| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
HongHi Choi
Biometaloid INC
   |
Posted - 2007.02.27 23:27:00 -
[1]
My friend said to train drone sharpshooting to lvl5 and to keep drone navigation at lvl4, cause my drones will not be able to track properly and therefore lose dps. Is this true?
|
FullBoat
Proferon
|
Posted - 2007.02.28 02:02:00 -
[2]
afair They have fixed that bug. But, to be on the safe side, I have my navigation one level lower then my sharpshooting. :)
|
Hon Kovell
Gallente
Intaki Peace
|
Posted - 2007.02.28 04:37:00 -
[3]
I haven't checked since the latest patch but prior to it the bug was back and drone navigation was affecting orbit speed again.
Did anyone ever confirm if sharpshooting helped? It doesn't seem to affect orbit distance to me but I don't have anyone handy to test it with properly. |
Reto
The Last Resort
|
Posted - 2007.02.28 05:02:00 -
[4]
/bump
and i have drone navigation at lvl 1 atm and didnt train it any further because of this bug. ppl told me the devs messed it totally up creating skills which counteract against eachother. this is one of the things i currently hate about drones.
why are they never coming back to dronebay and stop once u issue the command ? why do drones deacitvate mwd and slowboating towards u if ur ship is flying with an active ab or mwd and why are the skills bugged ?
tbh i hate to express my concerns but still i didnt see this issues adressed since i joined eve back in january 2005. and tbh if amarr and caldari getting fixed all the time its not too much asking for a lil drone fixing. its not a boost we are talking about its a simple fix of the drone control code and the rethinking of the drone skillset effects and calculation methods. currently drones are one of the most unreliable weapon systems out there and this should be changed.
 Originally by: s4mp3r0r
"Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
|
Kumu Honua
|
Posted - 2007.02.28 09:25:00 -
[5]
Navigation does NOT affect orbit speed. Only MWD speed.
This means that your drones get to the target faster. Once the MWD is off, they orbit normally.
You can see this for yourself.
Show your drones on overview, and show velocity. You will notice the speed as they go to the target, then after they turn off the MWD, you will see them at orbit velocity.
|
Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Revelation Space
|
Posted - 2007.02.28 11:27:00 -
[6]
wow I guess the last poster has proven it isn't a known bug 
|
Sal Tuskin
|
Posted - 2007.02.28 16:52:00 -
[7]
i am new to the game 2 months in and i realy would like and anser i have drone sharp to 2 and nav to 2 should i raise my sharp to 3 just to be safe or have i alreay messed up with having drone nav anyhow
|
Kumu Honua
|
Posted - 2007.02.28 21:26:00 -
[8]
Well slap me red and call me susan.
It WAS fixed, but appears broken again.
Nav 3, and drones are MWDing at 1931 (That's right). But they are now orbiting at 550.
Why can't they keep that fixed?....
|
Mog Carns
Industrial Warlords
United Confederation of Corporations
|
Posted - 2007.03.01 17:56:00 -
[9]
Gallente Special Forces begin life with Drone Nav 5.
Having even light drones hit their targets really isn't a problem. Maybe Warrior2s shooting a siege mode dread... but don't you have bigger problems by that time?
Nor does Drone Nav affect all drones. Mining Drones, for one, are not affected.
Clueless Noob |
teth'eala
Caldari
Grey Scribes Inc
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 05:26:00 -
[10]
hmm think theres any chance we'll get a dev's comment on this subject? i'd sure like a strait answer.
do you have a loved one that's playing wow? give them a hug and tell tham that if they need a real mmo they can look no farther than eve |
|
|
Tristan Valiant
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 11:09:00 -
[11]
if you EVER want to be a capital ship pilot and use fighters never train navigation above 3 because if you do your fighters will over shoot their targets, usually. at least thats what a friend of mine told me when he was testing his capital ship.
P/s (posting with alt to protect corporation identity)
|
n0thing
Northern Intelligence
Artificial Intelligence.
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 11:38:00 -
[12]
So is there any pathcnotes that say if its fixed or not?
If its not then suggested skills are Nav to 4 and Sharpshooting to 5 or the other way around?
---
tnx. |
Auren I'del
Minmatar
Freelancer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 15:42:00 -
[13]
I have navigation lvl5 and my drones have no problem hiting anything. If there is a loss in dps/tracking it cant be much as frigs and intys go down pretty fast.
|
Mr Krosis
The humble Crew
|
Posted - 2007.03.06 19:31:00 -
[14]
We need a sticky about this or something.. seems the same question comes up every few weeks.
Currently (as of 5 minutes ago), and every time I've tested it over the last year, it has worked like this:
Drone Nav (and the nav computer modules) increase BOTH the MWD and orbit speed of drones. As it does not increase their agility, you will see a slight (about 10:1) increase in orbit range as your drones move faster (assuming the target is stationary).
Drone sharpshooting has 0 effect on drone orbit range.
Repeat after me.
Drone sharpshooting has 0 effect on drone orbit range.
It increases the OPTIMAL range of their WEAPON only. This is mainly noticable with sentry drones, but if your drones are chasing a target that is orbiting you and moving slightly faster than your drones, they will start to drift away from the target (but since it is orbiting you, there is a maximum distance they will drift). In this situation, having a longer optimal will help them as well.
So yes, increasing drone nav, or fitting a nav computer will make your drones orbit faster and thus hit less. But drones have very good tracking to begin with so assuming you are using appropriate sized drones, you probably wont notice this. Even if you are using oversized drones, they will hit pretty good if the target is moving. Heavy drones chasing a frigate that is moving 300m/s don't really have to track much. This being said you should almost never web a target if you are using oversized drones. Forcing your drones to orbit only makes it harder for them to track. Target painters on the other hand always help.
-- Mr Krosis
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
NoNah
|
Posted - 2007.03.09 09:38:00 -
[15]
Max velocity: 5040 m/s
orbit velocity: 900 m/s
trackingspeed: 3,24 rad /s
Max velocity: 4200 m/s
orbit velocity: 750 m/s
trackingspeed: 2,7 rad /s
Max Velocity: 700 m/s
Orbit velocity: 250 m/s
Tracking: 0.3 rad / sec
Max velocity: 840 m/s
Orbit velocity: 300 m/s
Tracking 0,36 rad/s
Max Velocity: 1260 m/s
Orbit velocity: 420 m/s
Trackingspeed: 0.567 rad /s
This is stolen right from the item database.
Example #1: Warrior I, baseorbit - 750 m/s, 937,5 with nav V, and a trackingspeed of 2,7 rad / s. This means 1.35 lapses per second, wich means a laps must be (937.5 / 1.35 / ((orbit * 2) * Pi)) wich means 937.5 / 1.35 / 2Pi = max orbit, wich gives, note this is just quick math at the top of my newly awakened mind, 110.5 max orbiting distance. And when I say max, I mean, if the orbit is higher than that the drone will hit.
#2: Warrior II(fastest light), orbit is 900 - 1125 m/s, 3,24 tracking.
(900 * 1.25) / (3.24 * 0.5) / 2Pi = 1125 / 1,62 / 2Pi = 110,6m max orbit.(Rounding errors)
#3: Ogre I(Slowest heavy), 250 orbit, 0.3 tracking
(250 * 1.25) / (0.3 * 0.5) / 2Pi = 312.5 / 0.15 / 2Pi = 331.7 max orbit.
#4: Ogre II, 300 orbit, 0.36 tracking
375 / 0.18 / 6.28(origin of most significant rounding errors) = 331.7 max orbit.(Doubt I need to prove the relation betwen t1 and t2 anymore)
#5 Berserker II(Fastest heavy) 420, 0.567
525 / 0.2835 / 2Pi = 294.9 Max orbit.
Now, I dont know these exact numbers, and as im actually on my laptop in the bathroom, I cant really test it either, but feel free to point out whats wrong with the above, and what the actual orbit distances are, I do ,humbly as always, doubt that even Ogres are orbiting at 330m or less.
Oh, and as for the modules, they increase the power of the mwd with 25N right? And afaik, no mwd is active when theyre orbiting, especially not a immobile target.
Also note that all of the above is based of attacking a stationary target, sig radius does not matter, as that will only decrease the accurasy later on, but wouldve done so equally with infinite tracking. And it also considers the fact that EVE is using absoulte transversal and not relative, as a relative transversal wouldve solved all of this, and also allowed nanoblasterboats.
|
Mr Krosis
The humble Crew
|
Posted - 2007.03.09 18:33:00 -
[16]
Tracking speed influences chance to hit, not orbit range... and you can't really disregard signature radius of the target. Tracking is not a flat hit/miss if it is greater than or less than. It influences the hit curve with sig res / sig radius factored in. If the transversal comes out to exactly the same as your guns tracking speed, AND your target is the same size as your guns sig res, you have about a 50% chance to hit. Check out the flash guide on tracking (specifically the simulator on the last page) in the Player Guide linked on the main site.
Drones orbit at about 750m-1.25km. They don't have an "orbit range" stat, their range is just based on how fast they move and their agility. If you massivly increase their speed, you will see their orbit range drift out slightly. To see this fit 3-4 nav computers on a drone ship, undock, launch drones. Add them to your overview, look at their speed/range. Turn off nav computers 1 by 1 and you will see them start to slow down, and orbit tighter.
The nav computers are 25% speed increase on drones MWD and orbit speeds (I know it says 25N.. it's 25%). It is stacking penalized with more than 1 module.
-- Mr Krosis
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
NoNah
|
Posted - 2007.03.09 22:50:00 -
[17]
No, I feel youve very much so missunderstood my brief calculations. The max orbits I provide, is where the drones will start hitting again. Under perfect conditions, sig radius below resolution, and tracking fast enough for the opponents transversal, the accursay should be 100%(or very very close to it, as there is most likely some random variable to it, still).
However, transversal speed is not measured in angluar movement, wich tracking however is. Compare rad / s to m /s. Therefor there will be a point where the circle(the orbit) is wide enough for any rad / s to outnumber the velocity. This could be done by a very much shorter and prettier sinusbased algorithm, but the ones I provided should do the trick.
|
Mr Krosis
The humble Crew
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 00:41:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Mr Krosis on 10/03/2007 00:39:59
Edited by: Mr Krosis on 10/03/2007 00:39:19
Originally by: NoNah
Under perfect conditions, sig radius below resolution, and tracking fast enough for the opponents transversal, the accursay should be 100%(or very very close to it, as there is most likely some random variable to it, still).
Could you show me the formula you get this from? According to the tracking guide, in a situation where turret tracking is 10% higher than target angular velocity, and target sig radius is 10% larger (sig radius larger than resolution makes you hit better, not the reverse) than resolution, you have about a 60% chance to hit. Not sure where you get this 100% (or very close) hit probability.
Although I admit I may be misunderstanding something, I don't really get the point of what you're trying to say. It just looks to me like you're saying if angular velocity < tracking speed of gun, you always hit. That definitly is not the case. Signature radius plays a very significant part in this calculation as well.
Edit: and yes, I am aware of the difference between transversal velocity and angular velocity. But 1km/s transversal at a range of 1km is still 1 rad/s.
-- Mr Krosis
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Mr Krosis
The humble Crew
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 01:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Mr Krosis on 10/03/2007 01:35:21
meh.. I think me and NoNah chatted and figure out what each other was saying
If anyone is interested, here are some numbers gathered from testing the effects of naviagtion computers (drone speed increase) in relation to orbit range / velocity increase / etc.) Linkage
It's not really pretty.. "still" orbit speed means drones orbiting their owner. "chase" orbit speed means drones chasing a target, but not engaging their MWD (in practice this was a frigate with an AB moving about 1km/s). Its late and I dont feel like explaining it much more, just some in game measurements for those that are interested
-- Mr Krosis
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Juwi Kotch
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Galactic-Federation
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 11:09:00 -
[20]
So the conclusion is, that it does not hurt to train Drone Navigation to level 5?
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
|
|
NoNah
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 12:06:00 -
[21]
Conclusion is, dont do maths when tired or drunk.
Further on, I lack some numbers to get a fair conclusion out of it, such as orbiting distance at nav V, however, as is, it seems heavy drones are borderlining their tracking, to stationary targets, when having nav V, then again tracking links should help. Sharpshooting should however not.
For a recomendation - dont train nav V - yet.
|
Juwi Kotch
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Galactic-Federation
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 12:57:00 -
[22]
Ok, thanks, stopped training Drone Navigation to level 5, 7 hours before completion...
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Mr Krosis
The humble Crew
|
Posted - 2007.03.10 20:06:00 -
[23]
I would say the conclusion is there is no simple answer.
Does drone navigation make your drones orbit speed faster? Yes.
Does a faster orbit speed make your drones hit less? Not necessarily.
The only time this really shows up as a "bad" thing is if your target is not moving or webbed which forces your drone into a perfect orbit. This is always a bad thing for oversized drones regardless of your level in drone nav.
I tested this just a little bit now, sending Ogre I and Hammerhead I against a stationary frigate (Jaguar Assault Frigate, Sig Radius: 34m). The drone controller had drone navigation level 3 (+15% orbit speed).
Out of 300 shots over 10 minutes, the Ogre I had 297 misses and 3 wrecking hits. This is a heavy drone orbiting and shooting at a stationary frigate. Would drone nav at level 5 made this any worse? Probably not. I then started flying the frigate in a straight line at 290m/s (just over the drones orbit speed). Angular velocity went down to about 0.001, and hit rate went up to about 100% (I'll attribute the 1 in 10 misses to the fact that I was 500m into falloff)
For the Hammerhead I, out of 300 shots it had 89 hits and 211 misses. The tracking guide shows that I should get a 30% hit rate with that drone at that range, so that seems about right. Based on other observations, I would guess that raising drone nav to lvl 5 would lower that down to 25% or so.
Personally, I don't think these numbers matter much because how often do you fight a frigate that doesn't move? As soon as your target starts moving, the drones go into a follow path and the transversal between them and the target goes way down. Once your target is moving, would you rather have drones that can't keep up with the target or drones that are fast enough to stay on top of them?
My personal opinion on this matter is that there is not much difference between drone nav 4 and 5. Or at least there is nothing specific about going from level 4 to level 5, and sharpshooting has nothing to do with it. With 5 you'll get the expected advantage, faster drones that can keep up with things. The main disadvantage is if you are using oversized drones they won't hit stationary targets as well. It is certainly not the "sky is falling end of the world" drones all of the sudden stop working type thing some people make it out to be. If they were going to miss at nav5, they were probably going to miss at nav4 as well.
-- Mr Krosis
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Juwi Kotch
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Galactic-Federation
|
Posted - 2007.03.11 13:02:00 -
[24]
Thanks for that info, Mr. Krosis! 
/me switches on Drone Navigation again, and exchanges webber for target painter in the PvE ship
Juwi Kotch
JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG! |
Radioactive Babe
Red Frost
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 12:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mr Krosis
I would say the conclusion is there is no simple answer.
Does drone navigation make your drones orbit speed faster? Yes.
Does a faster orbit speed make your drones hit less? Not necessarily.
The only time this really shows up as a "bad" thing is if your target is not moving or webbed which forces your drone into a perfect orbit. This is always a bad thing for oversized drones regardless of your level in drone nav.
I tested this just a little bit now, sending Ogre I and Hammerhead I against a stationary frigate (Jaguar Assault Frigate, Sig Radius: 34m). The drone controller had drone navigation level 3 (+15% orbit speed).
Out of 300 shots over 10 minutes, the Ogre I had 297 misses and 3 wrecking hits. This is a heavy drone orbiting and shooting at a stationary frigate. Would drone nav at level 5 made this any worse? Probably not. I then started flying the frigate in a straight line at 290m/s (just over the drones orbit speed). Angular velocity went down to about 0.001, and hit rate went up to about 100% (I'll attribute the 1 in 10 misses to the fact that I was 500m into falloff)
For the Hammerhead I, out of 300 shots it had 89 hits and 211 misses. The tracking guide shows that I should get a 30% hit rate with that drone at that range, so that seems about right. Based on other observations, I would guess that raising drone nav to lvl 5 would lower that down to 25% or so.
Personally, I don't think these numbers matter much because how often do you fight a frigate that doesn't move? As soon as your target starts moving, the drones go into a follow path and the transversal between them and the target goes way down. Once your target is moving, would you rather have drones that can't keep up with the target or drones that are fast enough to stay on top of them?
My personal opinion on this matter is that there is not much difference between drone nav 4 and 5. Or at least there is nothing specific about going from level 4 to level 5, and sharpshooting has nothing to do with it. With 5 you'll get the expected advantage, faster drones that can keep up with things. The main disadvantage is if you are using oversized drones they won't hit stationary targets as well. It is certainly not the "sky is falling end of the world" drones all of the sudden stop working type thing some people make it out to be. If they were going to miss at nav5, they were probably going to miss at nav4 as well.
I know this is a necro but that was an excellent post ... seems like the only time you should fit a drone navigation mod is if you are using warriors 2's to catch that inty thats orbiting at 5km/s .... and I will also be finishing nav to 5 and fitting a painter ... and only sending out small drones against stationary frigs  |
Selya
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 16:27:00 -
[26]
This thread is really great, explanations are excellent and definitely answer to questions about drone navigation level 5. Thanks! :)
|
Liang Nuren
Red 42
CORE.
|
Posted - 2007.04.13 18:50:00 -
[27]
Wow, nice job guys... good explanations. Sticky?
Liang
|
Lusian
|
Posted - 2007.04.18 06:14:00 -
[28]
They have not fixed thr bug because i have used a drone navigation that gives like 25% thrust. The drones didnt get as many shots in at it would normally would have if it were turned off, erm th emoduel i mean.
Better sharp shooting and nav at 3 vecause you want procision drones and you want them sergical. So make sure they can hit they're target and not fly around liek hotshots and miss the trget so to speak. the game is weird like that.
Maybe in the next patch.
|
Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
|
Posted - 2007.04.18 11:04:00 -
[29]
These bugs keep me on my toes :), will add a linky to this in the guide.
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me..
Drone guide.. |
Veritas Falx
|
Posted - 2007.04.18 21:41:00 -
[30]
People, I tested it using overview speeds about two weeks ago going from DNav 0 to DNav 1. Does not effect orbit speed. End of story.
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |