazii
if they have enough isk to build 4 outposts 100ish bil + pos's, and still continualy expand thier capitol fleet there is no reason they needed the outposts in the first place, especially since most of the time theyre not even being used. keep in mind also mc have a large t2 bpo cache also, constantly feeding isk into the alliance pocket(yes i know it is said the items form the bpo's go to members but mc doesnt lose all that many ships, numbers jst dont add up).
Yup that is a very good point...
100 bil + pos and fuel buys you a pretty decent size capital fleet... but ofc they didn't build the outposts all in one go, they were built over a period of time on the back of safe access to quality 0.0. The first outpost would have been the initial investment and the other 3 would pay for themselves and a replenishable capital fleet. I think its naive to believe that you can build capital fleets without quality 0.0 mining on tap.
In alliance leadership discussions some time ago (when I was part of an alliance), somebody suggested that outposts are like "implants for industry". I guess thats what MC's outposts really are.
There is the possiblilty as well that MC leadership had to make compromises with their membership and offer them the *other* aspects of the game that a home provides (npcing, hulk mining for private gain, quality complex access, etc..). Maybe "only" being a merc gets old fast if thats all you do day in day out, without some "R&R" in a safe zone.
If you take all factors into account... it seems MC had to pay a price to remain competitive with the big boys and to keep its membership happy inbetween contracts.
MC leadership are not stupid. However, I do believe that at the end of the day some hard choices had to be made and they probably compromised their mercenary ideals once too often. Now MC is widely viewed as an extension of BoB's military. (no point denying it, only the blind will see otherwise) I'm quite sure thats not what Seleene wanted.
The Mercenary Coalition are a quality outfit, skilled, talented honourable etc... but mercenaries.... that shoe doesn't fit anymore. MC is another alliance no different from the rest.
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Julien Derida
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.01 00:26:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Nez Perces
The most high profile mercenary entity in the game is now KIA. Kia Eddz must be laughing all the way to the bank... he's gonna be booked up till next christmas.
I love KIA. They are good fighters and they are good friends of ours. However, holding them up as some example of a more neutral merc operation than us is ridiculous. Eddz has stated several times that he would never accept a contract against the Goons. In fact, Eddz has always maintained that friendship>ISK for them. That is probably the main difference between them and us.
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Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK |
Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.03.01 00:41:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Julien Derida
Eddz has stated several times that he would never accept a contract against the Goons. In fact, Eddz has always maintained that friendship>ISK for them. That is probably the main difference between them and us.
I was not aware of this agreement between KIA and Goons. It would be interesting to hear their take on your statement.
If this is true then yes there would be no real difference between MC and KIA, except that KIA aren't widely percieved as intrinsically tied to the Goons where as the BoB/MC connection is now part of EVE-wide consciousness.
It would be interesting to know if KIA use Goon territories to make money inbetween contracts.
Tbh if a mercenary outfit refuses to engage a certain entity or puts such a high price on doing so that it becomes academic, then the mercenary entity starts to become a political appendage of said entity. This is true if for no other reason than because the mercs are then one less thing to worry about.
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Julien Derida
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.01 01:04:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Nez Perces
Originally by: Julien Derida
Eddz has stated several times that he would never accept a contract against the Goons. In fact, Eddz has always maintained that friendship>ISK for them. That is probably the main difference between them and us.
I was not aware of this agreement between KIA and Goons. It would be interesting to hear their take on your statement.
If this is true then yes there would be no real difference between MC and KIA, except that KIA aren't widely percieved as intrinsically tied to the Goons where as the BoB/MC connection is now part of EVE-wide consciousness.
It would be interesting to know if KIA use Goon territories to make money inbetween contracts.
Tbh if a mercenary outfit refuses to engage a certain entity or puts such a high price on doing so that it becomes academic, then the mercenary entity starts to become a political appendage of said entity. This is true if for no other reason than because the mercs are then one less thing to worry about.
Honestly Nez, you need to let go of the idea that a merc organisation stops being legitimate once it enters into an agreement or bussiness relationship with a political organisation. That view is, frankly, an anachronism. The current game mechanics have forced the mercenary to either make deals of this kind, or be left behind as insignificant in the capital age.
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Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK |
dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.03.01 01:12:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Julien Derida
Honestly Nez, you need to let go of the idea that a merc organisation stops being legitimate once it enters into an agreement or bussiness relationship with a political organisation. That view is, frankly, an anachronism.
Correct!
Now if only you MC guys hadn't spent 2 years (or whatever it is since you moved into BoB's house) claiming otherwise...
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Razor Jaxx
Fate.
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Posted - 2007.03.01 01:22:00 -
[112]
I honestly don't think people would have any beef with MC not being neutral - I know I wouldn't. What people are asking is that you stop treating them like half-wits by pretending to be neutral, when it's quite obvious you are not, that's all. Did Seleene really expect any coalition entities to make inquiries about a BoB contract? I mean, come on.
Besides, I don't think admitting to being partial would affect your capacity as mercs, it would just limit your potential customer base, that's about it. If siding with BoB, and getting privileged access to a portion of 0.0 space, works for you then fine, it's your choice. Just be honest about it; in the long run I'm sure it'd be even better for business.
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Kaylana Syi
The Nest
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.03.01 01:34:00 -
[113]
They should do what they always do.. pew pew pew.
Team Minmatar
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Julien Derida
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.01 01:37:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Julien Derida on 01/03/2007 01:33:33
I think you chaps are projecting somewhat to be honest. You seem to think that when we say we're 'neutral' we are saying that we don't have any business relationships with any other organisations. That would be a stupid thing to say, and it is obviously not what we mean. As Seleene has stated multiple times, what we mean by 'neutral' is that we are perfectly open to abandoning our existing business relationships if a more beneficial offer comes along. No matter how many times we say this, you still seem to think we are claiming something more like the first definition.
I'm not really sure how we could make our position any more clear.
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Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK |
Wraithstorm
Elite Storm Enterprises
Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.03.01 01:47:00 -
[115]
Originally by: The Anointed
I have always had a certain admiration for what the MC is and does. The main problem I think, and the reason that their hand was forced in the first instance, is that in order to truly offer anywhere near the level of service that they appear to want to, they were going to get dragged into 0.0 and politics.
Now their choice of alliance, I personaly think, was the right one for stability reasons, for PR reasons, possibly not, but then the Anti BoB sentiment wasnt actually all that high from what I could see when they made the choice.
The location of their outposts, obviously I have no idea for the actual reasons for placing them there, but as far as safety goes, they are perfect. Again for saving face and looking like a neutral entity it could be argued that they are a little deep.
All in all I dont think the MC made any real mistakes at all, although I do not pretend to know the innerworkings, so you never know, maybe they did. They made the same choices that I beleive I would have made.
Now this is completley my own line of thought, but if I was anyhting more than a new comer to the whole alliance thing, I would have offered a contract to MC, one with very little risk. I would have paid them to do nothing (boring I know, but most likely cheaper than paying them to do something). If I had decided to rinse some real isk, I would have negotiated using their little corner of the world to fight from (probably not much strategic advantage, but still, would have been nice).
Long winded way of saying, I dont think the MC could have done anything at all differently in order to acheive what they wanted to and still avoid the situation. The only thing I hold against the MC is the Big Blue.
Good Luck to everyone involved, This sort of situation is where eve elevates itself above every other game I have ever played.
**This is my own personal opinion and may or may not be a by-product of the voices in my head**
Well put post bro, and somewhat inline with my thoughts, and feelings about this whole thing. Its so damn easy to look at the inside of the house from outside and point the finger, but really instead of asking yourselves what MC should do, why not ask yourselves what YOU would have or would do.
Some dummies are still going to come on here and claim holier then thou, but then this thread isnt about constructive thoughts on the MC is it?, its about how much more they are now BOB pets.
Anyways, I give respect to MC whatever that is worth, because they stand by their guns and do what they feel is in their best interests despite knowing full and well the onslaught of replies, and threads that were going to follow
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Jorja Fox
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.01 02:11:00 -
[116]
Unless someone actually tried to hire the MC to fight against BoB and got a price for it to compare to other capaigns , this whole thread is really null and void ...
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Kaylis T2U
Caldari
Sturmgrenadier lnc
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Posted - 2007.03.01 03:11:00 -
[117]
Then maybe the question is......How much to attack BoB?
If you truly are as neutral as stated prior, name the price and see if there are entities willing to pay it...
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Nathan Grey
Gallente
Slacker Industries
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.03.01 04:30:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Anyone who thinks its possible to stay neutral is eve is wrong.
If you don't make the decision yourself someone will make it for you.
QFmf'ingT |
Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.01 04:57:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 01/03/2007 04:54:06
You know, "you are either with us or against us" is a really bad policy in a war like this one.
To my eyes MC have done just about everything right as a merc group, and to be utterly honest I think the only people to blame for MC going to BoB on this one are the ones with such little imagination that they seem to see the world of EVE as actually split down the middle between BoB and anti-BoB.
If someone had come up with a reasonable plan to use MC against BoB, and people should understand that this was the first time that option has actually existed in a realistic manner to my eye, then said person might very well have managed to get MC on his side if he had bid reasonably and shown that this wave of hatred against BoB was both going to be well directed and was sustainable.
But instead the people who could do that shot at them. In fact, attacking MC on the forums and in game may very well have lowered the cost to BoB of hiring MC for this war. Good job that.
And as to this idea of 'true' mercs... um thats really quite the unrealistic understanding of the subject both historically in regards to mercenary forces and in the context of EVE.
Still, it makes for good entertainment watching from the sidelines.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Ewa Quillam
Caldari
mega mining corporation
Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2007.03.01 09:41:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 01/03/2007 04:54:06
You know, "you are either with us or against us" is a really bad policy in a war like this one.
To my eyes MC have done just about everything right as a merc group, and to be utterly honest I think the only people to blame for MC going to BoB on this one are the ones with such little imagination that they seem to see the world of EVE as actually split down the middle between BoB and anti-BoB.
If someone had come up with a reasonable plan to use MC against BoB, and people should understand that this was the first time that option has actually existed in a realistic manner to my eye, then said person might very well have managed to get MC on his side if he had bid reasonably and shown that this wave of hatred against BoB was both going to be well directed and was sustainable.
But instead the people who could do that shot at them. In fact, attacking MC on the forums and in game may very well have lowered the cost to BoB of hiring MC for this war. Good job that.
And as to this idea of 'true' mercs... um thats really quite the unrealistic understanding of the subject both historically in regards to mercenary forces and in the context of EVE.
Still, it makes for good entertainment watching from the sidelines.
In an ideal Eve world with a non compromised MC this would work, not in this one.
Do you at least realize the cost of such a contract? It would at least cost the value of the MC assets based in BoB space, as insurance... BoB doesn't have to pay for that.
It would actually be a waste of money to hire this kind of mercenaries. It would also be a waste of time to conceive a plan and brief them out, because they want to see the big picture instead of taking the money and follow orders and don't ask questions, like real thugs do.
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