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Teufel Hund
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Posted - 2007.03.02 09:35:00 -
[61]
Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.
So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.
Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 09:36:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Topaz Skydiver Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 02/03/2007 09:27:29 Invention needs to be tweeked, but it's not about building your own tech-2 modules for personal use ! It's supposed to make those rich, who go through all the hassle, time investment, isk investment and logistic work to get competitive.
I'm noticing that I can't get easy into it from one day to another and that's 'good', because I don't want to compete with 10.000 inventors in the end, so that t2 production will be as flooded with producers as tech-1 production is.
Actually, if it feels like wasting isk and time for a few weeks it's a good sign. I think the interfaces are already too cheap. Looks like the drop-rate is way too high. Invention is for those, who want to work their ass of to get into it and not for the random mission runner, who wants to produce a bit tech-2 like he produces his own ammo.
If invention means real hard work in the beginning and reaping the rewards later with less effort, then it's what I'm looking for.
Yes!
T2 BPOs from lotteries for mission runners should be a very rare thing. T2 BPOs/good BPCs from invention people should be a hard thing to achieve.
Small run T2 BPCs from rat droppings, small RP purchases from parttimer Mission runners ; these should be relatively common, so that many people can get a few T2 items here and there, but not everything.
There needs to be a market, and I think a varied market. It was very cool when we operated the Ishtar BPO for a while, we tooled the whole corp around that activity, it gave us an identity. Where we sold it changed the face of the market in that area and probably changed what people around us chose to do ship running, or created a secondary market of people doing regional buys and reselling in other areas. Specialization in production is just as intersting as it is in character building. When T2 is just as common as T1 is, it will be just as boring. And while everyone going pew-pew won't care, those corps who actually ENJOY production will have one less intersting thing going on in EVE. ---
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 09:38:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Teufel Hund
Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.
Have you made a new character lately?
Most of them start with better skills than I have in some areas now 3 years later. 800k skillpoint start. ---
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Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
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Posted - 2007.03.02 09:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Teufel Hund Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.
So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.
Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.
So, please do tell everybody - why do you think you are special? How do you "deserve" an ISK printer and someone else does not? I pray you also use the words "hard work" and "personal responsibility" in your spiel.
See, the PvP side of the game is actually balanced in such a way that a 5 mil SP noob has a chance of winning against a 35 mil SP character. And, yes, it has been done on purpose, and actually makes this game fun. As for T2 BPs, currently they amount to an "I-Win-EVE" button. They produce ungodly income with very little effort involved. As such, they are unbalanced - in a game mechanics "unbalanced" sense. There is nothing Marxist in stating that the current T2 manufacturing system is unbalanced, corrupted ("recent events" anyone?), and needs an overhaul.
No, you do not deserve that T2 BP more than any other player.
And, yes, I did finish reading Das Kapital. Have you?
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 09:56:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Teufel Hund Wow who let all the Marxists in? I guess I should just give up 20 million of my 35 million skillpoint character because it isnt fair to the newer players. Since when is there a level playing field in life or in EVE? I hop on to EVE and pray to the R&D agent God for a nice BPO but have yet to see one.
So because I dont have one that means everyone who does have one should give it up or have it turn into a BPC? Doesnt matter how they worked for it, whether saving isk from missions, pirating it from that unlucky guy, mining for weeks, to buy it or training up the skills or paying for 3-4 years worth of EVE to have tons of research points. That is some scary thinking. Im sorry, I dont expect to get a level playing field, I have to level it myself.
Whats next? Players starting with 10 millions skillpoints to make them on a more "fair playing field" as other players? Downright scary.
So, please do tell everybody - why do you think you are special? How do you "deserve" an ISK printer and someone else does not? I pray you also use the words "hard work" and "personal responsibility" in your spiel.
See, the PvP side of the game is actually balanced in such a way that a 5 mil SP noob has a chance of winning against a 35 mil SP character. And, yes, it has been done on purpose, and actually makes this game fun. As for T2 BPs, currently they amount to an "I-Win-EVE" button. They produce ungodly income with very little effort involved. As such, they are unbalanced - in a game mechanics "unbalanced" sense. There is nothing Marxist in stating that the current T2 manufacturing system is unbalanced, corrupted ("recent events" anyone?), and needs an overhaul.
No, you do not deserve that T2 BP more than any other player.
And, yes, I did finish reading Das Kapital. Have you?
Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it. ---
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Phyrr
Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2007.03.02 09:58:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Phyrr on 02/03/2007 09:56:25 I for one will take you up on your offer. Although I may need a little time to get the necessary skills. I shall PM you soon.
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Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth
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Posted - 2007.03.02 10:09:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Mortania
Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it.
For one, no lottery IRL gives you a lifetime advantage over your peers. You can win a substantial amount of currency, but that is that. No lottery will allow you to win, say, a lifetime best-selling drug patent.
Furthermore, how is RL relevant to game balance?
EVE's economics and business models don't work like RL analogs... Just like there are no jump gates in orbit around Saturn
And I have already made clear what I do advocate elsewhere in this thread. I advocate the removal of ISK-printer status from the currently existing "good" BPOs. Whether it will be done by buffing Invention, BPC drops from belt rats, conversion of all Vaga BPOs into rechargeable BPCs is largely irrelevant. But ISK printing should be stopped once and for all.
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Phyrr
Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2007.03.02 10:13:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Mortania
Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! Most people who have a T2 BPO because they paid ISK for it. They did in fact EARN it.
For one, no lottery IRL gives you a lifetime advantage over your peers. You can win a substantial amount of currency, but that is that. No lottery will allow you to win, say, a lifetime best-selling drug patent.
Furthermore, how is RL relevant to game balance?
EVE's economics and business models don't work like RL analogs... Just like there are no jump gates in orbit around Saturn
And I have already made clear what I do advocate elsewhere in this thread. I advocate the removal of ISK-printer status from the currently existing "good" BPOs. Whether it will be done by buffing Invention, BPC drops from belt rats, conversion of all Vaga BPOs into rechargeable BPCs is largely irrelevant. But ISK printing should be stopped once and for all.
There are hundreds of anti t2 threads out there give the gal a break:P
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.03.02 10:16:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Mortania
No, it wasn't being vague, it was a concession that you had made up your mind and nothing I could say would convince you otherwise.
Well, calling people "ignorant" right on the subject line doesn't really help convincing anyone. "Ad hominem"
Ignorance is often confused with stupidity. Though closely related (like the separate but closely related arguements in my multiple threads), aren't the same. Ignorant
Additionally, I signalled out no person. People are welcome to accept the appellation as they see fit.
And that is what we called "flamebait". I'm not falling for it.
Please accept the fact that we don't want T2 producers in game. Why? The reasons have been heavily discussed already. You said it's a crapy BPO? Then deal with the loss like everybody else. People have lost more in ganked freighters and the world haven't stopped. |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.03.02 10:23:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Shameless Avenger on 02/03/2007 10:21:17
Originally by: Mortania
Do you advocate for the removal of real world lotteries as well? People love em! ...
The money generated with the local RL lottery around here made it possible for my son to get a brand new school, fully equiped. He loves that school. That's why people can live with it in RL.
Now what have you done for the comunity with the earnings from T2? Nothing I bet. |
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Drachma Golea
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.03.02 10:27:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Drachma Golea on 02/03/2007 10:24:01 Mortania, who and whatever people say in your stated case, all kudo's go to you
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Redbad
Minmatar Be Inspired Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 11:32:00 -
[72]
Mortania, you are the most evil school teacher in all of New Eden! Looking forward to see your (long) log of shame soon.
join us today! |
Redbad
Minmatar Be Inspired Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 11:32:00 -
[73]
Mortania, you are the most evil school teacher in all of New Eden! Looking forward to see your (long) log of shame soon.
join us today! |
Hazurr
Amarr Angelic Industries Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.02 15:15:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Hazurr on 02/03/2007 15:19:29 Mail sent, im looking forward to my bpc
Wait? deliver some of it to you? i gotta get the skills and stuff first, how about you give me an 8-run one? __________________________________________________________________
Pessimism is the foundation of survival
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Drexciyian
Blackdog Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.02 15:17:00 -
[75]
I turnt one of those down from my RnD agent bout a month or so ago, wonder if its the same one
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Malcanis
Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.02 16:22:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.
It is purely a supply issue. If T2 Hammerhead BPOs were like T1 Hammerheads and anyone could purchase them, then this much profit wouldn't be generated. Increase the supply. Don't break the contract of permenance that CCP has created with their long term members.
So you'd be quite happy if, say, 1-run T2 BPCs were to become available from NPC stations in the same way that T1 BPOs are? That's not "punishing" you - you still have your BPO after all, and it would increase supply a fair bit (although not infinitely, since only a certain number of blueprints are spawned at each station per day IIRC).
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:03:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
But having someone make 2 million from EACH Hammerhead II sold with NO risk, NO grind, and NO effort forever and ever is WRONG.
It is purely a supply issue. If T2 Hammerhead BPOs were like T1 Hammerheads and anyone could purchase them, then this much profit wouldn't be generated. Increase the supply. Don't break the contract of permenance that CCP has created with their long term members.
So you'd be quite happy if, say, 1-run T2 BPCs were to become available from NPC stations in the same way that T1 BPOs are? That's not "punishing" you - you still have your BPO after all, and it would increase supply a fair bit (although not infinitely, since only a certain number of blueprints are spawned at each station per day IIRC).
Indeed, I would.
That's one of the many points I have been making in my various posts. Supply is the issue, not the lottery or current BPOs. There is such a supply lack right now that there is no need to remove or change existing BPOs, despite the desires of some jealous few, that everyone can and should have access to T2 in more and varied ways that suits their play style. I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread:
Originally by: Mortania
Make invention nearly as good as BPO (and better in some ways). Create many different ways for people to gain T2 BPCs and BPOs. Let those who like to Rat get T2 through ratting (rare drops). Let those who like to Produce/Build get T2 through invention/exploration. Let those who like to Mission run get T2 through lotteries (RP purchases of BPCs or lottries of BPOs (like now!)). Let those who like to Pirate get T2 through blowing up/ransoming those above. Let those who like to PvP get T2 from the market.
Let's create gameplay and access for everyone. The lottery and existing BPOs are NOT the problem. The problem is that they only provide one access point (two if you argue purchase on the resale market as one), for T2 production. Make MORE ways.
---
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:05:00 -
[78]
Oh to clear up some confusion:
No, we didn't just obtain this BPO now, we've had it for years now. No, I'm not bitter about having the BPO.
The purpose of this thread is to give away free* BPCs so that anyone who wants to can experience the billions making and AFK riches of T2 production. ---
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Corvinus Drax
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:12:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:12:35 Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:10:14 I'm just recent to the game, so apologies if this suggestion has been made before in regards to the T2 BPO debate. But:
Why not give invention a chance to produce a T2 BPO?
I imagine loads of people will toss their hat in the ring to invent the "cash cow" T2 BPOs if they could. Wouldn't this also be a method to allow for a constant supply of T2 BPOs and increase competition in this market?
The lottery has people up in arms because there is no reliable way to predict what BPO you may get if you get one at all. Similarly, invention produces BPCs with less than competitive values. This would solve that issue, as you would only be 'working' for a BPO you were interested in producing. Also, make it the only method of obtaining a T2 BPO. RPs can be used to obtain the datacores for invention as I understand it, so long time research agent runners would have an initial edge on those new to the game.
I'm not advocating making it an easy process. But allowing for more competition on a level playing field (BPO vs BPO) can only be a good thing for the market right?
This way you wouldn't need to take the BPOs away from those people who already have them (which would incite my ire if I had one), and you would also be increasing the supply at the same time. Experienced industrialists would have an edge on new producers, research time already done, logistics sorted and such. But the advantage wouldn't be an immutable one. Given enough time, it will sort itself out.
*edited for spelling*
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:18:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Corvinus Drax Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:12:35 Edited by: Corvinus Drax on 02/03/2007 17:10:14 I'm just recent to the game, so apologies if this suggestion has been made before in regards to the T2 BPO debate. But:
Why not give invention a chance to produce a T2 BPO?
I imagine loads of people will toss their hat in the ring to invent the "cash cow" T2 BPOs if they could. Wouldn't this also be a method to allow for a constant supply of T2 BPOs and increase competition in this market?
The lottery has people up in arms because there is no reliable way to predict what BPO you may get if you get one at all. Similarly, invention produces BPCs with less than competitive values. This would solve that issue, as you would only be 'working' for a BPO you were interested in producing. Also, make it the only method of obtaining a T2 BPO. RPs can be used to obtain the datacores for invention as I understand it, so long time research agent runners would have an initial edge on those new to the game.
I'm not advocating making it an easy process. But allowing for more competition on a level playing field (BPO vs BPO) can only be a good thing for the market right?
This way you wouldn't need to take the BPOs away from those people who already have them (which would incite my ire if I had one), and you would also be increasing the supply at the same time. Experienced industrialists would have an edge on new producers, research time already done, logistics sorted and such. But the advantage wouldn't be an immutable one. Given enough time, it will sort itself out.
*edited for spelling*
I think that would be a great idea, personally. It would need to be unpredictable, itself. Personally, I'd love it if invention where a more static guarantee, like production, with much higher barriers of entry, and then as you suggest, a random very small percentage chance of making a BPO, too. ---
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Corvinus Drax
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:26:00 -
[81]
If what I suggested were implemented in such a manner, it could also be applied in the exact same way for T3 modules and ships if/when they are introduced. Simply, invent off of a T2 BPC that you have, in the same way it is done for T2, with higher requirements of course. Current T2 producers will still have a leg-up in the race, and they should given their time investment so far. But others new to the game could get off the starting line given the time.
In such a system, you could increase the chances of invention producing a BPC (with some sane attributes), with a marginal chance of hitting a BPO. Slow and steady increase in BPO supply, which will bring competition and the market will do the rest.
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:27:00 -
[82]
please contract a few of those for me !
if it killed titans it can be good ------
Relaxed corp recruiting |
Rowdy Yates
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:40:00 -
[83]
A truly random BPO lottery was a great idea.
However cheating devs killed it.
Shame really. It reproduced the real world effect of "haves" and "have nots" nicely.
(Background: On my main I have one crappy tech II cruise missile bpo. I only build cruise missile for myself and my corp mates and I don't do that very often. I sold one batch of 5000 in Rens a long time ago at a loss. I like having my tech II bpo, but it's nothing great.)
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Rowdy Yates
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:40:00 -
[84]
A truly random BPO lottery was a great idea.
However cheating devs killed it.
Shame really. It reproduced the real world effect of "haves" and "have nots" nicely.
(Background: On my main I have one crappy tech II cruise missile bpo. I only build cruise missile for myself and my corp mates and I don't do that very often. I sold one batch of 5000 in Rens a long time ago at a loss. I like having my tech II bpo, but it's nothing great.)
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Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2007.03.02 18:05:00 -
[85]
To be honest, I think it is sad that the bpo lottery goes. I think it was one of the fairest means availeble at the time to introduce limited t2 production. I do however agree with the op that t2 production needs to be opened up to more people. This does not equate to free (or even expensive) bpo for everyone
Pleace make t2 bpc readely availeble trough Invention (needs improvement), missioning and ratting (so every major group/playstyle in eve has an accespoint) but keep a limit on the amount of bpo, and keep an eye on what happens with t2 so it does not ever become as common as t1
For those people that missed it, EVE is a game about interaction. Having a limited number of labs, factories, planets, moons, systems or whatever other resource is a way in wich this interaction is enforced. and it is also what gives value to obtaining it.
By what ever means the bpo end up being introduced next time (supposing more t2 or even t3 bpo will be introduced). I hope it will be at least as fair as the lottery has been (Ignoring the recent incedent as acording to the words of some posters on this tread, stating their opinion that worthless bpo should be ignored for these arguments. And we all know t2 ammo bpo certainly fall within that categogory)
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Almarez
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Posted - 2007.03.02 18:45:00 -
[86]
How many does each run make?
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Sarf
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Posted - 2007.03.02 20:41:00 -
[87]
I would like to throw out another idea for bringing costs down and increasing supply. Make the build times half what they are now. This will double the supply and there fore decrease price ans a over supply happens.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.02 20:57:00 -
[88]
I think it's ironic that the point the OP is trying to make, that T2 BPO's are not simply ISK printing machines, is correct, but the argument and practical experiement offered are horribly flawed. --------------------
Verone for President of EVE |
Dunpeal
Caldari M'8'S
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Posted - 2007.03.02 21:08:00 -
[89]
Originally by: James Duar Wow! It would almost seem like you're trying to straw-man the position that a T2 BPO is an ISK printing machine by pointing out how your's isn't.
But wait a minute! No one uses smartbombs to start with! Everyone wants a faster, better, stronger cruiser! Maybe there would be a huge mark up on a limited supply item which everyone wants! Could it possibly be, that in fact there's a strong differential in the value of T2 items based on their usages and desirability as T1 items, and that perhaps the existence of T2 BPOs that are not profitable doesn't change the problem cited with T2, that it gives certain individuals, by chance, huge wealth possibilities?
No of course not! Because that type of thinking is completely irrational
/Signed
http://draken.com.sapo.pt/Backstory.htm |
BobFromMarketing
Amarr The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.03.02 21:34:00 -
[90]
Ill take this challenge, but not with the BPO you listed. I'd like to do it with Covert Ops Cloak ^_^ And heck ill even up the ante. I bet I can make 50+ a week and deliver 10 to the owner a week.
And I wont be selling them for 70 freakin mil
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