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Lugh Crow-Slave
2803
   |
Posted - 2016.06.12 21:35:04 -
[1] - Quote
if there is going to be a 7 day unanchore timer then the structure should not just be scoopable by anyone people have real lives and things could come up in 7 days not a big issue for large groups but can cost small ones alot. Not to mention in HS it becomes a game of who can scoop first and not much a small group can do to try and gank several well tanked ships
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4469
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Posted - 2016.06.12 21:37:28 -
[2] - Quote
Why should citadels have completely different mechanics to everything else? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2803
|
Posted - 2016.06.12 21:48:54 -
[3] - Quote
because they already do.... and i explained that in the op
Citadel worm hole tax
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Do Little
Virgin Plc
Evictus.
297
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Posted - 2016.06.12 21:59:35 -
[4] - Quote
I'd be more worried about a wardec - you can't run, you can't hide, a small corp can't defend and you advertise your vulnerability for a week. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2803
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Posted - 2016.06.12 22:07:07 -
[5] - Quote
war decs are not that much of an issue though and you can defend against those either by yourself or with mercs
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4469
|
Posted - 2016.06.12 22:08:24 -
[6] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:because they already do.... and i explained that in the op
You just said they're expensive. You didn't say why that's a bad thing.
Personally I don't think they should be scoopable at all. If you're going to drop one, commit to it.
That said, do you have a justification for this besides 'they're expensive'? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2803
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Posted - 2016.06.12 22:12:09 -
[7] - Quote
... did you miss the part about how they have a 7 day timer something that can make it inconvenient for small groups where the majority of their players have families and full time jobs?
so say you are supposed to be the one to scoop it you made sure you would have that time off. then last minute you get called into work. can't get anyone else to go scoop it because they all have work and families and cant get on. now you are down 2-22b
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4469
|
Posted - 2016.06.12 22:15:36 -
[8] - Quote
So? Everything has an unanchor timer.
Commit to your citadel. If you can't cover the end of your unanchor timer, don't unanchor in the first place, don't expect the mechanics to change to cover for you.
Your corp has four hundred members, your alliance 541. if you can't find one to be online in your prime time, that's not a gameplay issue. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2803
|
Posted - 2016.06.12 22:24:57 -
[9] - Quote
O.o this has nothing to do with my corp/alliance
and yes everything does have an unanchor timer and i'm glad you live a life style where you can know nothing will happen that would impede you from getting on 7 days down the line not every one has that luxury.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4469
|
Posted - 2016.06.12 22:40:52 -
[10] - Quote
If you can't commit to covering your unanchor, don't unanchor. It is as simple as that. If your corp is so small that you cannot have one trustworthy person online in your prime time, you probably shouldn't have a citadel.
(For your information, I have a full time job. Fixed hours, so...it's really not hard to know when I'm going to be available.)
Why should you be able to scoop the thing without any risk? Literally everything else that can be unanchored can be stolen. You still have not provided a reason beyond 'it's expensive', you need to do an awful lot better. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2803
|
Posted - 2016.06.12 23:09:43 -
[11] - Quote
so once pos are out small groups should just not use structures?
as for risk i have no issue with the secondary can being scoopable by all. but even if you can be online a small group will have a hard time scooping before another interested party in HS
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4469
|
Posted - 2016.06.12 23:15:39 -
[12] - Quote
...No, small groups should just consider either not unanchoring, or not scooping at a time they cannot be online. Why is that hard to comprehend? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3287
|
Posted - 2016.06.13 02:14:26 -
[13] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:so once pos are out small groups should just not use structures?
as for risk i have no issue with the secondary can being scoopable by all. but even if you can be online a small group will have a hard time scooping before another interested party in HS
Yes, that is basically what CCP are saying with Citadels the way they actually implemented them.
All this was raised during the planning process and CCP fluffed around, never committed to details, told us it would be solved, then didn't solve it.
Citadels were about Null alliances getting more awesome toys to play with, WH's & Low get some carry over benefits, and small corps, especially small highsec corps are just screwed even more, just like most of the other expansions recently have done.
And Danika. The whole point is that unless you are a true precog, seeing a week into the future is kinda impossible for most of us. Nothing in EVE has ever had this long an unanchor timer, and the highsec game of spam the scoop button at the last second is silly also. |
Dolorous Tremmens
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
161
|
Posted - 2016.06.13 05:02:09 -
[14] - Quote
This is a massive change for every level of security in the game, and these things should have a bit of planning as to where they are placed. If you put it in the "wrong" place, it shouldn't matter. These things should not be conveniences you can pack up and move in ANY amount of time or be removed by anything other than destruction.
Or perhaps, just maybe something can be done, something involving a magic beam of some sort that invokes a silly game that levels the playing field. You know, so the little guy can win.
Get some Eve. Make it yours.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Mercenary Coalition
3053
|
Posted - 2016.06.13 06:01:40 -
[15] - Quote
Have we really come to a point where "right-click spam fest" is being defended as gameplay?
It would be one thing if you had to defend it from destruction, but that doesn't seem to be the problem here. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2586
|
Posted - 2016.06.13 18:46:04 -
[16] - Quote
I agree that this mechanic needs to be changed. Having to plan for the long term is one thing, but having to plan to definitely be online a week in the future and race anyone else in something that comes down to a server tick is just plain stupid. It's obviously not much of a problem outside of high sec, because I can just kill those people with impunity, but in high sec it is an issue. Whether you like it or not, many people live in high sec and their gameplay should not suck either.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Iain Cariaba
3099
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Posted - 2016.06.13 20:34:33 -
[17] - Quote
Question, does scooping a citadel that does not belong to you give a suspect flag?
I'm guessing not, but would this be an acceptable compromise? It would still allow your citadel to be stolen, but when it's stolen, you could actually do something about it.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2586
|
Posted - 2016.06.14 01:58:36 -
[18] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Question, does scooping a citadel that does not belong to you give a suspect flag?
I'm guessing not, but would this be an acceptable compromise? It would still allow your citadel to be stolen, but when it's stolen, you could actually do something about it.
And by do something about it, you mean you could blow it up inside their wreck. Not sure that's great gameplay either, but it is better than we have now.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2137
|
Posted - 2016.06.14 02:31:38 -
[19] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Have we really come to a point where "right-click spam fest" is being defended as gameplay?
It would be one thing if you had to defend it from destruction, but that doesn't seem to be the problem here.
This may be the only source of income (scooping other folks citadels) for some very very large non space holding alliances  |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
873
|
Posted - 2016.06.14 14:13:36 -
[20] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So? Everything has an unanchor timer..
Yes every structure has an unanchor timer, how many of them have a seven day timer?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2814
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Posted - 2016.06.17 03:21:32 -
[21] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:...No, small groups should just consider either not unanchoring, or not scooping at a time they cannot be online. Why is that hard to comprehend?
....
again 7 days prior you are pretty sure you can be online when it comes out but last minute RL gets in the way. For a large group who can have several people online at any given time this is not a big deal for a small group it is.
how is that hard to comprehend?
Citadel worm hole tax
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darkneko
Black Cat mining Inc.
Khione's Dominion
22
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Posted - 2016.06.17 03:34:24 -
[22] - Quote
I would love to see them not be scoop-able by everyone but it is a big change. Instead why not have another time limit? Such as 24 hours where only your corp can scoop it up. That way if some small life event happens( like your wife yelling at you to take out the trash) it won't completely ruin your game but let's other ppl steal it if you forget or something. It will also prevent people who have the time from waiting around a citadel spamming the scoop button which will happen since they can also take 7 days to plan on stealing it instead of getting lucky with the old 15~40 min poss takedown. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2815
|
Posted - 2016.06.17 04:53:15 -
[23] - Quote
That would work as well
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dolorous Tremmens
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
162
|
Posted - 2016.06.17 05:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
How about after the 7 days CONCORD scoops it for you then charges you for littering, you get an hour free then get fined for every hour it is not picked up from a concord impound lot (up to 10% of the citadels mineral/component value)and after 4 hrs it goes on auction for some make believe charity, like "new glasses for unemployed hipster civilians" or something, starting bids at 50%.
After all, should the highsec pillowfort be blown up, your stuff gets spacemagic'd to somewhere safe. A citadel being spacemagiced into a concord station shouldn't be a big deal.
There you go, you get your citadel back as long as someone is awake and willing to run to the police, and get a grace period of another 4 hours, which should be plenty after 7 days of waiting and planning to pick it up.
A twist to it is they leave you a littering ticket accessible only to your entire corp, and whoever picks up that ticket has to do the run to the impound lot. It'll be about 13000m3 to prevent most instawarp and cov-ops cloaky ships from making the trip, and allow enemies/wardeccers/gankers a chance at screwing you over, with the regular 50% drop rate. If dropped, it may still be picked up only by your corp. If lost, well you had a chance.
Yay, content for all, and only you can pick it up! Oh, and make it vulenrable to booshing, a fun game of keepaway would be entertaining for everyone!
Get some Eve. Make it yours.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2815
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Posted - 2016.06.17 05:44:52 -
[25] - Quote
... 4 hrs would not be enough to fix the issue
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dolorous Tremmens
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
162
|
Posted - 2016.06.17 06:24:33 -
[26] - Quote
7 days of warning, and the entire corp has a 1 hour of grace with an additional 4 hour window for something only they can claim.
While it is quibbling I might not have been clear, the total is 5 hours.
Highsec is not large, and something like the "ticket" can be scooped by a JF and moved very far, very fast.
You also get to "set" the window by the timing of when you start the unanchoring process. After the 7 days you are getting the time window of an ADM 3.6 sov capture(1 hr of grace+4 hours= 5 hours), a median which is quite a generous considering no highsec dweller has to work the systems for the ADMs.
Now also keep in mind this is something I threw out in fun, if such a system were implemented it would mess over low and null alot more in terms of conflict driving, and I would get lynched for suggesting it. However it is more than reasonable when compared to the "first to scoop" mechanic we have currently.
Get some Eve. Make it yours.
|
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
Apocalypse Now.
265
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Posted - 2016.06.17 11:35:36 -
[27] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So? Everything has an unanchor timer.
Commit to your citadel. If you can't cover the end of your unanchor timer, don't unanchor in the first place, don't expect the mechanics to change to cover for you.
Your corp has four hundred members, your alliance 541. if you can't find one to be online in your prime time, that's not a gameplay issue.
Not everything that can anchor can be unachored.
I am for the, once you deploy it, your stuck with it. Time to be ****s deep and pray you don't get crabs.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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darkneko
Black Cat mining Inc.
Khione's Dominion
22
|
Posted - 2016.06.17 13:17:03 -
[28] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So? Everything has an unanchor timer.
Commit to your citadel. If you can't cover the end of your unanchor timer, don't unanchor in the first place, don't expect the mechanics to change to cover for you.
Your corp has four hundred members, your alliance 541. if you can't find one to be online in your prime time, that's not a gameplay issue. Not everything that can anchor can be unachored. I am for the, once you deploy it, your stuck with it. Time to be ****s deep and pray you don't get crabs.
aside from poco what else cant be unanchored?
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Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
2924
|
Posted - 2016.06.17 13:34:02 -
[29] - Quote
darkneko wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So? Everything has an unanchor timer.
Commit to your citadel. If you can't cover the end of your unanchor timer, don't unanchor in the first place, don't expect the mechanics to change to cover for you.
Your corp has four hundred members, your alliance 541. if you can't find one to be online in your prime time, that's not a gameplay issue. Not everything that can anchor can be unachored. I am for the, once you deploy it, your stuck with it. Time to be ****s deep and pray you don't get crabs. aside from poco what else cant be unanchored?
Outpost? |
darkneko
Black Cat mining Inc.
Khione's Dominion
22
|
Posted - 2016.06.17 13:41:28 -
[30] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:darkneko wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So? Everything has an unanchor timer.
Commit to your citadel. If you can't cover the end of your unanchor timer, don't unanchor in the first place, don't expect the mechanics to change to cover for you.
Your corp has four hundred members, your alliance 541. if you can't find one to be online in your prime time, that's not a gameplay issue. Not everything that can anchor can be unachored. I am for the, once you deploy it, your stuck with it. Time to be ****s deep and pray you don't get crabs. aside from poco what else cant be unanchored? Outpost?
you mean those trillion isk things that require sov, have way better refining yield/built in manufacturing, dont require fuel and wont be replacing pos as the new structure system? those outposts
Not to mention 100% indestructible even if they can be stolen. |
Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
2925
|
Posted - 2016.06.17 13:50:24 -
[31] - Quote
darkneko wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:darkneko wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote:Danika Princip wrote:So? Everything has an unanchor timer.
Commit to your citadel. If you can't cover the end of your unanchor timer, don't unanchor in the first place, don't expect the mechanics to change to cover for you.
Your corp has four hundred members, your alliance 541. if you can't find one to be online in your prime time, that's not a gameplay issue. Not everything that can anchor can be unachored. I am for the, once you deploy it, your stuck with it. Time to be ****s deep and pray you don't get crabs. aside from poco what else cant be unanchored? Outpost? you mean those trillion isk things that require sov, have way better refining yield/built in manufacturing, dont require fuel and wont be replacing pos as the new structure system? those outposts Not to mention 100% indestructible even if they can be stolen.
You asked for something that can't be un-anchored, I provided an example. I'm not sure if you can un-anchor TCU and i-hub so I went with the one I knew about...
The fact that outpost are the closest comparison to citadels also kind of make the answer legit since we are discussing the possibility of making them permanent anchor. They sit somewhere between a POS and an outpost so them having the anchor rules of one instead of the other is not completely impossible. |
darkneko
Black Cat mining Inc.
Khione's Dominion
22
|
Posted - 2016.06.17 14:01:59 -
[32] - Quote
true they are more like an outpost but they will be removing pos at some point once all the new structures are added meaning that citadels are replacing the current pos, i know that its not a problem right now but once pos are gone people will be wanting to move their citadels. however no one really knows what all the new structures are so maybe they are going to add a good lower end structure close to the current pos system
The fact remains though that a 7 day timer that anyone can scoop up your citadel at the end of is quite ridiculous considering people have real lives and cant always plan that far ahead to up to the min. even a few hours grace period would be accatable |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
877
|
Posted - 2016.06.18 14:39:44 -
[33] - Quote
darkneko wrote:I would love to see them not be scoop-able by everyone but it is a big change. Instead why not have another time limit? Such as 24 hours where only your corp can scoop it up. That way if some small life event happens( like your wife yelling at you to take out the trash) it won't completely ruin your game but let's other ppl steal it if you forget or something. .
A time window when only your corp can scoop it does nothing to solve the issues surrounding the 7 day unanchor timer. You could extend this idea from 24 hours to seven days, we still could not guarantee that we would have someone online to scoop it before it was vulnerable to theft.
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:7 days of warning, and the entire corp has a 1 hour of grace with an additional 4 hour window for something only they can claim.
While it is quibbling I might not have been clear, the total is 5 hours.
You are still missing the major point here. It is not the time of day that the structure unanchors that is the source of the problem, it is in fact the seven day unanchor period relative to the unpredictable nature of their life in the short term (7-10 days or so) that is the source of the problem for many small groups. |
Dolorous Tremmens
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
162
|
Posted - 2016.06.18 16:14:23 -
[34] - Quote
Oh, for the delay its seems you can blame on vulnerability windows, nullsec, fozziesov and the adm's. The unanchoring delay is there so you can't tear it down after receiving a wardec like you can a pos. The citadel has that vulnerability window, which is a very small block of time every week, 3 hours i believe.
3 hours in a week long wardec is not very much, and is half the "race period" i suggested. While RL happens, citadels are meant for groups large enough to overcome the RL problems of just a few of their members. This is one of the reasons I think they should not be unanchorable at all, and only removed by destruction ( oo another eve Profession: wrecking/demolition crews).
Now, another reason for the unanchoring delay, as i mentioned earlier is Nullsec and ADM's. If a null group has done a good job of work raising adms, it takes that much longer to anchor a citadel, 24+(ADM level x 24)hours. The unanchoring time reflects the longest time it takes to put up a structure anywhere.
If you are a small group that conceivably could not put the time in for the unanchoring timer, you should not be anchoring one. CCP will be coming out with other smaller structures "soon," they have just catered to the medium and large groups first.
Now I've partially addressed the reasoning behind the long delay, and put forth a suggestion on how to avoid the topic line, I'll continue with my bad idea and reasoning. If you, as a corporation or alliance, cannot afford one person in a DST to be at a place and time with 7 days notice after pre-planning its deconstruction, you should not be having/putting one up in the first place.
Also, i will point out that entry cost of a citadel is trivial to the size of group it is meant to cater to. Smaller guys wanting push cart/catering truck "citadels" will get their stuff I hope. I've been wanting cornerstore/gas station/vending machine structures for a long time and I hope the little guys get them.
Get some Eve. Make it yours.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3302
|
Posted - 2016.06.18 17:06:35 -
[35] - Quote
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
3 hours in a week long wardec is not very much, and is half the "race period" i suggested. While RL happens, citadels are meant for groups large enough to overcome the RL problems of just a few of their members. This is one of the reasons I think they should not be unanchorable at all, and only removed by destruction ( oo another eve Profession: wrecking/demolition crews).
No, they aren't.
M Citadels are specifically listed by CCP as designed for solo or small corps.
We can debate if CCP have actually achieved their design goals, I think they failed miserably since the force multiplier effect of anything but an XL Citadel in Null/WH sucks, but that is what they listed them as designed for. And as such claiming that 'your group should be large enough to have massive redundancy' is silly.
And even if you can be present at the exact time, the fact that 1 second of lag can allow someone else to steal your citadel is silly.
The period of a few hours where only the unanchoring corp can scoop the structure after which it becomes a free for all is the best solution. You can't just forget about it forever, but a bit of traffic delaying you getting home, or some overtime at work isn't going to cripple you for sure. |
darkneko
Black Cat mining Inc.
Khione's Dominion
22
|
Posted - 2016.06.19 21:46:42 -
[36] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
3 hours in a week long wardec is not very much, and is half the "race period" i suggested. While RL happens, citadels are meant for groups large enough to overcome the RL problems of just a few of their members. This is one of the reasons I think they should not be unanchorable at all, and only removed by destruction ( oo another eve Profession: wrecking/demolition crews).
No, they aren't. M Citadels are specifically listed by CCP as designed for solo or small corps. We can debate if CCP have actually achieved their design goals, I think they failed miserably since the force multiplier effect of anything but an XL Citadel in Null/WH sucks, but that is what they listed them as designed for. And as such claiming that 'your group should be large enough to have massive redundancy' is silly. And even if you can be present at the exact time, the fact that 1 second of lag can allow someone else to steal your citadel is silly. The period of a few hours where only the unanchoring corp can scoop the structure after which it becomes a free for all is the best solution. You can't just forget about it forever, but a bit of traffic delaying you getting home, or some overtime at work isn't going to cripple you for sure.
If that's your argument just give a "no scoop" timer or something to the smaller ones |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1178
|
Posted - 2016.06.20 10:47:34 -
[37] - Quote
citadels are OP now yet you are crying for a buff and risk removal?
If you cant scoop your citadel and get ganked in process or citadel gets stolen.. -> GOOD FOR THE GAME!
Might be one less corporation wanting to deal with citadels in future -> one less citadel deployed in eve. |
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